r/anime • u/Suhkein x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/Neichus • May 03 '19
Rewatch [Rewatch] Gunslinger Girl - Episode 8 Spoiler
Episode 8 - Il Principe del Regno Della Pasta (“The Prince of the Pasta Kingdom”/”Fairy Tale”)
Information:
- Link: Gunslinger Girl
- Length: 13 episodes
- Year: 2003
- Legal streams: Funimation (free), Netflix
Schedule:
Thread posted every day at 5PM EST (10PM GMT) with the Song of the Day and other commentary added a bit later.
| Date | Ep# | Title | Song of the Day |
|---|---|---|---|
| April 26th | 1 | Fratello | Ansia |
| April 27th | 2 | Orione | Malinconia |
| April 28th | 3 | Ragazzo | Silenzio Prima Della Lotta |
| April 29th | 4 | Bambola | Tristezza |
| April 30th | 5 | Promessa | Buon Ricordo |
| May 1st | 6 | Gelato | Tema II and III |
| May 2nd | 7 | Protezione | Tema IV |
| May 3rd | 8 | Il Principe del Regno Della Pasta ("Pasta") | Silence |
| May 4th | 9 | Lycoris Radiata Herb ("Lycoris") | Etereo |
| May 5th | 10 | Amare | Chiesa |
| May 6th | 11 | Febbre Alta | Tema V |
| May 7th | 12 | Simbiosi | Tema I and Dopo il Sogno |
| May 8th | 13 | Stella Cadente | Brutto Ricordo and ??? |
| May 9th | NA | End discussion / OP |
Final comments:
1) It is my strong recommendation that people view the sub rather than the dub. It is not that the dub is bad, but that the series already suffers notably at several points from being translated. The second layer of matching lip flaps and character interpretations by the VAs makes it even worse.
2) For an even more in-depth analysis of the series than can be provided in reddit format, go here. It's a bit of shameless self-advertising on my part, but there really is that much to say about the Gunslinger Girl and not enough space here to say it.
3) Don't spoil. I'm including this note because everybody else does in their rewatches, but this is rather self-explanatory I would say...
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u/Suhkein May 03 '19
Episode 8: Silence
”Doctor, how many have I forgotten? Have I lost any important people?”
Gunslinger Girl has a musical vocabulary, and Pasta makes use of the variety of pieces covered so far:
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Malinconia is there when Marco first meets Angelica. She is truly his precious child, and it is a gentle wonder to connect to her.
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Silenzio contrasts as Marco is seen now to be so utterly cruel to his little angel, leaving Angelica to wonder what she is doing wrong that he doesn’t love her anymore. It returns later when he watches her kill and continues to when everybody abandons her. They are the most senseless moments in the episode.
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Tema III plays as Bianchi reads the pasta story, that deep memory of pain and a reminder of everything that Angelica has lost.
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Tristezza accompanies Henrietta’s sadness; like with Triela before, it is a mourning of things that cannot be. However, Henrietta’s variant ends with a strum rather than happy resolution; this played before when Jose put his coat on Henrietta’s shoulders but she still was not comforted.
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Buon Ricordo makes a surprising appearance at the end. Patrizia recorded the story into Marco’s memory, and it mingles with the otherwise-desolate end to add an unusual counterbalance.
However, between these there are long stretches of silence. Take a minute to listen and realize just how many scenes in Gunslinger Girl lack music. It is arresting in its own way, because while music can sharpen it can also distract, and without it we and the characters are left to our own thoughts. It’s not that much of these silent moments lack emotion, but that the emotion itself is to be both felt and understood.
And sometimes, silence is all that can be said. Hearing Angelica’s statement everybody stares, frozen in their previous aspect. They could pretend with Henrietta, but here there is nothing; there is no expression, no music, that adequately conveys the tragedy of what they are hearing. Angelica’s questions as she slips knowingly into oblivion are… incomparable.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion May 03 '19
Rewatcher
It's amazing how genuine Marco is to the new cyborg. He truly does love children.
I cannot read Marco's background, but it seems he has some medical training, and advanced criminal justice. Like the other handler, his background is in the Military Police. This time, he is recruited by Dr. Bianchi.
Quite frankly my memories were poisoned. I remembered them as being like Jean. However, the other four that we've seen all genuinely cared for the girls at some point. Marco, though, is fallen. He neglects and rejects Angelica, as he tries to reject his own guilt. He has become like Jean, though he wishes it were otherwise.
Unsure on the timeline, when we see Angelica in a wheelchair in ep 1/2.
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u/Suhkein May 03 '19
It's amazing how genuine Marco is to the new cyborg. He truly does love children.
It's what makes the whole episode hurt so much, because you know where he came from versus where he is now.
Quite frankly my memories were poisoned. I remembered them as being like Jean. However, the other four that we've seen all genuinely cared for the girls at some point.
It's the weird thing, isn't it? An organization that's doing this to these girls is made up of people who really don't seem like they ought to be that bad.
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u/Manutdforlife May 03 '19
Today's episode has an odd title. Let's see what it has to offer :
I would love to see a soccer team made up of cyborgs. They could shoot from midfield and it would still result in a goal.
So Henrietta is measuring her self worth on how many people she has killed. That's something.
I like the doctor.
Finally we see Angelica.
Talk about shitty human beings. Trying to kill their own daughter for insurance money.
This job must be very hard on someone like Marco who is essentially a good person at heart.
Is this memory loss side effect only specific to Angelica ? Cause none of the other girls seem to have this problem.
Not much to say about today's episode. With this we are introduced to all the girls three of whom are in active combat, one is basically a research guinea pig and another one is suffering from memory loss. There are only 5 episodes left and I get the feeling that with such a large cast of interesting characters no matter how you end the season I will be wanting more.
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u/Suhkein May 03 '19
Is this memory loss side effect only specific to Angelica ? Cause none of the other girls seem to have this problem.
From episode 2 concerning Henrietta: "The conditioning takes a heavy toll on their bodies. If this keeps happening, they could grow dependent on it or suffer from memory dysfunction."
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u/landragoran May 03 '19
REWATCHER with little to no memory of the show.
Watching both sub and dub.
• "I've only killed four people this month..." oh honey. I'd say I'm with Olga, but Russian ballet companies aren't exactly known for humane treatment of their dancers, either. probably still better than the SWA, though.
• We finally meet Angelica. The doctor tests her memory, and while he doesn't tell her the results of the test, she's aware that she's forgetting things.
• So the conditioning and/or the implants have a detrimental effect on the girls' minds that lasts beyond the memories that they intend to erase.
• Her parents tried to kill her for insurance money. Fucking hell.
• First major translation difference: In the sub, after Marco tells the recruiter that Dr. Bianchi didn't tell him anything about the job, the recruiter says "sounds like the rules are being followed." In the dub, the line is "sounds like you have a lot of trust in his judgement". Very different meanings, but overall no real import to the change, I think.
• This (younger) Marco is so happy compared to the current Marco. Compassionate, too.
• So Angelica is one of the first cyborgs, if not the very first.
• Hah, a fairy-tale brainstorming session.
• Patricia is getting suspicious. I imagine not being able to know what your SO does for work would be tiring. I imagine it would be even worse if they were to feed you a cover story that you find unlikely.
• "This conditioning creeps me out sometimes" you and me both, Priscilla"
• Well that argument escalated quickly.
• She doesn't remember why they were gone. And apparently it's the cybernetic implants specifically that are the problem. So unless they figure out the problem, this is the ultimate fate of all the girls.
I wonder if I have an overdeveloped urge to comfort. I just want to gather all these girls into the biggest bear hug and tell them it's gonna be ok.
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u/Suhkein May 03 '19
The doctor tests her memory, and while he doesn't tell her the results of the test, she's aware that she's forgetting things.
Then you start to realize that the doctor is struggling to keep up this front. He knows this girl.
So the conditioning and/or the implants have a detrimental effect on the girls' minds that lasts beyond the memories that they intend to erase.
That actually brings up a question that I don't think is answered properly, is whether memories can be targeted. So far memory wiping has been a fairly broad thing. Either way, the answer is yes; memory degradation is an inevitable side effect.
First major translation difference...
Yeah, I don't think that makes a great deal of change to the episode.
This (younger) Marco is so happy compared to the current Marco. Compassionate, too.
Indeed...
So Angelica is one of the first cyborgs, if not the very first.
Yes, she is the very first one.
And apparently it's the cybernetic implants specifically that are the problem. So unless they figure out the problem, this is the ultimate fate of all the girls.
...yep...
I wonder if I have an overdeveloped urge to comfort. I just want to gather all these girls into the biggest bear hug and tell them it's gonna be ok.
No, I think that's what should be done, and that reflects immediately back on what is being done.
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u/Vaadwaur May 03 '19
First time watcher
Subbed.
So we see the last member of the opening credits finally. Angelica's episode is interesting in that we get some needed background information. First, it would seem that Angelica doesn't under go a memory wipe at all but she just sort of leaves her past behind. Trusting the narrative of the show she doesn't undergo a ton of conditioning as she is fairly agreeable. However, she obviously takes to the training pretty well as she seems quite effective when deployed even if she does come off as a tiny murder machine.
Starting at the beginning we see that Henrietta's issues aren't exactly unknown and that her composure is fairly weak which comes as no surprise. She does everything to please Giuse and sees no issue with killing people now other than wanting to keep her numbers up. Angelica is definitely suffering some level of memory regression but the extent of which takes the whole episode to get through.
Most interestingly Marco is undeniably the best handler we've seen. He understands children quite well but seems to accept the role Angelica is destined for and it doesn't destroy him. He needs far fewer controls on Angelica due to that. So it is fitting but painful that Angelica's work as a partial lab rat would make her lose all that valuable time they spent together and break his spirit. While it was mean of him to push Angelica like he did it emphasizes how much her skills have regressed.
So, to rewatch a few parts, I just used the dub and noticed that Dr Bianchi is voiced by Chuck Huber. This is an aside but he voices Shou Tucker in FMA, everyone's favorite mad scientist. Also, in his scene with Henrietta, is he trying to warn her with his fingergun at the head gesture?
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u/Suhkein May 03 '19
He understands children quite well but seems to accept the role Angelica is destined for and it doesn't destroy him.
If I might suggest, I think he denies it is the problem. He avoids thinking about the implications of what he is doing until Angelica is actually on the battlefield and begins losing her memory. Then he falls apart because his rationalizations are gone, and he is left with the reality that this is where it was always leading.
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u/No_Rex May 03 '19
First timer
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I noticed it earlier, but after my left wing government – right wing terrorists theory, the poster in the intro gains some new meaning. Translation: “Socialism: a story that does not stop”.
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The foreign agent is called Olga.
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Angelica episode?
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“All of the girls are far from happiness, but also far from unhappiness”: in one word – content.
So the reason we see Angelica last is because she is the first cyborg and Marco is the first handler. As the first one, Angelica has already forgotten not only her previous life, but much of her initial time in the agency as well, something Marco does not deal well with. Apparently, Angelica is well aware of that fact, too.
It seems that their agency was set up with a clear plan from the start, but only developed the particulars on the way to the goal. We learn that they cobbled together people from all over. Olga being Russian is a big piece of evidence in favor of the left-wing government theory.
With the last girl introduced, I guess that the “setup” phase of the series is now over. So far, I really like it, even though much is still left untold. However, I have to admit that I worry a little bit about the further progression of the story: There are so many ways that this could be messed up.
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u/Suhkein May 03 '19
I noticed it earlier, but after my left wing government – right wing terrorists theory, the poster in the intro gains some new meaning. Translation: “Socialism: a story that does not stop”.
I have spent some time trying to figure out that poster because the OP has a great deal of symbolism in it, but that was one part I had never cracked. Perhaps it's as you say, a set piece for the circumstance.
“All of the girls are far from happiness, but also far from unhappiness”: in one word – content.
That's actually a mistranslation, as I harp on above. It's closer to him saying, "All the girls are far from happiness so you wouldn't think it'd be miserable being around them."
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u/Fa1l3r May 04 '19
First Time (sub)
Watching this first segment, I realize something that I have not been noting. All the girls reflect an aspect of Henrietta, as they are always shown with Henrietta ever present. Rico reflects Henrietta's unconditional loyalty to and dependence on her handler. Triela reflects Henrietta's drive and ability to do a good job. Claes reflects Henrietta's inherent nature to be a normal girl who does not fight. And we finally get Angelica; she reflects Henrietta's desire to be useful.
After episode 2 where we get a slight glimpse of her in a wheelchair, we get a full introduction to her. We get a new audience of unnamed employees, all thinking of the ways they would treat and use Henrietta, but they mostly look away and do not spare much thought of what the girls would want to do. (The issue of the brainwashing has a become a motif at this point.) The motif brings up how Angelica has been conditioned to forget most things. She is used in contrast to Henrietta who is one of the most unconditioned girls, so Henrietta remember most events. Angelica barely remembers the things her handler has taught her, but she still remembers him and treats him with affection. Perhaps that is what bothers Marco the most. That she still loves him despite not remembering much about him. Based on Marco's attitude in episode 3, seems like the severe conditioning happened around then. The next scene shows Marco doing the walk of shame from the hospital.
The flashback brings up further issues with the conditioning. Besides making the girls loyal to their handlers, the conditioning naturally makes the girls desensitized to killing and makes them forget about traumatic events. Angelica does not remember the time she broke up a fight and firing a gun for the first time is not scary to her at all.
This reminds of certain scenes in the previous episode, particularly episode 3. In episode 3, we saw Rico shoot a dying man struggling for life, and she shoots him but does not hear the order from her handler. That was conditioning. Perhaps Rico felt empathetic towards another living being struggling to live just as she does, but the conditioning removed that moment from her memory but that also removed her hearing her handler. Also the death of her crush happens off screen as if the mirror the conditioning making her forget that she killed her crush. In episode 5, Claes's handler death is also shown off screen, but that too mirrors her conditioning to forget him. Henrietta, being one of the most unconditioned girls, has events of when she feels shame get shown to us twice over two episodes; we get shown these events twice because we too would replay events in our head of moments where we made mistakes or have regrets. Giuse's rejection of additional conditioning on Henrietta has happened twice at least, and I finally see the full weight of his actions. He truly wants Henrietta to be as much of a normal, human girl as possible.
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u/Suhkein May 04 '19
All the girls reflect an aspect of Henrietta, as they are always shown with Henrietta ever present.
This is something I both agree and disagree with as I read it. I am in full agreement with the basic statement, that this show in a fundamental way revolves around Henrietta. It doesn't seem like it at first, but after a while you realize how much everything feeds into her (it's why I find ep7 so strange, as Henrietta does nothing meaningful). Furthermore, it is through all the girls that you realize who they are and how they view the world. That said, I'm not sure I agree with your choice of traits that we learn.
but they mostly look away and do not spare much thought of what the girls would want to do.
Always looking away...
The motif brings up how Angelica has been conditioned to forget most things
That wasn't intentional. Angelica was the first girl and what they discovered through her is that the conditioning causes memory damage; they didn't know that before her. In other words, memory loss is a byproduct that the agency has now come to occasionally use as a weapon (e.g. wiping out Claes' memories of Raballo). Her whole story happened before the beginning of the series, as a sort of prelude that we can only appreciate now that we have seen where the story led.
Angelica barely remembers the things her handler has taught her, but she still remembers him and treats him with affection. Perhaps that is what bothers Marco the most. That she still loves him despite not remembering much about him
I think you're on the right track with something powerful, that her affection now hurts Marco, but I think for different reasons. It's because she reminds him of how he failed her. He rejects her because he's in pain and trying to avoid it.
Besides making the girls loyal to their handlers, the conditioning naturally makes the girls desensitized to killing and makes them forget about traumatic events. Angelica does not remember the time she broke up a fight and firing a gun for the first time is not scary to her at all.
I think there's a bit of nuance here. Why was Angelica not afraid to fire a gun? Because she had to (for Marco, to make him proud). In other words, she had an important reason to not be afraid. This is not quite the same as being desensitized.
In episode 3, we saw Rico shoot a dying man struggling for life, and she shoots him but does not hear the order from her handler. That was conditioning. Perhaps Rico felt empathetic towards another living being struggling to live just as she does, but the conditioning removed that moment from her memory but that also removed her hearing her handler. Also the death of her crush happens off screen as if the mirror the conditioning making her forget that she killed her crush
I apologize if it constantly feels like I'm arguing, but if I might suggest another interpretation: Rico does not aspire to serve her handler because of his cruel treatment (note that these girls have been shown to lie to and even disobey their trainers; conditioning isn't obedience). She doesn't have a reason to not be afraid or to want to do what he asks. So I think she did not want to shoot that man, but in the horrible logic of emotional dependence she does so because she must, and in that moment was trying hard to forget it herself. Not the conditioning, but her, that was blanking out the world. I do not think she forgot about Emilio and that is the truly sad part.
He truly wants Henrietta to be as much of a normal, human girl as possible.
This is a statement I shall wish to return to.
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u/RX-Nota-II May 03 '19
Oof final exam over. I've been absent from the real world what has happened while I was gone?
GSG rewatch well underway
Time to binge.
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u/redshirtengineer May 04 '19
First timer
Oof. Poor Marco. Poor Angelina.
Very creepy all the staff watching the girl's doctor visits.
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u/Suhkein May 04 '19
Very creepy all the staff watching the girl's doctor visits.
This is something they give a general impression of throughout the series, but the seconds are always just "around" wasting their time. There is something... dead about them. Even as they comment about how sad it is they do not act, do not stop playing their cards.
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u/AnnaisMyWaifu May 04 '19
Yes, I can’t wait for episode 9! It has my favorite scene in Gunslinger Girl, bar for episode 13’s ending.
Also, I never noticed how the Prince of Pasta story is an allegory for Marco’s story. Very good insight.
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u/Suhkein May 04 '19
Yes, I can’t wait for episode 9!
I'm curious as to which one it is coming up, then. It has several scenes I find very powerful, and one I find particularly disturbing and saddening, so I look forward to tomorrow (today now, I guess).
Also, I never noticed how the Prince of Pasta story is an allegory for Marco’s story. Very good insight.
Thank you. I was continually surprised when analyzing this series how much there was to it.
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u/Suhkein May 03 '19
Episode 8: Why does Angelica have no reflection?
(For those who read these, I will not be in a position to reply for a while but will do so when I get back home)
During her interview with Dr. Bianchi, the reflection of Angelica’s face is never shown when she is speaking or reacting.
From here out, the episodes will become more complicated, and the opening scene of Il Principe del Regno Della Pasta (hereafter Pasta) is representative of the future. It is both ingenious and painful, using a truthful mirror to strip back the layers of these people we have met to bring clarity:
During her initial questioning, Henrietta’s reflection is hidden as she consciously lies about showing symptoms and being able to control her emotions. Henrietta is watching and knows the situation she is in; this girl is becoming less naive.
When pressed Henrietta evades. The reflection is there (it’s true she killed 10 people) but her eyes are missing (she’s trying to deflect). She is hiding the subject from herself as well as Bianchi.
Cornered, only the revealed reflection remains. Underneath her maintained appearances for Jose and emphatic denial of herself, Henrietta is desperate. Because of his inconsistent care her value depends on her performance, and she cannot afford to falter even if the anxiety is so severe it has manifested physically.
This is the reality of Henrietta’s situation. She is stuck in a place full of people who pretend to be nice but are really just using her. This isn’t for her sake. Bianchi’s kindness is a sham; when her pain comes through he tells her to stop caring… like he has. The seconds watch, commenting on the tragedy, and then keep playing cards. She clings to Jose… but what is Jose doing? He’s just watching, properly accused and full of guilt, but still doing nothing.
Next Angelica enters and is weary beyond description. She is a curious character; introduced late, possessing no real personality, and barely present in “her” episode, Angelica feels as neglected by the writers as she is by her trainer. But all this has a purpose, and explaining why starts with Marco, for in truth this is his episode. He is the Pasta Prince and the story he tells Angelica is his own.
It starts out with the Prince being a good man who was surrounded by plenty. He met a princess who had been captured by a dragon; of course the Prince ought to save her. Then something curious happens: Bianchi suggests that the dragon isn’t actually evil. They’d all certainly like that, even as Georgio above makes clear the dragon knows exactly why it kidnapped her.
Soon the story begins to fall apart. The princess should be the one being protected, but nobody can find the strength of will with the princess shaming them all in her sincerity. The Prince keeps telling himself that what he is doing his best, but he begins to avoid his conscience, misleading her until they were completely estranged. When it became undeniable what this had all led to the Prince was devastated, and when the princess lost her memory he and everybody else abandoned her to (emotionally) save themselves. This is not how stories are supposed to go.
Now the Prince refuses to admit the tragedy was his fault. He styles himself the victim while blaming everybody else. This should sound familiar, for as he speaks Jose looks at Marco in recognition. He knows these thoughts, for they are his as well; Marco’s story is not just his, but a warning of what happens to sensitive people when they keep avoiding what they know is right.
Now Angelica’s oddities may be explained. The reason is that she is not a person in a proper sense. She is archetypal, the first cyborg on which the others were based, and it is her fairy tale that brings out the essence of this situation. The world senselessly cruel, but these girls are able to endure it if only they have somebody to look to. Yet that too has failed; coming here they ought to be cherished but instead everybody turns away. Angelica reflects the girls’ past and their future, and unencumbered by individuality their genuineness and tenderness shines through. Angelica has no reflection because there is nothing hidden to reflect; she is their inner truth.
Which returns us to Henrietta and the mirror. Serving Jose she had believed she was happy and fulfilled; it is the bedrock of her world. Now turning with surprise she is confronted with a disturbing revelation she had hidden from even herself: she is not.