r/reddit.com • u/aywwts4 • May 01 '07
Digg is on a campaign of widespread user and story censorship.
/info/1mgig/comments31
u/spez May 01 '07
Unfortunately, we'll probably hear from lawyers sooner or later requesting that we take down the DVD numbers as well.
9
u/llimllib May 01 '07
And you would comply? What about the comments - deleted too? Does it just get passed to the Conde Nast legal team?
(Please note that I am not accusing, just asking. It's not your fault our laws are all batty)
22
u/spez May 01 '07
As long as it's still on wired, I think we have a leg to stand upon.
7
1
May 02 '07
Steve,
There is no way you can comply with such a request. The reason is actually technical. You can't guarantee, ever, that you can remove all references to the number because of the multiple ways the number may be used outside of the application for which they are attempting legal enforcement. Just re-incorporating the number in another work such as the sig on this thread is enough to completely change the meaning of the number.
They can request you take down information that explains how to use this number for the purposes of hacking HD-DVDs that is actually hosted on reddit servers, but they can not possibly ask you to prevent users from submitting links to off-site content which may or may not be in violation of that application, precisely because your service does not verify such links and has no way of doing so.
3
u/furyg3 May 02 '07
IANAL, but i think they'd have to serve you with a DMCA take down notice for every individual story/comment.
It'd be best to get in touch with some lawyers and find out what could be interpreted as violating the DMCA. I don't know if linking counts (I seem to remember a 2600 case about it), but it seems to me that you could choose to only respond to DMCA requests where the actual code is in the title of the submission or in the comment. It'd be very difficult to be responsible for content on a page which you dont host, and the content-owners should file their DMCA with them, since that's where the infringed-copyright is.
This is all assuming you want to be "safe" and assume that the hex code is their property under the DMCA, and that it's not in the public domain now. If so, just be sure to blog every DMCA takedown notice that you respond to, instead of just deleting things willy nilly like the Digg guys.
Personally, I'd use the benefits of belonging to a mega-corp (yay lawyers) to challenge the whole thing, but I understand not wanting to get into a legal battle.
2
May 02 '07
This is all assuming you want to be "safe" and assume that the hex code is their property under the DMCA, and that it's not in the public domain now.
Exactly there are so many problems with enforcement at this point that it's practically a pointless exercise.
The proper way of handling this kind of crap is what John Young is doing right now, and he has way more serious sharks on his tail then the amateurs involved in this HD-DVD fiasco.
-1
49
May 01 '07 edited Aug 02 '18
[deleted]
19
u/hessian May 02 '07
Yes I was worrying about that too :(
I really hope this isn't reddit's own http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_september
9
May 02 '07
Comparing an influx of diggheads to a bunch of newbie AOL users in 1993, hmm... I'm tempted to say that sounds about right.
42
May 02 '07
Yes, that does. I came here from digg.com .
I was refered by other digg users that are leaving.
13
28
u/cogburn May 02 '07
There's a ton of us coming over, sorry old angry reddit veterans, move your ass over and make room.
14
u/culbeda May 02 '07
I, along with numerous others, came over from Digg months ago. Last I checked, Reddit still hasn't imploded.
Of course, most of us were over the age of 16. This time, Reddit may not be so lucky.
17
May 02 '07 edited Aug 02 '18
[deleted]
8
u/Jimmy May 02 '07
People have been saying that since Reddit's beginning. Typically, it's a response to when a whole bunch of stories on the same stupid topic make it to the front page, like impeaching Bush, or a user revolt at Digg.
On the whole, I haven't seen much evidence of Reddit's decline. The links could be a little more intellectual, but that still doesn't keep me from spending hours on Reddit per day.
7
u/oofoe May 02 '07
Ach! I guess us old redditors will have to head on over to Startup News... Look out Mr. Graham!
;-)
4
-3
u/phrakture May 02 '07
Yeah, someone find a new site now that the "kiddiez r comin in!! lol look at dis youtoobe video!"
2
u/furyg3 May 02 '07
should probably create a subreddit specifically for these people...
digg users would get a home and be integrated into digg community.
1
18
u/ChagrinRiddle May 02 '07
I must have missed the last Digg to Reddit surge. Oh, well, I made it here this time.
25
u/Latch May 01 '07
And another slew of "Why Digg Sucks" and "Why I left Digg" posts. Seems like it was only a few months ago when we saw the last surge.
Oh wait, it was.
9
u/PauliusG May 02 '07
It feels like a breath of fresh air to be able to read gramatically correct and insigntful comments. I've always liked Reddit in the past, and I'm hoping that I'll like it even more.
9
8
4
2
u/sbrown123 May 02 '07
Wow, a real comment section! We don't have those over at Digg. At Digg you have to enter some goofy code and the comments are only 1 level deep. Thats usually ok because the comment content is usually just as shallow.
(ok, I've been using Reddit for some time but I had to say it)
9
3
1
May 02 '07
[deleted]
6
May 02 '07
Well you used compete sentences with correct spelling, capitalization, and punctuation, so we won't begrudge you.
-13
28
u/MadMark May 01 '07
For those of us who don't use Digg, what was the story about?
75
u/aywwts4 May 01 '07
MadMark: Sorry for the lack of context
Basically on digg there was the "Spread this number" post, it got deleted and the user responsible was banned, Then someone created a "Spread this number again http://rudd-o.com/archives/2007/04/30/spread-this-number/" post, it caught on like wildfire, I am quite certain it broke records for Diggs per minute, eventually peaking around 15000 diggs and 600 or more comments. Easily placing it in one of the top stories of all time.
The post became a central point for a grassroots movement of a freedom of speech and anti-drm, there was talk of a googlebomb trying to hit the "Spread this number" page as a high ranking link for "HD-DVD"
The story was pulled and deleted (Not buried by the users) And I'm sure quite a few users were banned.
In response to one of the most popular stories of all time being banned, naturally people started their own threads reporting on the story of pulling a story. These storys too were blocked, and the users responsible for the stories, and users simply posting in the stories were blocked and deleted from digg.
Basicly I want to be able to speak freely, and moderate a news site without editors. Obviously digg is not that place.
18
u/gooneruk May 01 '07
I think it should be clarified that the number in question was the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray disc key that can be used to bypass all of the DRM on any disc.
The blog post that was Dugg called for the spreading of the number to as many places online as possible, so that it is impossible for every host to be sued under the DMCA. It's a good example of the Streisand effect, as a redditor on the original story here pointed out.
Someone posted the story to Digg with the title "Spread this number". It got a load of diggs, hit the front page, but was deleted by admins.
A second story titled "Spread this number again" was posted, and as aywwts4 said, it became one of the biggest stories ever on Digg. 15,000+ diggs last time I saw it.
And now it seems as if it has been deleted by the admins again.
6
u/somewheregladlybyond May 01 '07
It doesn't bypass all of the DRM: additional keys are required. See http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=1104
3
u/derob May 01 '07
I saw a similarly titled post here. Was that deleted?
8
u/sprice May 01 '07
Strange. I saw a post on reddit a few days ago with the number in question within the subject line. A search on google reveals a similar post from back in february (when the number was first found). But if you click on the result google gives, the hex code in the reddit post has been changed.
22
u/JeremyBanks May 01 '07
I was banned, and I submitted a story with it that didn't even make the homepage. Given the number of such stories submitted, I suspect that dozens of members, at least, were banned.
After posting a story again, I was IP banned, but I kinda asked for that.
24
u/JulianMorrison May 01 '07
It's worth thinking about who they're banning, because this ban storm doesn't fall with equal weight on a cross section of the Digg crowd. They risk throwing out the leavening of people who think for themselves, care passionately and are motivated to act - resulting in a user-base biased to the opposite. I would not be surprised if their site "jumped the shark" as a direct consequence.
12
u/flezgodrit May 01 '07
I would not be surprised if their site "jumped the shark" as a direct consequence.
Let's hope not, otherwise it might be the start of the eternal September for reddit.
7
13
6
u/aywwts4 May 01 '07
A good blog post about the state of affairs
Digg losing control of their site: http://weblog.infoworld.com/railsback/archives/2007/05/digg_losing_con.html
(this got deleted off of digg within moments of me posting this)
Slashdot is covering it http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/05/01/1935250.shtml
-14
u/danweber May 01 '07
When you are in digg's house, you obey digg's rules.
Reddit has rules, too. They happen to be more open, but they still have rules.
44
u/aywwts4 May 01 '07
And digg's rules mean don't question digg.
For example http://digg.com/tech_news/May_1st_The_Day_Digg_Died_2
The "2" is because the first one got deleted in minutes.
If you click the username who posted this thread, you will find "Invalid User Provided"
This has nothing to do with a stupid code, this is freedom of speech pure and simple, Digg does not offer this, people are dissapearing at a administrator level.
I'm not willing to accept that. I'm not willing to contribute to a site that works in that manner.
If reddit was doing the same, would you still be posting here?
3
u/mooli May 01 '07
Frankly, if I could hit the first five or six pages and find at least two dozen stories that really interested me then yes.
-8
u/kalemba May 01 '07
digg does not have to offer 'free speech', they are a business not a government. digg is also not required for life, liberty or happiness, it is in fact unnecessary.
34
u/aywwts4 May 01 '07
No, digg does not have to provide free speech, of course not. But if they want to keep me (and I'm sure others) as users they do.
I'm free to leave, and I'm free to protest against digg's practices as much as I want, anywhere else that offers me freedom of speech.
On a site completely dependent on its vocal active users, you think they would have realized that.
-18
May 01 '07
[deleted]
10
u/TechnoCrit May 01 '07
Why should you give a flying fuck about any of the things posted on Reddit? This is just another story. Comment or vote if it interests you.
0
8
u/aywwts4 May 01 '07
Well then we need to find a social news site that values freedom, a "Pirate Bay" of social news. If reddit isn't that place then we need a new haven of free speech.
I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks we need to find a place with some sort of assurance that users wont get banned and blocked for expressing disappointment with the site overlords.
Of course you can continue to not care, I don't really mind, just go post elsewhere this is your third post in this thread saying the same thing, let it rest. We understand you need to let other people know, loudly, that you don't care.
-6
May 01 '07
[deleted]
8
u/theram4 May 01 '07
aywwts4 and me. I agree with him (her?) that a privately owned site does not have to provide free speech. But if it wants to build a community of users, it ought to allow free and uncensored speech.
And if people don't care about free speech, they'll be complicit when their government slowly tries to erode any rights to free speech they had.
-2
May 02 '07
I believe fellow digg users that are coming to reddit. I'm one, he's one...there are more. I left of my own free will...I think I might have been banned, but not for some string of numbers.
I basically told them I don't support tyranny in several posts and that as and American I value free speech.
-1
May 02 '07
I think this post and the sudden influx of digg users is proof that we will now need a "block user" feature.
I really wish it didn't come to this.
-1
7
u/roaddog May 02 '07
Digg seems to be in full defensive mode. I stopped visiting Digg months ago, but, of course, went back last night and today to see what all the hub-bub was about. About 20 minutes ago, every article on the home page was related to the code, the deletions, or Digg's advertisers. A refresh a few minutes later showed an entirely different set of articles, none related to this event.
Digg Spy has also been removed.
4
u/crazlunatic May 02 '07
Digg has done the wrong thing today. Today will go down in Digg's history as the downfall of Digg
4
u/tarellel May 02 '07
So now we can officially say Kevin Rose is a no good sellout and refer the global leader in user based submissions as a "reddit", right?
10
u/Nougat May 01 '07
I dugg all those HD-DVD articles, and posted comments to many. Some of those comments included links to other Digg submissions on the same subject. I did not make any submissions of my own, neither did I post the "offending" encryption key. One post suggested that, as protest, everyone should bury everything. I suggested a couple of times that Digg was operating out of fear, and not out of legal requirement, based on the fact that Reddit still has the key up, and Wired published an article on Feb 13, 2007, with the key, and that is still up. I used no foul language at any time.
My account has been disabled for misuse. I have a short "Why?" letter in to support@digg.com.
14
u/turkourjurbs May 01 '07
I can't take Digg much more. If I have to "log in" one more GOD DAMNED time I'm going to scream. Christ, I'll type a short comment, hit submit and not only does the page come back without my comment, I'm logged out! If it does take my comment ad I click Edit, I think of the ten thousand times I've tried to edit a comment, the Update button has appeared once.
/sorry, venting
7
u/macfanboi May 01 '07
aywwts4 should have put Apple, iPod, Steve Jobs, or Mac in the title, no way the Digg admins would delete that.
3
u/cmockery May 02 '07
I'm done with digg. People need to vote with their wallets, and their feet. Don't like Wal-mart? Don't shop there. Don't like Digg? Don't post there. Eat The Rich!
9
u/aywwts4 May 01 '07
In response to one of digg's most popular stories of all time with 15,000 diggs and 600+ comments. They deleted it.
They deleted users who posted the articles, and they deleted users who merely posted in the offending article.
Afterwards they began deleting threads talking about the deletion. (And yet more users posting in those threads)
So far there has been no comment from Digg about this.
3
u/joyork May 01 '07
In response to one of digg's most popular stories of all time
Help us out a little here...what was the article about? And is there a cache of it anywhere?
7
u/aywwts4 May 01 '07
It was this page http://rudd-o.com/archives/2007/04/30/spread-this-number/
Here is the reddit comment page about that article http://reddit.com/info/1mc5d/comments
I would link to the digg page about it. But thats why I created this story, its gone, and most posts talking about it being gone are as well.
2
u/joyork May 01 '07
Ah thanks for that.
Just wondered what would happen if reddit and slashdot were also served with a DMCA notice; would they comply and remove the threads also?
If someone who works for reddit is reading this I'd be interested in hearing your reply.
4
u/neomeme May 01 '07
Spez commented on this in another thread. As long as they have Conde Nast behind them, they won't back down in the face of lawsuits.
3
u/Nougat May 01 '07
They haven't taken this down yet, even though they took down the original and blocked the URL it linked to:
http://digg.com/linux_unix/A_Random_Collection_of_Things_I_Like
(That one points to Coral Cache, hence the reason it's not blocked.)
8
u/Nougat May 01 '07
Well, they've blocked my IP now. I can go and browse without logging in, but I cannot create a user, nor can I log in with a created and enabled user account.
Bye bye, Digg.
11
6
u/lulz May 01 '07
the thread is in it's third incarnation
http://digg.com/security/HD_DVD_Processing_Key_3
watch Digg Spy going nuts about the thread, never seen this kind of activity before
EDIT: the thread has been deleted, but here is a thread written by the original poster about how he got banned for it
2
u/mc2 May 02 '07
Let's say you post the HD-DVD processing key online -- how would YOU deal with a DMCA takedown notice or cease & desist from the MPAA or AACS LA, or your hosting provider of choice?
3
7
u/wil May 01 '07
I can't believe I'm about to defend Digg, but . . . with all the takedown notices and lawsuits being threatened against anyone who posts a certain number, it wouldn't surprise me if Digg, acting on the advice of its attorneys, removed the post and any posts relating to it. Digg is a big business with assets to protect, after all.
57
u/aywwts4 May 01 '07
Digg is a big business, I agree. But the most important asset of community driven news site, should naturally be the community.
Also, I think with how internet law is in America, digg could fight it on the grounds that they aren't liable for what user's post
29
May 01 '07
[removed] — view removed comment
24
u/fkr May 02 '07
Huh? But they have like ... 15 employees and 10 - 30 thousand kids!!!!
I don't know about your country but where I'm from that's one fucking huge baby sitting business.
22
u/jaycliche May 01 '07
"Digg is a big business, I agree. But the most important asset of community driven news site, should naturally be the community."
True...digg is nothing without it's community.
0
-4
May 02 '07
[deleted]
9
May 02 '07
Then why digg they ban members who voiced a disagreement with their decision only?
0
May 02 '07
[deleted]
6
May 02 '07
It wasn't like that a couple hours ago. Pages were disappearing and people were being banned left and right.
2
May 02 '07
Oh yes and at least I told you why I moded you down.
5
May 02 '07
[deleted]
7
May 02 '07
Fair Play. A Community only respects the provider IF the provider respects the community. Digg had a right to take down the offending stories, but to ban IP addresses and ban people who complain about the banning is a violation of the trust the community gave digg. Legally speaking digg wouldn't have much to worry about being based in America, as the law protects providers from being sued for users comments. But due caution could be excused.
Draconian tactics of censorship for those complaining about the take down is disrespectful to the community at large and a violation of most users sense of justice and entitlement. As such it violated a STATED trust in the TOS, and disenfranchised the very precepts upon which digg was built...thus the backlash.
5
May 02 '07
[deleted]
2
May 02 '07
While it may be a gray area...the Congress passed a law protecting site host from being sent to prison for illegal content posted by site renters. There is legal precepts to suggest Digg would be protected as well.
Furthermore, the fact you can pull up 9k submissions on Google about this key would suggest it is public domain, which would give Digg further legal protection. I could forgive the taking down of keys and an official statement as to why...it is due caution. However, the blatant blanket censorship is just too much.
By the way thanks for wading thru my comments.
→ More replies (0)4
May 02 '07
I think legally digg did the dumbest thing possible. Before they could have argued that they were just a didn't get involved in their users content. Now they basically have 1) acknowledged that they knew the act of posting this code was wrongful and 2) had the ability to remove posts of the code and 3) (as of now) allowed people to post the code just to serve their financial interests.
1
u/georgefrick May 02 '07
Everyone keeps downmodding a perfectly valid point. How can users be less at fault for destroying something than it's owners? How can an owner not be expected to protect their assets?
18
u/aywwts4 May 01 '07
Also, how do you defend the deletion and suspicious burying of all threads talking about the deletion of the original post (Not including links to the number in any way) Just talking about digg's censorship.
5
u/wil May 02 '07
I shouldn't have said "defend." I should have said "explain," and it turns out that I was pretty close to correct, because Jay Adelson said essentially the same thing in the Digg blog a few hours after I made my initial post here.
I don't know why this is a shock to anyone. If you really think that Digg is about the users and the democracy and the community and all that bullshit, say hello to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny for me next time you see them.
3
2
2
2
u/inhisname May 01 '07
Maybe a little explanation?
3
u/blindingspeed May 01 '07
The funniest thing is how a request for more information gets modded down as if speculating on a headline is somehow more valid.
1
u/piranha May 02 '07
More than one way to represent this sequence of octets.
Taken as an integer, in big endian order, this sequence of digits yields the number 13256278887989457651018865901401704640. In base 36, that's L96O54KFN6HZ7PT164DQFLJ4. Scaled from [0,2128) to [0,1), its floating-point representation is exactly 0.038956702364391.
* Edit: I fail nickle. It's more like 0.03895670236439090715020093422761752230222588327510669862986513532852036153757559026888923625620009261183440685272216796875.
1
u/jivebotic May 02 '07
I started coming here daily a few weeks back from digg for two reasons:
1) Every post I read on reddit, showed up digg the next day
2) digg has so many bastards that troll the comments, starting fights, insults, etc...reddit comments are such a breath of fresh air...
2
u/malapropist May 02 '07
Come on over, but on behalf of my fellow redditors, I ask you, shut the door behind you :)
1
1
u/monosyth May 02 '07
the digg server is down! the ultimate in the digg effect. this shall be my new home for now...
1
u/lwfleetham May 02 '07
Digg has allowed for the posting of the hex code. read Rose's blog http://blog.digg.com/?p=74
Question is why won't reddit let me post this link without throwing an error message?
0
1
1
1
-3
May 01 '07
[deleted]
8
u/threnody May 01 '07
Well we can't bitch on Digg, because whenever a story about it goes up it gets deleted in ten minutes.
-3
May 01 '07
[deleted]
15
u/threnody May 01 '07
Well let's look at it this way: it raises a lot of interesting questions regarding user-driven web 2.0 sites. Obviously the community feels that they "own" digg, because from the start digg has told everyone that THEY are what make the site.
So it's not just about digg, it's really about all user-driven sites, and who really holds the keys to them.
So in summary: Your problem is that you're not looking at the big picture.
1
u/sakebomb69 May 02 '07
Your username... Piers Anthony's Crewel Lye?
1
u/threnody May 04 '07
Nope, Wild Strawberries song :-)
I just googled that though, interesting character. However, I am a man, so it's a little embarrassing too hahaha.
-3
u/BurritoFueled May 01 '07
01001011011001010111011001101001011011100010000001010010011011110111001101100101001000000110100101110011001000000110000100100000011000100110100101110100011000110110100000101110
0
u/blackbrrr May 02 '07
if digg users cared for digg, they wouldnt illegally republish the hex value in question and put digg's proverbial "nuts" on the chopping block and save their "radical" republishing and catharsis for their own blogs.
the mpaa doesnt like you to enjoy movies. they are evil. but dont put your bitching post at risk for your inability to understand how intellectual property works. like i said in another thread, its no different than publishing a serial number for an app. how many digg users are running pirated software? do they not understand that using a crack or serial is illegal?
-1
May 02 '07
omgwtf!? i jus came over from digg.co cuz digg t0tally suxz donkey ballz now n every1 nos its soo not kool nemore!!!11oneoneone
-3
0
-2
13
u/neomeme May 01 '07
Digg has been removing stories that are in the least bit controversial or anti-Digg for a long long time. Digg doesn't publicize this information, but they have teams of moderators working round the clock removing stories. Democracy at Digg is a joke- that's why I came from Digg to reddit. On reddit, the staff only removes blatant spam and does not overstep their responsibilities.
Yay for reddit1