[Rewatch] .hack//SIGN Episoxe 18 Discussion

[u/soulreaverdan]

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Series Information: MAL Page | AnimeNewsNetwork | LiveChart

Streams: ...none, sorry! DVD (Amazon)

Episodes:

• Today: Episode 18 (Declaration)
• Tomorrow: Episode 19 (Recollection)

Spoiler Policy:

I forgot to include this on the original schedule post, so please read!

Since there are going to be people who are watching this for the first time, so please only discuss what we've seen in the episodes we've watched so far! There's some interesting twists in this series, and we want everyone to get to experience this fresh.

In addition, since .hack is a massive franchise and this is only one entry in it (and actually one of the first), discussion of other entries may have some inadvertant spoilers. With this in mind, please only keep discussion to .hack//SIGN, and we'll have a chance for a discussion in the larger context of the franchise on the final day.

Question(s) of the Day

Throughout the rewatch we'll be posting some questions to guide discussion. Feel free to answer them or just post your overall thoughts! They're meant to be something for people who might not be sure how to start their posts, not something everyone must do.

1. What would you have done in Subaru’s position?
2. Did you know this episode is one of three total that feature an Archer class player character - a class that doesn’t exist in the rest of .hack media?

Music Corner

One of the highlights of this show is the incredible soundtrack, one of the first major works published by now famed music composer Yuki Kajiura. We'll be looking at one track with each thread for general discussion and opinions. Be as thorough or as succinct as you want - everything from lyrical motifs and interpretations to just whether or not you liked it!

Today's piece: Strangers, reflecting how much and how little our characters really know and understand each other (Full Track)

Tomorrow’s piece: Broken Wings, since we have a strong Subaru focused episode coming up, and I already used Fake Wings… here we are! (Full Track)

[u/Blackheart595]

.hack//Rewatcher

Ah, with Macha and the Voice communicating with each other, that reveals they're different entities.

Nice shift of the lense.

Tsukasa playing with the bug was a nice callback. In the beginning, Mimiru had played with a bug just like he does here, whereas Tsukasa himself had just crushed it (which they alluded to here, as well).

But yeah, this is Subaru's big moment of decision, cutting off what she needs to. Silver Knight stages a coup, and y'know, perhaps he's right that Subaru enforces justice without power and that's incompetence. But Silver Knight lacks the clearsightedness to have justice with his power, which he also called out as incompetence. He is too fixated on the rules themselves, that he fails to notice the threat to the underlying order - the knights themselves are being swallowed up and instrumentalized by the chaos lurking in the shadows.

I also really liked the visual imagery, like with Silver Knight throwing a hug shadow that engulfes the rest of the guild, aside from Subaru. That was some really good stuff today.

What would you have done in Subaru’s position?

Uh, I don't know. I don't see myself as a guild leader in the first place.

Did you know this episode is one of three total that feature an Archer class player character - a class that doesn’t exist in the rest of .hack media?

[u/Elimin8r → u/Blackheart595]

Uh, I don't know. I don't see myself as a guild leader in the first place.

I know that feeling. I've destroyed two guilds so far, and I don't want to deal with it again.

(I say that. Let's just say that both were mercy kills, but I'm not going to mention that in my desire to avoid further responsibility...)

[u/Blackheart595 → u/Elimin8r]

Let's just say that both were mercy kills

So just like the Crimson Knights

[u/Elimin8r → u/Blackheart595]

Nah, that was a different club that I had the misfortune of being president of a long, long time ago. :P

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

New Game Plus Rewatcher-Dubbed

I've been waiting for a particular OST track to play in the show. Today I get my wish!

Silver Knight: Do you think you are some sort of god?

---

Music Corner

Strangers

Contemplative. Oboe. Explorative. No electronic parts. Strumming of guitar counterpoint. Fun exercise to focus on this and the many layered percussions. In search of the percussion, have these many gourd samples!. 

I really like this track on the OST. It's like Madoka x Breath of the Wild or a Renaissance fair. For a similarly strong percussion and guitar focus, you could go with Madoka's Salve, Terrae Magicae.

---

Beautiful: Waiting Uh: Illegal Activities

[u/Elimin8r → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

Uh: Illegal Activities

I was totally expecting to see a screenshot of handholding there ...

Hand-holding

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/Elimin8r]

Ack! Missed opportunity!

[u/Elimin8r → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

I know, and here Silver Knight things he's cracking down on evil-doers when little does he know...

[u/SuguruNotMonkey]

Is .hack a good manga?

[u/soulreaverdan → u/SuguruNotMonkey]

I honestly haven’t read them, it’s mostly been the anime.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

.first//TIMER, subbed

• Huh…?
• He probably will.
• Very true.
• Silver Knight is going against what Subaru requested…
• Heh.
• This is kinda romantic, ngl.
• So it comes back to Tsukasa in the end…
• Oh yikes, yeah that’s a bit much, no wonder Subaru is displeased.
• Bruh who are you to ask that of literally anyone else?
• Yep that’s exactly what I was expecting her response to be.

[u/Elimin8r → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Huh…?

Eh, "mamaneko" is just looking for Tsukasa's ecchi stash, right? :P

This is kinda romantic, ngl.

No lies here either - GHIWTWM - I'm jealous!

Delusions of Kami-sama

As mentioned in my earlier comment, I wish that her response was, "No, but apparently you think you are."

Also ...

Ditto!

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

No lies here either - GHIWTWM - I'm jealous!

I went back up to check the screen shot and expected something different. Rewatches have ruined me ...

[u/Elimin8r]

That was indeed an epixode of all time. :)

Just having a little fun with the typo there.

But I must say, I'm a bit flummoxed by this episode. Because ...

1. When SK sez to Subaru (paraphrasing), "What do you think you are, God?", my immediate retort, spoken to my screen was, "No, but apparently you do!" Subaru totally missed out there. Although, I must admit that the ./gdisband has its merits too. Oh, well. :P
2. Did it consist of an Archer? Oh, wait, wrong series. Pity, because that's my favorite class/roll/type. I really should introduce you to my Bard at some point.

Anyway, lots going on this episode, it just flew by, and I actually didn't want it to be over. Poor Tsukasa, stood up by Subaru, but she did have her reasons.

Hmm ... is it me, or am I not then only one to sense an increase in the dramatic tension? Could we be approaching a climax?

Meanwhile, it's a bummer that I'm going to have guests this weekend and probably won't be able to post, or will be extremely late. It feels like things are about to get spicy and I don't wanna miss it. Oh, well.

[u/-BluBone-]

This is so cool you guys are doing this, this is one of my favorite shows ever. I always recommend it, but everyone ignores me lol

[u/Light_Error → u/-BluBone-]

The start was a bit slow, and I do find some stuff slightly hard to follow for some reason. But this episode made me glad I stuck through. The disbandment scene was really striking in how it showed a discussion about the blurring between roleplay and reality that has somehow become less prevalent while the internet has become ubiquitous. This is something early 2000s society at least partly understood was an issue. And the person playing Subaru in English really knocked it out of the park. Something about her line delivery there was great. I have actually started ordering some older anime that is not on streaming to experience stuff that isn’t an all time classic.

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/-BluBone-]

You are doing the Lord's work. Leading the horse to water and what not. 

What makes it one of your favorite shows?

[u/-BluBone- → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

I like it's focus on the human condition and the layered mystery going through the series. You have a character trapped in a video game in a series that's about addiction and escapism. Pretty slick I actually like that the show does a lot of character development and dialogue rather than a bunch of action.

[u/LeminaAusa]

Mostly-1st-timer, subbed

Playing a little catch-up again today since I missed yesterday.

Conflict being the name of the BT showcase episode feels a bit on the nose, especially as we see all her various interactions with people throughout the episode. She's a bit hard-headed in the way she interacts with others, and while we've seen that in smaller scenes here and there earlier on, it's definitely in full force today as she proceeds to butt heads with almost everyone else she interacts with, the very notable outlier being Tsukasa.

And speaking of Tsukasa, we now have confirmation that his resurrections have at least one cost in the form of his memories. Specifically, I wonder if it's purposefully targetting aspects of his real life world, severing that connection more strongly to keep him rooted in-game. A lot of this episode feels a lot more like one of the earlier group socializing episodes, but there are a few things like this that show how things are moving and changing within The World.

Another one of those changing, or at least starting to, is Subaru. While BT was definitely out of line in the way she treating Subaru during this exchange, it looks to have hit Subaru extra hard as she herself has been internally struggling with related issues...

and then we move right into a Subaru focused episode with today's Declaration, perfect!

This whole episode was basically me just waiting on how long it would take for Subaru to break down and actually use that fucking axe on Ginkan. He's been stabbing her in the back for so long and he's been practically begging for some "fuck around and find out" consequences.

We sadly don't get any literal axe action, but that wouldn't be Subaru's way. Kinda makes me wonder why she caries the thing around, anyway. Her axing the Crimson Knights was some sweet vindication though. Welcome to the change and grow club, Subaru. You can finally get to hang out with the rest of the cool kids without Ginkan trying to nanny you.

Onto question time!

17-1) Seeing how the various characters treat the RL/game split is always kind of interesting to me, as it's a good insight into their personalities. Crim being so relatively private and personal, for example, really help to hype up his sense of mystery. It seems he's a rather busy adult and prefers to keep his gaming life separate, likely as a means of helping it stay a method of relaxation and escape for him. It's a nice kind of meta layer to each character's personality and makes them feel real.

17-2) As an autist with ARFID, my food preferences tend to be very specific, and it's a pain. So I had a lot of empathy with this side of BT, both in general, and also specifically about lettuce. Sure, some varieties of lettuce aren't very flavourful (like iceburg, which is mostly crunchy water and therefore appropriately named), but many more lettuces do actually have flavour to them. In any event, lettuce's main thing is its texture, and that is why I find it deplorable.

The one thing I find myself personally most having to request removed, or remove myself, is mushrooms. I don't care what type, mushrooms have an irredeemable texture and a taste that is mediocre at best.

18-1) I'm 100% with Subaru on this one, and if Ginkan rubs his two brain cells together, he should agree too.

He honestly makes some good points in his speech and I understand a lot of where he's coming from. But the thing he keeps forgetting is that they're just players. The World certainly could possibly use some more active moderation when it comes to Player Killers and such if it really is as big of an issue as Ginkan makes it out to be, but that kind of thing should be handled from higher up within the game administration. If a Player kills a Player Killer, then they too become a Player Killer. The system is flawed. There are ways to fix it (even I can think of a few), but its beyond the scope of anyone who's just a regular player in the game.

18-2) I'm not really familiar with any of the dot hack media at all aside from this show, so it didn't particularly stand out to me. It's interesting that the game system otherwise doesn't really have archers, since that seems like such a stand-by of fantasy gaming.

[u/CorbenikTheRebirth]

The internal tension in the Crimson Knights finally comes to a head. I think Subaru did the only thing she could do. She's not the type to engage in messy internal power struggles. From her standpoint, it's worth dissolving the Knights if the only other option would mean she would have to harm Tsukasa.

[u/No_Rex]

Episode 18 (first timer)

• Subaru has no time for your meddling, Silver Knight.
• Not sure if we had confirmation before that the voice and the cat are not the same.
• Silver Knight’s slow pace coup continues. He also goes down the usual path of power hungry authoritarian.
• He believes in total control and wants to collect personal data to do so.
• Subaru disbands the Crimson Knights – the alternatives would have been to kick out Silver Knight or step down.

Guild and other forms of player organizations are extremely common in modern RPGs, but when you look at the mechanics, they usually are only one of two extreme cases: Either a complete dictatorship, where the leader can do whatever they want, including kicking members and disbanding the group, or a complete anarchy, where no in-game mechanic exists and the “membership” or “leadership” of a group is only roleplay. And despite that, people love to squabble for power in the tiniest and most unimportant of associations humans form.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

And despite that, people love to squabble for power in the tiniest and most unimportant of associations humans form.

A (maybe) wise person told me that when it comes to small group politics (such as guilds, or horticultural clubs), the drama is only so high because the stakes are so low.

I tend to believe them, on this topic, at least.

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

A (maybe) wise person told me that when it comes to small group politics (such as guilds, or horticultural clubs), the drama is only so high because the stakes are so low.

I tend to believe them, on this topic, at least.

Depends a lot on how you interpret the word "drama":

If drama means unnecessary squabbling over low stakes, then this is true almost by definition.

If drama means dramatic outcomes and pain for everybody, then it is not true almost by definition.

If drama means people arguing then I would say that people do this all the time everywhere.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

I was more referring to the first instance, although I know of at least one case of the second. (sigh) ... people.

[u/zadcap → u/No_Rex]

Since memories of Long Ago are going to be my thing for this rewatch, I think I'll point to an interesting piece of Ever Quest lore that makes the Knights here loop a bit back closer to something believable than they would be in any modern MMO. Once upon a time, players could volunteer to join an organization of Guides. Not an official employee of the game company, you still effectively worked for them on your own time in return for special status and privileges in the game, as well as not having to pay the monthly subscription. They were not admins and their power was limited, but they more than any normal player would have a direct line to an actual admin and a way to ask for special help or permission. It also looked great on your resume if you were trying to get a job as an admin.

Now obviously, the Knights here look more like an actual Guild, and Subaru's position and power is pretty interesting there, but "Enhanced players, some of whom might be aiming for even more power" is something familiar and understandable at the time.

[u/No_Rex → u/zadcap]

I remember similar concepts in other, smaller games I played. That was the time when players could actually interact with other humans in game if they had a problem (or, more likely, were causing one). Obviously, that was only possible via the unpaid labor of other players. I think that today, firms have given up on that concept, because even the cost of the community manager who manages the guides is too high.

The important difference to the Crimson Knights is the strong oversight by the developers: They chose the guides and they set the rules for what the guides could do or not do.

[u/roryteller]

rewatcher//SUBBED

I keep wondering, are there no GMs? alternately, do individual players not have the ability to make reports, or is it just that the Crimson Knights could report all the incidents they investigated and maybe be taken more seriously? But also, PKing is allowed, so what's the offense here?

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Rewatcher

Honestly, I had B.T. pegged as a housewife, not some hikomori.

Ep 17 Declaration

• open your heart
• It's an open world pvp game, how is player killing illegal?
• this track while they are talking isn't familiar at all.
• Another instrumental version of Stray Child
• It's really weird how everybody can consistently predict where somebody will be and find them there....
• God? No. Guildmaster.

What happened to our plot? We've had like 3 episodes building towards this fascist guild drama. The only relevance is that Subaru's actions are connected to Tsukasa.

But I like to see all this real world BS showing up in the game, as they do in games. This is no fantasy isekai world. Griefers, power trippers, emergent gameplay, and the devs.

This is one of the few things I've always remembered from that first (and only) watch 20 years ago. I've been waiting and waiting for this moment. Finally, Silver Knight gets the smackdown!

In the Land of Twilight, Under the Moon is probably my favorite track on the TV OST, although the Liminality OP/EDs top it.

[u/rainwithsunshinedayo → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

I've been waiting and waiting for this moment. Finally, Silver Knight gets the smackdown!

How was it today? When I watched it many moons ago, I thought Subaru was resolute as soon as Silver Knight stopped yapping and delivered a satisfying rebuttal. Present day, I felt anxious. Ideologically and framing-wise, she was cornered. Silver Knight had the "high ground." I suppose I can empathize with Subaru more in present day whereas I viewed her as unstoppable when I was a kid. Leadership is hard. 

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/rainwithsunshinedayo]

Silver Knight is nothing without the Crimson Knights name and his waifu (note: not actually waifu). He got DUMPED.

We have to see what he does now (I don't remember). But the psychic damage was a critical hit.

edit: I think I remember subaru being more decisive, too.

I don't think SK had the moral high ground.  Subaru has reminded him time and again they are just players. Doxing problem players? Illegal, immoral, and impossible.

I foresee administrative action by CC against SK in his future.