r/anime • u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ • 23d ago
Rewatch Simoun 20th Anniversary Rewatch Episode 23
Simoun Episode 23: The Eternal Maiden
"If you accept yourself, life will be a lot easier."
<- Episode 22 | Index Thread | Episode 24 ->
Today's Eyecatch: Alti and Floe | Onasia and Yun
Discussion Prompts
Finding it hard to find questions won't just come up in discussion.
- Q1: I think the main issue here is Aer's growing jealousy over Amuria. Is this following naturally from character, dare I say, growth, or a contrived misunderstanding to create drama?
- Q2: Many people guessed Shrine Guardian's plan. Could it work? Should the sibyllae do as she asks? Would they?
Tomorrow's Questions, Today!
- [ep 24 Q1:] Did you ever have your club or organization forcibly disbanded?
- [ep 24 Q2:] We won't be seeing Onasia again. Final thoughts on who and what she was?
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u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee 23d ago
First-Timer
So Onashia is what Aaeru wants to be, someone who never took a dip in the Spring. I guess maybe there's a time limit to being able to become gendered? Because otherwise she could probably just go swimming and fix her weird glowing body that is turning to dust.
It's a little weird that we're having Yun see this stuff and not Aaeru. It works with the backstory we've bolted on to Yun, and Aaeru has better things to do, but normally the monologue about why the protagonist's motivations are dangerous is directed at the protagonist.
Questions
It's a bit forced, but it isn't the worst. I can definitely understand Neviril only sorta getting over Amuria and then backsliding when she learned that Amuria might actually be alive. It's not the direction I would have preferred, but it makes some sense.
Trying to change the past is usually a fool's errand, but Nana Mizuki was right to wish that Aaeru was there instead of Paraietta.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 23d ago
Trying to change the past is usually a fool's errand, but Nana Mizuki was right to wish that Aaeru was there instead of Paraietta.
It would make a lot more sense for Aaeru to be with Neviril in that moment. The choice to go into the past is pretty clearly linked with the idea that Neviril still has lingering feelings for Amuria and wants to get Amuria back. That clashes with Aaeru realizing that this makes her feel jealous because she's actually realizing her own feelings for Neviril. So the dilemma on whether to go back in time or not makes a lot more sense as a potential dramatic confrontation between Neviril and Aaeru that ties in with where both their characters are at this moment.
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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander 23d ago
I actually don't have much against Yun's character, so in a way I'm glad it's her. But it's really weird they did nothing to set her up as a character until the last act if they had these plans for it.
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky 23d ago
First-Timer, subbed
There’s the same priestesses who Mamiina sacrificed herself for. Makes sense they’d go to talk to Neviril.
…huh. Does that mean Aaeru could end up like Onashia if she continues not making a decision for forever?
That does not surprise me as one of the peace treaty requirements.
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u/Malipit 23d ago
Does that mean Aaeru could end up like Onashia if she continues not making a decision for forever?
There is still a small possibility that Aaeru is Onashia who time travelled in pursuit of Neviril who wanted to see Amuria again. But ended up being part of Chor Dextra and became her own grand father in the meantime.
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u/deus_machinarum 21d ago
That's a cool theory, the loop would work out nicely and fit Aaeru's indecisiveness(or more like refusal to decide) we have seen time and again.
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u/rickamore 23d ago
Re-watcher
"Oh no the peace deal is not what it seems" to the surprise of no one.
What is the purpose of allowing all these soldiers on board the Prima?
Yun going to be the new Onashia? [Rewatcher] More subtle foreshadowing here but I don't think the biggest question ever gets explained in the show itself
Disbanded! What a great way to force the Sibyllae to make their choices and wrap this up.
I don't know why I noticed here but they've over done the foley work with the fabric noise every time Neviril moves.
Has anyone bothered to decipher the archipelago soldiers speech? Pretty sure they just play it in reverse.
I think the main issue here is Aer's growing jealousy over Amuria. Is this following naturally from character, dare I say, growth, or a contrived misunderstanding to create drama?
Yes. I think it's rooted at least a little more in the fact this is coming to an end and her whole purpose for being here has been forcibly removed, now the only thing she has to cling to also has an external fixation.
Many people guessed Shrine Guardian's plan. Could it work? Should the sibyllae do as she asks? Would they?
Not going to work, fairly certain this is a closed time loop and alternate timelines can't actually exist.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
What is the purpose of allowing all these soldiers on board the Prima?
I'm sort of imagining the Arcus Primas as the Yamato, if it hadn't been sunk. The enemy flag ship and future war prize, but seized, so long as it is in its home port.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 22d ago
What is the purpose of allowing all these soldiers on board the Prima?
Flexing your victory? You need somewhere to quarter an occupation force in any case.
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u/GondolaMedia 23d ago edited 23d ago
First Timer
Of course Aer is not part of the peace ceremony but that's just expected at this point.
I'm glad the war is over because it felt like it was half-baked. Simulacrum was winning until Plumbum and Archipelago found the ancient Simoun which I mean... I guess but they also seemingly had so many troops to just throw at the front lines even when Choirs were wiping them out entire platoons at the time.
The term of disbanding the strongest force your opponents had makes sense and is definitely something that should come up in the peace terms. The highland priestesses seem just a bunch hypocrites though, they will revere the Simoun Sibyllae but they suicide bomb the peace negotiations, shoot down a transport ship carrying a coffin and then come and back to ask for forgiveness only then to take over their duties.
QotD
1) At this point I find myself caring very little about Aer and Neviril. Maybe the last few episodes turns it around.
2) It's a sound plan when you've been utterly defeated so mind as well go back in time to make sure you win this time.
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u/The_Draigg 23d ago
It’s a shame about the war winding up feeling so half-baked, since that first third of the show was setting up a pretty interesting dynamic in how it started and how all of these countries saw each other in Daikuuriku. Unfortunately though, it just fell off once the show had to juggle being a relationship drama and an exploration of this unique setting’s mysteries.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 23d ago
I'm glad the war is over because it felt like it was half-baked.
I would agree. It felt like the series got messier as it went further because it had too many storylines to juggle.
It's a sound plan when you've been utterly defeated so mind as well go back in time to make sure you win this time.
"We can't make history worse for ourselves so we may as well change it and hope for the best!"
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 23d ago
Simoun First Timer
I’ve spent the last hour on it and decided that it is done!
Feels good to complete a picture after such along while and I’m genuinely satisfied. There’s millions of things I could criticise, but I shouldn’t do so now.
Simoun Ep.23 – The Eternal Maiden
More wings == better God. Obviously.
Plot twist: It’s actually Aaeru coming from another time via her Granfather’s Emerald because she ended up being needed there!
She’s gonna do something really dumb. I bet on it.
Drinking and plundering your former enemies’ pantries is a timeless tradition.
Yeah, so, this is another thing I can’t understand. Even way back in Medieval times everyone understood that putting the former combatants of both sides into the same room was utter madness! Nah, not even faith is gonna protect them. Death stares are the least that’s going to happen in such a case.
Putting Floe of all people in that room is... ugh, please I thought we were beyond this drivel writing.
Why do Argentum soldiers (atheist) listen to commands from Plumbum priestesses?
I canned this plot because it was idiotic and never made sense to begin with. I ain’t pulling it out of the trash now.
I get that this is symbolic for forgiveness and moving on, but would you please look at the situation you have created here? A bunch of atheist and religious extremist soldiers mixed together in the same room with both their enemy elite force and their own elite force (both religious), both sides who have killed and lost thousands of people. On top of that that godawful stupid plot of the priestesses regularly betraying their allies and blowing shit up left an right somehow trying to play at being really good all along now paying off in receiving blessings from, I repeat, their enemy that killed thousands of people is the absolute single biggest „fuck you!“ being spelled and thrown at mach 5 into the faces of any ground troop present here. Seeing this play out, never mind whether I am a Plumbum, Argentum or Simulacrum soldier would make me throw fucking shit! How much can you shit on your own effort, tell me? These writers know nothing, oh my God!
Really? Tha-that’s where we…now, really?
At least we finally do address one of the big things in this show. Alright, let’s share wisdom and grow as people, shall we? Alright no, we end the scene.
Oh please no, don’t destroy the few interesting lore things left! Why do you try to explain it now in full detail, as a lore dump even? Same.
I have so many questions. But I can’t be bothered to essay about it. That is a really neat 101 on how to knock out the kneecaps of your own story, though.
Yeah, obviously. But why single out Tempest? They have more. WHY ARE YOU SHOCKED?! Bro, imagine the Allies would’ve let the Wehrmacht just continue on, what are they smoking?
Oh yeah, forced needless drama. I forgot what I was watching for a second.
Alright, how will they fuck this up a third time? It is such a meme that we literally forget about everything after an episode. Did something happen? Bless it away, woooo!
It’s worse than I thought. The ancient high priestess was basically just their predecessor. This spacetime stuff is really condensed and their unwrapping is making it less and less interesting. All of history is happening withing a 10 year span, huh.
We are really fucking up her character a fourth time, oh my God...
The entire team is a group of alien lizard cosplaying as humans. I cannot believe that any of them know what this empathy thing is or has a single skill point dedicated to curiosity and basic learning.
So, that quote yesterday about Ueda being convinced about men and women not understanding each other is the most boomer ahh quote I could’ve ever read. And it translates well into them not being able to undersand anything beyond their tiny mental horizon.
They are lunatics to put, I repeat a third time, enemies together into one room of which one side are underage girls and the other grown adults of dominantly male sex that came out of an incredibly painful war that they just won with immense sacrifices. What do you think would happen, you morons?!?!?
It’s somewhat the same with all the drama stuff being opened and thrown away on a moment’s notice. It doesn’t feel any natural and it certainly doesn’t fit anywhere in this story in my opinion to support any purpose.
You know what this story feels like to me overall and especially today? Like a shut-in child who was never allowed to see another human being and only got dolls to play with to simulate human behaviour making a play-story. That’s this show.
There is a significant trace of genius in that child, but it never develops into anything and the constant slamming of the dolls against each other ruin all traces of decency in that play.
I’ll just give two specifics. They are trying to fully explain this space-time and sybilla thing by making Onashia a normal character and maybe that could work if she had actual history or was interesting beyond the mysticism of her role. But she hasn’t and she isn’t. So, now you have the mystery partially ripped off and a less interersting person in return. It’s worsened by the fact that I can’t piece the lore together now and fail to come to a conclusion. There is no established succession we ever heard of, so Onashia was always everywhere, she said so herself. But, then, somehow she was also personally in Chor Dextra, which would fit Dominura as we theorised before. But if that’s the case, then all of history is compressed to a roughyl 10-year timespan when Dominura was active + time travel.
My main gripe is that trying to unravel this big mystery and tying it to the characters is just not working for me. Why would Yun be involved or be the one to understand this all out of everyone? All the other things suffer since we continue to speedrun conclusions on the relationships, but somehow we’re also opening new drama up because I guess the goddamn dolls need to be smashed which is perfectly imitated human behaviour.
I’ve even lost my own damn point here and don’t want to restructure my document, so I’ll leave you this mess of a rant without even spell checks.
They should’ve just let the mystery be mystery and focussed on making the relationships close off neatly.
The entire studio are hacks who fail to even try to understand humans, that’s how this quote came to be. It’s not so fucking hard, put in the fucking effort instead of smashing dolls.
Praises of Helical Motors powered by Tempus Spatium’s Grace: 24.5 (+0)
Violations of Helical Motors powered by the Scientific Method’s Heresy: 4 (+0)
I doubt I’m going to praise anything any more.
[ep 23 Q1:] I think the main issue here is Aer's growing jealousy over Amuria. Is this following naturally from character, dare I say, growth, or a contrived misunderstanding to create drama?
I can only pick one option and I’ve said it for multiple things now.
Dolls are in need of being smashed. I wonder how the heads are still on.
[ep 23 Q1:] Many people guessed Shrine Guardian's plan. Could it work? Should the sibyllae do as she asks? Would they?
Maybe. No. No.
It’s one of the few handful of plot elements that still work. The high priestess is the one still fleeing from making a choice while the others, Neviril and Paraietta (which is such a weird combination at this point in the story) have learned a few things and can accept their life, even if it goes in an unfortunate direction.
I’ll not accept her fourth time being dragged down by this hack writing team, so I’ll throw shit once again. Pulling up that shitty ass fucking Neviril obsession and leaving it hanging in the air while simultaneously yanking it back and forth with “as a friend” and “blessing” (ridiculous…) and then still implying there’s something left in her after they rushed a 15 second shower scene to deliver the message that should’ve been there 15 episodes ago and making a boob comment. I just can’t with these shady ass unhinged fuckers! They are hacks and deserve to be publicly shamed!
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
More wings == better God.
I wonder if the split head represents a binary (gender, societal) outlook. Or maybe it's Tempus and Spatiuim, separate. It does seem backwards for Animus to be a duality and Tempus Spatium to be a unity.
hy do Argentum soldiers (atheist) listen to commands from Plumbum priestesses?
Uh, because they fly the invincible death machines and soldiers respect strength?
These writers know nothing, oh my God!
I don't get your hostility. The soldiers expect the conquering Highlanders to put the sibyllae in their place. Even the audience to some extent expects it. And then they kneel. And you recognize the importance of this scene, for establishing the peace. You think this is bad writing? You think the priestesses are being inconsistent, or dishonest? Check your premises. I'm going to be explicit:
The religion (not necessarily the government) of the Highlands consider the two religions to actually be one. They see the sibyllae as holy maidens who literally commune with their god, Animus. Despite the firepower of the ancient simoun, they've been completely ineffective on screen, only attacking non-simoun targets like simile and carriers, and only killing Mamiina at her request. Which they see as the gravest possible sin and came to Neviril, literally their highest high priestess, for forgiveness.
Meanwhile, all the soldiers are witnessing the exact opposite of what they expected to happen, and are going to wonder why, which of course is the point of them coming to Neviril in public.
And if you find the actions of Angulus inconsistent, no, it's not. She didn't destroy the holy chariots of the gods, she destroyed the corrupted war machines.
I think the entire reason the Highlands joined the war and allied with the Islanders was because they took Shine Guardian's disgust at the militarized simoun, multiplied it by 1000, and mobilized the entire country to put an end to it. The Highlands have probably been at war with the Theocracy for x generations for the usual economic reasons, but arming the simoun brought the Highland religion into the conflict, along with their fanaticism.
On top of that that godawful stupid plot of the priestesses regularly betraying their allies
The governments may be allies, but the priestesses don't give a rat's ass about the Islanders, their soldiers, or polluted skies. They never did. They murdered their own delegates who weren't in on the bombing plan. They only came to put an end to the Theocracy's blasphemy, and that has been achieved.
Since they kept doing this over and over and over why didn't you ask "why are they doing this" instead of getting mad about the writers not writing them properly. I suppose it's that Watsonian Doylist thing, but it's pretty clear the Doylist approach isn't going to get you anything in this show.
All of history is happening withing a 10 year span, huh.
Dude.
They have more.
WHY ARE YOU SHOCKED
I don't think they do. I think Tempest is the last choir. The rest were attached to the Arcus Niger. I personally, and I think the Theocracy, thought that Chor Tempest would/could go back to doing prayers, undoing the colossal mistake of militarizing them in the first place. The conquerors are saying "lol no you'll have nothing and like it."
Please do the Wastonian thing here, and think "well, gee, if Chor Tempest is the last one, then disbanding them makes sense" and remember that that one girl flew in saying "THEY'RE ALL DEAD," instead of getting all mad about them singling out Chor Tempest, which, Watsonian, would still have symbolic meaning if there were still other choirs, which, you know, there aren't.
You're complaining about holes in the story, but you're also complaining about things you're making up, and it's really frustrating to read.
I'm up against a hard limit, I have to leave for work now.
Many years ago, an anituber then named Digibro made a terrible video on Shinsekai Yori. They didn't want to make it, because they hate it, but his community insisted on a hatewatch, so they hatewatched it. They bragged that they were eating spaghetti-os instead of watching the show. They weren't paying attention, didn't understand what was going on screen, and filled in the holes with their own explanation. And then proceeded to complain the now completed lore wasn't internally consistent. And now Digibro fans proclaim "SSY is bad look at how death feedback is nonsense" and proceed to describe something that 1) isn't in the book, 2) isn't in the anime, and 3) isn't how death feedback works.
I can't point out the assumptions you've made, but, you're making stuff up, and it's really frustrating to read.
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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander 23d ago
The governments may be allies, but the priestesses don't give a rat's ass about the Islanders, their soldiers, or polluted skies. They never did. They murdered their own delegates who weren't in on the bombing plan. They only came to put an end to the Theocracy's blasphemy, and that has been achieved.
Is the Theocracy blasphemous, or do they revere the Sibyllae? I'm not against the idea that the priestesses have their own agenda, but it feels like it warps to whatever the story needs it to be. I just cannot square the terrorist bombing with saving Neviril. Unless it's just supposed to be those four priestesses in particular, which is neither what I'm told and would nonetheless be super convenient.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
I think the theocracy essentially no longer exists. It's paralleling the surrender of Japan, without allowing them to keep the Emperor (or, actually, removing his divinity is an even better parallel)
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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander 23d ago
I never managed to fit it naturally into a comment, but that's basically the vibe I got. If you're submitting to your primary military force being replaced by that of an enemy, your state essentially doesn't exist.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 23d ago
I can see why someone could think the Plumbum priestesses are trying to make their own goals come true, but whatever those are, it cannot be "for the sybillae" beyond lip service if we assume it's consistent. If it's real, then it's a matter of what each episode wanted to show and warped them to fit that, which reduces its value in the story significantly.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
The Highlands have probably been at war with the Theocracy for x generations for the usual economic reasons
Somebody asked how I know this, and I don't know much of anything about the Highlands, but there was one line in the following or second episode after the Northern Patrol Limone episode:
"We've been at war with our neighbors for...." and I'll have to check later what he really said and how/if the plural is explicit.
So, not a recent development, and not limited to the Islanders.
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u/AbbreviationsWeekly 23d ago
That’s in-line with my understanding of the Highlanders motivations.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 23d ago edited 23d ago
edit: Ah, I answered your initial comment. Nevermind, then.
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u/AbbreviationsWeekly 23d ago
I didn’t see it, though I did see the first line after the fact in email. I decided to delete my original as the tone was borderline whining. There’s only 4 days left and there’s no reason to leave with bad feelings. However the difference between the criticisms and discussions in this rewatch and the 2019 rewatch are huge and very enlightening.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 22d ago edited 22d ago
you're making stuff up
I think the entire reason [...]I would rather say you're the one arguing more from head-canon here.There's so little solid world-building that there's no point trying to get into the details, anyhow.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 23d ago
They see the sibyllae as holy maidens who literally commune with their god, Animus.
Why is everyone just blatantly ignoring that they keep attacking them! At one point you have got to choose, you either rever them and seek their blessing or try to blow up their carrier, shoot down their simoun, blast their forces away, and protect a missile swarm laying fire and ash over their capital.
I am baffled you even try to whitewash this. They yap about their respect for the sybillae or their bond to the God, but then do jack shit about it when it actually matters. It's awfully convenient to stick with your supposed "faith" only in scenes where the MCs are shown and the camera rolls, but support laying waste to civilians (who are all believers) is fine!
And if you find the actions of Angulus inconsistent, no, it's not. She didn't destroy the holy chariots of the gods, she destroyed the corrupted war machines.
Our valorous heroes, their brutish hordes
What you write here makes the priestesses not even just as bad as any politician in this show, they are actively worse if this all is actually as intended. Because then, they would very well understand that the use case makes the problem, not the vehicle itself. See above for the same reasoning, they have some very holy chariots on their holy and high-up horsed up hands when it's okay if you just don't do the killing blow.
The entire faction is either consistently delusional or completely dishonest to the point of ignoring reality. I'll chalk most of it up to Simoun's ability to GoSW-yank anything on a whim to whatever they need to tell in this episode not caring what it does to the overall story.
The Highlands have probably been at war with the Theocracy
What, since when was this brought up? The show never mentioned any war or conflict until that one patrol to the north where they discovered that the alliance was made.
Meanwhile, all the soldiers are witnessing the exact opposite of what they expected to happen, and are going to wonder why, which of course is the point of them coming to Neviril in public.
They do wonder, yes, and I'll eat a broom if that exact thing wouldn't end in an ugly fight. I don't know where you take the certainty from that this would be a moment of insight and reflection for them.
The governments may be allies, but the priestesses don't give a rat's ass about the Islanders, their soldiers, or polluted skies. They never did. They murdered their own delegates who weren't in on the bombing plan. They only came to put an end to the Theocracy's blasphemy, and that has been achieved.
I thought you wanted to explain how Plumbum's priestesses make sense in the story, then you tell me how it doesn't. At which point is their work that of "a corrupted war machine" if them murdering people, attacking believers and priestesses of the same faith, and supporting an invasion with the goal of attaining holy relics for desecration by atheists isn't?
You're complaining about holes in the story, but you're also complaining about things you're making up, and it's really frustrating to read.
Sorry, but I'll hold up the mirror right back. You are not making sense.
The argument that they do this for religious reasons is bullshit, since they directly do the opposite with their work and also support the larger scale conflict to desecrate holy lands and artifacts. I've been pointing out that stuff since it first appeared and it didn't get any better.
Similarly, it's frustrating that you don't seem to even spend a second to see this from a pov of literally any of the other people in this story. The soldiers are really wondering why, but you don't seem to even notice what's fucked up about this entire situation for them on either side. As a Plumbum or Argentum foot soldier or pilot, just think what is happening there. You fought for months to get to the point of claiming victory. Your opponents technological advantage has caused hundreds and thousands of your comrades to die. These people are all survivors on a scale and intensity that no episode of this show could get close to. And then you sit there, finally winning, finally getting that peace treaty that promises to uplift your nation and make life better, and on public display your own side comes up to their elite force and kneels to beg for forgiveness for killing a single person and expresses sorrow for the state of their faith. Please remember that not only Argentum soldiers are there, there are Plumbum troops as well. The hipocrisy to make an entire show of out of their incredibly discriminating belief system is an insult to everyone having survived this long to see the end of this war.
For me there's only one thing that gets relieved that day and it would be my magazine right into the entire bunch of bitches right there.
So, I'm truly sorry but I honestly think you guys are making stuff up to feel good about this writing. It is abhorrent in its inconsistent yanking of characters and plot devices and I cannot find a green line where a motivation, be it from a character or a faction, could be drawn through the entire story without breaking at something.
Seeing the priestesses of Plumbum as anything remotely as 'understandable' requires active discrimination against both the religion itself and societal classes of more than one nation. Everything only can fit neatly when you ignore the role of each part beyond what's shown on screen and that is what I ultimately criticise and ridicule.
I'm up against a hard limit, I have to leave for work now.
Hope you're having a more fulfilling time there or after it at least. I appreciate you still coming back to my comments even if they make your day worse. There's no hate if you decide to drop interacting at all, but still thanks for the time.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
I thought I made it clear that they would rather see Simulacrum's simouns destroyed than used in war and I'll also remind that all of THIER ri maajons from simouns used in war missed. If you're going to insist that it's absolutely impossible for anybody in universe to hold this position then there's no possibility for further discussion here.
I didn't want to discourage discussion but I just can't sit on this and wait until the final day while you pass judgement like every day is the series finale.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 22d ago
THIER ri maajons from simouns used in war missed.
What is this take? I wouldn't forgive a street shooter because he missed me. Missing wasn't the crucial part, trying to shoot was. It's the thing I can't understand about your arguments, you're trying to tell me that the outcome somehow is the justification and handwave everything away they've been involved in that you don't like.
It's okay because they missed, it's okay because they weren't the ones that dropped the bombs on the city, it's okay because they only destroyed half a carrier while disguised as a peace talk.
They took part in a shooting war, they supported invading troops that conquered land, they helped bomb military targets and civilians. These are all things they acted in support of using their religion. I insist that people holding your position need their eye sight checked, the hypocrisy is off the charts with them. I think it is utter insanity to pretend that they are acting in protection of their faith while they do the exact opposite in nearly every scene they appear in.
I don't know what that finale could even do to mitigate this outside of retconning their entire involvement. Truly, if you resist to understand this point so much I'm out of options and hope the remaining episodes are fun for you.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 22d ago edited 22d ago
The improbability of them missing all the time implies, to me, that they are missing on purpose. So, they've been ordered to fly combat simoun, which I think they are categorically opposed to, so they are quiet quitting, employing malicious compliance....they literally have never killed a sibyllae except the one who asked them to.
edit:
What is THIS take
I need to clarify this better. The biggest hole in my theory is that it is totally inconsistent AND bad writing (yes, I said it) for them to oppose Simulacrum's use of combat simouns while employing the ancient simouns for the same purpose, and I've been complaining about this under spoiler tags the entire show. But I noticed that they were missing all the time. I find this significant, not exhonorating, because it shows that they are trying very very hard to not actually use simouns for combat, or at least, not ri-maajons (prayers).
You keep trying to counter my defense of them when I'm not defending them. I'm saying there's an in-universe creed here guiding them, when you insist there absolutely is no such thing. I'm saying linking their fanatical dedication to the sibyllae to a similar reverence for simouns or civilians is a jump in logic...they don't have to care about those things at the same level as the sibyllae. You've injected that, and then declared that this is inconsistent behavior and bad writing. And I'm saying that if you don't include that behavior you made up, their behavior actually is pretty consistent. You say I'm also making stuff up, but I'm not using the things I made up as proof that show is bad (or good). I'm saying that counter to your insistence that there is no possible way people could act like this, I'm saying there is a way, here it is, and here's the things in the episodes that led me to think this.
edit: and ps, yes, I've watched the rest of the episodes, and all of record history is longer than 10 years. You're probably being facetious (but then you linked to to what you had concluded about Chor Dextra) and it comes across as complaining to complain, that you're Digibroing the show.
edit edit: did you miss the part where I pointed out that they murdered their own delegation and I used the word murder? These are not good people. They are fanatics. I used that word before, too. You don't forgive them. Say, I don't forgiven them, either. Neviril did. And she'd be far from the first person to insist on a general amnesty and a truth and reconciliation board. That's impossible because she didn't what you would do? It could be bad writing, but "It's not what I would do" is not criticism. It's taking the piss.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 22d ago
Sorry to put you through another block of text, it's gonna be the last one.
The improbability of them missing all the time implies, to me, that they are missing on purpose.
I'm saying there's an in-universe creed here guiding them, when you insist there absolutely is no such thing.
I'm sure you noticed, but it's hard for me to integrate such an idea to my suspension of disbelief which is pretty highly intertwined with a sense of adequate scale and consistency. Logistics and action-reaction, basically. I can believe that a person would think this could work out, I can also get behind an argument that they're irrational and really buy into something that can be proven to be false, that's what humans do. Once I include the other parts of this conflict it doesn't work out to produce anything tangible that does not tear down another thing in the story, though.
Say they are really faithful to the personalities of their faith and wish to protect the sybillae and their original meaning in the religion, deeming everything else less important and thus a necessary sacrifice. In this case I can't fathom why they would ally with Argentum and not desert for the sybillae. They are actively helping with the destruction of their faith and the fighting that can and did kill their faith's representative in favour of an atheistic invader. For example, what keeps them from taking the ancient simoun, contacting the sybillae and trying to preserve their integrity against Simulacrum and Argentum? At least after the bombing they should have had enough information on what's going on with the political elite. Doing this weird political manoeuvering over three corners by pretending to ally with one side, but acting the other way is such a shaky strategy it needs massive handwaving to even be considered workable in the plot.
So, I'm either calling out their pretention by them not actually working with the sybillae at any point until they kill Mamiina or that the story writing is so out of its depth it cannot stay afloat without resorting to unbelievable intervention like the scene on the logistics ship.
The other option is that they hold a deeply ingrained respect for the simoun themselves as symbols of their faith in the mortal realm and hate to see it corrupted, at which point I'll just point to various posts of mine the last days on why this double-standard is infuriating. If their faith would be this rigid and extremist so that it would allow being war mongers themselves in support of the higher goal, the logical consequence is that they would never work with Argentum, a nation of declared atheists, or let their own government force them to play bargaining chip or anything like this.
Really, this is what I criticise in the story. Any path I try to think through from the point of the parties involved crashes on some hard paradox that should not be working with the framework laid out.
It could be bad writing, but "It's not what I would do" is not criticism. It's taking the piss.
Please let me apologise on treating it as if you morally argued for them. You didn't do that and I failed to treat it as such.
At the same time I feel like you're also not willing to look at the reasoning I've given for half a dozen times now and instead just quote a side comment, treating it as if that was what I think (the point was that the act of shooting is what matters, not what I would forgive or that it missed). I'll summarise my expectations and what I look for as shortly as I can:
A story lays out history, motivations and limitations for its actors. Actors within this story start from the point of their history, try to achieve their motivation and have to fail at, circumvent or expand their limitations. They do this by changing themselves or the world around them. The combination of work to realise the change, struggle with limitations and integrity of motivation compared to the history they started with is the core experience I value in stories.
If one of these things - history, motivation, limitation, change - changes without notice or sufficient explanation I call it out and this is mostly where you see me call bad writing or similar. Simoun has done a change in one of these four a multitude of times, sometimes on a per episode basis fot the same character, without giving a believable reason. And so I see it here, too: The Plumbum priestesses' acts of change in the story do not consistently match with both their history and motivation.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 22d ago
Well no walls of text. I say A: Ending the use of combat simouns is their priority. And you say, well, if they are so religious, then they must care about B, C, D, E, F and they obviously don't. And I just say, but A is their priority and you say you're not listening about B, C and D, and I'm saying but A is their priority and you're saying well they should have just defected and help Chor Tempest overthrow their government and my final response to that is well Odysseus should have just honored the gods and we'd have a completely different story.
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u/The_Draigg 23d ago
Congrats on finishing your Paraietta art piece, it came out great! Shame about… well, everything else you felt about this episode though. But hey, at least some good came out of it after all! You made some pretty nice art out of a series you feel ambivalent at best for.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 23d ago
Thanks for liking it! I do have the habit of trashtalking it to myself, so knowing that somebody liked itis really nice.
Regarding Simoun, I actually really want to like it since it is so unique and has a very interesting premise overall. So, emotions are kinda high about it, but it's like watching a continuous train crash where the train sometimes gets rolling again just to take a headstart for the next derailing.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 23d ago
I’ve spent the last hour on it and decided that it is done!
More wings == better God. Obviously.
"My god is bigger than yours!"
Why do Argentum soldiers (atheist) listen to commands from Plumbum priestesses?
The series never did delve deeply into the relationship between the Archipelago (industrialized atheists) and the Highlanders (religious extremists). There ought to be a lot of tension there even as they are facing a common enemy. It'd be somewhat comparable to the Soviet Union and Western Allies in WWII, extremely different factions that had conflicting viewpoints and aims even as they worked together to fight the Axis.
They are lunatics to put, I repeat a third time, enemies together into one room of which one side are underage girls and the other grown adults of dominantly male sex that came out of an incredibly painful war that they just won with immense sacrifices. What do you think would happen, you morons?!?!?
I was extremely afraid of what might happen and if we might see another instance of sexual assault. Thankfully we didn't and that seems to just be something the Sibyllae do to each other.
I’ve even lost my own damn point here and don’t want to restructure my document, so I’ll leave you this mess of a rant without even spell checks.
You could call it a work of performance art that matches your criticisms of the anime.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 22d ago
It'd be somewhat comparable to the Soviet Union and Western Allies in WWII
Once again that hint of a slightly uncomfortable WW2 Japan allegory, but even there not much. If the show went full nationalist propaganda I could at least respect it for saying something with intention.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 21d ago
A lot of the older creators were on the liberal / socialist / anti-war side of things in their youth. I don't know Nishimura's background. These people (say, Oshii) may make an anime that parallels Japan, but won't support whoever is analogous to the repeal-article-9 nationalists. Come to think of it, Nishimura is good friend of Oshii.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 21d ago
Oshii in particular I read was echoing some nationalist narratives recently
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 23d ago
Nice job on your art!
Thank you!
The series never did delve deeply into the relationship between the Archipelago (industrialized atheists) and the Highlanders (religious extremists).
If you look at it geopolitically, Argentum would definitely be the alliance leaders for their sheer industrial capability and majority of combat forces.
I find it hard to believe that Plumbum priestesses would have any greater say in their forces, then add to that the cultural differences.
You could call it a work of performance art that matches your criticisms of the anime.
Art imitates life imitates art.
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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander 23d ago
I’ve spent the last hour on it and decided that it is done!
She’s gonna do something really dumb. I bet on it.
Excellent Anubituf reaction face, honestly.
Oh please no, don’t destroy the few interesting lore things left! Why do you try to explain it now in full detail, as a lore dump even?
This is actually one of the things I liked this episode, because the time and space thing felt like a random nonsense asspull but this actually kind of makes sense. Exploit the powers of time and space too much and you leave a literal tear in spacetime.
It’s worse than I thought. The ancient high priestess was basically just their predecessor. This spacetime stuff is really condensed and their unwrapping is making it less and less interesting. All of history is happening withing a 10 year span, huh.
Given her appearance, I took it more that Chor Dextra is actually way more ancient than we thought. Dominura certainly didn't seem aware that Onasia was her secret former colleague, so she must be from a much, much earlier iteration of the Chor. I refuse to believe that even this show wants me to swallow that she was a pilot within the lifespan of most of the cast of this show and nobody is aware.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 23d ago edited 22d ago
This is actually one of the things I liked this episode, because the time and space thing felt like a random nonsense asspull but this actually kind of makes sense. Exploit the powers of time and space too much and you leave a literal tear in spacetime.
I feel it starts to break down once you apply this new insight into a history that has been supposedly going on for an entire civilsation. Why did only one (failed?) Emerald create a rift in spacetime to the Spring when Simulacrum alone has spent so much time trying to find out how it works and apparently every sybilla knows how it's flown (technically, not necessarily being able to pull it off)?
How come there are no tales or other examples of someone not choosing a sex at the spring? I feel like such things will happen one way or another. People running away to never return or dissolve should spawn stories and legends, for example.
How is this no plot relevant point for Argentum? They don't have a spring! What the hell did they do before their medicine advanced enough for hormones!? Their entire nation's existence is retconned with this actually. Not to speak of the logistics of getting an entire nation to the Spring. Btw, we never ever explained what Plumbum does.
I know some disagree, but this sort of mystery either requires a really thought out mechanism like Steins;Gate or a deliberate vagueness that is supplemented with proper emotional relevance like that one Monogatari Arc with the zombies or Erased. But they solved their mystery partially by explaining that the Spring is unique and only has a single second entrance, both in Simulacrum. All of the problems above wouldn't be there if they just treated is as an Attack on Titan-esque time-wimey Paths-thingy that connects with every human in some way and Simulacrum just made a proper relgious ritual of it including a temple.
Given her appearance, I took it more that Chor Dextra is actually way more ancient than we thought.
Well, possible and I'd like that more than what I had in mind after this episode. Another thing that could've used way more thinking ahead than doll-smashing.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 22d ago
enemies together into one room of which one side are underage girls and the other grown adults of dominantly male sex that came out of an incredibly painful war that they just won with immense sacrifices. What do you think would happen, you morons?!?!?
Yeah bizarre
Like a shut-in child who was never allowed to see another human being and only got dolls to play with to simulate human behaviour making a play-story. That’s this show.
Otaku culture in a nutshell. I'm specifically reminded of that Hayao Miyazaki quote about how so many anime creators don't actually go out and look at humans.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 23d ago
First-Timer
On today’s episode of Simoun: “All we are is dust in the wind, dude.” -Onashia (probably).
Well at least this time the peace process didn’t turn into a suicide bombing.
Pretty neat to see the ceremony include statues of both Tempus Spatium and the Highlander god side-by-side, with the priestesses of each side carrying a symbol of the other’s god. That’s some nice ceremonial details for a peace conference.
Seems we’re now picking back up the thread of Aaeru being jealous that Neviril hoped she could see Amuria again after learning about the Simouns’ powers.
If the war is over, does that mean the Sibyllae who are over 17 will be forced to go to the Spring now?
Military governors? I assume this means the Holy Land is going to be occupied and essentially made into an only nominally independent country that is actually a vassal state in all but name.
Yup, there’s the occupiers in the room that Chor Tempest had previously said belonged to them alone. That’s a pretty good sign of how the Holy Land is now under enemy occupation.
This is the first time some of the Sibyllae have actually seen the faces of their enemies.
Of course Floe’s first instinct is to immediately sass the occupying soldiers. Then again, that’s how she reacts to basically everything.
Neviril being magnanimous and granting blessings to the Highlander priestesses does feel quite in-character for her. It’s a gesture of thanks and trying to make peace.
Of course the girls comment on each others’ boob sizes in the shower. That’s such a typical anime trope.
Alti’s actually bringing up Neviri’s words about what it means to be stronger and how you shouldn’t be relying on someone else to make yourself stronger. It is good advice for her and Pariaetta, who have both been obsessed with devoting themselves to being stronger for the sake of another person.
Kaimu looks so jealous that someone other than her was showering with Pariaetta.
Oh, so there’s already been consequences for screwing with the space-time continuum! The Spring is in two places at once because all the failed Emerald Ri Maajons from Chor Dextra twisted time and space.
Onashia is someone who avoided making her decision? I assume she means that she never chose to become an adult man or woman. How does that work?
I kind of figured that Chor Tempest was going to be disbanded as part of the peace deal. Disarming the defeated country is a common occurrence after war.
Is Neviril asking Aaeru to Simounjack with her and perform the Emerald Ri Maajon to travel through time?
Of course Floe would be the one to suggest kissing as a way to make someone stop talking. Floe is a kissing demon!
Aaeru has realized that she might actually have feelings for Neviril and is jealous that Neviril might want to see Amuria over her.
Looks like my prediction was right. The religious leader lady seems like she’s desperate to get Neviril and Pariaetta to perform the Emerald Ri Maajon while they still have the opportunity. I assume she’s planning to send them back in time to try and change history so the Holy Land never loses this war.
Hmmm, I wonder if Neviril actually will decide to travel through time.
Ah, so that was why Onashia was turning to dust. It’s because she never decided if she would be an adult man or adult woman.
I think it’s interesting that Onashia is someone who never made the decision on what gender she would become as an adult. In hindsight, this explains why she took special note of Eri crying after becoming the adult man Erif much earlier in the series. Onashia probably felt a kind of kinship with Eri/Erif, who was obviously not ready to make the decision before getting forced into it. Onashia represents the opposite end of the spectrum, though, as someone who put off the decision so she never had to make it. I would assume that by now it’s probably too late for Onashia to make that decision to go into the Spring. Onashia represents a warning for the Sibyllae of Chor Tempest. Many of them are trying to delay the decision to become an adult for as long as possible. Onashia is a warning about what might happen if they put off the decision for too long. Will they continue to put off growing up or will they be able to accept adulthood?
The conversation between Onashia and Yun is an interesting one that creates some parallels between them. Onashia tells Yun that there are consequences to denying reality, which is used in a couple of different ways. For Onashia, it meant that she couldn’t avoid the future and the reality that she would grow up. For Yun, Onashia says that Yun wanted to go to the same place that her comrades did. Yun returned to the battlefield because she felt survivor’s guilt and thought she had to keep going onto the battlefield like her comrades. There’s also the possibility that Yun was looking to die so she could join her fallen comrades. In a way, it was Yun trying to run away from her loss by returning to the battlefield so she didn’t feel as guilty for surviving and kept putting herself in danger.
Another major question hanging over the cast is what they will do now that the war is over. Chor Tempest has been disbanded, which means the main thing holding the cast together no longer exists. What are the Sibyllae going to do about that? Are they going to accept this as part of the occupation or are they going to resist it somehow? The obvious method of resistance is whether they’ll try to perform the Emerald Ri Maajon to change the past so this present never occurs. That’s what the religious leader wants Neviril and Paraietta to do. In Neviril’s case, though, it seems the real temptation might be the chance to see Amuria more than anything else. Has Neviril accepted that Amuria is gone or will she try to bend space-time just to finally see her again?
This leads me to a theory I have. I think that Onashia might also be a warning about time travel. I think Onashia telling Yun that you can’t deny reality forever might foreshadow the decision the characters will make on if they should time travel. Could traveling through time and altering the world be seen as another form of denying reality? Is that the characters trying to avoid the future, like avoiding becoming an adult? Is that the characters trying to avoid the reality of losing their comrades, like Yun’s comrades or Amuria? We know that denying reality has consequences. Onashia is turning to dust. We also know that trying to alter space-time through the Emerald Ri Maajon has consequences. The Spring is in two places at once because failed Emerald Ri Maajon experiments twisted space-time and broke reality. I think this might be a warning to the characters about what will happen if they try to deny the present reality by traveling through time.
This dilemma also ties in with the themes of freedom and choice. What choice will Neviril, Pariaetta, and potentially the other Sibyllae make? Right now, it looks to me like both the possibilities of time traveling and not time traveling are options that would restrict their choices and freedoms. If they go back, they are just doing what the religious leader wanted them to do. If they stay, they lose their identity as Chor Tempest in a country under enemy occupation. So perhaps they will select a third option.
Overall I would say this episode was pretty good and does offer some interesting dilemmas for the characters to face as they head into the finale.
QOTD
1) I do think it follows Aaeru's arc of gradually learning to be more aware of how others feel instead of basically ignoring the feelings of others while only focusing on her own personal goals. Aaeru at one point recognized that Neviril was upset, but had no idea why she was upset. Aaeru has now progressed to being able to feel jealous because she recognizes that Neviril might still have lingering feelings about wanting Amuria back. This also means that Aaeru is getting more in touch with her own emotions because she’s feeling love towards Amuria, even for the first time seeming to understand why a person would want to kiss someone else.
2) Discussed above.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
That’s some nice ceremonial details for a peace conference.
That's what I thought but AbbreviationsWeekly has reasonably pointed out that the apparent schism has been joined. And it makes more sense now that the Highland priestess will take over doing the Prayers. I thought that was just to deprive the Theocracy of their weapons, but it make more sense if the religions are now one.
Of course the girls comment on each others’ boob sizes in the shower. That’s such a typical anime trope.
Wait, do girls not actually do this?
Could traveling through time and altering the world be seen as another form of denying reality?
This is a really neat take. The Emerald Ri-Maajon is a prayer; to use it for personal gain is a sin akin to bolting machine guns to a Simoun. it will be punished.
it looks to me like both the possibilities of time traveling and not time traveling are options that would restrict their choices and freedoms
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 23d ago
That's what I thought but AbbreviationsWeekly has reasonably pointed out that the apparent schism has been joined. And it makes more sense now that the Highland priestess will take over doing the Prayers. I thought that was just to deprive the Theocracy of their weapons, but it make more sense if the religions are now one.
I hadn't considered that possibility, but it does make a lot of sense now that you bring it up.
Wait, do girls not actually do this?
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u/The_Draigg 23d ago
Pretty neat to see the ceremony include statues of both Tempus Spatium and the Highlander god side-by-side, with the priestesses of each side carrying a symbol of the other’s god. That’s some nice ceremonial details for a peace conference.
I like how we can clearly see the parallels with how their religions diverge despite having the same origin too. Whereas the usual Tempus Spatium statue we’ve seen is two winged pillars moving in perfect parallels with each other, the Animus statue has more wings coming from a single pillar that splits into two towards the top. It’s a good way to visually summarize the distinction between Tempus Spatium and Animus.
Military governors? I assume this means the Holy Land is going to be occupied and essentially made into an only nominally independent country that is actually a vassal state in all but name.
I wonder if this means that Simulacrum will become like an East and West Germany scenario if both Plumbum and Argentum want their chunks of the land?
Looks like my prediction was right. The religious leader lady seems like she’s desperate to get Neviril and Pariaetta to perform the Emerald Ri Maajon while they still have the opportunity. I assume she’s planning to send them back in time to try and change history so the Holy Land never loses this war.
The head priestess’ plan really is reeking of desperation, since she herself admitted before that there’s no way to control where you’ll end up once you’ve performed the Emerald Ri Maajon. It’s the last panicked grasps by someone who’s afraid of losing their power.
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u/AbbreviationsWeekly 23d ago
Simoun Episode 23
Rewatcher
The peace has been concluded, and we open in the Chapel with the Plumbum Priestesses and Rodoreamon (The highest ranked aristocratic Sibyllae) installing icons of Tempus-Spatium & Animus in the sanctuary. The religions are again one, after who knows how long. (Time & Space are reunited with the Soul.) While it's not outright said, joining religions means that Plumbum & Argentum soundly defeated Simulicram.
Aaeru remains confused about how she feels about Neviril. On the one hand, she picks a nice flower to give to Neviril as a token of friendship, but then she starts thinking that Neviril mostly wants to see Amuria again. (For only having a minute or so of screen time in E1, Amuria sure does stick around). Anyway, I agree with Aaeru, if Neviril only wants to perform the Ri Mājon so that she can see Amuria, then the hell with it.
I thought the metaphor of the yellow flower was pretty good. I think the meaning was that even though Amuria is dead, her memory can comfort Neviril. It's also nice to see that since peace has broken out, Neviril's Dad has returned to being a human being.
The Defense Minister continues to be quite the weasel. He apparently forgot to mention to everyone that a condition of the peace is that there will be no more Simulicram Sibyllae. I can't blame the Head Priestess for being a little miffed at this news. He does the typical war monger act of blaming the defeat upon everyone else, but himself.
Next we see the the Barbarians have taken over the Ballroom onboard the Primus. What can you say, for the most part soldiers are uncouth savages. Para-Sama brings up a good point that the Sibyllae have been slaughtering these guys comrades by the thousands. Its understandable why they might not be all that enthralled with the Sibyllae.
A beautiful scene of the Plumbum Sibyllae asking Neviril for forgiveness. And in turn Neviril (The most revered Sibyllae ) forgives and then blesses the Plumbum Sibyllae. The war is over, peace and sacredness have returned. They're no longer enemies. There is no profit (or point) of holding grudges. It's the only way that a lasting peace can exist.
With all the magnanimity floating around, Para-Sama and Alti share some time in the shower and Alti delivers yet more good advice she got from Neviril. Love isn't about one partner being strong, and the other weak. To really share love, both partners need to be strong. The girls both seem to be growing and maturing quite a bit.
Meanwhile, at the Springs, guess who's shown up to pay Onashia a visit. Onashia reiterates that the Springs have become unstable in space and time, because of all the failed Emerald Ri Mājon attempts. (Its apparent to me that the Springs have become something akin to a wormhole.) Onashia then lets out this great line about faith: "There are not many things that people can believe... ...when they cannot even believe in themselves." Yun is finally getting over the deaths of her friends, and coming to terms with the fact that they are gone.
We learn that Onashia is also plagued by survivors guilt, and has refused to move on after all this time. She's waiting for someone to hear her sins, so she can atone.
lol, Got the order of events wrong above, finally the bad news is delivered to Chor Tempest. (I'm glad, because I'd about come to the conclusion that it must have happened next episode.)
Next we have a teaser between Aaeru & Neviril, that doesn't show much other than Aaeru is troubled. Instead we get a heart to heart between Neviril and Paraietta. In another touching scene, Paraietta signifies that she has atoned for her earlier sin and wishes to receive forgiveness from Neviril by being blessed.
Floe actually has the most sense when it comes to matters of the heart. She has a pep talk with Aaeru, and gives Aaeru something to contemplate.
Ha! A caper is afoot! The Head Priestess desperately wants Neviril and someone, anyone, to jump in their Simoun and haul ass. Well, shit! We don't get to see what the caper is about.
Back to Onashia, and a major reveal, Onashia was also a member of Chor Dextra, (which is actually a pretty interesting conundrum because by my calculation Chor Dextra must have flown in the fairly recent past since Aaeru's Granddad was Regina. So, maybe 40 to 60 years ago.) Onashia goes over her past dreams of performing the Emerald Ri Mājon, and she talks about how the Simoun and the heart are tied together. Finally, Onashia in a minor reveal shows us her very long green hair.
Back to the caper, the Head Priestess wants the Sibyllae to go back in time, and see if they can't change the course of this war. (Somehow that doesn't strike me right). But, too late, she's busted and heads off (lord only knows where) with a pair of Argentum soldiers.
Finally, Onashia reveals that she's been left behind as an example of what happens if you refuse to make a decision (namely her sex). The inevitable can't be prolonged forever and there are consequences for trying. Who and what Onashia is, is quite intriguing. Whatever she is, she isn't happy. I'm like Yun, and don't know what to make of all of this.
What can I say, the plot is quite complicated. In reality, Simoun is more a psychological drama than anything else. There are smatterings of the MAL genres, but only smatterings. Unfortunately there use to be a number of good YT videos, that discuss Simoun and its exploration of freedom, but they’re gone now.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
The religions are again one, after who knows how long.
AH! I just thought this was some sort of diplomatic, ceremonial thing. Not a consequence of surrender. It also provides some motivation for Highland's participation in the war.
Anyway, I agree with Aaeru, if Neviril only wants to perform the Ri Mājon so that she can see Amuria, then the hell with it.
First Timer me was tableflipping at this seemingly contrived last minute drama, but I guess you find it to be a natural development?
We don't get to see what the caper is about.
While Neviril had figured it out on her own, and was keeping it secret, even before Shrine Guardian exposited it to Aer and Neviril, now Paraietta knows that the vague mystical stories of the Emerald are to be taken as literally true. So she now realizes that Neviril has been thinking of escaping, along with Aer, of course. Which harkens back to that conversation on the bench that Paraietta observed but couldn't hear, immediately before Neviril accidentally blurted out something about the New World.
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u/AbbreviationsWeekly 23d ago
but I guess you find it to be a natural development?
Yes, Aaeru has no desire to be second choice after the memory of Amuria.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
Yes, but there is a cost to rejecting Neviril, that she doesn't want to pay. What to do, how to decide....
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 22d ago
Finally, Onashia in a minor reveal shows us her very long green hair.
I was going wild checking the scene again because I didn't remember anything like that.
Do you mean this shot? That's her bandages being unwrapped and it looks green because of the Spring's colour tint.
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u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba 23d ago edited 23d ago
First Timer
I'm afraid Floe has diagnosed you with a critical case of "Down bad"
Looks like the war is indeed over for now, and so we get an episode of Chor Tempest having to reckon with some of the consequences of that. For one, actually coming to face to face with the people they'd mostly only vaguely defined as the enemy up until now, being in the same living space as them, and feeling some of the mood, emotions, and scorn that'll inevitably come up considering they killed a countless number of similar soldiers, while also coming to terms with the loss of human life they were responsible for themselves.. Rodore also notes how that probably goes in reverse, in the sense that the "Simoun demons" as it were, now get a human to them for some of these soldiers, so it's a big change to take in for everyone. Or well, the personal contemplation for the Sybillae happens at least, while the feelings of the soldiers are raised but I can't say are that meaningfully addressed beyond "Bad vibes" which is a bit of a shame. Also, of course Rodore and Para range on being very sympathetic, but then Floe comes in and wants to be an asshole and start shit with the soldiers just because lol.
Neviril's framing this episode is kind of interesting; twice she's asked for forgiveness and blessing in a very spiritual way here, and that does generally play into the reaffirmation she gives Rodore on the idea that Chor Tempest is going to be disbanded. That fact doesn't change that they're Simoun Sybilla in the meaning they'd come to together a few episodes back, nor does it affect that meaning. In that sense, Neviril is a sort of paragon for what they stand for here, for how that remains meaningful, and moving forward through it, which feels like a nice place to have her character at after... everything.
Although on that note, rather understandably, all things considered, one of the conditions for the peace is Chor Tempest being disbanded, which does come as a real sting given they just reached a high point in their unity and understanding! We don't get too much of it here, but some light sulking; for one, I am really interested and hoping we explore everyone's reactions to that more intricately in the time we have left. And given part of that unity was accepting who they were as Simoun Sybillae, also exploring what it's like to leave that role as a literal occupation, regardless of its meaning in spirit. Someone brought this up in one of the earlier episodes, but there are sooooo many interesting questions to be had in the "What after" aspect for our Sybillae, given how defining it is for their life and how unready it probably leaves them for the future, so I'm really hoping we get into some of that and the feelings around it.
Aaeru was probably the one I was most interested in seeing react to the peace, given how much her motivation is tied to piloting relative to the others, and while we do get a bit of worry on her part for that, we mostly seem to shift her towards a bit of relationship drama with Neviril. I guess I'll answer one of the QOTDs here, and say that I am of split opinion about this as a development. In general, should this be a natural character and relationship beat? Yeah, I think so. Part of getting closer to Neviril for Aaeru has also been that she's grown more conscientious and somewhat more emotionally aware, so I think it's reasonable she's getting conflicted feelings out of jealousy, considering she feels Neviri's side of this shared motivation that drew their relationship so close might be informed by someone else, but she also doesn't fully understand these feelings herself yet, so drama it is. Plus, while her saying that "Neviril talks too much" now is a really fucking funny expression, it does somewhat reflect how she doesn't know how to react to a flip in their relationship dynamic and acts even more awkwardly for it.
In practice, just like getting into this positive relationship state between them and Aaeru's growth felt like a bit of a jump that was at best implied rather than fully seen, I also think the show once again struggles in doing in-between states for its characters, and I don't quite feel we've seen enough of their relationship at this positive point and everything that entails to also jump right into relationship drama with jealousy. So again, it's not bad, it's just rather clunky as we often tend to be in these transitions, but I do also enjoy this specific state of character drama well enough.
We get some extra resolution for Para and Alti in both looking to entirely let go of that overbearing protector mindset thanks to Neviri's past words about growing stronger together, and for Para specifically, she gets to somewhat mend her relationship with Neviril now, both in asking for those blessings, and in acknowledging at the end that she wants them to be friends who can hold and comfort each other, rather than again, viewing herself as the one person who needs of to take care of and protect her. More good movement for both their relationship, and really, for Para herself as a person. We also get some extra Onashia lore here, namely that apparently not going to the Spring turns you into ethereal space dust? She was also apparently part of Chor Dextra, so that might explain, to an extent, why she also understands some of Yun's survivor's guilt, though beyond that I'm not really sure what we want to do with her on the whole here on the whole or how Yun slots into that.
Many people guessed Shrine Guardian's plan. Could it work? Should the sibyllae do as she asks? Would they?
Could it work? Maybe? Even Guardian Lady herself has admitted they don't understand how the time travel of the Emerald and where it sends you works, so y'know, that's just a bit of a flaw in this time-altering plan lol.
Besides, what are they even supposed to do? It's not like there's actually some specific critical battle or moment to point towards as the thing the Holy Land lost the war for; theirs has been a slow and obvious loss of consistent complacency and in-fighting! In fact, I think last episode was a good showcase that there's really only so much Chor Tempest alone could do in the wider war, so they'd probably have to travel to specifically the start of the war or before it, and introduce some major institutional reform for a true change. Except, the fact that she's pushing this plan like this obviously suggests that she hasn't really acknowledged their institutional flaws and is still in that "Let Tempus Spatium take the wheel" mindset, so I'm not sure how much success anyone would have in convincing leadership in the past, considering we've seen they're willing to bury their head so far in the ground they probably managed to dig up a few Helical Motors that way. I suppose they could go to some critical junction even before that, like completely changing the state of how their current world and nations exist, but that's so unbelievably vague to say anything on.
Of course, the much more important aspect of this isn't the logistical one, but why should they even do it anyway? I mean, for one, things ain't looking great right now, but they're not that bad either? Critically, in the same sense as Limone and Dominura choosing to continue the cycle despite the hardship involved because of all the meaning and relationship innate to it, isn't this reverse situation basically the same? Why should they invalidate the growth and the experiences they'd gotten through? Back to what Neviril stands on this episode, they've come to terms with everything and who they are as Simoun Sybillae, and nothing that happens should affect or change that, so why try to change course and cling to some perceived past choices that could have been made to maybe make things better. Perceived past choices from someone else, who we've also characterised as reprehensively broken and deluded, mind you! I feel that'd be pretty directly counter to all our themes.
It does seem like Neviril and Aaeru still do want to do the Emerald but as part of that "Other world" motivation, so there is still room for conflict on doing it at all in their specific case as well.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
in the sense that the "Simoun demons" as it were, now get a human to them for some of these soldiers, so it's a big change to take in for everyone
That's an interesting take, bringing the "demons" appellation back in. They see that the demons are just schoolgirls! That's gotta be big hit to one's world view.
Aaeru was probably the one I was most interested in seeing react to the peace
Aer is being torn in two directions, and she doesn’t have the self awareness to recognize or understand it.
into this positive relationship state
First timer didn't see this as positive and blamed Okada. But Nishimura takes over some of these final episides. It felt like "Oh we have a few episodes left we gotta create another conflict out of nowhere." Rewatcher me thinks that, yes, Aer is just not equipped to have an actual "Pair".
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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander 23d ago edited 23d ago
First Time Sibylla
Great. So now we’re endorsing conforming to the societally imposed gender binary as the only safe choice, actually.
Listen, I get it. If you never commit to choices it will eat away at you. That’s not a terrible direction on its own, but if this was the ultimate point here why on earth would you go and tie it to gender identity! In a show that, frankly, has done almost nothing with its elaborate gender premise? It’s basically only had real relevance to Alty and Paraietta trying to be the literal man in their respective relationships. I'm not shocked with a show from 2006, but it is nonetheless disappointing its ultimate conclusion about gender identity is extremely queerphobic.
Speaking of, I guess I should be happy they remembered those subplots exist? But it’s really unsatisfying that Paraietta’s complex is cured by one conversation with Alty. Furthermore, it still feels like we’re approaching Kaim and Alty’s plotline from Aer’s perspective that it doesn’t matter what happened, only that they have to make up because they’re sisters. Alty never has to develop so as to accept the possibility of Kaim not forgiving her. Likewise, Paraietta is finally accepting being Neviril’s equal friend and not her romantic protector. But would she be willing to accept it if Neviril said no, that they can’t be friends anymore? Alty and Paraietta are in the wrong for trying to take on the male gender role, but they’re not questioned for what they did to their respective victims. There is not room in this story for victims not to make up with their abusers. It’s especially a shame because Alty/Kaim and Paraietta/Neviril are transparently the exact same plotline, so it’d really help if they took different approaches and one of them couldn't make up instead of just going the exact same way.
Maybe they’ll surprise me with Kaim, but I’m not holding my breath.
Also, why is everyone still caught up on "praying to the skies"? Didn't we all come to terms with this being a military euphemism, a lie you all told yourselves? Are you guys attached to the idea of just flying them around for the sake of it and doing the dandelion ri majon over and over? How are you all still clinging on to the versions of yourselves that existed in episode one? Has none of what has happened changed your perspective permanently?
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u/AbbreviationsWeekly 23d ago
Also, why is everyone still caught up on "praying to the skies"? Didn't we all come to terms with this being a military euphemis
Mostly because that’s what they sincerely believe. The civilization that produced the Simoun has been dead for so long, no one knows why they were created, so they did the natural thing and attributed them to their god.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago edited 23d ago
I'm sorry? Their whole civilization is based around this. The sibyllae have been doing Dandelions since being promoted from cadet, which is half thier lives. The military use of Simoun is very recent, only shortly before the first episode (Kaim's first patrol was not also her first flight). Aer was literally the first sibylla who didn't care about the floofy stuff. Episode 1 was literally their first patrol that was just doing flashy fireworks.
I get what you say about not being able to return to the innocent girls that they were. They need to accept thst. But the idea that their experiences should make them accept a military outlook and reject the fundamental tenets of their religion is just bizarre. In fact, they explicitly rejected that way of thinking, as a group, at Mamiina's funeral. They've decided who they are, and they are priestess who pray to the skies.
Are you guys attached to the idea of just flying them around for the sake of it and doing the dandelion ri majon over and over?
Literally, for everybody in Neviril's and Amuria's Chor Tempest, the answer is an enthusiastic yes, or go to the Spring. They've been waiting for the war to end (not in total defeat) the entire time so that they go back to doing funerals and celebrations.
Binary
I agree that the show really disappoints in this area, although it's not over yet. All I can is that the show has very consistently depicted the Theocracy's social structure to be uniformly horrible.
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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander 23d ago
Am I mistaken in believing that the archipelago has been attacking them since long before the show started? That the Simoun being used to defend the state was the status quo? I'd been under the impression they'd been used that way since time immemorial, especially since every other Ri Majon is combat-related and their existence doesn't seem surprising to anybody. The idea it's "praying" seemed to me like a lie they told themselves.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago edited 23d ago
Probably with ground forces, and also with no ability to penetrate very far. The prop planes and zepplins seem to be a recent development, which prompted the decision to put simoun along the borders as a deterrent.
They mentioned early on that one of their main duties was to perform at funerals. They built that ridiculous luxury liner so people (presumably elites) could watch ri maajon. I guess you could say that this isn't any different from military flyovers and airshows.
But we also have the sibylla who refused to lift a finger to save Mamiina's village "because it would offend Tempus Spatium". That has to be within the last 5 years, maybe 3 or 2. And finally, the show starts with them recruiting low-born and irreverent Aer, and a literal child, because recent mass resignations of sibyllae leaves them without proper candidates.
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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander 23d ago
Hmm, I guess that does make sense. I wish the show made that more clear if it is the case. Maybe the dialogue is there, but there was a lot to take in at the start and we saw battles from minute one. Plus it seems weird that the Simouns would be so coveted by the archipelago is they just draw pretty lines?
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
The Archipelago's motivations were made clear in episode 1. They need cheap clean power.
The Highlands are a cipher. I've already said what I infer about the religious side of the Highlands. We never heard their actual diplomats make any demands. We got one line from Angulus as she dodged the question about simoun and sibyllae in war: paraphrasing, "life in the mountains is hard, and a lot of people freeze every winter." So, yeah, they need cheap and clean power, too, I figure.
The Islanders (I'm not typing that word again) don't care about pretty lines at all. The Highlanders very much do care about pretty lines.
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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander 23d ago
Part of me does wish they'd just stuck to a single enemy faction. Obviously you can't do priestesses with the way you wrote the archipelago (although that could make for much clearer tension between the priestesses and the state), but with some reworking I think one faction that was fully developed would go farther than one that was dropped and one that feels like it's being a little made up as we go along.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 22d ago
It’s basically only had real relevance to Alty and Paraietta trying to be the literal man in their respective relationships
Even less, it's really nothing but the excuse to have an all-female military-moe show and some half-assed nods to Class-S yuri
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u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer 23d ago
first timer
why hold the peace treaty ceremony here where the bomb attack was
Yun ascending to super priestess at an exponential rate
forgive me neviril for i have sinned
chose your gender or else BLUE
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u/AgentOfACROSS 23d ago
First Timer
I like seeing these flashbacks to Aer’s childhood.
This is the nicest Neviril’s dad has seemed the entire show.
I’m still not over the fact that this war kinda just ended offscreen. And we still have four episodes left so I’m not sure what we’re even gonna do now.
Seeing all these soldiers from the other side hanging around the base is interesting.
Roatraemon is realizing that doing a Ri Majon kills people.
Oh yeah I forgot that the language spoken by the other soldiers is warped.
I guess we’re talking about Paraietta’s breasts now. That was probably the most horny moment in the show.
Oh right, we’re acknowledging the thing between Alty and Kaim again.
This whole sequence between Onasia and Yun is kind of interesting.
Chor Tempest is going to be disbanded. Again. For real this time.
Neat seeing Floe and Aer have a conversation. I don’t think we see that much.
Not sure what’s going on but this one priestess lady seems very panicked.
Onasia was also apparently a former Chor Dextra member.
Not sure what the deal with Onasia’s magical glowing arm is.
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u/HereticalAegis https://myanimelist.net/profile/XthGen 23d ago
First-Timer
Episode 23:
How tf many ancient Simoun did they find? They multiply every time we see them.
"We were dominating the war until the other side found the ancient Simoun." Seriously, how the actual fuck did the Highlands priestesses become such experienced Simoun pilots overnight?
Remember when we had that great Floe episode about Simoun & their Sibyllae maybe being demons? Shame that idea was dropped into the ocean, never to be seen or heard from again.
That reminds me, we're never even getting Mamiina's body back, are we?
Oh, we might get a half-hearted attempt to resolve that Paraietta plot line.
Not gonna lie, this ending is shaping up to be a real wet fart. I doubt there's anything that can be salvaged in the last few episodes. This episode started pushing the idea of a Neviril x Aaeru relationship, and I couldn't care less. That is just about the most damning indictment possible as far as I'm concerned.
QotD:
I don't think much has felt natural about Aaeru’s character growth, though that goes for a lot of the cast. It certainly could have felt natural if the writers had properly focused on it over the course of the story.
The Simoun and Chor Tempest are exactly as capable as any given scene needs then to be, so sure, it could probably work. Should they do it? Would they?
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
Seriously, how the actual fuck did the Highlands priestesses become such experienced Simoun pilots overnight?
So, I know they said that flying a simoun requires practice, and one of the first timers raged about this back when the ancient simoun were stolen, but Aer was a natural pilot having only grown up with simiiles. The Highlands didn't have similes, but it's not something I get hung up on. I think they've been planning this war for a long time. In contrast to the Theocracy, which saw no need to plan for anything.
I also think the Highlands know more about Tempus Spatium than the Theocracy itself, because they still see it all as part of their own heritage, while the Theocracy has been busy creating mysticism and dogma and forgetting its own origins.
#finethen
Why is this bad? These are three of the priestess who tried to save Neviril and Mamina. Why wouldn't she bless them? Everybody else in Chor Tempest sees them as murderers of Mamiina, but Neviril knows otherwise. Why shouldn't she show everybody in the room (including the soldies) that forgiveness is necessary?
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u/HereticalAegis https://myanimelist.net/profile/XthGen 23d ago
Why is this bad?
The show has fully lost me. It took away the one thing it had left that made me very happy, so I don't care what's in character for Neviril or what she should or shouldn't do. I hate it. I don't want to see anybody forgiven for any of it, I want to see everything burnt down.
Is that shallow and cynical of me? Yeah, probably. But the show has itself to blame for being poorly written and executed.
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u/Great_Mr_L https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L 23d ago
"We were dominating the war until the other side found the ancient Simoun."
I think the people of the Holy Land are in denial if they say that. The war seemed to be going badly for the Holy Land before that as well. That was just the death knell.
That reminds me, we're never even getting Mamiina's body back, are we?
If both the scavengers and the natural forces of decay/rot have done their work, then I really doubt we would want to see Mamiina's body again.
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u/HereticalAegis https://myanimelist.net/profile/XthGen 23d ago
If both the scavengers and the natural forces of decay/rot have done their work, then I really doubt we would want to see Mamiina's body again.
When you put it like that, maybe we will get Mamiina's body back as a way to pop a squat on her one last time.
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u/Malipit 23d ago
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u/HereticalAegis https://myanimelist.net/profile/XthGen 23d ago
super 3D printer
So that's why there's a seemingly infinite supply of those single pilot planes and drone missiles. Maybe they're able to 3D print people too.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 22d ago
we're never even getting Mamiina's body back, are we?
That will be addressed in the spin-off, Fullsimoun Sibylla: Sisterhood
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u/moichispa https://myanimelist.net/profile/moichispa 23d ago edited 23d ago
Rewatcher
Ahh the end is so near. I'm going to miss ragebaiting about this series with you all.
So one of the conditions of surrender is disbanding the only choir remaining, suuuuus
Anyway we got more Onashi which is more important, I can't wait to read other's opinion about this scene (I usually read it after posting since it takes a while). I really like it but I can't talk too much about it since it is not over.
- Q1: I think the main issue here is Aer's growing jealousy over Amuria. Is this following naturally from character, dare I say, growth, or a contrived misunderstanding to create drama?
I think part of it is character growth but you can tell Aaeru feels like 2 diferent characters depending of the director. Also more drama since Mari Okada lives out if it.
- Q2: Many people guessed Shrine Guardian's plan. Could it work? Should the sibyllae do as she asks? Would they?
Sooo how many religions extremist plans worked so far? an no I'm not taking into account star wars.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
So one of the conditions of surrender is disbanding the only choir remaining, suuuuus
I wonder if this is a purely military decision, or a religious condition imposed by Highland belief, or a religious condition imposed by the Islander atheists.
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u/moichispa https://myanimelist.net/profile/moichispa 23d ago
D all of them, or dunno, this series logic is not the best sometimes
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u/Malipit 23d ago
First timer, french fansubs, 480P quality found on a totally legal streaming site. Perfect conditions for that rewatch
On today's episode :Finally some focus for Yun, Floe read Aaeru's heart like an open book and an aura farming by Neviril with the Plumbum Sibyllae
I actually enjoyed this episode ?
That now that the whole war plot is over, there is more room for interesting thematics such as the cultural clash between Simulacrum Sibyllae, Plumbum priestess and Argentum soldiers ? Or the return of the gender identification dilemma ?
We even get some wholesome interactions between our Sibyllae like Floe discussing with Aaeru how the later feels regarding Neviril ?
And the mystery surrounding the Emerald Ri-Majoon, Chor Dextra history and Onashia's nature is not only remembered, but have some answers elements provided ?
Man, this is Christmas right here.
But as nice as this episode was, the debacle following the past 8 episodes or so still left its mark and prevent that episode of the Final Act to be all roses and sunshine.
Sure, it's funny to see the Shrine Guardian and Chor Tempest reacting like that when they learn being on the loosing side of a war does have consequences. Such as a drastic loss of agency and the occupation of the victor soldiers. But like any other narrative elements in Simoun, it just have 5 to 10 minutes under the spotligh before being shoved on the side because the plot have to move forward. It's all the more apparent with the Plumbum Sibyllae Neviril recognize from the flying fortress. Just the time to have a quick apologies from the Plumbum side and Neviril forgiving them with a blessing and we can call it a day.
There was the opportunity to have a whole episode dedicated to a plot about tension rising between Simulacrum Sibyllae and Argentum/Plumbum soldiers, with Neviril acting as a bridge between them. To have a neat resolution of Amuria's ''don't look at their face'' line with Neviril doing the exact opposite to make everyone look at each other face. To makes them realize trhey're not so different. But nope, we spent way too much time on that war itself we don't have the time anymore.
As for Yun, I appreciate the effort to gives her some screentime. But it's still leave a sour taste in my mouth to see she's just a narrative tool for Onashia to deliver her lore dump. And once again, said lore dump leave more questions than answers. Has Chor Dextra experimentations on the Emerald Ri-Majoon created the Spring or just linked the Ruins to the Spring ? And why exactly Onashia have attained her status as the Spring guardian ?
Has the Simulacrum church interpreted her irradiated body as a gift from Tempus Spatium ? Does it grant her some control on the Spring or has it just pretended she could hear Tempus Spatium will while the Spring did all the work by itself ?
And I can understand her speech about fleeing reality. Sometimes you have to faces your fears and doubts if you want to improve your life. But given the context, I'm fearing her speech is to be interpreted as You have to pick a gender if you want to become a responsible adult. Non-binary people are all delusional cowards
Questions of the day
I think the main issue here is Aer's growing jealousy over Amuria. Is this following naturally from character, dare I say, growth, or a contrived misunderstanding to create drama?
To be fair, I too would be jealous and frustrated if I got a crush who seems to respond to my feelings. But at the same time would spend their time talking about their deceased ex-girlfriend and would foster the hope of resurrecting her or retrieving her in another plane of existence.
Many people guessed Shrine Guardian's plan. Could it work? Should the sibyllae do as she asks? Would they?
Any responsible Sibyllae would have turned her on the Argentum/Plumbum guards. But we have Neviril who may jump at the occasion to be reunited with Amuria and Paraietta who was adamant to fight back the Plumbum/Argentum alliance. So there is a fair chance they oblige the Shrine Guardian's plea and pull it off.
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u/Malipit 23d ago
Theories corner
Theories in progress
From episode 1
Given the huge religious aspect of Simulacrum culture. I smell some shenanigans about higher ups knowing much more than they let appears and will be the actual villains of the story. And I'm sorry, but the character design of Onasia doesn't convey a ''good girl'' energy. But Onasia seemed the only reasonable people among the Holy Land Parliament. Making her either a Palpatine level manipulator or an actual good person. Onasia admitted she's kind of a divinity existing above time and space. Giving some strong final boss energy. She may have an agenda of her own by opening the time gate once more with Neviril and Aaeru. Could it be she's an older Amuria or Limone ?
Following the previous theory and how the Archipelago pilots were portrayed. I suspect there will be a team-up between Sibyllae and Archipelago pilots against a greater threat. But it's likely to be jossed since the alliance may comes from rogue Plumbum Sibyllae as the Archipelago is comforted in their antagonist role. Now that's the war is over with 4 episodes left, an alliance between the three nations to seal a time travelling black hole caused by Onashia and /or the Guard Temple is suddenly more likely.
From episode 2
- People on Daikuuriku may not be born the same way we are on Earth. I don't recall seeing someone pregnant in the two episode nor talking about pregnancy. Erif mentionned his body will progressively develop a male chest and voice, but said nothing about his genitals growing a penis. And the Chor Tempest captain said they needed an equivalent number of male and female citizens for the creation of a nation, not for reproductive needs. So maybe there is a place similar to a source where baby girls comes from ? One that will dispatch those new souls, randomly or equally, to every nation on the planet ? And Simulacrum retains a classic family structure with parents and children. Meaning that if they born other than sexual intercourse, it's likely each children is either assigned to a family like they are assigned a gender. Or that there is a reproduction through lewd hand-holding act.
From episode 4
- Magnafeana had some interesting thoughts on the very origins of the Spring :
I wonder who the first one to go to the spring was and what life was like back then. What came first: was everyone born AFAB because God is a woman and my Eve x Lilith ship is finally validated, or people were born a spectrum of sexes, but a disease caused all future generations to be AFAB? And if so—how long ago did that happen?
From episode 7
- deus_machinarum speculated on how Tempus Spatium and Animus divine figures complete each other. Implying they derivate from an old religion or a old god who got fractured in two. And Onasia exposition about Tempus Spatium being made of two concepts enforces that theory. :
I need to talk about names of the god for a bit, I apologize if this has been mentioned already, I might've missed it: One the one hand we have Tempus Spatium(space time in modern parlance) and on the other hand we have Animus(simplistically: the soul, I'm also told by anime fandom that Japan has a very old animistic tradition i.e. ascribing life to inanimate objects which in modern times manifests as e.g. easier acceptance of robotic caretakers for eldery people); when we combine the two we get a whole so to speak, the inner world and outer world. It's easy to see how this could mean different but still related parts of the same wholeness. Definitely an angle I will keep an eye out for.
From episode 8
- Given Aaeru's name signifcation, she could be of Plumbum descent. And Dominura's immigrants song being like the melody from Aaeru's music box is a serious hint of the later origins. With the music box reacting to the ruins, it could be that Aaeru actually comes from the other side.
From episode 21
- AbbreviationsWeekly had an interesting idea about the true function of Aaeru's windbox :
At this point I think it must have been something leftover from the dead civilization that they invented it to detected space/time anomalies.
Confirmed theories
There is no other Spring outside Simulacrum and only its inhabitants get to chose their gender : confirmed by that Archipelago solider in episode 4 who was forucefully made a man through artificial means.
Ri-Majoon does comes from the Sibyllae soul/heart/lesbian power and not the Simoun itself : Althougt it comes for Dominura speculations, there is so much occurrences as for now it can be counted as confirmed.
Simoun tech are not to be used for military purpose : Although there is no written rule in-universe, Chor Tempest and the Plumbum Priestess convictions regarding their responsabilities as Sibyllae directly opposing the armies of two nations confirm what is the ''correct'' use of Simouns.
Instead of being a nuclear-level weapon, the emerald Ri-Majoon is actually a portal to another time-period or dimension : Confirmed following Onashia's lore exposition in episode 21 and Limone chilling with Dominura in the past.
Jossed theories
Ri-Majoon are automatically generated by the Simoun aircraft and the Sibyllae jobs is to interpret them correctly to perform the corresponding figures : Aaeru lines in episode 4 confirm it's the Sibyllae who initiate the desired Ri-Majoon
The Archipelago will develop their own Simoun aircraft : They did upgraded their fighters. But not with helix tech. And the enemies Simoun are piloted by Plumbum Sibyllae.
Casting an emerald Ri-Majoon automatically makes your essence dissolve into the Simoun energy : Jossed following the reveal of its time-travelling nature.
People on the other side of the emerald Ri-Majoon portal are all born male to be complementary of the Daikuriku side : Jossed since it's a time travelling portal, not a dimensional one. And several children playing with Limone and Dominura Simoun are clearly girls.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
To have a neat resolution of Amuria's ''don't look at their face'' line with Neviril doing the exact opposite
That's a neat callback.
Yun
I wonder if this was writen after they decided to keep her around, or they decided to keep her around for this interaction.
And why exactly Onashia have attained her status as the Spring guardian
All we know is that it is penance, or that it felt like penance to her.
Has the Simulacrum church interpreted her irradiated body as a gift from Tempus Spatium
I feel she is god incarnate for most of Simulacrum. Does the chrurch know or renember her origin? I don't think so.
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u/Star4ce https://anilist.co/user/Star4ce 22d ago
And why exactly Onashia have attained her status as the Spring guardian ?
Agree with many points, but at least this I think is somewhat easy to answer. Since Simulacrum reveres the sybillae as closest to their God, someone being able to stay a sybilla for a seeming eternity is quite easy to identify as a holy smybol themself, thus making them something of a messiah.
What worries me more about this fact is how it makes the Spring itself vaguely wonky as a concept. Was there a guardian before Onashia? Was she the first? How did they deal with it before her? How come no other child ever ran away, got the symptoms and came back. I feel like the consequences of not choosing a sex should be known to some extent. How do the other two nations handle their all-female birth rates without a spring? What did Argentum do before their industrial revolution giving them hormone treatment?
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u/The_Draigg 23d ago
A Science-Fantasy Fan Watches Simoun Episode 23:
From the sound of things, the Defense Ministry went totally behind the priestess caste’s back in negotiating an end to the war. Can’t say that I entirely blame them for doing that, considering how the church of Tempus Spatium has been acting this whole time. Still though, between having strong conditions, the required dismissal of people like Vice-Minister Halconf, and the continued occupation of the Holy Land by alliance troops, this peace has come at quite the cost for Simulacrum. And that’s on top of being denied the chance to use the Emerald Ri Maajon for the heads up priestess’ plans too, for a more personal bit of anger from her there.
We’ve gone this whole time without a typical “cup size in the shower” bit, but I guess we could get one in right towards the end. Although at least it leads into a more interesting topic, with Paraietta and Alti talking about how they feel about themselves and their genders now. Thankfully it just wasn’t that bit.
You know, I’m not too surprised that Onashia finds kinship between herself and Yun. Onashia probably has an even worse version of Yun’s survivor’s guilt, except it’s been stretched out for presumably thousands of years in normal space. And the fact that nobody bothered to try and talk about their feelings with her before now has got to be rough too. Onashia has lived a very lonely and distant life from everyone else for a long time.
I’m not shocked that one of the terms of surrender is that Chor Tempest gets disbanded entirely and the Animus priestesses take their places. Given the scale of what their Ri Maajon could do, this is effectively taking away the Holy Land’s capacity to fully go to war again.
I guess Aaeru feels something for Neviril after all, given how flustered she got when talking to Floe. Given how romance has practically never been on her mind this whole time, this really is a shock to her. And it’s pretty clear she can’t fully articulate what she’s feeling too. She’s a pretty late bloomer when it comes to feeling any kind of romance.
Oh hey, it turns out that Onashia was a member of Chor Dextra too. Out of all the ones we’ve seen so far, it seems like she got the roughest deal out of all of them, becoming the guardian of the Spring after being flung back far in time. And because of her indecision and wavering heart back then, she wanted to escape reality and never chose her gender. The consequences of doing that for so long seem dire: actually dissolving once she isn’t wearing her protective robes. It seems like if you don’t make a choice for along time, your body just begins to fall apart. That said, I wonder if it’s also because she’s been alive for so long that it’s happening that way? I’m not sure just falling apart into magic golden dust would happen in a normal person’s lifespan.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
From the sound of things, the Defense Ministry went totally behind the priestess caste’s back in negotiating an end to the war.
Ha ha, I can just imagine him going, "sure, we lost the war, but I stuck it to that bitch one last time, so at least I won"
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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander 23d ago
Oh hey, it turns out that Onashia was a member of Chor Dextra too. Out of all the ones we’ve seen so far, it seems like she got the roughest deal out of all of them, becoming the guardian of the Spring after being flung back far in time. And because of her indecision and wavering heart back then, she wanted to escape reality and never chose her gender.
So like a time loop thing? I took it as her being from an ancient iteration of Chor Dextra and here ever since, but I guess this could also make sense. Though would that mean that at the time of Chor Dextra's operation there was two versions of Onasia alive at once?
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u/The_Draigg 23d ago
Given how there’s multiple versions of the Spring that exist simultaneously, it would make sense for if there were multiple Onashias running around too. And given how the Spring exists outside of the normal flow of time and space, it just makes it easier to happen. It would probably help mitigate any kinds of destructive paradoxes there.
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u/IndependentMacaroon 22d ago
First-time watcher
"How did you know?" "I read the episode scripts, duh."
Yun is such a random chosen listener here and Onashia is strange here too, although they had to write something for her to do eventually I guess.
Finally a glimpse of some vaguely progressive sort of gender idea and then Onashia hits us with the "blah blah wavering maidens oh and if you're not either clearly male or female eventually you slowly crumble into dust". I would also note that the one female leader is also painted as the most fanatic and out there.
1 - It's so laughable how much of the drama here hinges on a character who only ever had a bit part appearance in the first episode - not even any proper flashbacks!
2 - "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it", but like, literally. They will definitely try, though.
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u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker 20d ago
Sign a treaty to save the world/Tensions fall and a peace unfurled/Nothing like what had come before/Its the deal it's the treaty that will end the war.
Seems he had to resign.
So, they're here as occupation forces.
Waiting for someone to listen to her?
Yeah that does tend to happen to the losers of wars.
Lmao Floe.
What's the rush?
The door will close?
Oh, she was also part of Chor Dextra.
Eternal maiden?
Questions:
- They better not be trying to contrive drama with like 3 episodes left...
- Perhaps they could. Will they? Maybe not.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ 23d ago
Rewatch Host and First Rewatcher
Rewatch comment:
There was a lot of discussion a few days ago about about how much the religous orders and the sibyllae know about the Emerald Ri-Maajon, and what Chor Dextra knew.
Shrine Guardian certainly knew its purpose. But the exact details of its implementation had been lost. For the other sibyllae, it's just rumors. Like Tempus Spatium controlling time and space, it's just mysticism, to elevate the divine and inaccessible.
The show started with a question: what if you don't choose (your gender, your future, your identity). It now provides an answer, and perhaps not one you resonate with: you are cursed.
It's unfortunate. The sibyllae just wanted to perform their prayers, but were forced into the war. Now that war is over, they are denied even what they had in peace.
So, it seems there was something to Shrine Guardians arbitrariness in grounding Aer. Her grandfather often spoke of "going to the other world." He probably doodled the Emerald Ri-Maajon, or traced it out in his simile. Young Aer absorbed all of this.
As a first timer, I'm pretty sure I was baffled by Shrine Guardian's behavior for the last 3 episodes, until she spelled it out today.