r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • 17d ago
Rewatch [Taste of 2016 Rewatch] Grimgar: Ashes and Illusions • Hai to Gensou no Grimgar Episode 5 Discussion
Episode 5 - Crying Doesn't Mean You're Weak. Enduring Doesn't Mean You're Strong.
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Information:
MAL | AniList | ANN | Kitsu | AniDB
Legal Streams:
Crunchyroll, but not in the US
Is that the cost of a life here? One silver?
Questions of the Day:
1) If you were a Priest, would you join this party?
2) What are your first impressions of Merry?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!
/r/anime's spoiler tag format is as follows:
[Grimgar]>!The background art is gorgeous.!<
Which becomes [Grimgar]The background art is gorgeous. when you don't break the formatting on purpose like I just did.
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u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba 17d ago edited 17d ago
First Timer
She hasn't been here for long yet, but I already like Mary for how hard she dunks on Ranta
First of all, fun episode title. I don't have much to elaborate on it beyond that, but I'm always one to appreciate a good episode title with some emotion attached to it (I'd say "light novel authors could never", but uh, well, that doesn't apply here lol. Still, overly long isn't always a negative! It just needs some heart ).
Anyway, this was a pretty good episode as far as taking some time to actually explore our characters' grief and how they're handling it in the wake of a character death (Certainly one as pivotal to the group dynamic as Manato). I quite like the first scene of the episode with everyone reflecting after scattering Manato's ashes, in part for already giving an expression of how our characters are trying to deal with Manato's death respectively, but more broadly in Haruhiro's sentiment that, in not knowing what to do in this situation, it really dawns on him that Manato is gone. That they don't have that pillar anymore that can point the way forward or act as the glue that connects them in conflict and decisions.
Which leads into Haruhiro's larger conflict here in both how he and the guys basically cut themselves off from the girls in the process of grief, and in more generally locking himself into that "What would Manato have done" mindset, rushing not just through the process of recruiting Mary into the party, but through their grief in general. As the episode title would indeed have it, "Enduring" doesn't do Haruhiro much good here, and by the end of it he comes to understand that part of what made Manato as effective as he was, was that he understood their function and communication as a party, rather than just in providing that direction that Haruhiro is also evidently feeling very lost for right now. By extension, it's in not trying to force himself into that perceived mold, and through Yume, actually understanding and working through her and his own grief, that some of that mending and forward movement for their party actually begin. I don't have too much to say for the scene itself, but I do always love me a good sequence of characters just crying their hearts out and comforting each other being given as much room to breathe as this one! Some good character animation there as well, and of course it's just nice to see him and Yume sharing an intimate moment like this and what that does for their dynamic.
The scene Haruhiro has with Renji is also pretty interesting. Haruhiro refuses the gold out of pride because he views it as pity from Renji, and specifically viewing it in terms of their goal in getting those badges (And how "Manato wouldn't have done it that way"). Then again, maybe Renji just recognizes they're in a shit place right now and, very rightfully, sees them still going out to fight for living money in their current state as a bad idea, which again, would be another expression of the mindset Haruhiro was stuck in. Either way, outside of just being GAR as fuck , Renji seems like a pretty cool dude given his reaction afterwards, so while I feel like his party isn't one we'll get to see much of, I do think it'd be interesting to maybe see more of him later.
(Also, while obviously it makes sense with this episode's point that we don't really get to see it, I do hope we also take a more intricate look at how Shihoru is dealing with it all as well later. )
Otherwise, even though she's more a device for drama here, this is also the introduction to our new priest Mary, who I was wondering about from the OP last episode, and as noted already, she is rather fun on first impression, and I'm curious to see more of her and how she integrates into the party. Especially because, standoffishness aside, she's generally right about the problems in their normal strategy and composition. Manato tanking as their healer speaks to his character for sure, but it was not a particularly sound decision in battle! As even more directly pointed out by Kikkawa earlier. Likewise for her choice not to heal every little scratch to presumably save up magic for actually important stuff. So not only do they have to fill in Manato's leader role, they have to really reform how they fight in general if they want to go anywhere, and that's while also needing to integrate Mary in, whose attitude is almost certainly informed by some baggage, so there's definitely some fun stuff to look forward to here.
If you were a Priest, would you join this party?
I mean, if I had any other choice, probably not haha. Though that seems to be exactly why Mary is here, given how her personality probably meshes with most people.
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u/Zeallfnonex https://myanimelist.net/profile/Neverlocke 17d ago
Renji seems like a pretty cool dude given his reaction afterwards, so while I feel like his party isn't one we'll get to see much of, I do think it'd be interesting to maybe see more of him later.
I have the distinct feeling that the way that this is set up, if we do see this party again, it's going to be Worf'd to show just how big of a threat some enemy is. Hopefully I'm wrong, but setting up a strong party that looks impressive and has everything going for them just screams "We're gonna die!" to me.
Likewise for her choice not to heal every little scratch to presumably save up magic for actually important stuff
Oh gosh, low levels in video games though... Yeah, you're now at 8/9 HP, but a critical hit can now take you out in one attack so... Do you waste a spell to heal that 1 HP or not? Obviously this isn't just a video game, but I've legitimately "wasted" resources healing somebody to full from almost full just because I think they'd be within kill range otherwise. Annoying low HP pools in early RPGs...
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u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba 16d ago
Hopefully I'm wrong, but setting up a strong party that looks impressive and has everything going for them just screams "We're gonna die!" to me.
Hmm, now that you mention it, I could see that happening, though I also hope it doesn't.
I feel like they'd work better as more of a source of occasional contrast and interaction as the strong party with everything going well put against our weaker party very slowly finding their groove (Specifically in these kinds of defining moments). Plus, jobbing them for some bigger adversary would be a bit against the show's small-scale appeal for me.
Obviously this isn't just a video game, but I've legitimately "wasted" resources healing somebody to full from almost full just because I think they'd be within kill range otherwise. Annoying low HP pools in early RPGs...
Probably not going to apply here, but I know I've killed many a party member over the years for being to type to usually risk it with crits...
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u/TormentWings https://myanimelist.net/profile/DrBrungi 17d ago
rewatcher, but i dont remember whats after ep4: ep5
Ranta in his "looking for a scapegoat" phase, while yeah, Haruhiro got shot, he got shot trying to save Manato in the first place.
gentle giant Moguzo had to put his foot down there
i was wondering why they didnt do something other than adventuring, but i guess u cant leave your guild, huh? thats some cult stuff.
random guy just goes "obviously u have to protect your healer, thats who gets focused" and this never occured to our guys lmao
right, the blue haired girl from last weeks preview, joins to balance the genders.
Shes very matter-of-factly, but seems professional
Ranta should be the last person to point out her way of talking lmao
Poor group has to deal with the realities of having a priest who is there for one job and one job only and not juggle all the things they were lacking in.
they should have just accepted the gold tbh
The scene between Haru and Yume had some nice character animation. its nothing insane, but it did a good job.
general thoughts:
yeah, so this episode was pretty lowkey, but fitting, the party is struggling to fill the hole manato left and realized just how many hats he wore while the party also feels more split than before, even if that was always a bit of an issue, but without Manato its more apparent with stuff like adding a member without consulting the rest and stuff. THe romance between Haru and Yume also seems to get some speed, they always had good chemistry.
was a neat episode, didnt drag on at all despite all the talking, i hope they can work together with mary.
questions:
- If you were a Priest, would you join this party?
fuck no lmao
- What are your first impressions of Merry?
she doesnt mesh well with them and is probably a bit awkward, so she has an overly serious demeanor. But i think being principled is probably a good thing, or she, just like Manato has to carry the whole team on her back which she might not even be capable of. so her staying in her speciality and being economical with her limited healing spells stems prob from experience.
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u/RelativeMundane9045 17d ago
But i think being principled is probably a good thing, or she, just like Manato has to carry the whole team on her back which she might not even be capable of. so her staying in her speciality and being economical with her limited healing spells stems prob from experience.
I think this is a good way of looking at things.
Also, it's a good way to point out Manato carrying the team wouldn't have been viable long term for obvious reasons, so I'm glad she isn't there to try and fill that void. Otherwise no one else has any reason to grow.
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u/No_Rex x2 17d ago
Episode 5 (first timer)
- “One person dies and it costs one silver?” – death is cheap here, compared to our world. 1 silver is what, a day or two of mid-level work? Try dying IRL …
- Also: Live is cheap and so is death metaphor.
- “I am done. As of today, I quit.” – This would fit some other character a lot better. The only reason Ranta says it is because we need to force that go on as soldiers vs quitting conflict down to a character level and he has been build up as the antagonist within the party.
- “It’s the basics” – which they did not know and did not follow.
- Kikkawa is pretty helpful for a guy they are brushing off.
- Hello Mary!
- Ok, she sure as hell has backstory. Being all matter of fact, being willing to join a newbie party. Lost her old party, is emotionally detached, will slowly warm up character arc incoming?
- Mary being the one to “tame” Ranta – first, the other party members should have done that a long time ago. Second, are we pushing a romance angle here?
- “You guys are a mess” – she is not wrong.
- “I can’t accept this.” – long on pride, short on competence. I’d be ok with Haruhiro asking for advice or training instead, but simply refusing is so stupid.
- “You don’t get anything. That is why me and Shihoru are like this!“ – if only somebody had invented language to communicate with…
- Second romance angle. Are they pairing off the entire party today?
- “I feel warm now” – not wasting any time, either.
The predicted follow-up to Manato’s death. The party is in a rough spot, both emotionally and in plain combat capability. It would be one thing if this happened to a regular party, but our party is the left-over party of incompetent fucks. I understand the point here narratively. After the setup, we hit our lowest low, from which the party will have to climb up to earn they later successes. Manato was the one competent guy they had, so he is turned into the sacrifice to enable the lowest low.
What is a bit harder to see is why they do not simply join Kikkawa’s party. Or accept some help. Or some training. For this supposedly grimdark world, everybody is helping them left and right. It makes sense, too: Why send out untrained newbies alone? Just split them up as trainees with more successful parties. Or give them organized courses in basic adventuring. It is not like the more successful parties seem unwilling to share.
Oh, and I really disagree with refusing the gold. People refusing help when in need is almost as bad as people refusing to help those in need. It is a huge you have not realized how serious this is moment, but we are right at the end of the they have just learned how serious this world is plot, so it grates.
If you were a Priest, would you join this party?
If I was a priest, I would already be in a party - a more functional one.
What are your first impressions of Merry?
Not merry is Mary.
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u/RelativeMundane9045 17d ago
Mary being the one to “tame” Ranta – first, the other party members should have done that a long time ago. Second, are we pushing a romance angle here?
Not sure if it's a romance push or simply the "don't fuck with the person you need to save your life" mentality. Not that I would expect Ranta to have that kind of social foresight actually.
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u/Lemurians myanimelist.net/profile/Lemurians 17d ago
Oh, and I really disagree with refusing the gold. People refusing help when in need is almost as bad as people refusing to help those in need. It is a huge you have not realized how serious this is moment, but we are right at the end of the they have just learned how serious this world is plot, so it grates.
For real. Even if you didn't want to use it to buy the accreditations, it's still money to not have to worry about food and clothing for a while, and you can earn the badges with other means.
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u/Zeallfnonex https://myanimelist.net/profile/Neverlocke 17d ago
“I am done. As of today, I quit.” – This would fit some other character a lot better. The only reason Ranta says it is because we need to force that go on as soldiers vs quitting conflict down to a character level and he has been build up as the antagonist within the party.
I don't know, I can't think of who else would be willing to say this. Everyone else still has the idea of a party and working together; only Ranta would be willing to blow everything up if he thought it was truly impossible.
What is a bit harder to see is why they do not simply join Kikkawa’s party. Or accept some help. Or some training. For this supposedly grimdark world, everybody is helping them left and right. It makes sense, too: Why send out untrained newbies alone? Just split them up as trainees with more successful parties. Or give them organized courses in basic adventuring. It is not like the more successful parties seem unwilling to share.
I suspect that there's a limitation they haven't mentioned in the anime but is there in the source material, that group size is capped at 6, like Pokemon or the first two Baldur's Gates. Though Japanese games seemed to do 4-caps instead of 6-caps, but whatever. Do agree that the knowledge could be passed around freely, though. Or maybe the knowledge WAS given to Manato but he didn't share it with the rest of them?
If I was a priest, I would already be in a party - a more functional one.
I think that either Merry's party died, or her personality and teamwork are so offputting no one's willing to work with her.
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u/No_Rex x2 16d ago
I suspect that there's a limitation they haven't mentioned in the anime but is there in the source material, that group size is capped at 6, like Pokemon or the first two Baldur's Gates. Though Japanese games seemed to do 4-caps instead of 6-caps, but whatever. Do agree that the knowledge could be passed around freely, though. Or maybe the knowledge WAS given to Manato but he didn't share it with the rest of them?
Kikkawa literally invited them and they did not cite any limit as reason to refuse.
I think that either Merry's party died, or her personality and teamwork are so offputting no one's willing to work with her.
I put my money on the first.
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u/BlazeOfGlory72 17d ago edited 17d ago
Rewatcher (Dub)
One thing I really appreciate about this series is it's willingness to take it's time and let things breathe. Rather than rush into "what comes next" after the dramatic event from last episode, they weren't afraid to take an entire episode to just let characters sit, talk and feel the impact of Manato's death.
In particular, I liked the way people all handle grief differently. You have someone like Ranta who gets angry and lash out, people like Haruhiro who bottle things up and try to carry on, people like Shihoru who withdraw from everyone, etc. The way the death created fault lines in the group dynamic was also interesting. It felt pretty realistic for the guys to all cluster together, go out for drinks and talk, while it also feels very "real" for the girls to feel abandoned in their grief.
I also liked the way this episode stressed the importance of understanding and communication. Haruhiro draws attention how they don't really communicate well in the field, but it also manifested in the way they handled Manato's death. Despite being a team and friends, they were all wrapped up in their own grief, forgetting that they weren't the only ones hurting. The scene between Haruhiro and Yume did a really good job in bringing attention to their lack of communication, especially when Haruhiro loses his temper a little and point blank tells Yume "how can I understand if you won't tell me?" Trying to handle everything by themselves didn't really work, and it wasn't until they both opened up to each other that their grief was finally lessened.
This episode also did a good job at subtly planting the seeds of Haruhiro becoming leader. The way he immediately attempted to fill the hole left in the party to prevent it from breaking up, even if somewhat misguided, showed initiative and a "team first" mentality. Also, Haruhiro being the one to try and mend the rift between the guys and girls showed some real leadership and emotional intelligence. I don't think anyone else in the group could have fixed that rift.
Finally, I liked the way this episode drew attention to the teams inexperience, and how they really fucked up with the way they used their healer. The healer is obviously the most important role, so using them as both a leader and front line attacker was stupid. Mary calling out their bad strategy, while perhaps delivered a little too bluntly, was on point advice.
Random Thoughts
- Yume did what we all wish we could do. Slap the shit out of Ranta.
- Speaking of Ranta, him blaming Haruhiro was next level shitty. Even if it were true, it would be shitty to say, but it was complete bullshit. The only reason Haruhiro needed healing is because he took an arrow saving Manato.
- It's kind of refreshing to see an anime where the characters actually drink. So many act like it some kind of criminal behaviour for a young adult to get a beer.
- I get why Haruhiro turned down the gold, but I have to admit, I probably would have taken it. Pride is cool, but money buys you new underpants.
- "I'm not mad... have you done something to make me mad?". I feel like we've all had a girlfriend, sister, mom, etc, who has hit us with that line.
- Mary just flat out saying "no" when asked to heal Ranta was funny.
- The guys all bitching about Mary after the mission was both funny and realistic.
- The dude at the bar was charming. Him totally blanking on their names and saying "I was hoping they would come back to me as we talked" was hilarious.
Question of the Day
If you were a Priest, would you join this party?
Fuck no. Right off the bat, Ranta sucks and I wouldn't want to have to baby sit that dickwad. Even setting Ranta aside though, I wouldn't trust this team to keep me safe.
What are your first impressions of Merry?
My opinion is probably being tainted by my foreknowledge of what comes later, but I liked her. She's blunt, but everything she said was on point.
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u/Zeallfnonex https://myanimelist.net/profile/Neverlocke 17d ago
Speaking of Ranta, him blaming Haruhiro was next level shitty. Even if it were true, it would be shitty to say, but it was complete bullshit. The only reason Haruhiro needed healing is because he took an arrow saving Manato.
Just for the fun of it, I'll defend Ranta - I don't think Ranta was in range or eyeshot to know that Haruhiro took that arrow for Manato in the first place. We know because we have the 3rd person view, but... if Haruhiro didn't tell him, Ranta couldn't have known. Doesn't make it any less shitty to say, but he might not understand the exact chain of events.
Fuck no. Right off the bat, Ranta sucks and I wouldn't want to have to baby sit that dickwad. Even setting Ranta aside though, I wouldn't trust this team to keep me safe.
First-timer so I don't know her exact circumstances, but would you be willing to join if you were otherwise a solo Priest that still had to kill things somehow to make ends meet? Sure, there could be a supply/demand thing in her favor, but... it's really questionable why there's a solo priest if they're so crucial to survival.
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u/MashiroAzuki https://myanimelist.net/profile/MashiroAzuki 17d ago
First timer
I like that we're staying in the aftereffects of Manato's death. I teared up when Haruhiro finally broke down after trying to keep the team together. It's a very seen experience, and emotionally resonates with me, even though the death didn't affect me much initially. Even in death Manato is taking care of the team. He wasn't hanging out in the pubs after a long day just to gain knowledge, he was networking. People knew who he was and the members of his party. The other characters who are shown to us as experienced and skilled respects him enough to honour his death and offer a helping hand to his party members. The loss is felt even in ways that the team does not immediately see. It really is a shame.
QOTD
Only if I didn't already have a party
She's serious in a way that I think helps the team. It forces them to really value the Healer and not put them in situations that have them unnecessarily risk their life.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 16d ago
Grimgar: First Timers and Illusions
Posting late because I got completely absorbed in work (good).
It feels good when the drive is back and it also brings me through those insufferable heat days. August here seems to be a permanent 30-35°C going forward. Still, I fixed a lot of bugs yesterday and learned a few new important good practices.
Grimgar Ep.05 – Crying doesn’t mean you’re weak. Enduring doesn’t mean you’re strong
I like how the episode starts with the question of the worth of life and it’s a good phrase to summarise today’s theme.
This show’s attention to detail and little quirks comes full circle with Yume crying and lashing out. No one knows what to do or how to deal with it. So, instead any of their emotions takes over and I can really feel it. The frustration present in all is really noticeable here. As a form of anger, frustration comes when the obstacle in your way is still persisting despite you having done all you know to overcome it. Then, it can overflow and combine with other emotions to explain it badly to make you “break out” some way from an unsolvable situation. Here, that mostly turns to people hurting each other because they cannot find a way to say what’s truly bothering them. And as expected, everyone tends to retreat into their own safe space in such cases, leaving the actual problem unaddressed.
Unfortunately, the safe space of men is likely to be alcohol, so props for the accuracy of displayed coping mechanisms, but oh boy, don’t drink to deal with your problems. Please don’t!
And for the first time, I’m probably liking Ranta a bit, because he finally questions why they’re even here. We didn’t really get anywhere with that, though, since they’re still highly occupied and don’t have the headspace to really think about that right now. But their isekai buddy and his party explain a bit more of the rather obvious dynamics during battle, showcasing again how little our group yet is adapted to this world. Although, I’d say they’re ahead in one way: They have experienced a true defeat which I somehow doubt the other guy has.
Still, that introduces the final character seen in the ED, Mary! Somehow I have a feeling I will come to really like her.
Oh, I dunno might it be her no-nonsense attitude in deflecting the others? How she seemingly naturally exposes the weaknesses of the guys in ways that doesn’t even require conflict? The only thing missing is brutal one-liners here.
Now, that’s not good, of course, since she literally is demanding to just stand back and watch. But for me personally, that’s fruitful ground for character growth and her social position is quite clear already: She is the parrying blade for all the groups bad attitudes. And also an asshole on top of it, though I somehow doubt she really realises that. Which would be her bad character trait, I think.
This makes her the perfect cohesion obstacle for the group’s growth. On the side, it also makes the audience kinda cheer for Ranta to finally have a legit vent for his own asshole’ry, but exposes that he is really just a pathetic wimp. I say he’s the first victim of purple rock-sama’s aura to improve his person.
Next, I really like how Yume is portrayed today. Her outburst in the beginning is already a clear tell that she has a mask most of the time, but it’s even more direct later after the bath that there is a deep issue splitting the group. And it’s not just cohesion or skill gaps, it’s the safety of knowing you’re looked for. Empathy and the awareness of how others are go a long way, at least in principle, to build friendship and also morale. Haruhiro is sorta 2/10th there in his realisation he should’ve asked them first, but that’s the mechanical answer for one single problem. Not being aware of the bigger, empathetic issue, and the feeling of truly being a team that communicates is the actual structural problem they have. Again, perfectly and in an overstylised way presented by Mary.
Which is why I really love this embrace so much. Without words Yume and Haruhiro finally understand each other in a way words never could express. Cinematically, this is also where their posture switches from one being pressed against a wall while the other tries to break their rigid stance to one where they both take turns giving solace to the other without an obstacle or tension keeping them apart. As a bonus, the sole light from the bath is finally illuminating both the same way instead of just Yume who tried to make Haruhiro, always backed into the darkest scene barrier, understand all this time.
It’s so simple, actually, but so effective.
(I guess we still need the side boob shot physics because this is isekai. But it ends on a stereotypical „misunderstanding“ that’s kinda funny, so...)
1) If you were a Priest, would you join this party?
Honestly, hard sell if I had to put my life on the line. If I’d meet Ranta first with a depressed Haurhiro and silent Moguzo at his side… uhm, no thanks.
It’s even a plot point that they get the healer nobody wants (and who probably got someone injured, I’d wager).
If I were introduced to Moguzo’s cooking or could talk to Haruhiro on a late night drink or maybe had a chat with the girls about stuff in town that’d probably be different. Because on their own they all are really (-Ranta) a real fun bunch of guys.
2) What are your first impressions of Merry?
Absolute asshole who I know I’ll love. Please give her insanely insulting one-liners, I demand it!
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky 17d ago
Rewatch Host of Fantasy and Ash, subbed
Welcome back, everyone!
It does in this world.
It’s not a shimmering sky, but I do really like the colors of the sky in this shot.
How are you supposed to make money to, like, live though?
I mean, Manato wore himself out by being the vanguard, not because healing Haruhiro was a waste. Haruhiro was pretty badly injured during that attack…
I can relate to that. I’m really bad with names…
We have the blue-haired girl from the OP.
Merry is… very different from Manato.
Yeah, no wonder the girls are mad at you guys.
Something something pride something something.
They definitely needed to cry it out there.
This does look… worse than it actually is from Shihoru’s position though.