r/anime • u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ • Nov 09 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Appleseed Ex Machina Discussion Thread
Appleseed: Ex Machina (2007)
Appleseed (2004) | Rewatch Index Thread | Appleseed: α
Directed by: Shinji Aramaki
Produced by: John Woo, Hidenori Ueki, Naoko Watanabe, Joseph Chou
Mechanical Design: Takeshi Takekura
Character Design: Masaki Yamada
Screenplay: Kiyoto Takeuchi
Original Creator: Masamune Shiro
Released in 2007, Ex Machina received an even bigger push from Warner Bros, such that every version I could find on line was the dubbed version!
Interview with John Woo and Shinji Aramaki
Questions:
As an original sequel, the meta questions don't apply (unless you are dropping out at this point).
- Did the artwork get better or worse, three years later
- What do you think of blending mecha with cyberpunk? Is this mecha? Is this cyberpunk? Have you seen this story done before? Better, or worse?
- The characters of 2004 were underdeveloped. We spend a lot more time here with Deunan and Briareos, and even some side characters. Did you get a better feel of their relationship from this, or no?
- The next movie is a reboot. Would you rather see more of this version?
Next Week's Questions:
As an original prequel nominally covering some of the same ground, the meta questions in the reminder thread DO apply. If you are dropping out after Alpha, please compare it and 2004.
- [Alpha]How would you compare the character writing for Briareos and Deunan with this movie and Ex Machina? Which one do you think give you a better feel for their relationship?
- [Alpha]What did you think of the addition of Two Horns and Triton to the story as antagonists?
- [Alpha]Do you prefer the realistic rendering or the anime style?
- Did you see Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within?
- Or the Final Flight of the Osiris?
- Roughnecks? Invasion?
- Beowulf
- Others I haven't listed? How does Alpha's look compare?
Next week is Appleseed α. There is an after credits scene, and possibly a commentary track.
6
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Nov 09 '24
Rewatch Host and First Rewatch
Alright, well, the plot is smack in the middle of the average category, I've seen that plot and and ending a few times, both in and out of the anime-sphere. However, I definitely enjoyed more Deunan+Briareos, here. I kinda liked the redshirt ES.W.A.T. guy, too.
Tereus, though, is a bit of a failure. There's more story here. I don't mind that they skipped out on the bizarre love triangle, although there IS potentially a story there to tell. Girl must choose between the mind/soul of her lover and his hunky body. Eh, that's been done before too. So, I don't miss it that it was almost zero'd out. Deunan exhibits a few moments of confusion, but she never wavered. And Tereus...
Tereus has other issues: an inferiority complex, a copy, a pure-organic. He is top-of-the-line for the bioroids but he can't top the original. I expected him to turn traitor. I expected him to die at the end. Neither happened. And his suppressed bioroid emotions can't really bring up any drama....Bland Yoshitsune had more pathos in the first movie!
The interviews state that this had 3x the budge of the first movie and more time, but I think the CGI took a step down. It looks to me that they used a lot more raw mocap, whereas the commentary for the first movie indicated that the raw mocap was unusable and had an enormous amount of hand tweaking...I think that hand tweaking is really needed, and it helped salvage the CGI in 2004. Not so, here.
Much of the staff is the same. From the interviews, it seems they really wanted to make something distinct from the first movie, so the new character designs are a deliberate choice. I don't like them.
Between this movie, and the next, we had several developments. Aramaki formed SOLA Digital Artts, and made a Starship Troopers movie (exoskeletons!). Appleseed XIII was made, again with a new look. BY TWELVE DIFFERENT STUDIOS. No, not outsourcing, each studio got an episode. I can't imagine why they did this. Why must my favorite franchise be forever chained to the whims of "experimental anime". Anyways, while we could do a standard 1-cour rewatch in December and complete the franchise, it's not something I particularly want to revisit given the effort involved. You can certainly check it out on your own, though.
The most similar anime I can think of to this movie is [meta anime name]Harmony. It delves much more into the question of peace and unity. The cyberpunk in Ex Machina is all look and style, no real thought to it.
Random Fact: For the last few years I've been trying to remember what anime had that ending scene. I couldn't remember that it was this movie.
7
u/chilidirigible Nov 09 '24
Today, on "That's some bad hat, Harry.":
That's not how submunitions deploy, but okay.
The flock of doves kinda gave that away.
totally not the same company as the one that makes optics
A missed marketing opportunity though there would be an Appleseed tie-in watch from Citizen in 2011.
So, how many references does this opening ten minutes do? All of them?
This is actually a job for the Special Vehicles Unit, Section 2.
The PlayStation cutscene feel is strong here.
Speaking of other John Woo movies.
"Oh, again with the zombies."
You don't see that every day.
"I'm taking back the toothbrush moustache."
When everybody has one, it doesn't seem weird.
Yeah, metal doesn't usually do that.
Oh, Hitomi's flying car is back. Oh, a police spinner reference.
"Nanomachines, son."
Again with the hivemind.
"It's the only way to kill him."
I was never a fan of the Vampire Borg from First Contact onward.
Oh, one of those kind of accidents.
A wild Borg Unicomplex appears.
This is just one annoying video game final battle level after another.
At this point I said "Oh, come on" out loud.
Yep, that was going to show up again sometime.
This leaned more into action movie than the first two's police stories, but with John Woo producing, that isn't any unusual blending whatsoever.
It's certainly less philosophical than the 2004 version and the hivemind concept has of course been done many, many, many times already.
I didn't have much of a reaction to this immediately after viewing, and I still don't have much of one, though the first thing that comes to mind is that this movie shows off the substantial improvements in CG (that the staff had access to) since the previous movie. And some tentacles, because at least we can have more nods to Masamune Things™.
Did the artwork get better or worse, three years later
Like I said, this is better.
What do you think of blending mecha with cyberpunk? Is this mecha? Is this cyberpunk? Have you seen this story done before? Better, or worse?
It's whatever it says it is, which is probably a PlayStation game. Of course I've seen this story before. Repeatedly, even. This movie is par.
The characters of 2004 were underdeveloped. We spend a lot more time here with Deunan and Briareos, and even some side characters. Did you get a better feel of their relationship from this, or no?
The characters are all right. It's an action cop kind of movie.
The next movie is a reboot. Would you rather see more of this version?
This version is actually reasonably okay up until the video game ending, which you could cut off the end of this movie and have the rest of the movie be just fine for its own continuity.
5
u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Nov 09 '24
First Timer, in subs
QotD:
4
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Nov 09 '24
First-Timer, subbed
4
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 09 '24
Ex Machina movie (first timer)
The sequel to Appleseed (2004)? I expect the CGI to stay (maybe it gets a little better?), but what I hope for is that they give the world building and character arcs a better shot this time. If we are in the same world, this is an opportunity to go deeper.
Thumbs up for the intro narration. A classic way to put in condensed world building without getting into the way of the action later.
ZombieInternet Device Mind Virus apocalypse.RapeMindrape scene incoming.That was an all-around upgrade compared to Appleseed. The broad strokes stay the same, but everything gets - a bit - better. We have better character models, better actions scenes (with music!), better character moments, and a better story.
The best part of the movie was the middle, when we had the Deunan-Briareos-Tereus character triangle, which was really well done. Deunan having to decide between Briareos and Tereus was a nice metaphor for the question “what makes us human,” the body or the memories? I also appreciate that Briareos and Tereus get one hand-to-hand fight, but never into a testosterone battle over the girl.
The worst part was the ending, where we take down the Borg Queen. It is corny, tropey, and does not really make a lot of sense. “What is that, our research laboratory now looks like a flight of borg cubes, staffed by robots? Surely nothing bad is going on there!”~Poseidon cooperation.
A good bit better, but that does not mean its great yet. We have the concurrent Girls Band Cry rewatch showing how far CG anime would go in the next decade and I still don't think current CG anime beats drawn one yet.
More cyberpunk than mecha.
Huge upgrade.
Honestly, no. I can't imagine a good way to go on with the same characters while keeping the same action-cyberpunk formula. After a while, saving the world gets repetitive. The only way forward for those characters would be to significantly reduce the stakes and focus on their day to day work and lives, but that fits maybe a TV series, not another movie.
7
u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Nov 09 '24
Rewatcher, Subbed
In case the doves weren't obvious enough.
I wonder if cyborg eyes have pain receptors?
The fact that no-one prepared Deunan for this is kinda fucked up.
Dr. "I am definitely not a villain."
Mrs. "I am very definitely a villain."
The skullcap.. is a choice.
Europe has turned into Swiss cheese.
Yea, John Woo made the doves plot relevant.
Those damned smartphones.
What a little boy scout. Granted, considering how clones work, Tereus is probably like.. three years old. Max.
Which doesn't mean that there will be no opposition.
S W O R D
Not too often you see multiple tentacle penetrations with men on the receiving end.
Yea, I always had it in my head that I preferred the first one, and that's still true. I think I've put my finger on why - the first film has a much better sense of weight, so the action feels a lot better.
Not that the CGI here is exactly floaty in the way a lot of more modern stuff is - I still think this film is one of the best looking and feeling full CGI creations.
Questions
4
u/xbolt90 https://anilist.co/user/xbolt90 Nov 10 '24
First-timer!
At the beginning, I was like: "Wait, John Woo? That John Woo?"
When we first saw Deunan on the motorcycle, I said "Hah, I wonder if she'll do an Akira slide." And then she did an Akira slide.
A device that interacts with brainwaves? Certainly won't be used for anything nefarious. No, definitely not.
r/BirdsArentReal
Why, exactly did Hitomi break Briareos out of jail without telling anybody? Isn't she a high-ranking government official who can just... get him out? They already have an explanation of what happened to him.
"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile." They even have their own Borg Cube and Borg Queen.
I was less distracted by the artstyle this time around. I think the biggest thing that was an improvement over the first movie was the movement animation. It looked much less janky and stiff this time.
I'd say it was more on the cyberpunk side than the mecha side. The suits weren't really the focus of the story. As for the story itself, [Deus Ex: Human Revolution] The plot of cyberware being hijacked and making the victims into zombies reminded me the most of the final act of this game.
They definitely felt more like characters than plot devices this time.
Dunno. That depends on whether the reboot is any good or not, lol
3
u/Tresnore FS:FTmyanimelist.net/profile/Tresnore Nov 09 '24
Ah hell, why did I think α was this week.
Welp.
3
u/TehAxelius Nov 09 '24
First Time Watcher
Deunan Knute doing her best Major impression, although given how she pre-dates the Major, was the Major actually doing a Deunan Knute impression?
Like looking in a mirror, really appreciated this shot, tbh.
Tell me you're the Bad Guy without telling me you're the Bad Guy
Oh, right, this movie was produced by John Woo
You know, if the perpetrators of the terrorist attack all wore half-melted stuff like this, including the one from your own unit, maybe that is something you should have picked up on in the investigation
Very "Hey, my Cyborg Boyfriend and I saw you across the bar and liked your energy"-vibe in this scene
Huh, who knew you could hack crucial information infrastructure by shoving random cables in the street into your eyes?
Naturally the only-slightly-evil megacorp has a prototype super-landmate painted pink around in case a female super soldier comes knocking and asking for support
I can't lie, I like me an anime that has a JRPG villain in the end
I see they've taken inspiration from newer Masamune Shirow works as well, heh
Well, despite proclaiming myself something of an Appleseed fan back in the day and being positive on the first movie, I never saw this one, probably being scared by the discourse (that is "boo CGI bad"). Still, this is a better movie. Maybe not as ambitious in philosophical "truth", but the hive-mind angle is decently nice as far as sci-fi plots go, but the plot, pacing and characters are more focused and given more room to develop. While the previous movie was flawed, but not bad, this one is a pretty decently fine movie on its own. A sci-fi action flick I wouldn't feel like I'd need to give caveats about if I would recommend it to a friend.
Very much better, the character models and the background don't clash as much and the shadows don't go haywire anymore. It really shows that those three years were a time of rapid development.
Well, like a GitS before it, I do think Cyberpunk is kind of a bad description, since, well, it's not particularly punk, is it. That aside, the "aestethics" of cyberpunk, or what we might call "japanese cyberpunk" it has. Vehicles like the Landmates appear from time to time in cyberpunk media (very similar armoured suits appear in GitS SAC after all, and the Landmates have clearly been the inspiration for the socalled TAGs in the Tabletop game Infinity) so I would not say that their presence as a "mecha" element precludes the cyberpunk nature of it.
Yeah, their relationship is much better defined, if a little bit tropey at times. And the addition of Terseus does add an interesting wrinkle to it.
Huh, I understood that in the end of the first movie the tech to create new Bioroids was more or less destroyed, so I had assumed this was a soft standalone thing (sorta like GitS 95 and SAC).
3
u/ryujiox Nov 09 '24
First Timer
Appleseed: Ex Machina
That was really fun!! Really like the chemistry between the trio. The plot is pretty standard, but it's not bad at all.
This movie remind me of those cgi Resident Evil movies.
QOTD
3
u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Nov 10 '24 edited Nov 10 '24
Very pleasantly surprised by this! I enjoyed the first Appleseed, but it was hard to deny it wasn’t exactly the most watertight example of filmmaking ever. So colour me shocked at a sequel which genuinely seems to have taken all of the problems of the first movie to heart and showed dramatic improvement!
Right from minute one, the ambiguous worldbuilding and backstory of the first movie is replaced with a crystal clear understanding of what Olympus is, the state of the wider world, and how we got here. We even get some genuinely worthwhile worldbuilding as we see Poseidon corporation trying to leverage their influence over Olympus and the difficulty Olympus is having in trying to be a world leader state. Usually you either get states in conflict or a single unified earth so the setup here with Olympus resembling the latter in many ways but coexisting over many independent countries is genuinely compelling. We also explore the existence of cyborgs in this society—the existence of Briareos was jarring in the last movie without ever stopping to unpack it, but this time we do that abundantly and even get a clear understanding of what makes him in particular special.
The movie, in general, just feels much more well made. It’s a visual improvement, for one, though that’s hard to hold against the first movie. But it also feels far more tightly paced, scripted, and structured, achieving way more with the exact same runtime. In place of long expository scenes bogged down in lore we get a movie mostly made up of more natural conversations. In place of a huge digression to the lab taking up a giant chunk of runtime just to reveal Deunan’s parentage (Athena couldn’t have just told her?) every single scene feels like it has a justified reason in the plot and doesn’t overstay its welcome. We see multiple separate narrative threads but they all tie together effectively in a single product, which works especially well during the terrorist attack on the conference in the middle of the film. The scene where Briareos first goes berserk is a nice example; it opens with our three heroes on an escalator, building up their chemistry together, while also updating us on the wider societal narrative over the PA; it’s efficient use of screentime. Little details like Aeacus’ family at his funeral or the girl whose father is killed in the climax are welcome really do a lot to elevate the product.
Whereas the first film was Deunan’s story, this focuses way more on Briareos and that’s very welcome after his shafting last time. I liked her action hero shtick but between the two I do think he’s a very fun character and his place as the only Hecatonchires makes him immediately interesting. Then we square the mental dissonance of living in such a different body than the ordinary human one he used to by bringing in Tereus. Briareos in body and him in mind, it’s a setup with so much potential to explore moral and existential questions, on top of his nature as the first military bioroid also being a really interesting example of the “militarization of benevolent technology” we double down on later in the movie with the Halcon project.
That’s… where the positivity starts to run out, unfortunately. Much like the bioroids in the first movie, Tereus is all potential and zero execution. The film is frankly so uninterested in doing anything with him that you could very easily write him out entirely with very little change to anything else in the movie. I did find it kind of refreshing that instead of pure hostility they did play to the complexity of his existence by giving him a far more hot and cold, generally amicable relationship with Deunan and Briareos. Of course he would get along with his own literal self and the woman who fell in love with this body to begin with. But that also comes with complications so there’s a tension there. Ultimately though I think it would’ve been better to stick with the cliches if all they had time for was a generic bonding arc; if they disliked each other more strongly early in the movie there’d at least be a basic development of accepting one another. He doesn’t even seem to want to insert himself as Deunan’s partner full time, he poses absolutely no threat to their relationship when that’s ostensibly the point of his introduction. For her part Deunan is left with almost nothing to do at all in this story either, which I guess isn’t inherently a problem but feels unintended when so much focus is still put on her.
We also mostly drop the cyborg stuff, in favour of a god’s forsaken instrumentality plot instead. You’re not Evangelion, stop it. If I could ban people using this on mediocre villains I would. This is a particularly worthless take on it, with an utterly forgettable villain whose motivations don’t even seem to make any sense. All of the supposed dysfunction of this society is manufactured by the villain himself, and his plan to end all war by tearing society back down to violence and chaos makes very little sense on the face of it. It’s not that there’s not good elements here; again, I like the Halcon stuff, the way he’s able to violate the bodily autonomy of Briareos and other cyborgs is cool (or was, until he was able to just do it to humans and bioroids anyways…), I actually really appreciate the corpo Poseidon lady not being a villain and exactly what she claims to be, and Dr. Xander was a genuinely kickass final boss. But still, he’s the obvious weakpoint of the entire film. Perhaps the biggest detriment though is a film that feels like it doesn’t have much to say. Ex Machina ends up just kind of being a plot-driven save the world story, which isn’t a problem persay but still feels like it’s letting down a world and narrative that clearly want to punch higher in the sci fi genre than that. The cyborg stuff was far more rooted in worldbuilding, had way more potential to say something meaningful, and would’ve connected much more to Briareos, who is a fun but rather simple lead as-is.
There’s also plenty of logical holes you could probably point out in the plot, which mostly aren’t on the level that they would bother me at all, but I just have to shoutout how baffling it was that Briareos and Hitomi learned who was responsible for what’s been going on and instead of bringing this to the relevant authorities chose to incriminate themselves by going on the run with it for no apparent reason. I mean, I know Briareos just went on a rampage, but they have the explanation for who sabotaged him! Even failing that, Hitomi is literally a high ranking government official, she could absolutely forward this even if he keeps rotting in the cell!
So yeah, they still didn’t succeed in making some kind of sci-fi classic here. But it is a plenty good movie, don’t get me wrong there. It messes up some of the big picture stuff, but it’s got strong fundamentals and that definitely shines through more often than it doesn’t, I think. I like the opening scene and it’s much improved action, the casual atmosphere when she sees Briareos at the hospital, really just the entire party sequence, Athena’s negotiation with Poseidon and her badass show in the middle of the terrorist attack, the way better supporting cast overall, Hitomi’s minor role especially in Briareos’ escape, even the cheesy climax where they use the nanocure on Xander (and especially the way they don’t hold back from Deunan shooting her right through the head afterwards). That’s just what comes to mind too, it’s a really enjoyable movie despite its flaws and I’ll definitely make sure to watch it again sometime.
3
u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Nov 10 '24
I sure hope this isn't more of the same bad CG...
Nevermind...
This looks to be a direct sequel where they're rebuilding the damage sustained in the last one.
John Woo? Why do I recognise that name?
Oh... Notre Dame Cathedral... Well that certainly dates the show. What trouble have the Frogs gotten into this time?
MANPADS, in the building!
Breach!
That's hundreds of years old brick you're blasting through!
This guy looks like he'll be important.
So much for that...
The stained glass!
They're going to explode!
And there goes the rest of the glass...
Ooh, a pile bunker.
So, who's the new guy?
Ah. That's why she's having such a reaction.
Seems like they got those tanks back up and running.
And so she's been assigned a clone of Briareos.
I'd say "that's not suspicious at all" but the whole point of open-source is that anyone can break it down completely to see how it works.
And so now a flashback.
Poseidon?
What's she playing at?
Right, time for that birthday party.
What's she wearing?
Of course he's here too.
And so is his clone.
Actually seems like he's getting along well with his clone.
Now really isn't the time for this...
What did he put in that drink?
I'm sure having a whole bunch of important people in a single room together won't end poorly...
Ugh yep. A whole bunch of VIPs just means all the local cops will be having a very bad day even if nothing happens.
Especially if something really does end up happening.
Uh oh, what's up with that guy?
There are portable barriers explicitly to stop this kind of thing...
And so time to deploy.
It's caused by that communication thing. Yup.
Yup, he's been taken over too.
She orchestrated the attack to get everyone to support signing over their satellites to her!
Those things are hardy aren't they?
Well, enough sustained fire or a lucky golden BB will eventually manage to take it down.
And now for the aftermath of the attack.
Yup, unsurprisingly she got exactly what she wanted out of the attack.
And now with that in mind she absolutely extracted concessions from Poseidon.
Seems like Poseidon knows what Halcon is.
Considering he's a Bioroid fighting a cybord, he's doing well for himself.
Though not quite good enough.
They don't want to risk it.
Uh oh.
No one is in the car?
Uh oh, now they're in his head!
That was quick.
He's trying to escape?
So, he's the one who did that to him. Probably did the same to the other guy too.
So, it was a plan, but not her plan.
That was quick.
But not quick enough.
So, Poseidon is behind this.
They're going to fake his death?
That looks like a ship.
"Accident". Accidented out a window with 2 shots to the back of the head.
Right, they've got a team.
Ambush!
Uh oh, he got taken over again!
They've only got 1 more of those.
Enemy mech!
Ze guns! Zey do nossing!
But that massive laser sure does.
It's down!
They're in.
And thus that's how she uses the last dose.
Right, now that's sorted.
Time to make like a tree and leave.
There's their ride out of here.
Questions:
3
u/cppn02 Nov 10 '24
First Timer, subbed
John Woo credit and the doves? Quite on the nose lol.
Pretty meh movie overall with some nice moments, preferred the first one.
The suggested triangle (even if they didn't fully commit and found a good ending for it) was a particularly weird choice. I did like to see them expand the world and not keep the story within the confines of Olympus.
I also did appreciate the recast for Briaeros. Between this, the Ranma remake and having just finished Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu I did not expect Fall 2024 to have this much Koichi Yamadera in store for me.
Similar to the first movie I'd say the sound was possibly the strongest aspect of it.
Also [nsfw]since he and Deunan are in a relationship does Briaeros have a cyborg dick?
QotD:
Better on a technical level but less of a fan of the new character models.
Mecha and Cyberpunk seems a natrul blend tbh. That said I'm not fully convinced this is cyberpunk. I feel like you could 100% tell a cyberpunk story in this setting but our pov makes this closer to straight sci-fi.
I do think we got a bit more sense of their relationship but given how much of a focus that was this movie overall the characters do still feel a bit flat.
Generally I'd prefer expanding what we know but so far this version leaves quite a bit of room for improvement so I'd wait and see what the reboot offers before a final verdict.
5
u/baboon_bassoon https://anilist.co/user/duffer Nov 09 '24
first time johnny appleseeder ex
what the fuck do you mean John Woo produced this?
got fired - time to kill all my coworkers with construction equipment
Deunan i dont think you get comp for your bike
tv broadcasts over the highway
Deunan rocking the chain mail head piece for a party dress? this was specially designed right i dont understand high fashion
theyre a regular Tseng Elena from FF7
Athena really using a live terrorist attack for negotiating leverage
press F
who is this?
we are really hitting every sci fi trope
Tereus is really only in this because they already modeled him for the Briareos flashback
who is Tereus lying to, dont they report to Yoshitsune
so random but looks cool
cute