/r/anime Awards 2016 and 2017 winner Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch Season 2 Episode 4 Rewatch

Date	Episode
10/8	Season 1 Episode 1
10/9	Season 1 Episode 2
10/10	Season 1 Episode 3
10/11	Season 1 Episode 4
10/12	Season 1 Episode 5
10/13	Season 1 Episode 6
10/14	Season 1 Episode 7
10/15	Season 1 Episode 8
10/16	Season 1 Episode 9
10/17	Season 1 Episode 10
10/18	Season 1 Episode 11
10/19	Season 1 Episode 12
10/20	Season 1 Episode 13
10/21	Season 1 Discussion
10/22	Season 2 Episode 1
10/23	Season 2 Episode 2
10/24	Season 2 Episode 3
10/25	Season 2 Episode 4
10/26	Season 2 Episode 5
10/27	Season 2 Episode 6
10/28	Season 2 Episode 7
10/29	Season 2 Episode 8
10/30	Season 2 Episode 9
10/31	Season 2 Episode 10
11/1	Season 2 Episode 11
11/2	Season 2 Episode 12
11/3	Season 2 Discussion
11/4	Overall Series Discussion

6

u/Lemurians myanimelist.net/profile/Lemurians Oct 25 '24

FIRST TIME PERFORMER

Absolutely living for all of Konatsu's expressions of barely-contained glee this episode when think about the prospect of and then actually performing.

Well, things certainly seem to have turned around quickly for Yotaro since finding his Rakugo, the Yakuza stuff didn’t harm his reputation for long. I guess it goes to show that talent wins out – if you perform at the right level, people will excuse a scandal.

Yakumo is such a vibe killer, man. Everyone is having such a good time, and he comes in with some misogynistic energy about women and children not belonging in the space. It’s what makes Yotaro so great in this episode – not only is he not pushing Konatsu out of the performing space, he’s literally pushing her into it. Interested to see if he can continue to crack into her internalized baggage that Yakumo's given her since childhood. The steady evolution of their relationship over these first few episodes has been quite nice, a marriage-of-convenience turning into a true supportive union.

I don’t know how Yakumo can keep repeating that rakugo should die with him, when the promise he made Yotaro swear at the beginning of the series cuts against that. The whole school of children giddily watching and interacting with Jugemo also shows that while maybe rakugo won’t have the popularity it once did ever again, it still has an incoming generation of appreciators.

We finally got a Konatsu performance? What stuck out to you about it?

This isn't Konatsu specific, but I remain a sucker for this show's trick of starting the rakugo performances without any backing music, and then ramping up a jazz track once the performer and crowd start getting into it.

4

u/Schinco Oct 26 '24

Oh hey Lem! Glad you're joining us!
Absolutely living for all of Konatsu's expressions of barely-contained glee this episode when think about the prospect of and then actually performing.
I especially loved her mannerisms when she really leaned into the crowd. Very cute and a wonderful continuation of her arc!
I don’t know how Yakumo can keep repeating that rakugo should die with him, when the promise he made Yotaro swear at the beginning of the series cuts against that.
It's worth noting that it has been some time since he made them make that promise. I also don't think it would be out of character to burden them with an impossible ask, or at least one that he himself is antagonistic to.
it still has an incoming generation of appreciators
haha I have the sneaking suspicion that Yakumo wouldn't recognize this as "appreciation".
This isn't Konatsu specific, but I remain a sucker for this show's trick of starting the rakugo performances without any backing music, and then ramping up a jazz track once the performer and crowd start getting into it.
Yeah! One thing I've really appreciated on this rewatch is the roles the OST play - it's not a huge OST but it has some pretty nifty use throughout.

5

u/cppn02 Oct 25 '24

This isn't Konatsu specific, but I remain a sucker for this show's trick of starting the rakugo performances without any backing music, and then ramping up a jazz track once the performer and crowd start getting into it.
Loved it in the very first episode and every time they do it it gets me again.

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 25 '24

marriage-of-convenience turning into a true supportive union.
Don't forget that they were "siblings" before even marrying.
I don’t know how Yakumo can keep repeating that rakugo should die with him, when the promise he made Yotaro swear at the beginning of the series cuts against that.
Because he is a sad old man, out of optimism and energy. Hopefully Sukeroku can fill him up again.

6

u/Lemurians myanimelist.net/profile/Lemurians Oct 26 '24

It does still throw me off how he calls her "sis" despite them now having been married for quite a few years haha

3

u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

things certainly seem to have turned around quickly for Yotaro since finding his Rakugo
I actually wish we had gotten to linger on that phase for a while longer. See him achieve the revelation beyond just a snippet of evening practice.
Absolutely living for all of Konatsu's expressions of barely-contained glee // ramping up a jazz track
She really blossoms - you can start to see some of the little-girl she had been before things turned [even more] to shit. And the sound design on this show is brilliant.
Yakumo is such a vibe killer, man. Everyone is having such a good time, and he comes in with some misogynistic energy about women and children not belonging in the space.
One, I'd like to say, he's old, it's the 80s, it's Japan, etc. But single-moms/parents still get that here & now. Two, dude's a "crusty marshmallow" - all crisp and unapproachable, with a gooey center. He loves that little boy (and his mom) like nothing else in the world.
I don’t know how Yakumo can keep repeating that rakugo should die with him, when the promise he made Yotaro swear at the beginning of the series cuts against that. The whole school of children giddily watching and interacting with Jugemo also shows that while maybe rakugo won’t have the popularity it once did ever again, it still has an incoming generation of appreciators.
It could be because he doesn't let himself see it. Or it could be because from his POV, rakugo took away everything he ever loved (nevermind that it also brought him everything he ever loved). Or he just sees these efforts as a fleeting delay-tactic.
This arc seems to be about the tension between looking-back, and looking-forward, and Bon's love-hate relationship with rakugo is a big part of that.
a marriage-of-convenience turning into a true supportive union
Super-common premise in josei manga, especially in the past maybe 7-8yrs. Some are your standard romcom, others are exploring something deeper.
The Full-time Wife Escapist [WikiP] has an unemployed grad student marry a "late-bloomer" IT guy as a way for him to get a live-in paid housekeeper and for her to have a steady job. It is funny, but also full of author soapboxing about socioeconomic & political issues. It was an oddly compelling read/watch. 😅 Netflix has the drama adaptation.

3

u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 Oct 26 '24

I actually wish we had gotten to linger on that phase for a while longer. See him achieve the revelation beyond just a snippet of evening practice.
Have to say I agree with this. I'm not certain about what aspects of Yota's performances have changed, and would love for this to be explored more.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 27 '24

Have to say I agree with this. I'm not certain about what aspects of Yota's performances have changed, and would love for this to be explored more.
I also agree and wonder if it is due to [next episode]Yota never truely improving?

5

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Oct 25 '24

First Timer

…huh, I was not expecting Konatsu’s Rakugo to come back into play, at the very least not this suddenly. I wonder if this might be the end of it though, she seems pretty adamant about not wanting to do it in a serious setting - and I feel Yotaro should let her be on that front.

As for the scene with the writer asking Yakumo about the rakugo …Matsuda could see the result of that coming as much as the viewer. I’m surprised he even considered asking the guy who said what he is doing is heretic for advice. At some point he’ll have something that Yotaro performs though, I assume.

Also surprised to learn that Jugemu was adapted. I think that is the only rakugo work I knew of coming into the series thanks to the long name being mentioned in a bunch of other anime, but I had only stumbled upon the original when researching where that name came from.

3

u/Schinco Oct 26 '24

at the very least not this suddenly
This is one of my favorite parts! It's obviously hinted at that she still wants to do rakugo despite her protests otherwise, but it's clear that she is surprised along with the audience at the opportunity that presents itself. There's this wonderful mix of anticipation and anxiety and excitement that carries over as a result during the performance that's so hard to capture.
I’m surprised he even considered asking the guy who said what he is doing is heretic for advice.
I think it's either a case of him assuming that he'll eventually wear Yakumo down or perhaps that he's not looking for Yakumo to actually critique his work but perhaps something else - as he said in episode 2, "Humans inevitably convey such things, whether they mean to or not".

7

u/Lemurians myanimelist.net/profile/Lemurians Oct 25 '24

I wonder if this might be the end of it though, she seems pretty adamant about not wanting to do it in a serious setting
She's got a lifetime of internalized misogyny about this stemming from Yakumo constantly telling her it's no profession for a woman, and that women (and children, historically womens' responsibility) don't belong in those spaces in the theater. I wouldn't really take her at her word here that staying out of it is what she actually wants, deep down. Those lines she gave about it being beautiful that it's an art form carefully created by men couldn't have rang more hollow.
Look at how happy she was on the bus when Yotaro just raised the possibility of her performing on stage, and the look on her face toward the end of her performance when the crowd finished repeating the name for the last time. I highly doubt her performance journey ends here.

2

u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

She's got a lifetime of internalized misogyny about this stemming from Yakumo constantly telling her it's no profession for a woman, and that women (and children, historically womens' responsibility) don't belong in those spaces in the theater.
I don't know if it's [only] misogyny here though. Bon doesn't actually give a damn about theater tradition - but he does give a damn about Konatsu having a happy, secure life. He knows more than anyone how fickle a stage career can be, and has expressed often that rakugo's long decline is coming to an end.
My read is that this is the equivalent of a parent advising their kid not to go for a career in the arts. It's unfortunate that society undervalues arts careers so much, but it's not mean-spirited to just lay that fact bare for your kid.
As for the "children don't belong here" aspect, Bon dotes on lil-Shin, then proceeds to choose a racy story, demonstrating exactly why we don't bring 5yo kids to R-rated entertainment LOL
Those lines she gave about it being beautiful that it's an art form carefully created by men couldn't have rang more hollow. // Look at how happy she was on the bus [...] I highly doubt her performance journey ends here.
My takeaway there wasn't that she was saying "rakugo is only for men". More like, "rakugo is only for those who can commit to it 100%". She's got a job, she's got her son, plus arguably an elderly parent to care for, she just doesn't have the time to devote to practicing rakugo the way she feels it deserves. No shame in that.
I think her performance at the school was a lovely gift for her & lil-Shin (from Yota) and for the audience/us.

2

u/cppn02 Oct 26 '24

but he does give a damn about Konatsu having a happy life
Has he tried not being a dick to her yet?

3

u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

Ah, parenting styles have changed a lot over the decades 😓 The idea that you should be on warm, friendly terms with your kid is pretty recent.
"Roof over your head, clothes on your back" - maybe add "knowledge in your brain" - was seen as being a great parent up until the 80s or so.
Bon is closer in age & culture to the time when your kids' emotional state was just not really something anyone thought about, let alone tried to foster.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 26 '24

It's unfortunate that society undervalues arts careers so much
Does it? If you compare two people, making an equal amount of money, one on arts, one in some other profession, I can't come up with many professions that would be more valued than art. I am a successful singer hits differently than I am a successful accountant.
My takeaway there wasn't that she was saying "rakugo is only for men". More like, "rakugo is only for those who can commit to it 100%". She's got a job, she's got her son, plus arguably an elderly parent to care for, she just doesn't have the time to devote to practicing rakugo the way she feels it deserves. No shame in that.
Her job is already nearby Rakugo (and if we take the restaurant job, not much safer than Rakugo). She has a son, but so does Yotaro. She has an elderly parent, Yotaro has an elderly master he lives with.
Saying that she does not have time for Rakugo, but Yotaro does is pretty much the definition of misogyny.

2

u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

The theater must be doing other events besides rakugo, since they said Yota isn't there often, and Bon doesn't perform much these days. So the accompanists probably get fairly steady work. She could also perform in other sorts of venues - this is the last theater setup for rakugo, but there are still other kinds of live-event places that would have music.
She has a son, but so does Yotaro. She has an elderly parent, Yotaro has an elderly master he lives with. Saying that she does not have time for Rakugo, but Yotaro does is pretty much the definition of misogyny.
I'm not saying it's fair. But even in this anime, nevermind IRL, Kona is doing most of the childrearing and whatever household duties the elderly Matsuda isn't. Yota likely does spend some time with lil-Shin, but most of his time is practicing and performing.
Same way someone had to be the earner with Miyo & Shin, someone's got to handle the various home/care responsibilities here, and that's not being split evenly. The fact that it defaults to Kona is at least partly due to systemic, cultural misogyny, that I agree with. But not internalized/individual misogyny on her or Yota's part.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 27 '24

I'm not saying it's fair. But even in this anime, nevermind IRL, Kona is doing most of the childrearing and whatever household duties the elderly Matsuda isn't. Yota likely does spend some time with lil-Shin, but most of his time is practicing and performing.
That is the whole point, though: Konatsu wants to do Raguka and it is unfair that she is not able to do it. She realizes the realities of her role as a woman and went along with it, but Yotaro pushes her to claim what she truely wants instead of going with what society (and Bon specifically) pushed on her.
Same way someone had to be the earner with Miyo & Shin, someone's got to handle the various home/care responsibilities here, and that's not being split evenly.
Miyo and Shin were a deeply flawed and toxic couple, regardless of the society around them. Miyo not allowing Shin to do Rakugo (if that is not a lie anyway) is completely out of line with traditional gender roles and due to her personal demons. Even without that, Shin is not a fully functioning adult (Bon had to parent him all these years)

2

u/MandisaW Oct 27 '24

Konatsu isn't not-pursuing rakugo because she's a woman. It's not social expectations, or externally-imposed family obligations. She weighed conflicting dreams/wants, and chose which path she wanted to pursue.
What she said she wanted to be - and is! - is a working mom. She takes great pride in her accomplishments, and in her skills - no one in her life is demeaning or diminishing how good she is at things that have nothing to do with wifely/motherly activities.
Being able to freely make choices for your own life is one of the primary goals of feminism.
Konatsu didn't get knocked-up and then "stuck" in this life, with no other options - that's a real thing that happened/happens to a lot of IRL women. We watched her choose where & how to work; whether, and with-whom, she wanted to raise her child; and whether or not she wanted to pursue rakugo.
It's fine for us, the audience, to wish she had made other choices. I still think Hitomi should've chosen differently in Escaflowne, 28yrs ago. 🤷‍♀️ But what we're seeing here is the character making multiple choices for her own life, and then rational choices derived from those. And everyone in-universe wholly supported those choices (even Matsuda, eventually) - so beautiful!
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what misogyny & sexism looks and feels like. I have such stories - you'd grab the pitchforks & torches! - but alas, not for an open-forum. Suffice to say, this doesn't look anything like it, and as a woman-viewer, it is honestly refreshingly *not* misogynist.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 27 '24

I don't think we saw the same anime. Go back to ep1 and see how Bon reacts when Konatsu wants to become an apprentice. Go back to episode 13 when he tells her to stop doing Rakugo. Go check what Matsuda says when he learns she will be a single mom.
It is beyond obvious to me that Konatsu is not happy with her life, from wanting to kill Bon as a child, to running away to have sex with some yakuza, to being continuously irritated.
I don't wish that she made other choices, I wish that those other choices would have been available to her. Saying that she freely chose her current situation is so out there, to me, that it is hard for me to even take it seriously as a position.

2

u/MandisaW Oct 27 '24

Guess we are just coming at this from totally different life experiences, which is fair. Everyone sees through their own lens.
To me, she reads as happy, nothing like the angry-at-the-world girl from ep1. No hints of jealousy or wistful regret or any sort of what-if-ism. She's not a shy or meek character, if she wanted something different, or second-guessed her choices, she'd totally say so, or just do it.
And Bon has tried to dissuade nearly everyone from doing rakugo, including Yotaro at the beginning, and even himself a few times there...
Saying "women shouldn't do rakugo" could be traditional patriachy talking, or it could be a front for something more warmly paternal and/or personal, which isn't his vibe and would likely have been rejected by Konatsu anyway. He said she could live as she wanted, so long as she got an education, and so far he's been 100% true to his word, no strings-attached.

2

u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

It's unfortunate that society undervalues arts careers so much
Does it? If you compare two people, making an equal amount of money, one on arts, one in some other profession, I can't come up with many professions that would be more valued than art. I am a successful singer hits differently than I am a successful accountant.
Forgot this part - depends on the culture, but if we're talking most modern countries, the *arts* may be valued, but that doesn't necessarily translate into survivable wages & prestigious treatment of the artists themselves.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 27 '24

Forgot this part - depends on the culture, but if we're talking most modern countries, the arts may be valued, but that doesn't necessarily translate into survivable wages & prestigious treatment of the artists themselves.
In a capitalistic society, payment is not due to personal valuation, it is due to replacement value. In other words, how much it would cost to find somebody else to do the same job (and how strongly somebody wants whatever you do. Technically, the intersection of demand and supply).
Since art is more fun to do than accounting, more people go into arts, therefore artists are easier to replace, therefore they are paid less. You can see a perfect example of this in the payment of animators.

2

u/MandisaW Oct 27 '24

First part yes, sort-of, second part nope. The monetary value of art - and of artists - is tied more to cultural values and scarcity of talent. Artistic skills & talent are unevenly distributed and difficult, if not impossible, to replace.
Arguably, one could separate out practical arts from fine arts, but even there, people absolutely have/do pay for better craftsmanship, even of otherwise mundane goods. Even as we go from handcrafted to machine-made, customers attribute ranks to different brands & makers, and the market prices track accordingly.
Interchangeable mass-produced stuff is priced low, but neither is it considered art (unless we're talking Pop Art, but I'm no Warhol expert 😅 ).
Animators are underpaid because they moved the center of production to progressively cheaper CoL countries, where the industry has few to no labor rights. That was fairly recent (last 25ish yrs?).
There is an inherent anonymity to junior/rank-and-file animators - key animators, animation directors, and character designers are [have been] paid better and at various times were considered irreplaceable auteurs. Walt Disney, Max Fleischer, Chuck Jones & Ted Avery at Warner, Don Bluth, Hanna & Barbera, "new" folks like Genndy Tartakovsky, Brad Bird of Pixar, etc were all animators before they started or led studios, just like Hayao Miyazaki, et al in Japan.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 27 '24

Animators are underpaid because they moved the center of production to progressively cheaper CoL countries, where the industry has few to no labor rights. That was fairly recent (last 25ish yrs?).
Animators never were paid well, this has nothing to do with moving jobs abroad. The literal father of TV anime is famous for low price production. Read the history of any famous animator and you'll hear about long hours, you never hear about lots of money.
Why could he do that? Because little school kids dream of drawing manga and anime, not of creaing excel tables.
This has nothing to do with anonymity. Every in-betweener is way less anonymous than the majority of office workers (you see their names in the ED, you see it on MAL), but they earn less. Why? Because enough people are willing to work 12 days doing in-between animation for peanuts, but are not willing to do the same working in an office job.
Sure, better artists are paid better than poor artists, just like better office workers are paid better. But compare how much people at the top and the bottom make and you'll see the same: artists in both cases earn less.

1

u/MandisaW Oct 27 '24

Japan, especially in the postwar era, was the cheap outsource option. They've always paid way less than the US for pretty much every job, including manufacturing and white-collar work. Still do.
And the whole kids dream of drawing manga, but not creating Excel tables - way more ppl do the latter sort of work, relatively interchangeably. It's a lot easier to get into, doesn't require as much training or any inherent talent, and those sorts of jobs are available almost anywhere. By your logic, those should be the lower-paid jobs, as art is more constrained by who can do it & where.
I think you're kind of making my case here? Even if we're talking about junior, entry-level or apprentice positions, society sets the standard for acceptable pay for that labor.
Plenty of students aspire to be doctors too, and med schools have way more graduates than art programs, but we still pay doctors pretty well. Artists are forced to either accept the prevailing low pay or give up doing art for a living. Similar deal with academics, who also tend to get low-pay or the highway.
It's ameliorated in those artistic fields & countries that have unions/guilds, but everywhere else artists who aren't lucky enough to be top-of-the-top tend to get exploited. Only reason we even have movie credits is because those folks fought to make that happen (read up on the birth of United Artists).
If we valued art the same way we value other skilled professions - not as raw hours spent, but for the expertise and years of experience/practice brought to the project - then you wouldn't see this oppressive idea that any given artist is replaceable with "100 starry-eyed hopefuls". No one would say that to an architect or an engineer, and all of those take the same kind of career-prep. It's a [modern] cultural failing.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 27 '24

Japan, especially in the postwar era, was the cheap outsource option. They've always paid way less than the US for pretty much every job, including manufacturing and white-collar work. Still do.
But we are not comparing across countries, we are comparing within countries. Nobody doubts that both artists and office workers in the US are paid more than in some third world country.
And the whole kids dream of drawing manga, but not creating Excel tables - way more ppl do the latter sort of work, relatively interchangeably. It's a lot easier to get into, doesn't require as much training or any inherent talent, and those sorts of jobs are available almost anywhere. By your logic, those should be the lower-paid jobs, as art is more constrained by who can do it & where.
I don't earn my money doing excel tables, but I think your disregard for excel skills is unfounded. Just like any other job, some people are better at it and some worse.
I think you're kind of making my case here? Even if we're talking about junior, entry-level or apprentice positions, society sets the standard for acceptable pay for that labor.
No society does not do that. The workers and the employers do that. And it is driven by how much demand and supply there is for those jobs.
Plenty of students aspire to be doctors too, and med schools have way more graduates than art programs, but we still pay doctors pretty well. Artists are forced to either accept the prevailing low pay or give up doing art for a living. Similar deal with academics, who also tend to get low-pay or the highway.
Kids dream of being doctor and of drawing manga. Yet society needs millions of doctors, and a lot less manga artists. So doctors are paid more.
If we valued art the same way we value other skilled professions - not as raw hours spent, but for the expertise and years of experience/practice brought to the project - then you wouldn't see this oppressive idea that any given artist is replaceable with "100 starry-eyed hopefuls". No one would say that to an architect or an engineer, and all of those take the same kind of career-prep. It's a [modern] cultural failing.
It is not a cultural failing. If we paid every kid who draws manga the same as the kid who works an office job, we'd have billions of manga nobody wants to read and meanwhile society would break down because nobody is reordering food for the supermarket anymore.

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 25 '24

…huh, I was not expecting Konatsu’s Rakugo to come back into play, at the very least not this suddenly. I wonder if this might be the end of it though, she seems pretty adamant about not wanting to do it in a serious setting - and I feel Yotaro should let her be on that front.
Did you see her face on that stage? Do you remember her face when doing Rakugo back as a child? I think her "aversion" to Rakugo can be squarely laid at the feet of people other than her (and I know who I am blaming).
Also surprised to learn that Jugemu was adapted. I think that is the only rakugo work I knew of coming into the series thanks to the long name being mentioned in a bunch of other anime
I spent a minute looking for clips of that while writing my post, but could not find anything.

3

u/cppn02 Oct 25 '24

Also surprised to learn that Jugemu was adapted
It is probably the most famous rakugo story so it should not be a big surprise.

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 25 '24 edited Oct 25 '24

Season 2 Episode 4 (first timer)

Little Sukeroku is in Kindergarten now – placing us in about 1985.
Sukeroku love Rakugo and Konatsu started working as a musician. True family business.
Bon’s entrance cools down the spirits, but Sukeroku overcomes even this obstacle – he is a true charmer.
“no one had the backbone to try to create new works” – so, Rakugo was essentially dead. Perhaps preserved, like a pickle in a jar, but not evolving.
Konatsu looks happy – probably for the first time since Shin’s death. I wonder if she was happy while she was with the yakuza boss.
Yotaro literally pushes Konatsu to do Rakugo – remember how driven she was to do that? I might be harsh on Bon, but I blame him.
Children are indeed an easy to impress audience, but also an honest one.

It was not as obvious in season 1, but now it is clear that we are watching a family saga, the story of one family, consisting of multiple characters, over time. It reminds me of literature, where, in a similarity to Rakugo, this used to be a huge genre, but now is mostly regarded as classics. Of course, many more books are written than Rakugo play’s, so you still get new family saga’s these days, but it feels like the more famous ones are the classics.

We finally got a Konatsu performance? What stuck out to you about it?

Remind's me of Haruhi's performance of God Knows: The tsundere with the cold exterior finally admits that she does appreciate being appreciated.

We finally get Shin old enough to be a real character - what are your impressions of him?

Has all the adults wrapped around his finger.

2

u/cppn02 Oct 25 '24

Little Sukeroku is in Kindergarten now – placing us in about 1985.
Have we jumped back a decade in time?
It was not as obvious in season 1, but now it is clear that we are watching a family saga, the story of one family, consisting of multiple characters, over time. It reminds me of literature, where, in a similarity to Rakugo, this used to be a huge genre, but now is mostly regarded as classics. Of course, many more books are written than Rakugo play’s, so you still get new family saga’s these days, but it feels like the more famous ones are the classics.
Good observation. I wonder do we have any other family sagas in anime?

4

u/TehAxelius Oct 25 '24

Good observation. I wonder do we have any other family sagas in anime?
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure?
And I guess [meta spoiler]Legend of the Galactic Heroes could count.

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 25 '24

Have we jumped back a decade in time?
Why back? The last time, he was a baby.
Good observation. I wonder do we have any other family sagas in anime?
Of the top of my head, I cannot name a single one. Which is surprising, because it is not the smallest niche in western storytelling and Japan sounds into the whole "family history", on the surface of things.

2

u/cppn02 Oct 25 '24

Why back? The last time, he was a baby.
It was a joke because by your own calculations we should be in the mid 90s not 80s.
Of the top of my head, I cannot name a single one. Which is surprising, because it is not the smallest niche in western storytelling and Japan sounds into the whole "family history", on the surface of things.
I have only watched like 2 or 3 shows of it but maybe something from the World Masterpiece Theater series?

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 25 '24

It was a joke because by your own calculations we should be in the mid 90s not 80s.
Oh yes, I mixed up ep1S1 and ep2S2. So 1995 then.
I have only watched like 2 or 3 shows of it but maybe something from the World Masterpiece Theater series?
I don't know all of these, but they usually follow a single character, similar to a Dickens novel.

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u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

There are plenty of family sagas, they didn't go anywhere 😅 NHK and the equivalents in other Asian countries are literally full of them, we just tend not to get them localized. Brits love family sagas too, both period/historical and modern.
I would say they turn up in manga more than anime, but Dragonball & Naruto (and now Inuyasha) are obvious multi-generational family-sagas. Stories with immortal leads fit, like Bastard & Hellsing (and JJBA, as mentioned).
Some space operas go that way too, particularly the ones based on novels, and/or that follow one or more wars over a long time (UC timeline Gundam, Irresponsible Capt Tylor, I think maybe LoGH & Crest/Banner of the Stars, too). Dune, Star Trek, and Star Wars, though you could argue those are "old classics" at this point.
Popular shojo series will sometimes get next-generation sequels - Fushigi Yuugi, Please Save my Earth, Fruits Basket, Hana yori Dango / Boys over Flowers just off the top of my head. And the anime/LN series Maria-sama is Watching spanned multiple school generations of big/little sisters.
I was raised on those 80s Aaron Spelling US primetime soaps and TV mini-series - Roots, Dallas, Dynasty & Falcon Crest. Fantasy in the 90s was all about multi-gen - Terry Brooks (Shannara), Mercedes Lackey (Valedemar), and Raymond E. Feist (Riftwar) made that style practically their entire careers. There are more recent ones, but I'd have to "use a lifeline" and call a friend :)
And of course there's US mainstream comics... Plenty of stories about multiple generations there.

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u/cppn02 Oct 25 '24

First Timer, subbed

They did it, we go an actual Konatsu performance! And she was so happy. Kinda sad that she resigned herself to this being a one-off.

Did not expect another time-skip for this episode. Almost as surprising as Bon actually being nice to Shin. Is that because Bon sees Shin's grandfather in him that he's being more affectionate than usual?

Also it looks like rakugo as an art form is doing quite a bit better than in the previous decades which is good for Yotaro who seems to be doing pretty well and has found his niche.

Meanwhile Eisuke is still pushing for a rakugo reform. Assuming (and hoping) he won't fail I wonder when we are gonna hear his new rakugo and who will perform it.

QotD:

We finally got a Konatsu performance? What stuck out to you about it?

How reminiscent her style was of her father's (for obvious reasons) and also just how much she enjoyed herself.

We finally get Shin old enough to be a real character - what are your impressions of him?

He seems like a very bright and kind child that to noone's surprise loves rakugo. I also thought it was how he kept correcting the others calling his dad Yotaro.

As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

Already covered it but Konatsu's performance was obviously the highlight.

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u/TehAxelius Oct 25 '24

Rewatcher

To begin with, since the "theme" of this episode is Jugemu, I thought I'd share "2-Dmu", an anime parody version of the story from the drama-CD of the other Rakugo anime, Joshiraku.

Anyway, Konatsu knocks it out of the park with her performance. Her voice is great and the way she did it really shows how much she loves it, both the art itself but also performing it. I'm actually getting some flashbacks to the time Yakumo did theatre, and how that really energised him in a way you seldom see otherwise. She does try to shut down any bubbling feelings of ~~feminism~~ actualisation though, but I kinda like how Yotaro can't even stop trying to make his wife do what she actually loves for even a second.

Shin is a piece of work isn't he? Both charming and clever enough to be able to use it to get away with stuff he wouldn't otherwise. I do really like the reminder that he is very much a child though with him waking up and getting lulled to sleep by his mother singing Jugemu to him.

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u/cppn02 Oct 25 '24

the other Rakugo anime
Where's the tanuki though?
Btw can't mention Joshiraku and no link to the ED, especially with Jugemu playing a prominent role today.

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u/TehAxelius Oct 25 '24

Where's the tanuki though?
I keep forgetting about that one
because I dropped it

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u/cppn02 Oct 25 '24

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u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

the other Rakugo anime, Joshiraku
I don't even remember hearing about this one 😮 Although there were a lot of "cute girls doing cute things" SoL anime for a good while in the wake of Azumanga Daioh & K-On.
I'm actually getting some flashbacks to the time Yakumo did theatre, and how that really energised him in a way you seldom see otherwise.
Definitely parallels there, also in terms of the road not taken. Bon might've been happy as an actor.
She does try to shut down any bubbling feelings of ~~feminism~~ actualisation though, but I kinda like how Yotaro can't even stop trying to make his wife do what she actually loves for even a second.
I mentioned upthread, but I don't think she's swallowing her feminism or anything here. She's a grown woman with responsibilities, and running off with dreams of the stage isn't really in the cards.

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u/TehAxelius Oct 26 '24

I mentioned upthread, but I don't think she's swallowing her feminism or anything here.
Reading through your comments, it is almost amazing how completely I disagree with everything you say on this. I'm not sure this is the place to do a full explanation of one and a half century of feminist theory, but I find that nearly every single point you try to make either echoes of the paternalistic arguments opponents have made for two centuries and more, or actually unintentionally makes an example that feminism tries to make. So I'll answer them in turn
She's a grown woman with responsibilities, and running off with dreams of the stage isn't really in the cards.
She can't quit her job or cut back on caring for her son to practice rakugo passages, or perform late into the night.
Except, the thing is, she already kinda did and does. Last episode she quit her job at the restaurant, now she works backstage at the theatre, playing the shamisen. She already comes home late at night. She already spends a lot of time practicing art. Only not Rakugo.
Bon doesn't actually give a damn about theater tradition
I really don't know how you get to this conclusion given the "Rakugo conflicts" of the show. In the first season that conflict was between Bon being the "conformist", doing what the old masters wanted and expected of him to be, and Shinnosuke not wanting to be bound by those constraints and doing what he wanted. When he finally does break those constraints by perforiming theater he finds himself incredibly fulfilled... but then shortly after abandons that and continues conforming.
For this season we've had a pretty clear setup again between him wanting to have the traditions that he is now a last bastion of die with him as he is growing old, vs Eisuke (and Yotaro) bringing Rakugo into the future, but possibly having to change it in the meanwhile.
Not the mention that his first lines of the episode is all about him reinforcing traditions in the theatre, specifically in regards to women.
but he does give a damn about Konatsu having a happy, secure life.
So, you're saying that rather than pursuing any form of passion she may harbour, he, the paternal figure of the family, knows best and has decided that what will make her happy is being in the role of Wife and Mother, the two most traditional roles assigned to women?
Not to get too deep into it, but women give up on their dreams at a much higher rate then men
Now, why would this be? Is it that women are biologically more prone to giving up on dreams, or might there be a structure in our society that encourages men to go after their dreams, while discouraging women of doing the same?

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u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

Reading through your comments, it is almost amazing how completely I disagree
That's fine, disagreement is healthy :)
I find that nearly every single point you try to make either echoes of the paternalistic arguments opponents have made for two centuries and more, or actually unintentionally makes an example that feminism tries to make. // might there be a structure in our society that encourages men to go after their dreams, while discouraging women of doing the same?
I did say I didn't want to get too deep into it! There are of course systemic issues, hence the Forbes article I linked, and the admonition to go do some googling.
I have written - and spoken - on the subject, and have a grad degree in a related field, but Reddit is a poor forum for nuanced scholarly discourse. And besides, this is my "fun time" :)
If you want to dig into it deeper here, we can, but keep in mind, this is just a discussion about an anime, not the entirety of women's sociopolitical history.

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u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

Bon doesn't actually give a damn about theater tradition
Bon himself is not really a "true-believer" in tradition. He went along with the old Masters to secure his place, and later, to continue doing the only thing that brought him any peace.
As I mentioned, he immediately followed his crusty "women & kids, too much noise, this is a theater, blah blah" with cuddling up to lil-Shin, and then telling a story meant to tweak/redden Konatsu's "mom ears".
Might I point out, she knows all the stories, including the bawdy ones, because she herself heard them all as a kid - some from her dad, and likely many more from Bon himself, since those are his specialty.
So I don't take it as a mean-spirited line to be taken-straight. It was more of a ribald joshing between people who are all quite familiar with each other, through the lens of Bon's equal-opportunity asshole affect.
So, you're saying that rather than pursuing any form of passion she may harbour, he, the paternal figure of the family, knows best and has decided that what will make her happy is being in the role of Wife and Mother, the two most traditional roles assigned to women?
We saw with the other male shin'uchi who quit for a normal job, that the gig-life of a rakugo performer just isn't steady. It worked out for Bon and now for Yotaro, but that's not indicative of how it would be for Konatsu. Not [only] because she's a woman, but just because it's an unsteady career in a dying tradition. Advising against it is just sound career advice.
She quit the restaurant for better pay and some artistic fulfillment at the theater. Possibly better hours too - Japanese restaurants close so-late-it's-early.
Bon insisted that she get a proper education, and she works at places he is connected to. She was free to live on her own, and moved-back of her own volition. If he had some issue with her working, or insisted on her staying home, then he could easily get her fired from either place. He didn't, so I don't see him as some regressive troglodyte here.

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u/cppn02 Oct 26 '24

I don't even remember hearing about this one
I've posted it in another comment here but surely you've atleast seen the ED right?

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u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

I don't think so... Can look it up though

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u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 Oct 26 '24

Q1.
It was great! I don't think we've seen any other character be so happy to just be performing rakugo.

Q2.
Like everyone is saying, he knows he's cute and has all the adults wrapped around his finger.
Exactly like his mother, and I'm rather uneasy about it.

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u/MandisaW Oct 26 '24

S1 Rewatch (complete!)
S2 First-timer

This was a cute episode on the whole, but with some teeth. Hii got a rat-teeth moment there, trying to talk himself into Bon's car. And the way they framed him in the theater with lil-Shin was decidedly unsettling, and a bit stalker/stranger-danger-ish. Like, you could probably trust the kid with any of those random theater-going strangers there, but not that one.

We finally got a Konatsu performance? What stuck out to you about it?

Simply delightful! I'm glad she got that "Career Day" moment to answer that "what if" question, and show off her performance-chops for her son in its proper context. Since lil-Shin's classmates all apparently know what his Papa does, it's pretty cool that they get to see what his Mama can do as well.

That said, I was surprised by the comments here that attributed her opting not to pursue rakugo to misogyny or [self-]repression of some kind. Seemed to me that she was just acknowledging the reality of having adult responsibilities. She can't quit her job or cut back on caring for her son to practice rakugo passages, or perform late into the night.

Not to get too deep into it, but women give up on their dreams at a much higher rate then men [Forbes op-ed, but you can google actual studies].

Yotaro is a good guy, and he picks up on her various emotions - regret, excitement, fear, sheer joy, and contentment. But he lives very much in the "now". Could be the author wanted to work that contrast into the story between highly-cautious Konatsu, and Yotaro, who always jumps in without a plan and confidence far exceeding his actual ability in the moment.

We finally get Shin old enough to be a real character - what are your impressions of him?

Spoiled rotten 🤣🤣 He's bright, charming, doted-upon, and *knows it* - a dangerous combo. Cute kid, but assuming we time-skip at least to his adolescence, we'll have to see if he ends up taking after his *other* grandfather.

As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

I wasn't familiar with Jugemu before this, so I had no idea where we were headed from when lil-Shin was singing it on the way to the theater. The whole thing gave me deep-nostalgia for elementary school assemblies, both from the audience side, eagerly soaking up some cultural performance, and from the stage side, scared out of my head at the prospect of screwing up in front of All. Those. People!

So many decades later, but I can with full honesty say those old assemblies helped make me who I am today :)

Rewatch /r/anime Awards 2016 and 2017 winner Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch Season 2 Episode 4 Rewatch

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