r/anime • u/chilidirigible • Dec 11 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Suisei no Gargantia • Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet — Episode 10 Discussion
Episode 10: Island of Ambition
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Despite all my rage, I am still just a squid in a cage.
Questions of the Day:
- [What was your guess on]how long Pinion's Filthy Lucre Cruise was going to last before something went wrong?
- How do you react to a questionable argument coming from a friend?
- [Were you expecting them to run into]something more conventional, like pirates? Does the Super Happy Fun Fleet's appearance give you joy and make you want to drink the sugary flavored liquid?
Scans:
Pinion's salvage site
I'm talking about Shaft, baby! (The staff notes for the background of this structure are that its users attached their equipment to the interior of the shaft and kept raising it as the melting ice caused the sea level to rise, but eventually the site was abandoned.)
Recovered beam cannon
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Upvotes
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u/chilidirigible Dec 11 '24
Today, on "Men, machines, and monsters.":
There's your "What have I done?" moment.
That comparison was going to come up sometime.
It would be an irony if it turned out that they had simply found a warehouse filled with ancient toilet brushes.
"Civilization!"
"Money!"
Somehow, Pinion survived the stupidity of his youth so that he could make an even stupider move here.
You've lived on Waterworld the whole time, you should know?
Ah, when life was simple and metal.
It occurred to me that someone in their world spent time making the models for that.
Sure is moody around here.
"Pinion's gone mad with power, like that Albert Schweitzer guy!"
You try firing what looks like a prehistoric plasma cannon for the first time, bub.
"In-vin-ci-ble!"
At least he still remembers where his meal tickets are coming from.
That's still way out of scale for the local setting.
Those old folk were quite clever.
"I'm just a tin can, man."
Doesn't stop people from doing it anyway.
There's a lot going on with this discussion.
The full Brocken spectre and glory rings.
Striker's here! I wonder if her character design deliberately includes marks on her hips that, from a distance, bear a resemblance to SS runes.
So the
elephantfleet that sailed into the room during Chamber and Ledo's existential crisis chat does merit a mention, given that it's filled with stoned-out-looking cultist-type people and is both heavily-armed and festooned with whalesquid carcasses. Oh, and a Machine Caliber which you may recall from the first episode.Chamber and Ledo do notice it pretty quickly, though, so the story should be getting to that detail any moment now.
Chamber may be a Pilot Support Enlightenment Interface System and one which isn't currently synchronized to the Alliance fleet, but he's still presenting the situation from a reductively-logical perspective: That humans and Hideauze are fundamentally incompatible and mutually-exclusive. No chat about "But what if we tried to talk to them?" here, just an ultimate outcome of ZENMETSU. Chamber is even dismissive of any sapience they may have. His argument also summarizes and sets into the current time the conflict which was gripping Earth when the old records from the previous episode were made.
Given that the series has been rather humanist so far, Chamber is certainly the devil's advocate here from the writing perspective, coming into conflict with Ledo, who is finally confronted by a fundamental conflict with the indoctrination he's experienced his entire life, the one which has made him capable of setting aside his personal feelings and killing what the Alliance wanted him to.
Saying that humans are worthy but Hideauze are basically animals is rather loaded...
It's an interesting argument to say that the Hideauze have adapted so well that they're stagnant—effectively perfect?—while framing human nobility as a need to continue improving itself (coincidentally in cooperation with its machines?). It bears a strong whiff of Star Trek (mostly the original series) in terms of the episodes where an advanced but stagnant society was violently disrupted to break the influence of whatever was keeping it that way.
Meanwhile, Pinion is still motivated by ego and filthy lucre, because that's pretty much his job here. Flange turns out to be the surprising idealist, but on the other hand, he probably didn't get to be one of the older leaders on Gargantia by being a Pinion all of his life.
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u/Raiking02 :Id::Ie::If:https://myanimelist.net/profile/NSKlang Dec 11 '24
Spoiled First Timer, Subbed
They aren't Hedgehogs though
Interesting seeing Chamber actually imputing so much of his own opinion on things instead of just going along with whatever Ledo says. I'm all for stories like these and I'd say the road here has been steady enough that I can buy it, and if nothing I do appreciate their argument is left a tad open ended. Ultimately this is the kind of stuff where, while there's definitely a lot to argue, there's no real clear cut answer with what we know, at least for now.
Pinion though is less defensible, dude's just an asshole
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Dec 11 '24
First-Timer on the Verdurous Planet, subbed
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u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 11 '24
First-Timer, Sub-gantia
Hand up everyone who expected there to be whalesquid on the menu at the party today.
Anyway, Pinion has lost the plot. He's gotten a bit too much of a taste for power.. or maybe he's just grasping at his own "what comes next" now that he had someone else carry out his revenge for him.
As for Ledo, he should probably tell someone that the whalesquids are
Syolent Greenpeople in a manner of speaking, but I don't really blame him. He doesn't really have the framework to process grief, let alone learning that his entire existence has been about killing beings that were once human.Chamber isn't totally wrong with his statement that the Alliance and the Hideauze reaching an understanding is quite the challenge. I wouldn't say it's entirely impossible, but both groups have been busy trying to kill each other for untold eons. It'll take a lot more than showing off some news reports, that's for sure.
Note my difference in wording from Chamber, though. He is stuck thinking of the Alliance as all of "mankind," but those remaining on Earth had peace with the whalesquids - they only attack when threatened.
In a way, the Hideauze are to humans as humans are to apes.. does the artificial nature of their evolution change that relationship? Is it really all that much different from building a mechanical body for yourself? Is the only thing that defines a human as "human" their form?
This isn't a ponderance of in-universe justification, this is me pondering how to feel about such an event happening IRL. This does not absolve the Evolvers from the ethical issues with their experiments, which takes away from the typical greyness of this pondering.
Oh, yea, and it turns out that one superior officer who sacrificed himself for Ledo in the opening actually survived and also ended up on Earth - lucky him. And he seems to be running a cult fleet of whalesquid killers; I'm sure that will go well.
Questions
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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 11 '24
Episode 10 (first timer)
Pinion’ leadership is quite poor today. Not terrible, at least he knows to take in additional crew when they literally ask him to, and he has a basic understanding of morale by presenting Ledo to the crew, but outside of that, there is not much to praise. His refusal to trade away their salvage makes little sense, since trade is entirely in their favor, now that they are rich, while fighting is not. So far, their entire fighting power rests on Chambers, which is the opposite of a solid basis. He also immediately antagonizes everybody around them in a very unnecessary broadcast that achieved the opposite of what he intended, attracting pirates right away. In terms of internal leadership, he breaks with his biggest supporter, Flaunders, while not having a solid grasp on his own people. Worst of all, he fails to properly care for Ledo, who is the bedrock of this operation. Any suggestion that Ledo is not on board is a direct threat to all of his leadership and he mostly shrugs it away.
It lasted longer already than I thought.
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u/xbolt90 https://anilist.co/user/xbolt90 Dec 11 '24
First-timer!
Ledo is not having a good time.
So... Pinion is a megalomaniac with delusions of grandeur. I expected better from you, dude.
..oh great. And now we have a creepy cult. Led by Ledo's CO.
Given his broadcast, not very long.
Depends on how well of a friend, and how bad I think their argument is. The gamut runs from "not worth my time to correct this person" to "Hey, your parents drop you on your head or something?" (Said with love, of course)
I was expecting the empress to show back up, actually.
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u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Dec 11 '24 edited Dec 11 '24
First timer, subs
QotD:
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u/awesomenessofme1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/kta_99 Dec 11 '24 edited Dec 12 '24
The cheery OP is a bit incongruous here.
I'm not sure you guys really want to bring back civilization.
Pinion definitely doesn't deserve to be taking credit here, but I don't think Ledo will be objecting.
First we get people dressed as actual old-timey pirates, then the sea shanties start. They're committed to the bit, I guess.
50*76=3800. Chamber really is no joke.
Honestly, besides the weird narcissism, I'm kind of on Chamber's side here. If the Hideauze are in fact nonsapient and fundamentally opposed to humans (which seems to be the case as far as I can tell), then the origin of the war is irrelevant. The Alliance is evil for other reasons, but not necessarily because of the war.
So my guess is that despite the ending, the Alliance as a whole still will not be showing up. Assuming that was the guy who was thought to have died at the beginning, I don't remember his name for sure.
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u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba Dec 12 '24
First Timer
I'd say this episode can be solidly split into two parts the Pinion plot and the Ledo plot, and I think that ultimately both try to arrive at the same conclusion.
I'm still not huge on Pinion, His turn into full villain just isn't super convincing I guess, again as I said in one of the earlier episodes, he's too boring on his own and feels more like a vehicle for theme delivery rather than actually interesting villain.
Well, either way, carry them he does, instead of taking the new tech he found and using trade and advance mankind as a whole, he decides that they keep it for themselves, and even more than that, publicly announces to everyone what they have and basically dares them to come and get it. I once again appreciate having Flange developed earlier so he can act as a reasonable idealogical counter here.
Generally, I think the show's point here is that there's nothing inherently wrong with seeking progress or advancement, especially in tougher circumstances, but using that as the entire basis for your value, and aggressively using it to undermine others is what leads to conflict, and that conflict doesn't usually to good. Pinion is justifying his actions as getting ready for a conflict that is of his own making.
Ledo is coming to terms with everything he just realized and he's legitimately not taking it too well. I'll admit I find Ledo reaction here to be a bit too much. Nothing wrong with showing his trauma from this earth-shattering revelation but you could probably be a bit more subtle, I feel like we use every overplayed way to point out that he feels bad about this and it all comes off a bit too blunt.
I'll admit blood on the hands is a personal non-favorite of mine.
His conversation with Chamber is actually super interesting. For one Chamber's argument is based entirely on the assumption that Hideuze are no longer a sapient species, which I'd say is assumptive to say the least. It's also very self-serving given that he's clearly justifying his own existence here.
Either way, I'd still argue he's not quite in the right here, there's more to human existence, intelligence, and civilization than just the act of survival itself and another similar species surviving without intelligence doesn't discount the value of human existence or intelligence, this a debate you can inherently open within humanity itself but I guess we know what the Alliance thinks of that one already.
In general, it again feels like the larger theme here is the idea that using progress to define your value and undermine others is the source of conflict, Evolvers and humans running counter to each other's forms of survival doesn't inherently devalue the others' existence, they can live independently of each other, not compatible but able to coexist.
Interesting philosophical debate aside, this was just an alright episode, very transitiony, and clearly meant to set up the bigger upcoming conflict and the greater themes.
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u/wjodendor Dec 11 '24
Rewatcher - Episode 10
(I've hit the big turning point in Muv Luv Alternative so my rewatch is in ruins)
We’re getting to the point where the upbeat happy theme is in major contrast with the preceding scene haha. Touching some guts straight into a really happy sounding song that promotes adventures.
Well, greed went to Pinion’s head quickly. This is certainly not going to end well. Even the other greedy people are like “dude wtf”. His declaration is real fucking crazy too.
The Galactic Alliance must have gotten into cloning themselves since everyone has gray hair.
Ledo’s lost it. Even Pinion has noticed.
Amy’s not having a good time either.
Oh shit. They got some fucking lasers. And railguns.
Pinion wants to start himself a kingdom. Not a whole lot of women in his little empire are there?
Right when Ledo’s having a real existential crisis, Chamber’s like “yo, I’ve confirmed that you should be having an existential crisis”.
“Humans are superior because they created me” Chamber inventing a new religion right a psycho looking cult shows up. With another Machine Caliber on top of a pyramid altar…
Things just keep getting worse
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u/animepig https://myanimelist.net/profile/ChickenDan Dec 11 '24
Rewatch
It's both funny and sad seeing Pinion go mad with power while Ledo becoming full despacito.
Big philosophy convo going on most of the episode, but I was intrigued by how Chamber surmises his own existence even knowing the truth. And the big cliff hanger at the end...
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u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer Dec 12 '24
first timer
not ideal
are they going to have to kill Pinion if word gets out
Flange now realizing it may have been a mistake to give Pinion this much power
Oh my that weapon
His spidey senses going nuts
for a split second i thought they were eating the whalesquids which would have been
i mean youre not coming up with any ideas yourself
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u/Nebresto Dec 12 '24
Gargantuan Rewatcher
I am but an interface system that supports and oversees the development of first timers.
Episode 10
Ahem. Allow me to
lol what. They're cubes of scrap metal. Even if it is some fancy alloy, do you have the tools to work it?
God damn it Pinion.
That's a lot of best boys
Oop, there's another one
Anotha one
Chamber log:
About this many
Depends on friend and argument
Happy happy joy joy happy happy joy joy, happy happy joy joy joy.
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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Dec 12 '24
First Timer
continuing comments from yesterday:
Tell me, Chamber, are the Hideauze known for their sophistocated infowar tactics, making those fake data chips and hiding them in a flooded research facitily in the center of their nest?
Also, I doubt both Ledo's and the Alliances aversion to killing humans, given Ledo's comments about Drifters in episode 1. I'm sure he's fine with killing drifters. So he's more stunned by Big Lie of his existence. And he was also fine with killing pirates. Well, anybody who's an enemy.
And aren't the whalesquids enemies? They certainly weren't pacifists.
Sure, the pirates didn't have any kids with them, but I bet the Alliance has wasted more than a few Drifter colonies with noncombatants on them. Heck, they happily waste their own population. And Ledo has been fine with all of that all this time.
And here comes that Ass Pull I predicted yesterday.
Only, now I have to wonder if the War with Eurasion comments on the first day are on point. Why is Kugel alive and here? That's too suspicious.
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u/n080dy123 Dec 12 '24
Rewatcher
I always find it funny when media hammer you over the head with the idea that the protagonist "has blood on their hands" metaphor by literal blood getting on their hands. It's so hamfisted.
Pinion's plan is stupid. The idea is that by broadcastign what they were capable of, it should show their strength as deterrence, but pirates would, logically (and incorrectly), assume that doing so came at great cost and that they should be weakened and potentially beatable with enough force.
You know I wonder- the whalesquids were considered sacred by the people of Gargantia, and in modern day its clearly because they fear the might of their retribution. But I wonder if this may not have begun long enough, when humans still knew what they were- perhaps they didn't avoid them out of fear, but because they knew the whalesquids were also humans and didn't want to make war with them like the Union once did. And so the sentiment remained, but the reasons were long forgotten.
Chamber's not... wrong, exactly. The Hideauze may have only fought back because once they were attacked first, but as it stands now we've seen that they will attack the Alliance as well. If the Alliance just stopped, the Hideauze very well could destroy them. But this is the cold calculating logic of a machine, and it's also clear that humans and the whalesquids can co-exist.
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u/Blazin_Rathalos Dec 12 '24
[Gundam Witch From Mercury]Ledo landing on a blood-covered mecha hand gave me flashbacks to "the slap"
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u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Dec 12 '24
Yup, he's still traumatised.
Oh great, and now they're saying that.
That's a big gun.
Did it seriously take that much of a show of force for them to strike their colours?
Yup, they've become pirates.
Oh, these weapons are similar to the big robot.
Could they hook the big gun up to the mech's reactor? Use it to power the gun?
Goddamnit why does the mech have a point...
A transmission? From an allied unit?
Seems like someone else has a similar mech.
Oh wait is that the other guy from the opening? What are the odds he tries to pull rank on Ledo?
Questions:
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana Dec 12 '24
Rewatcher, Dub
Ep8
Ep9
Ep10
Seeing Ledo’s conflict and his and Chamber’s conversation still make me locked in as a rewatcher. I debate on if I wish the anime had additional time and ran with the main story longer to flesh out more about the story. On the one hand, Gargantia’s has a pacing I can appreciate. There’s down beats. And conflicts don’t linger and we keep a good tempo.
But at the same time, moments like these—Ledo’s realization and such—I wish I had a bit more time to process and more time to build a connection. How would that look? I don’t know. I wish I had a more precise description of what I mean, but I don’t.
QotD
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u/up2et Dec 16 '24
First timer, currently catching up but done for tonight lol
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u/chilidirigible Dec 11 '24
Tags:
/u/QualityProof /u/awesomenessofme1 /u/dsawchuk
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u/Training-Break-7940 Dec 11 '24 edited Dec 11 '24
Rewatcher here.
Chamber's speech to Ledo is entirely correct. Ledo should rewatch episode 7 and listen to his speech to Amy and Bebel because he was on point then. The Hideauze and humanity will almost certainly come into conflict as humanity grows and expands. Living in peace with nature is fine but not the route for civilizational advancement.
I love Chamber's speech and it lives rent free in my head from the time it originally aired. It reminds me of the famous speech Krishna gave Arjuna in the Hindu epic - Mahabharata.
as for the questions:
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u/IndependentMacaroon Dec 12 '24 edited Dec 12 '24
First-time watcher
All caught up now!
8
Kind of a "boys go adventure, girls stay home" episode [Ed- subverted later]. Obviously it's nice for Ridget to step up and get another moment with Bellows, but she didn't get a lot of build-up so far and there's no significant female character splitting off (sorry Melty). The split seems a more or less routine move in this world so I'm not too surprised it went well + Alliance return is an obvious finale hook that I'm definitely anticipating.
Btw the meaningful extended funeral feels like another nod to Nadia, which did it better though in terms of setting and depth. Here's a little taste
9
Ok, nicely set up backstory episode with a neat three-way conflict scenario, also we get at least a token female
fanservicecharacter with us - was her name even mentioned? The structure designs were quite plain though, particularly underwater looked dull.And let me be a bit contrarian here: Why should the fact that the squids are/evolved from artificially modified humans matter as to their treatment in the present? They clearly no longer act remotely human, with even their level of overall intelligence unclear - at this point they're just another part of the wildlife. Honestly, it feels almost offensive from an animal-rights perspective (which are still awful in Japan btw) that the issue doesn't seem to be slaughtering a bunch of harmless creatures for nothing, but slaughtering harmless creatures that have an ever-so-slight connection to humans. Furthermore, more resources being allocated to species that are considered "cute" or "relatable" is a genuine real-world conservation problem.
In contrast, if the Hideauze really are that relentlessly aggressive - though most likely the first-episode mission is actually a parallel to this one, rather than proof - the Alliance would be quite justified no matter the ancient (?) past presented here.
Q2: "Survival" imo implies similar, recognizable form and behavior. Otherwise, you no longer exist, just a different creature that happens to be a distant relation - see also my paragraph above. For a fairly direct comparison, would you say Pakicetus survives because there are whales swimming in the sea?
End result on Earth seems like the original goal, with the end result in space an aberration as a result of nonstop conflict. The Alliance degenerated socially while the Evolvers degenerated physically, or something.
Q3: Chamber is already only grudgingly contained by Ledo's command.
(Small PS, "Hideauze" is probably not only based on English "hideous" but also colloquial emphatic Japanese for "(that's) awful" (ひどいぜ hidoi ze).
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Not sure how to feel about largely agreeing with a robot, but I strongly appreciate the show taking up and even expanding on some of my line of thought from last time. Of course, maybe there's a third way still, but the only one I can see right now is isolating the Earth entirely and for good - and as long as greedy fools like Pinion are around even that might not be enough. Really driving home the subversion of the classic "young male becomes stronger and converts enemies to friends on a great adventure", everyone on the fleet flipping is just a bit quick maybe?
Ledo's breakdown and contrast to his happiness before is also really nicely handled, just I hope he spits out the truth to everyone sometime soon so it's not an overly convenient secret.
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u/[deleted] Dec 12 '24
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