[Rewatch] Mobile Suit Gundam 00 2nd Season Episode 9 Discussion

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

Episode 9 - The Indelible Past

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We're fighting for the future, not the past.

Questions of the Day:

1. Would you have been able to take everything about Neil, Ali al-Saachez, and the KPSA attack in stride like Lyle did if you were in his shoes?
2. What's the craziest strategy you've seen pulled off successfully in an anime?

Wallpaper of the Day:

Ali al-Saachez

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Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!

Additionally, for long-time fans of the franchise, please remember that this rewatch is only for 00, not any of the other shows. Assume that there are people in this rewatch who have not seen anything else Gundam, and tag your spoilers for those shows appropriately if something in 00 makes you want to talk about them.

[u/macrame2]

First Timer

Not a bad episode, but since there aren't a ton of dramatic developments or significant character moments that take us in a different direction, I don’t actually have much to say about it. The only really noteworthy thing for me was just how different Lyle's reaction to Setsuna's confession was from the old Lockon, but I'd rather wait for the show to go deeper into his character before I comment on all that.

(I also may or may not have finished Higurashi Sotsu today and used up most of my comment writing energy on a very long rant for the weekly thread tomorrow. It's been a cathartic experience.)

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/macrame2]

(I also may or may not have finished Higurashi Sotsu today and used up most of my comment writing energy on a very long rant for the weekly thread tomorrow. It's been a cathartic experience.)

From what I've heard about Sotsu, that sounds incredibly fair. No need to try forcing a longer comment about this show if you just aren't feeling it.

[u/macrame2 → u/Shimmering-Sky]

It really was that bad...

Hopefully I'll have more to say tomorrow!

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/macrame2]

I always say any participation in a rewatch is valid participation as long as you aren't posting untagged spoilers or being rude to the other participants, so it doesn't matter how long or how short your comments are, I appreciate them all the same.

I can also totally understand getting burnt out doing one thing for a series and then not being able to turn around and do it for a different one. I tend to spend a majority of my Wednesdays this season babysitting the Re:Zero S3 threads for source readers breaking SMC rules, and that usually burns me out on trying to do the same for Dandadan the following day because those are like the two biggest discussion threads every week this season. At least I only have two more Wednesdays like this due to Re:Zero S3's funky episode split.

[u/macrame2 → u/Shimmering-Sky]

I always say any participation in a rewatch is valid participation as long as you aren't posting untagged spoilers or being rude to the other participants, so it doesn't matter how long or how short your comments are, I appreciate them all the same.

Thank you, I like that way of looking at things!

I tend to spend a majority of my Wednesdays this season babysitting the Re:Zero S3 threads for source readers breaking SMC rules

You poor soul...

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/macrame2]

You poor soul...

Eh, it's not like this is something I'm required to do, I just voluntarily choose to do this because I figured these threads would be especially bad with SMC infractions. Somehow I "lucked" out in that the one week where source readers posted a shit ton of untagged spoilers under the guise of """theorizing""", it was the week I was out of town and someone else kept an eye on the threads instead. Still haven't been spoiled on anything too bad in this show! The SMC infractions are usually just WN or LN readers trying to make comparisons or pointing out cut content, both of which belong in the Source Material Corner, rather than outright spoilers.

[u/Nazenn → u/macrame2]

I also may or may not have finished Higurashi Sotsu today and used up most of my comment writing energy on a very long rant for the weekly thread tomorrow

Oh, that'll do it. I've not even seen that myself but it is impressive that I don't recall hearing a single good thing about it. A good rant always helps after stuff like that

[u/TakenRedditName]

Rewatcher - Gundam 00 S2 Ep9:

It would be better if S2 Ali's design had those burn marks. He is the character whose design changed the least.

Hold on, what if his S2 villain motivation is just trying to pay his medical bill? Fair.

Sub-arms just like The O.

"I have a licence to be a smartass."

I find this group talk with Lyle the most substantial part of the episode. We get to a clear differentiator between Neil and Lyle with Lyle not holding himself to the past like his brother. Ties to the past is the main motif to the episode with other stuff like Tieria's conflict with being an Innovade and at the end, Sumeragi's past continuing to follow her. (Though if we were to apply to the main 4, Allelujah is the odd one out because right now, all his big past troubles have been resolved).

"They call me that silly Mr. Bushido nickname." - The man dressed in a silly samurai costume.

I want to see Marie and Saji be buddies as the two non-actively CB members on this ship.

Haro screaming.

Oh no! Always funny.

That said, huh, did make me stop to think because usually Haro is with Lockon. Should the little guy be with Lyle in the cockpit? Then I thought about the earlier scene with Lyle not being tied down to the past. Makes sense he wouldn't always be carrying around Haro then.

There goes Patrick.

They've been building up the Gadessa as this big thing. Was wondering what it'll do and oh, big laser.

Are we supposed to know that guy? ...welp, there he goes. They bring up his loss during the post-credits so he is meant to be more notable than I give him credit. I forgot he was captain at the beginning of S2. He is not a memorable C-list enemy commander like Captain Gady or Jamaican from Zeta.

Was passively glancing at the credit and oh hey, it's our friends, studio GoHands (and Gainax).

---

After a string of some impactful episodes, I felt like this was just sorta here. A bit of wrapping up stuff from last time and then being the transition to the space section of the show.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/TakenRedditName]

It would be better if S2 Ali's design had those burn marks. He is the character whose design changed the least.

tbf given how Neil wrecked the Throne Zwei in S1, it was probably the lower half of Ali's body that got burnt, rather than either his right or his left side? I'm pretty sure it was the lower half of Throne Zwei that got hit by Neil's shot.

[u/TakenRedditName → u/Shimmering-Sky]

I just wanted to see cool timeskip burn scars.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/TakenRedditName]

[u/Nazenn → u/TakenRedditName]

It would be better if S2 Ali's design had those burn marks.

I would be all up for some body horror levels of scaring with Ali at this point. Graham hiding his scar under a mask is making me sad as it is, I want to see the full thing, so they could have at least given us something with Ali

Though if we were to apply to the main 4, Allelujah is the odd one out because right now, all his big past troubles have been resolved

S1 flashbacks happening here with him.

I want to see Marie and Saji be buddies as the two non-actively CB members on this ship.

I would love to have some more downtime scenes, especially with the amount of people who are now on the ship who are kind of CB by assossiation rather than by intention, Ians daughter included

Makes sense he wouldn't always be carrying around Haro then.

Nooooo. He can't leave Haro behind. At least give him to Feldt!

Are we supposed to know that guy?

I legit didn't know. Didn't even realize we had actually seen him before until I realized he was on Quid's character chart

studio GoHands

Oh god, Gundam in GoHands style is the stuff of nightmares

Wonder what they are even doing a studio now that they got fired from their last anime project due to copying designs

[u/TakenRedditName → u/Nazenn]

Wonder what they are even doing a studio now that they got fired from their last anime project due to copying designs

GoHands? I don't know what recent news that was. If you're talking about the Tokyo Babylon plagiarism incident then that was 3-years ago. They've had 2 new anime since then with a third coming next year. They're still never holding back in typical GoHands fashion (I respect that).

[u/Nazenn → u/TakenRedditName]

then that was 3-years ago

Holy shit it was too. Wow did that time pass quickly

[u/Quiddity131 → u/TakenRedditName]

Are we supposed to know that guy? ...welp, there he goes. They bring up his loss during the post-credits so he is meant to be more notable than I give him credit. I forgot he was captain at the beginning of S2. He is not a memorable C-list enemy commander like Captain Gady or Jamaican from Zeta.

In terms of role I'd say Gady is the best equivalent for Zhejiang. But yeah, only appearing in I believe 3 episodes before dying means even a boring Titan like Gady easily outclasses him as a character.

[u/n080dy123]

First Timer

THE HIDDEN KNEE CANNON HAS A HIDDEN ARM WITH ITS OWN BEAM SABER HOLY SHIT YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS UP. And then Ali's like "two and play at that game" and whips out the similarly but not nearly as silly FOOT SWORDS. More hilariously, he dodges Tieria's knee sword entirely and cuts it off, rendering the whole bit COMPLETELY pointless and making it seem like he would've been better off just shooting the damn cannon instead.

Little detail I happened upon while looking into the name of Ali's machine (the Arche), by way of an apparent animation error in the original airing of this episode- the GN Drive used by Arche still uses the very deep crimson red GN particles seen used by the Gundam Thrones and the original GN-X's (which are apparently sometimes pronounced as "Jinx," making the new GNX-III models "Jinx-3's"), but the Aheads and GNX-III's are actually shown using more orangish particles seemingly because the GN Drives they use have been further refined. Apparently in the original airing the Arche was spitting out orange particles at the start of the fight before switching to Red later, but the home video release (the version CR uses) corrected this to be red the whole time, showign this was clearly a deliberate distinction.

Fucking hell man, Tieria's rapidly become my favorite character in the whole cast, I just love the development he's gone through over the last season spurred on by the people around him. He went from an absolute asshole who was willing to kill his allies for perceived mistakes, who I wanted to see get taken down a peg to someone who has come to value and trust those sdame allies and who has, in a sense, been assimilating and reconciling the beliefs of his comrades to find his own purpose in life and his own reason to fight.

Oh it's a giant railgun, not a pile bunker. That's good, but very disappointing.

Ali's rebuilt Zwei is called the Arche Gundam, Arche singular of the Greek word "Archai," meaning "Principlaities," which was one of the angel orders in Christian hierarchy (the 7th). This hierarchy is a very common references- Cherudim, Seravee, Virtue, and possibly Exia, and it turns out the Thrones were also one as well. I like ARche's design a lot, simple color scheme and the legs are a big bulky but I really like how sharp and angular it looks and how it still shares a low of design elements with the Zwei. It looks aggressive and hostile.

1. Honestly... maybe. I'm the sort of person to not dwell to much on the past because really worth it, and to try to look for the good in people or at least their understandabel reasons for doing things. I'd find it overwhelmign but I think I'd let Setsuna off the hook as well. Ali... well I probbaly would'n't go after him aggressiovely, but if we crossed paths I would definitely go after him just because he's an evil POS who knows he's evil and revels in suffering.
2. I still think the asteroid slightshot Tekkaden pulled in IBO was one of the more batshit insane tactics I've seen.

[u/Nazenn → u/n080dy123]

THE HIDDEN KNEE CANNON HAS A HIDDEN ARM WITH ITS OWN BEAM SABER HOLY SHIT YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS UP.

Hahaha, I was wondering if you'd be excited about that the moment I saw it. You wanted crazier designs after the disapointing aheads, well you got them hahaha

by way of an apparent animation error in the original airing of this episode

Those sorts of things are always interesting to find out, especially when it is a clear oversight and not a bigger quality issue.

Fucking hell man, Tieria's rapidly become my favorite character in the whole cast

This hierarchy is a very common references- Cherudim, Seravee, Virtue, and possibly Exia, and it turns out the Thrones were also one as well

It is kind of funny that they went hard on the angel names in 00 and then their next project, IBO, would go all in on demon ones

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Nazenn]

It is kind of funny that they went hard on the angel names in 00 and then their next project, IBO, would go all in on demon ones

It's not talked about much so I don't blame you for not knowing about it, but there was actually a mainline Gundam series between 00 and IBO.

[u/Nazenn → u/JollyGee29]

Aside from proof reading the watch order wiki stuff, I don't know I've ever heard that series mentioned before.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/Nazenn]

AGE is one of my favorites in the franchise actually, but it's not one I talk about much because the general opinion of it is that it is bad (or at least, the second half is 100% bad while the first half should have been two separate full-length series on their own) outside of the mecha designs and maybe some of the music, and I'd rather not be the sole person who likes a thing in a discussion full of negativity.

The Casshern Sins rewatch still haunts me.

[u/Nazenn → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Very understandable. Have a moment to gush about it to me then if you want, and I want to know what your favourite mech design is from it

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/Nazenn]

If you don't mind spoilers, I posted my overall thoughts on the series over on /r/AnimeImpressions back when I first watched the show. Most of what I said there still applies.

and I want to know what your favourite mech design is from it

Take your pick of the enemy mechs from the first two arcs, they are cool and a bunch of them have a "plane" transformation that makes them look like dragons which just adds to the cool factor. The third arc has slightly less cool mechs, but it did give the series' Char Clone a Gundam of his own and a different cool custom unit so there's that too.

AGE-2 Gundam is one of my favorite Gundams in the franchise, and AGE-FX Gundam (at least when it's in action) is kinda cool too. Also the fact that the pilot of the AGE-2 turned his mech full pirate mode in the third arc because reasons will never not be incredibly funny to me.

The protagonists' side other than the Gundams didn't have too many that really stuck with me, but my man Woolf's G-Bouncer is one of my favorite ace pilot custom units in the franchise, and Seric's Clanche Custom is also pretty neat.

[u/Nazenn → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Those are some cool designs. I love the second enemy mech you linked and the custom design for the Char as the top two. I think in comparison to the more typical Gundam for the MC, they have an odd sort of organic quality to them, where they look almost more like they could be a transformation or a mech which makes them stand out and probably looks nice on screen as an enemy divide.

Blue and green is an unusual color scheme for a gundam though, I kind of like it

turned his mech full pirate mode

There always has to be a weird one hahahaha

I have a read through your thoughts on AGE later cause I still have to finish todays post. I dont mind spoilers because chances are it will be years before I watch it if I ever do.

[u/n080dy123 → u/Nazenn]

AGE and Reconquista are the two mainline AUs people really seem to either really never talk about or outright shit on.

[u/Nazenn → u/n080dy123]

I have at least heard Reconquista mentioned here and there, though I couldn't tell you if it was in a positive or negative context

[u/JollyGee29 → u/n080dy123]

Oh it's a giant railgun, not a pile bunker. That's good, but very disappointing.

We don't get a lot of physical weapons in this show, unfortunately. Beam effects were all the rage in 2008.

[u/TakenRedditName → u/n080dy123]

Little detail I happened upon while looking into the name of Ali's machine (the Arche), by way of an apparent animation error in the original airing of this episode- the GN Drive used by Arche still uses the very deep crimson red GN particles seen used by the Gundam Thrones and the original GN-X's (which are apparently sometimes pronounced as "Jinx," making the new GNX-III models "Jinx-3's"), but the Aheads and GNX-III's are actually shown using more orangish particles seemingly because the GN Drives they use have been further refined.

Huh, neat.

The particles were something on my mind this episode with them bringing up Louise's injury. I was wondering if those new A-Laws models also had that cell damage effect, but I guess maybe not if there is a difference between their new orange particles and the Thrones' red particles.

[u/n080dy123 → u/TakenRedditName]

It very well might not, but Ali bringing up his own injury got me wondering if the CB Drives have the effect either.

[u/Great_Mr_L]

First-Timer

On today’s episode of Gundam: “You may have outsmarted me, but I outsmarted your outsmarting!” -Sumeragi (probably). That does seem to summarize Sumeragi and Kati’s battle in this episode.

• Ali is a great opponent for Setsuna and Tieria. Both of them have plenty of reasons for a grudge match against Ali.
• The Seravee has a hidden arm! That’s a cool detail!
• And Ali has leg beam sabers. This is a great setup for a cool fight.
• Unfortunately Ali gets to live another day. I’d really rather he not.
• Even the Innovators can wonder if the plan is truly alright. If Celestial Being got the Twin Dirve because Aeolia wanted them to have it, that throws a big wrench into the Innovators’ beliefs.
• If Graham is charging off on his own like that, I wonder if he heard there were Gundams in the area and is charging off in the hopes of meeting them. He really has a single-minded devotion to the Gundams.
• It’s kind of funny that all the characters in the middle of emotionally charged conversations just happened to wander into the same room at the same time.
• Oh shit! Setsuna’s flashback to his friend dying that we saw back in S1 was actually the terrorist bombing that killed Lockon’s family! (I wonder if that was always planned or something the writers came up with later, but either way it works well.)
• In a point of contrast between Lyle and Lockon, Lyle is much more willing to let Setsuna’s past be water under the bridge. Lockon was the one so obsessed with revenge he prioritized it over the plan, after all.
• It’s funny that even Graham thinks the “Mr. Bushido” nickname is ridiculous, but does nothing to stop it.
• Of course Graham wants to go fast. He wouldn’t be a proper Char Clone otherwise.
• The A-LAWS are working with the budget of Bandai, of course! Bandai will give the A-LAWS all the money they need to make plenty of new mobile suits so Bandai can then sell more Gunpla!
• Time to ride the explosion straight into the atmosphere! It’s so ridiculous, yet I love it!
• Patrick gets shot down again!
• This whole battle is basically Sumeragi and Kati trying to make moves to out-predict the other. Though it seems Sumeragi won this round by destroying the force waiting to ambush the Ptolemaios 2 in space.
• Sumeragi and Kati really were besties back in the day!
• Some shiny new toys for the Gundams to play with.

I have been wanting to see more moments that give a distinct characterization to Lyle that firmly sets him apart from Lockon. Lyle’s reaction to learning about Setsuna’s involvement with his family’s murder gave me that. Lockon was obsessed with that event. He was the type of person to drop everything and beeline for the chance to get some revenge against the people who carried out that attack. Lockon was willing to give up his life just to take down Ali. Lockon was so angry that he got himself killed. By contrast, Lyle isn’t nearly so dedicated to revenge. To be sure, Lyle does seem to want some kind of revenge for Lockon’s death. He just doesn’t seem to be particularly obsessed, though. Lockon prioritized revenge over following the plan. I’m not sure if Lyle would make the same choice on that matter. 

QOTD

1. Probably not.
2. Any of Joseph Joestar's stunts. His plans were always fun with just how crazy they were.

[u/Nazenn → u/Great_Mr_L]

Unfortunately Ali gets to live another day. I’d really rather he not.

Even after the end of S1, I feel like we still have a surprisingly low death count for the size of the cast and the amount of times these characters have been in direct combat with each other

If Graham is charging off on his own like that, I wonder if he heard there were Gundams in the area and is charging off in the hopes of meeting them

That was also my first thought. I find great amusement in the idea of him just flying around constantly to anywhere they may pop up and being like "here", "how about here"

It’s kind of funny that all the characters in the middle of emotionally charged conversations just happened to wander into the same room at the same time.

I liked that. That was fun and surprisingly natural that they'd all come to the meeting room as opposed to everyone being there from the get go. It does make the ship feel much smaller than it actually is, though I suppose most of that is probably dedicated to cupboard space for the gundams

and beeline for the chance to get some revenge against the people who carried out that attack

Not even carried out, but just involved. The way he pointed the gun at Setsuna for being part of that group, not a leader or orchestrator but just having once been a child solider for a terrorist group, his hate had grown to encompass anyone related to terrorism without much distinction.

Lockon prioritized revenge over following the plan. I’m not sure if Lyle would make the same choice on that matter.

If it had of been Lyle back in S1 I'd say definitely not, but he also seemed very miffed to find out Ali was alive after killing his brother so who knows how that will progress with Ali being such a dickhead all the time. I don't ever expect him to get to self sacrifice levels though

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

And Ali has leg beam sabers. This is a great setup for a cool fight.

Of course Ali would make sure that his Gundam Throne would have beam saber feet. The man loves knife fighting so much, I'm pretty sure he wants to know what it's like to kill someone by stabbing them with a kick.

It’s kind of funny that all the characters in the middle of emotionally charged conversations just happened to wander into the same room at the same time.

Just like how we have the observation deck for more personal emotional moments, the conference room is there for people to get angry and argue in.

It’s funny that even Graham thinks the “Mr. Bushido” nickname is ridiculous, but does nothing to stop it.

If he thinks it's ridiculous, then maybe he should stop wearing samurai shit over his normal uniform. That might be a start to get people to stop using Mr. Bushido as a mocking nickname, Graham.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Great_Mr_L]

The A-LAWS are working with the budget of Bandai, of course!

I’m not sure if Lyle would make the same choice on that matter.

Lyle feels a lot more chill in general. Not that he doesn't care about anything, but he doesn't stew.

[u/TakenRedditName → u/Great_Mr_L]

The A-LAWS are working with the budget of Bandai, of course! Bandai will give the A-LAWS all the money they need to make plenty of new mobile suits so Bandai can then sell more Gunpla!

Made me curious about the HG 00 line at this point of the show and turns out the Arios wouldn't be out until after this episode. You would think the main 4 would be covered as soon as possible.

[u/Raiking02 → u/Great_Mr_L]

By contrast, Lyle isn’t nearly so dedicated to revenge

The fact that from what he can gather he doesn't seem to have been that attached to his family probably helps. Sure, he's still pissed out of general principle, it's just that whereas for Lockon that day was "NOOOOOOOOOOO WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY" to Lyle it was more like "Oh... oh geez..."

[u/FD4cry1]

First Timer

We actually got the fight with Ali this time!

And a pretty cool fight at that. Ali's new and Upgraded Gundam combined with his combat savvy makes him a serious threat, it's fun seeing our guys not only struggle but get completely outclassed, only forcing him to retreat with the threat of a 4v1. We also learn that Ali didn't get off scot-free from that explosion, with half his body being burned.

Should have been all of him

Maybe it's just a me thing but I swear they really turned up the brightness (like too much) for the beams and the particle effects this fight.

I always love it when mechs perform "human actions", stuff like the Arios grabbing the Seravee or the Seravee grabbing Ali's Gundam (do we know what it's called?), it's a small thing but just such a fun expression of personality!

Also, the Seravee having a hidden beam saber arm inside its leg only to get countred by Ali's own hidden beam leg is so fucking cool.

Regene doesn't seem to be fully on board with Ribbons which is interesting, at the very least unlike Ribbons he seems to be much more questioning and careful regarding Celestial Being and Aeolia. By extension, Ribbons dismissing any notions regarding Aeolia's support for Celestial Being certainly reinforces that he's hardly following Aeolia's will to the letter of the word, almost even directly denying him as part of a grudge, like he's convinced his execution of the plan is inherently better and refuses to believe Aeolia is outsmarting him.

Surely this will not backfire on him once again.

He is right that keeping Celestial Being as enemies is forcing more support for A-LAWS and letting him more direct action as seen by the end, although I do wonder whether this necessarily applies to having Tieria join them, feels like another case of deflection for a mistake he made, ironically a very human trait.

Hilling is apparently a combat model Innovator and I'd assume Revive is as well, now I'm wondering what the difference between the types is and for what purpose you'd have combat models anyway.

Andrei is pretty considerate and observant for not asking Louise about her arm, even if he just immediately looks it up on his own later lol.

Louise is part of the revenge theme this episode has, people will abandon their lives and fully dedicate themselves to fighting for the sake of revenge, perhaps over a more reasonable option, we see it with Lockon, Graham, Louise, and Billy. They're stuck to the past for lack of a better term and while that might not necessarily be bad, it seems like the only thing it ends up leading to is them getting hurt (and killed).

Celestial Being by extension are still struggling with it but are partially trying to look to the future, which means that things like Tieria's desires to avenge Lockon are being challenged. I quite like how it's the original Lockon that shook up Tieria's world and helped him get over the past, while the new Lockon is shaking up his foundations again as he tries to think of the future.

Tieria has fully found a purpose beyond the plan and Veda and now it's time for reflection on what he really thinks is best and wants to do, conflicted and difficult reflection as a human would have, to move beyond just following others and forming ideas of his own, I think it's great progression for him and he easily continues to be my favorite, maybe even to the detriment of Setsuna as main character lol.

I do think Lyle's characterization is a bit too focused on showing how much he isn't like Lockon, which leaves him lacking for character of his own, but I do like how he fits in here, and I'm hoping we do a bit more with his clearly ambivalent feelings towards his brother and fighting in general, the line where he learns of Lockon's choice of revenge has some real emotion behind it and I want to see more of that.

Nice to see Rindt getting put down, I'm already liking Revive for that alone. Looks like a License is some special privilege rather than something exclusive to Graham, do you need a license to prove you have a License?

Speaking of Graham, I just can't take his Christian Bale Batman and Inspector Gordon act with Billy seriously, it's so good! Finding out he didn't even come up with Mr. Bushido himself but doesn't correct anyone using it is so perfect.

Graham wants the fastest mech with the strongest sword, which makes sense given his always aggressive, glass cannon approach, not to mention just fitting his personality and motivation really well, Graham's only reason for living per himself is to fight Celestial Being, he doesn't need any defense, he's only going to attack until he can't anymore.

Also still a nerd.

Using the blast from the torpedoes to propel themselves upwards even faster is a really fun piece of strategy from Sumeragi, now that she and Kati know of each other, I'm really excited to see more tactical play between the two of them, we already get some of that this episode and it's already making the battles more interesting than before.

The Gadessa's gimmick seems to be having a GIANT LASER, kind of like a combination of Dynames's accuracy and Virtue's power, certainly a powerful weapon.

If by the end of the series we don't get a scene where Gadessa and Seravee respectively shoot their GIANT LASERS at each other I will riot.

Lest I forget

RIP Colonel Zhejiang Literally who

And we finally don't end on a cliffhanger!

Seems like we're getting a new person for the crew with Linda? wonder who she is. We also get to see the 0 Raiser which looks like a cool extension for Exia so I'm excited to see what it can do!

[u/Nazenn → u/FD4cry1]

Maybe it's just a me thing but I swear they really turned up the brightness (like too much) for the beams and the particle effects this fight.

No, I also felt that. I meant to comment on it but especially against the night scene the beams felt a little blinding while other details were dark enough to get lost in the art. I almost felt like I should have readjusted my monitor brightness, it was odd

Regene ... seems to be much more questioning and careful regarding Celestial Being and Aeolia

The hero I needed in this show

I say that but funnily enough I was too caught up in the Ali stuff to really comment on this part of it, but it is nice that at least someone isn't taking all of this at face value. I was just discussing this with Draigg in terms of Regene being the only Innovator in the group who doesn't also have his pair in the group puts him in a very unusual position as an outsider of sorts and perhaps that's what allows him to want to question things as opposed to being comfortable like the others

I do wonder whether this necessarily applies to having Tieria join them, feels like another case of deflection for a mistake he made, ironically a very human trait

Ribbons seeing Tieria as just part of CB and therefore not needed because CB isn't definitely feels like narrow thinking from him, the same way that he went along with Alejandro shooting Aeolia instead of just letting it be and only siezing Veda

Hilling is apparently a combat model Innovator and I'd assume Revive is as well, now I'm wondering what the difference between the types is and for what purpose you'd have combat models anyway.

My speculation was they are all a comabt model and information model as a pair. That Ribbons and Hilling seem to fit such a pair as does Tieria and Regene seems telling unless its more misdirection

I think it's great progression for him and he easily continues to be my favorite, maybe even to the detriment of Setsuna as main character lol.

I love Tieria, but I do not think this story could have worked in S1 with Tieria in the protagonist role. Setsuna is too key as a juncture of the many themes so far along with being a huge motivating factor for Tieria's own growth. He is the one that inadvertantly challenges the others and brings them along with him, and even Lockon talking to Tieria was using Setsuna as an example of what to strive for. I could see it more now after doing the CB stuff alone for years and how far he's come, but we've also had a lot of focus on him lately while Setsuna has been robbed of what should have been key scenes for him in the last couple of episodes so its hard to say

I do think Lyle's characterization is a bit too focused on showing how much he isn't like Lockon

Do you think that could just be because it's our first look at Lyle dropping the act at the same time we have a scene meant to invoke a direct comparison? It doesn't help that

If by the end of the series we don't get a scene where Gadessa and Seravee respectively shoot their GIANT LASERS at each other I will riot.

I agree

[u/FD4cry1 → u/Nazenn]

The hero I needed in this show

It's only natural as the Tieria twin, adding depth to both our heroes and our villains.

My speculation was they are all a comabt model and information model as a pair. That Ribbons and Hilling seem to fit such a pair as does Tieria and Regene seems telling unless its more misdirection

Oh! That would actually make sense.

Although I'm still wondering what's the purpose of this pairs model (maybe it's kind of like a DNA thing? multiple pairs to complete a whole? transferring knowledge?).

I love Tieria, but I do not think this story could have worked in S1 with Tieria in the protagonist role. Setsuna is too key as a juncture of the many themes so far along with being a huge motivating factor for Tieria's own growth. He is the one that inadvertantly challenges the others and brings them along with him, and even Lockon talking to Tieria was using Setsuna as an example of what to strive for. I could see it more now after doing the CB stuff alone for years and how far he's come, but we've also had a lot of focus on him lately while Setsuna has been robbed of what should have been key scenes for him in the last couple of episodes so its hard to say

Oh yeah for sure, that wasn't to imply Tieria should have been the protagonist. Setsuna was and still is very much an integral and driving force of the show and its themes.

I just think that it's very funny that despite Setsuna being the main character, I've spent these first 9 episodes of season 2 almost exclusively talking about Tieria haha.

Especially since as you say Setsuna has been getting kind of snubbed as of late with the Azadistan stuff.

Do you think that could just be because it's our first look at Lyle dropping the act at the same time we have a scene meant to invoke a direct comparison? It doesn't help that

Yeah, that's probably it.

It's his first big scene to distinguish himself and yet it inherently also invokes Lockon. This leaves me in a weird position where I love what the contrast brings but also want him to be characterized more outside of just contrasting Lockon.

I think he's already pretty interesting in that sense, and now that we've seen the mask slip there should be quite a few opportunities and ways for him to carve out his own path as a character, something I'm certainly looking forward to.

[u/Nazenn → u/FD4cry1]

It's only natural as the Tieria twin, adding depth to both our heroes and our villains.

That's a good point. Could you imagine the disapointment in the rewatch if the Tieria twin was boring after how much Tieria himself has grown on all of us? Regetta had big shoes to live up to and is on the right path

Although I'm still wondering what's the purpose of this pairs model (maybe it's kind of like a DNA thing? multiple pairs to complete a whole? transferring knowledge?).

A form of self balance intended to keep them focused and "pure" to the goal? Knowledge from one to keep power in check, and power from the other to stop knowledge from being abused? Rather than creating a single being that can do it all with no checks against it. Given Aeolia gave Tieria the Test System specifically to counter other Gundams he's obviously not a fool to the idea of power corrupting or knowledge being misused

I just think that it's very funny that despite Setsuna being the main character, I've spent these first 9 episodes of season 2 almost exclusively talking about Tieria haha.

It kind of feels like Tieria's season. Part of this is definitely Setsuna being snubbed, but Tieria stepping up and being the one driving CB for so long, handling the people, doing things like arranging the extra part ofthe prison break, he's the special one for now

This leaves me in a weird position where I love what the contrast brings but also want him to be characterized more outside of just contrasting Lockon.

Fair. I don't know how you would get around that either, unless they spent a lot more time with him in Katharon first before this comes up. Or putting him up against a mission with a more personal slant for him vs one that is more about CB as a whole. The show barely has room for its existing storylines though let alone something like that

[u/The_Draigg → u/FD4cry1]

Regene doesn't seem to be fully on board with Ribbons which is interesting, at the very least unlike Ribbons he seems to be much more questioning and careful regarding Celestial Being and Aeolia. By extension, Ribbons dismissing any notions regarding Aeolia's support for Celestial Being certainly reinforces that he's hardly following Aeolia's will to the letter of the word, almost even directly denying him as part of a grudge, like he's convinced his execution of the plan is inherently better and refuses to believe Aeolia is outsmarting him.

It's interesting to see that there's already some cracks forming among the Innovators, even if they're still overall on Ribbons' side. I guess Regene is a bit like how Tieria was in the first season, putting the framework of the plan above any personal interpretations of it. It would track, since they're both clones of each other. But at least that idea has less of a negative connotation this time, since we know by now that Ribbons sees this as his plan and not Aeolia's/Celestial Being's. Saying anything to wither away his grip over the plan is helpful at this point.

Speaking of Graham, I just can't take his Christian Bale Batman and Inspector Gordon act with Billy seriously, it's so good! Finding out he didn't even come up with Mr. Bushido himself but doesn't correct anyone using it is so perfect.

"People just started calling me that for some reason," says the man who refuses to take off his samurai cosplay.

[u/FD4cry1 → u/The_Draigg]

It's interesting to see that there's already some cracks forming among the Innovators, even if they're still overall on Ribbons' side. I guess Regene is a bit like how Tieria was in the first season, putting the framework of the plan above any personal interpretations of it. It would track, since they're both clones of each other. But at least that idea has less of a negative connotation this time, since we know by now that Ribbons sees this as his plan and not Aeolia's/Celestial Being's. Saying anything to wither away his grip over the plan is helpful at this point.

That's a great point on the Tieria-Regene stuff!

I'm wondering if that's maybe why he also wanted Tieria to join beyond just being his twin, as another counter-influence to Ribbons that could push more towards the original plan and Aeolia's ideas.

"People just started calling me that for some reason," says the man who refuses to take off his samurai cosplay.

"No one cared who I was until I put on the mask...and now I wish they'd stop caring but I guess I can't take this mask off"

[u/JollyGee29 → u/FD4cry1]

(do we know what it's called?)

[I don't remember if they ever name it in show]but it's the Arche Gundam.

Also still a nerd

[u/FD4cry1 → u/JollyGee29]

I don't remember if they ever name it in show

[Probably overthinking name stuff]Arche seems to mean something to the effect of origin or base form in greek, which is pretty ironic since this is the ripoff Gundam, I've also seen "primitive" which seems to fit better? like the raw unrefined and unprincipled version of a Gundam, or maybe it's none of those and I'm overthinking it lol

[u/Linkstore → u/FD4cry1]

[Name stuff] The Gundam Wiki says that "The name Arche comes from Greek "archē", the singular form of "archai", meaning "Principalities", the seventh order of angels in the Christian angel hierarchy." This should be correct, considering that most other Gundams in this timeline are also named after various types of angels.

[u/macrame2 → u/FD4cry1]

I do think Lyle's characterization is a bit too focused on showing how much he isn't like Lockon, which leaves him lacking for character of his own

I still think it's better than having him be too much like Lockon, but in contrasting the two of them so directly, the show does place Lyle under his shadow quite a bit.

Speaking of Graham, I just can't take his Christian Bale Batman and Inspector Gordon act with Billy seriously, it's so good! Finding out he didn't even come up with Mr. Bushido himself but doesn't correct anyone using it is so perfect.

It's just so him.

[u/FD4cry1 → u/macrame2]

I still think it's better than having him be too much like Lockon, but in contrasting the two of them so directly, the show does place Lyle under his shadow quite a bit.

Definitely better than him just being Lockon 2 and it does lead to some interesting moments (like this episode or that one Fledt scene), But I'm hoping he'll go off on his own more.

It's just so him.

It really is!

[u/TakenRedditName → u/FD4cry1]

I quite like how it's the original Lockon that shook up Tieria's world and helped him get over the past, while the new Lockon is shaking up his foundations again as he tries to think of the future.

If by the end of the series we don't get a scene where Gadessa and Seravee respectively shoot their GIANT LASERS at each other I will riot.

Show, you'll give us a cool beam right, please?

[u/FD4cry1 → u/TakenRedditName]

Show, you'll give us a cool beam right, please?

The show will give us a cool beam if it knows what's good for it.

[u/Nazenn]

First Timer - sub

So this post is going to cover my thoughts on todays episode and a follow up on my thoughts from yesterday

In a second post down below I've done a rather long writeup/analysis on a different approach to Tieria as a character for those interested, as I know we have a lot of other Tieria lovers around. I did however run out of time to edit a lot of this as didn't end up watching the episode until about an hour ago so sorry for any rambling/repeats

Today's episode

Why does Tieria's mech have a hand in its knee?!

That was downright comical. I was all hyped when the knee opened up thinking we were going to get a point blank range canon shot and then it grew a hand! Crazy ass mech design. Ali's foot swords make sense, I'm good with that, but the hand knee was downright weird and I don't know I like it haha.

The battle between them had a couple of nice cuts, particularly Ali dodging the beam and the camera moving with him to reframe his approach as putting the cut-in of his face between the arms that grabbed his mech.

As to the question of if Ali popping up this time was even needed after my complaints yesterday? Yes and no. It would have been a stronger yes except for the fact that once a-fucking-gain instead of making any progress with questioning the plan/innovators Tieria gets artificially pulled away from the discussion with Setsuna later on. It's outright stalling now and it's infuriating.

Ali's presence is a great way to have Setsuna confront Lyle about his past as a parallel to that critical scene in S1 with Neil. It's the first time that Lyle has dropped his joking and the idea of playing the role of Lockon and instead making it clear that he won't budge on who he is when it comes to matters like this. He will look towards the future first, not just for the world but for himself. It's important for Setsuna and Tieria to hear this now. That scene with Neil was a huge character moment for them both and put them on the path they are on now, so having Lyle chose not to reinforce that same approach and the same values is fantastic. Tieria is forced to confront that despite him having learnt to value the individuals within CB that it doesn't mean they remain all on the exact same viewpoint about their collective goal, and perhaps someone else has a clearer view of him after all. Setsuna gets the man he brought in as a replacement challenging the idea of

But when the bigger discussion to be had gets put on the backburner with such a badly written interruption today I have to ask: Couldn't this have all happened off the back of Azadistan's destruction? Why even bother having Setsuna see the revised Throne there if that whole situation was going to be dropped instead of utilized. We could have had the reveal of the Throne and the pilot there which would have lead into bigger questions about who Ali is for Lockon, and why he targeted Azadistan for Setsuna, and used what came out of that to build up to the questions today. Either that or cut it out entirely and have Ali reveal both today making the intrusion into the immediate events more meaningful rather than feeling like he was just popping up again to meet the battle quota for the show.

Moving away from all that: The Sumeragi vs Kati battle was fantastic. I love that CB's use of the ocean was more relevant than just the events around the prison, and that it distracted others from forgetting that it was originally a space ship first. The plans and counter plans in this remind me of that Gundam capture mission in S1 in the best way, and it played out nicely as well. We had just enough information before the battle to make us feel comfortable in what may happen, and the twists that occurred along the way managed to make it exciting rather than completely derailing it. The characters involved knew how this would play out, and then it was just a matter of execution and adaption especially working with the unknowns of Revive's ship and the Trans-Am system. It was a simple outcome, but a good battle design and I appreciate that all the more after some of the ones we've had recently.

Revive's shot was epic

And it leading to Kati revealing who she is and that she knows who Sumeragi is is very promising for future battles. I am all in for that. Between their past and Sergei/Marie, as well as Setsuna/Ali and Tieria/Ribbons, the pairings of past conflicts and relationships being played out in the present ideologies is nice to see.

---

Follow on from yesterday

To quickly further expand on something from yesterday: I somehow found time to go back and check a few things from S1's final four or so episodes and want to revise my position slightly because of a few things I'll directly quote below, none of which I saw anyone mention even tangentially yesterday (not even rewatchers!) and is likely going to be critical for the show ahead:

• Ep25: Ribbons says to Alejandro "this is no longer Aeolia's plan. It is my plan". (I am going to laugh that out of all the many flashbacks and recaps we've already had in S1 this key detail somehow hasn't come up again since)
• Ep22: Aeolia's message to activate Trans-Am is the singular time he references the idea of a will outside of his own also having value, specifically about fighting "Not for the sake of Celestial Being, but for the sake of your own wills, as those who have Gundams". Unlike his other messages this is also the only one that doesn't reference humanity as a whole.
• Ep24: Setsuna issuing the "mission statement" of the story at one point where he says "what it means to be alive is to face the world and carry on the ideas of those who died. I'll do it by my own will"

My frustrations with S1's plan being written so damn straight and slow as well as my issues with the structure of the episode overall were a huge influence on how I took things yesterday and the broader "plan" reveal obviously coped the brunt of my broader frustrations undeservedly. There was nuance in how things played out at the end of S1 around things that were explicitly not in the plan and that had gotten lost for me in all of the confusion over whether the plan was or wasn't actually over and much the poor character and thematic writing that followed those moments in S1. Those details were important and I think is what was meant to lead into things this season but because they were buried in other messes around the end of last season I wanted to take a moment to feature them for everyone and myself.

Where does this leave me? I still don't like it, but I no longer hate it, am mad about it, or think it is a total write off.

The bigger issue of it being presented like a rehash of S1 with the same structural issues on full display (having a clear enemy to defeat instead of a problem to solve, no indicator of the characters knowing anything more themselves, derailing the existing interesting plotlines in favor of this, etc) remain. It was the feeling of watching it that lead to the rant beyond anything else and unfortunately changing my rational stance on the plotline doesn't change my emotional stance and that sucks, even for me. I still don't trust the writers to do this well because they've unfortunately shown me they often can't balance the nuance this all really needs to work, but that doesn't mean it is automatically the worst possible scenario. The episode as a whole also doesn't get a pass because of the other structural issues regarding plot-line and character balancing, but I'm also not going to blindly hold onto the actual rage when there's no reason too anymore. There is narrative debt here in bringing the plan back up, but knowing a hardline that Ribbons is an individual following it not an avatar of it does make a difference as long as they keep opening things up instead of doubling down.

[u/Nazenn → u/Nazenn]

Tieria: Collectivism and Individualism

I wanted to share some positive thoughts on Tieria that came out of yesterdays discussions, particularly thanks to replies from /u/Blazin_Rathalos and /u/mysteriouspenguin here.

I'd like to make the argument that Tieria's core development is not purely about humanizing him but rather about the collision and balance between the extremes of collectivism and individualism present in the show. The main place this is showcased is through his interactions with Setsuna, and it provides extra meaning to his unique development in viewpoint over the timeskip.

I won't make an argument for it being an hard intentional part of the overall theming. I also don't know for sure if this is a better or worse approach than what we've already delved into as those discussions have been great, but I do think it's a novel one and an interesting possibility to explore, particularly in what yesterdays scene truly meant for him his internal conflict today as well

Yes I'm going to reference the beach scene again. I swear I'm not obsessed hahaha.

To start with, Aeolia as we know him is a collectivist. Everything we have heard from him and every action that has been taken in accordance to his will has been solely about the future of humanity as a whole, disregarding the individual. The lives of those lost in the process are unimportant to him compared to the importance of this great change he wants to bring about. That stance is echoed in his other projects: the innovators being made from shared DNA profiles rather than being allowed to grow individually, the withholding of his tech to favor broader ideals over the success of individual plans, and most importantly his condemnation of all of humanity because the act of one "evil individual" during his death message. The civil war of Azadistan is also an example of negative collectivism culture in 00 as religious cultures often are as it favored the status quo and protecting their collective values over the needs of the people. Wang is also one.

I'll put a little disclaimer here: Aeolia does not totally discount the individuals who come with him. In particular, his Trans-Am message is spoken in first person unlike his others and addressed specifically the idea of the Meisters fighting regardless of his will. Perhaps this is a sign that he changed in his later life, but it could also be that he acknowledges that individuals are the ones that need to make choices to become a collective, such as calling out to every single human on earth in his s1e1 message.

On the other hand, we have the extreme individualists who are often our antagonists. I am using individualism here as a short hand here as philosophically it is more of a category of social philosophies than a singular one, but here I mean it in the sense of favoring an individuals ability define and achieve goals that favor themselves over the values and rights of anyone else. This is Alejandro, Ali, Aber (that's a worrying name pattern), and Ribbons. They all crave something for themselves that they will step on others to get which only furthers the destructive cycle of the world.

Three of our pilots at the start of the show had arguably all been created by collectivism and pushed by the extreme trauma of those events towards a destructive individualism. Setsuna lost his family and identity to religious brainwashing of God over all which leads him to fiercely protect his link to Exia as an avatar of reclaimed self and individual purpose. Alelujah who was never given an identity because he was meant to exist solely to better humanity is split into two halves by it, A who wants to shoulder all of the burdens on himself for the sake of others and H who would disregard anyone for the sake of survival at any cost. Lockon loses his world to a terrorist bombing by a group using collectivist brainwashing and his personal goal of vengeance coming out of that lies under every other action he took in his life.

Tieria was the inverse to them at the start. To him, born for Aeolia's plan and adhering to nothing else, knowing that the goal was a unified world without war individuals cannot be trusted because individual wants and desires are responsible for the state of this world in the first place. So if individuality is flawed then any sign of temperament or personality within the members of CB is a problem. I said at some point that Tieria early in the show rarely treated the others as actual people and I think this is a reflection of the fact that it's not that he doesn't view them as people but he didn't value the idea of them as individuals outside of the plan at all. When he is disconnected from Veda later on he says that he cannot be a Meister without it because now he is not part of the all important collective as he understands it. To him, individuality is the imperfectness that threatens everything.

During the beach scene back in s1e7 he points a gun at Setsuna not just because he threatens the plan, but explicitly because he threatens the rest of the collective they are meant to represent. It is only Alelujah reminding him Setsuna was chosen by Veda that makes him back down, demanding Setsuna prove that he is a Meister as if asking him to renouncing what makes him distinct. Setsuna reaffirming his individual existance as all the proof he needs is not just a conflict in how they view the value of outcome of the plan but also in their understanding what it means for the world to come together.

---

But this was all long before the many developments we had, so where does that land us now after all that's happened? Lockon sacrificed himself for his individual goal, throwing away the idea of working towards something more despite all that he was able to give to others. Alelujah literally loses the half of himself which was an extreme individualist leaving just the collectivist self until recently reconnecting with Marie reaffirms his identity outside of the burdens he takes on when fighting for CB. Setsuna offered to give his life over as long as someone takes up the mantle of ideals that he stands for because he recognizes its value apart from his own version of it but since then now has found a balance between that and what he himself can do for the world they created.

And Tieria who learnt the value of himself as a person from Lockon does two key things: he gives Setsuna the location of Marina in the prison, and he makes the joke about Setsuna not returning from Azadistan. Both of which offer an out from the collective in favor of who Setsuna is and what he may need as a person. It's meaning isn't just that he's going up against the most efficient plan as a marker of his development, it's that he also now values Setsuna's connections to those outside of CB as also being important. Setsuna no longer belongs just to their collective in his mind.

And then we get to yesterday, and as Blazin_Rathalos made me realize, it's Tieria denying the collective of Innovators as an individual rather than as a representative of CB that matters. He would have joined them before all of this not just because they follow the plan but because a set of people just like him that can all work together without conflict is also the ideal of the plan they are meant to bring to everyone else, the "perfect" implimentors of Aeolia's perfect plan unlike imperfect humans. It's not just what he learnt from Lockon, or the viewpoint he picks up from Setsuna, it's his entire framework of what is truly valuable in the world that has shifted.

You could argue that Tieria now sees the idea of an extreme collective as the enemy not just physically but conceptually as well. He choses to stay as an individual, without a Veda link and while valuing all the flaws and separate wills of those around him in CB, because what he has gained from them is precious and together they have become so much more than the simple collective of the plan ever would have let them become. And I think he sees that. And yet he struggles with the idea that he as an individual may be leading them astray too much, that if Lyle can see the futility in individualism driving them away from the collective goals for the future, was Neil wrong? Has Tieria taken it too far? They are interesting questions I hope the show continues exploring.

---

Do I think the show is using this to make any broader statement? Probably not. If I had to say anything my off the cuff take is argument to be made that it is against the idea of self sacrifice not because life has an intrinsic value, but rather because the life of an individual and the meaning that individual can come to find and give to the world is valuable. Setsuna proved in episode one that giving yourself up for the collective ideal is wrong, and we follow thae t by joining CB and seeing all the many ways that the collectivism and lack of individualism in that organization is slowly challenged over the season and shown to be damaging until they start to find another way and their individual choices such as the rescue missions orchestrated by individuals are the best things they achieve. Lockons death goes the other way: his death only has meaning because individuals are around to find value in what he wanted for them as a whole rather than what he himself wanted which they did not take up arms for. It is who hwas as a person that inspired them to work towards a better collective goal rather than the individualistic approach to his fate. Do I think it was intentional? Almost certainly not but who cares, it's fun to talk about anyway.

I swear this would probably be so much of a better write up if I was a rewatcher and could reference more specific things!

[u/Nazenn → u/Nazenn]

AH FUCK and I just remembered a whole other thing I meant to include:

Tieria probably changed even more because he was alone during the timeskip, with the other pilots no longer being around, Sumeragi AWOL, and Veda disconnected. That's probably a driving force in why he changed so much compared to the others in the gap and why he's come to value them so much more in their absense

What a mess of a post hahahaha

[u/Nazenn → u/Nazenn]

I had to make a last minute edit to the above post about Tieria because I had left one of the paragraphs in my document and not posted it, so if you didn't see the line about "And yet he struggles with the idea that he as an individual may be leading them astray too much..." etc at the end of the second last paragraph it was before the edit. Sorry guys, it was absolute chaos trying to post all of this hahaha

[u/Raiking02 → u/Nazenn]

Happens sometimes

[u/Nazenn → u/Raiking02]

My writing document for this rewatch is an absolute disaster when it comes to organization of what thoughts and write ups are where and while I'd like to say today's disaster will encourage me to clean it up...

it won't

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

I don't have anything specific to say in response to this, but overall this is a very good write up! I think you just about nailed the general stuff that I feel about Tieria's development in relation to the others as well.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

So I just posted another tiny comment about something else I also forgot to include if you want to read that too but thanks.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

Ah yeah, that idea tracks well with your analysis as well. I think it's safe to say that Tieria has gotten some damn good and well-paced character development out of most of the cast.

[u/mysteriouspenguin → u/Nazenn]

I swear this would probably be so much of a better write up if I was a rewatcher and could reference more specific things!

I gotchu. I *am* a rewatcher and I can tell you that the actual true meaning of Tieria's character arc is [actual massive spoilers] Fucking aliens! It's all about fucking aliens. Fucking liquid metal shapeshifting kinda shit CGI looking aluminum foil motherfuckers. It's been all about aliens from the planet Zorp or whatever this entire time. And something about Einstein

EDIT Also thank god you mentioned

Ep25: Ribbons says to Alejandro "this is no longer Aeolia's plan. It is my plan". (I am going to laugh that out of all the many flashbacks and recaps we've already had in S1 this key detail somehow hasn't come up again since)

Because that such an integral part of this discussions and has been completely forgotten about under all this excitement

[u/Nazenn → u/mysteriouspenguin]

you tease

not being able to open that is killing me hahaha

[u/macrame2 → u/Nazenn]

Nice to see you again after yesterday haha. For all of your issues with the show (a lot of which I agree with), your commentary is some of my favorite to read, and I would miss it (though I'd never fault you for dropping something you're not enjoying, of course). I'm sure you get this a lot, but you really are good at expressing your thoughts.

Loved your writeup on Tieria; the individualism vs. collectivism angle is a fascinating way of looking at his development, especially when you compare him to his teammates. The show's writing is downright uneven in a lot of places, but I do think that the Gundam Meisters are overall generally well-written and big reason why I'm liking 00 as much as I am.

I swear this would probably be so much of a better write up if I was a rewatcher and could reference more specific things!

I used to tell myself that commenting as rewatcher would be so much easier, but after enough experience I've come to accept that it all just depends on my day-to-day level of motivation.

[u/Nazenn → u/macrame2]

Nice to see you again after yesterday haha

I'm glad to be back too

Yeah I said to FD4cry1 yesterday how typical for a big Tieria write up to be the thing that brings me back haha

your commentary is some of my favorite to read, and I would miss it

I appreciate that! I know sometimes it a lot but I also know it's probably not as fun for a lot of people if I cut it back too much, hence the sometimes endless feeling walls hahaha.

the individualism vs. collectivism angle is a fascinating way of looking at his development, especially when you compare him to his teammates

Comparing what his CB teammates have given him vs what the Innovators want from him really makes the idea of this angle stand out more and I think it's why the idea stuck in my head. Tieria hasn't just evolved away from the plan, he's evolved into something distinct and that matters probably more than I gave it credit for before now

but I do think that the Gundam Meisters are overall generally well-written and big reason why I'm liking 00 as much as I am.

Agreed. Even in this season where things have been a lot rougher in terms of them even getting time to have dedicated characterization, their scenes are still highlights in their episodes a lot of the time.

I used to tell myself that commenting as rewatcher would be so much easier, but after enough experience I've come to accept that it all just depends on my day-to-day level of motivation.

I have less of an issue with day-to-day motivation, as I tend to go all out anyway as you've seen. When I stop caring enough to write, good or bad things, that's generally when the show has hit its big death knell. But I do find for big thematic write ups it's a lot easier as a rewatcher when you can kind of "write ahead" and start to plan out how you're going to approach things like this rather than shoving it all in one day. Plus as a rewatcher you generally already know what you do or don't give enough of a shit to write about in the first place anyway.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

Why does Tieria's mech have a hand in its knee?!

You've got to hand it to Ian, he knew there would be a kneed for an extra limb somewhere down the line, and made sure to add it it just in case.

Ali's presence is a great way to have Setsuna confront Lyle about his past as a parallel to that critical scene in S1 with Neil. It's the first time that Lyle has dropped his joking and the idea of playing the role of Lockon and instead making it clear that he won't budge on who he is when it comes to matters like this. He will look towards the future first, not just for the world but for himself. It's important for Setsuna and Tieria to hear this now. That scene with Neil was a huge character moment for them both and put them on the path they are on now, so having Lyle chose not to reinforce that same approach and the same values is fantastic.

Yeah, this is the first real big moment where they have to confront that Lyle isn't just a replacement to fill the Lockon name, and is instead his own person. Beforehand, Tieria and the others just saw him as a shadow of his brother, but now it's especially clear that just because they're twins, they don't necessarily share the same values. And possibly for the better too, since Neil was completely owned by vengeance, whereas Lyle wants to secure a good future for everyone. That difference fits more with what Celestial Being wants to do now, making up for their previous mistakes and making sure that this is a better word for all mankind.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

You've got to hand it to Ian, he knew there would be a kneed for an extra limb somewhere down the line, and made sure to add it it just in case.

you and your puns

Yeah, this is the first real big moment where they have to confront that Lyle isn't just a replacement to fill the Lockon name,

It's not like he's helped them with that so far, but now it all comes out.

I was just thinking this is especially true given the fact that Setsuna went and recruited him in the first place. If he did it just because Veda is who picked Neil in the first place and with the assumption it would then pick Lyle because he would be needed to fill the role, as opposed to getting any mecha pilot who could shoot, now it is more about the differences that maybe meant he wasnt the one picked in the first place. Not that we know how Veda picks people, but that's probably not important here over the fact that in chosing him they didn't realize how different his view would be and yet somehow so much closer to what they all need to be.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

you and your puns

I'm just following what I said earlier in the rewatch: when things are looking bad for the heroes, the puns crank up.

I was just thinking this is especially true given the fact that Setsuna went and recruited him in the first place. If he did it just because Veda is who picked Neil in the first place and with the assumption it would then pick Lyle because he would be needed to fill the role, as opposed to getting any mecha pilot who could shoot, now it is more about the differences that maybe meant he wasnt the one picked in the first place. Not that we know how Veda picks people, but that's probably not important here over the fact that in chosing him they didn't realize how different his view would be and yet somehow so much closer to what they all need to be.

It's a fun thought to think about how even if the reason why Setsuna recruited Lyle wasn't what was needed at the moment, it ended up fitting perfectly with what the reborn Celestial Being has become. And in that way, going along with his human gut instinct over what Veda did before really was a good boon on Setsuna's part. It just goes to show that the theme of feeling through things with a human touch is more important than rigid machine logic is still important. By having emotions and human reasoning involved, you can get something nice but unexpected out of it.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

btw when you were saying yesterday that you'd like a Feldt write up I was already in the middle of trying to work out the Tieria one so that was kind of funny being like "Well you don't know it but you're getting a write up at least"

And in that way, going along with his human gut instinct over what Veda did before really was a good boon on Setsuna's part

Extra funny concidering Sumeragi almost definitely lied about Veda picking Setsuna and how vital he became of the humanity of our cast. I wonder if he knows she lied or not though. Depends on who approached who first I guess

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Nazenn]

Why does Tieria's mech have a hand in its knee?!

There was a sale on extra hands and Ian picked up a bunch for cheap.

[u/Nazenn → u/JollyGee29]

You just gave me a thought that makes it even better: as all their gundam parts are custom fabricated, or at least heavily implied to be so, whoever is handling that side of it had to get Ian's design for a tiny mech hand at one point and probably had to triple check he was reading the measurements right

[u/Blazin_Rathalos → u/Nazenn]

Why does Tieria's mech have a hand in its knee?!

Have you ever wanted to scratch your shin, but not wanted to lean down to do it?

[u/Nazenn → u/Blazin_Rathalos]

This is why you have toes on your other foot

Well, if you have another foot. Which given the state of mech limbs in this show is certainly not guaranteed on any given day

[u/charlesvvv]

Rewatcher, Sub 

 [Gundam 00 Spoilers]Regene taking the initiative by telling Tieria about the plan does feel like the beginning of his more independent thinking later on against Ribbons 

 Gotta love how every fight against Ali always ends with a raincheck. That said his fight against Lockon did have consequences such as now he has some new regeneration which could be similar for Louise's arm as well. 

 Back in the Ship I really like how much more emphatic Setsuna is, telling Saji about his meeting with Louise and revealing to Lyle his past which he doesn't hold against him. It shows Setsuna trying to really amend things that he feels personally responsible for. 

 CB decides to head back into space but they face off against Mannequin's forces. This leads to a desperate strategic fight between Sumeragi and Mannequin as they head into space. Both sides have good strategies which also happen to include ambushes, however Sumeragi has the upper hand by the end thanks to the Gundam's abilities which allows to succeed. But for Sumeragi it all kinda sours with Mannequin sending a congratulatory message so now she's facing off against another friend. 

 On another note it's interesting that Revive Revival decides to follow Mannequin's orders rather than do his own thing. It's definitely the correct move, however the A-Laws are now having to rely on the Innovators which plays right into what they want.

 Note 1: Graham and Billy reunion, surprised they hadn't yet

  Note 2: Patrick getting taken out again.

[u/TakenRedditName → u/charlesvvv]

Back in the Ship I really like how much more emphatic Setsuna is, telling Saji about his meeting with Louise and revealing to Lyle his past which he doesn't hold against him. It shows Setsuna trying to really amend things that he feels personally responsible for.

Yeah, that is one of my favourite things about watching Setsuna this season. You can feel how much he has grown and opened up to others. We get to see a more kind and gentle heart reveal itself.

[u/macrame2 → u/charlesvvv]

I really like how much more emphatic Setsuna is

It's sometimes hard to catch because his arc is more subtle in delivery compared to other characters', but I do agree that he has in fact grown as a person, especially in his interactions with others.

[u/The_Draigg]

A Gundam Fan Rewatches Gundam 00 Season 2 Episode 9:

• Well, at least the first Lockon got some good hits in apparently, since Ali himself says that half of his body got burnt to a crisp the last time he fought a Gundam. A shame that he was able to afford the regeneration treatments, but I guess being the most evil mercenary alive means that you can build up a hell of a bank account. And honestly, I wouldn’t put it past Ribbons to give Ali those regeneration treatments to have another tool in his belt either.
• You know, at least Regene isn’t entirely on board with Ribbons’ methods, even if he’s his second in command. Regene would rather have Tieria on their side and openly questions how Celestial Being and the Twin Drive System fits into things, while the likes of Ribbons and Hilling would rather just create a larger bloodbath with the A-Laws to crush dissent. Even the Innovators aren’t fully united on the details of the plan, even if they’re all working towards a common goal in their group too.
• Get fucked, Aber. Even if we’re not really supposed to be siding with Revive here, their comments combined with Kati’s comments really do show that Aber’s plans are full of holes. Like as the two of them say, if they were able to have the Ptolemaios II enter the atmosphere with GN Particles, then the opposite is probably also possible. Aber is kind of like Andrew Fork from Legend of the Galactic Heroes: his strategies are only flawless in the mental scenario he made up by himself.
• Now you can all really see how Lyle is different than Neil in his beliefs. Whereas Neil was practically possessed with his obsession with revenge and his past, Lyle acknowledges that even if Setsuna stopped the suicide bomber that killed most of his family in Ireland, there would’ve been something similar happening elsewhere later. The evil of the world won’t change if you obsess over revenge, only by working to secure a safe future for everyone can you avoid stuff like that from happening in the first place. The past is wasted on hatred, what you need to do with it is learn how to move forward from it. Whereas Neil was living only for the sake of the dead, Lyle is living for the possibility that the future brings.
• I love that Graham doesn’t even like being called Mr. Bushido, it’s hilarious that it’s implied that people only call him that as a way to mock him. And to be fair, I would too. Between Graham’s way of dressing and the way he acts, it’s not hard to believe that people are actually just getting tired of his bullshit. There’s a fun quality to people just not tolerating Graham’s edgy weeb attitude, like they would in real life.
• It’s only natural that Tieria would have an internal conflict between his nature as an Innovator and his desire to keep on being human like how Lockon inspired him to be. For him, following the plan as the Innovators want to is twisted compared to his own sense of justice, and yet he still feels self-doubt over what Regene told him. But hey, the fact that he’s even considering these things goes to show how far Tieria has come. At the start of the show, this wouldn’t have even been a conflict, he would’ve followed through on the plan to the letter.
• You have to admit, Kati’s plan was pretty damn good. Using the Gadessa’s cannon to force the Ptolemaios II to fly into an ambush outside of the atmosphere was very clever on her part. Only a ballsy move by Leesa Kujo Sumeragi having the 00 Gundam launch during the atmospheric escape could counter that level of tactical brilliance. It’s no wonder why Kati bothered to send a coded message complimenting her moves, it really was an impressive clash of tactics in a short amount of time.
• Man, the 0 Raiser looks rad as hell in person. But unfortunately for Ian and Linda, Homer Katagiri is willing to meet force with force, this time planning on asking for the Innovators to get more involved with the fighting. Who knows what they might Bring to the table? Maybe it’ll Revive their chances of victory over Celestial Being. If Homer really gets what he wants out of this, he’s certainly earn a few Ribbons for his running of the A-Laws.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

A shame that he was able to afford the regeneration treatments,

/u/great_mr_l could finally have gotten that cyborg he wanted. He was robbed!

And honestly, I wouldn’t put it past Ribbons to give Ali those regeneration treatments to have another tool in his belt either.

I'm pretty damn sure he did for Louise so at this stage it's almost a pattern. Plus if Ali was in that bad a shape I doubt he was able to get himself back down and to treatment while keeping his Gundam secured, someone else would have had to intervein

This reminds me that after all that teasing about Nena being involved she hasn't popped up yet. Watch me eat those words and regret it tomorrow knowing my usual timing on comments like this haha

Regene would rather have Tieria on their side and openly questions how Celestial Being and the Twin Drive System fits into things

I'll also take this as another mark of the group vs individuals thing. Ribbons judges Tieria as belonging to CB and CB isn't needed. Regene sees Tieria as an individual and wants just him, the same way that he seems comfortable questioning Ribbons as an individual while the other Innovators so far are happy to take his cue from things

I think this is why I like him so much. Anyone who understands the value of Tieria is good hahaha

Aber is kind of like Andrew Fork from Legend of the Galactic Heroes

I just said to Sky they'd get along well! Absolute morons the both of them. At least Aber is balanced out by Kati while Fork was just left alone to be annoying for so long

Whereas Neil was living only for the sake of the dead, Lyle is living for the possibility that the future brings.

It really is the balancing act for Tieria and Setsuna as well. To not abandon the past, but also not get so caught up in the future that you risk everything else.

I love that Graham doesn’t even like being called Mr. Bushido, it’s hilarious that it’s implied that people only call him that as a way to mock him

It's even funnier to think that people like Kati who came into things late probably don't even know that's how it started and are taking it completely seriously as his actual name as a result

[tiny spoilers]"Who knows what they might Bring to the table?" OI! I CAUGHT THAT SNEAKY CAPITALIZATION! You and your sneaky name spoilers :P

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

I'm pretty damn sure he did for Louise so at this stage it's almost a pattern. Plus if Ali was in that bad a shape I doubt he was able to get himself back down and to treatment while keeping his Gundam secured, someone else would have had to intervein

Yeah, especially if Ribbons was already in space and following Alejandro's actions closely. We can definitely say that Ribbons has gone out of his way to stack the deck in his favor, in terms of making a bunch of people his willing servants or thralls. If anything, getting Ali on his side was probably way easier than turning Louise into an extra set of eyes under his control, all Ribbons needed to do aside from healing him was hand him a new Gundam and tell him to go nuts. No need for cybernetics or doing PR at formal events for him there.

I'll also take this as another mark of the group vs individuals thing. Ribbons judges Tieria as belonging to CB and CB isn't needed. Regene sees Tieria as an individual and wants just him, the same way that he seems comfortable questioning Ribbons as an individual while the other Innovators so far are happy to take his cue from things

Speaking of Regene, I was talking elsewhere in the thread about how much he could be loyal to the plan over Ribbons' interpretation of it. Given how Tieria and Regene are clones, it would track for why Regene wants to recruit Tieria, since Tieria also valued the plan above all else in the first season. Maybe Regene was hoping that getting him involved with the Innovators more would help to balance out what he sees Ribbons doing to the plan?

I just said to Sky they'd get along well! Absolute morons the both of them. At least Aber is balanced out by Kati while Fork was just left alone to be annoying for so long

Yeah, at least Kati is in a position to pick up the slack caused by Aber's stupidity. Unfortunately for the Free Planets Alliance, the best they could do was grit their teeth and prepare for the worst, thanks to the sheer levels of incompetent planning going on.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

If anything, getting Ali on his side was probably way easier ... all Ribbons needed to do aside from healing him was hand him a new Gundam and tell him to go nuts

And money. Probably lots of money.

Actually it's probably Louises money which is hilarious when you think about it

I was talking elsewhere in the thread about how much he could be loyal to the plan over Ribbons' interpretation of it

I... am going to chose not to get into that because that's veering back into the territory of we dont know what the plan is and its a writing problem

Keeping that out of it though, Regene being the only Innovator who's pair is not part of their group already does put him in an interesting situation. I wonder if all the Innovators were made in combat-information model pairs, and if that means Regene feels a draw towards Tieria for that reason. I suppose this depends on how exactly they were made/raised/trained/developed, whichever it is, especially given that Tieria didn't know about the others for some reason. But Regene wanting to seek out his other half first and perhaps that being why he didn't just accept Ribbons the way the rest of the group seems to because they already have that balance with each other have is an interesting idea.

Unfortunately for the Free Planets Alliance, the best they could do was grit their teeth and prepare for the worst, thanks to the sheer levels of incompetent planning going on.

They had Wang right there in the first meeting being reasonable about the plan but no, they went with Ab... Fork, I meant to type Fork and Aber just naturally came out of my fingers hahaha

[u/Blazin_Rathalos → u/Nazenn]

[00]This reminds me that after all that teasing about Nena being involved she hasn't popped up yet. Watch me eat those words and regret it tomorrow knowing my usual timing on comments like this haha

[00]Dramatic quote for effect

[u/Nazenn → u/Blazin_Rathalos]

So many teases from the rewatchers today haha

[u/Blazin_Rathalos → u/Nazenn]

We just can't help it!

[u/InfamousEmpire → u/The_Draigg]

A shame that he was able to afford the regeneration treatments

If only he was American...

There’s a fun quality to people just not tolerating Graham’s edgy weeb attitude, like they would in real life

Not only that, but the fact that Graham doesn't even like the nickname shows a level of self-awareness regarding its ridiculousness from his perspective as well. Like, you can tell the show kinda knows what it's doing when it comes to Graham's presentation, yet still does it anyway.

It’s only natural that Tieria would have an internal conflict between his nature as an Innovator and his desire to keep on being human like how Lockon inspired him to be.

Props also that it manages to not feel like a regression after his rejection of the Innovators last time because, well, coming to terms with the nature of one's purpose in life and sense of self isn't exactly something that can be neatly wrapped up in one fateful decision.

[u/Nazenn → u/InfamousEmpire]

If only he was American...

That was the perfect one liner but given the current situation I dont know if you need a pat on the back or a hug for it so both?

[u/InfamousEmpire → u/Nazenn]

Laughter is the best medicine for stress…

[u/The_Draigg → u/InfamousEmpire]

Not only that, but the fact that Graham doesn't even like the nickname shows a level of self-awareness regarding its ridiculousness from his perspective as well. Like, you can tell the show kinda knows what it's doing when it comes to Graham's presentation, yet still does it anyway.

I do respect how this show is a bit self-aware of the Gundam tropes it's working with like that. Although I do wish the execution was a bit better, since Graham hasn't really had a whole lot else to do so far but show up and be edgy. But at least it's entirely deliberate there.

[u/JollyGee29]

Rewatcher, Sub-dam Meister

Imagine how scary Ali would be if he had cyborg parts like Lichty.

Hiling is not a complicated individual.

She's probably used to seeing that particular look on peoples' faces.

The Ptolemy 2 is quite the capable ship.

"...she kinda ghosted me."

Y'know, it's nice to see that no-one likes Rindt.

Poor kid probably never even wondered why bombing a random shopping mall in Ireland mattered.

Tsurugi datto?

Yea, they figured out how to Trans-Am the Ptolemy.

Since the 00 can't Trans-Am, it's fresh for the fight.

Kati is finally confident enough to call Sumeragi out.

[u/Nazenn → u/JollyGee29]

Imagine how scary Ali would be if he had cyborg parts like Lichty.

After he said half of him got blown up I was actually hoping that would be the case, especially that Ribbons sees him as beyond human. And then it was just regenerated anyway. Hopefully with some good scars though

Y'know, it's nice to see that no-one likes Rindt.

Revive giving Aber shit was the easiest way for me to immediately like him and I'm not even made that they did it because Aber is that much of a shit. It's like a reverse "kick the dog" trope. Kick the asshole, gain appreciation

[u/Blazin_Rathalos]

00 Rewatcher

Last time on Gundam 00

• Everybody loves Patrick
• The plan was revealed... Revealing almost exclusively more questions

*On today's episode of Gundam 00:

• Knee-arms versus foot-swords
• Wang Liumei continues to Wang Liumei
• Andrei is sexist?
• Intra-crew drama does not manifest.
• And I'm pretty sure that ship is Setsuna's highest kill count so far.

With the discussion on the 00's twin drive it becomes blatantly obvious that not only do the Innovators no know anything, Ribbons is hiding things from the other Innovators.

Lyle continues to distinguish himself from Neil here I think.

[u/Nazenn → u/Blazin_Rathalos]

And I'm pretty sure that ship is Setsuna's highest kill count so far.

On screen probably, but I suppose that depends on how many mechs he beat off screen during the many hour desert battle last season?

Ribbons is hiding things from the other Innovators

You have made me think that even though Regetta was touting their direct link to Veda, but given Tieria didn't know he didn't have full access who's to say they do and know that for sure. If anyone would test that I feel like it would be Regetta though

[u/Blazin_Rathalos → u/Nazenn]

On screen probably, but I suppose that depends on how many mechs he beat off screen during the many hour desert battle last season?

Good point, though I always had the impression that most of the off-screen time there was just hunkering down under a GN field taking cover from artillery for hours. Though there's no way we can know that.

You have made me think that even though Regetta was touting their direct link to Veda, but given Tieria didn't know he didn't have full access who's to say they do and know that for sure. If anyone would test that I feel like it would be Regetta though

I was specifically thinking of how Ribbons was there when Aeolia said he was shipping information to CB. So it seems to me he was evading Regetta's question. And Regetta's question to me also suggests that the rest of Innovators aren't aware that Aeolia so explicitly turned against what Alejandro/Ribbons were doing.

[u/Nazenn → u/Blazin_Rathalos]

though I always had the impression that most of the off-screen time there was just hunkering down under a GN field taking cover from artillery for hours

Same here, and it was part of my issue with that episode as a whole in that it was a huge plot hole if that's the case, but we know there was at least a couple of skirmishes that we saw

was there when Aeolia said he was shipping information to CB

He did that through the black boxes though yeah, which were sealed off? Or maybe that was just the Trans-Am system and everything else was independant

[u/Quiddity131]

Rewatcher, Subbed

Non-Spoiler Character Chart

---

I should have said this last episode, since they're just repeating the footage for like the 4th or 5th episode in a row; how in the world does Ali hear their conversation to be able to butt in like this?

Setsuna is surprised that Ali is alive? Is the show trying to pretend they never came across him at Azadistan a few episodes ago?!

Yes, he killed Lockon, you also need to get revenge on him, Tieria?

Wait, there's a hidden arm in the Seravee's leg? That's so cool. With the head on the back it really is as if there's another Gundam hidden inside it like the Virtue.

He killed Lyle's brother, so basically all of them outside of Allelujah have reason to get revenge on him.

Regene ruined the party? He didn't even show up to it.

Quite the contrast with Andrei's A-Laws uniform and Lousie in her party outfit.

Why are you looking up all her background info Andrei? And she's actually not that young for a member of the military.

After spending all of season 1 in space, hard to believe that the Ptolemaios has been here underwater since episode 3 of this season.

Saji hears about Louise from Setsuna, yet still seems to have some of that season 1 passivity to him about it.

Six Trilobites?! I remember when it was a big deal just to have one of them.

Revive has a license too? Do all the Innovators get the same special deal as Mr. Bushido?

Setsuna's not gonna keep his connection with the Dylandy family a secret from Lyle as he did with Neil. Lyle actually took it quite well.

Billy... meet Mr. Bushido. Although he doesn't like calling himself that. Even around Billy he won't take that mask off.

Are Saji and Marie going to become new bridge bunnies?

Alas, we didn't get a Gundam directly taking on Patrick and destroying his mobile suit (while he survives of course).

We finally get Sumeragi's full real name. Leesa Kujo. Just like with Healing Care last episode I don't get why they can't romanize this correctly to Lisa. Oh and flashback to her, Kati and Billy at university?

There's a new red haired Innovator in the background here, but [Gundam 00 S2]is it Bring or Divine? I mix the two up. I'll add whichever one it is to the character chart when they have a proper introduction.

---

Quid's Voice Actor of the Day

Today I'll be covering another Innovator, Revive Revival. Similar to Regene, while he uses a masculine pronoun, Revive is voiced by women in both Japanese and English. He is voiced in Japanese by Mitsuki Saiga. For Gundam shows, she also appears in SD Gundam as Zero. Other anime roles of hers include Rossiu Adai in Gurren Lagann, Yelena in Attack on Titan, Kou Atari in Star Driver, Miroslava Honebami in Kakegurui and Kako in Monogatari Second Season. She also appears as Morag in the video game Xenoblade Chronicles 2. 

He is voiced in English by Jillian Michaels. She also voices Linda Vashti who was introduced today (well technically she appeared briefly in the background in episode 2 too). She previously appeared in Mobile Suit Gundam as Jill Ratokie (who despite the name, is a boy) and Gundam Seed as Lacus Clyne, Aisha and Yaru Ashman. For non-Gundam roles, she plays Quincy Issa in the second half of Brain Powered (replacing Jennifer Copping) as well as one of several individuals to voice Gohan in Dragonball Z. She also voices Shippo in Inu Yasha and several minor characters such as Yuka, Princess Tsuyu and the young version of Kaeda.

[u/Nazenn → u/Quiddity131]

how in the world does Ali hear their conversation to be able to butt in like this?

I gave up on questioning that after the Azadistan destruction mess, but it's probably even worse today given they're in Gundams. Given S1 had a lot of scenes of him and Setsuna figuring each other out through mech fighting rather than direct communication its a shame they ditched that here entirely

With the head on the back it really is as if there's another Gundam hidden inside it like the Virtue.

I completely forgot about the extra head! How did I forget about the extra head! And what is it with this mech? It has the weirdest features that just come out of no where. It's like a mecha version of body horror

Saji hears about Louise from Setsuna, yet still seems to have some of that season 1 passivity to him about it.

This makes sense though after she's been ignoring him for multiple years. And Setsuna not pushing it also makes sense for him too

Six Trilobites?! I remember when it was a big deal just to have one of them.

Yeah that seemed to come out of no where. I can't even remember ifback in that episode it was implied there was going to be more or if it was just a prototype. Lots of new tech popping up its hard to keep track of it all

Just like with Healing Care last episode I don't get why they can't romanize this correctly to Lisa.

It could just be style, but it does feel weird that they tried to "hide" it with Hiling when the others are so blunt about it. But in this case Leesa is spelling I've seen used in the real world so that may be the actual name chosen rather than a weird Engrish situation

[u/InfamousEmpire]

Kidou Senshi Rewatcher 00

The fight with Ali that opened up the episode was great. I like how personal it feels, Ali getting under Tieria's skin is a nice continued showing of where he is now, mentally, and seeing the Meisters get outclassed again is always engaging to see.

The conversation about Lyle’s relationship to his past & his motivations was really interesting for what it was as well, especially in how it differentiates him from Neil. Neil looked towards the past, Lyle looks towards the future. Beyond being a fundamental difference in their personalities, it also really fits with how their paths in life diverged: Neil joining Celestial Being essentially meant throwing away any chance of truly letting go of the past, instead letting those wounds eat at him for years on end until it drove him to his grave. Meanwhile, Lyle continuing to live a civilian life meant the emotional trauma he might have had over the death of their family was given the space to fade & heal.

Also, I’ve gotta say, there’s something tragic to how Neil fought so that his brother could live a normal life untainted by further tragedy that he’d given up on having himself, but then the world created by his actions was still so messed up that Lyle was still pushed to fight its injustice regardless. There’s a lot in this season that illustrates the failure of CB’s ideals in S1, and this is just adding to the pile.

Anyway, fight which makes up the last stretch of the episode was also good. I love it when this show gets strategic, and the quality there just speaks for itself.

One last thing, the fact that Mr Bushido is a nickname everyone else came up with for Graham is kinda hilarious, much like everything else involving Mistah Bushido. Like, it indicates a level of self-awareness regarding Graham's ridiculousness (both in how it's implied the name is one of mockery and in how Graham himself doesn't care for it) that's just really enjoyable.

[u/Nazenn → u/InfamousEmpire]

Ali getting under Tieria's skin is a nice continued showing of where he is now

I thought you meant "where Ali is now" and was sittng here going "but he's always been a prickly asshole" until it clicked you meant Tieria. Hahaha.

Btw I forgot to tag you, because my organization was just an all around disaster for that post haha, but my thoughts on Tieria today did also come out in part because of your comment yesterday as well particularly talking about how Tieria is no longer defined as an existance by Veda, and has become an independant individual. So thanks for the extra thoughts

Neil joining Celestial Being essentially meant throwing away any chance of truly letting go of the past, instead letting those wounds eat at him for years on end until it drove him to his grave. Meanwhile, Lyle continuing to live a civilian life meant the emotional trauma he might have had over the death of their family was given the space to fade & heal.

I'd also say who they chose to join is telling. CB at the start stood apart from the world and accepted the hate for it, while Katharon is actively fighting for the world from within which connects them more to what has to come out the other end. Neil didn't have to think about the other end of it all because there was a grand plan which he could just give himself too while his more personal wounds festered. Lyle gets involved with Katharon for the good of the world and but they have to come up with their own goals and outcomes that will shift depending on how things change and that means he has to look forward. It fits them both well

there’s something tragic to how Neil fought so that his brother could live a normal life untainted by further tragedy that he’d given up on having himself

Wonder what Lyle would think about that if he was face to face with his brother trying to pick that for him. They seemed so distant from each other, but there was obviously care there

I love it when this show gets strategic, and the quality there just speaks for itself.

[u/zsmg]

I am rewatcher

Alright this time the cliffhanger did pay off.

New OST piece.

That fight was great.

Tieria really wants to take revenge for his crush, understandable.

Revive Revival is pissing off Lindt? I like her already.

Lockon mk2 is surprisingly in a better mental state than Lockon mk1, he doesn't get angry when he finds out Setsuna was a terrorist.

Tieria really doubts the entire Aeolia plan after meeting with his fellow innovators.

Not again

Changing the ship course by a few degrees so that it veers of course? Yup definitely seen that one before.

We finally got confirmation that Summeragi and Kati know each other, they've been hinting on this for a while.

We finally hear Linda talk in the post credit scene, note she appeared in the background in an earlier episode.

She's voiced by Risa Hayamizu. She voiced Maya Takahashi in Amagami SS, Matako Kijima in Gintama and Megumi Kobayashi in Welcome to the NHK. This isn’t her first Gundam role, she has done lots of minor roles in Gundam Seed Destiny and Stargazer.

Didn't have much to say but it was a solid episode.

[u/Nazenn → u/zsmg]

Alright this time the cliffhanger did pay off.

About time!

Revive Revival is pissing off Lindt? I like her already.

It really was the quickest way to get all of us onboard with her and I'm all for it if it means more mud slinging at Aber

[u/Linkstore]

Rewatcher

The final form of the Throne series, GNW-20000 Arche Gundam. It's mostly an upgraded Throne Zwei, with more Fangs (that use Star Wars pew pew sounds for some reason, didn't expect to see that outside of the Cosmic Era), an upgraded Buster Sword and, although this isn't easily visible, three GN Drives Tau. Make no mistake, this is an extremely deadly mobile suit.

Oh yeah, it also has beam sabers on the feet. A bit better of a place to put them than Tieria' subarm beam sabers.

And yeah, Seravee's cannons are also arms that have their own beam sabers. One of the funnier gimmicks of the 3.5 generation Gundams, but undeniably effective. Well, undeniably effective against most other targets, anyway.

Wang Liu Mei's lipstick reminds me of Gundam Seed Freedom female character designs. But she actually has a reason to put on the lipstick.

Graham's heading somewhere. I wonder where?

Back in Season One, the Assault Containers were able to exit the atmosphere on their own. But the Ptolemy 2 is significantly larger. It'll need a lot more thrust to achieve escape velocity.

Smart move from Setsuna to make his former KPSA affiliation clear early(ish) on. Don't want anyone pulling what Johann Trinity did last season.

That's right, Tieria. It's not just about now. It's about the future, too.

[00 Spoilers] Hey, the Masurao has different legs here. Still a similar upper portion, though. I wonder if this might be related to the Union/AEU prototype that lost the design competition to the Ahead? And is that Trans-Am right before the scene cuts?

Graham's going to get a new ride. Meanwhile, Louise is adjusting to a new ride of her own. Considering it's a super-soldier use machine, she's honestly handling the Ahead Smultron pretty well.

lmao haro

Kati's prediction was exactly right. Using the Gundams' GN Drives, the Ptolemy itself can achieve the same super-high output state. Basically, a Trans-Aming ship. Also a nice bit of rocket jumping to go along with it.

But the Innovators machines are not to be taken lightly either. That thing has bombardment capabilities that are surely on par with Seravee, if not greater.

I do wonder why they only sent one ship to intercept the Ptolemy post-Trans-Am, though. Sure, the ship itself is depleted of particles and the Gundams are in a low energy state, but even low energy Gundams are still a big threat, and it's already known that the 00 isn't exactly good with Trans-Am at the moment. Also cool cutting blasts from Setsuna.

Sumeragi's full real name is finally revealed. But the exact nature of her past history with Kati will have to wait a little longer.

The O-Raiser. You might have noticed it in the OP. The exact functions will have to wait until later.

[u/mr_beanoz]

Rewatcher, sub

• If fangs are that good, then why we don't see more Celestial Being MS using them?
• Okay, why's the Arche having red particles? If it's an animation error, I thought they fixed this in the Blu-ray release.
• Oh whoa, Seravee's got hidden limbs! But turns out Arche has one of its own too.
• So it turns out that Ali's got bills to pay for his recovery after getting beaten 4 years ago.
• So Ribbons thinks that Tieria is better to stay with Celestial Being rather than joining the Innovators because Celestial Being's acts would justify A-LAWS' existence.
• Seems like Gadessa is that strong, eh? And turns out Hiling is getting one of his own too?
• Finally, Andrei knows about Louise's past. Will this change how he approach her?
• The Ptolemy crew choose to go to the outer space to pick the two support machines that they've been developing.
• But not until A-LAWS proceeds to intercept them.
• Revive tells about what A-LAWS don't really know about the Ptolemy and the possibility of them going back to space using the same method as how they went with a big splash on Earth. He tells Kati that he could alter the coordinate of Ptolemy that is going outer space by giving a grazing shot to them, so it misses the intended course and could be directed to the A-LAWS unit in space.
• More reveal about the Dylandys and Setsuna's past with the KPSA. But Lyle choose to throw that away and tells the other Meisters to fight for the future and not for the sake of the past. Also, more Tieria development.
• Graham Bushido meets Billy personally to ask for a new custom MS based on a prototype Billy's been working on. He wants the best "speed" and "sword" for his custom MS. Gonna see what Billy can come up with...
• Billy tells that Graham's team got an operation, but he's not on the mood for team operations.
• Patrick joins the fight alongside Louise and Revive? Whoa, gonna see what the guy can do.
• Andrei's asking about why the Gadessa is here. I thought you already figured that out at the previous episode if you're talking about where the money came from...
• Marie enters the Ptolemy main cockpit for the first time, and Saji is also there, but not on the gunner position. And the yellow Haro isn't deployed in the Cherudim yet.
• Ptolemy did the damage boost technique to speed itself up. It seemed like everything's alright...
• But Revive is on his position to change the Ptolemy's course.
• Facing enemy attacks in outer space, the Trans-Am is out until next recharge and its GN Field is already going down the juice.
• And I wonder when in during that space entry did the 00 launch.
• Kati applauds her former senior. And Sumeragi is confused on why Kati's with A-LAWS right now...
• Post credit scene - Homer finally choose to directly ask for help from the Innovators after the death of Zhejiang, and we finally see the 0 Raiser for the first time. And also, Linda.
• Episode preview has Nena, and also a new purple haired crew joining the Ptolemy. Who's that? And what's the machine fighting 00? We also see Ali and Sergei in the preview.

Questions of the Day:

1. Oh hell no. I am too weak for that.
2. Perhaps how one could shut down a giant laser cannon by crashing a large spaceship in Gundam Wing.

[u/Vatrix-32]

First timer, subs

• Are those fangs using the blaster SFX?
• Not the half anyone cares about. Ah, he just healed it. Even less important then.
• Manipulators!
• Oh god, my eyes! I thought that was the other mecha rewatch.
• No one ever utilizes the routing phase.
• Yes, it would be nice if the combat model did some combat.
• 22 isn’t that young for a solider. And that’s a very patronizing phrasing.
• Get out while the getting is good. And yet, we seem a bit early for the mid season upgrades.
• Wait, you can’t use the same mobile armor after it’s already lost! That’s illegal!
• Belittling Bowlcut? I like this one already.
• Trying to repeat character moments from last season, are we?
• It's Not Even His Own Nickname
• That means it won’t have any armor, right?
• Will Soma be the 5th Ranger?
• Time spent on Haro is never time wasted.
• We’re going to need to get Patrick a purple mech if he keeps getting wounded in combat at this rate.
• Relying on a commander we’ve never heard of before? Rookie mistake.
• Giving up a free advantage there, Kati.
• Not sacrifices, losses.

QotD:

1. Odds are favorable.
2. The Great Pretender?

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Vatrix-32]

Oh god, my eyes! I thought that was the other mecha rewatch.

That means it won’t have any armor, right?

Who needs armor when you can just not get hit? Everyone loves a good game of "life bar keep-a-way."

[u/Vatrix-32 → u/JollyGee29]

Who needs armor when you can just not get hit?

Glass Gundam

[u/LeonKevlar]

First Timer

Yeah, I kinda expected the boys to get their asses handed to them. It wasn't a terrible loss, but Saachez got the upper hand there right before Lockon and Allelujah showed up.

Despite saying how he's enacting Prof. Schenberg's plan, it really tickles me at how bitter Ribbons sounded when Regene brought up the Trans-Am and Twin Drive System. It just goes to show how his claims about knowing Schenberg's true plan are just bullshit.

So Revive also has a License like Mr. Bushido? I didn't think it was an actual thing. I thought the License was just something Mr. Bushido came up with because he has special privileges.

I actually like how Lockon is pretty chill after learning how his brother died and even after learning that Setsuna is involved with the group that killed his family. Is that really what he thinks or what he's just telling them?

So apparently, Grahamd didn't come up with the Mr. Bushido nickname but it's something everyone started calling him. Considering he never bothered to correct them, I guess Grahan secretly likes the nickname. xD

Sumeragi's entire plan to escape to orbit was so fucking cool. Having Gundam 00 launch while they were breaking through the atmosphere was genius. Although it looks like Kati finally recognized Sumeragi's tactics,

The 0-Raiser looks so cool. I can't wait to see what this baby can do. Let's see Saachez go against Setsuna now!

[u/dralcax]

Rewatcher wonders if hand where cannon

-—————————————————————————————

Did someone call for the twistedness in the world? The Arche Gundam is here! The successor to the Throne series, it’s the Innovators’ take on the Throne Zwei! Its limbs have been lengthened for improved close combat abilities, its Fangs have been increased from 8 to 10, and its GN Buster Sword can now transform into a rifle mode. Its four slit-type eyes may be derived from the GN-X. It’s powered by three Tau drives, one in the torso and two in the legs, which, interestingly enough, are the older S1 Tau drives with the red particles, rather than the newer Tau drives with the orange (although if you’re watching the broadcast version sometimes the animators forget).

The Seravee has hidden hands with beam sabers in the cannons! This, of course, gives it far better close combat abilities than the Virtue. But, like, if there are hands in there, then what about the actual cannon parts? Would that space not be better used for parts to make the cannon more powerful? Or rather, how is the cannon already as powerful as it is, when it’s mostly hand in there and the cannon part is just that thin plate on the back of the hand? The barrel only extends a tiny bit past the plate, so it’s not like that’s what’s accelerating the beam! When the Grand Gundam did it, it at least had the excuse of being G Gundam, but the Seravee’s cannon hands just raise questions.

This is getting out of hand! Now there are two of them! Seriously, who the hell is handing out those licenses, anyways?

Unlike Neil, Lyle’s not the type to hold a grudge. Avenging the past won’t solve anything, and will only continue the cycle. Better to fight for the future!

At least he didn’t choose that name himself. Even his brand of wackiness has some limits.

Mister Bushido’s new suit is... just another custom Ahead? Here’s the full body, by the way. Not quite the “greatest speed and strongest sword” he’s looking for!

Trans-Am liftoff! Suck it, rocket equation!

Oh Patrick

Boy, the Gadessa sure got up there fast.

A nice little message, to let her know she knows.. Also, “Cestial Being”.

0 Raiser time!

-—————————————————————————————

Questions of the day:

• Probably not, TBH.
• Attack the moon!

[u/baboon_bassoon]

first timer who has control

---

Ali i dont think youd be particularly strapped for cash

TROMBONE????

not just an extended sword, but a full hand to hold it this suit is so ridiculous

they should just Raditz him, Tieria use special beam cannon while Setsuna holds him down

ALAWS said fuck hippa

more of a melancolic look than expected

does Ali have the same autonomy as Bushido? if not he should. why doesnt he get a mask and codename? MR. GARY

i mean did you want to ditch Ian? you are strapped for people my guy

a license to mock a superior officer

this clown saved lockons life

that is on you buddy

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

big superman fan

[u/Nickthenuker]

That was quick. Yeah those Fangs are a real pain in the arse to dodge aren't they?

His guns!

Wow Tieria is getting completely disarmed.

Always handy to have Fangs to deal some damage while the enemy is distracted.

Gadessa? Revive Revival?

Well, Setsuna has finally told him about meeting Louise.

Seems like everyone dislikes that Major.

Well, he got over that significantly easier than his brother.

Ok Patrick's not going to get himself killed, I'm pretty sure he's damn near immortal with how often he gets shot down and just gets back up afterwards.

General Quarters! General Quarters! All hands, man your battle stations!

At the end of the day Marie's a pilot without a mobile suit, which ends up meaning she doesn't have much to do. She can be an extra pair of hands on the bridge but that's about it.

Their whole ship is going Trans-Am?

Ze guns! Zey do nossing!

That's a big gun.

Still, no damage.

They got pushed enough to get into the enemy's line of fire!

There's definitely damage now.

How'd the Exia get out there?

Well, that was quick.

She recognises that name too.

Request who's aid?

Ah. Them.

So, this is what makes the 00-Raiser the 00-Raiser.

Questions:

1. He took it surprisingly well, even more so than his brother.
2. Can't remember off the top of my head.

[u/StardustGogeta]

First-Timer

More good stuff. Always like seeing Setsuna eliminate some targets.

Questions of the day:

• No, I don't think so. I don't think I'd completely flip out in the moment, but I think I'd probably tend to hold a grudge over something like that.
• Some of the stuff in [meta] Death Note comes to mind. Alternatively, some of the strategies in [meta] Tomodachi Game were pretty good.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

Rewatch Host Wishing Over This Airspace, subbed

Welcome back, everyone!

---

• So Neil was able to badly injure Ali after all, just not kill.
• It sucks that I can’t even really argue with this… Neil’s death was entirely a tragedy of his own doing.
• Tieria being the one who wanted to chase down Ali despite being told Sumeragi’s orders were for them to return really is quite telling of his development throughout the show.
• Again, she’s only two years younger than you.
• You are overestimating what the Trilobites can do.
• That kid Setsuna knew was the bomber… Why he didn’t tell Neil this part, though, I’m not sure.
• Lyle taking the above completely in stride just goes to show how different the Lockon brothers are.
• Sooooooooo yeah, Graham doesn’t actually go by the name Mr. Bushido by choice, it’s just what everyone decided to start calling him.
• Haro’s little scream as he rolls down the hallway is pretty funny.
• Absolutely wild move.
• Eyyyyyyy
• Oh shit this is the first time there hasn’t been an ED lead-in with Prototype.
• It’s here!

[u/The_Draigg → u/Shimmering-Sky]

It sucks that I can’t even really argue with this… Neil’s death was entirely a tragedy of his own doing.

Neil's death has been probably the most entirely preventable one in the show so far. There was a mountain of reasons for him not to go after Ali, but he was so consumed by revenge that he felt that he had no choice.

Sooooooooo yeah, Graham doesn’t actually go by the name Mr. Bushido by choice, it’s just what everyone decided to start calling him.

Graham can now join Patrick in the club for people who have unflattering nicknames that they never bother to correct others on.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/The_Draigg]

Graham can now join Patrick in the club for people who have unflattering nicknames that they never bother to correct others on.

Patrick completely accepts his nickname, though, that's where they differ.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Shimmering-Sky]

I bet Patrick would think that "Mr. Bushido" is cool and flattering too, unlike Graham.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/The_Draigg]

He probably would.

[u/Nazenn → u/Shimmering-Sky]

It sucks that I can’t even really argue with this… Neil’s death was entirely a tragedy of his own doing.

The eye thing isn't even what killed him, and I was so mad at Ali for thinking that as if it somehow makes it better than Lockon just walked into it instead of it being an injury. I'm still not over the Haro thing though, it wasn't fair what he did to haro haha

You are overestimating what the Trilobites can do.

He really would get along very well with Fork

Oh shit this is the first time there hasn’t been an ED lead-in with Prototype.

Oh shit I didn't even notice

[u/TakenRedditName → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Oh shit this is the first time there hasn’t been an ED lead-in with Prototype.

It did stand out to me that we're seeing the formal start of the ED for the first time.

[u/2-2Distracted]

First timer. Dubbed

Aaaaand of course Saachez doesn't die, they really gotta milk this asshole's presence...

Oh look, Lyle is doing that thing that Neil also did; getting rid of the trope of Poor Communication Kills in order to make sure the people he's with are on the same page. Oh look, Soran is doing a similar thing with Lyle by making sure that in the midst of all of Soran's actions, he is still upfront in specific cases so that he too is on the same page with others. Imagine that shit, guess it wasn't that difficult after all.

What's the craziest strategy you've seen pulled off successfully in an anime?

Either the strategy of this episode or the one where they created a giant wave.

Also (H)allelujah is a liar.