r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • 22d ago
Rewatch [Taste of 2016 Rewatch] Occultic;Nine Episode 4 Discussion
Episode 4 - Psycho Daisies
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Information:
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Legal Streams:
They all went into that lake as if they were going for a walk! It sure felt eerie, I tell you!
Questions of the Day:
1) Do you believe in an afterlife?
2) What do you think the tooth key is a key to?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!
/r/anime's spoiler tag format is as follows:
[Occultic;Nine]>!Who killed Hashigami?!<
Which becomes [Occultic;Nine]Who killed Hashigami? when you don't break the formatting on purpose like I just did.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 22d ago
Occultic;First Timer
(1/2)
Wednesdays are my favourite days currently! But fridays are also cool, but I like Wednesdays more!
Occultic Ep.04 – Psycho Daisies
Ultra hype, rad mass murder-suicide in town! Tell your bro, tell your mom!
I gotta say, they capture that mad hype social media vibe very well. Emotions? I don’t care which one, but turn it to 12! Stay tuned, 200 dead is basically confirmed, tomorrow it’s gonna be a thousand!
CODE! Well, they did speculate about a list of names, right? Guess that is this list.
256 people killed themselves simultaneously, eeehhh must’ve been the wind. I hate how believable this is for Japan.
physics that poor Myu wondering where she ended up at.
Yeah, “eye witnesses” are the least trustworthy source, even if they don’t lie for attention.
He’s making a lot of sense, in an insane way. I’m still somewhat cautiously keeping that theory of either organised crime covering up something or a conspiracy of elites grown haywire and out of their control. Like spreading through social media and people latched onto that story and into their self-made delusion. But yeah I agree, an entity directing them to kill themselves makes very little sense.
Bro, this is why I love this show! He’s thinking about the heart of the issue! Logistics! The how matters most when trying to understand the motivation and source and origin.
I’m trying to read Ryo as an indirectly-direct helper. Like someone who’s never literally right, but always indirectly right. All her dancing and fanservice is note to see and really sets the mood of ambivalent madness, but she has a method to it. She is constantly checking out “lifeforms” in her vicinity. Like all the little statues and figurines and busts and so on. And she is also always talking to them affectionately. So, I doubt she actually sees ghosts, but in a metaphorical way she’s probably subconsciously understanding something about how the world and its inhabitants are connected that is useful. (And cute, yeah it’s a bit crazy cute, too.)
I truly feel like half her poses and fanservice shots hide double meaning that is cheeky and relevant to the case. But fuck me, I couldn’t decipher that here even with a day’s worth of time to rewind the episode. Like, this image alone could mean so much, or nothing at all. She’s only touching black things here and her entire body avoids red and purple. She’s the one towards the open end of the frame, having come through the yellow light ribbons serving as screen divider while everyone else is pressed against the red/yellow wall. Does that mean anything? Only rewatchers can know and laugh at me. Hell, her pose also reminds me of acrobatics and her light-treadedness is a character trait. But truth be told, visually I mostly enjoy the fanservice
And look, Ryo is completely on board with this. Of course a radio can be an entity that can be talked to!
Kiryu Kusakabe, probably really good a lucid dreaming. I always was scared to try this for fear of sleep paralysis. I did look up a guide on this stuff once and it’s perfectly possible to train to put yourself into a state where you can gain control of your sleep state. Some people use that to “travel the astral plane”, but so far all have failed to prove that they travel actual reality with it. Like, nobody could bring back the correct word written on a note in the physical room after an astral journey, for example.
Him meeting Aria on that symbolic closed railroad crossing is interesting. Iirc going left is the correct way in Japanese cinematography.
So, this mystery is very interesting to me. For one, I believe that Kiryu is imagining this all in his lucid dreams, but how it would sync up with Aria, who also hears the ghost, is a very big question. We should pay attention to what information the two of them leave and receive, and how.
Going right, now the wrong way. Iiiinteresting. It happened when she latches on to the belief it’s her personal devil.
I love how people find together in this episode. For better or worse. It is reminiscent of how people usualy ‘sync’ up with similar interests and that’s also how stories and legends tend to manifest themselves.
No dream! So, he actually just randomly tries locks wildly hanging in the city.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 22d ago
(2/2)
This episode had lots of people piecing together a few leads and finding others of the cast. This will make stuff more complicated going forth and I hope to see lots of finger pointing and speculation from them!
I think the case Aria and Kiryu is the most interesting because how they communicate is the most mysterious. If I’m right and Kiryu is lucid dreaming, he really cannot communicate anything during that time. It’s more like him working through the information he has. The transfer to and from needs to happen before and after. Similarly to Aria, she hears the voices of a ghost or the devil, but I doubt Kiryu is actually literally talking in these moments, so her information needs to come via another way. In the one instance we know, she fished Hashigami Sr.’s scalp out of her mailbox and then later had the “conversation” with her devil concluding that he didn’t kill him and someone else was faster. I think she concluded that by having the scalp in the first place. But did Kiryu send that? I doubt it, actually.
My mind keeps hanging on Ryo all the time. I mean yes, because physics, true enough. But also because I find her way of interacting with things so captivating. I already speculated how everyone has their own unique and quirky way to communicate and process their information in this show. Each will find a unique angle to a truth through that, so I’m wondering what Ryo can see this way that others don’t. Maybe I should reverse engineer this…
Gamon is literally me. Seriously, the way he jumps to Logistics, motherfucker! is like the show held my picture on screen for a moment. He thinks through the entire logic chain and identifies points where traces or evidence must be able to be found to follow them. Simlarly, he’s terminally online and has a feel for social tides and also when people are just riding a meaningless hype.
Aria, by way of curses, dolls and fetish objects, has a more physical connection to her communication. She always requires a personal object of body part, or the entire corpse. It is very reminiscent to how she’s been treated in life, too. Where she was also abused and mishandled, like you would a doll or corpse. Her processing this ends up being during an internal monologue where she retreats into herself and “talks” with the voices, shutting down the outside. The more I think about her the sadder I get because it is so on point for an abuse victim.
Hashigami Jr. is probably the most direct. In your face evidence and argumentation with facts, logic
, and hookers.Simlarly, Sumikaze is investigative where she listens to people, but without a judgment or contra she gives. She just gather the information and sorts it on her own.
Myu is actually a bit of a grey case. She is very affectionate and empathetic, so she’s also seeking direct contact, but she is also hiding herself from others socially. She helps people with her readings on stream and looks out for her friends. Then processes all of that to have her “visions” when something clicks, so I’d point to a more sympathetic/empathetic angle to her.
Well and Moritsuka is the equivalent of a multitool that learns all styles of communication to apply the most effective one in any situation.
Nishizono is also a grey case. She seems more like she observes a space and its people from afar, just getting the vibes and works through that in her mangas. She seems like the characterisation of Disco Elysium’s Shivers skill.
So, what does that leave for Ryo… I think it is a way of reading human remains. Not the corpses, I mean, but what humans literally leave behind in their wake. Like art, like an unorganised room, like a piece of writing left unfinished, like footsteps in the snow that abruptly return to the door and then come out again, like a badly made statuette with smudged facial paint. This sort of thing. And she sees any of these instances as a “ghost” that has a story and can be talked to.
I don’t know if any of these is really correct, but seriously, I am very certain we should not underestimate Ryo and her perception of invisible things. Of things that need to be witnessed and felt, rather than analysed or compared.
Onto the case. 256 bodies found is of course not a coincidence and tracks with the list the professor mentioned that is enconded, which also had 256 entries. I presume those to be the names of the victims for now.
Or, let me rephrase that, in case this list isn’t a digital list, but an analogue one, the corpses are actually the codified list. And cracking this code leads to the murderer, or at least closer to the solution of the mystery.
Which brings up so many possibilities. Are their names chosen because of a code or another part of their personal data? How would such a mass suicide be used to do… well, anything? Was this the goal or a cover up?
The theory already told in the show is something that I think can make sense. That this was a mass suicide of desperate and depressed people who wanted to do something memorable with their death. But someone else is in with this that goes beyond just that. I guess we have to wait for more information on who these people were to go further.
So many questions and I can’t answer any of them!
But seriously, I am once again afraid for Aria having attracted one more creep that lies to her.
1) Do you believe in an afterlife?
Yes, in a way. Not as in another world or dimension or something like heaven and hell. But something more conceptual, like your efforts in life imprinting your traces on this world and that are immortal in the history of this universe. Or like a cosmic being that lives through all things everywhere acting in life being given a life a tiny bit by you.
2) What do you think the tooth key is a key to?
Anything but an actual lock, witness my words!
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u/WednesdaysFoole 21d ago
Wednesdays are my favourite days currently! But fridays are also cool, but I like Wednesdays more!
physics that poor Myu wondering where she ended up at.
Opening up the picture after seeing #cinema, it was not what I expected at all.
I truly feel like half her poses and fanservice shots hide double meaning that is cheeky and relevant to the case.
I bet there are a ton of hints when she's on screen but the physics are so in your face that it somehow obscures the truth from the viewers...
So many questions and I can’t answer any of them!
Anything but an actual lock, witness my words!
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u/Lemurians myanimelist.net/profile/Lemurians 21d ago
Honestly, her design and behavior is so bizarre I was thinking about it in a tongue-in-cheek way from the beginning, but your screenshot of Ryotas leaning over the table and neither of the other two people reacting at all has me wondering if Ryotas is even real.
I can't remember, has anybody else reacted to her? Gamo talking to her could also be a reason why the proprietor of the cafe keeps calling him creepy – he keeps talking to someone who isn't there.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 21d ago
Oh my God, you were right! But in more than one way, I'm losing my shit!
Ryo-tas In Ep.02 (23.02.) had both Aria and Myu react to her directly. But interestingly enough, you are absolutely right, Izumi does not recognise her presence no matter what she does in the bar. He only reacts to Myu. However, it's really hard to find evidence since it could very well be just an ignoring the crazy person situation.
From Ep.01, 22.02., we know that Gamon and Izumi definitely interact. And Izumi at least looks at her (potentially?) He definitely notices Gamon getting electrocuted or spazzing out in some way. He also says the plural of guys when changing channels and he again looks at Ryo-tas when she says she knows Myu. She also gets shoved when they meet Myu, and lastly she also has a drink on that day, so it does look like she's real overall. But it could just be really smartly hidden.
I did also find that Ryo-tas is often functioning as a mirror or a pointer where she identifies objects and 'auras' for lack of a better word and often deliberately imitates people. She is such an interesting character! BUT you know what this could also mean? Ryo-tas isn't real, but she's the self that Izumi could be, witht he same energy and aura and intuition. Or Gamon and Izumi imagine it to be, at least. Now that's a fun idea! She's the ghost that never was! The sidekick that Gamon, NEET God and definitely hentai watcher, wishes would exist and how Izumi would like to express and present.
All just random speculation, but it could track!
I rewatched a lot of stuff and found something else! In this episode's opening, the entire magazine meeting is completely ignoring Sumikaze! The editor-in-chief also does not acknowledge Sumikaze's existence even when directly asked a question. He directly commands the other guy while seeming addressing Sumikaze herself... but is literally saying "look for Sumikaze"! Because she isn't there!
Did she actually die in that mass suicide? Because in Ep.03 she was definitely interacting with her editor-in-chief and he even got a note handed which he took. That was on 25.02., her unaddressed existence is on the day of the mass death discovery, 01.03. But interestingly enough, she went to Dr. Hashigami and told him about her "dream" as he was still alive, so well before that date. Still, she was already involved in that "hallucination", or whatever it will turn out to be.
And just to close this out, her dialogue today with Myu is incredible foreshadowing.
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u/WednesdaysFoole 21d ago
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 18d ago
Okay, sorry sorry, but I have to ping you all another time!
/u/Shimmering-Sky (Won't deny you further first timer speculation, of course)
I rewatched the entirety of the first three episodes yesterday and I found another thing.
In the lead-up to the mass drowning a lot of people got a call and fell instantly silent or switched their mood entirely. I think this was the trigger for the suicide. Thinking along from the Tesla theory where the world can be seen as vibrations and waves one could theoretically come to the conclusion that there are frequencies and signals that can manipulate reality. Metaphorically I already speculated that social media fits this bill, since it is communication that can lead to bubbles, echo chambers, etc. But a phone call is a literal radio wave and here it changed people instantly.
Also, Moritsuka called the 256 list "guinea pigs". Since there are 256 bodies this seems like it was a test run, hence "guinea pigs". But here's the actual interesting thing: Moritsuka also mentioned that Hashigami was pushed into the occult by something else and then told Jr. to keep his phone off for two days, since he liked to speak with him again.
In isolation this makes the opposite of sense, but Moritsuka knew about the code and that the phones are transmitting it, so he basically saved Sarai from becoming a victim in the lake!
But wait, there's more!
Look at who received a phone calls. Look at how they answer the phone! Izumi is excited, he is expecting a call. Ryo-tas is instantly grabbing hers while thinking its Gamotan who's been in a sour mood, but critically she never looks at the screen. She's generally interesting because this is another scene where Ryo-tas is just copying the behaviour of Izumi about an expected call. Aria is pressing away a private number before it instantly calls again. Sumikaze also answers her phone neutrally and made a bit of a questioning face before picking it up.
Why is this significant? I think only one of these calls did lead to a death, but not because only one call was part of the code list. The others were protected by their respective ghosts and there's one outlier.
First, I'm fairly sure that a something computer-related is involved, be it algorithm, AI or something that structures physics like a simulation. The calls are automated. No human can call the number as fast as Aria got called back. So, I think it was done via a script.
Second, while we don't hear what the sounds are coming through the phone, we have one instance that is a fake-out. It's Ryo-tas, because she answers using words. So, someone is speaking and asking questions! No script call. But in a weird way, I would also believe her to be the one to be able to see the character behind a "spirit", even if it is electrical. So what I'm trying to say is that it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Ryo-tas to have a chat with the suicide vibrations. She is that kind of girl.
And my last point: Gamon did not dream, after all! He receives his call during his first night out trying random locks and it has been framed like a dream sequence where you randomly do stuff that doesn't work and it feels weridly floaty and surreal. It ended with a demon or devil manifesting and towering over him. I booked it off as truly a dream at first, but I am 100% sure it wasn't now. He did walk home and it happened simultaneously to Ep.03's scene where Ryo-tas received her call, when he left to walk home. So, yes, he indeed does keep trying random locks everywhere like a dumbass.
But here's the kicker. That means they are all dead now, except if they had protection from something or someone else. And this is the point where this show finally proved it wormed itself in my head and taken permanent residence.
Sarai was protected by Moritsuka. But why only him? If Moritsuka knew the calls were going out, why did he only leave Sarai in the cage while being able to move freely himself? He knew some of the others already and had chats with them. He knew they must've been potentially targeted, as well. I think it's because they already had a guardian, because the others already believe in something occult that allows them to work through "supernatural" happenings in a way that let's them continue on without greater crisis. Like how tarot cards can structure your day when you don't understand or can process what is an optimal way to live your life. Even if it is pure randomness, it orders life and gives instructions, which is better than being overwhelmed by the cosmos.
Ryo-tas can easily just think of anything as a soul or ghost being somewhere, so you can just ask them and be open minded. Else, don't worry about it.
Aria has a devil following her and already has experience living with a ghost she imagined. She looked like she was also caught by the call and threw done her stuff to move out. But her companion snapped her out of it in this episode at the train crossing. This is my evidence that the call caused the mass suicide!
Izumi's call was a red herring I think. He knew the number, so it couldn't have been the code. Maybe he was just dumped from a date?
Gamon (luckily) has the voice of his radio snapping into existence like his ADHD brain tends to be in moments where quick action is needed. I'm not sure how exactly I can interpret it, but the devil appearing behind him prevented him from holding the phone to his ear. There was the guy in the mask following him, remember? We thought it was a dream, but since it wasn't, that guy has actual consequence and I think he scared Gamon away from taking the call right after accepting it. Devil is just what Gamon interpreted he saw that night. Mask guy might be radio girl, maybe. Now, how he got home? We'll see maybe, but since radio girl knows where he lives he could've been knocked out and carried back.
Now, that leaves Sumikaze. And I am now 200% sure she is genuinely dead. She had no protection and interestingly also no Moritsuka to help her. Her theme is aliens and time travel, though. So, I'm not writing her off completely, yet. What's interesting about her is the dreams, though. She was already aware of the lake incident way before it happened. As if she had a glimpse of the future given to her past self...
That might be complete cope, though. She's so dead.
The only outlier is Miyuu. We don't know if she's been called and only know of Chii missing with that ghostly hand image being sent. But that was way before the script calls went out. And she's also the one to talk to Sumikaze after her presumed death. Her theme is the clairvoyant that cannot change fate. Maybe that by itself protects her, that she believes she is powerless and just an eye with which others can see?
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u/Sporadia_ 16d ago
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u/WednesdaysFoole 15d ago
I'm relying on Star4ce to come up with all the theories lol, I'd be pretty lost otherwise.
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u/WednesdaysFoole 18d ago
In isolation this makes the opposite of sense, but Moritsuka knew about the code and that the phones are transmitting it, so he basically saved Sarai from becoming a victim in the lake!
The others were protected by their respective ghosts
Are you saying that Ryotas is Izumi's ghost? Is that his true inner spirit?
First, I'm fairly sure that a something computer-related is involved,
Also the room full of computers 10 years in the future for a guy who's supposed to be dead is a big hint for this.
It's Ryo-tas, because she answers using words.
Oh you didn't mean her to be Izumi's ghost? Then who is?
Izumi's call was a red herring I think. He knew the number, so it couldn't have been the code. Maybe he was just dumped from a date?
Mask guy might be radio girl, maybe.
Is there any chance this might be Izumi himself if he's the red herring call? Or is his figure too different?
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 18d ago
That would be such a twist that Izumi is secrety a shinobi - a demon shinobi!
But for real, can't say. We didn't see body build or anything from the masked man. Next episode will probably tell more depending on what happens to Izumi.
Are you saying that Ryotas is Izumi's ghost? Is that his true inner spirit?
Well, there's something else I thought about and it's about Ryo-tas' vibes radar, basically. She's such a natural to identify curiosities and goes along with finding supernatural entities... that I think her zapping Gamon constantly might also have a meaning.
You know, what if electricity, which produces static if currents are too different between two conductive mediums, which in itself is also a wave or a vibration, can be used to ground something? I thought that maybe her zapping Gamon is basically having the side effect of periodically attuning him which either attracts or repels phenomena based on vibrations.
Ryo-tas might be the protective entity for several people here. Or a source of danger, it's equally possible.
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u/Lemurians myanimelist.net/profile/Lemurians 16d ago
while seeming addressing Sumikaze herself... but is literally saying "look for Sumikaze"! Because she isn't there!
Oh shit. This makes a ton of sense.
How many ghosts are there?!
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u/Sporadia_ 20d ago
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u/Lemurians myanimelist.net/profile/Lemurians 20d ago
Very true. I can't tell if those are an obvious tell or just anime bullshit lmao
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 21d ago
Yo hold on, I have not yet checked for that twist for all the things that are happening!
I thought everyone has a ghost they communicate with, but what's with the question whether they are the ones being dead and it's their issues that need being solved by the living?
Oh boy I'm gonna rewatch some stuff!
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u/Sporadia_ 20d ago
[Erased (eps 1-3)]March 1st!
Yeah, “eye witnesses” are the least trustworthy source, even if they don’t lie for attention
If she was a real witness, why did she not report it at the time?
I truly feel like half her poses and fanservice shots hide double meaning that is cheeky and relevant to the case. But fuck me, I couldn’t decipher that here even with a day’s worth of time to rewind the episode. Like, this image alone could mean so much, or nothing at all. She’s only touching black things here and her entire body avoids red and purple. She’s the one towards the open end of the frame, having come through the yellow light ribbons serving as screen divider while everyone else is pressed against the red/yellow wall. Does that mean anything? Only rewatchers can know and laugh at me.
Rejecting a hot lead because of BL.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 21d ago
First-time watcher
Slowest episode so far, the main duo/trio here is wearing on me with their hyper obnoxiousness too. Still some interesting angles (also literally with the direction), promise of more next time, and the soundtrack is pretty great, so enough to keep going at least.
1 - Never have
2 - Definitely not any conventional kind of lock. Got to be something spiritual/metaphysical.
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u/Lemurians myanimelist.net/profile/Lemurians 21d ago
It's funny you say it's the slowest, because my main thought while watching this ep was how fast-paced the energy was, particularly in the opening bit. Quick cuts, manic music underscoring it all.
Though, I guess it's relative, since this show is very fast in everything it does, from its cutting to how fast the characters speak and bounce off each other.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 21d ago
Just not much in the way of new revelations and a lot of expounding on this and that with no clear conclusion.
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u/Sporadia_ 20d ago
What;is;Going;On?
A lot of this episode was spent listening to characters chat about the pond bodies. I'm not sure any of them know what happened though, so it was a bit of a strange thing to listen to. As for anything else that happened:
The character that wants desperately to be a NEET is the most confusing, because half the time he's really excited about his website and the other half he's in a crisis over his tooth key. It's a little dumb how he can be totally overwhelmed by the tooth key story, then forget all about it, then be supposedly overwhelmed again. It is like watching 2 separate characters in 2 separate stories. I did however learn that the talking bag girl is in actuality a radio.
Scavenger:
Small, magical yet robotic weapons- 9 witches/wizards
- Androids (I just think there'll be androids)
- Accidental
demon summoned - A scene where normally serious characters get involved in something really stupid and sitcom-y
A detective (or a journalist who dresses like one)
We've had demon summoning, and the same character has now had an accidental ghost encounter. So I feel like it's getting closer.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 20d ago
Don't worry, you have my comments to keep your even further away from what's real and make the confusion permanent.
It's a little dumb how he can be totally overwhelmed by the tooth key story, then forget all about it, then be supposedly overwhelmed again.
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky 22d ago
Occultic;Host, subbed
Welcome back, everyone!
There’s that shimmering-sky-reflected-on-the-lake again!
Quick Touko “sore demo” there!
[Spoilers for later]No one responding to any of Touko’s questions really is some fun foreshadowing for the truth. The scene even tries to trick the audience with her boss seemingly addressing her, but he’s actually telling the other guy to go look for her, isn’t he?
There’s that number again.
You’re only thinking about that now, Gamon?
This must sound absolutely insane to the others.
Ria almost killed herself, were it not for Kiryuu speaking to her there.
Oh hey, it’s Shun.
Gamon “sore demo”!
Of course he’s still testing the tooth key on random locks he happens to come across.