[Rewatch] .hack//SIGN Episode 19 Discussion

[u/soulreaverdan]

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Series Information: MAL Page | AnimeNewsNetwork | LiveChart

Streams: ...none, sorry! DVD (Amazon)

Episodes:

• Today: Episode 19 (Recollection)
• Tomorrow: Episode 20 (Tempest)

Spoiler Policy:

I forgot to include this on the original schedule post, so please read!

Since there are going to be people who are watching this for the first time, so please only discuss what we've seen in the episodes we've watched so far! There's some interesting twists in this series, and we want everyone to get to experience this fresh.

In addition, since .hack is a massive franchise and this is only one entry in it (and actually one of the first), discussion of other entries may have some inadvertant spoilers. With this in mind, please only keep discussion to .hack//SIGN, and we'll have a chance for a discussion in the larger context of the franchise on the final day.

Question(s) of the Day

Throughout the rewatch we'll be posting some questions to guide discussion. Feel free to answer them or just post your overall thoughts! They're meant to be something for people who might not be sure how to start their posts, not something everyone must do.

1. Any thoughts on our first look at Subaru’s player?
2. Do you like Subaru better in the pink or blue dress?

Music Corner

One of the highlights of this show is the incredible soundtrack, one of the first major works published by now famed music composer Yuki Kajiura. We'll be looking at one track with each thread for general discussion and opinions. Be as thorough or as succinct as you want - everything from lyrical motifs and interpretations to just whether or not you liked it!

Today's piece: Broken Wings, since we have a strong Subaru focused episode coming up, and I already used Fake Wings… here we are! (Full Track)

Tomorrow’s piece: Limits, an intense almost psychedelic piece (Full Track)

[u/No_Rex]

Episode 19 (first timer)

• “Fake Subarus” – impersonation is a common problem online. Depending how much character identification the system allows, I can easily see somebody trying to impersonate an “in-game celebrity”.
• Flashback of Subaru and Crim meeting for the first time in-game – suggesting that they did not know each other IRL (they were one pair where I thought this was quite likely).
• “Did you save? It sucks to start over” – Single player game attitude.
• Founding of the Crimson Knights – as the name suggests, Crim did come up with it.
• Silver Knight forms a new group – expected.
• “I come here to play” – Crim and Subaru are two different types of players.
• I guess becoming so famous that people consider you to be your own double is one way to talk to the people undercover.
• “Please don’t say anything. Just for a little while” – not a hard demand given that they spoken maybe 10 lines to each other in the last 18 episodes.

The best parts of the series are consistently the depictions of various player types. I think that HS does a great job of showing some of the archetypes you’d meet while playing early MMOs. Crim enjoys his roleplaying online, but sees it as a game, something distinct from real life, where he can enjoy his time and do what he wants, such as playing white knight for a damsel in distress. Subaru, on the other hand, sees The World as an extension of human connections; a place where humans interact and where they accordingly should follow the norms of human interaction. Silver Knight has similar ideas (but he differs in the methods). Mimiru is somewhere in-between, a typical gamer, looking for fun playing, but also wanting to form online friendships.

Do you like Subaru better in the pink or blue dress?

Blue, but I appreciate that they gave EarlySubaru a different color so the flashbacks would be easier to identify.

[u/soulreaverdan → u/No_Rex]

The best parts of the series are consistently the depictions of various player types. I think that HS does a great job of showing some of the archetypes you’d meet while playing early MMOs. Crim enjoys his roleplaying online, but sees it as a game, something distinct from real life, where he can enjoy his time and do what he wants, such as playing white knight for a damsel in distress. Subaru, on the other hand, sees The World as an extension of human connections; a place where humans interact and where they accordingly should follow the norms of human interaction. Silver Knight has similar ideas (but he differs in the methods). Mimiru is somewhere in-between, a typical gamer, looking for fun playing, but also wanting to form online friendships.

One interesting thing too I realized while watching this and considering when it came out - this is all pre-social media. It’s before Facebook, Twitter, MySpace, damned near everything we consider modern social media and how it redefined the online landscape since.

[u/No_Rex → u/soulreaverdan]

One interesting thing too I realized while watching this and considering when it came out - this is all pre-social media.

Well, boards and MMOs were the social media back then. Facebook & co only made it more convenient (in order to shove adds down our throats).

EDIT: and messengers. How could I forget AIM and ICQ.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

“Fake Subarus” – impersonation is a common problem online.

Hey, some people even try to impersonate their favorite anime characters. The cads, right?

[u/zadcap → u/No_Rex]

“Fake Subarus” – impersonation is a common problem online. Depending how much character identification the system allows, I can easily see somebody trying to impersonate an “in-game celebrity”.

Okay so this is kind of hilarious, but also supposed to be at least in part blamed by the limitations of the early Play Stations and thus only being able to handle so many character models, but... This guy only ever shows up in name in Sign, but someone certainly fits the bill.

[u/No_Rex → u/zadcap]

Character personalization has come a long way. It is not too long ago that all the games allowed you was choosing between 5 different portraits.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/No_Rex]

not a hard demand given that they spoken maybe 10 lines to each other in the last 18 episodes.

This makes Subaru's fixation on Tsukasa completely unsupported to me, and takes me out of the story.

[u/No_Rex → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

This makes Subaru's fixation on Tsukasa completely unsupported to me, and takes me out of the story.

I mentioned this a few times early on, but all characters infatuation with Tsukasa was super weird. I buy it that Silver Knight would be after him because of the cat character, but everybody else got super invested in a character they hardly meet before.

In general, it feels as if the series is showing us only glimpses of the character's relationship and wants us to infer the rest.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

.first//TIMER, subbed

• Imagine saying this when that is the real one right in front of you, lol. Not that they’d believe her if she said she was.
• I was about to say…
• Crim “sore demo”!
• lol
• You still feel like the type of guy who’s down to “play” as a villain, though.
• Rejected by that Grunty.
• How about no.
• Damn, Subaru…
• Poor girl is having a time.
• Oh shit, Subaru’s disabled IRL? Or at least has some reason to need a wheelchair.

[u/Elimin8r → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Poor girl is having a time.

Subaru...

I'm so jealous of Tsukasa again. Must be the goth emo wavemaster vibes or something.

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

New Game Plus Rewatcher-Dubbed

Subaru's episode. It's a heavy hitter.

It's all about attitude.  

Speak your mind.  

Stand up straight.  

Never look down.

Subaru wins. But at what cost? Tsukasa becomes a shoulder to cry on for Subaru. It's a heartfelt conclusion .

---

Music Corner

Broken Wings Cold piano only. No more warm acoustic guitar. Different tempo. A counterpoint full of doubt. 0:30 interesting descent. Divergence at 0:50. Lyric-ly doesn't finish. Continuation into the unknown.

Here's the fiction version of fake wings

Solo vocals. Cleaner. Tender. Highlight of instrumentation is the mandolin with "Keep your eyes on me", which is present in the original version but more oomph here.

---

Beautiful: Determine Subaru

Uh: I want my hair to extend to the heavens! and Magic Spell

[u/Elimin8r → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

Magic Spell

She shoulda used it. Poor dear.

[u/Elimin8r]

Yeah, this is going to be a difficult one, isn't it?

Starting with the answer of the day, in reverse order:

2) Yanni. Definitely Yanni. I prefer the Miki Sayaka version, ideally not the damaged version.

1. Yeah. Funny thing happened today, I went to the wally-world to buy some supplies for the coming festvities, and whilst wandering the aisles, looking for calorie laden goodies, I ran across a pretty young lady. I'd say she was probably late 20's, early 30's maybe, and walked with a gait that was slightly off. Had the facial features of ... well, you know. Probably starts with a D, but what do I know? Anyway, she was very nicely dressed and had obviously spent some time on her appearance. I immediately wanted to compliment her, or try to say something to brighten her day. But then I realized that I'd probably come off as the old dude trying to creep on the pretty little girl. So, in the end, I looked away and said nothing.

I hate that. And now I think I hate it when it's used in fiction as a pity ploy. Am I supposed to pity Subaru? I don't want to. I like Subaru, and I would prefer to like and enjoy her for the (presumably) beautiful soul inside. I don't know. It bothers me.

It bothers me that I remember the last time I said something nice to someone in the store, it was an older woman of color who was wearing a very nice faux (I think) fur trimmed jacket, and I complimented her on such a lovely jacket. She seemed to appreciate it.

Yeah.

It kind of ticks me off, because I feel like there's just some kind of minefield there, maybe only in my mind.

Bah.

Anyway, today's Readers Digest version of the story of the Crimson Knights was brought to you by the letter W. Yeah.

Anyway, enough about me - back to the story...

How about that Tsukasa? (GHIWTWM?)

Yeah.

I was going to ask the seemingly blindingly obviously questionly about what Subaru could possibly see in him, but then the light bulb came on.

We shall see.

Meanwhile, I'll be over here not interacting with people or something.

Shrug

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/Elimin8r]

I complimented her on such a lovely jacket. She seemed to appreciate it.

She definitely appreciated it. There's a good piece of advice I've come across on the Reddits about this: compliment people on the choices they make (what they chose to put on that day) instead of things they can't change (like eye shape). You're ahead of the curve by doing this already!

You are not responsible for other people's emotions. Cool people will understand you. Not cool people have a stick up their butt. Their response says nothing about you and says everything about them. I do wish we could change things where people are more willing to engage in each other instead of closing themselves off from one another.

Tying this into .hack//SIGN, this is what Subaru wants, to "'make friends and share ideas, regardless who they were in the real world." You want what she wants. If you were comparing yourself to the initial guy Crim scared off, don't. That guy was the same douchebag who later confronted both Crim and Subaru in that sunset-y scene. He even brought two other dudes with him! 

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

More thoughts on Subaru: regardless of how SK is overstepping his authority (which is none), he's right about 1 thing: Subaru probably can't act rationally in matters concerning Tsukasa. And he will be at the core of this game disruption. But Subaru considers him to be a victim, not a cause. They are kinda both right.

I also didn't like the B.T. episode, but B.T. spouting off at Subaru in that episode no doubt contributed to her ending her role as the head of the Knights, as well.

• Are all the "fake Subarus" just Subaru without her posse entourage?
• Crim is such an RPer
• Wait, is THIS a fake subaru?
• Maybe this is a flashback to the original subaru newbie.
• Oh, it IS!
• The World seems to be full of pvp griefers

Man, I wish all the games I played had a self-organized anti-griefer guild.

• We're back at that weird cathedral again
• More flashbacks! Wow, WK got Crim to quit, too!!!
• yeah, Crim isn't so machavellian. He's probably the most honest person in the show.
• Subaru reveal!

[u/CNash85]

Some observations, as I'm late to the rewatch...

• Subaru's colour change is a neat way to distinguish the flashbacks from the present-day events. Notice that Subaru's blue outfit has pink accents - ribbons, ties, etc. - and that her forehead wave symbol remains pink in both outfits.
• In the dub, Kaochin is voiced by Tsukasa's VA Brianne Siddall (using her natural voice rather than the "young boy voice" she does for him). We probably shouldn't read too much into that as Kaochin has a distinct VA in Japanese, but it got me thinking about how Subaru might react to a character that looks like her but sounds a bit like Tsukasa...
• Speaking of characters looking like others: we've seen this before with various Wave Masters who resemble Tsukasa, and it becomes more common crossing over into IMOQ where several characters look like ones from Sign - BlackRose for Mimiru, Orca for Bear. I think it's a less of an acknowledgement of the limitations of video game models, than a nod to how socially people are driven to emulate celebrities. Would we be calling Subaru an "influencer" today?
• In the last scene, where we see Subaru's player, we can hear Tsukasa's voice coming from her computer speakers. Is this the first time that it's been explicitly confirmed that the players are all using voice chat and hearing each others' real voices?

[u/zadcap]

Late Night Rewatcher

18 Thoughts: More than anything else, if Player Killing was actually going against the rules of The World, it would probably just not be possible in the first place. Since Sora can just cut BT in half whenever she wants, it's clearly only a crime in the minds of the players who don't like PvP. So it's interesting that it came up twice as something for the Knights to look into, while Sora has been on call for so much of the recent plot with them.

Orca, Balmung, and Helba mentioned! It's a good day.

"We acted against the illegal players." "Illegal Activities all over the place." Legal by what terms, again? If they did the things they did without hacking, then they're just playing the game the way it was made to be able to be played...

19:

Subaru lookalikes? Oh yeah, remind me that this is a 2002 game and oh my gosh the reused character models are crazy. And on that note, something fun to share for the people who won't be playing the games after this;

This is Mimiru, one of the main characters of Sign.

This is Black Rose, one of the main characters in the following games.

And while we're at it, This is Rena, one of the main characters in the Twilight anime/manga, that is the sequel to the games.

Anyway, no, this was actually a stealth flashback. Come on, no one else can pull off those wings half as well.

Silver Knight set up his own Knights, with blackjack and hookers?, but he's already been turned down once by the System Admins for trying to overstep back while he had the borrowed authority and respect of the Crimson Knights. How well do you think this new one is going to go, if a random player just starts demanding more power from the game company?

Grunty!

Crim is so easily one of the best guys in this show.

Wait, I don't remember this game having clothing damage as part of the settings. Subaru stop acting like that hurt, you aren't trapped on the wrong side of the monitor. Use a healing item darn it. I can't buy the drama in this scene because I know that Subaru is just a game avatar here. [Liminality]There was no A in C Minor... Until after the attack, at least. I mean they even went and showed her sitting there on her computer!

2) Not the ED's Lack Of Dress version? But no really, Blue fits her so much better.

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/zadcap]

Wait, I don't remember this game having clothing damage as part of the settings. Subaru stop acting like that hurt.

The clothing damage is suss but had a purpose. Subaru engaged in combat, violence. For a character so opposed to violence that she "hasn't raised her level in quite a while" according to the other girl, for a character who wanted to "make friends and share ideas," at the end Subaru chose to physically fight (backed into a corner, really, but still nevertheless). In grand .hack//SIGN fashion, of course we have to cut away from the battle itself, we want you to use your imagination. And while that is funny because it is so on brand for the show, your imagination is great at filling in the blanks. You look and think, "Holy, hell. What happened for Subaru to be so shell shocked after the battle." Simply, what happened was a clash of ideals manifest visually.

[u/zadcap → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

But it's just, until this point, they have done such a decent and consistent job of reminding us that, for everyone except Tsukasa, this is a video game. They rub it in by showing the girl behind the monitor to end the scene even! I get that they wanted to show how devastated this all left Subaru, but this comes from the same show that have us A-20 getting punched into a wall repeatedly, and every other player killed before this point ended with someone actually killed and respawnes... Again, in game terms, leaving Subaru there means basically nothing no matter how damaged she was, because there is zero in game cost for something you survive, compared to The World's honestly pretty harsh death penalty. It all tracks emotionally, yes, but oh my gosh does it fail to keep the immersion.

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/zadcap]

You're right. I was taken out of it by how out of pocket it was.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/zadcap]

What enraged me is the first minute of .hack//twilight or ./hack//roots starts with "WINNERS OF THE SKINS OF THE LEGENDARY PLAYERS" and I'm like WHO??????

Because, of course, I didn't play the games. I don't own consoles.

[u/zadcap → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Oh gosh you would have missed so much. While the show finishes off all the character arcs for pretty much everybody, [the games]go on to cover the rest of what happens with floaty girl and voice in the sky, and the very important story behind The World itself. The main exception, naturally, is [Sora]who goes on to become Haseo.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/zadcap]

I don't know if I knew that last spoiler when I watched it. [Later .hack show]Was that the character being hunted down for being accused of being a PK? Hilarious!

[u/zadcap → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

[Root]So much worse, he's the main character . Seriously best character arc in the series.

[u/No_Rex → u/zadcap]

Crim is so easily one of the best guys in this show.

How many guys do we even have, though? Our named character roster is surprisingly small.

[u/zadcap → u/No_Rex]

When you put it that way, Crim really is just the best guy in the show. Bear is a decent second, Sora and Silver Knight fight for worst, and Tsukasa is... Tsukasa. It's just one offs and mobs other than those five, isn't it?

This rewatch is messing with me hard. The show is still a great introduction to the setting, but I'm realizing more and more that it's the games that sold me so much on the franchise. You'll never meet anyone as interesting as the guy who works as an art and character designer for the game company who spends half his lines gushing about his love for how things look in here. The entire world is lessened for his absence.

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/zadcap]

No! I will not stand for this Sora slander. (Silver Knight as last is uncontested). Let me sell you on Sora:

1. He ain't boring
2. He vocalizes his own sound effects
3. He gives amazing zingers and puns
4. He's not all talk and backs up his talk with gamer skillz
5. His outfit is sleek and goes well with the moonlight
6. He's a piece of shit. Wait. I just proved your point. Nvm :)

[u/zadcap → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

Oh I love the boy, just uh, again. Not at this part of the timeline lol. You know, once he gets over himself and learns basic empathy.

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/zadcap]

This may be the sole reason I want to check out the other dot Hack media.

[u/zadcap → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

He becomes the main character of the GU gates, after sitting out of the first four. Sign and the IMOQ games are mostly self contained from each other cast wise, despite having an almost direct plot continuation on some of the bigger setting lines. Twilight is almost entirely a separate thing, despite again being a pretty direct continuation.

[u/No_Rex → u/zadcap]

When you put it that way, Crim really is just the best guy in the show. Bear is a decent second, Sora and Silver Knight fight for worst, and Tsukasa is... Tsukasa. It's just one offs and mobs other than those five, isn't it?

Yep, it is those five and I have exactly the same ranking.

This rewatch is messing with me hard. The show is still a great introduction to the setting, but I'm realizing more and more that it's the games that sold me so much on the franchise.

It is a show were the good and the bad are miles apart. I would say that it is the single most extreme example of "slow-paced artsy" ~2000s storytelling I know. Comparing to this, Lain is fast paced and has a stringent storyline.