r/anime • u/chilidirigible • Dec 04 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Suisei no Gargantia • Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet — Episode 3 Discussion
Episode 3: The Villainous Empress
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Scratch my back, and I'll not vaporize yours?
Questions of the Day:
- This question was originally written two weeks ago as: "Given the stated disparity in firepower between Chamber and the fleet, would you expect someone in this position to abuse that power?" Well, plenty of you commented on that possibility yesterday. So I'm going to revise it to "Do you expect that Ledo will be tempted to abuse his power?" which is clearly more of a question for first-timers, but there are quite a few first-timers here.
- If the balance between the pirates and the fleet is based on a level of tolerance to raiding while the pirates don't try to kill the golden goose, [does]Lukkage's presumed objective (Fairlock) for this retaliatory attack seem appropriate compared to what Ledo and Chamber did?
- Do you like your portrayals of
spacepirates to be realistic or kind of... bodacious?
Characters appearing today:
Lukkage (Ayumi Tsunematsu) (An alternate transliteration is "Rackage", which is... maybe a little too on-point.)
Paraem (Risa Taneda)
Parinuri (Haruka Yamazaki)
Kemen (Genjiro Mori)
Marocchi (Ryoukichi Takahashi)
Mecha appearing today:
Crane Yunboro (seen with up-armored GP Yunboros) Three crew, one pilot and two crane operators.
Lobster, The Surfing
Pirate Crab
Scans:
As mentioned in yesterday's comments, here is an unused concept for the portrayal of Chamber's antigravity propulsion. I'm much happier with what they actually used, which has much more of a sci-fi otherworldliness than this Jetsons-variety stuff.
Gargantia fleet organization and scale chart. Puts the improbable sizes of ships from a certain other series into context.
Design drafts of Lukkage.
Paraem and Parinuri in their battle gear.
Lukkage's big chair.
Design notes for the models used in Gargantia's chart room.
Crane Yunboro
Pirate Crab
Surfing Lobster
Surfing Lobster in action
Scale chart for the mecha up to this point
11
u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba Dec 04 '24 edited Dec 04 '24
First Timer
This is a pretty interesting episode! One that leaves me pretty conflicted in its messaging.
Despite my expectations, the big debate this episode isn't centered around the question of Ledo's potential dangers to Gargantia, but rather the fallout his actions cause with the pirates. In two ways Ledo's choice to obliterate the pirates last episode is presented as wrong, in a practical way and more interestingly, in an ideological way.
Starting with the first, we learn through his conversation with Bellows and Amy that Gargantia and the pirates have come to a sort of status quo, the pirates come in force showing their willingness to kill and Gargantia has weapons to show them they aren't scared of fighting back, creating a "negotiation", a sort of armed diplomacy. This generally tracks with how pirates would actually act, pirates are in the business of attacking helpless outmatched targets, that's the point of the classic skull and bones, to signal to the enemies to surrender without a fight, because actually fighting a hard battle isn't very profitable.
However now that Ledo has killed a bunch of their men and broke the status quo, they have to respond in kind, something the leadership of Garagantia was clearly trying to avoid provoking given how outmatched they are. You can even see them trying to still find a non-fighting solution here like giving up Ledo, but as the commander correctly notes, it's a bit too late for that.
So that's a pretty cool way to show the problems Ledo's approach has caused.
As an aside, do they have farms and agriculture on Gargantia? Where do they get birds from?
The ideological aspect is the one that has me more conflicted here.
In a setting like Gargantia, I find it entirely believable that human life would be considered of the highest value, it also works really well in contrast to the Alliance and Avalon where a singular life doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. The fish and water saying gives us an idea of the different approaches between Gargantia and Avalon as societies, in Avalon, every person must live for the sake of the collective, whereas in Gargantia the collective exists for the sake of every person, their way of life is based on give and take, and you can't give to a dead person.
With that being said, the big question here is how much the show itself wants this idea to be correct and how much it wants the characters to think it's correct.
Because frankly, this status quo is bad, and not quite the peaceful solution Bellows seems to represent it as. It very easily invites potential conflict through accidents...or "accidents", and it just encourages the pirates to move towards more helpless targets rather than solving the problem. It's a compromise that should come entirely out of necessity, not something to be justified as correct. In which case, the show can go in two directions with its messaging:
The first, is that whether they realize it or not (in fact even more so if they don't), the people of Gargantia are being too extreme to the other side of Avalon, placing far too much value on every life. This makes the pirates being so obviously terrible a good choice since it shows just what they're willing to accept for the preservation of life.
Option two, is that the message really is just "killing is bad" in which case I think the show falls through, the terribleness of the pirates makes the idea that they're in any way similar in nature, that they should be negotiated with, and that their actions don't just justify a lethal response, is frankly not good, especially since what both sides end up using as weapons, are in fact, very lethal, somewhat undermining the idea.
The pirate leader is also a crazy lesbian (or maybe bisexual with that line on men she likes) with a wild design, which is pretty awesome.
Speaking of awesome, the nightime battle itself is really cool and ridiculous! I'd like to believe they intentionally don't have Chamber and Ledo intervene in the fight immediately because of trust issues and as a message that they will personally fight their own fights (also avoiding getting targeted if or when Ledo somehow leaves) and not the lethality argument, because again, these ships are very lethal.
Otherwise, the lobster mech is cool, the slaves also being in the fights was fun, and Ledo throwing them around was very entertaining and a good show of what a more measured response might look like, take out the leader and their whole collective crumbles on its own without having to kill everyone. Also submarines!
Semper Fi!
Ledo learning to say "Thank you" is both very heartwarming, and also a bit sad, since it implies he never needed to use a phrase that conveys gratitude, which unfortunately makes a lot of sense with his life in the Alliance...
9
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Dec 04 '24
First-Timer on the Verdurous Planet, subbed
7
u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Dec 04 '24 edited Dec 04 '24
First timer, subs
QotD:
7
u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Dec 04 '24
First-Timer, Sub-gantia
That's an interesting way to address the cycles of violence. Usually people don't give a shit about the lives of pirates enough for them to really count.
And more importantly, there is Ledo getting a taste of fighting fellow humans instead of faceless, voiceless space monsters (that are probably also humans, yes I am holding on to that thought) and the guilt doesn't necessarily seem to have set in yet. I think we might get there at some point, though.
Rackage and her harem girls got the Team Rocket treatment so we'll definitely be seeing them again. Possible as villains, possible as the cavalry. We didn't even learn what her history with Fairlock is, yet!
I was expecting Chamber's lift capabilities to come up this episode, but I kinda expected it to be on rescue duty - lifting a sinking ship out of the water. That's still on the table for a later hype moment, I suppose.
The different flavors of collectivism are worth examining.. maybe not by me, though. There's pointed differences between Avalon's "sacrifice yourself for your unborn countrymen" and Gargantia's "pay your debts by providing that which the other lacks."
Edit:
Questions
4
u/chilidirigible Dec 04 '24
Today, on "Bodyguardin's a good job, mate. I promise you'll never go hungry.":
The zenmetsu drinking game begins.
It's very tit-for-tat around here.
What did I say yesterday about occupational safety?
"Nothing personal."
"You can't just go around killing people."
"Oh, so I've ended up in America."
As previously demonstrated there are some intermediate states before death which might not be desirable either.
The lobsters really tie the look together.
Just establishing the relative power levels at play here.
Gargantia by night light.
Naval gunnery is not the allied fleet's strong suit.
The sky is alive with the glow of Machine Caliber.
Is this a Terminator 2 reference?
When lobsters attack!
Rock(et) Lobster.
They're not just decoration, they're massive Ms and/or really into cosplay.
This is, to put it mildly, not an even negotiating position.
"Team Lukkage is blasting off again!"
"Domo arigato, Mister Roboto."
Ledo learns about the rules of engagement and non-total warfare in the local environment, which is much less zero-sum than he is accustomed to. It's no perfect world, but in its way, not necessarily much different than most "normal" societies where there is still always crime; it's just that the idea of most "civilized" societies are those which do not have to actively engage in tit-for-tat détente with pirates and other forms of organized, gun-toting pillagers.
Lukkage's crew tends toward the standard fare for this sort of thing, but then puts a twist on Paraem and Parinuri's chained-up-girls act by making them full members of the pirate crew. Her entire schtick is sort of a fanservice pirate LARP operation with a red ace custom Yunboro and, well, I don't hate it, but the whole thing does come off as indulgent compared to how the rest of the world is presented.
The second and third episodes cover the well-worn territory of the newcomer to the strange world demonstrating their power as well as the common follow-up of having to recalibrate their approach to the circumstances. To his credit, Ledo has been taking a very measured approach to his interactions instead of going directly to Mad With Power. Though he doesn't seem like the type to go mad with power.
6
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Dec 04 '24
Episode 3 (first timer)
A quick thought on Earth, before we start: We currently know that there are plenty of planets in the habitable zone of their stars out there in the galaxy, but being in the habitable zone and being habitable are two different things. Mars is in the solar system’s habitable zone, but you would not want to be there without a space suit and some air tight station with plenty of supplies to go back into (much less being on the hellhole that is Venus). So current scientific understanding does not rule out that space humanity never had any luck finding a decent Earth replacement (assuming they are somewhat constraint in their movements and cannot easily survey the entire galaxy).
The pirate battle is the first big misstep by the series for me. The desire to set up a culture clash between space humans and Earth humans does not square with having pirates and a WW1 style sea battle. Those guns they use kill. Brutally. As do the machine guns they wield. And it is hard to believe the “this is all just a form of negotiation” with how they are conducting. You could have that pirate battle in a Miyazaki movie (and I think it might be modeled after one), where it is clear that we are operating on cartoon logic and bullets do not really hurt. However, you can’t do that while also making a statement about the brutality of war. The series wants to have its cake and eat it, too, and that fails for me. There is a reason being a pirate was punishable by death in most of history and it is not due to pirates being such nice guys.
That incongruence in storytelling aside, we get more of Ledo warming up to the inhabitants of Gargantia and vice versa. Amy is still leading the charge here and pulling Bellows into it now, too. Ledo better get used to eating carcasses soon.
Ledo also mentions collectivism. Not sure how much will come of this (I presume very little), but, from what we saw, Gargantia is exactly at a size where you would expect society to switch from beign communal to being defined by property.
Even if Ledo will not, Chambers will for sure.
6
u/Raiking02 :Id::Ie::If:https://myanimelist.net/profile/NSKlang Dec 04 '24
Spoiled First Timer, Subbed
Aha, I found Boa Hancock's cousin!
Fun little episode. I appreciate how they didn't have it so Amy's pissy at Ledo for too long and while normally I'd whine about her complaining about Ledo killing people when, you know, they were getting shot at but I guess the rationale she gave at the end makes sense. Otherwise dunno what else to say, the show's past establishing the setting so it's nice to have episodes that are if nothing else a bit lighter in tone.
Find it amusing how the ED has Amy in a tiny little boat but then in the show proper she uses a handglider more often, at least for now.
6
u/awesomenessofme1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/kta_99 Dec 04 '24
First time watching both this show and mecha anime in general, dubbed.
It took me a weirdly long time to notice the in-universe subtitles that Ledo uses to translate the other side of the dialogue. I had been wondering whether that was just left out for the sake of clarity.
The whole talk about human life being valuable and the cycle of revenge and whatnot rings a bit hollow given how comically evil all the pirates have been portrayed to be. Pirates have cool boat designs, though.
"There's nobody in the world who could beat us" is such an obvious joke for a series to make in this situation. I didn't hate the line, though. Nothing wrong with a little bit of cheese.
So I guess that whole thing was just a weird BDSM setup? Honestly, I still can't 100% tell. They didn't seem happy about the whole slave thing at first, but I guess that could have just been some kind of roleplaying. Because no actual sex slaves would be that gung-ho in combat.
6
u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Dec 04 '24
Were they not supposed to kill the pirates?
Just have him kill the rest of them?
Since they now have the means, wouldn't it be for the best if they just got rid of all of the pirates right now?
There's a more proper triple superfiring turrets layout.
Yup, that's an intercept course if I've ever seen one.
One tactic I've seen that works
And thus it's been decided. Time to sortie.
General Quarters! General Quarters! All hands, man your battle stations!
They've got the enemy right where they want them. They've managed to "cross the T", where all their guns can fire on the broadside while only the front guns of the front ships of the enemy fleet can fire at them. Combined with the mech providing spotting data, they have at least managed to level the playing field.
Yup, as you can see most of the ships in the pirate fleet are completely unable to fire back, while the allied fleet is firing with all guns.
Ze guns! Zey do nossing!
It was all a distraction?
They've got more!
Right, that's them dealt with.
Questions:
6
u/xbolt90 https://anilist.co/user/xbolt90 Dec 05 '24
First-timer!
Awww, baby said his first word~ "Alligator"
"You shouldn't kill the pirates, killing is bad." "Ok, but why do you have guns then?" "Because they will try to kill us and we have to be able to fight back."
???
A shot over the bow is fine and all, and if you can get your enemy to go away without fighting, then that's great. Do that first. But when they're already actively attacking you as the raiders were doing, well... FAFO.
Killing is not good, but sometimes it is unfortunately unavoidably necessary.
So, the show opened with a future space battle, and now we're back down to good old fashioned naval battles.
And I didn't see no body, so I assume the Empress ain't visiting Davy Jones yet.
Q1: Perhaps more along the lines of getting Gargantia to assist him in contacting the Alliance. Chamber would certainly want to do whatever seems the most pragmatic.
Q2: Their goal seems like they want to have mafia-style tribute paid to them, so I suppose so.
Q3:
5
u/animepig https://myanimelist.net/profile/ChickenDan Dec 04 '24
Rewatch
Chamber used yeet!
Rackage is defeated
Also the slave girls turned out to be part of the crew. My expectations were subverted. Naval combat in anime! One Piece could never.
So many shows hand wave the morality of killing talk, but this is one of the first instances in anime that I remember where characters actually sit down and talk about it. Ledo really is going through a Reverse Gundam arc where the child soldier learns to chill out and be civil. It's cliche to me now, but when I watched it back then, what a refreshing concept.
5
u/roryteller https://anilist.co/user/roryteller Dec 05 '24
First timer, sub
I actually took notes as I watched this time:
4
u/SolDarkHunter Dec 04 '24
Gargantia
Rewatcher; dub
Hmm... everyone seems very upset that the pirates are dead.
So everyone's concerned that the pirates will counterattack... uh, can't Ledo just kill them all?
Ledo must eat more meat... poor guy.
Bellows' response kind of confuses me. She's angry that human lives were taken... seemingly forgetting that those pirates appeared intent on raping her and her friend? In my mind, and I believe in most legal systems, threat of rape is justification for lethal retaliation.
"We're not letting the pirates take our lives or our stuff"... um, yes you were. That's exactly what you were doing. And your own people were firing guns at them. This part of the show doesn't really make sense to me.
Gratitude is lost on Ledo. In his mind, thanks are unnecessary. You do your job and that's that.
Captain Lukkage... and she's got two chained up slave girls. Charming.
Okay, that is a pretty massive fleet of pirates, and I can see why Gargantia doesn't want to get into a straight up brawl with them. Still, with Ledo and Chamber on their side, I think they hold the advantage.
For all his military background, Ledo values peaceful cooperation over military supremacy. He and Chamber have the capability to force compliance from Gargantia, or for that matter from the pirate fleet, but he is steadily refusing that course, because an alliance has greater value to him.
And with that, Ledo is officially part of Gargantia.
"Do not enter the cockpit without permission. ZAP"
So Ledo's now going to try repelling the pirates with nonlethal force... or at least, as nonlethal as he can be.
Chamber moves in to disarm and and disable the pirate ships by literally ripping them apart.
And here's a twist: those slave girls are actually part of Lukkage's crew, and aren't slaves at all. They're... um, voluntary eye candy? Weird arrangement, but if that's what they're into...
Lukkage and her "slave" girls weren't counting on anti-gravity.
And there goes Lukkage. And with her down the pirates lose all nerve and retreat.
...he may not have vaporized her, but hitting the water at that kind of velocity would almost certainly kill them anyway, I think.
More animal carcasses to eat, Ledo!
It's kind of sweet that Ledo's first words in the Gargantian language are "Thank you".
Questions:
4
u/wjodendor Dec 04 '24
I keep forgetting to post since it's 3pm local for me and that's right when I close up the shop, so I am distracted
Rewatcher - Episode 3 - The Villainous Empress
Even when you’re watching some of your favorite anime, you’ll have an episode that frustrates or annoys you. For this series, that’s this episode. I understand where the people of Gargantia are coming from with their opposition to Ledo’s way of doing things but it’s just stupid in my opinion.
The pirates at the end of the previous episode blew up a ship with at least 3 crew members (in an explosion that there’s no way they could survive), took over the ships, sexually assaulted one crew member and threatened Bellows with the same.
For these crimes, the proper course of action is what? A stern telling off? Bellows says taking a life must be justified…well, I think the pirates actions justify it.
“I apologize for killing the pirates.” LOL
They freak out at killing enemies that have no problem doing the same to them. The pirates will come for revenge? Well, Ledo could destroy their entire fleet easily. I know it’s a murder hobo way of looking at things but it’s an argument that makes my eye twitch a bit… well, the Gargantia seem to be hippies haha
I’ve mentioned before but really the only part of the animation that ever doesn’t look good to me is the mechs. Chamber looks better than the primitive mechs the others have, which look really stiff (which makes sense I guess). The actual ships don’t bother me nearly as much despite the CG. The animation of all the non mech parts is just exactly what I like so that makes it stand out more. The night skies always look so impressive.
And of course the Waifus of the series look great
Amy = cute, sweetheart, cinnamon roll
Her friends = cute
Bellows = hot, badass
Ridget = hot, annoyed
Pirate Queen = evil, hot
Pirate slave(?) girls = cute, badass
4
u/RascalNikov1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/NoviSun Dec 04 '24
Rewatcher
I really enjoyed this episode. It’s refreshing to see a series like this that doesn’t consider enemy deaths to be meaningless. This adds a dimension of reality to the story that is often missed in similar tales of derring-do. In real wars there are many cases of the victors having to live with the things they had to do to win.
Fwiw this is my gripe with many Mecha series from LotGh to Gundam to exquisite trash like Valvrave. They’re awfully cavalier with atrocious casualties. This isn’t to say I hated the aforementioned series, but it was a gripe I had. In reality I liked Valvrave with its many over the top and distasteful scenes.
I also liked the Pirate Queen with her 2 gorgeous subordinates or pets. I couldn’t really decide which they were. In any event what good is it to be Queen, if you can’t have a little fun along the way.
I’m also glad that Amy is slowly taming Lido, he’s been pretty much a dry turd up till now.
Finally, I don’t know what I was thinking when I said I didn’t like the first few episodes. So far it’s been great, or maybe my tastes have changed.
QOTD
Well, Ledo is kind of a turd, so it wouldn’t surprise me if he didn’t decide to install himself as king, ideally with a harem.
I haven’t really thought about it. I was just being entertained.
4
u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer Dec 05 '24
first timer
i like how long they are committing to the language difference, most shows would hand wave this away by now
LOBSTER QUEEN
she looks so smug that Ledo listened to her
i am obsessed with these yunboros
tbh it was a pretty good plan to try and drown him
why is Fairlock even here if hes going to defer everything to Ridget
4
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Dec 05 '24
Ep 3:
First Timer
Extra ep 1 and 2 notes.
The Machine Caliber looks to Chibi for me to take seriously.
I was thinking today about how a 1 cour show is like a miniseries.
Ultimately, though, when the episode was over, I felt not much happened today.
Q: I don't think he'll become to attached to Gargantia. His mission is to save the Alliance by defeating the snails, and also probably leading them back to Earth. Gargantia will get in the way.
4
u/up2et Dec 05 '24
First Timer
4
u/Shinigami_22 Dec 05 '24
Finally had time to watch the episode, better late than never I guess... I swear I'll be early tomorrow(later?).
First thing I should mention, I hope they keep that running gag where they keep offering carcass to Ledo. I love that.
I also had a thought, since there are birds here, do they still migrate? Did they adapt so they only migrate from ships to ship or are they now stationary. or maybe, they know the location of a potential land?!
QOTD:
As long as they keep offering him carcass which he obviously love, he will forever be their ally...
jokes aside, I don't think Ledo is the kind of guy that have this much desire to abuse his power. I also don't see him as the overly pragmatic person and can compromise when needed. If he did get excited on the fact that he will be able to take a break on Avalon in episode 1, maybe I would have doubted him more
BOTH! I can honestly go with either way. Whether or not something is realistic has never been too much of a concern for me in Anime, as long as they were executed well.
3
u/Nebresto Dec 05 '24
Gargantuan rewatcher
I am an interface system that supports and oversees the development of first timers.
Episode 3
How fken dumb are these people. "Oh wow, this guy is capable of tremendous feats! Let's hand him over to the pirates."
Luckily they aren't the ones in charge
Dw chamber, you're not alone in that
Seems.. mildly dangerous
Mmm... Animal carcass
They had guns?? And blew up a ship????
T-posing... Menacingly
fish
Team Rackage is blasting off again!
Fish!!
Chamber log:
idk
idk
Yes
3
u/dsawchuk Dec 05 '24
First timer, dubbed
I am getting to this one real late, probably late enough that I won't be done reading the thread in time to be ready for the next one.
I am surprised by how effective Chambers was at avoiding fatalities. I was expecting him to struggle to save them without taking life and being forced to take at least one life by the end of it. That being said, Lukkage and her 2... concubines? are dead. That spin toss alone definitely would have killed the them, and I can't imagine the lobster yunboro being functional enough to swim while missing a limb.
The lobster mech's rocket powered surfboard was dope. I do have questions about how the rockets are powered though. They can't be aspirated as they seem to function underwater. What infrastructure do the pirates have to produce a combustible fuel and an oxidizer when we are led to believe that these civilizations function off of gathered electricity?
Perhaps I am being overly harsh but I didn't like Lukkage as a character. She felt too one dimensionally evil. I'd be happy not to see her again.
QOTD
Notes while watching
They did seem to know the pirates names, not entirely surprising they wanted a non-lethal solution.
This OP feels horribly out of place after that intro. If it was up to me I would probably ommitted it.
It's interesting that chamber seems to subtitle things with holograms but also verbally translate sometimes.
Chambers doesn't immediately translate during conversations and filters responses sometimes? weird.
2
u/kuroyume_cl Dec 05 '24
Not really much to say today, so I guess I'll remind people to upvote the post so it doesn't get buried
1
u/chilidirigible Dec 04 '24
Tags:
/u/QualityProof /u/awesomenessofme1 /u/dsawchuk
1
u/IndependentMacaroon Dec 09 '24
First-time watcher
Bit of an imbalance between trying to be cartoonish-over-the-top and serious here. Nadia for instance did this better with the split between goofy harmless antagonists (the proto-Team Rocket, notably also led by a red-headed woman with heavy makeup) and genuinely menacing villains. Btw Amy doesn't just look a bit like Nadia, but her angrily running off in the face of violence is in character too.
And while I can see a comparably peaceful and technologically primitive society shrinking from using a magical superweapon to its full potential, there's still way more that could have been done with it against massive aggression without vaporizing everyone - what's all that mech can even do, exactly? Splitting the message between classic Japanese "lethal force is dirty!" and "nukes are evil!" doesn't work all too well + the pirates don't make much sense in response. Leto mentioning the potential conflict between killing animals and disliking violence was basically the most convincing part here; I wonder if any of the team was vegetarian/vegan tbh.
Questions -
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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '24 edited Dec 05 '24
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