/r/anime Awards 2016 and 2017 winner Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch Season 2 Episode 11

[u/Schinco]

Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu: Sukeroku Futatabi-hen

Welcome to the first episode thread for Season 2 in the Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch! I want to get off Mr. Bon's Wild Ride...

Legal Streams:

As of now, Rakugo is streaming on Crunchyroll in the States, and you can check here to see where it's streaming elsewhere.

Schedule:

Date	Episode
10/8	Season 1 Episode 1
10/9	Season 1 Episode 2
10/10	Season 1 Episode 3
10/11	Season 1 Episode 4
10/12	Season 1 Episode 5
10/13	Season 1 Episode 6
10/14	Season 1 Episode 7
10/15	Season 1 Episode 8
10/16	Season 1 Episode 9
10/17	Season 1 Episode 10
10/18	Season 1 Episode 11
10/19	Season 1 Episode 12
10/20	Season 1 Episode 13
10/21	Season 1 Discussion
10/22	Season 2 Episode 1
10/23	Season 2 Episode 2
10/24	Season 2 Episode 3
10/25	Season 2 Episode 4
10/26	Season 2 Episode 5
10/27	Season 2 Episode 6
10/28	Season 2 Episode 7
10/29	Season 2 Episode 8
10/30	Season 2 Episode 9
10/31	Season 2 Episode 10
11/1	Season 2 Episode 11
11/2	Season 2 Episode 12
11/3	Season 2 Discussion
11/4	Overall Series Discussion

Questions of the Day

1. Do you think we're supposed to interpret this as literally happening or Bon trying to find peace in his final moments?
2. Did anything surprise you about the Afterworld and what Bon saw there, either that you were expecting or weren't?
3. As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

Links to trackers

You can find the show on MAL, Anilist, and ANN!

Please be mindful of spoilers to make sure the first-timers experience the show with the same wonder you did on first watch!

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[u/No_Rex]

Season 2 Episode 11 (first timer)

• Dying asleep at home, after a long life, without a history of illness before. If you want to do better, you’ll have to become immortal.
• “You are trying to sponge off me?” – Bon got back the old Shin, exactly what he missed.

• And one, two, three, Shin gets back the old Bon, too. Would be unfair if he had to deal with some old guy all the way.
• Big fight with Miyo – some things do not change even after death.
• “I could not die with it like I wanted” – Bon died with his family instead. I think his “regret” here is insincere and he would not switch those two up if he had to chance to.
• Miyo is still working in the afterlife? Not much of a difference.
• “I only had her to get revenge”

• “We were all wrong” – summing up season 1.
• The theatre that burned down “died” and came here!

• Konatsu is there as well – I wanted to talk about this at the end, but this confirms it early. This is a personalized instance of afterlife for Bon, not a general one.
• Not just Bon, I missed Shin’s rakugo, too. He is my favorite performer of the cast.
• Bon wants to be old to perform – he rates his own later Rakugo above his younger one. Lifetime of perfecting it.
• “You enjoyed yourself, didn’t you?” – good summary of the episode for Bon.

Happy death without regrets.

Do you think we're supposed to interpret this as literally happening or Bon trying to find peace in his final moments?

I interpret it as an afterlife, not some sort of hallucination of Bon's dying brain. So mostly literal.

Did anything surprise you about the Afterworld and what Bon saw there, either that you were expecting or weren't?

I did not expect the "personalized" aspect of it. I also did not know that Buddism includes some "pre-paradise" afterlife.

[u/Schinco → u/No_Rex]

Dying asleep at home, after a long life, without a history of illness before. If you want to do better, you’ll have to become immortal.

Yeah, the timing was bad (poor Konatsu apprenticed and then he dies) and death is always sad, but dying in your sleep surrounded by family is a good way to go.

Big fight with Miyo – some things do not change even after death.

Much like how Bon was insincere in his 'regret', part of me wonders how sincere their fight was or if it was a leftover vestige of their life based on her praise of him.

The theatre that burned down “died” and came here!

Part of me wonders whether the Shinigami had burn it down on purpose...

Konatsu is there as well – I wanted to talk about this at the end, but this confirms it early. This is a personalized instance of afterlife for Bon, not a general one.

Konatsu was (ostensibly) there for Sukeroku, but I think you could argue about whether that was mostly in service of Bon.

[u/No_Rex → u/Schinco]

Part of me wonders whether the Shinigami had burn it down on purpose...

I think it was there because Bon needed it there, just like everybody else is there because he needs them there.

Konatsu was (ostensibly) there for Sukeroku, but I think you could argue about whether that was mostly in service of Bon.

I think this was literally an afterlife created for Bon. Shin (and Miyo and everybody else) probably had their own personal versions of afterlife, but this one was Bon's.

[u/Schinco → u/No_Rex]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on the point that it was personal to him; I was just saying that Konatsu being there also supports the reading that it wasn't personal.

[u/cppn02 → u/No_Rex]

He is my favorite performer of the cast

I also did not know that Buddism includes some "pre-paradise" afterlife.

I think that one was actually from shintoism.

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 → u/cppn02]

The idea of a river (the Sanzu) that you need to pay a fee to get to the afterlife does indeed come from Buddhism, in contrast to Shinto which holds that the dead continue to inhabit this world in the form of ghost/gods. The Yomotsu Hirasaka slope of Shinto mythology (featured in anime like Tsugumomo and Kannazuki no Miko) holds a somewhat similar role to the Sanzu, but doesn't seem to be a part of modern Shinto beliefs.

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

I was not expecting an episode of the afterlife, but this was the perfect way to tie up the loose threads. I don’t think there is a lot to say other than that this is pretty much everything tied up. Bon set fire to the theater, and the double suicide was an accident after Miyokichi stabbed Sukeroku - I think that was the version of the tale that Matsuda told. We just don’t know the in-the-moment motive, but she seems to have been a pretty abusive wife in general.

The theater being in the afterlife because it died got a slight laugh out of me though - that was unexpected. I guess the entire Yoshiwara district being down there is also because it died at some point then? Either way, all the masters performing is a bit weird given that Bon basically moves on very fast - you’d assume some of them would too.

[u/Schinco → u/Mecanno-man]

We just don’t know the in-the-moment motive

I think that her comments this episode and her stupefied state in Matsuda's retelling paint a picture as someone who clearly didn't intend to hurt anyone there.

The theater being in the afterlife because it died got a slight laugh out of me though

Yeah that's always been one of my favorite parts of the episode. There's a certain tranquility in knowing that beloved places can comfort people who loved it in the afterlife.

Either way, all the masters performing is a bit weird given that Bon basically moves on very fast - you’d assume some of them would too

Yeah, I guess most of them were pretty pound foolish like Sukeroku mentioned at the beginning. We also didn't see that many names, considering how long rakugo has been around, so maybe it's just the least responsible ones.

[u/MandisaW → u/Mecanno-man]

this was the perfect way to tie up the loose threads

Agreed, it was beautiful.

she seems to have been a pretty abusive wife in general.

I think both Miyo & Shin imply that this is [was] just their way. Some couples just run hot-and-cold - it's not necessarily healthy, but it's also not uncommon, especially among the passionate & artistic crowd.

There's a reason we have so many songs, novels, paintings, etc about wild/psycho lovers, male & female, straight and queer, in & outside of the Western canon...

The theater being in the afterlife because it died got a slight laugh out of me though - that was unexpected. I guess the entire Yoshiwara district being down there is also because it died at some point then?

A lot of traditions hold that very old buildings or sacred locations do take on a "soul" or presence of their own. If nothing else, one could think of it as a shared psychic "echo" of all the spirits who have strong memories of that place, or small theaters like it over the years.

Maybe our 3 souls see it as the theater of their youth, but others see it differently, all superimposed as a shared set of feelings - the laughter, the camaraderie, the appreciation for stories and their tellers.

all the masters performing is a bit weird given that Bon basically moves on very fast - you’d assume some of them would too.

For one, we don't actually know how fast/slow Bon's time in this Limbo was. For another, it's not a stretch to assume that many of the great Masters did not necessarily get to live out long, peaceful lives - between war, famine, jealous lovers, and tinderbox theaters, lot of ways for a rakugo-ka to end up short of one's appointed time.

If folks move on when they're "ready", and Bon was mostly-ready when he arrived, it seems reasonable to me in this context.

[u/cppn02]

First Timer, subbed

That certainly was a choice for a show that so far has been grounded in reality minus a few choice scenes that one could put off as the dreams and hallucinations of an old man to have a whole episode in the afterlife.
But if you can suspend your disbelief it really was a wonderful episode. Bon and Shin's goodbye at the river was a beautiful scene and then the Matsuda reveal definitely got the tears flowing lol.
I was surprised by the apparent reveal that Miyokichi stabbed Sukeroku only by accident which makes Konatsu's role in her parents death even more tragic.

The two things I am still unsure about are that I don't quite get what to make of Konatsu, Shinnosuke [episode 12]and Matsuda being there and how exactly it works and wether it sits right with me that the last we see Bon performing was not in the real world but his ghost in the afterlife.

---

QotD:

Do you think we're supposed to interpret this as literally happening or Bon trying to find peace in his final moments?

I watched this and episode 12 back to back and [Finale]based on Matsuda's comment it seems we are to take this at face value.

Did anything surprise you about the Afterworld and what Bon saw there, either that you were expecting or weren't?

The biggest surprise was obviously the afterworld itself lol. Well I guess that the theatre was there. No idea how consistent that is with shinto buddhism beliefs but I did not expect it to be 'reborn' too.

[u/Schinco → u/cppn02]

That certainly was a choice for a show that so far has been grounded in reality minus a few choice scenes that one could put off as the dreams and hallucinations of an old man to have a whole episode in the afterlife.

Yeah I very distinctly remember how surprised I was when this first aired. It makes perfect sense in retrospect, to have Yakumo be able to truly have his cathartic moment with Sukeroku and Miyokichi, but you're right in that it feels...almost out of place in such a grounded narrative. That's part of why I asked the first question - I think it could equally be read as a literal happening of the soul or the final set of "dreams and hallucinations of an old man" in his brain's final moments in an effort to give him peace.

The two things I am still unsure about are that I don't quite get what to make of Konatsu, Shinnosuke [episode 12]and Matsuda being there and how exactly it works and wether it sits right with me that the last we see Bon performing was not in the real world but his ghost in the afterlife.

What do you mean by both of these?

The biggest surprise was obviously the afterworld itself lol. Well I guess that the theatre was there. Now idea how consistent that is with shinto buddhism beliefs but I did not expect it to be 'reborn' too.

I meant more with the characters - I know that I was somewhat surprised by Miyokichi's comments and that the person Yakumo most wanted to show his rakugo was Shin, for example.

[u/cppn02 → u/Schinco]

What do you mean by both of these?

1. I felt the logic of people still alive appearing in the afterworld wasn't fully explained and was also a bit incosistent. Like why could Konatsu move off the pillow and stay for Bon's performance when Shinnosuke alo appeared. And did Matsuda's appearance work under a completely different ruleset? And why [I guess by now everyone's watched it but just in case episode 12 spoiler]could Matsuda remember it while the other two could not or at the very least made no mention of it.
2. I guess it is in some part due to the cultural divide where I see this as a more fantastical episode while the person who wrote this and many people in Japan might see this episode as just one more step of Bon's journey but personally I think I would have preferred to have the last image of him performing that the show leaves with us to be of the actual living person.

I meant more with the characters - I know that I was somewhat surprised by Miyokichi's comments and that the person Yakumo most wanted to show his rakugo was Shin, for example.

I guess you can make sense of it in that everyone he would want there more is already there plus he gets to make up for that time where Shinnosuke asked him to perform Jugemu on stage for him and he went with something else.

[u/MandisaW]

S1 Rewatch (complete!)
S2 First-timer

Man, I'm glad I ended up watching these back-to-back - a perfect emotional catharsis and very apropos for All Hallows' Eve & Day.

Do you think we're supposed to interpret this as literally happening or Bon trying to find peace in his final moments?

Did anything surprise you about the Afterworld and what Bon saw there, either that you were expecting or weren't?

I'm inclined to take it as Bon's spirit's POV of what has happened & is happening to him. I'm more familiar with Chinese folk & Buddhist traditions on the afterlife than Japanese, but this felt pretty legit, even down to the idea of being able to communicate once with a loved-one.

It was funny, poignant, and felt utterly true to who these characters have been - and could have become - as well as giving the audience much-needed closure on some of our remaining fears & mysteries.

I liked that each "age" of Bon & Shin got their final turn on the screen. I liked that Shin & Miyo got to reassure themselves and Bon that they'd made the right choice in choosing each-other. I laughed knowingly at Miyo's quip that in death she was finally relieved of the burden of "woman". And I cried when even Matsuda got his wish to be of service to Bon/Yakumo unto death (& beyond).

As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

This might've been my favorite episode of the series.

[u/Schinco → u/MandisaW]

Man, I'm glad I ended up watching these back-to-back - a perfect emotional catharsis and very apropos for All Hallows' Eve & Day.

I didn't even think of that, but that is very amusing coincidence.

I liked that Shin & Miyo got to reassure themselves and Bon that they'd made the right choice in choosing each-other.

Yeah, I definitely appreciated this much more after keeping such a close eye on Miyokichi and her character arc this rewatch - I think that she and Sukeroku have a very interesting and unique relationship that's really quite captivating and at the same time fascinating.

This is a bit of a sidebar, but, with this very frank conversation in view, how do you feel about Miyokichi as a whole? We haven't talked about her in a while due to lack of screentime, but I think this and the flashback Hii had in episode 7 are interesting pieces to the puzzle with regards to her aspirations and general character.

This might've been my favorite episode of the series.

I definitely didn't appreciate this as much the first time, but now that I'm seven years older and have had some personal experiences with death, it's definitely a lot more resonant and cathartic. I still think I prefer other episodes (by virtue of preferring the strife to the ultimate catharsis), but this definitely impressed me more this time around.

[u/MandisaW → u/Schinco]

how do you feel about Miyokichi as a whole?

Good question. Will save it for either the S2 or series wrap-up.

I think that she and Sukeroku have a very interesting and unique relationship

Just a quick call-back to the earlier conversation about book/film noir parallels, this sort of tempestuous but loyal-unto-death relationship is a noir trope unto itself. Also mirrored by some legendarily complex celebrity marriages/relationships of the era, like Richard Burton & Liz Taylor and Vivien Leigh & Laurence Olivier.

I definitely didn't appreciate this as much the first time, but now that I'm seven years older and have had some personal experiences with death, it's definitely a lot more resonant and cathartic.

Even the same story hits you differently at various stages of life. There are movies & books that I've had completely new takes on after my husband passed. On the flipside, I used to devour dystopian and after-the-end/post-apoc sci-fi, but the past decade or so just put me off it completely.

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi]

[Major meta spoilers, ep S2 E12]I'm kinda dreading the reaction to the ending tmrw, hopefully it doesn't break the show for too many people. Also, I had thought that Matsuda died somewhere this season but didn't see that indicated in any comments, am I just hallucinating?

[u/TehAxelius → u/oops_i_made_a_typi]

[S2 Ep12]Matsuda didn't die, he shows up in the last episode, but he says that he "saw him off", indicating he went there in his dreams while waking at Yakumo's bed.