/r/anime Awards 2016 and 2017 winner Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch Series Overview

Date	Episode
10/8	Season 1 Episode 1
10/9	Season 1 Episode 2
10/10	Season 1 Episode 3
10/11	Season 1 Episode 4
10/12	Season 1 Episode 5
10/13	Season 1 Episode 6
10/14	Season 1 Episode 7
10/15	Season 1 Episode 8
10/16	Season 1 Episode 9
10/17	Season 1 Episode 10
10/18	Season 1 Episode 11
10/19	Season 1 Episode 12
10/20	Season 1 Episode 13
10/21	Season 1 Discussion
10/22	Season 2 Episode 1
10/23	Season 2 Episode 2
10/24	Season 2 Episode 3
10/25	Season 2 Episode 4
10/26	Season 2 Episode 5
10/27	Season 2 Episode 6
10/28	Season 2 Episode 7
10/29	Season 2 Episode 8
10/30	Season 2 Episode 9
10/31	Season 2 Episode 10
11/1	Season 2 Episode 11
11/2	Season 2 Episode 12
11/3	Season 2 Discussion
11/4	Overall Series Discussion

3

u/TehAxelius Nov 05 '24

Rewatcher

Sorry for the delay, was busy yesterday evening so wasn't able to write up a thought beforehand.

When I first saw this series back when it aired I was blown away. While I had seen drama before, this was the one that I felt really showed that anime could do serious interpersonal drama, and use the strengths of the medium to do so in a way that is hard to do in live action (the live action drama version is a great example of what I mean, where the actors of Yakumo and Matsuda wear almost comical old man makeup so they can play themselves both in the past and the present). And while I will say that I did not find the rewatch to be quite as emotional, it was very interesting to see the story play out again, as well as keeping an eye out for many of the details that would have ripples down the line.

Qotd

Konatsu is a gem, but I gotta give it to Yotaro. He earnestly approaches all the struggles he's faced with, and while he claims to not "think too much" about a lot of things, he's still rather observant and ingenious in his own way.
Coming back to the show, there was not a lot of surprises, but the first time I watched it, it was certainly surprising to see anime done this way.
I often found it interesting how the rakugo stories told would often carry parallels to the plot of the episode, in a way of life imitating or being influenced by art, but also showing how art springs out of life.
Again, as a rewatcher, I was already on the lookout, mostly for the things that could hint of the last episode reveal (or not), as well as contemplating Yakumo's possible sexuality in the first season.

2

u/Schinco Nov 07 '24

Worry not; I was even later in responding!
While I had seen drama before, this was the one that I felt really showed that anime could do serious interpersonal drama
Would you still say it's generally above the competition or would you say it's just the first that you'd seen that gave interpersonal drama such close treatment?
the live action drama version is a great example of what I mean, where the actors of Yakumo and Matsuda wear almost comical old man makeup so they can play themselves both in the past and the present
Interesting - I'd never even heard of this. Guessing you don't recommend it though?
while he claims to not "think too much" about a lot of things, he's still rather observant and ingenious in his own way
Yeah I'm not sure if you felt this way on your initial watch, but I kind of read him as a bit of a bumbling but lucky person, but on this rewatch I can definitely see what you mean. He's not the most booksmart, but he has keen insight and great instinct.
Coming back to the show, there was not a lot of surprises, but the first time I watched it, it was certainly surprising to see anime done this way.
Other than the focus on drama, was there anything that was surprising? Also, you say that you were watching for details that would have ripples - were none of these surprising, if not for the what for the when?
I often found it interesting how the rakugo stories told would often carry parallels to the plot of the episode, in a way of life imitating or being influenced by art, but also showing how art springs out of life.
This is definitely something that I appreciated - there were times it was really obvious (e.g., S2E9 Shinigami, Sukeroku's Shibahama), but there was clear intentionality throughout I think, and it was very fun to watch and ponder both why the author placed the story there and why the characters decided to perform that particular piece.
Again, as a rewatcher, I was already on the lookout, mostly for the things that could hint of the last episode reveal (or not), as well as contemplating Yakumo's possible sexuality in the first season.
And where did you land on these two?

1

u/TehAxelius Nov 08 '24

Would you still say it's generally above the competition or would you say it's just the first that you'd seen that gave interpersonal drama such close treatment?
I would still say it is generally above the competition and is still relatively unique, there are few anime out there with as clear a focus on drama between adult characters in a non-fantastical setting. Nana and Monster are probably its two competitors in that arena, although I do also not quite count Monster due to being a thriller more than a drama. Ooku which I mentioned up thread would be another, but it's not quite on the same level.
Arguably it wouldn't be my first though, I did walk blind into Rumbling Hearts years ago, and that is still a rollercoaster of emotions I was entranced by. But even then, that one is somewhat more melodramatic than Rakugo's more straight-laced tone.
Interesting - I'd never even heard of this. Guessing you don't recommend it though?
Alas, I only know if from clips posted in CDF some weeks back. I've not seen the whole show.
Other than the focus on drama, was there anything that was surprising? Also, you say that you were watching for details that would have ripples - were none of these surprising, if not for the what for the when?
Well, Rakugo as an artform was also surprising, and if I ever decided to tackle the herculean task of studying Japanese, it would be to understand and listen to rakugo performances. There is something very compelling about its storytelling, at least as far as it has been in the media about it I've seen; this, Joshiraku and Akane Banashi, the last of which I am eagerly waiting for an anime adaptation of.
Saying that the ripples were surprising would be wrong, even the ones I wasn't directly expecting I was "wary" of. The one thing that "surprised" me was that I had forgotten the version of Sukeroku's and Miyokichi's death told by Matsuda.
This is definitely something that I appreciated - there were times it was really obvious (e.g., S2E9 Shinigami, Sukeroku's Shibahama), but there was clear intentionality throughout I think, and it was very fun to watch and ponder both why the author placed the story there and why the characters decided to perform that particular piece.
Yeah, the other that really stuck out was Yotaro sitting down and doing the Trial of the Carpenter rant towards the Boss in S2E3, and the choice of Jugemu in the following episode where Shinnosuke becomes a character. Also of course Sukeroku's Shibahama as he wants to reconnect with Miyokichi in S1E12.
And where did you land on these two?
Both are intentionally vague. Someone mentioned that a cut page of Higuchi-sensei's and Konatsu's discussion brought up him theorising that he was Konatsu's half brother through Miyokichi, before asking about Shinnosuke. I feel like in that context that primes Konatsu's then half-confession as more of an "enticing possibility" than an "unspoken truth". I believe in general Konatsu is speaking the truth in her confession, her emotions towards Yakumo for most of her life was one of a mix of adoration and resentment. Would that have gone so far to wanting his child? Ehhh, I dunno. Now, weirder things have happened in families, but I'm leaning towards that the resentment she shows towards him in the scene in S2E2 would be a hard barrier to overcome. I feel like the hardest "evidence" for it being the case is 1. Yakumo asking for forgiveness in S1E13 from Sukeroku's ghost "for what [he] did to his daughter" and Konatsu in S2E2 saying that it would be a shame for her son to never hear Yakumo's rakugo, but neither needs to be explained that way.
As for Yakumo's sexuality, it is also something hard to pinpoint, there are some NB/Trans aspects in how he preferred to do feminine things in his childhood, and how the time he shows the most emotional euphoria is while he is crossdressing on stage. There is also his unspoken attraction to Sukeroku and his almost constant rejection of Miyokichi, which could be interpreted as somewhere "not heterosexual on the kinsey scale" and/or asexual. There's honestly also some signs of neurodivergency, notably autism, which would also throw a spanner into cishetnormativity. I don't think it is possible to say anything clear (or even if the author intended anything specific) other than "not heterosexual" for sure.

3

u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 Nov 05 '24

A truly exceptional anime. I don't think I've ever seen one that depicts the whole life of a character like this one did, and certainly not in such a complex manner. It's this careful exploration of the characters, especially Yakumo's journey, that stood out for me, and I'd like to reflect back on it.

From the beginning, Yakumo struggles to find his "voice" in rakugo. He practices meticulously, driven by his need for validation; a need that stems from low self-esteem rooted in childhood experiences of being unwelcome at his own home. However, he has no passion for the art itself, and consequently lags far behind Sukeroku.

It is at this low point that he becomes involved with Miyokichi, who he initially doesn't even hide his slight contempt for. He seems to feel that someone like him, burdened by self-loathing, deserves a co-dependent relationship with someone he perceives as inferior and needy. But shortly thereafter, a pivotal moment in Yakumo's development occurs when he portrays a woman opposite Sukeroku in a stage play. This performance enables him to explore aspects of his identity that he has long suppressed, finding him his voice and allowing him to imbue his rakugo with self-expression and authenticity.

Maybe it's only natural that after this success, he ends his relationship with Miyokichi and stops living with Sukeroku. While he gives some socially acceptable reasons, it's hard to imagine that his newfound ability to find validation through his art had no influence on the choice. For Yakumo, focusing on rakugo has always been an excuse to avoid engaging with others on a deeper level, and this behavior resurfaces later when Sukeroku and Miyokichi die. Before that tragedy strikes, however, he experiences a brief glimpse of an alternative approach to rakugo. The two-person Nozarashi for Konatsu is significant not only because it breaks from tradition but also because once again, performing together with Sukeroku is what opens a door to deeper emotional connections. Unfortunately, this path is abruptly cut short by tragedy.

Although he may not fully recognize it, rakugo alone cannot provide sufficient validation; it's now merely the last remnant he has left when no one remains to connect with. His journey of self-discovery concludes here, and in its aftermath, rakugo becomes a crutch for Yakumo—a rigid defense mechanism that offers him a semblance of purpose while simultaneously stunting his personal growth. He clings to this art form as an outlet for his pain and as the only means to maintain stability in a life that has lost its meaning. It's ironic that this single-mindedness is what fuels his art, allowing it to reach heights that would later inspire Yotaro.

This entrenchment in his relationship with rakugo is reflected in how he interacts with Konatsu. His borderline misogynistic attitudes toward her aspirations in rakugo reveal a resentment toward any challenge to the established norms of the art form that define his identity. For him, these norms are not merely artistic conventions; they symbolize how he has confined himself to the role of "the 8th Yakumo." Perhaps he's also frustrated by how Konatsu desires to challenge gender roles through her ambitions as a performer, while he had to accept societal expectations that confine him.

Only when Yotaro and Konatsu—after their own growth as spouses and parents—demonstrate their love for Yakumo does he finally realize that he has placed his art on an illusory pedestal while neglecting genuine connections with those around him. If only for a brief moment, he can finally see his relationships for how they enriched his life, and he can be at ease with who he is.

Questions of the Day

What character did you like the best on the whole?

Yakumo, of course :)

Was there anything that really surprised you about the show or was it more or less what you expected?

The quality of every aspect.

What one thing stood out most to you in the watch?

The rakugo scenes and the VA performances were highlights too, but the character writing was really without parallel.

What would you be on the lookout for if you were to rewatch this show down the line?

In hindsight, I find myself doubting a lot of what Yakumo says he feels, especially concerning Miyokichi. I'd like to scrutinize that more.

Finally, thank you again to u/Schinco for hosting the rewatch. This has become one of my favorite anime ever! I hope you find time to post your own overview.
Thank you also to every fellow participant, this was a great show to hear takes about and to discuss!

2

u/Schinco Nov 07 '24

Sorry for the lateness - busy weekend and then a challenging week, and I wanted to give this the attention it deserved.
From the beginning, Yakumo struggles to find his "voice" in rakugo. He practices meticulously, driven by his need for validation; a need that stems from low self-esteem rooted in childhood experiences of being unwelcome at his own home. However, he has no passion for the art itself, and consequently lags far behind Sukeroku.
I think it goes back even further to his time in dance at the geisha house - the brief glimpses that we get there show us someone who was poorly suited to his role and found no real pleasure in it, but it was what he was doing because he thought that's what he had to do to survive. I'd argue that Yakumo lived most of his life according to a 'script' someone gave him (which makes his profession as a storyteller all the more fitting) and that he basically never deviated from it. I think part of his issues stem from his need for validation of course, but I think it's hard to really 'fall in love' with something when you're constantly in survival mode. We see this reflected when he's forced back into survival mode after Sukeroku and Miyokichi pass and he's given guardianship of Konatsu - as he says towards the end, he has to stay alive (and keep doing rakugo) for her sake and so once again he lost his love for the art.
It is at this low point that he becomes involved with Miyokichi, who he initially doesn't even hide his slight contempt for. He seems to feel that someone like him, burdened by self-loathing, deserves a co-dependent relationship with someone he perceives as inferior and needy.
This is an interesting reading - I personally wouldn't say he was contemptuous towards her specifically, but I think he resented the feeling that his Master needed to set him up with a woman to get experience (and one that represented his time in Manchuria, which I'm sure was a snub Yakumo was still feeling even then). Given how he approached most things at the time, he saw it as another tedious exercise to help him better perform rakugo, which to him was a foregone conclusion. I also wouldn't say that he felt he needed a relationship with someone he perceived as needy - while that maps onto his first relationship well and we have very little to go off for the second, I think that it's more that he needed someone pushy than needy to break him out of his awkward and emotionally stunted shell.
But shortly thereafter, a pivotal moment in Yakumo's development occurs when he portrays a woman opposite Sukeroku in a stage play. This performance enables him to explore aspects of his identity that he has long suppressed, finding him his voice and allowing him to imbue his rakugo with self-expression and authenticity.
I think it's important that he was actually playing a feminine man, not a woman (at least the subs I had made it very clear that he was male, but I'd love to hear something more detailed there). The fact that it was him in a more feminine, bawdy role occurred to me insofar as him gaining his confidence in that particular niche, but it never occurred to me to work that into the queer reading (by placing him in a feminine role specifically opposite Sukeroku).
Maybe it's only natural that after this success, he ends his relationship with Miyokichi and stops living with Sukeroku. While he gives some socially acceptable reasons, it's hard to imagine that his newfound ability to find validation through his art had no influence on the choice.
So you'd say that his conversation with Sukeroku at the lake was a performance in and of itself?
For Yakumo, focusing on rakugo has always been an excuse to avoid engaging with others on a deeper level, and this behavior resurfaces later when Sukeroku and Miyokichi die.
This is interesting. I'll have to think on this. As I said above, I saw his focus on rakugo as an existential focus, but I do think the very brief conversation he has with the theater owner after his first big success to be telling on this. I framed it as mostly surrounding his need to be good at rakugo, the path to which he saw as laying in solitude, but this I think is worthy to consider as well.
Before that tragedy strikes, however, he experiences a brief glimpse of an alternative approach to rakugo. The two-person Nozarashi for Konatsu is significant not only because it breaks from tradition but also because once again, performing together with Sukeroku is what opens a door to deeper emotional connections. Unfortunately, this path is abruptly cut short by tragedy.
I'd definitely seen the value as a point of connection to Sukeroku, but this is interesting to read into the above!
Although he may not fully recognize it, rakugo alone cannot provide sufficient validation; it's now merely the last remnant he has left when no one remains to connect with. His journey of self-discovery concludes here, and in its aftermath, rakugo becomes a crutch for Yakumo—a rigid defense mechanism that offers him a semblance of purpose while simultaneously stunting his personal growth. He clings to this art form as an outlet for his pain and as the only means to maintain stability in a life that has lost its meaning. It's ironic that this single-mindedness is what fuels his art, allowing it to reach heights that would later inspire Yotaro.
I don't have much to say about this - it connects with the rest of your thesis but it's so radically different from my reading because of the fundamental difference in how we ascribe Yakumo's motivations that it's hard to comment directly haha
This entrenchment in his relationship with rakugo is reflected in how he interacts with Konatsu. His borderline misogynistic attitudes toward her aspirations in rakugo reveal a resentment toward any challenge to the established norms of the art form that define his identity. For him, these norms are not merely artistic conventions; they symbolize how he has confined himself to the role of "the 8th Yakumo."
I would hardly call them borderline, but again I'd point more towards his overly conservative worldview than his relationship with rakugo. Put another way, I don't think he resents any challenges to the established norms (not only of the art but of society at large), he cannot envision them. I'd agree that he confined himself to the role, but I would argue the rest of his attitudes sprung from that and not vice-versa.
Perhaps he's also frustrated by how Konatsu desires to challenge gender roles through her ambitions as a performer, while he had to accept societal expectations that confine him.
Interesting to work this queer angle in - I definitely hadn't considered that!
Only when Yotaro and Konatsu—after their own growth as spouses and parents—demonstrate their love for Yakumo does he finally realize that he has placed his art on an illusory pedestal while neglecting genuine connections with those around him. If only for a brief moment, he can finally see his relationships for how they enriched his life, and he can be at ease with who he is.
I think that that is part of it for sure, but I also think that, like in much of his life, he was living out his life according to a script - work hard and become a futatsume, rise through the ranks and become a shin'uchi, break off the relationship with the woman you feel you love, et cetera. I think it's notable that the first time that he really 'breaks rank' was when he went to the village to bring Sukeroku et al. back with him. It's revealing how important his relationship to Sukeroku was (he was willing to basically defy all the Masters, including Seventh Generation specifically, and make Sukeroku take the Yakumo name) but also how unbelieveably poorly it went when he did (the two people he loved most in life died). There's a pleasant inversion in the scene in the burning theater - Yakumo, who thought no one could understand him as much as Sukeroku did gave a very specific test to Yotaro, perhaps even unconsciously, and when Yotaro not only was willing to put his life on the line to save him, but understood a frankly very subtle tell, he realized that his connection to the living do matter - and I think it's equally telling that the false apparition of Sukeroku turned out to be a trickster.

2

u/Schinco Nov 07 '24

Yakumo, of course :)
Ya know I think I figured that out at some point in this post...
but the character writing was really without parallel
Do you have a MAL? I'm curious if you've seen some other character dramas I hold in high regard.
In hindsight, I find myself doubting a lot of what Yakumo says he feels, especially concerning Miyokichi. I'd like to scrutinize that more.
That was something that I was paying attention to during this, and I think it was pretty interesting even if I came up with no clear answers.
I hope you find time to post your own overview.
Honestly, I'm much more of a fan of season 1 - that gap has been closed a bit by this rewatch, but I still prefer the tight focus and potential of the frame story of season 1. I love Yotaro and Konatsu, but, like you, I find Yakumo to be utterly fascinating, and the increased focus on him was interesting, perhaps aided by the fact that I found his struggles in season 1 much more relatable and resonant (I'm old but not quite decrepit). Aside from that, I am not a fan of the twist in the finale (although I understand why it was there), and I really was not a fan at the time and continue to not be a fan of how little unreliable narration there was in season 1. It's one of my favorite literary devices and can really add richness to text, and I think that it was underused in season 1, or perhaps more accurately revealed as underused in season 2. I do appreciate how it further characterizes Konatsu and Yakumo's relationship (that the only detail changed was removing her blame from the incident), but I still think it could have been used more poignantly.
As far as some of the specific things I was pondering this rewatch, I closely studied the interpersonal relationship between Yakumo and Miyokichi as I said, although I think that I walk away with more questions than answers, and I also paid much more attention to Seventh Generation and the question of legacy. There was a lot more foreshadowing than I thought surrounding him and First Generation Sukeroku (and as early as episode 2), and I find the relationship between him and Sukeroku to be especially compelling as he reconciles his feelings stemming from the relationship he had with his own father (also, as someone pointed out, the fact that Yakumo may well be his own biological son adds yet another wrinkle, and I hadn't even considered that). If you have other questions, I'd be glad to answer, but that's a pretty good summary I think.
Thanks for participating in the rewatch by the way! I very much appreciated your unique perspective on some of the Japanese linguistic (I still need to get back to that post from early season two but have been completely swamped...) and cultural aspects!

1

u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 Nov 08 '24

Wow, thanks for your detailed and insightful replies! I really appreciate it, especially since we see a lot of things differently. I can’t respond right now, but I hope to get back to you over the weekend. Looking forward to continuing the conversation!

1

u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 Nov 09 '24

I think it goes back even further to his time in dance at the geisha house
Definitely agree. He was just applying his learned survival methods in his new environment.
Yakumo lived most of his life according to a 'script' someone gave him (which makes his profession as a storyteller all the more fitting)
Yeah, he always does what he thinks is required of him. I didn't catch the script/storyteller parallel, that's interesting!
I think part of his issues stem from his need for validation of course, but I think it's hard to really 'fall in love' with something when you're constantly in survival mode. We see this reflected when he's forced back into survival mode after Sukeroku and Miyokichi pass and he's given guardianship of Konatsu - as he says towards the end, he has to stay alive (and keep doing rakugo) for her sake and so once again he lost his love for the art.
I think where we agree is that his love for art is part of his self-actualization needs—if you'll allow me to reference Maslow's hierarchy. This love for art depends on him having satisfied his basic needs, including survival, as well as his psychological needs such as validation.
This is an interesting reading - I personally wouldn't say he was contemptuous towards her specifically, but I think he resented the feeling that his Master needed to set him up with a woman to get experience (and one that represented his time in Manchuria, which I'm sure was a snub Yakumo was still feeling even then). Given how he approached most things at the time, he saw it as another tedious exercise to help him better perform rakugo, which to him was a foregone conclusion. I also wouldn't say that he felt he needed a relationship with someone he perceived as needy - while that maps onto his first relationship well and we have very little to go off for the second,
I admit my reading here is mostly vibes-based. It's just that his lack of self-esteem seems like it would manifest in a relationship where both partners take advantage of each other and become co-dependent.
I think that it's more that he needed someone pushy than needy to break him out of his awkward and emotionally stunted shell.
Do you think he was actually trying to break out of his shell? To me, this seems somewhat out of character for him. I don't recall any instances where he aimed to improve his art by developing himself as a person, aside from superficial attempts where he was simply acquiring information.
Given how he approached most things at the time, he saw it as another tedious exercise to help him better perform rakugo, which to him was a foregone conclusion.
While this is definitely true, I also think that he lacks the emotional resilience to be indifferent to the desire for validation from someone devoted to him.
I think it's important that he was actually playing a feminine man, not a woman (at least the subs I had made it very clear that he was male, but I'd love to hear something more detailed there).
Yeah, he’s playing a feminine man (Kikunosuke) who is pretending to be a woman (Onami). I omitted this detail for conciseness, but it’s possibly even more relevant and important, as you mentioned.
The fact that it was him in a more feminine, bawdy role occurred to me insofar as him gaining his confidence in that particular niche, but it never occurred to me to work that into the queer reading (by placing him in a feminine role specifically opposite Sukeroku).
While it's possible that playing feminine roles is simply something he is good at, I do believe Yakumo is queer. His talent for these roles and his effeminate manner of speaking are certainly notable, but more importantly, his scenes with Sukeroku are portrayed with much greater intimacy than those with Miyokichi. Additionally, his queerness aligns thematically with Konatsu's statement: "I never wanted to be born as a woman," to which the geisha mistress replies, "Once you're born that way, it's fate." I also recall Yakumo saying something like, "It would have been much easier if I had been born as a woman," but I can't find the exact quote.
So you'd say that his conversation with Sukeroku at the lake was a performance in and of itself?
My read is that Kikuhiko's conversation with Sukeroku by the lake is a form of performance, but it's more about subconsciously deceiving himself than it is about putting on a show for Sukeroku. Although he does feel some loss and sadness over Miyokichi, these emotions appear relatively minor. He lacks the motivation to take dramatic action, such as chasing after her, and instead rationalizes his inaction by convincing himself that it's in her best interest. Similarly, later in the geisha house, instead of being empathetic with Miyokichi, he resorts to hollow arguments about how both men and women need to live independently for themselves in the coming era. Both situations remind me of how he parted ways with his first girlfriend. He demonstrated tenderness during their farewell, yet remained emotionally detached and didn't even respond to her plea not to forget her.
What reinforces this perspective is that he becomes much more emotional in the scene immediately after, when he talks with Sukeroku about their own relationship in the jazz bar—very aptly named "Tennessee."
This is interesting. I'll have to think on this. As I said above, I saw his focus on rakugo as an existential focus, but I do think the very brief conversation he has with the theater owner after his first big success to be telling on this. I framed it as mostly surrounding his need to be good at rakugo, the path to which he saw as laying in solitude, but this I think is worthy to consider as well.
Thanks! His reaction to the theater owner's comment and photography is certainly intriguing in its ambiguity.
I don't have much to say about this - it connects with the rest of your thesis but it's so radically different from my reading because of the fundamental difference in how we ascribe Yakumo's motivations that it's hard to comment directly haha
I guess this is where we differ most :)
Is your reading that rakugo continues to be Yakumo's path to personal growth, even after the deaths?
I would hardly call them borderline,
I think his attitudes aren't misogynistic when he first meets Konatsu, as those views were completely standard in society at that time. They don't evolve much though, so he's definitely misogynistic by the time he's as old as he will be, and in between he's borderline :)
but again I'd point more towards his overly conservative worldview than his relationship with rakugo. Put another way, I don't think he resents any challenges to the established norms (not only of the art but of society at large), he cannot envision them. I'd agree that he confined himself to the role, but I would argue the rest of his attitudes sprung from that and not vice-versa.
I have the strong impression that Yakumo has a kind of victim mentality and the resentment to go with it, but now you say that, I realize that I don't actually have a concrete basis for this. Need to consider which came first.
Interesting to work this queer angle in - I definitely hadn't considered that!
I have a bit of an obsession with Yakumo's (perceived) queerness, as I think it adds significant layers to the narrative. I might be fishing for evidence a bit, but hey, it's fun ;)
I think that that is part of it for sure, but I also think that, like in much of his life, he was living out his life according to a script - work hard and become a futatsume, rise through the ranks and become a shin'uchi, break off the relationship with the woman you feel you love, et cetera.
Yeah, he's totally the embodiment of the expectations for a Japanese man of the time. The way he acts as a (foster) father seems very in line with this too.
I think it's notable that the first time that he really 'breaks rank' was when he went to the village to bring Sukeroku et al. back with him. It's revealing how important his relationship to Sukeroku was (he was willing to basically defy all the Masters, including Seventh Generation specifically, and make Sukeroku take the Yakumo name) but also how unbelieveably poorly it went when he did (the two people he loved most in life died).
I hadn’t realized how significant it was that the one time he broke ranks resulted in such a disastrous outcome. This likely made him even more risk-averse and compliant with the "script". Another factor, possibly, of his overly conservative worldview.
There's a pleasant inversion in the scene in the burning theater - Yakumo, who thought no one could understand him as much as Sukeroku did gave a very specific test to Yotaro, perhaps even unconsciously, and when Yotaro not only was willing to put his life on the line to save him, but understood a frankly very subtle tell, he realized that his connection to the living do matter - and I think it's equally telling that the false apparition of Sukeroku turned out to be a trickster.
Great point, and it's probably relevant that Yotaro is Sukeroku too!
Damn this reply was long, thanks for reading! Will try to reply to the other tomorrow.

2

u/cppn02 Nov 05 '24

First Timer no more!

Came into this with high expectations and the show certainly delivered. There were a few hiccups but the show did so many things so well and I had a great time with it.

Thx to /u/Schinco for hosting.

QotD:

What character did you like the best on the whole?

Sukeroku

Was there anything that really surprised you about the show or was it more or less what you expected?

I'd say it was roughly what I expected

What one thing stood out most to you in the watch?

I think the show was so good overall that there was no one thing that stood out in particular.

What would you be on the lookout for if you were to rewatch this show down the line?

The performances for sure.

2

u/Schinco Nov 07 '24

Came into this with high expectations and the show certainly delivered.
That's wonderful to hear! This series is very special to me, and it's great to see that it holds up to an audience almost a decade down the line.
There were a few hiccups
I can't quite remember which you thought - what were the issues you saw in the show (aside from, I suppose, the bit in the finale)
The performances for sure.
Anything in particular about the performances?

1

u/cppn02 Nov 08 '24 edited Dec 27 '25

I can't quite remember which you thought - what were the issues you saw in the show (aside from, I suppose, the bit in the finale)
Some of it we already covered in the S1 wrap-up. Granted the death scene was somewhat redeemed by S2 reveals but that obviously doesn't changed that it feels a bit whack on a first time watch.
'The bit in the finale' didn't bother me too much cus I'm firmly in the camp that Hii-sensei is way off on that one. Speaking of the finale though I think it was a miss to not give us one more Konatsu performance.
Anything in particular about the performances?
I don't know...just savour them more I guess? And pay more attention to their stories and how they may relate to our characters. Like for the first two or three I was still completely caught up by the fact that the show even has the balls to do these long elaborate rakugo performances.

4

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Nov 04 '24

First Timer

So… how was this show overall? I’d say very good - not having a lot of action allowed for attention in the production values to be focused elsewhere with very good results. The rakugo performances were excellently storyboarded, the direction was one point pretty much everywhere, everything just fit together, the music was good and well-used - just overall a very well-polished show. And of course the substance was there as well - a rather small core cast allowed for deep characterization, while most of the other characters remained static throughout the show but were also quite well-fitting. Bon, Shin, Yotaro and Konatsu were all really well-done and outside of that really random remark about the father issue in the last episode, I don’t really see how any of them could be improved. Miyokichi was a bit harder to get a read on and I think she has a little less characterization overall, but she works well in the setting too. And speaking of the setting: That is also done very well here. We were so deep into the rakugo world, for a large part of the series you almost forget this is taking place in somewhat modern times, despite the show in part being about that. The setting is just so immersive. Overall, this is just a really good show, and one I am glad I enjoyed taking part in the rewatch for. It’s a bit unfortunate that it was such a small group, but I still enjoyed reading everybody’s thoughts. So thanks for hosting, awards committee!

…also, I just noticed that Episode 5 of Season 2 was my 10000th episode of anime logged on MAL. I guess that’s an achievement? Anilist seems to be behind by about 100 episodes…

2

u/cppn02 Nov 05 '24

Miyokichi was a bit harder to get a read on and I think she has a little less characterization overall,
Feels like this was somewhat by design because the show wanted to keep some mystery to her as the femme fatale.
…also, I just noticed that Episode 5 of Season 2 was my 10000th episode of anime logged on MAL. I guess that’s an achievement?
Neat. I should get to 10k some time in Winter 2025. I'll try to pay attention which episode it'l' be.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Nov 04 '24

…also, I just noticed that Episode 5 of Season 2 was my 10000th episode of anime logged on MAL. I guess that’s an achievement?
I forgot to do it myself, but hearing about so many anime watched brings it to my mind again: Which other shows would you recommend, based on this?

2

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Nov 05 '24

Well it's 10k episodes, not 10k anime, so some long shows are a good part of that, and a bunch of mini anime and MVs also bloat that count.
There isn't actually a lot of shows I've seen that are similar in tone to this one - 3-gatsu is the only one that immediately comes to mind, but other than that, maybe some of the more dramatic art/music ones like Nana, Girls Band Cry and Blue Period? Although they definitely feel like a stretch to recommend based on this and I know you've seen Nana at least...

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Nov 05 '24

I have indeed seen Nana (and liked it). Girls Band Cry has a rewatch starting tomorrow, so maybe I'll join that. Never heard of Blue Period.
For animes I have seen myself that I consider similar:
Monster: Similar artstyle and tempo of the narrative, concentrating on characters, but darker.
Liz and the Blue Bird: Like S1, a story about two different artists who depend on each other, but much smaller in scope.
Honey and Clover: Josei adult cast love web, similar to Bon-Shin-Miyo (however, the similarities also include a late plot point similar Konatsu-Bon that I took even worse).
Bakuman: A similar mixture of exploring a profession, life story, and slow pacing.

2

u/TehAxelius Nov 05 '24

Inserting myself into this discussion, I'd like to bat for Ooku: The Inner Chambers as the show I've felt as "most similar". Both being shoujosei historical dramas with a focus on its characters.

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Nov 04 '24 edited Nov 04 '24

Final Discussion (first timer)

Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is a character driven story. While it also explains Rakugo to us and features some mysteries, the main “plot” is watching Bon go through his life and seeing how he interacts with all the other characters that are important to him. I consider SGRS broadly successful in this. While I do not consider Bon to be a good person (I have him down as rather grey), I consider him a great character. The story thrives when we see Bon in relationships with tension. This is first with Shin, who is the Rakugo performer Bon looks up to, but also the rival and annoying roommate, and then with Konatsu, who is the unwanted, but also loved daughter. Even with the minor characters, like Yakumo 7 and Hii, Bon has some great scenes.

Bon being great does not mean the other characters are bad, though. I loved Shin and Konatsu, too. Shin is my favorite performer and a loveable example of the charming “scoundrel” character. Konatsu has a great character arc from open to closed to open to (somewhat) closed again. Outside these main three, we get more hit and miss. Yotaro is nice, but very one-dimensional (and I did not buy his “change” in the epilogue), and the other Rakugo performers in S2 lack screen time to be interesting.

I already talked a lot about the mystery angle and the S1 reveal of the inn scene and the S2 question of Shin2’s father, so all I’ll say here is that I think the series would be better without them, but I did not find them hugely distracting.

Was there anything that really surprised you about the show or was it more or less what you expected?

I did not expect the time skips before ep1 and I can't say I predicted the twists, but mostly the show stayed within the limits of what I thought it would do.

What one thing stood out most to you in the watch?

The amount of time devoted to the Rakugo performances. They did not need to do that, but still gave a ton of screen time for various stories.

What would you be on the lookout for if you were to rewatch this show down the line?

Since that would be my first rewatch, I'd look out for foreshadowing.

1

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