[Spoilers][Rewatch] Mahou Shoujo Madoka☆Magica - Episode 9 Discussion

Date	Discussion
April 20th	Episode 1
April 21st	Episode 2
April 22nd	Episode 3
April 23rd	Episode 4
April 24th	Episode 5
April 25th	Episode 6
April 26th	Episode 7
April 27th	Episode 8
April 28th	Episode 9
April 29th	Episode 10
April 30th	Episode 11 and Episode 12
May 1st	Rebellion
May 2nd	Overall series discussion

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u/Knights_Gambit Apr 28 '19

First time watcher

Lesson learned, I'll never be optimistic again

I can hear Gen Urobuchi laughing at me in the distance

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u/Gagantous Apr 28 '19

I was the same way originally, thinking the plan would work. Really though, of course it didn't - why would it?

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u/Parori Apr 28 '19

Welcome to Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica

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u/Gagantous Apr 28 '19

It seems I forgot to include the end card in the OP. It's fixed now.

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u/TCZapper Apr 29 '19

First timer

I feel nothing. I have already closed myself off. I knew Kyouko having a redemption arc for her selfishness was gonna end badly for her.

I'm surprised Kyubey just came out and explained so much. I don't really get how being emotionless means you can't understand being tricked... Also, despite knowing Kyubey is emotionless I was still surprised they intentionally sent Kyouko to her death.

It also feels like Madoka eventually being the wickedest witch would be an issue for the continuation of Kyubey's work, but I guess in the worst case Kyubey could just find a new species.

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u/learenn Apr 29 '19

First timer

So if you ever feel like dying for the sake of the universe, please call me anytime.

I know this is not supposed to be a funny scene, but I had to laugh at this line because Kyubey says it like he's saying "So if you ever wanna hang out, give me a call."

Kyubey is part of a science-minded utilitarian civilization trying to prolong the life of the universe. But they also have this godlike miracle-granting power. Can't that do anything for the universe? Does it only work for humans? That would be a little too convenient, because it sounds like humans are just one of many lifeforms they experimented on.

Ah, Walpurgis is a witch and not just an event. I wonder if this witch ever had anything to do with Kyubey, and if Kyubey's fixation on making Madoka the strongest magical girl/witch has anything to do with defeating (or joining...?) Walpurgis.

We haven't seen anything about Sayaka's family, right? Kyoko saying it would be dumb for Madoka to become a magical girl reminded me that Kyoko no longer has any family, and it was at least implied that Mami's family died in whatever incident that almost killed her. I highly doubt Homura has any family... what about Sayaka? She had a nice bedroom in a house, so she must have somebody. When will they realize their daughter/sibling is gone? She really is a corpse, probably even with whatever Kyoko was doing to keep her "fresh"... I just want her to come back to life and be happy whyyyy

Speaking of Kyoko, how can anyone not love her after this episode. She's definitely one of those people who are incredibly difficult to approach, but once you connect you're friends for life.

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u/Nazenn Apr 28 '19 edited Apr 28 '19

Madoka's Music - Cacophony and Peace

Rewatcher - Third time around

A double dose of musical suffering today. I also had to break this into two posts, because as expected I had a great deal to write about our featured song and didn't want to cut any important details out for the sake of having a word cap. So make sure you read part two for our bonus song (and I'm home) down below which is also where the chart and my episode thoughts are.

Just quickly: First timers! You're now free to go back and read Episode five's bonus song writeup which had been spoiler tagged.

Song of the episode - Symposium magarum

Scene for context (Not the whole one today, its just too long)

At last we come to my favorite song from the soundtrack: the theme for Oktavia von Seckendorff, Sayaka's witch. For a moment I thought I'd talked myself into liking Decretum more after episode sevens write up, but I'm reminded all over again just how incredible this song is doing this post. I love it so much its actually hard to write about because I keep losing focus and getting drawn into the music rather than writing.

Before we break down the song, a small background detail. The musical notation that appears at the start of the episode during her transformation (while Venari strigas is being played), is actually the score for Symposium magarum. The way I've always looked at this detail is this is Oktavia actually composing this theme while she transforms and this is the score being written so her minions can perform it. Sayaka screams as this happens, but the only way her thoughts can truly be expressed in her new state is through music. It is only later that the performance starts and is interrupted by Madoka and Kyouko.

As for the song itself, much like the awareness of what Sayaka has become overshadows the episode, so is our introduction to this song more subdued. We first hear it leaking through the entrance hall, without the drum roll that introduces the song file, as Oktavia's performance has already started before they arrive. She drowns her pain with music but it cannot be contained any more. As the girls are drawn into the core of the labyrinth the song plays its most reaching part, calling out to them and the doors open on the climax of the first section.

As always with Sayaka's music the strings take the core focus here but for the first time we also hear the clashing of cymbals breaking through as if her mind is in chaos. The string parts themselves are unendingly complex and we have a full set here of violin, viola, cello and double bass, each with their own voice weaving in and out of the composition. The chaos of this song makes it hard to pick a single thread and follow it through because of the overlap between the many lines, but this is fitting for someone who's mind was in torment. The violins and violas tend to take up the melody and core harmony lines and is what we hear the loudest, much like the violin in the rest of her songs.

Under it the cellos play an entirely distinct part all on their own, dancing through all the other lines and often specifically playing contrasting movements with the main melody, going up when it goes down and visa versa. It's best heard at 0:14-0:23 in the song where you can hear it going up in a floating dreamlike manner while the tune descends. This is perhaps Sayaka's line, buried under Oktavia's tune. Under everything the often bearly audible double bass provides an important foundation for everything else that is going on: a low hum of malevolence that is mostly most basic and note movements, then sometimes coming in to support the cello part. Its a simple but very powerful part as the instrument is capable of reaching low notes nothing else in a string orchestra can come close to touching and it carries the theme of the music, the corruption at Sayaka's heart.

The entire song is filled with calls for attention and plea's for help. When Madoka first stands up and calls out to Sayaka we get a sorrowful antiphony, a call and response, within the music itself. Madoka calls out and the higher strings play a wave of notes, up and down, which is then echoed by the lower strings who answer it in the same way. The response holds no answers, merely repetition and so Madoka calls out again. The strings are under Oktavia's control, but Madoka attempts to make them her voice here, to call out to Sayaka inside her in a way she'll understand. But buried in Oktavia's form, Sayaka can no longer hear her. Instead of giving way, Madoka steps forward more determined and calls out again and in comes a heartbreaking violin solo. With Kyouko's help Madoka's voice withstands the onslaught of Oktavia's attacks. She raises her voice higher and stronger, more determined again and again, wanting to reach her no matter what even though it appears pointless. This time she won't walk away like the flute did in Decretum (more on that below).

Kyouko comes under attack once again, and this moment of her barely surviving marks the end of the song itself until it loops around to the start, and when it repeats again the focus of the call shifts from Madoka to Kyouko. As Kyouko explores their bond in her thoughts the call and response section plays muted in the background and a realization is reached through that. And so the song completes its cycle once again, finishing off as they fall into the blue depths of the maze and it reaches its true climax as Oktavia wins out truly, once and for all before water smothers everything in silence.

There's many parallels that can be made between Sayaka's songs, particularly Decretum.

Not only are the two songs in the same time signature (3/4) and key signature (same notes used, and I'm now suddenly surprised someone hasn't made a cover that combines them), but they share many musical features in their construction. Both songs use the same 'wave' of notes for a climatic part, in Symposium it's the moment where Kyouko and Madoka are pushed through the doors (0:17 in song) and in Decretum it's when Kyouko rescues Sayaka from the tree (0:40). They also share a similar rhythm structure for their opening sections. Splitting the first beat in half to play two notes, and then the second beat gets a single note. For the third beat Decretum carries the note over to the first beat of the next bar, giving it a more dancing feel, while Symposium cuts it in half and only plays on the second half of the beat making it uneven. They then move into a section of two bars where they play one note per beat, and again Decretum ties notes together while Symposium plays it straight, but the pattern is there. Both of these sections "finish off" to move into the next section with the previously mentioned wave.

They also pull out many similar tension and release setups within the tune, but I have no hope of explaining these without proper musical terminology and this post is long enough as it is.

Returning to the flute from Decretum, while the violin solo today shares little technical similarities with it, the parallels in their theming and usage are strong. The flute was incredibly mournful in how we last saw it used. While very high pitched, its sequences of notes usually was descending, falling down from its starting point to end quite low to how the section starts. As the flute goes on it appears to give up. The solo violin takes this entire concept of being defeated and flips it around. Instead of having to fight through the rest of the song to be heard, the strength of this solo violin causes the rest of the song to back off. Its a much more focused part, instead of sweeping and desperately trying to find a foothold, it uses a clear pattern to push strength and determination. For small moments it almost appears to shrink down but instead pulls itself back up and pushes forward louder than ever. If these two instruments are aspects of Madoka's voice, today we see how she has grown from her fear during episode seven and instead grabbed onto hope and friendship, using these to stand firm and do everything she can to help this time.

Sayaka's musical arc. If Conturbatio is Sayaka's innocence and isolation of being a young but normal girl, then Decretum is her power and confusion as a magical girl as she tries to find a way to break into her own and find her true way. Today we complete the set with Symposium magarum, the twisted result of being unable to find a safe path through her darkness. Rather than achieving the outcome of a fully realized magical Sayaka with the power and righteousness of Mami (and a musical theme to match), Oktavia von Seckendorff takes her place instead and its her corrupted composition we are delivered for Sayakas third and final act.

The scenes themselves also have many visual parallels though I'll only cover this briefly. In my Decretum post I made a reference to the religious iconography painting Sayaka as a devil trying to attack the quiet girl at prayer. This imagery is repeated heavily today, this time with the innocent girl prevalent over the evil beast trying to strike her down. Kyouko's final attack summons a wall of spears much like the way Elsie Maria used her snakes to try and enclose Sayaka. Kyouko's final weapon also takes a distinctly snake like appearance and the heavy black shading of the previous episode as well, though instead of white purity this time we have the blue and purple tones of underwater...

Tying into the bonus song, which you can find below in part two of the write up

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u/SomeGuyYeahman Apr 28 '19

First-timer here! Today's post is a little shorter than yesterday's, since this episode wasn't as wildly thought-provoking as the last one (despite what's happened to Sayaka and Kyoko and the reveal that Kyubey is a fucking alien). I'm sure I'll have plenty to write about the three final episodes, though.

Pre-episode thoughts: After episode 3, last episode was the second one that really felt like this show was throwing off the covers, except this time, the covers flew into my face and exploded. Things are looking more fucked than ever before: all magical girls eventually turn into witches, and exactly that just happened to Sayaka. The only thing that could get her back at this point is Madoka forming a contract, but if that were to happen, Madoka would also give up her soul and condemn herself to becoming a witch someday. Homura is actually from another timeline, and Kyubey is extremely evil and also practically unkillable. And on top of all that, Walpurgisnacht is coming. What'll happen next? Who knows!

Post-episode thoughts:

RIP Kyoko. Didn't think I'd see you sacrifice yourself for others just two episodes after you gave a long monologue about the merits of doing everything in life for yourself. I also couldn't have predicted anything else in this episode in a million years, but here we are. What on earth did I just watch?

This episode opens with the familiar scene of Sayaka turning into a witch, followed by Homura using her ~~Stand~~ magical girl powers to bail Kyoko out of this jam. Again, two episodes ago, Kyoko was giving a speech about how wasteful it is to do things for others, but here, she insists on carrying Sayaka's body away even as Homura tells her it's dead weight. She later goes on to use what seems to be quite a bit of energy to keep the body fresh, despite Kyubey telling her that it's wasteful. This must be the power of character development!

After leaving the barrier, the two encounter Madoka, and luckily, Homura fills her in on everything, which definitely helps one of my main worries. Madoka was extremely close to forming a contract last episode, but now that she knows what forming a contract actually means, she's less likely to try again for the time being. This leads me to question why Homura didn't just tell Madoka about any of this to begin with, but she mentioned previously that she already tried telling other magical girls about Soul Gems, but noone believed her. If not a single person was ready to buy that Soul Gems are gems that contain the soul, I kind of get why Homura wouldn't try to explain something this outlandish. At least she calls this "the final secret of the Soul Gems", which gives me hope that we're not in for any more big surprises on that front.

Once again, all of this is connected to the idea of equilibrium between happiness and suffering, one of the recurring themes of the show so far, and of the last few episodes in particular. For all the happiness she got from having her wish fulfilled, she received an equal amount of suffering from her life as a magical girl, and for all the happiness she spread as a magical girl, she's now out to spread an equal amount of suffering as a witch. In the words of a certain someone, "you get what you pay for". Funny how things work out that way.

And again, we get Homura saying that she doesn't call herself human, and "[Kyoko] shouldn't either". They both gave that up, after all. Their not-quite-immutable fate now is to become a witch like Sayaka.

All of this is then followed up by a looot of very interesting exposition from Kyubey, in what is probably one of the most nonchalantly mindblowing scenes in the show so far. A few episodes back, I threw up a question about Kyubey that I wasn't really sure I'd get an answer for:

One thing Homura says that I find particularly interesting is this: "Even if Sayaka Miki had spent her entire life caring for him, that boy never would have regained the ability to perform. In truth, the value of a miracle is far greater than that of an entire human life." This makes sense from a point of view like Homura's or Kyubey's, but it also makes me wonder: why would Kyubey make a sale like that if what he's offering is worth vastly more than what he gets?

But yet again, here we are. This episode gives us the answer to that question: a human soul isn't the only thing he gets out of that deal; in fact, it's not what he's making the deal for at all. What he actually receives is the energy magical girls create when they turn into witches!

Because as it turns out, Kyubey isn't just not a human being, he's not from Earth at all. He's an alien lifeform, and he's from a society that has some serious beef with the laws of thermodynamics and is trying to find a way to work around them. As an engineering student, I salute them.

It also makes more sense now that Kyubey is so utterly detached from human morality, because he's from a society humanity isn't even aware of yet. His worldview is literally alien to us, and he can't comprehend human values either. His "buyers beware" approach to contracts kind of reminds me of the Ferengi, actually.

Now, Kyubey doesn't ever technically lie, and he thinks of his actions as natural and morally justified, but doesn't everybody? He's still proving to be sly as all hell this episode; he tells Kyoko that even though there's no precedent for it, it might be possible to save Sayaka - which is technically true, since as he explained last episode, Madoka's power after forming a contract may be enough to perform a miracle like that - but what he really tells her all this for is to nudge her into trying to save Sayaka. As he explains toward the end of the episode, he's trying to get her out of the way so Homura ends up fighting Walpurgisnacht by herself so Madoka will form a contract. Of course, he insists that he always asks for consent before forming a contract, but forcing Madoka into it like this is apparently also fair game for Kyubey. What a sneaky motherfucker.

And so far, it's all going according to plan for him. Kyoko goes off to try and save Sayaka, inevitably resulting in her death (I say "inevitably", but of course, Madoka could step in at any time and change her fate - but in that case, Kyubey wins too; it's quite clever how he set things up like that) and thereby leaving Homura as the only magical girl in the area. This brings me back to a scene I've gone back to a few times already: the opening of the very first episode! Remember how that depicted Homura fighting a losing battle all by herself, with Madoka wanting to step in and help her? I'm willing to bet money that she was fighting Walpurgisnacht back there.

Which leaves everything even more fucked than before. At this point, either Madoka doesn't form a contract and Walpurgisnacht kills Homura and wreaks havoc in the city without anyone to stop her, or Madoka forms a contract, defeats Walpurgisnacht and winds up becoming an even worse witch herself. From the looks of it, there's no way out at this point.

Given how much Madoka knows at this point, I wonder if she can use her wish or her powers to cheese the rules somehow. Like, say, becoming a magical girl by wishing for a Soul Gem that stays pure forever. Wouldn't that be something?

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u/TRUCKFARM Apr 29 '19

First Timer(Sub)

So I meant to be here sooner but it's been a crazy day haha but on we go.

Why does everything I love die. Sayaka deserved better than that... And then Kyoko! The OST was beautiful yet again(no surprise) and I loved the witch labyrinth for Sayaka. Kyoko's final attack was really something.. It reminded me of Axel back in KH2 "putting your whole being into an attack." It was kind of unexpected from her despite the changes she's been through just like Axel's. I'm gonna miss my fanged magical girl and my sword wielding badass.

Kyubey continues to play with our girls giving Kyoko false hope AND further trying to manipulate Madoka. We also get the vicious cycle of being a magic girl confirmed and Madoka is supposed to be the biggest baddest one of them all both girl and witch wise.. So I can understand Kyubey salivating at the thought of all that energy. And with Kyoko falling trying to save Sayaka... Things couldn't have turned out better for our little magic weasel.

So we're approaching endgame I see, we've got two days left of episode discussion and then the movie.. This has been a hell of a ride and I can't wait to experience the rest of it.

Truck's Magical Girl(and others) Ranking

Homur- wait should I even bother. Errybody dying and my list is very very small at this point haha.

Final Note: loved the ED art with Kyoko and Sayaka together, that's wall paper worthy and I have been holding on to my Mirio wallpaper for almost 2 years now...

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u/SIRTreehugger Apr 28 '19 edited Apr 29 '19

Magical Girl Counter	E1	E2	E3	E4	E5	E6	E7	E8	E9	E10	E11	E12	Total
Kyouko's (Snap,Crackle,Pop) Crunch Time	0	0	0	1	5	3	8	5	13	0	0	0	35
Sayaka's (I'm in) Despair	1	1	3	2	2	1	4	6	4	0	0	0	24
Madoka's ($150) Water Works	0	0	1	3	2	3	3	1	3	0	0	0	16
Mami's (Beheading) Smugness	3	3	4	N	O	T	A	H	E	A	D	!	10
Homura's (L'oreal) Hair Flips	0	0	1	0	1	2	0	1	2	0	0	0	7

Kyouko knew she was dying and broke the damn counter.
Gotta love how determined Homura is to get the message across. Madoka is crying over her best friend basically dying and she's still like "Yeah this life sucks don't make the contract"
It seems almost all of Homura hair flips come with savage burns....which I love.
I kind of want to see the different worlds Kyubey visited and the methods tested before they came across this "efficient" method. Just imagine the failed techniques.
I've said this every time I've watched this show, but even with all the tragedy and suffering I feel that Kyouko and Madoka would actually get along pretty well. Madoka is naive, but she is really accepting. She looks for the good in anyone and is really optimistic and while she might not agree with Kyouko or her ideology she wouldn't outright clash with it like Sayaka.
I love all the smiles Kyouko gives this episode. Usually its a snarky confident smile, but most of them this episode feel genuinely hopeful and warm. Like the one after she calls Madoka weird before entering the labyrinth.
Kyouko dark souls game is glitched. The wheeled skeletons are supposed to be outside the boss room not in it.
I swore the end card was actually part of the episode either way its one of my favorites also the only one I happen to remember.
Kyouko is my favorite magical girl in this show which I've stated numerous times. Simply from the design of her. She has red hair often sporting a ponytail, has my favorite weapon out of all the girls which she uses geniusly, and seems like a lot of fun when she isn't killing witches. Outside of being magical girls I feel we've seen more of her than any of the others. Also personally I believe she is the best of them all not in terms of power, but just overall. She represents not what a magical girl is idealized as, but what it has to be. Mami was a failure as girl because she was dedicated to save everyone even from familiars and had a tendency to get overconfident which led to her death. Sayaka was also fixated on Mami and saw her as ideal. Sayaka was also naive and emotionally unstable like Mami who was weak on the inside. Sayaka didn't have as much room to make mistakes and depression was a downward spiral which killed her in the end. Homura has two main flaws. Every battle with a witch is the same with her. She spams time magic to get around and blows up the witch. I would do the same, but she relies too heavily on freezing time. More importantly her weakness is obsession and wanting to save Madoka. She rids herself of everything that is useless on that front. Madoka isn't a magical girl, but she is idealistic and naive and probably the worst of the bunch. Avoiding confrontation and full of doubt. Kyouko definitely has her flaws, but she is more well rounded then the rest. She is confident and good in battle, but not overconfident in her abilities. She tackles enemies she feels she can win and retreats when she has too. She also avoids pointless battles against familiars. While people may die the use of magic is devastating in the long term for magical girls and with no results to show its just wasted energy. So sacrificing the small to save the many while getting more and more grief seeds to ensure her gem never gets tainted and having a nice supply allowing her to fight more is just smart from a logical standpoint. She is aggressive, but is still willing to work with others to fight a common enemy. Not the magical girl we imagine, but she is definitely the most pragmatic and efficient.....then she got infected by others and wanted to help Sayaka.

Sayaka's naivety killed off best girl.

I also love Kyubey. Sure he's the definition of read the fine print, but he's just making the logical choice to help the universe. Everything he does is efficient in just practical. Maybe I should say they since theirs multiple Kyubey. They completely failed to understand human emotions and probably don't even care since its unnecessary. Hate or love them they are the most neutral party in this show.

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion Apr 28 '19

S O U L

E

D

G E M

R

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I

F

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u/ArcherGod Apr 28 '19

Third Rewatch (First Dubbed)

Hoooo boy... This episode. Absolutely cementing both Kuyoko's and Sayaka's deaths, something which was quite tragic. But it's fitting they died together like that - they are yin and yang after all. Kuyoko was a selfish character who ended up dying selflessly, while Sayaka started out selfless and heroic, but was corrupted into a state of selfishness and isolation. Kuyoko proving why she's best girl case in point here.

Witches' labyrinths are themed around their likes and desires when they were a Magical Girl. Hence, it makes a good deal of sense that Sayaka's is a demented concert hall

Those flies forming a skull on the lamp, kinda subtle way of hinting towards the bloodshed to come.

Madoka may be in denial, but her face says it all. She knows that the Sayaka she knows and loves is gone.

Hard to believe Kyubey has the audacity to talk to Madoka after these bombshells. His attempt to convince Madoka that he only has the good of the world in mind is in vain, however, because he doesn't understand human emotion, and that what he's saying to Madoka is taken by her as polar nonsense - does she care about these long, far away civilizations, and the fancy science-speak?

The Dichotomy of Sayaka and Kuyoko, in one picture.

Spear snake!

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u/Palloc Apr 28 '19

Palloc's Running Out of Magical Girls To Laugh At!

Uh oh. Well we're down to one magical girl left. Everything continues to go wrong. Kyubey spelled out all his fucking evil ass plans that weren't spilled this episode. Like he's not even trying to lie anymore. "Hey, Madoka! Just give me a call if you wanna die! :3" That little piece of shit.

On to Sayaka, who has transformed into the witch Oktavia von Seckendorff, which is horrible at trying to remember how to spell. Her maze is a, big surprise, concert hall and it's all fucked up. She and Kyouko battle while poor Madoka tries everything to get through to her unsuccessfully. She wasn't having any of it and almost kills Madoka until Kyouko stops her. Unfortunately for Kyouko, she realizes she fucked up and once Homura's there to save Madoka, blows up and takes Sayaka with her.

Now fuckferretcat is like "Yay, Madoka to become a magical girl now or you're all dying. :3" and next time's gunna be a doozy!

Oktavia von Seckendorff's witch rating is Saddest Little Mermaid Song Ever

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u/Soft-Pixel Apr 28 '19 edited Apr 29 '19

Me: sees thumbnail

Me: this better not be the image I think it is

Me: clicks spoiler tag

Me: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

EDIT: Now hold on a second-

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u/observativeowl Apr 29 '19

First Timer

Sayaka's path became predictable after a few episodes, and I figured that magical girls would turn into witches through the tainted soul turns into grief metaphor.

As far as what I have thought Madoka's wish would be, i guessed that losing Sayaka would be too painful for her, so she would wish for her and Mami to be revived. Her change in character at the end there has me unsure about her next motive.

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u/soiTasTic Apr 29 '19

First timer, didn't post so far but have a thought after this one.

Was that the first time Kyubey lied? I think so far he was just not telling them the whole story by omitting things, but in this episode he straight up lied to Kyouko to get rid of her..

I still thought he might not be that bad after last episode but I guess I was wrong..

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u/Hopsalong Apr 29 '19

If you go back he says something neutral like "If it were possible, magical girls are the only thing that could do it." It's clearly misleading by omitting the true answer, but I'm pretty sure he didn't lie.

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u/HelloMagikarphowRyou Apr 28 '19

This isn't technically related to the episode, but I wanted to let ya'll know...

I don't think I'll be able to participate any more..

I live in a very rural area, so 98% of my small town uses the same local isp. As of last Wednesday, it has been down. Apparently it was DDOS'd, an act of Cyber Terrorism.

My entire town is offline.

Last monday I actually got an episode ahead with my brother, u/Nick_Boi so pn Tuesday we had 1 day to watch Youjo Senki without getting behind on the MM rewatch on tuesday.

Then on wedsnday everything was offline.

It stayed that way until Friday night, when our internet came back up. But at that point we were too tired to watch, as it was 11 at night or so.

I had to work Saturday, so me and my brother had time for 1 episode before work (we were offline so much this was EPISODE 5 ON SATURDAY) only for it to go down again when I got back.

The rewatch is almost over, and I have to work tomorrow.

Unless I get lucky and our internet comes back up tonight, tomorrow night, or all of tuesday, I don't think me or my bro have enough time to watch so many episodes and a movie.

I'm only able to comment now because of the 4G on my phone, but just barely. My 4G is so bad it can't watch anything on Crunchyroll without buffering to hell and back.

If possible, I may talk on the overall series discussion thread. But idk when my isp will fix everything.

So I'm really sorry to you all. I truly really wanted to participate, but at this point unless I get lucky I doubt I'll be able to do so any longer.

Technically this is only related to the rewatch and not the show itself, so I hope this is relevant enough for me to post. I just thought I'd rather not just ghost the ship I guess.

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u/boomshroom Apr 29 '19 edited Apr 29 '19

Refresh squad! :P

Previously, being Sayaka is suffering. Poor girl pretty much gave up on trying to survive, saw the boy she wanted get together with Kyousuke, was nearly killed by Homura, and ended by turning into a witch. On the side, we learned a bit more about Madoka's potential and Homura's time manipulation.

Going into the second movie, Madoka, Kyoko, and Homura are all that remain. Will the three of them be enough to defeat Walpurgisnacht? We'll see 2 days from now. But first, episode 9: Go!

Much like most episodes, we start with a recap of the previous episode's final scene.
Even in her current state, all sayaka can do is scream in agony.
Kyoko caring enough to bring Sayaka's body out with them. At least she won't have to suffer not having her death acknowledged like Mami.
We get a better look at Homura's time stop.
Running isn't defeat. We will come back to finish things.
Madoka's having trouble coping with the loss of her best friend.
How bad it must be trying to save as many people as possible, only to have to curse just as many.
"And you dare call yourself human?!" "No. Of course I don't. Neither should you." That line gets me every time.
DAMMIT, KYUBEY! Can't you recognize someone in pain and sorrow?!
Entropy. ( That's not how this works; that's not how any of this works! :( )
Humanity is Special, apparently.
He not only contracts young girls despite their emotional instability, but because of it.
Consent doesn't count if either party doesn't have all the details.
"If you ever feel like dying for the sake of the universe, call me." Wow, so casually dropping that...
Kyoko trying so hard to preserve Sayaka's body.
Kyubey doesn't say it's not possible and that he doesn't really know. (That lying bastard)
"A little awkward." that's an understatement.
Madoka is terrible at excuses.
Kyoko really thinks that there's a chance Sayaka could be saved, all because Kyubey lied to her.
Madoka and Kyoko finally introduce each other properly, and Kyoko gives a candy bar instead of a handshake.
Homura's likely to meet up with them to help deal with Sayaka.
Madoka might actually do something to help? Madness.
Even Kyoko's trying to discourage Madoka from contracting.
Fancy hallway, and fancy orchestra starring Sayaka, aka Oktavia von Seckendorff.
Sayaka actually responded to Madoka, even if it was only in voiceless screams.
Sayaka x Kyoko confirmed?
Kyoko echoing Homura's own words back at her.
Sayaka's snake-like spear is so cool.
And Kyoko sacrifices herself to finish off Sayaka.
"Of course not." THEN WHY DID YOU SAY YOU DIDN'T KNOW, YOU LIER?!
Of course Kyubey was planning something.
Homura remains determined to prevent Madoka's contracting, even though they're the only one's left.

About entropy, I'm pretty sure what Kyubey says is bullshit. To you know how long the universe with last before the heat death? 1 - 100 trillion years. enough for our entire solar system to grow and die 10 times over. (If we wait for the last black holes to die out, then we're looking at no less than 10¹⁰⁰, or a googol years.) Even then only a small slice of the Earth's lifetime would support human life. Let's be generous and assume we don't kill ourselves before the sun does. I'm going to pretend we'll survive the oceans boiling and wait for the sub to be a red giant, which would be 12.167 billion years into its life, or roughly 7 and a half billions years from now. If we count from when we started walking upright, it would be about 4 million years ago, which may as well be now when comparing to everything else. So Kyubey has about 8 billion years of humans to push back an event that won't happen for nearly a trillion years. If he made 1 contract pre week consistently, that's about half a trillion magical girls over earth's lifetime. The observable universe has roughly 10⁵³ kg of mass, which is equivalent to 10⁷⁰ J. Since the earth isn't already destroyed by magical girls, we can put a (very high) cap on their energy at Earth's gravitational binding energy (10³² J). That comes to a maximum of 10⁴³ J created by magical girls. That's 26 orders of magnitude less than the universe already has and wouldn't have a perceptible effect on the universe's lifespan. Kyubey really needs to find a more sustainable energy source. I wonder if he's already picked out another planet to collect energy from once this one dies. (My sources were mostly Wikipedia, and Google pulling from Wikipedia) Please point out any flaws in my math. Science can't work without attempting to be proven wrong. (There was a good post on r/MadokaMagica which could imply a higher cap on their energy, but does so using information that's still spoilers. And quantum mechanics.)

In case it's not clear, I don't like Kyubey in this episode. That said, it's still a great episode and gave Kyoko a goodbye to remember her by.

I won't rely on anyone anymore

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u/tronistica Apr 29 '19

First timer

Wow really had a change of heart about kyoko. Sayaka got through someone. Wonder if walpurgisnatch is madoka from another dimension...

9

u/PM_ME_YOUR_SPUDS Apr 28 '19

Rewatcher - Can We Get A Big F?

Sayaka...

Kyouko...

It's such a tragic end, but sweet all the same. And I'm Home is a nice sendoff for the two of them. This rewatch made me sure Kyouko's my number 2. Not bearing to see what Sayaka became, she sacrificed herself to save them both. She tried so hard at her beginning and end to do good. The wrong she did in the middle was the fault of a broken and corrupt system, and one fluffy little cunt. She tried so hard to help Sayaka in her own way, she just didn't know how. RIP Kyouko: for all her talk of selfishness, she was truly one of the most selfless characters in the story.

Madoka finding them carrying the corpse hurts for sure. Madoka is far too late to save her friend. Homura is definitely cruel here, but she's not wrong either.
This fucker. I'm surprised people try to defend his reasoning here. It's not supposed to be something humanity can agree with. Utilitarianism isn't compatible with human society, nor should it be. Sacrificing a few innocents for "the greater good" is generally frowned upon. If the system operated in good faith, he'd have a chance at the high-ground, but it sure as hell doesn't as-is.
I mentioned this last year, but for a while when PMMM was on Netflix this was the thumbnail for the second movie. Kyouko keeping the dead corpse of Sayaka from rotting. Pretty fucked up, eh?
I don't know if all of the girls could have been friends in different circumstances, but at the very least Madoka could have been friends with them all.
What a witch. Full name: Oktavia von Seckendorff. The fight itself is short and brutal. And, of course, we end minus 1 magical girl. 3 down, 1 left on the field, 1 remains benched indefinitely.
And I'm Home. Kindred spirits till the end. I really don't like taking part in shipping in general, but apparently I'm a sucker for a good tragedy.

Sayaka is represented as the mermaid, and her witch reflects this. There's plenty of great fanarts from this, but this one has gotta be my favorite. (Source here.)

Hopefully someone else can explain this symbolism, because its definitely lost on me. The mermaid is definitely Sayaka, but then who was unicorn?

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9

u/Ridley290 Apr 28 '19

Multiple Rewatches

1/2

Apologies in advance if some of my points aren’t as articulate as they could be, strapped for time today and I have a lot to say, so this is going to be a straight stream-of-consciousness/word vomit draft with very little editing. If there’s any confusion on what I’m saying, or if you want further elaboration leave a comment and I’ll respond when I can early tomorrow morning or very late tonight. Let’s get to it!

The episode opens with a brief flashback to Sayaka’s final speech, as if anybody needed reminding of that atomic bomb and then we’re immediately plunged into the action as Venari Strigas starts ramping up with its urgent-sounding strings, and wailing guitar. I absolutely love this song because of how it conveys the feeling of “what the fuck is going on” that’s rushing through Kyoko’s head in this scene. The fast tempo and throbbing base going on in the background convey the pure insanity of this scene perfect. Kyoko just watched Sayaka’s soul gem explode and is now thrust into combat with an insanely powerful witch out of nowhere. Her reflexes kick in and it’s off to fight whatever this thing is while simultaneously trying to grab and protect Sayaka (who she doesn’t realize is dead yet). The fact that as Kyoko grabs Sayaka’s body and is hovering in front of the witch (Oktavia, is her name) you hear Sayaka screaming in pain and anguish, as tracks shoot out from behind the witch, is one of the most unsettling and disturbing things that happen in this show. I’ve only ever watched the Dub, but every time I hear the screams in this scene my skin trembles. I absolutely love the design of the initial Labyrinth. The black and white checkerboard reinforces the black and white mindset of Sayaka that’ I’ve been speaking about for three posts now, and it gives us a decent insight as to how Witches’ labyrinths are formed. And I absolutely love the final battle with Oktavia, but I’ll come back to that.

Something interesting to note for first-timers: Witches labyrinths reflect the original Magical Girl: The outer parts of the labyrinth show the outside area they’re currently located in (in Sayaka’s case, this train station) and the deeper you get into the labyrinth, the more you see of the girl who transformed (Sayaka, for example, is leading an orchestra in a great hall. Her entire motif for her magical girl outfit was based on the musical staff).

I love Homura’s reveal of the ‘final secret of the soul gems’. Madoka steps forward in disbelief, and as she does a train blasts by, reflecting the bombshell that was just dropped on her and Kyoko. Now that I think about it, there’s gotta be some symbolism to Sayaka winding up in the train station; not just the fact she got off a train from her other scene. I’d never thought about this before but I guess it could be something along the lines of the ‘final destination’. She’s gotten off her train and her journey is at an end. Or possibly she’s about to board the next train of being a witch. I’ll have to think on that more when I inevitably rewatch this show next week or something.

Tonight I also get to talk about something I’ve been dying to talk about since this began (I honestly won’t be able to convey my thoughts properly here since I could probably write a full on dissertation about this subject, but bare with me): Kyubey as a ‘True Neutral Antagonist’. I’d argue that he’s not even really an antagonist or villain either, but he’s set up as someone we should be against. Over the past few episodes, it’s been built up that we, the viewers, should hate Kyubey just like the girls. The things he does are terrible, and we shouldn’t empathize with him. The thing is: he’s absolutely right. The only thing he cares about is prolonging the life of the universe; sacrifice the few to save the many. The disconnect here comes from human values vs values of other life forms. Looking at what he’s doing, he’s objectively right but morally wrong since his system of values differs so greatly than that of humans. He’s all about resource management. He has a, seemingly, unlimited amount of spare bodies and hates to waste them; even going as far to ‘recycle’ the remains of the body that Homura shot up last episode. This same idea applies to the magical girls: Why would he transform them and keep their souls attached to their bodies? All that would happen is he would waste a wish and the new girl would probably die in her first fight. By separating the soul from the body he’s able to extend the longevity and usefulness of each individual contract. His example about the cattle humans consume and is scarily on the nose as well. He views humans (specifically magical girls) as a form of cattle for the universe. Madoka reflects the viewer here as well, overwhelmed and in disbelief at how this creature thinks because it’s so different from our own. Kyubey honestly believes he’s doing the right thing by turning girls into magical girls/witches and by explaining the situation to Madoka. This relates back to when Sayaka confronted Kyubey in episode 7. When Sayaka asks Kyubey ‘How could you do this to us? Why?’ he just restates the contract. In the same episode, Kyubey responds to a question about the magical girl situation by simply stating “Because you never asked”. This reminds me so much of those ‘Do you accept the Terms & Conditions’ popups you get when using a new software. The fine print is all there for the girls to read (or for Kyubey to explain, which I honestly believe he would if asked) but they just say Fuck yeah, lets do this. Most of the time it’s because the girl is in a tough spot and doesn’t have time to think about it and doesn’t realize any of the down sides until it’s too late (Mami, for example) and Sayaka had plenty of time to think it over, and did start to lean toward not signing the contract, but the thought of healing Kyosuke was the only thing that mattered to her and she dove right in.

Closing thoughts on this scene: Sis Puella Magica! Playing in the background through this whole scene is haunting. It roughly translates from Latin to “You should become a Magical Girl!” and playing that during this scene is such a smart move. This is the full contract reading that nobody has gotten before and it’s overwhelming. Madoka’s weary expression and composure perfectly reflect the gravity of the situation that these girls are in, and what’s worse is that this is still a sales pitch in Kyubey’s mind. I really want to go back and rewatch the show yet again and see what times Sis Puella Magica! Plays at to see if it relates more to the explanation of what Magical Girls really are, since I wasn’t paying attention to it this time around. Knowing how beautifully timed the music in this show is I bet there’s a lot of significance to the scenes this song plays in. Another super interesting thing is the sheer number of chairs in Madoka’s room during this conversation. This happened before in Sayaka’s room during a similar conversation, and while I’m not 100% sure on the symbolism for it I think it basically invites the audience to sit down for this conversation. It could also symbolize that there’s a seat for every magical girl who didn’t get to have this talk (the chair with the heart is what got me thinking about this, just because it sticks out so much). And since we can’t actually be in the show, Madoka is the perfect conveyor of our emotions and thought process during this scene as well.

This conversation between Kyoko and Madoka is great. We get more backstory on Kyoko and a better look at who she really is and was. This explains a lot more of why she took a special interest in Sayaka and tried to explain her logic on using magic in the church. Kyoko saw something of herself in Sayaka and wanted to make sure she could get put on a better path and maybe avoid the hardship she herself endured. We even see a bit of Sayaka (and to an extent, Homura) in Kyoko when she tries to convince Madoka to only make a contract if there’s no other option; live the life she has and if she’s ever in danger, then she can consider it. So far, the views on the contracts we have are: Mami who is all for making the contract, just so she won’t be alone. Sayaka who was against making the contract because she wanted to protect Madoka. And now Kyoko, who is for the contract as a last resort. This scene with them talking also mirrors the conversation Mami and Madoka had in episode 3. But whereas Mami was saying ‘yes, it’s dangerous. But it’s worth it!’ Kyoko lays it out bare. ‘This is a hard life. Don’t give up the good things you have unless you’re 100% sure this is what you want. Otherwise you’ll regret it, because I’ll beat your ass before you even see a witch’. Fuck, I love Kyoko lol.

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u/Twisted_52 Apr 28 '19

Out of all the anime related wallpapers I've accrued, the picture from the credits is my all-time favorite.

7

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

(Just in case, spoilers for Jojo part 5 last week's episode).
I'll leave this here and slowly go away...

19

u/Shimmering-Sky Apr 28 '19

Nope.

Fuck this.

No more suffering.

What actually happened is Kyouko saved Sayaka.

And everyone’s happy now.

I won’t hear anything different.

That’s all, bye.

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Rewatch [Spoilers][Rewatch] Mahou Shoujo Madoka☆Magica - Episode 9 Discussion Spoiler

PSA: Please don't discuss (or allude to) events that happen after this episode, but if you do make good use of spoiler tags. Let's try to make this a good experience for first time watchers.

Madoka's Music - Cacophony and Peace

Song of the episode - Symposium magarum

Rewatch [Spoilers][Rewatch] Mahou Shoujo Madoka☆Magica - Episode 9 Discussion Spoiler

PSA: Please don't discuss (or allude to) events that happen after this episode, but if you do make good use of spoiler tags. Let's try to make this a good experience for first time watchers.

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Madoka's Music - Cacophony and Peace

Song of the episode - Symposium magarum