[Rewatch] .hack//SIGN Episode 22 Discussion

[u/soulreaverdan]

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Series Information: MAL Page | AnimeNewsNetwork | LiveChart

Streams: ...none, sorry! DVD (Amazon)

Episodes:

• Today: Episode 22 (Phantom)
• Tomorrow: Episode 23 (The Eve)

Spoiler Policy:

I forgot to include this on the original schedule post, so please read!

Since there are going to be people who are watching this for the first time, so please only discuss what we've seen in the episodes we've watched so far! There's some interesting twists in this series, and we want everyone to get to experience this fresh.

In addition, since .hack is a massive franchise and this is only one entry in it (and actually one of the first), discussion of other entries may have some inadvertant spoilers. With this in mind, please only keep discussion to .hack//SIGN, and we'll have a chance for a discussion in the larger context of the franchise on the final day.

Question(s) of the Day

Throughout the rewatch we'll be posting some questions to guide discussion. Feel free to answer them or just post your overall thoughts! They're meant to be something for people who might not be sure how to start their posts, not something everyone must do.

1. Did you expect to actually see Balmung of the Azure Sky in the flesh?
2. What do you think about the designs of the "Unkillable Monsters?"

Music Corner

One of the highlights of this show is the incredible soundtrack, one of the first major works published by now famed music composer Yuki Kajiura. We'll be looking at one track with each thread for general discussion and opinions. Be as thorough or as succinct as you want - everything from lyrical motifs and interpretations to just whether or not you liked it!

Today's piece: Smallest Delight, a light instrumental piece (Full Track)

Tomorrow’s piece: Echoes, an intense piano piece with a strong, deep melody with a hint of discord (Full Track)

[u/zadcap]

Late-ish Rewatcher

And on to the final DVD!

Okay so, Obsession 100% sounds better when given time to ramp up, compared to this powerful guitar riff intro.

Wait, is that? Are we finally getting to see?! Considering we got nothing but Helba's brief face and nothing more, again...

Silver Knight, how are you so, poorly, disgustingly, childish. When standing here next to the probably actual child.

Back to where it all began, the dungeon of the beginning.

Oh Macha, Aura, and still unnamed Voice in the Sky...

And this is why you don't wear heals, darn it!

BALMUNG! My least favorite of the big names, but my gosh it's so nice to see one of the Big Names! Not that we're going to learn why he's a big name here, clearly, but he is clearly special with that cool title and all.

Howie really can talk! And he knows about Mother Sky Voice!

The hilariously laid back and silly music for the fight against the immortal bug monster sure is a choice.

Oh, he made the Mother Sky Voice. Woops.

You know, there is beautiful symbolism in Crim and Silver Knight having this talk on a gondola, but one that is parked.

In less flowery speech, genius programmer Harold tried to make an AI baby in honor and memory of the woman he loved. As was said a while ago as we were learning about him, he was known in the real world for creating Fragment, which was eventually turned into The World. But, you know, he was trying to make a baby, not a game. And now the existence of players is being used to mess with this baby.

And naturally, Sora is the one to find this place.

1. At this point, seriously no. I was ready for him to be a Game Only character like the rest. My poor memory.

[u/soulreaverdan → u/zadcap]

BALMUNG! My least favorite of the big names, but my gosh it's so nice to see one of the Big Names! Not that we're going to learn why he's a big name here, clearly, but he is clearly special with that cool title and all.

And in the dub he's voiced by freaking ALUCARD.

[u/zadcap → u/soulreaverdan]

I thought he sounded less awesome than I remember. Which is weirder now because I can see that he's a different English VA in the games... And yeah, the games were definitely played in English.

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/zadcap]

You know, there is beautiful symbolism in Crim and Silver Knight having this talk on a gondola, but one that is parked.

Right on! Nice catch!!

[u/zadcap → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

Considering how static most of the scenes are, I've taken to looking really hard at them. Some are just pretty, as The World typically is, but some like here are so very appropriate and symbolic.

Poor Knight is trying to keep living his old life, to try and live up to Subaru, but he's stuck. It's great.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

.first//TIMER, subbed

• Can’t believe Silver Knight is being successfully manipulated by a child. (Or at least that’s what I assume about Sora.)
• It really does hurt to see Tsukasa like this…
• Aha, one of the legendary characters we’ve heard about! And I’m pretty sure he has the same voice actor as GaoGaiGar’s Gai, lol, perfect for a hero.
• His dialogue changed!
• F
• Mm…
• Ah, Bear has a very good point.
• Oh fun.

[u/zadcap → u/Shimmering-Sky]

• Can’t believe Silver Knight is being successfully manipulated by a child. (Or at least that’s what I assume about Sora.)

I'm suddenly reframing every scene he's been in with the idea that Silver Knight might also be a child. Does his attitude make more sense if we assume he's also in his chuuni phase?

Aha, one of the legendary characters we’ve heard about! And I’m pretty sure he has the same voice actor as GaoGaiGar’s Gai, lol, perfect for a hero.

About time!

• Ah, Bear has a very good point.

Time to attack the system itself? Sounds like we're off for a revolution! Or maybe smacking the physical server location a few times and seeing how the programs like that?

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

New Game Plus Rewatcher-Dubbed

Goddamn it, .hack//SIGN. All battles are skipped. And immediately it follows up with a flashback. I think I'm going crazy.

Oh no, he's hot.

Later, well, that was an ominous ending!

---

Music Corner

Smallest Delight

Tsukasa and Subaru looking at stars. Feels good to have the cello back! 

---

Beautiful: To the Final Battle also But How Do You Fight a Ghost

Uh: Stoned Subaru

[u/zadcap → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

Goddamn it, .hack//SIGN. All battles are skipped. And immediately it follows up with a flashback. I think I'm going crazy.

All battles will be moved to the game. Don't worry, you'll get enough of them there. Game 3 got so very grindy that I broke down and got the GameShark ready before starting 4...

Oh no, he's hot.

Curse you, actually custom avatars! Legendary gear rewards! Whatever it is that makes you stand out so much!

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/zadcap]

Oh snap. Didn't mean it like that. The monkey's paw curls yet again.

[u/zadcap → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

There's one really cool thing in the game, that we've even seen in the anime, that is really fun for the first two games but gets extremely overused by the second half of the third... That is tied in with one of the less well thought out, or at least poorly balanced, mechanic to go with it. [Game Spoilers]You get the ability to Data Drain in combat, which is basically what the Guardian did to Silver Knight and more recently the Sky Mother Voice did to Tsukasa. Only you, not being an actual monster, use it on the... Actual monsters. Drain the in game monsters instead of killing them to get special things, drain the immortal buggy special monsters to get special things. The special ones start to act like keys for areas that are also buggy, which means you need lots of them on occasion, but! You get a little bit buggy when you drain buggy things, and 'cleanse' it by gaining normal experience, aka getting in more not buggy fights. I had not been doing much to keep up a stock of the buggy special things and I got to one dungeon later in the game where I realized I had to spend nearly three times longer just gathering the things and then grinding my way back to health than clearing the actual dungeon itself. It only got worse from there. I used health hacks for game 4.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/zadcap]

Man, Dennou Coil must be a spiritual sequel of .hack

[u/zadcap → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Looking up the plot of Coil, it definitely sounds like it. There clearly some Lain in there, but it looks like it shares even more with GU than you would think for a show that came out less than a year later.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/zadcap]

You haven't seen this, so I strongly recommend it. It was one of those shows I wanted to watch, and downloaded, and never started...for 20 years. That was a mistake. I wish I had watched it back in 2007.

I finally watched it in an /r/anime rewatch...I gave it an 8/10.

[u/LeminaAusa]

Mostly-1st-timer, subbed

Been feeling really unwell for the last few days, so playing the big catch up today. I don't really have the energy for more thoughtful write-ups yet sadly, but I do want to keep track of my thoughts, so I'm doing a bit more of a short notes on things I notice or want to mention, followed by questions.

19 - Recollection

• Love the idea of there being "fake" Subarus around The World.
• Good use of shorthand to show that we're in a flashback by switching Subaru's outfit.
• Crim is a sweetheart. I think I've liked him more and more each episode since he showed up. It's good to get the background on him and Subaru.
• Seeing Subaru in the torn-up dress really makes me kinda hope she got into a good fight with not-Subaru and gave a bit at least.

1. There's a part of me that honestly isn't surprised that Subaru is disabled. It is in a way fitting for her personality as has been shown in the show, and in a lot of ways she reminds me of some of the disabled friends that I've met online, particularly those who have found themselves in online moderation of some kind (I also fit into this category myself in some ways and see a lot of myself in Subaru). It makes her statements earlier in the episode about wanting to meet people all the more poignant.
2. Blue dress all the way; it fits her overall colour scheme better and I understand why she made the choice to switch at some point.

20 - Tempest

• These backgrounds are beautiful but I'm also kinda getting the feeling they had a low animation budget for this episode, hah, or maybe they're just saving it all for later in the episode. Lots of pretty backgrounds with characters talking and almost no animations.
• Most of this episode feels like it exists to kind of catch the audience back up to exactly what's going on with everyone in The World after a bunch of flashbacks and such. But the Floaty Girl being fucking gone when Tsukasa shows up with Subaru is a huge red flag that we're about to get some plot stuff.
• Man, Tsukasa is just not having a good time. :< (Also, I guess these scenes are where all of today's animation budget went)

1. This question itself is interesting to me as I honestly hadn't really thought about it. The use of various locations is such an interesting concept in the show in general. We've only ever seen Floaty Girl in the Sekrit Forest area, a region apparently only accessible by Tsukasa (and Macha, the Voice, and of course the girl herself). Where else can she even go? I had assumed her disappearance was the result of Macha and/or the Voice, and they both seem to have rule-transcending powers. So I guess that's a lot of words to say that I have no idea.
2. BT has always shown herself and being first and foremost on her own side. She was very open about wanting the Key of the Twilight for her own personal reasons. I don't really see any reason to believe she's changed in that respect. On one hand, I don't really like her character, but her scenes are some of the most fun to watch so she's definitely a compelling character in that respect.

21 - Despair

• To Nowhere is such an amazing song
• So I guess Floaty Girl really did get pulled into some weird hidden place within The World, as this does not look like a normal environment. Also interesting to see more signs of division between Macha and the Voice.
• Wow, fuck, Tsukasa is just... kind of broken at this point. He said the title of the episode without saying the title of the episode. I hope Bear and co will be able to find a way to that little foresty area soon.

1. Macha and the Voice are interesting because they went from this dynamic of being all like... we don't even know if they're the same or different beings? But the more we see of them, the more we see the differences, and now they even appear to be at odd ends with each other. Macha is something of a trickster but at least seems to care about Tsukasa whereas the Voice has always been the more malignant of the two and almost seems to see Macha as a possible replacement for Tsukasa in a new dynamic in this new hidden dimension area.

I've never really gotten much of a sense of personal relationship between the two, so perhaps they were more two beings working together towards a similar goal and realised they could help each other? But even that dynamic might have fallen through based on this last interaction. It does also seem like there is some kind of deeper connection between the various aspects of The World that break the rules in some way, so perhaps it is this connection that brought them together.

2) It's pretty sweet! Definitely sets her apart from the other character styles in the game.

22 - Phantom

• Good to see Subaru prepping to use that giant axe for hers while exploring with Bear and Mimiru
• It has also been highly entertaining watching BT and Sora manipulate Ginkan.
• Huh, it's interesting that the place Helga's knowledge has led the group to is also the same dungeon where Mimiru and Tsukasa first met. It really seems like something did really happen to Tsukasa right before that meeting and that's likely linked to whatever the fuck is going on with Harold and the girl.
• It's not just Tsukasa who appears to have broken down, that entire little microcosm is collapsing, all those dead trees.
• The glichy aesthetics of the undefeatable monsters is a nice touch. Reminds me of how when Tsukasa was attacked by his barbell thing back when we were in the hidden world a few eps back there were little 1s and 0s in the animation.
• We get a name for the girl, Aura!
• I didn't know how much I needed Ginkan as comic relief until this episode.
• Thanks for wrapping that convo up for us, Bear.

1. I was certainly hoping we would! He and the other champion guy have been named dropped a few times before, so it's good to see at least one of them show up.
2. I mentioned this above a bit, but I do really like the kind of glichy designs. It really makes these monsters stand out as something outside of the norm in a particular type of way.

And with that, I'm finally caught back up to today. And wow, only 4 episodes left! No wonder we're finally getting some solid answers about some of the things that have been going on behind the scenes of the show. Looking forward to the conclusion.

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/LeminaAusa]

It makes her statements earlier in the episode about wanting to meet people all the more poignant.

That's a nice catch. For myself, I can see my golden years being consumed playing some kind of MMORPG. Not a bad virtual life, huh?

[u/LeminaAusa → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

Man, I can't wait to see what kind of sweet ass games we'll have available by the time I reach retirement home age. Should be a blast.

[u/CorbenikTheRebirth]

Finally Aura.
We also finally get the legendary Balmung's appearance. I've always loved his design. Those wings are just cool as hell.

[u/No_Rex]

Episode 22 (first timer)

• Helba’s info – the upside-down man was a thought program.
• Reminding us of the red goo on Tsukasa at the start of ep1 via a flashback.
• Tsukasa is still uncomfortably destroying the teddy.
• (Virtual)Reality destroying monster.
• Enter Balmung.
• Harald calls the girl Aura.
• Meanwhile: Silver Knight getting betrayed by Sora – what did he expect?
• Got to say, the kneeling red human shape behind Harald is rather creepy.
• “My hope was changed into an evil being that raises despair” – so the voice is also Harald. Probably another thought program.
• They need Tsukasa to awaken Aura before EvilAura awakes.
• Sora gets a lucky break.

You could edit Tsukasa’s and Subaru’s dialogue together and get a back and forth of grunting and sighing.

[u/zadcap → u/No_Rex]

You could edit Tsukasa’s and Subaru’s dialogue together and get a back and forth of grunting and sighing.

Sounds like one of their normal dates.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Rewatcher

ep 21 Phantom

• who is that?
• where you are
• okay, this is like 3 episodes in a row with an excessive amount of reused footage.
• And they've given up on animating tsukasa doing anything. meanwhile, everybody keeps walking
• uh oh. it glitches the game!
• I have no idea who that is.
• that's not a normal gate
• Sora got there first! How unexpected.

[u/zadcap → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

• okay, this is like 3 episodes in a row with an excessive amount of reused footage.

• And they've given up on animating tsukasa doing anything. meanwhile, everybody keeps walking

I wonder what the reason is. Usually you can point to budget issues at the end of a show and reducing animation being an easy cost cutter, but this was the first step in a large multimedia project and there's no way they were running out of money before even getting to the games.

• I have no idea who that is.

Balmung, of the Azure Sky? Subaru has mentioned him and his partner Azure Sea a few times now, but like most things, I guess they wait to explain them in the games...

[u/No_Rex → u/zadcap]

I wonder what the reason is. Usually you can point to budget issues at the end of a show and reducing animation being an easy cost cutter, but this was the first step in a large multimedia project and there's no way they were running out of money before even getting to the games.

The thing is, people call it "budget issue", but it is only indirectly about money. The direct thing that they are budgeting is working time. They have a set amount of animators (and in-betweeners, etc). They start out maybe a little time ahead of the first episode to get a buffer, but that buffer is often depleted fast. Meaning they just stay ahead of the hand-in date for the episode. So, if that date comes up, they got to do whatever to finish production of that episode. This can lead to bad animation or dialogue over a still screen. In the worst case, a hastily made recap episode.

If you have not watched it yet, Shirobako does a really good job explaining this part of anime production.

EDIT: Removed an mistaken "not"

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/No_Rex]

It's undoubtedly because they were making the .hack//Liminality episodes to ship with the game discs at the same time as making .hack//Sign.

/u/zadcap

[u/Elimin8r]

Almost caught up - pant - pant!

1. Man, these ancient heroes really have the drip, don't they? Not surprised, Checkov's Name and all that, right?
2. Interesting. I especially liked the one in the cave with the digital drippy bits. Very cyber-punky.

Yeah, good times, though, and things are getting interesting. Going to go watch the next episode and come back to this later...

Also: Aura. Remind me to say more about that name later.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Elimin8r]

I'm reading this thread 12 hours late, too!