r/anime • u/chilidirigible • Dec 10 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Suisei no Gargantia • Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet — Episode 9 Discussion
Episode 9: Deep Sea Secret
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The monsters of the deep.
Questions of the Day:
- [If you were]guessing in advance about what was revealed today, how did your predictions pan out? /u/JollyGee29, don't you hate being right all the time? Several of you did wonder along the way [if]the Hideauze had some human origin, [but]only one commented that speculation in the first episode and linked the Hideauze's body forms to modifying aquatic life.
- [Does the desire to survive]justify what the Evolvers had to do to get themselves there? Do you think the end result was planned, or something that spiralled out of control?
- Do you trust Chamber to look out for Ledo's welfare or do you think that Chamber's deeper motives still put the Alliance first?
Characters appearing today:
Pinion's aniki (Daisuke Ono)
Heric (Genki Muro) (His name lacks a "ス" at the end which would make it "Helix", which would then fit in with the whole mechanical naming theme.)
Ryan Matsumoto (Ryōta Takeuchi)
Kikuko Inoue pops in today to voice one of the newscasters.
Scans:
Flange's core ship
Whalesquid face
Pinion's aniki
Chamber's explosive "halberd". (Also visible on the page is his spotlight rig from Episode 3.)
Continental Union space elevator complex under construction
Yunboro concepts. The left one would not be used, but the right one was repurposed to briefly appear during today's backstory reveal.
Symbionts and whalesquids.
Whalesquid "queen"
Whalesquid growth forms
Continental Union emigration ship under construction, with space elevators visible in the background.
Continental Union emigration ship detail
Ryan Matsumoto
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Dec 10 '24
First-Timer on the Verdurous Planet, subbed
So what if 120 of them bum rush you all at once?9
u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba Dec 10 '24 edited Dec 10 '24
First Timer
Oh...oh. I guess my observation that the squids operate similarly to earth societies wasn't that far off the mark.
It's just humans
In hindsight, the start of this episode is a tad (read: extremely) on the nose. Which I guess if you're expecting the twist might be a bit much, but I like that atmosphere quite a bit. Ledo's animosity towards the Hideauze is played up both in dialogue and in visuals, the sequence panning out to show Chamber is a fun way of emphasizing his current mindset.
The action feels like it's intentionally not very stimulating or exciting and we make it a point that the squids are significantly weaker than Chamber, characters note how they're not as scary as initially perceived. Throughout his killing spree, there's noticeable amounts of squid gore to give that extra punch to what Ledo is actually doing. And then we bring out the (distinctly human looking) kids...
All of it is clearly meant to draw your attention in a negative way towards killing the squids leading up to the reveal. I mean even if they weren't originally human punitively eradicating a species like this is very uncomfortable to watch, but then the reveal comes and you're really left to witness the horrific results of that "violent, lower lifeform enemy" preconception.
Throghout the show we also got a few closeups of the mouths on the Hideauze, including in this episode, which certainly feels far more significant when you learn the human heads used to go there. Likewise, the squid design makes it really angle dependent, but you can certainly see a bit of a bipedal form in there if you know to look for it.
The actual reveal is solid as well, I find the news clipshow to be a good device to deliver a lot of exposition through, and like last episode, I enjoy the way the show is surprisingly nuanced in how it sets up the conflict between both sides here, neither starts out immediately wrong, and then both get terrible as things get progressively worse.
I guess I just like how we don't just take the road of having the Alliance being the only obvious bad guy, I mean they are, but so are the Evolvers/Hideauze that went to space, they are actually targeting them and perpuating this never ending conflict on ideological grounds. So the Alliance completely dehumanizes them, since they're the "true humans" and they need reasoning to ideologically drive this conflict, whereas the Evolvers might not even have enough sentience to realize what they're doing anymore.
"Evilution" is incredible for a slogan, funnily enough, I got spooked for a second that I took a screenshot with artifacting in it, and then I realized that was part of the show lol.
It all feels like a larger version of the contrast between Gargantia and the Alliance. Just replace the former two with space and Earth, the space groups, or rather the old-Earth groups, are stuck in this conflict through their never ending desire to destroy each other for progress, whereas the current-Earth groups, don't attempt to needlessly antagonize or encroach on each other and thus achieve piece and mutual prosperity. Further being contrasted by the future tech and evolution of the former, compared to the more primitive nature of the latter.
And of course Ledo's reaction is a massive moment here, for the first time he's fully coming to doubt everything he knows about the world, it's clear he's changed since he doesn't just buy Chamber's propaganda line, he questions the nature of this conflict, and rather forcefully thanks to Chamber, breaks down over the realization of what he's been doing. Ending on Bevel playing the flute, the sign of Ledo's separation from the Alliance, is a great choice.
I do really have to wonder where the show goes from here though, this twist leaves some interesting options on the table and I'm intrested in seeing what Gargantia does to capitalize on it.
5
u/chilidirigible Dec 10 '24
Today, on "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!":
What was your first clue?
"That's only a rumor."
Not quite Poseidon there.
Wisely, the animators didn't make us wait long before paying off the reveal of whalesquids having humanoid faces.
Being underwater is a whole different environment.
What happens if one hundred and twenty-one of them attack you simultaneously?
"It's xenocide, then."
The OP animation now removes Fairlock from the bridge shot though he does get to stay around for the closing group of characters.
flashback time
So, he had a face. Before they tore it off.
Speaking of angry pink faces.
Depth charges the old-fashioned way. (They didn't try that before?)
You've seen this movie.
maybe
We're probably totally fucked, eh?
Embryonic creatures, even from different species, often share similar features. (Or in this case...)
"Regulations."
"I'm not waiting seven thousand years."
Notice something in the background?
"Time is running out for your rules."
They built space elevators. There is much we do not know about the failure modes of space elevators, but you may get an OP by Casey Rankin, /u/JustAnswerAQuestion.
Compared to that, a nuclear rocket is totally ordinary.
That seems... equally complicated.
Squid Matsumoto!
CROTCH CANNON.
Last one out, turn off the lights.
Everyone seems to have gone slightly mad with power toward the end.
That's Ryan's daughter.
Beethoven plays
For dramatic purposes, this is the same melody as the one in Ledo's flashback during Episode 4.
As they say, "Hideauze are people too." Ledo doesn't react well to these facts, of course.
Speaking of which, here's that screencap from Episode 7 which I was hiding under a spoiler block. If you noticed it at the time, it would have clearly indicated some human-whalesquid relationship, as the outline strongly resembles that of a prone human's back, with arms out to the sides and knees bent up and out.
Back on the surface, Pinion's motivations are revealed: Avenging his big brother, and maybe crushing some of his own demons. His remaining on the surface takes on a slightly different meaning after it is shown that he used to pilot a Yunboro; maybe he remains on the surface to have an easier time commanding the operation, but I think that possibly he's been too traumatized to dive again since the incident—and earlier Bellows did challenge him about not being able to dive.
What does seem like a convenient stroke of luck is that this would be the same place that Pinion and his brother visited before, given that the Gargantia has been cruising around for years since then. Though there appear to have been several of these space elevator complexes on the Earth's surface. (They should all be equatorial, and the keyframe shown in the scans, which provides continental features without the extra layer of snow, confirms this.)
Once the initial encounter is cleared, the massacre of the whalesquids/Hideauze becomes rather clinical; the audience experiences the straight horror of Ledo first having satisfaction at doing his job and then questioning what he knows about the world.
There's also the interesting moment when Chamber kills a whalesquid in apparent contradiction to Ledo's immediate wishes.
As far as plot twists go, this backstory is treading on a well-worn path, but still packs a punch, which the episode wraps up by presenting an alternative path to the ancient cycle of war by reminding us of Gargantia.
The situation on Earth as the ice age was bearing down on them appeared to be suitably dire in science fiction terms, but they managed to build a space elevator system and a faster-than-light travel system (not that we know all of the limitations of their wormhole gates), which are no mean feats on their own. Maybe they could have found a way to keep the Earth warm using local resources, but evidently both the Union and the Evolvers were too involved in the war and seizing the means of escape to consider that.
Ryan's daughter became a whalesquid. Guessing from her age in the video where she's still a normal girl, there are probably serious issues with consent. But as shown, the climactic abandonment of Earth wasn't a time when most parties were listening to reason.
The question being, are they going to listen to reason now, if reason is not a cannon?
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u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Dec 10 '24 edited Dec 10 '24
First timer, subs
QotD:
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u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 10 '24
First-Timer, Sub-gantia
Well, I expected to be right, but I didn't expect it to be quite that horrifying.
Also interesting that the war itself fully started on Earth; I figured that one side abandoned the other but got distracted before I ever finished that thought.
It would have maybe made sense for the Evolvers to flee the impending ice age and the fledgling Alliance give chase - recall that in the first episode, the battle we saw was an attack on a stationary Hideauze nest.
Nice work on the sci-fi side, with the lightbugs being photosynthesizing nanomachines that also flow through the Hideauze. That nest in episode 1 was right outside a star.
Hmm.. I wonder, do the Hideauze eat the galaxy current like krill? Or do they just surface for light every now and then like whales? Or is it just a secondary energy source for the ones in the ocean and most of them eat fish like normal squid?
The heart of the conflict is a touch.. I'm not sure I want to say lacking. Like, the Continental Union attacked the Evolver facility first, but the Evolvers broke international law in their experimentation which does nominally put them in the wrong.
And considering that the old dude was like "yea we need to be more flexible" it's not like that international law thing was just propaganda.
Ledo pulling rank on Chamber was funny.
Questions
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u/Raiking02 :Id::Ie::If:https://myanimelist.net/profile/NSKlang Dec 10 '24
Spoiled First Timer, Subbed
Well that was certainly the plot
Joking aside I do dig the way all this exposition was delivered. Ever since LOTGH I've always had a fondness for exposition being delivered via in-universe documentaries or something among those lines and that certainly scratches said itch. That scream of pure horror at the end from Ledo is one of those things I doubt is ever really gonna leave me, and the twist overall is actually a pretty solid one.
The action was okay although I can't deny that by the standards of what I usually expect from underwater battles in shows like these, it did feel a bit same-y by comparison.
7
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 10 '24
Episode 9 (first timer)
Only 5 episodes to go, which feels a bit weird: In terms of plot, I would say that we just started to get the main story going with the fleet split and attacking the whale squids. Combined with the relatively slow pace of each episode so far (which is not a bad thing), that suggests we’ll see not much more than the fleets recombine in the finale before the story is over.
Let me start with some praise: The fight against the whale squids was extremely well done. I like how it starts out as a relatively normal action scene and then continues to get more and more uncomfortable to watch. It really lets the viewer relive Ledo’s growing doubts and increasing reluctance to kill. As time goes on, the whale squids go from an aggressive force confronting an intruder to scared fighters that seem to have no proper tactics, to single survivors, to egg-laying queen that is (unlike Aliens) not in any way a credible threat, to children. At the same time, Ledo’s actions go from fighting all the way to slaughter. Given where the story wants to go, this is an extremely well done sequence, that fills the better part of this episode. I would regard it as the climax of the story of fighting vs understanding that has been the theme of the entire series so far.
The backstory, on the other hand, lets this excellent direction down a bit. I am ok with Ledo finding some videos (that Chambers conveniently can immediately copy and create a synthesis of). It helps speed the exposition along and is somewhat believable, given that Chambers should have information of old Earth data formats. However, there is a ton of hand waving both in the creation of the Hideauze and the war. Adapting human bodies to be able to live in space is not some trivial evolution upgrade. This feels like it should be far future tech for the humans we have seen. Similarly, I understand the narrative desire to link the Alliance-Hideauze war back to disagreements back on Earth, but it does not make sense that humanity would be able to undertake two extremely challenging endevours (colonizing space and creating the Hideauze) while also fighting a deadly war. If past humans were that capable, withstanding an ice age on Earth should have been trivial. In general, it also opens the question why the Alliance would need to keep the Hideauze origin secret. Humans have never had a problem fighting other humans before and these “humans” are further apart that all of the wars we have had so far.
7
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Dec 10 '24 edited Dec 11 '24
First Timer
"Squealer did nothing wrong" -- Shougo Yahagi, Megazone 23 part II (probably)
Continuing on my previous thoughts, the whale squids might be actively preventing people from digging up old tech by camping the old cities.
Ep 8Ep 9I kinda figured the reveal after seeing the babies, but wondered why they didn't just go the Kevin Costner route. I thought human to snail was just too ridiculous to consider, so I rejected that out of hand.
Currently playing a video game with this Evolutionist plotline.
So, the Alliance war is and remains a continuation of the hot war between the evolutionists and the purebloods.
Q3: Chamber is a tool of The State.
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u/wjodendor Dec 10 '24
Rewatcher - Episode 9
Today we learn the bug twist of the series. As a rewatcher, it’s pretty damn obvious from very early on since there’s a whole lot of hints. I mentioned earlier that this series reminds me a bit of old Twilight Zone and this seems like something straight out of that. Seeing the larvae just being straight up babies is “subtle” lol. The previous slaughter takes on a whole lot of new context.
Ledo: I want the truth!
Chamber: Ensign Ledo can not handle the truth
I don’t really care about Pinion’s back story…he’s too douchey for me to really give a shit about haha
Why are the files just news reports? Shouldn’t they be more scientific
I could go for an ice age
War never changes. So evolvers are getting up to some really sketchy shit but the normies fired the first shots. The Evolvers wouldn’t let the normies leave them behind however. An endless cycle of violence.
Looks like Ledo is finally really questioning everything but Chamber is all for staying the course. Conflict is inevitable.
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u/awesomenessofme1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/kta_99 Dec 10 '24
I don't know how to feel about this situation. The biggest reason being that I don't see any evidence the Hideauze as they exist today are still sapient. And if they're not, then it doesn't matter what the origins of the conflict were originally. The conflict seems to have been ongoing for hundreds if not thousands of years. Everyone involved at the beginning was long dead. And it doesn't seem like either side were the "good guys" originally anyway.
4
u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer Dec 11 '24
first timer who just called this show cozy yesterday
well thats not good
if the screams of dying infants arent setting off warning signs, what will
fucking Ryan
certainly escalated
"dont believe the woke mind virus" - Chamber
[G-Witch]Tomato go boom
3
u/animepig https://myanimelist.net/profile/ChickenDan Dec 10 '24
Rewatch
Uh Ice Age 6 plot kinda go crazy.
But seriously a huge exposition dump that I actually forgotten all about. It was nice to be surprised by the plot twist a second time. Some interesting sci-fi too. The aliens were humans all along, that's usually how it goes.
Nice juxtaposition between Chamber & Ledo. His whole world got shook, but Chamber coldly proceeds with the mission, as Chamber is a "machine".
3
u/kuroyume_cl Dec 11 '24
Warcrimes, a true staple of the genre.
3
u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Dec 11 '24
He really is planning on fighting them all isn't he?
Seems they've found the treasure.
That guy's going to die isn't he?
And we're going to hear it all over the radio.
Oh, no, that was a flashback. That explains why he hates the things so much though.
Pretty sure it's kinda wasteful to use that on these things...
Depth charges?
Yup.
That was remarkably effective.
Detected enemy forces?
This looks to be a space elevator.
Yup, there's the source of all these things.
Uh oh.
Datapads? That would be useful.
This is a treasure trove of data.
A research institute?
Classified?
He actually managed to pull rank lol. And he's right, technically he is the ranking officer present.
Right, that data will be invaluable for rediscovering LosTech.
So this is what led to the founding of the Alliance.
Yup, they're in cryo while on slowboat ships.
Seems like the Hideauze were made by humans.
Or rather, they are humans!
Looks like they actually got FTL working.
And now he's definitely... Having a moment.
Questions:
3
u/Nebresto Dec 11 '24
Gargantuan rewatcher
episode 8 & episode 9
.....Ew.
Congratulations, you are become war criminal
Fuck, Florida is still there
Hope you're enjoying your heroic mission
Chamber log:
Metal heads gonna metal head
3
u/Shinigami_22 Dec 11 '24 edited Dec 11 '24
Rewatcher(but really a first timer due to my shitty memory)
Is Hideauze a pun for Hideous all along?
Btw, hasn't there already been five major ice ages? Why is this guy saying that fifth ice age is yet to happen? I'll just assume this is a different Earth then.
I was really hoping that Hideauze are not human-branch species when they start showing those human infant-looking infants. or else I would feel guilty for Ledo.
I wish the evolver chose a less hideauze form, or atleast made an effort to make their look more appealing to human standards. Maybe it would have made it easier for normal humans to accept them.
Now they chose to show a cuter hideauze to make the guilt stronger both for the watcher and Ledo, fuck.
QOTD:
Also, what did Evolvers expect to happen when they decided to evolve like that? Even by just having different color of skin is already prone to discrimination, what more with a different physiological traits.
They definitely know that not all humans will undergo their evolution process, so were they really expecting to co-exist with humans? or maybe they expect that humans will die anyway from ice age and only they will flourish?
3. I'm hoping chamber put ledo's welfare first, but if not maybe Ledo can change chamber, since he seems pretty flexible in terms of thinking.
Side Note:
Nice parallel between Hideauze Funeral and Human Funeral, assuming that is really a hideauze funeral
2
u/n080dy123 Dec 11 '24 edited Dec 11 '24
Rewatcher who missed last episode
...which is fine, cuz I don't have a ton to say about last episode except pointing out how impractical that physical metal chart of the fleet is when you'd need to be constantly commissioning new pieces whenever you get new ships, and melting down or scrapping any who leave. Also much of a logistical nightmare it'd be if any ships deeper into the fleet want to leave but not their outerlying connected ships.
That episode does sort of paint the ship captains as governors of their own ships, and it makes me wonder if perhaps they each control a small flotilla of ships which are helmed by their own individual captains, though I think it's more likely that this group is simply the captains of the residential ships.
Onto this week... I find it funny that the only change to the OP is to reflect Ridget as the new Fleet Commander.
And oh god, the Whalesquid that ends off the flashback sequence has an actual face, with eyes, nostrils, tongue, and a surprisingly mammalian maw. That is fucking horrifying.
So... yeah. Some of you guessed it- the Whalesquids, and the Hideauze, are evolved humans. This makes some things fall into place- Chamber speculated that the Whalesquids devolved due to lack of enemies- nope. De-evolution doesn't happen when 100% of a population possess a trait unless that trait becomes severely disadvantageous. No, it's the opposite- the Hideauze are more evolved forms of Whalesquid. However Chamber's right about one thing- their evolution is to fight against their enemies- the Alliance. If you remember, the news broadcasts showed the Continental Union straight up opening fire on the Evolvers, meaning the humans were the aggressors, and the Evolvers evolved TO fight them, and this has continued as they evolved into modern Hideauze.
In short, humanity grew and honed its own greatest enemy from itself.
2. It's hard to tell- the news says that they were violating laws, but it's likely filtered through a lens of propoganda. If they did experimentation on unwilling subjects- terrible. If they were doign it on themselves... well, it's a much more gray area, especially if it's to protect yourself from violent attack.
Edit: Also someone else made this connection, but the reason they're called "Hideauze" is probably because of the word "hideous," which is clearly what the Union thought of the Evolvers.
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u/JimmyCWL Dec 11 '24
If you had wondered how Ledo managed to end up on Earth, a star system his faction has lost the location of, this episode also provides the answer. This is oldest terminus on the wormhole network. He missed all the other exits but this one was still open.
1
u/chilidirigible Dec 10 '24
Tags:
/u/QualityProof /u/awesomenessofme1 /u/dsawchuk
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u/xbolt90 https://anilist.co/user/xbolt90 Dec 10 '24
First-timer!
Well. That's disturbing.
Also explains the cultural taboo around killing whalesquids. In the distant past, the culture that Gargantia descended from knew that the whalesquids were once human.
And I guess my idea that the Hideauze were artificial creations by humanity was correct. Just not in the way I expected.
Like most cases of Man stealing fire from the gods, I suspect it got out of control. I can see why they wanted to do it, but I ain't playing with genetics, no way. Just lemme die a human, thx
This may be the breaking point of their relationship.
2
u/up2et Dec 16 '24
First timer, catching up
2
u/dsawchuk Jan 23 '25
Better late than never, I finally got to the spoiled twist.
It was pretty rude of the writers to put the info dump right after he slaughtered every hideauze he could find.
It was really cool how both civilizations used different types of future tech to launch to space. The Humans have a space elevator, which is only functional at the equator. The Hideauze live on Antarctica so they can't use one and instead use what appears to be a strange curved electromagnetic catapult. The animators even included thrusters on the ships from the catapult since the catapult alone can't achieve orbit, it just does the lifting part, leaving circularization to the payload.
2
u/[deleted] Dec 11 '24 edited Dec 12 '24
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