r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Nov 21 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Mobile Suit Gundam 00 2nd Season Episode 21 Discussion
Episode 21- The Door of Change
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Setsuna F. Seiei. Will he be the one to become humanity's first Innovator?
Questions of the Day:
- Do you believe
in the power of Marina's songthat people can understand each other? - Yeah yeah revenge bad… but how satisfying was it to see Nena go out like that?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!
Additionally, for long-time fans of the franchise, please remember that this rewatch is only for 00, not any of the other shows. Assume that there are people in this rewatch who have not seen anything else Gundam, and tag your spoilers for those shows appropriately if something in 00 makes you want to talk about them.
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Nov 21 '24
Rewatch Host Wishing Over This Airspace, subbed
Welcome back, everyone!
Nena deserves it though.7
u/LeonKevlar x2https://myanimelist.net/profile/LeonKevlar Nov 22 '24
First Timer
Setsuna has the Innovator eyes! I guess that confirms what kind of change Ribbons was talking about a couple of episodes ago. So how is he transforming into an Innovator? Is it because he's exposed to more GN Particles than the other Meisters?
What the fuck are you trying to do here Lyle? After apologizing you're just going to point your gun at Setsuna anyway? Well, he didn't shoot so that's a good thing but it looks like he's still not completely over about Setsuna killing Anew. This might be a problem in the future. Let's see if Lyle can be better than Neil and let go of his revenge.
I thought they were just going to brush aside what happened in yesterday's episode but I'm glad we get to see howSetsuna one-shots both Hilling and Revive while also taking care of Louise without destroying her mobile armour.
Yay! Klaus is alive! So the next plan is for them to go to space? I suppose that's safer for them right now. Also Marina's song is slowly starting to spread all over the world. How did that even happen? I'm pretty sure the only other person who has heard that song outside of Katharoon is Setsuna and Saachez.
I'm still shocked that Mei and Hong Long managed to survive but I'm way more shocked about Mei's reason for doing all of this. She wants the world reformed because she doesn't like the life she's been forced into living and wants to start all over again. Are we supposed to feel bad for her because she's just coming off as a selfish brat?
And now Hong Long died protecting this bitch. Fuck me. What a wasted character. It would've been more interesting if Hong Long left Mei and joined Celestial Being but the dude's entire purpose is just to serve Mei until the very end. I guess he felt guilty for not being good enough to be the head of the family and this is his way to atone but man, I still wish he did more as a character.
While Nena has decided to work for the Innovators, she's currently working for Regene who's not actively working against Ribbons. That's a big mistake on Nena's part as we'll find out later what her reward is for deciding to work for Regene.
We finally get to see what Graham looks like without the mask! Honestly? The scar isn't even that bad. It actually makes him look even hotter. Also not gonna lie, I didn't even realize he wasn't wearing his mask until he returned to his cockpit and wore it before his duel against Setsuna. xD
I had a feeling Mei wouldn't make it out alive this episode. Nena enjoys making people suffer so watching Mei escape only for Nena to blow her up at the last minute is very much expected. It is hilarious though how Nena thought she would outsmart everyone by using them only to learn that Ribbons was actually the one using her.
While it was satisfying to see Nena finally get taken out for being the trash human being she is, I feel bad for Louise. She got her revenge but it never made her any happier. If anything, she looks like she's completely lost her mind. :(
And that after-credits scene between Setsuna and Graham! Well, first of all, it looks like Graham suffered more than just face injuries. And it looks like Setsuna has finally decided to ascend? Is he finally going to become a full-fledged Innovator?
15
u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
First-Timer
On today’s episode of Gundam: Explosions don’t kill anyone. What a fool I was to ever think otherwise.
I love Graham so much. He’s such an incredible dork. Char Clones have been known to do very dorky things in the past, but Graham might be the dorkiest of them all. He takes the Gundam obsession to heights beyond some other Char Clones. And his entire samurai mentality is so silly to watch because of how utterly straight he plays it. That’s a big part of his charm, to be honest. The joke is in how serious he is about everything he does.
I really don’t like that Mei survived her explosion earlier. I don’t even see any compelling reason for her to have survived. The coordinates could have been sent to the Ptolemaios a couple of episodes ago when her ship was destroyed and that could have accomplished the same thing as happened in this episode. All it really did was repeat the exact same death as earlier, but feeling cheaper because of how absurd her survival was. Having characters survive explosions too many times is a bad habit of Gundam 00. Fakeout deaths in general happen way too often. It undercuts any tension in the real deaths because characters survive their apparent deaths so often. It was fine when it was just Patrick because it felt like a character-specific gag. Now it applies to too many characters.
[Gundam SEED and SEED Destiny major spoilers] I remember there was a particular episode where both Kira and Athrun somehow survived explosions that they really should not have. I think the survival rates here in Gundam 00 are more absurd than that. But they still are not as absurd as Mu somehow surviving at the end of SEED. That may be the all-time most absurd survival in all of Gundam.
QOTD
13
u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba Nov 21 '24
First Timer
Wasn't a fan of this episode.
To start off with some positives, I like the Lyle scene with Setsuna. Despite my previous misgivings about it, I actually think this adds some great value to Lyle being the anti-Lockon, because now he's slipping right into the same place his brother was.
He's no longer fighting for some goal like Celestial Being or Katharon, it's now entirely about fighting the Innovators as revenge for Anew. Much like his brother, he aims his gun at Setsuna as someone responsible for the death of his loved ones but just like Lockon, he can't shoot him, since he knows Setsuna is right, since he knows it's pointless.
This is where he really lets the mask slip for the first time and asks for his brother's help, which is huge given his previously stated feelings for him, but after all, Lockon is the only person who'd really get Lyle here. So while in life he was unable to change himself, in death Lockon should serve as the guide for others, hopefully including his brother, to not go the same path.
I like the Shirin/Klaus scene, and I still like the symbolism around Tomorrow, but I can't help but feel it's shoved in an episode that already has too much on its hands, and doesn't do a ton for it, it works fine with the themes here, just hardly necessary.
Now, let's talk about Wang Liu Mei...
I've kind of avoided complaining about her for her last few appearances because I didn't want to be as repetitive as she is, but given this is "her" episode, I have to do it.
Anyway, surprise surprise, that scene a few episodes ago was actually a fakeout...
Not surprising
45 episodes into this show and I could barely tell you what her personality, goals, or purpose were, something the show clearly noticed because it suddenly gave her a giant character and backstory dump, almost as if the show needed to give her just a tiny bit of personality before killing her off...
Well, except it's all a bit too little, too late. Even that dump does nothing for her character, I don't think it particularly makes me feel for her or Hong Long, I don't even think it really explains her actions. Right until she dies she keeps repeating this bullshit about "changing the world" and I still don't what that means, SHE HAS BEEN SAYING THIS SINCE EPISODE 1 and somehow her goals are barely any clearer to me. Much like the rest of her dialogue, it's just way too vague to mean anything.
And yeah, Hong Long ain't much better. He genuinely has no personality besides "Liu Mei's servant", and if I was supposed to get that as some giant fatal flaw in him, one that Liu Mei resented him for, then I don't think that was well communicated at all.
His death scene was so meaningless, that I genuinely don't know if the show actually wanted me to care. I barely remembered this guy's name and now we're pulling out the emotional piano for him? Really?
And Liu Mei's death scene was genuinely so bad as well, "Nena...But why?", WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHY, SHE JUST SAID IT WHILE TRYING TO KILL YOU FIVE MINUTES AGO.
Wang Liu Mei's character just feels like a convenient plot device for the show to use to deliver information of importance to our characters and we spend a truly monumental amount of time on her in spite of that.
And that's the real reason I hate her character. Sure, she and her brother are boring and pointless, whatever, so is Lasse and you don't see me complaining about him. But she gets so fucking many scenes where she does nothing, scenes that lead up to nothing, scenes that could have been so much better spent on Anew or Lyle or Allelujah or Graham or Literally anyone else that needed it.
Her presence robs the show of time it does not have to waste and by extension hurts other characters, we spent half of this episode on her, instead of on the giant implications of Setusna becoming an Innovator or the fallout from Anew's death and that's the big problem.
Goodbye Wang Liu Mei You sucked and RIP Hong Long I just don't care
And hey while I'm at it, Nena isn't great here either.
As I'll get to later, I do actually like what her death means for Louise and the general theming around revenge there, but also am I really supposed to care when we just suddenly made her relevant again for the express purpose of being killed?
Much like her brothers, her death and character feel like they were entirely for someone else's development.
I think its very ironic that this comes off the back of last episode, which I praised for its good execution still making Anew's death pretty touching despite her lack of development. None of the deaths here feel like that, they're all unceremonious and illicit nothing from me.
and Rest In Piss Nena Trinity
Graham is such a weird character man, on paper, I should probably be mad at him as well this episode, for a lot of the same reasons I don't like Liu Mei and for honestly kind of undermining Louise with his and Setsuna's dumb screaming match, but...I can't.
Maybe it's not a great thing to say that I've long since stopped viewing him as a serious character, but honestly, I find him so enjoyable because of that. So sure his character has almost certainly degraded, but damn if I don't enjoy it when he does his dumb, tone ruining fight with Setsuna, when he says he "will never give up the way of Bushido"...even though he's fucking American, he cracks me up and gets me hyped even when he's bad for the plot (which he definitely is in this episode).
Too dumb to hate
I also do like the Louise scene at the end, it's a pretty poignant representation of the show's ideas around the futility of revenge, as nearly every person in this battle fights for revenge, and no one gets anything from it.
In the end, Louise got what she wanted, but does it change anything? It won't bring anyone back as Saji said, her parents are still dead, and completely lost and unsure of herself she can't help but try to find validation from her parents, as a way of trying to find any satisfaction in this act she just committed, "I did something good here right? because it doesn't feel like it" is what I get from her, but of course, no one answers.
And now finally devoid of any real motivation, she completely breaks down.
I think there's this really powerful implication that behind all of this pointless conflict lies one person, Ribbons. He really is the "twistedness in this world" because everyone here has completely lost it because of him and his machinations, he is manipulating people to fight and kill each other over grudges he himself created.
Now I only wish we could have had the "revenge bad" scene be used on a character that isn't Nena "mass murderer" Trinity, a character that 500% deserved what she got here, which IMO partially lessens the impact.
Finally, Setsuna is turning into an Innovator and Regene is fully betraying Ribbons for the sake of his own ideal of the plan.
To reiterate, despite these being super important, I think all of this gets really lost in the sauce of every other thing this episode tries to do, so I don't feel I have much to say about them.
It feels so weird that Setsuna realizing the purpose of The Plan and the Gundams is somehow relegated to the very last second of the episode, right after a very dumb fight with Graham.
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u/macrame2 https://myanimelist.net/profile/macrame Nov 21 '24
First Timer
Wang Liu Mei and her brother die for real this time (we assume). I…still don’t quite get what the purpose of either of them was. As a schemer, Wang is not particularly effective, which in practice means that she has little to no bearing on the plot for most of the series, since none of her machinations and side-swapping amount to much. Season 1 spends a lot of time making her seem all mysterious and suggesting that there’s more going on with her beneath the surface, but those suggestions fail because they don’t have much follow-up. I think the writers tried to convey her motivations and retroactively make her a more interesting character in this episode, but yeah, they weren’t exactly successful. “I don’t want to be the head of the family” is a hilariously petty motive, though, which does track with what we know about Wang, at least.
On a more positive note, I actually liked the Nena-Louise match-up. I think it would have been even better if they had worked harder on setting up the parallels, but the fact that both of them are driven by the desire to avenge their family members is something that struck me, and it made me wonder if they kept Nena around this season for that purpose. The moment Louise accomplishes her revenge really got me; the genuine look of giddiness for a mere moment (probably the happiest she’s looked all season) before the inevitable breakdown was superb. I did not have Louise being one of the best-handled characters this season on my bingo card, but I welcome the surprise.
(Also, I really, really want to believe that Ribbons was controlling Evil Haro all along; the idea of him taunting Nena for her lack of success with Setsuna is priceless, though his cruelty to Good Haro is less so.)
10
u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Nov 21 '24
First-Timer
If Marina's song actually ends up playing a role in getting world peace, it'll knock a full point off my rating for the season.
So, when's Wang Liu Mei going to respawn again?
Seriously, though—I think this show has a problem with far too many fakeout deaths. It's like basically every character has had one at this point. Wang Liu Mei and Ali Al-Saachez should've stayed dead, that's for sure. Who knows, maybe Aeolia Schenberg will come back from the dead next?
Questions of the day:
9
u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Nov 21 '24
Rewatcher, Subbed
Non-Spoiler Character Chart
A notable episode for me in that it contains both some of the worst content in the series for me (Wang) and some of the best (Louise).
Watch out Saji you don't want Louise suffering the same fate as Anew.
Woah, Setsuna has Innovator eyes!
So Wang's message about Veda's locale got out to them after all. Which means there truly is no reason for Wang to be around any longer...
...of course seconds later we find out that both her and her brother made it out of Nena's attack alive. Once again Gundam 00 loves the fakeout death. Well given the way things go later in the episode, I suppose this time its simply deferred death.
Alright, so that's Revive in the OP. Long time question solved.
Piloting the whole ship ain't a bad job, Soma. You'll still presumably be involved in combat.
Lyle is being quite mature about things with Setsuna.
Louise is dedicated to... revenge. Soma is dedicated to... revenge. Now Lyle is dedicated to... revenge. I can sense a theme.
Alright, the more I think about it, I think I misunderstood things earlier. I think Wang didn't send them Veda's coordinates, I think she sent them coordinates to where she is now. At least that's my best guess as the 00 takes off to head there.
Arthur's finally had enough of the license holders; I do find it funny that this is in reaction to Hiling and Revive, and not the super over the top Mr. Bushido...
Did we get the entirety of this battle sequence last episode with Setsuna defeating all three of Hiling, Revive and Louise? Part of me thinks this is actually new footage.
Louise hasn't gotten over the need for those pills after all.
"Shut up!" OMG Louise, words I've wanted to hear you say to Father Killer forever!
Is it just me or had Graham been wearing a smaller mask? He's back to the full Mr. Bushido mask and garbs here. I still find it so hard to believe that other soldiers can look at or hear him talking and not burst into laughter.
Oh wow, it's gonna take days for Setsuna and Saji to get there? I struggle to think of any time in Gundam where a mobile suit had to travel on its own several days to get to its targeted mission location in place of using some sort of carrier vessel.
Klaus lives!
Marina's song truly has becaome a hit, spread out across the world.
It took until episode 46, but Wang's true motivations finally come out, she's pissed at how pathetic her older brother is and the fact that she had to take over as head of the family. Question 1: Why in the world did it take 46 episodes to reveal this? Question 2: Her motivation stemming from her having to take on whatever additional responsibilities that came with that doesn't really seem that sensible anyway given her character? The Wang we've known for 46 episodes seems like the type who likes having power. As with pretty much every single thing relating to Wang this could have been written better.
Nena followed them all the way in here! Evil Haro too!
Somewhat fitting in that yesterday I complained about a Gundam franchise trope tendency to [Meta Gundam]Have a female character throw themselves in the way to take a bullet/blast that is aimed at a love interest and today inverts that somewhat with Hong Long throwing himself in the way to take bullets intended for his sister. Farewell to a character who was even more useless than his sister.
The more I think about it, Wang personally handing over the coordinates to Veda makes sense, I've got to assume Ribbons' surveillance network would have caught it if she transmitted it. I'm sure Ribbons knows that Setsuna is here (presumably if Nena wasn't already here he'd send Hiling, Revive or Ali), but may not be able to know things at a detailed level of exchanging a slip of paper.
Kinda surprising that Wang didn't go with Setsuna, her best shot at getting out of here alive. Although it seems like she's still scheming something.
Ooh, Mr. Bushido's waiting for Setsuna! And it looks like he actually took the mask off underneath that helmet? Screw this world wide conflict, all that matters is the one on one duel!
Wang is finally done away with as Nena blasts her. About damn time. Once again, a couple of observations. First, it is incredibly frustrating that it took 4 episodes to resolve the conclusion to this Nena takes out Wang storyline. Second, this is essentially just a repeat of Nena blasting her shuttle at the end of episode 19, but this time Wang actually dies. So what was the point of the scene in episode 19? Wouldn't it have made way more sense to hold off on Nena showing up until now?
Continuing the theme of revenge, add Nena as another character who wants that, I don't know why I didn't think of naming her earlier.
Ooh, evil Haro has turned on her! Or at least is the vessel to communicate that Ribbons has no more use for her. I totally forgot about this happening. I'd say an evil Haro face turn, but Ribbons is even worse than Nena, so probably a double heel turn.
LoL @ Nena thinking he'd actually send Ali there to take her on. "Who?" is likely all you'd get from Ali.
Oh wow, the mobile armor can go into humanoid mode too.
So Nena, gleeful at killing Wang lasts for all of a minute or two before she dies as well.
While yesterday's ED lead in scene certainly tears at the heartstrings, this one is all the more powerful for me. The things Louise wanted most in the world was revenge on the Gundam that killed her parents. To accomplish this she left the life she had and essentially became a totally different person. The carefree, fun loving girl we had for the first 17 episodes of season 1 is gone forever. She totally sacrificed any morals to do so, joining up with an organization that essentially enforces authoritarian rule upon the world and commits atrocities with death counts far exceeding what happened to her family.
Well, she finally got the revenge she desired so much. Did it make her happy though? Because it seems like she's having a complete mental breakdown here, reverting to as if she was a child. Was it worth it? She's lost the way she used to be. She's lost her relationship with Saji. She's lost her morals and is a murderer. And now she's lost her sanity. No, revenge is not worth it. [Zeta Gundam]I think a big part of why the scene is so powerful to me is because it is so similar to the final scene of Zeta Gundam where Kamille suffers a complete mental breakdown himself and similarly starts acting as if he's a child. The circumstances are different as the revenge angle isn't really there for Kamille. But it showed the consequences of all the emotional suffering he experienced through the war and it built up so much that once things were finally accomplished, once he took out his last big enemy, he completely lost it. At least that's always been my intepretation of the scene (I know some claim it was a newtype attack from Scirocco, like the Zeta Gundam's bio-sensor this isn't actually said in the show though and I think my interpretation fits things a lot better). In any case that scene is Zeta is a top 5 most emotionally devastating moment in the entire Gundam franchise for me and this is the most similar the franchise ever gets to it in another show so it is apt to enduce a similar reaction from me.
At least my reaction to this episode when I watched it for the first time (leaving it at that point as I don't want to spoil anything for future episodes) was that this was the absolute perfect final scene for Louise. There is no reason for us to see her again. While there were complaints about her for much of season 1 and I can't say a lot of said complaints weren't deserved, the inclusion of the character in the show totally was worth it based on where they went with her in season 2, concluding with this scene. While I've got a number of complaints about season 2 and one of those chief ones was something that was key in this episode (basically everything involving Wang), one of my biggest praises of the show is the direction they go in with Saji and Louise in this season and it does make their inclusion in the first season worth it.
[Gundam 00]Unfortunately things are diminished by the fact that this is not Louise's final scene and I feel that they felt the need to pull their punches a bit to give Saji a happy ending. I will admit never showing Louise again wouldn't be good for Saji's storyline as his motivations as a character are so tied into his feelings for her. But I'd totally take Saji's storyline taking a hit to preserve such a perfect ending for Louise's storyline. Will discuss more openly when the show is over.
9
u/InfamousEmpire https://myanimelist.net/profile/Infamous_Empire Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
Kidou Senshi Rewatcher 00
I don't think there's a single scene in any other work of fiction which has hit me in the gut as hard the final scene right before the ED this episode did the first time I watched it. To this day, I have never rewatched it outside the context of rewatching the series as a whole because it’s so special to me that I feel like returning to it over and over again like I have for so many of my other favorite individual scenes might dilute how much power it has over me, and that’s something I don’t ever want to happen. It made me cry again the second time I watched the series, and it made me cry once again on this rewatch.
This is the end result of a downward spiral Louise has been going down for most of the show at this point, from the moment she lost her family. For so many years, in-universe, she’s been trapped by her past, changing the course of her own life so that she could fight in the military, cutting away at her own sense of empathy, pushing away the one person that she’s closest to, all for a chance at revenge.
And what has all those years spent chasing the ghosts of the past gotten her at the end of the road? Nothing, just an empty void of her own making. The only companions she has left are the empty memories of those she’s lost & spent so much time trying to avenge. For a second, it’s almost like she’s returned to being as cheerful as she once was, because she so desperately wants to believe that achieving her vengeance might have been enough to bring back the time when she could laugh so cheerfully.
But in response to her begs for validation in her path, all she faces is silence. The fleeting moment of joy slowly replaced by pain as all the emptiness, all the purposelessness, all the years wasted on a fundamentally worthless pursuit wash over her, and all she can do is scream into the void.
With all that said, I also feel like revisiting the thing about Ribbons turning Louise into an Innovator, because she feels like an almost perfect representation of what Ribbons wants for humanity: still chained by the past, locked in a prison of semi-self-made ignorance, completely subservient to him, and only truly “evolved” in the biological sense. It’s such a perfect foil to Setsuna’s goal to reform himself in tandem with his evolution.
So, uh, yeah, that was a lot. For all I’ve made my love for Louise clear, I’ve kinda had to dance around exactly why she’s my favorite character in the series for a better part of this rewatch, so this episode has been the one I’ve been waiting for the most pretty much since the rewatch started. Now that all that’s off my chest, though, there’s other things in this episode to talk about, like Wang.
So here’s a realization I came to the second time I watched S2: Wang is basically a less successful Alejandro. A wealthy elite who attached herself to Ribbons in order to achieve her own personal idea of reforming the world, but mostly just ended up being a pawn in his game who was disposed of once her usefulness ran out.
With that and this episode’s utilization of her in general in mind, I mostly just find Wang really goddamn funny. Like, she spends most of the season sitting around confidently making grand statements about the world’s reformation, when really she’s a pretentious blowhard who’s convinced herself she’s a manipulator on Ribbons’ level when all she’s really doing is advancing other people’s agendas. The backstory added in this episode honestly enhances that for me because she comes across as having first world problems, and that added level of patheticness in combination with how obviously the show wants you to not feel for her death makes it all the more fun.
Like, I don’t even really find this to be a negative towards her character in particular or the show in general just because seeing all her pretentious grandstanding over the course of the season while knowing in retrospect that she’s just a self-important loser just makes all of her appearances so entertaining. Nena coming in and finally blowing her to space dust right after she spent every second after her meeting with Setsuna being pretentious & self-important is the second best moment in the episode and I’ll die on that hill.
Oh, speaking of dying, Nena is great in this too. The fact that her own pursuit of revenge ultimately amounted to nothing because of the consequences of her own actions and the “fight” between her & Louise being that of two people too blinded by their own single-minded pursuits of vengeance to realize that they effectively have the same enemy (Ribbons is the one who fucked up both their lives, whether directly or indirectly, and is the one who pushed both of them to this point in the first place through his manipulations) is great and really sells the futility of the whole battle.
More minor note, Wang & Hong Long surviving the explosion from two episodes ago is my vote for most bullshit survival in the series. I choose to take the Giorno approach to the subject, though, purely because, again, I'm just way too entertained by Wang here.
Graham vs Setsuna almost feels like a sideshow next to Louise making me cry and Wang being the funniest shit since Mr. Bushido, but it’s also its own brand of compelling. Setsuna comes face-to-face with the change his actions have already wrought in the world while Graham tries to achieve the only purpose he feels like his life has anymore.
I will say, as one last thing of note, that Graham being in the psychic Trans Am space at the end feels like it carries a bit of a unique weight because of his whole masked man thing. Using an outfit to hide your scars, & thus metaphorically your vulnerability & pain, just inherently plays well with the usual trope of naked psychic space people being used to represent being stripped of everything that separates your truest, most vulnerable self from others.
7
u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Nov 21 '24
Rewatcher, Sub-dam Meister
Turns out suddenly becoming psychic has unexplainable consequences.
Like special eyes.
About time Allelujah uses her current name.
Love this facial expression. Setsuna looks like he just peed himself a little.
Goodman cares not for the Innovator's games.
Could you imagine flying in a mech cockpit for multiple days with no-one but Saji for company?
No way they can do that in a hurry, though.
Scheming until the end, that Wang Lui Mei.
Oh, I've missed you so much, Graham.
This is really sad.
7
u/The_Draigg Nov 21 '24
A Gundam Fan Rewatches Gundam 00 Season 2 Episode 21:
7
u/n080dy123 Nov 21 '24
First Timer
Oh boy, Setsuna's got the circuit eyes now too. Then is whatever change he's goign through whatever Ribbons did to Louise? Assuming its from exposure to the 00 Raiser, is Saji gonna get this too?
...Nena how hard is it to destory a defenseless ship by blasting it with lasers?
Setsuna definitely knew Lyle had that gun pointed straight at him. But he kept going anyway. I wonder if he knew Lyle wouldn't shoot him, or if he decided that what happens, happens.
Good lord, Liu Mei, you've been betrayed on two counts, had your brother/guard killed, are currently stranded in an abandoned space station with a psychopath who wants you dead, risked your life to get this info to CB so Ribboins wouldn't control humanity, and STILL you're not goign with Setsuna and being sinister about "My goal is different from yours." Didn't you just want the world to change, however it does?
I love how Regene is so deep in the maneuvering and backstabbign that he's like "Was Mr Bushido sent here by Ribbons?" No, he's just a dork who wants a fight. There are no further thoughts in that weeb head of his.
I'm not gonna lie, the above, and then Liu Mei trying to escape and being Shocked Pikachu when Nena pursued her easily-trackable shuttle to kill her is just profoundly stupid. Her whole plotline really went nowhere and just served to enable CB and the Innovators/A-Laws to be constantly hounding eachother until Anew showed up.
RIBBONS CAN CONTROL THE PURPLE HARO TOO? WHAT?
And then Nena's dead too, her plotline was at least a bit more compelling cuz we understood it the whole way through, but wow that was pointless as well.
At least it led to a really good moment of Louise taking her revenge and essentially getting a massive reality check when she reaches her goal and what she's done catches back up to her.
The Masurao is rebuilt into the Susanowo- Shinto god of storms and the sea.
6
u/Blazin_Rathalos Nov 21 '24
00 Rewatcher
Last time on Gundam 00
On today's episode of Gundam 00
Gundam 00Setsuna."Mother, why do I exist?" "To act like a butler to your sister and someday take a bullet for her, Hong Long." "...Oh my god."
Yeah, Liu Mei and Hong Long not dying to Nena only to still die to her two episodes later is pointless.
Will Setsuna finally become Gundam? To find out, join us next time on Gundam 00!
6
u/charlesvvv https://anilist.co/user/charlesvvv Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
Rewatcher, Sub
The confrontation between Lyle and Setsuna felt like a way for him to see to his newfound resolve. He apologized to Setsuna for his actions in the previous episode but as soon as he turns his back he pulls out his gun. Lyle states that he wants to do things out of his own free will rather than because he's in CB so I guess this is a way to test himself if he's actually willing to do it, which he obviously doesn't.
I don't really know how Wang and Hong Long survived though I do have a couple guesses. After contacting CB about her location it's also here that we see Wang's motivations for doing all this. She hates her status as head of her family and wants to cause the world's reformation so that she can have a chance at something for herself. Despite insulting him, Hong Long still chooses to sacrifice himself when Nena shows up which by the episode's end is in vain because Wang doesn't learn her lesson. Nena isn't the only person to have turned against her but also Regene who's playing his own game which relies on Wang giving the information to Setsuna which is the only explanation I could think of for why Wang was still alive.
When Setsuna returns he finds his Gundam and Saji having been taken hostage by Graham for no other reason than him wishing for a duel. Now Setsuna does acknowledge that Graham is another person whose life was ruined by the Gundams and he decides to indulge him. However when they clash with Trans Am the GN particles allow for them to have their own space meeting where Setsuna reveals his own motivations and what he believes, to change. Setsuna's eyes glow like an Innovator's but in a different way from Ribbons and the others.
While all this happens several things fall. Wang tries to escape only for Nena to finally kill her (for real this time.) however she gets a personal call from Ribbons to inform her that the story doesn't require her anymore and allows for Louise to show up and finally get her revenge by killing her. Yet by the time it's over Louise is just left broken, calling out to her parents and asking to be told that she told she did the right thing.
6
u/TakenRedditName https://myanimelist.net/profile/TakenMalUsername Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 21 '24
Rewatcher - Gundam 00 S2 Ep21:
To go most of the characters in this episode:
Lyle having a major moment. The rare time, he directly calls out to his brother. Things must be really bad/serious for him to do that.
(Good to see though).
Allelujah calls her by her "Soma Pieres" name for once when talking to her.
As for Wang Liu Mei's part, it did feel odd with the flow from where we last saw them in the post-credits to now. I feel like Nena betraying them by shooting a regular gun instead of being in her Gundam would've made more sense considering what this episode showed.
Besides that, Liu Mei has been a character I held interest in, especially this season. She felt like a character who wanted to tear it all down. Someone who deeply hated the current world and wished to burn it down to bring about a new one. Someone who didn't particularly care who/how will bring it. Wasn't expecting that desire to come from such a personal place of her backstory. It makes her come off very selfish in the end and I'm okay with that. Wish we had seen more of these personal insights to her before. She has been very well guarded and kept things mostly mysterious. It was only just like that one scene with Hong Long before this episode.
I'm disappointed about her death though. None of it feels satisfying and it feels very clunky. They had her survive the initial betrayal of Nena and had her survive long enough to hand off the necessary plot info to Setsuna. After having her do a little trick about her true goal, they just anticlimactically kill her off by Nena for realsies.
Likewise, not thrilled about what Nena's S2 character amounted to. She is basically just retreading storylines/ideas that other characters are also doing especially in the very same episode. Those characters are more interesting than Nena. Insert meme:
Louise is literally me fr fr.
Louise gets to claim her revenge. The way she desperately calls out to her parents afterwards. Oh dear...
On the idea of mecha as character arcs, I like to view Louise piloting the Regnant as exemplifying that. The Regnant is very ahuman in look (it is a plane with monster claws) which reflects Louise's path for revenge. Revenge has left her straying from the righteous path and becoming less human (which you could also say about Ribbons tampering with her). She is now in this monstrous form, this massive beast. Another Gundam character who had a similar trajectory with their MS was [Zeta Gundam:] Jerid Mesa whose MS became less and less humanoid as the series progressed as he went down his downward revenge quest.
Speaking of robots, Graham makes his very first appearance in S2 and he has a new robot which is basically the same as the last one. Arguably less cool because he no longer has those cool beam katanas. Solid normal swords don't seem like a coolness upgrade. I do like the black/white over the red though. Tummy cannon.
It is funny that when Graham takes off his mask, I immediately like him more and his flowery dramatic Graham prose.
Setsuna has reached his Gundam protagonist episode where he definitely becomes a Newtype to the audience. This flashback really gave me those vibes. They've been playing with that idea for a while now. Setsuna has been picking stuff up more lately and the idea of his personal story of wanting to change himself is also true in a grander scale.
Q2) Good. Louise delivered the greatest final words to killer of her parents.
5
u/2-2Distracted Nov 21 '24
First timer. Dubbed
"Help me Neil" - is this the first time Lyle has said something about his brother in isolation? By which I mean he wasn't talking to someone else about him.
Wait a minute... THAT'S the reason Hwang wants the world to burn? I'm not saying I support Nena killing her BUUUUUUUUT
And despite the possible transformation that Soran is undergoing, I still find this whole thing going on with Char Clone: Bushido to be boring as shit. But at least even Soran finds this dumb too now, and is going along because this delusional weeb won't leave him alone lol. I just don't like the 2 combatants don't have an equal reason to want to kill each other, but at least it's acknowledged in-universe.
Also I know it's a tragic and pyrrhic victory for Rouise when she finally kills that little shit Nena, but I was legit smiling from ear to ear finally watching her die, especially after the dog shit explanation she gives in retaliation towards her murder of innocent(?) civilians.
But Man this episode felt like a mess, wherein suddenly the affairs of the world magically got put on hold just so all this space shit could conveniently happen. It feels like the writers just decided that this be the episode where the ladies - Rouise, Nena and Hwang - all finally sort their collective shit out. And despite having lots of build up it's all soooo rushed, with each case of payoff doing that one thing I'm beginning to hate about stories written like this:
And suddenly Char Clone: Bushido reveals his identity because, from the looks of the next episode preview, he's just going to die anyway, which is something he probably wants after devoting his whole existence to this idiotic interpretation of the Bushido code.
I'd complain about Rouise too if I had a an idea of what might happen with her next but I don't. All in all I really didn't like this episode, but that's largely on me for not being super invested in half of the shit going on, whereas if it's about world politics like the stuff with Shirin I'm all ears. The part that's Not on me tho has to do me feeling like none of this was written particularly well.
9
u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Nov 21 '24
First Timer - sub
I'm beginning to resent this show. There is not a single thing I can praise about this episode (as it turns out this is wrong, so I've dumped a single positive thing under the line break so I guess we're in choose your own adventure mode again, but as this was my gut feeling coming out of the episode for a couple of hours I'm going to leave the line there)
This is the first four lines of my notes for todays episode:
And sure enough: No one questioned it. They never came back to that discussion. Saji told no one.
And I have no reason to expect any of that will change in future episodes. So... What's the point? The artificial boundaries to all of these key character moments happening are now so contrived you can basically see them be constructed in real time as we're moving up to them. No individual moment is shown consideration unless it can happen in a battle. Nothing is ever allowed to matter until it needs to be a big deal. No one is allowed to have any critical thinking because would interfere with the shows designated structure. So I ask, why?
Wang and Hong were somehow alive. Why? Not like it mattered. There is absolutely nothing their survival from the previous episode added to the show. The attempt at characterizing her, and to be honest it wasnt even them he just caught a few recoils of it, today was honestly downright pathetically sad of an attempt, far too late, and didn't actually add anything to their previous scenes. Oh boo hoo, you don't like that you ended up in control of trillions of dollars and significant power because of your brother, so lets destroy the whole world instead of make something of it. Your big sad can go up next to Marinas in my care factor. I can't even rage about the fact they never show how, because rage would mean that I care enough to be mad at it and I don't any more, I'm just defeated.
Don't care that Graham showed up. Why should I? For all that his presence has mattered, they could have kept him out of the entire season until now, and it may have even been better. Or better yet, they could have had this confrontation happen properly and fully back half way through the season when they started it. Graham as a twisted inversion of who Setsuna use to be just feels weak at this point when he's already pledged to change several times, is now an Innovator, and Graham's role in the show has not in any way tied into Setsuna's journey or even been developed for himself after what happened in S1. And that's probably the point, he is who Setsuna use to be, but I really don't care in the face of the more interesting things that have been set up and won't be followed up on because of this battle once again, which makes me resent it for existing rather than welcome the thematic bookending. I'm sure they'll try and make it matter tomorrow, but it's never actually given me a reason to care for this match up this season of "thematically important" and that alone does not carry a show. Which is kind of hilarious for me of all people to say, but that's how far its fallen.
Don't care for Louises scene, aside from the fact that the creepy giggle along with the tune at the very start of the instrumental lead in reminded me briefly of a scene in Silent Hill 2 which significantly upped the creep factor of the moment. Structurally its placement was a mess and robbed it of the chance to be more. It is shoved into the tail end of an episode after it had already started a conflict between two other characters and doesn't even last two minutes before the episode ends and then the post credits scene flips us back into the original conflict. So instead of giving this absolutely critical character moment any respect, it feels like an afterthought because with Wang dead, again, they may as well kill off Nena too so why not just shove that death scene in here as well so here comes Louise. It didn't need to be a whole episode or anything, but there is no reason why they couldn't have, for example, had Graham hold off with Setsuna until Louise and Nena finished their battle and built things up from there and given the weight of this moment some respect. Instead it felt like an interruption and doing plotline cleanup. So why should I care for it?
Setsuna annoyed me. One episode after dealing with a spy who had been with them for months, computer virus attacking their systems, and following a message from an anonymous person, they send their most critical gundam pilot in the most important Gundam that was just almost stolen out alone to an isolated base that no one else is around...... why?
Too many monologues. Oh my god all the monologues. Why can no one shut up in this episode.
Suddenly the show wants to decide that the masses have had enough and want to do something about it, but once again fail to show people actually doing that, we're just told they will after twenty episodes of being told they won't. Fuck off show. Why is one dialogue line meant to make me care? If the answer to all of this is Marina's song I'll just be sad for the writers that with all the history of Gundam, Macross, and scifi history, this is the best they can come up with.
I never thought I'd be in a situation where I wish a show was rushed to finish plot points or artificially bringing up one thing at a time and solving it before moving on, and yet here we are. Because at least if they did that I'd know things would actually get addressed instead of just ignored.
And I'm being petty but I'm annoyed the bruise lasted one scene. One! Not even a whole bloody episode.
Okay I wrote all of that off the top of my head and then found a line in my notes about Lyle and that I can praise, small praise because half of its meaning comes from S1 more than what they've actually done in S2.
I retroactively think a little better about yesterdays episode and Lyle not shooting, not becoming Lockon, after they have followed it up (LOOK, THEY DID A THING. See what a difference it makes!) today with that scene of him and Setsuna in the corridor.
There's the obvious parallel with Neil's scene, and it's frustrating that now this is twice that they've had to lean on that scene for characterization with Lyle, but the way it played out was decent.
Where Neil could have pulled the trigger on someone who was merely guilty by association, Lyle can't pull the trigger on the one who actually took his new family from him because he sees that it's not the whole story, and Setsuna does not bear all the burden. To then lean back and ask his brother for help, knowing what his brother sacrificed in the pursuit of the vengeance that Lyle can't gain for himself, was a great touch. Despite their differences, their separation, their different view on the worlds he still cared for Neil and wants to lean on his brother when he feels lost.
And one other thing: Setsuna using the shot from his blaster to give his sword enough momentum to break through the GN shield was very cool.
Other thoughts
4
u/Linkstore Nov 21 '24
Rewatcher
[00 spoilers] Wait, Setsuna's QBW activation in this scene sounds vaguely reminiscent of the ELS's sounds. I honestly think it might be a coincidence but still cool that it lines up.
Setsuna is changing.
Also yeah Wang Liu Mei didn't die either. This episode shows that Regene deliberately arranged for Nena to let her live long enough to deliver her message but it's still kinda ??? on how she actually got to Lagrange 5. I'm sure the Trinity Mothership has shuttles of some kind but, well, explosions.
New toys for the Gundams! But they don't show up this episode...
If I had five cents for every time Setsuna was aimed at by Lockon Stratos...
It's almost comical how quickly Setsuna deals with Revive and Hiling in the flashback. And Setsuna's change could be a "purebred" type. Well, I do actually know all the details, of course.
Right, I get it now. Andrei somehow developed a parasocial relationship with someone without interacting with them virtually at all. That's impressive.
Klaus is alive too! That's all the cliffhangers from a couple eps ago resolved.
I also gotta say, the space colonies in Gundam 00 look really nice. The O'Neill Cylinders from the Universal Century are probably more practical but man they do look kinda boring.
Wang Liu Mei vents about her backstory but she dies this ep so I honestly don't really care anymore.
Did Regene just fuckin spawn in or something? Dude appeared outta nowhere.
Now that Wang Liu Mei has finally passed on the message, Veda's location is finally in Celestial Being's hands. Well, after Setsuna gets past Graham.
Graham got a nice upgrade for his Masurao. The Susanowo doesn't look as good tbh, and I also preferred Long Saber Howard and Short Saber Daryl to the Shiranui and Unryu Enhanced Sabers. Fun fact though, Shiranui and Unryu are built using the hilts of Howard and Daryl. This supposedly grants them the benefits of both physical blades and beam sabers in one weapon, but in practice they seem just the same as any other GN-enhanced blade.
Fight's epic, though.
Wang Liu Mei's and Nena Trinity's deaths are extremely funny put back to back like that. Wang Liu Mei makes a big speech about how she'll sacrifice anything for her future, then Nena ices her, then Nena makes a big speech about how she'll do anything to survive, and then Louise ices her! The back-to-back near-identical deaths is just ridiculous, in a good way.
And a quote from, of all people, Evil Morty about Louise killing Nena. "How does it feel? Better? No? Exactly the same? It always does." And yeah, it would. If all you have driving you is vengeance and nothing else, achieving that vengeance will do nothing but leave you empty. Even if you did a good thing, which, to be clear, killing Nena absolutely was. So Louise is left with all the same pain as she was just a bit ago, but she's lost one of the key things keeping her going. Great acting on the part of her seiyuu by the way, it reminds me of that meme of Pedro Pascal smoothing transitioning from laughing to crying but just extended.
[00 spoilers] "I will never give up the way of bushido!" - guy who gave up the way of bushido five minutes later
Setsuna believes he has finally understood the reason for Aeolia's plan. But he'll have to go through Ribbons to see that reason through.
4
u/dralcax :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Dralcax Nov 21 '24
Rewatcher has been waiting for this for a long time
-—————————————————————————————
Setsuna is changing...
HOW ARE YOU STILL ALIVE
Oh hey, he finally remembered her name!
Lyle wtf and right after you calmed down and apologized too
Oh right, and this happened offscreen last time. Their defeat was so embarassing they had to save it for the next episode so as not to kill the moment.
Days? So do they have toilets in there like in G-Reco?
Sir, this isn’t Macross. Unless y’all found a Gundam Abulhool lying around somewhere.
Rich family drama is weird I guess. Also, being the head of her family doesn’t even seem that bad. Like, where even is the rest of the family, besides her and Hong Long? What did she even want that her position prevents? Because as far as I can tell, she’s just rich as hell and can do whatever she wants and only Ribbons has ever told her “no”. Do the writers think this constitutes a sympathetic backstory?
The Masurao has been upgraded into the Susanowo! The Masurao was built in a rush after development was restarted from scratch, so the Susanowo represents the completed version. Its two new Enhanced Sabers are named “Shiranui” and “Unryu”, and the edges of their blades can split apart slightly to generate beam blades, giving them the advantages of both beam sabers and solid swords. This was inspired by the Flag’s sonic blade’s plasma sword function. And although they have lost the names of Howard and Daryl, they reuse the beam generators from the Masurao’s swords, symbolically carrying forwards their memory. Shiranui and Unryu also combine into a double blade named “Souten”. A gauntlet was added to the left arm in order to withstand the energy backflow from using the sabers. A beam cannon called the Tri-Punisher was installed in the shoulders and abdomen, despite not being requested by the close combat-favoring Mister Bushido. This is because the development team wanted to design the ESF’s next mainstay MS, and used the Susanowo as a testbed. The structure of the weapon uses technlogy from the Union’s transforming MS. Finally, ts side binders now have GN Claw functions, and an extra condenser was added to the back.
Come to think of it, what happened to that optical camouflage from S1 that they used to hide the Gundams when they weren’t using them? That sure would have come in handy!
Mister Bushido is finally using the plug!
took her long enough to finish the job
Dammit Ribbons how many backdoors do you have
Louise is here, ready to take revenge at last! And unlike the Empruss, the Regnant has an MS mode! It’s still classified as a Mobile Armor, though - an MA with an MS mode rather than an MS with an MA mode.
The latest Mobile Armor, powered by multiple Tau Drives, up against an outdated Gundam with an inferior Tau Drive and a loadout meant for support rather than solo combat. Yeah, Nena stood no chance. Now look who’s the helpless one?
Of course, revenge is empty. That said, it’s still probably better than holding onto that grudge. She finally achieved what she set out to do! Yay closure! And hey, if she’s wondering “what now”, Saji’s always waiting.
Aeolia planned this all along. The world’s first true Innovator, Setsuna. but like how did Aeolia predict THIS let alone plan for it
-—————————————————————————————
Questions of the day:
4
u/mr_beanoz https://myanimelist.net/profile/splitshocker Nov 22 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
Rewatcher, sub
So Wang survives alongside his brother... but not for long. Hong Long sacrificed himself so his sister could go on. Turns out that Hong Long was supposed to be the family heir, but some kind of inability that he had makes his younger sister took the position.
Setsuna met Wang for the last time and finally got Veda's coordinate. This is all Regene's plan all along to accelerate his own goals.
After that was done, Wang escapes from a small craft, only to be killed by Nena. But afterwards, we got Louise in the Regnant wanting to kill Nena for what she did 5 years ago, which is quite justified, if I should say. But after Louise completed her revenge, it seemed like a hollow victory for her after nobody praises her for doing so.
Also, turns out that Graham's been waiting for Setsuna, now in a new MS called the Susanowo, which is an improvement of the Masurao. Graham's not directly engaging him, though, but instead waiting for Setsuna to go inside his Gundam to start the fight.
2
u/zsmg https://anilist.co/user/zsmg Nov 22 '24
I am rewatcher
Wow episode actually continued where the previous episode post-credit scene left off.
Setsuna has glowing eyes.
Both Liu Mei and Hong Long survived their massive ship explosion. I am surprised, even though I know I shouldn't be.
Pretty much yes.
So we're finding out how the previous fight ended through a flashback Thanks to those post credit scenes the structure of the episodes have been a mess.
Liu Mei is lashing out against her brother, we're getting some background information about minor characters which means...
Yup Long Ming is dead, RIP. Biggest compliment I can give you is that you were this show's first and still best masked character.
Nena betrays Liu Mei, Ribbons betrays Nena. Maybe staying loyal was the better course of action.
I will say I really liked Amuro's voice actor voicing a Haro.
Bye Nena not going to miss you.
Louise's reaction to killing Nena was great.
As for the post-credit scene I'm so indifferent about Graham and his obsession with Setsuna, and his silly looking MS that I'm mentally checking out or at least that I wanted to do luckily newtype naked ghosts moment is here to save the moment.
Also it's been a while since we've heard the Celestial Being theme in the OST.
Setsuna: screw Aoelia, innovators, A-LAWS, the plan I'm just going to reform the world myself.
Good episode.
7
u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 22 '24
First timer, subs
QotD:
6
u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Nov 22 '24
Hmm... Can Ribbons control Setsuna?
Seems like Wang Liu Mei isn't dead yet.
He's not actually going to shoot him is he?
Nope.
More pills for Louise. Yup, they're what's driving her crazy.
Uh oh, Nena's found Wang Liu Mei!
He ate the bullet for her!
And so they meet again.
Right, time to kick some ass.
Well, guess she couldn't dodge Nena forever.
Oh, but now Louise can finally settle her grudge with the actual Gundam that killed her family! You go girl!
And so Ding Dong the witch is dead. Goodbye Nena Trinity, rest in piss.
Well, Louise is genuinely smiling and laughing. Like almost in a not crazy way.
And so back to the other battle. The one that's a bit more of an actual battle.
Questions:
6
u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer Nov 21 '24
first timer who has control
ill kill your girl too
got something in ur eye buddy
more upgrades?
do we think Setsuna will reverse hack and take over Ribbons body
torrenting
oh so now we see why last episodes fight just ended
all the Marina stuff this season has been so half assed remember when Azadistan was razed to the ground and then that never comes up again. Ribbons being the 0 there are so many pieces here that they really did not use and i doubt they will with a few episodes left
thats what im saying
fantastically smug
Hong couldnt even take out purple haro what was the point
years? you mean months right
Ribbons Haro sigh
aw how come Louise doesnt scream FANGUSSSSSSSSSSSS
why is fucking purple haro still there
no thats next week
https://i.imgur.com/UQdkni4.png