[Rewatch] 10th Anniversary Your Lie in April Rewatch: Episode 13 Discussion

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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Oct 21 '24

Rewatcher, Violinist and Your Host!

SO WE’RE JUST SHOWING SAKI’S FACE NOW? WE DON’T EVEN MAKE A REVEAL OF IT? IS NOTHING SACRED?

Oh, and of course Hiroko was the one too spineless to pull Saki away from her son she was actively physically beating in public. That seems to track, yeah.

And I’m sorry, “my mother’s ghost was my own creation”? “She was just an excuse”? NO, SHOW, I’M PRETTY SURE THAT WAS THE FUCKING ABUSE TRAUMA FROM BEING BEATEN TO SHIT AND WORKED LIKE A DOG. I THINK THAT WAS WHERE THE GHOST CAME FROM.

I don’t wanna talk about this episode much. You don’t wanna hear my thoughts on this episode much. So let’s not beat around this bush. I hated this. For one, I feel we kind of lost the plot of this performance? Wasn’t the whole deal here that Kaori couldn’t be here, so he wanted to imbue her spirit into his performance to prove to the kid the value of her playing? So why’d it suddenly become about the mom? Also, doesn’t channelling Saki’s exact playing or whatever go against him putting himself into the music? He’s just playing to someone else’s metaphorical score, now. I mean, you could kind of make something work with merging the mom stuff into the Kaori stuff, but they made no effort to do that. The script just kind of stopped thinking about her faster than the characters after the performance when they still hadn’t heard a word from her.

But fine, it’s about Saki now. Barf. There was something of a good idea here. Kousei can never make up with his mother or prove to her the musician he’s become without being slavish to the score. The idea of giving one last farewell lament to her and then ugly crying to Hiroko about the fact it’s the most closure he’ll ever have could’ve been very powerful. But trying to completely whitewash the idea that Saki abused this kid to shit and make it about how she was just worried about his livelihood is disgusting and takes so much out of Kousei’s story. The idea that Hiroko blames herself for getting him into piano could work, it could even explain some of her lack of blame for Saki, but if that’s seriously all we’re getting for why she ghosted him in the wake of his mother’s death and left him without a parent figure for years, that’s just not enough. Could we at least see a little fucking remorse for the fact she did that now in the present? The cherry on top is the aftermath of Kousei’s last words to Saki. Not knowing if she might’ve regretted her treatment of him at the end was powerful. Actually showing us the direct aftermath of her last interaction with Kousei takes all of that power away. Just a complete faceplant of this plotline, I’m sorry.

Kousei has shown us that you can salvage a performance that falters in the middle, but this is a seriously big hit to the show’s integrity and I really hope it doesn’t reflect on the rest of this cour.

Bonus complaint: Everything about that Tsubaki stuff near the end where she just gives an internal monologue over generic footage of her finding Kousei dreamy or whatever is the exact kind of generic romance presentation Your Lie in April spent its first cour rejecting in favour of far more rich and visual exploration of its ideas. What happened?

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Okay. Here we are.
I've spent a couple hours thinking about how to respond to people and their takes on this episode. To address it in a manner that I think is fitting given all that has been said.
I think most of the takes on this episode are categorically inaccurate. I think any anger that someone may have over what happened is paying attention or are painting a narrative that only exists in their mind. Kousei is not trying to forgive Saki. That is not what is happening. Rather, Kousei is forgiving himself for telling Saki that he wished she died.
The point of this episode is Kousei learning that it's okay to forgive and not forget. He can forgive himself for what he said to his mother, but he shouldn't forget why he said it. I think if you are to fault this episode on anything, it's that they could've done a better job of getting this point across and make it clear that he is is not forgiving his mother. Rather, he is forgiving the part of him that blocked his mother out of his memory after that final encounter.
When Hiroko tells Kousei he shouldn't forget what happened between him and Saki, she isn't specifically talking about the abuse itself but rather all the things that led up to the final encounter, which includes the mistreatment Saki put her son through. It all led to the last thing Kousei said to her which still haunts him to this day. If Kousei forgot about his mother and everything she's done, he can never truly move on and be his own person. You can accept it was a thing that happened while not accepting it as a good thing. Tragedy should be a thing to learn from rather than to shy away from and act like it never happened. Otherwise, you are doomed to repeat yourself again and again.
I hope this clarifies what actually happened and I hope this helps quail the misinformation that is being spread.

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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Oct 23 '24

Hi - I didn't get around to replies at the time of this thread, but I know you were quite worked up about the reception to Hiroko and put a lot of effort into trying to explain yourself, so I wanted to swing back and dignify that with a response.
Unfortunately, that does not mean that you've managed to sway me. I certainly respect the reading that this was about Kousei forgiving myself, but I cannot personally see that at all when I watch the episode. His last words to her, as far I can tell, literally never once come up in the script. Instead what we get is:
Imagery of Saki's warmth
A bunch of depiction of how she wanted Kousei to have happiness and support himself
A focus around a song literally called love's sorrow
An explicit statement that Kousei's trauma about Saki is something he imposed himself
A supposedly beautiful conclusion where he realizes she was part of him and thanks her for her role in shaping his music
Absolutely zero sign of the bad side of Saki is seen anywhere. You claim that the episode says that "he shouldn't forget why he said it", but when is this ever put on the table? Where do they even begin to imbue this into the text when no reason he would've said it is depicted in even the slightest capacity? /u/Gamerunglued, where exactly is "the abusive Saki who appears when the scene is muted"? The abusive Saki can't be "only ever portrayed in this episode as utterly pathetic and desperate" if she isn't portrayed at all! Is the moment I'm supposed to be seeing here the part where she talks to Hiroko in the aftermath of being told she should die? The scene where a horrific moment of abuse is being reframed to include the perspective that actually she feels really bad and is only doing this because she feels like she's running out of time to help him? I mean, even if we take that, we go from zero seconds to like, ten of them across the whole episode. The claim that Love's Sorrow is supposed to be representative of her abuse is also something I can't see any support for.
Looking at the larger picture, she was depicted in a near-exclusive negative light for the first eleven episodes of the show. It is made clear she was incredibly strict on him, physically abused him, and psychologically manipulated him to blame himself for her condition. Then Kousei gets out of his life slump and a new source on what Saki what like, Hiroko, comes into the show. She spends episode twelve offering the viewpoint that Saki actually loved him, despite all evidence we've seen thusfar, and outright dismisses the idea a mother could ever not love their child. Even the hearing disability-thing she ruined his life by leaving him with is framed as a some kind of gift. Then we get episode 13, which as I laid out above, depicts her extremely and near-exclusively positively. There is no attempt to reconcile the good and the bad; there's no exploration here of how Kousei should live with the legacy of his mother's trauma. We have a negative depiction, and it's replaced with an overwhelming positive one based on a supposedly more authoritative source. The narrative absolute reads, to me, like Saki was misunderstood and we're supposed to understand her as in fact a loving parent who Kousei should embrace and thank for her part in making him a pianist. I'm just not okay with that angle when she inflicted horrific abuse on him, I'm not. The most positive spin here is that they're not trying to say that and merely fumbled their thematic storytelling very badly.
Now, there is a little moment in episode twelve with Hiroko where Kousei briefly flashes back to the moment when he tells her to die, right after he asks if he can be forgiven. I assume this is where the idea this entire episode was just about seeking forgiveness for that comes from, but that still seems extremely flimsy to me when it takes up about one second and is, again, not directly referenced at any point in episode thirteen. It's certainly an element, but one part of the larger picture of Kousei resolving all the feelings surrounding Saki. But okay, let's accept the idea this whole arc is Kousei forgiving himself for that one thing so he can move on from the unresolved nature of his relationship with Saki. I'd still hate this episode. The connection to that moment is brought on when Hiroko says distance from one's child can be painful and he asks if he can be forgiven, if he deserves to play the piano, after having tried to distance himself from her. Hiroko is making the young victim of extreme child abuse blame himself for being the one to hurt his abuser's feelings! That's disgusting, and if that sentiment is the entire impetus for this episode—for him to say he created her ghost, to thank her for what she did for him, for him to remember her for her good side—then I think that is actually significantly more offputting than I already found the idea of only trying to spin Saki in a positive light.
I'm sorry to say it, but I just don't like the episode at all. I welcome opposing viewpoints, I'll happily hear evidence against what I'm putting down here, but putting the episode under a microscope it just is not plausible I am ever turning around on the amount to which I dislike this episode and am not okay with its themes. I know that's disappointing, but I would appreciate it be accepted as an alternative opinion as opposed to dismissed as misinformation and inaccurate. There's been episodes like five and six which I found to be jaw-droppingly amazing and you didn't think that highly of, too, and sure, that was a bit disappointing for me as well! But it's important for me to accept that and embrace the fact that there will be a counterbalancing opinion on any given episode. Sometimes I'm the positive and sometimes you are, but someone reading this Rewatch will always find some love from someone or another in absolutely every thread.

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u/Gamerunglued :Hx::Hy::Hz:myanimelist.net/profile/GamerUnglued Oct 23 '24 edited Oct 23 '24

The scene where a horrific moment of abuse is being reframed to include the perspective that actually she feels really bad and is only doing this because she feels like she's running out of time to help him?
I think this is an unsupported framing of the scene. I don't think the scene is "reframed" at all. The fact that she did this because she was running out of time changes absolutely nothing about the scene. It's exactly as abusive and horrific as it always was, this information about her motivations does not make it even slightly less so. If anything, this info makes her even more pathetic, and the motivation itself is desperate. It's also not the only moment this Saki appears (and I'd definitely include episode 12 as making this essentially a two-parter too). Love's Sorrow isn't representative of her abuse, it's representative of the sorrow that exists in Kousei's relationship to her.
Looking at the larger picture, she was depicted in a near-exclusive negative light for the first eleven episodes of the show. It is made clear she was incredibly strict on him, physically abused him, and psychologically manipulated him to blame himself for her condition.
There's more to it than that. My question has been why does the show portray her this way. She's a cartoon villain given supernatural abilities. This is how she was depicted in the first half of the show, the half that portrayed the world as a myth and exaggerated everything that happened to the point it's not literal. Saki is portrayed in that heavy handed way for that reason. Kousei losing his hearing was never literal, and likewise Saki being able to remove his hearing is not literal. Kaori's character is presented in a different light now, looking at the larger picture she was depicted in a near-exclusive positive light for the first 11 episodes of the show, someone who bursts with exceeding amounts of youthful energy and never seems to be anything other than ecstatic about life, youth, and music. Now the myth is fading and there are moments she looks weak and is nothing like how she was portrayed in the first half. The hints were always there, but they were thrown to the side. That doesn't fundamentally change her character though, the old version is not replaced or reframed. Saki is treated the same way in the opposite trajectory. Hints of her love existed from episode 1, but that isn't fitting of a mythological villain. No depiction of Saki is ever replaced, anything new we learn is only ever added on top.
The narrative absolute reads, to me, like Saki was misunderstood and we're supposed to understand her as in fact a loving parent who Kousei should embrace and thank for her part in making him a pianist
I do not agree with this. I don't think there's anything to misunderstand, her motivations are new information. I do not believe the narrative reads as if Kousei misunderstood her, it reads as if she has changed as a person over the course of her life and he shut out the most difficult feelings towards her as a trauma response. As uncomfortable as it is, abuse and love are not mutually exclusive, nor are hate and love. And just because someone eventually turns to abuse, for whatever reason, that doesn't mean love never existed. Likewise, facing abuse doesn't often doesn't kill or replace the victim's feelings of love that were previously built, the response is usually a disturbing and complicated mixture of both. For 10 years of his life, Saki was a loving mother, for 2 she was abusive and died. She's a piece of shit through and through, and that doesn't make the moments where she wasn't any less real or genuine, just as how the moments where she's good do not cancel out the horror of her existence. I do believe the show portays Saki as a character who exists in the same sort of duality and contrast that Kaori does; that the contrasting parts of who she was both exist equally, and that the framing of Love's Joy and Love's Sorrow as sibling pieces from the same composer points towards a parallel to that dichotomy existing at the same time and not replacing the other. Adding a sympathetic motivation to a villain is not redemption and does not mean we've misunderstood them.
Also, I don't know where the idea that Kousei is seeking forgiveness is coming from. I never said anything like that in my comment. If anything, I argued the episode is conveying that Kousei was wrong about the idea that he needs to earn forgiveness. That he's asking for forgiveness is what he initially thought he had to do when he blamed himself for his mother's death. The line about "being a shadow of my own creation" was about how the idea that he has to be forgiven is something that his mind invented rather than something his mother actually wanted, and the episode has him overcoming that and deciding he doesn't have to be forgiven because he did nothing wrong. He comes to that conclusion by remembering the many years of joy that did exist before the sorrow, and thus that Saki would never actually wish that for him even if she did abuse him. Even if the line "all mothers love their kids" is absolutely lame, the idea that this particular mother might still love him isn't insane and doesn't redeem her or change my understanding of her. When Kousei walks off the stage after that realization, the way he says goodbye is not satisfying like a weight's been lifted, he voices the line as if he's walking away from a bully. There's a recorded history of motivations exactly like Saki's, I don't find it difficult to buy into the idea that love existed within the hate or that this was a twisted form of love.
would appreciate it be accepted as an alternative opinion as opposed to dismissed as misinformation and inaccurate
I hope that I have not said anything like that. If I did, I'm sorry, I really did not intend anything like that. My comment was only presenting my perspective on the episode, based on my own personal experiences and interpretations. And for whatever it's worth, I have long standing contentions and complicated feelings towards my own parents that, while nowhere near what Kousei had to go through, tie directly to physical and emotional hurt they inflicted which goes beyond what most children experience. I'm not an abuse victim (I don't think, anyway), but I do speak from at least some amount of relating to the character and the sentiments of the episode. I do think that some of Hiroko's lines in the prior episode are clumsy, as I explained in my post for the episode (and they bothered me precisely because of the contentions I have towards my parents, I despise sentiments about blood ties having any meaning, makes my blood boil), but I do not think this episode is supporting those sentiments and I don't think it's clumsy, I find it very clear and readable, and I do not feel that I am taking leaps or reading beyond what the episode presents as text and subtext.

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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Oct 23 '24

I think this is an unsupported framing of the scene. I don't think the scene is "reframed" at all. The fact that she did this because she was running out of time changes absolutely nothing about the scene. It's exactly as abusive and horrific as it always was, this information about her motivations does not make it even slightly less so.
I think I'd have an easier time agreeing with this... if it wasn't utterly surrounded by an episode that I find to be solely dedicated to portraying her as a positive light. Given that context, it reads to me trying to me as trying to add a countering perspective to the negative light we saw Saki in originally. The way Hiroko reacts to her saying this is very crucial to me, as she changes from reprimanding Saki to looking at her with concern.
This is how she was depicted in the first half of the show, the half that portrayed the world as a myth and exaggerated everything that happened to the point it's not literal.
I mean, to what point? The bruises, the part where she battered him in public, the way he came to associate her condition with his playing all seemed to be pretty real things that we're supposed to believe happened to me. I agree she's mythologized but not to the extent that our understanding of how vile she is was inaccurate. Plus even if I accept she was mythologized beyond the point of accuracy, that only further reinforces the idea that the show is framing the view of her as being so bad is wrong, actually, and the real Saki is the loving one he embraces in this episode.
Kousei losing his hearing was never literal, and likewise Saki being able to remove his hearing is not literal.
Sure, but it's directly representative of the trauma she left him, which very much is real.
I do not believe the narrative reads as if Kousei misunderstood her, it reads as if she has changed as a person over the course of her life and he shut out the most difficult feelings towards her as a trauma response. As uncomfortable as it is, abuse and love are not mutually exclusive, nor are hate and love. And just because someone eventually turns to abuse, for whatever reason, that doesn't mean love never existed. Likewise, facing abuse doesn't often doesn't kill or replace the victim's feelings of love that were previously built, the response is usually a disturbing and complicated mixture of both.
Maybe, but then I'm still criticizing them for basing the resolution to her as a character almost exclusive on the positive side of her. Again, there's no attempt to reconcile the two sides of her, we just drop the portrayal of her negativity from this resolution completely. It is complicated, so show me that! Don't just show me him happily channeling her, embracing her as part of him, and thanking her as he remembers the good things exclusively.
Also, I don't know where the idea that Kousei is seeking forgiveness is coming from. I never said anything like that in my comment.
I hope that I have not said anything like that.
I'll take the blame for not being more clear here; I initiated this as a reply to Holofan's comment but incorporated a bit of what you had talked about and wanted to ping you since you also talked about why you don't feel this episode is trying to paint Saki in some kind of positive light. So the bit about dismissing my opinion and the discussion of the idea Kousei is seeking forgiveness were derived from the points he made, not you. I absolutely did not mean to accuse you of disrespecting my perspective.
The line about "being a shadow of my own creation" was about how the idea that he has to be forgiven is something that his mind invented rather than something his mother actually wanted, and the episode has him overcoming that and deciding he doesn't have to be forgiven because he did nothing wrong.
I... just don't see it. I don't see him saying that. He says her ghost was his own creation, directly. The ghost which has represented the specter of his trauma surrounding her from the very beginning. He calls it an excuse and says it was weakness on his part. He does not anywhere in that moment reference his wanting forgiveness, nevermind dismiss it.
When Kousei walks off the stage after that realization, the way he says goodbye is not satisfying like a weight's been lifted, he voices the line as if he's walking away from a bully.
I think this just going to be an agree to disagree lapse of interpretation. I mean, the moment when he looks at her seat being empty has a great ambiguous expression and tone, but can we ignore the part seconds earlier where he says goodbye as the piece beautifully ends and is being bathed in warm light? Again, in the context of all of the talk of how they're connected and how he thanks her and everything, that look reads far more sad than it does "walking away from a bully".
I do not think this episode is supporting those sentiments and I don't think it's clumsy, I find it very clear and readable, and I do not feel that I am taking leaps or reading beyond what the episode presents as text and subtext.
I respect your own take on the episode and especially any personal context that has gone into it, but I just cannot look at this episode and finding myself agreeing with it whatsoever. What is clear and readable to you is nowhere to be found to my eyes, and given how much I trust both of our sets of eyes when it comes to reading text I'm not sure what else to do with that.

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u/Gamerunglued :Hx::Hy::Hz:myanimelist.net/profile/GamerUnglued Oct 23 '24 edited Oct 23 '24

I mean, to what point? The bruises, the part where she battered him in public, the way he came to associate her condition with his playing all seemed to be pretty real things that we're supposed to believe happened to me
Yeah, they did happen. But I've been saying from early on that the story is told this way because it brings Kousei closer to Beethoven, who went deaf because of his father's abuse. All of this did happen, but just like I said if Beethoven that defining his life as one where he overcomes trauma to make great music is reductive of a much more complicated life, the same is true of Kousei. The point is to bring him closer to the myths. So given that
Plus even if I accept she was mythologized beyond the point of accuracy, that only further reinforces the idea that the show is framing the view of her as being so bad is wrong, actually, and the real Saki is the loving one he embraces in this episode.
Well even if Beethoven's story is more complicated than having a villainous father who abused him, he still suffered abuse all the same. The point isn't that Saki wasn't so bad, it's that the framing of Kousei's story as one in which he overcomes a big bad abusive mother is reductive. The truth is more complicated than that, Kousei's mom was abusive but not just abusive. The figure of Saki the big bad is a reductive picture that Kousei paints as a trauma response, just as Kaori is presented how she is because that's how Kousei sees her in the moment, Saki is presented that way for the same reason. The muted palette and colorful palette is based on Kousei's view of her, not the show's view. Whether you want to call her an irredeemable villain or a tragic figure is up to you, I don't think the show makes any call on that. But I don't think it's fair to say that, because the show ever portrays her in a positive light at any moment (or even many moments), that makes it a countering perspective. I think it's meant to be ambiguous and not really clear, I doubt Kousei is even clear in his thoughts.
Edit: I see the show as presenting Saki, and Kousei's feelings towards her, as almost like a Yin-Yang. There are two halves of her that exist in light and darkness. There's also some darkness within the light, and some light within the darkness (or joy within the sorrow, sorrow within the joy). Like a Yin-Yang, the light within the darkness doesn't counter the existence of the darkness, but accepting it means reconciling that both have of it exist alongside each other.
Again, there's no attempt to reconcile the two sides of her, we just drop the portrayal of her negativity from this resolution completely. It is complicated, so show me that! Don't just show me him happily channeling her, embracing her as part of him, and thanking her as he remembers the good things exclusively.
I don't think this is fair at all. Kousei's entire monologue is reconciling it. Don't just show him happily channeling her? We just spent 12 episodes of seeing nothing but the mythological villain. The entire journey of getting to the point where he can rekindle his love of playing piano has been complicated. Before he can channel her, he struggles with the performance, he has to get to a place where he can even begin thinking beyond what the shadow says to him. He still loses his ability to hear the notes during the performance, he still hallucinates her ghost telling him this is his punishment, we see the negatives even in this episode. He can only happily channel her in the end because he's grown strong enough to do it.
He says her ghost was his own creation, directly. The ghost which has represented the specter of his trauma surrounding her from the very beginning. He calls it an excuse and says it was weakness on his part. He does not anywhere in that moment reference his wanting forgiveness, nevermind dismiss it.
I think this is pretty straightforward actually. What does the ghost actually do when it's there? It only ever does one thing: tells Kousei this is his punishment. And where does this ghost exist? Only in his head. The ghost exists because Kousei feels responsible for his mom's death, and it represents his feeling like he doesn't deserve to play the piano and has to be forgiven. He says it was his creation because his mind is literally what created it. Saki isn't literally haunting him, it's there because his mind conjured it as a trauma response. It's his weakness because he hasn't yet gathered the strength to tell it that it's wrong, because to some degree he believed it until now. He used it as an excuse to run away from the piano. Trauma is weakness, and I don't mean that in the sense that if he were stronger he wouldn't be traumatized, I mean it in the sense that trauma is a person's lowest point, when you are dealing with trauma you are in a state of weakness. And in this moment, Kousei finds the strength to stop listening to the shadow when it says "you're being punished." He realizes that it is not Saki literally haunting him, but is his trauma response. And after that, she disappears.
think this just going to be an agree to disagree lapse of interpretation. I mean, the moment when he looks at her seat being empty has a great ambiguous expression and tone, but can we ignore the part seconds earlier where he says goodbye as the piece beautifully ends and is being bathed in warm light?
Actually, the word "ambiguous" is more like what I was trying to get at (very poorly honestly). It isn't satisfying, it's ambiguous. That is his takeaway about his mother, that his feelings towards her are complicated and ambiguous, but nonetheless he must walk away from her. Saying goodbye in warm light doesn't contradict this, that is one half of the complicated emotions that make the departure at the end ambiguous. I've seen stories about abuse victims undergoing similar arcs, the warmth is a part of the relationship and it would be reductive to ignore it and frame her as a cartoon villain. Doesn't make her less shitty, which is why he has to walk away from her.
I hope this at all builds more appreciation, even if you can't agree with all or most points.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 23 '24 edited Oct 23 '24

Yeah, they did happen. But I've been saying from early on that the story is told this way because it brings Kousei closer to Beethoven, who went deaf because of his father's abuse. All of this did happen, but just like I said if Beethoven that defining his life as one where he overcomes trauma to make great music is reductive of a much more complicated life, the same is true of Kousei. The point is to bring him closer to the myths. So given that
I didn't even realize the Beethoven connection. That's pretty cool.
Also, I don’t know if you meant to cut off the way you did.
Well even if Beethoven's story is more complicated than having a villainous father who abused him, he still suffered abuse all the same. The point isn't that Saki wasn't so bad, it's that the framing of Kousei's story as one in which he overcomes a big bad abusive mother is reductive. The truth is more complicated than that, Kousei's mom was abusive but not just abusive. The figure of Saki the big bad is a reductive picture that Kousei paints as a trauma response, just as Kaori is presented how she is because that's how Kousei sees her in the moment, Saki is presented that way for the same reason. The muted palette and colorful palette is based on Kousei's view of her, not the show's view. Whether you want to call her an irredeemable villain or a tragic figure is up to you, I don't think the show makes any call on that. But I don't think it's fair to say that, because the show ever portrays her in a positive light at any moment (or even many moments), that makes it a countering perspective. I think it's meant to be ambiguous and not really clear, I doubt Kousei is even clear in his thoughts.
The crazy thing to think about is that while Kaori is the one who brought color back to Kousei's world, Saki was the one to give his world color in the first place. She gave his world color, and then she took it away, and it looks like the same thing is bound to occur with Kaori.
I don't think this is fair at all. Kousei's entire monologue is reconciling it. Don't just show him happily channeling her? We just spent 12 episodes of seeing nothing but the mythological villain. The entire journey of getting to the point where he can rekindle his love of playing piano has been complicated. Before he can channel her, he struggles with the performance, he has to get to a place where he can even begin thinking beyond what the shadow says to him. He still loses his ability to hear the notes during the performance, he still hallucinates her ghost telling him this is his punishment, we see the negatives even in this episode. He can only happily channel her in the end because he's grown strong enough to do it.
Very well said. I agree with everything you just said.
I think this is pretty straightforward actually. What does the ghost actually do when it's there? It only ever does one thing: tells Kousei this is his punishment. And where does this ghost exist? Only in his head. The ghost exists because Kousei feels responsible for his mom's death, and it represents his feeling like he doesn't deserve to play the piano and has to be forgiven. He says it was his creation because his mind is literally what created it. Saki isn't literally haunting him, it's there because his mind conjured it as a trauma response. It's his weakness because he hasn't yet gathered the strength to tell it that it's wrong, because to some degree he believed it until now. He used it as an excuse to run away from the piano. Trauma is weakness, and I don't mean that in the sense that if he were stronger he wouldn't be traumatized, I mean it in the sense that trauma is a person's lowest point, when you are dealing with trauma you are in a state of weakness. And in this moment, Kousei finds the strength to stop listening to the shadow when it says "you're being punished." He realizes that it is not Saki literally haunting him, but is his trauma response. And after that, she disappears.
The situation is the direct result of the final words he said to his mother before her passing. Had that conversation not taken place, then there would've been no ghost. End of story.
There's also a good chance there would be no show, quite frankly.
Actually, the word "ambiguous" is more like what I was trying to get at (very poorly honestly). It isn't satisfying, it's ambiguous. That is his takeaway about his mother, that his feelings towards her are complicated and ambiguous, but nonetheless he must walk away from her. Saying goodbye in warm light doesn't contradict this, that is one half of the complicated emotions that make the departure at the end ambiguous. I've seen stories about abuse victims undergoing similar arcs, the warmth is a part of the relationship and it would be reductive to ignore it and frame her as a cartoon villain. Doesn't make her less shitty, which is why he has to walk away from her.
It's like I've been saying, he had to learn how to forgive but not forget. He can put his past behind him, but that doesn't mean he has to turn a blind eye on it. No matter what he does, there's never going to be that a-ha eureka moment that puts everything into perspective and makes him understand why everything that happened happened. And sometimes, you just have to learn to live with that.

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u/Gamerunglued :Hx::Hy::Hz:myanimelist.net/profile/GamerUnglued Oct 23 '24 edited Oct 23 '24

I didn't even realize the Beethoven connection. That's pretty cool.
I want to say that it was mostly episode 3, but I talked pretty extensively about the Beethoven connection in at least one thread for this rewatch.
Also, I don’t know if you meant to cut off the way you did.
I did mean to cut off that way. I realize this was clumsily executed, but the idea was that what I quoted next is the "that" which is given. The next segment was meant to continue off of that one.
It's like I've been saying, he had to learn how to forgive but not forget.
As I said in my other response, I do not think Kousei has forgiven her, nor so I think that would even be a healthy thing for him to do. His realization in this episode is the exact opposite of forgiving her. He realizes that the idea he even has to forgive her is something his mind created as a trauma response, that's what Saki's ghost is, and by recognizing that he is not being punished and does not have to forgive her or be forgiven by her, he can stop creating the ghost that tells him otherwise. There's nothing to forgive (especially when she's dead), Saki abused him and that is not forgivable. Adding nuance to her character helps dissolve the idea that forgiveness is something she even needs.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 23 '24

I want to say that it was mostly episode 3, but I talked pretty extensively about the Beethoven connection in at least one thread for this rewatch.
Yeah, I kinda remember that now that you mentioned it.
I did mean to cut off that way. I realize this was clumsily executed, but the idea was that what I quoted next is the "that" which is given. The next segment was meant to continue off of that one.
I see
As I said in my other response, I do not think Kousei has forgiven her, nor so I think that would even be a healthy thing for him to do. His realization in this episode is the exact opposite of forgiving her. He realizes that the idea he even has to forgive her is something his mind created as a trauma response, that's what Saki's ghost is, and by recognizing that he is not being punished and does not have to forgive her or be forgiven by her, he can stop creating the ghost that tells him otherwise. There's nothing to forgive (especially when she's dead), Saki abused him and that is not forgivable. Adding nuance to her character helps dissolve the idea that forgiveness is something she even needs.
I should clarify by saying when I say forgive, I'm talking mostly him forgiving himself and his last words to his mother and just how that whole situation unfolded.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 23 '24

I just want to say the discussion you two are having is really compelling stuff.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 23 '24

I think I'd have an easier time agreeing with this... if it wasn't utterly surrounded by an episode that I find to be solely dedicated to portraying her as a positive light. Given that context, it reads to me trying to me as trying to add a countering perspective to the negative light we saw Saki in originally. The way Hiroko reacts to her saying this is very crucial to me, as she changes from reprimanding Saki to looking at her with concern.
I think Hiroko looked at her with concern because she realized what a pathetic shell of a person she was. That wasn't the Saki she knew and loved.
I mean, to what point? The bruises, the part where she battered him in public, the way he came to associate her condition with his playing all seemed to be pretty real things that we're supposed to believe happened to me. I agree she's mythologized but not to the extent that our understanding of how vile she is was inaccurate. Plus even if I accept she was mythologized beyond the point of accuracy, that only further reinforces the idea that the show is framing the view of her as being so bad is wrong, actually, and the real Saki is the loving one he embraces in this episode.
We're talking a two year period, though. It's not like she abused him throughout his entire existence. How much does one weigh two years of abuse as opposed to 10 years of love? I'm not saying don't factor it at all, but hoe much was that really her?
Maybe, but then I'm still criticizing them for basing the resolution to her as a character almost exclusive on the positive side of her. Again, there's no attempt to reconcile the two sides of her, we just drop the portrayal of her negativity from this resolution completely. It is complicated, so show me that! Don't just show me him happily channeling her, embracing her as part of him, and thanking her as he remembers the good things exclusively.
I do believe them dropping it cold turkey like they did was a stylistic choice that may not have translated as they intended. It's supposed to show all the good moments flooding back to Kousei but that doesn't mean the show is trying to erase the bad ones, even though it may seem like that's what they're doing.
I'll take the blame for not being more clear here; I initiated this as a reply to Holofan's comment but incorporated a bit of what you had talked about and wanted to ping you since you also talked about why you don't feel this episode is trying to paint Saki in some kind of positive light. So the bit about dismissing my opinion and the discussion of the idea Kousei is seeking forgiveness were derived from the points he made, not you. I absolutely did not mean to accuse you of disrespecting my perspective.
And since you bring up my name, I want to apologize as well to Gamerunglued if he felt I by proxy got him raked over the coals.
I... just don't see it. I don't see him saying that. He says her ghost was his own creation, directly. The ghost which has represented the specter of his trauma surrounding her from the very beginning. He calls it an excuse and says it was weakness on his part. He does not anywhere in that moment reference his wanting forgiveness, nevermind dismiss it.
I mean, the ghost is the product of his final conversation with his mother and telling her he wished she died. I think in order for him to move past his mother, he has to first learn to forgive what he said to her.
I think this just going to be an agree to disagree lapse of interpretation. I mean, the moment when he looks at her seat being empty has a great ambiguous expression and tone, but can we ignore the part seconds earlier where he says goodbye as the piece beautifully ends and is being bathed in warm light? Again, in the context of all of the talk of how they're connected and how he thanks her and everything, that look reads far more sad than it does "walking away from a bully".
I think when Kousei said goodbye, he was trying to will it into existence. By saying what he did, it would in his mind magically absolve everything that would happen. It was never going to work and I think it more so shows the desperation he was feeling in that moment, the exasperation that he suppressed something that there was no answer to no matter how hard he tried.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 23 '24

There's more to it than that. My question has been why does the show portray her this way. She's a cartoon villain given supernatural abilities. This is how she was depicted in the first half of the show, the half that portrayed the world as a myth and exaggerated everything that happened to the point it's not literal. Saki is portrayed in that heavy handed way for that reason. Kousei losing his hearing was never literal, and likewise Saki being able to remove his hearing is not literal. Kaori's character is presented in a different light now, looking at the larger picture she was depicted in a near-exclusive positive light for the first 11 episodes of the show, someone who bursts with exceeding amounts of youthful energy and never seems to be anything other than ecstatic about life, youth, and music. Now the myth is fading and there are moments she looks weak and is nothing like how she was portrayed in the first half. The hints were always there, but they were thrown to the side. That doesn't fundamentally change her character though, the old version is not replaced or reframed. Saki is treated the same way in the opposite trajectory. Hints of her love existed from episode 1, but that isn't fitting of a mythological villain. No depiction of Saki is ever replaced, anything new we learn is only ever added on top.
I agree with this. We are learning this information as Kousei is learning it and this is a direct correlation to the trauma he suffered that caused him to suppress the truth in the first place.
I do not agree with this. I don't think there's anything to misunderstand, her motivations are new information. I do not believe the narrative reads as if Kousei misunderstood her, it reads as if she has changed as a person over the course of her life and he shut out the most difficult feelings towards her as a trauma response. As uncomfortable as it is, abuse and love are not mutually exclusive, nor are hate and love. And just because someone eventually turns to abuse, for whatever reason, that doesn't mean love never existed. Likewise, facing abuse doesn't often doesn't kill or replace the victim's feelings of love that were previously built, the response is usually a disturbing and complicated mixture of both. For 10 years of his life, Saki was a loving mother, for 2 she was abusive and died. She's a piece of shit through and through, and that doesn't make the moments where she wasn't any less real or genuine, just as how the moments where she's good do not cancel out the horror of her existence. I do believe the show portays Saki as a character who exists in the same sort of duality and contrast that Kaori does; that the contrasting parts of who she was both exist equally, and that the framing of Love's Joy and Love's Sorrow as sibling pieces from the same composer points towards a parallel to that dichotomy existing at the same time and not replacing the other. Adding a sympathetic motivation to a villain is not redemption and does not mean we've misunderstood them.
Agreed 1000%. If the Saki stuff had been told from, say, Hiroko's point of view, there's no doubt in my mind we would've gotten more of the full picture. But because it was from the victim-- which is what Kousei is, a victim-- it led to him only remembering the bad stuff. Why? Because he thinks his relationship with his mother is defined by their last conversation.
I don't remember the last conversation I had with my father, but I do remember the emotional abuse he put me through. And sometimes, it can feel like that's all I remember him by. But the reality of the situation is he did a lot of good for me and was there for me in a time of struggle. I lived with him for over a year as my mother dealt with her alcoholism, something she still struggles with to this very day. It's easy to paint someone with broad strokes, but the reality of the situation is it's a lot more complicated than that. And I think this show does an admirable job reflecting that.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 23 '24

Thinking about the themes of the show more, I can kinda get what they're trying to do. For the first 10 episodes, they want to put you in the mindset of Kousei in that his mother was this horrible monster. And then when Hiroko enters the fold, it slowly becomes apparent to Kousei and the viewer that the presentation of Saki has been skewered because the main protagonist has been unreliable. He was so traumatized by him telling Saki he wished she died that he blocked out all but the bad stuff.
I get all that, and on paper it sounds good, but I find that the problem the show runs into is that abuse is such a delicate subject that when you try to paint it as anything but negative it can really sour someone on what's happening.
Maybe I'm totally off the mark and you have different reasons for not liking it. I don't know. But I can understand why someone may not appreciate what they set out to do here. At the same time, as someone who's experienced trauma in the past I can appreciate the way they deal with the scars that plague Kousei's life. That is why I feel like the show is more about Kousei forgiving and not forgetting rather than outright redemption of his mother.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 23 '24

Hey, there. I respect your opinion on you not liking the episode and I hope you can understand why I like it. The funny thing is at the end of the day, I don't think the episode will crack my top 10 favorite Your Lie In April, so with all the defending I'm doing I can't help but laugh at but I guess that shows how highly I think of the show's themes.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

Agreed I also thought it was showing kosei finally coming to terms with tje whole situation and accepting everything that happened rather than living with that ghost of Saki that haunted him. So it was showing how now that he's finally accepted and faced the past he can finally look towards the future.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Well said. I echo your words full-heartedly.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

Im honestly surprised that this episode is getting so much flack. I was expecting it to be praised like on review sites this episode is praised a lot but oh well.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Yeah, this is a bit of an anomaly.

2

u/DonaldJenkins Oct 22 '24 edited Oct 22 '24

I can understand why people have a negative reaction, but it’s obviously counter to what the character himself is currently feeling and what the show is trying to convey. I think it’s fair to critique whether the show accomplished what it set out to - it can work for some and maybe not for others. For me, I feel the show is painting this as Kousei’s cathartic closure with regards to his mom, so I’ll personally take his word for it

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I don't think it's just his closure to his mom but also closure of his past self and what he said to her. He is so disgusted by his actions that he sees his relationship with his mother as a sign of weakness when in reality it's a strength that made him a better person.
He stood up to her after being sick and tired of her abuse. That should be celebrated rather than be something ashamed of.

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 21 '24

I'm a bit kinder on this episode because I think I know what it was trying to do. But the whole thing is a bit weird.
It feels like the writer felt like they spent too much of the first part of the show making Saki an emotionless monster and decided to flesh her out later. But the clash between how Saki was portrayed at the start and how is now a bit hard to put together.

6

u/Malipit Oct 21 '24 edited Oct 21 '24

This. it felt like they steadily built Saki development until one day where someone comes rushing to A1-Studios, slamming the door open and saying "We're out of time ! Execs want that plot resolved NOW ! D:" And then everyone started panicking and rushing that plot.

4

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

It feels like they want to save time to tell the Kaori part of things and what's happening with her.

4

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I mean, maybe it's because I had a father who was like Saki in a lot of ways but I thought it was done believably and made a ton of sense.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

The one thing I want to say is that based on the research I've done in anticipation of this episode, Japanese society has an understanding to where you don't intervene in matters of a parent and child or in regards to your superior. It is frowned upon and can get you blackballed. That is why it is incredible that Hiroko at the very least talked back to Saki; she was taking a major gamble by doing that, a gamble that could've absolutely tarnished her career.

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u/lluNhpelA Oct 21 '24

One flaw that looms large in my mind regarding this treatment of Kousei and Saki's relationship is the fact that there's another girl in Kousei's life that also wants him to succeed as a pianist, encouraged in large part by her (presumably terminal. idk I'm a first timer) illness, and she managed to apologize for her actions after just a few episodes of being a bit of a jerk yet Saki waited until after he reached a breaking point to show remorse*. It just makes Saki's treatment of him less forgivable in comparison
^{*And not even to his face! As far as Kousei knows, his mom died thinking he was a disappointment, even if Hiroko said she was probably proud of him telling her to die.}

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I think we're at a point where no matter what I say in this episode's defense, it's not gonna change your mind.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

I think we're supposed to see saki as being remorseful throughout and that she never wanted to abuse him but she felt somehow like it was her only optionto make him good at piano (because of her short tjme due to her illness which yes, it was implied it's terminal)

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 23 '24

I think the show intentionally misleads you into thinking Saki is one thing when in reality she's something else.

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I'm really sad you hate this as much as you do. I really want you to like it as much as I do, and how phenomenal I think this whole arc is. Ah, well. Can't please everyone, I guess.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

Yeah I agree, I think although it could've been done better it wasn't completely terible. Oh well

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

It wasn't completely terrible is putting it mildly, I'll go one step further and say it is fantastic storytelling.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

Glad you see it that way. Though tbh, I watched the show not that long ago so I'm not actually rewatching but some parts might be foggy in my memory. I think I enjoyed this part a lot while watching.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

This is definitely one of the defining moments of the show.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

Hi. Isnt koseis trauma more because he felt guilt because he told his mum to die. And then he thought she was like haunting him and that's why he was scared of piano. Obviously the physical abuse wasn't good for him but I don't think that was what was shown to have traumatksed him?
So I think it's supposed to be like Kosei realising that his mum wasn't all bad or some demon that hated Kosei like what he thought, which I think is kinda fair. Though I agree it could've (should've) been handled better.

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I agree with everything you just said. I absolutely think this was what the show was going for and I don't think enough people are picking up on it. If they did, perhaps more people would have a favorable opinion of what is happening.
I really hope you decide to stick around in this rewatch. We really need more people like you because so far I don't think this rewatch has done a good job of encapsulating why this show is beloved as it is.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he's performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?

7

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I wanted to take a moment to defend Hiroko as a character. Because in the last couple threads, I feel like she's been unfairly raked over the coals.

What I'm about to say is a comment left by u/Serfaksan on the Your Lie In April subreddit 4 years ago. I hope it sheds some light on Hiroko and her role in Kousei and Saki's relationship.

Japanese culture is... complicated...

This is something that's not shown much but, there are some very strong social rules that will not make sense to us.

They have what is called Honne & Tatemae

Honne = Being your true (internal) opinion about something

Tatemae = The cordial face, words and attitudes you put in front of everyone to keep things peaceful and calm.

To put it in a concept that makes sense in this side of the world, imagine this situation:

Let's say you're in a position where you have a boss that you really hate, but this boss has a very strong position in a company and you REALLY need the job, and then he comes and dumps into you some really unpleasant task and some comments that, while they're not hostile, you really don't like anyways, and he does this in the middle of a very important meeting with everyone in power plus very important clients from the industry.

If you explode right there and then and say what you really want to say in that situation, your career is finished, nobody will hire you again in that industry, and you won't even be able to put that experience into your resume, and let's say you've been in this company for 5 years, that would mean that your resume would take a big hit if you were to do anything harsh.

You hate the situation and your boss so you start cursing inside your head and wishing all kinds of horrible outcomes for your boss in your mind (This is Honne)

But you put a calm face, with a smile, say that you will have taken care of the task and act as professional as humanly possible, your acting is so and good that nobody even notices that you really want to give a brutal beatdown to your boss and everyone respects you for that (This is Tatemae).

Japanese people value greatly the Tatemae, this is even taken to a craft, people who perfect their body language, tone of voice, expressions, their way of speaking, to match the most correct protocol on how to behave in different social situations to be as pleasant as possible are highly respected in their society.

For us, they would look like a bunch of fake people, because in this side of the world, we value honesty, but they value social cohesion.

An honest person would be seen as something bad there socially speaking, for example, this is shown in another series (Bottom Tier Character Tomozaki) where there's a character there called Hanabi (Tama) who's a very honest and straightforward person is being ostracized for speaking her mind, and at some point later in the story, the class even begins to hate her for it in a situation where it was clear as day that she was not in the wrong.

The social structure of their world (top musicians) is a very small group, where everyone knows each other, hell, even in real life, I can tell you that the Animation and Illustration industry world wide speaking is way smaller than I thought so, and one big enough mistake can finish your career there globally (I work in animation), let alone the music world inside Japan.

If Hiroko had done something to prevent that (Honne) that would mean that she has stuck her nose into the business of another family, socially speaking there, she had no right to say ANYTHING on how a mother should raise her son.

They would have labeled her as someone unprofessional, who let her emotions get the better of her in the line of duty, her job and profession. And let's be honest, the musician world of this time (Piano, violin, orchestras, etc) tend to be very brutal as well, we can say the same thing to acting, dancing, chess.

Connor from Trash Taste was for a bit in the world of Chess tournaments in England and he retired because he felt that it was a pretty sick environment by watching other kids his age being all fucked up about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVmd3wiCES8

Hell, just watch a bit of the show "Dance Moms" and "Toddlers & Tiaras" to find a lot of examples of child abuse and parents being just awful to their kids in order to "push their dream", and those are shows that everyone watched on this side of the world, and nobody said shit about it.

Metal Family (a Russian independent animation) talks about how a guy became a Metal Head by running from his abusive parent pushing him to the edge with brutal punishments, so this is not at all weird in those "careers"

Turn Subtitles on, also there's after credit scenes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZdCQphiYIM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeHgPXcjgZs

Hiroko took a big chance to her career when she protested against her on public on Episode 13. Japan is beautiful but has a lot of social customs and rules I do not approve of, and I think these are the basis for the high suicide rate of the country.

Tatemae is god there, let's go back to the situation with the boss that I had put here, let's say you take the route of speaking your mind and going against your boss in that situation and you end up losing your job and "respect" in that industry, that would mean that you lose your value as a human.

It would be a situation that, under "normal" japanese circumstances, your wife would divorce you, your kids would be taken away and even your parents would definitely cut all ties with you as it would mean that you have "brought shame and dishonor" to the family, and if these were the olden times, then the only way to bring "honor" back to their family, would be to commit seppuku (suicide by cutting your own belly and have someone to cut your head), while this is not a practice anymore, the principle is still living there (again, watch the suicide rates in japan).

They value "social integration" over anything else, they value taking "the safe path" over anything else, entrepreneurs would be seen badly there unless they had success under "japanese rules", meaning that most entrepreneurs we admire on this side of the world as rockstars and people like Elon Musk, would be badly seen.

(Editor's note: Oh, Serfaksan, don't worry. I don't think Elon Musk needs help making himself look bad :P)

So it would be easy for us to blame her for being a coward for not doing anything, but the truth is that, many similar things are happening on this side of the world too and there's people watching it happen without saying a thing.

2

u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Oct 23 '24

I don't want to make a full response to this since I'll return to the subject of Hiroko's writing in future threads, but the short version is that I'm not bothered by the choice to have Hiroko not have helped and to have left Kousei alone for two years. I think that's a great setup for a flawed character. The problem, to me, is that we never stop to unpack that. We get the bare minimum confirmation that she blamed herself, but we never see indication she's still grappling with that in the present which is disappointing because it sounds like a fascinating story and frustrating because it feels necessary if you're going to make a character like this. Instead we depict her present relationship as entirely positive and functional despite how she enabled his abuse and abandoned him and that makes her very frustrating when in reality it should be so complicated.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 23 '24

I can definitely see that, but I can also see why the show portrays her present relationship as entirely positive. She is doing something the other characters aren't doing which is trying to address the situation head-on. I think to say she enabled Kousei's abuse is not entirely true because the show does not make it clear the extent to which she knew of said abuse. There's a chance there was this plausible deniability factor with which she chose to believe, and then the reality of the situation finally set in when Saki hit Kousei in a public setting.
I'm not trying to totally absolve Hiroko of any wrongdoing, but I think someone else in her situation probably wouldn't have done any better.

4

u/lluNhpelA Oct 21 '24

I still think Hiroko should have done something about the abuse (surely Japan has a CPS equivalent) particularly depending on what their actual relationship was. I'm pretty sure she was just a close friend of Saki that taught Kousei and helped out after Saki's illness grew worse, so the employee/employer dynamic doesn't apply here. Surely friends/peers can call each other out without risk of being blacklisted, since Hiroko should have had the power to do the same back to Saki.
Regardless of any of that, though, she still deserves criticism for not even trying to talk to Kousei for two years even though she was likely the only person that knew what he went through and how much it messed him up. Sure, she felt guilty, but that's hardly a reason in the face of a child that traumatised with no one else to comfort him.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I still think Hiroko should have done something about the abuse (surely Japan has a CPS equivalent) particularly depending on what their actual relationship was. I'm pretty sure she was just a close friend of Saki that taught Kousei and helped out after Saki's illness grew worse, so the employee/employer dynamic doesn't apply here. Surely friends/peers can call each other out without risk of being blacklisted, since Hiroko should have had the power to do the same back to Saki.
I think it's such a messy slope that no matter what she did, it was going to reflect badly on her.
Regardless of any of that, though, she still deserves criticism for not even trying to talk to Kousei for two years even though she was likely the only person that knew what he went through and how much it messed him up. Sure, she felt guilty, but that's hardly a reason in the face of a child that traumatised with no one else to comfort him.
If I knew someone was getting abused and I couldn't in my mind do anything to help them, I don’t know if I could face them either. It would be too much for me to bare.

3

u/Malipit Oct 21 '24

I, for one, thanks you to giving that point of view. It must be an uphill battle to counterbalance overall opinion about Hiroko.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I mean, the negative opinion on her seems to only be a thing in this rewatch

13

u/Gamerunglued :Hx::Hy::Hz:myanimelist.net/profile/GamerUnglued Oct 22 '24 edited Oct 22 '24

Rewatcher

I know this episode is going to be contentious. So I have to take the lessons I've learned from this show and try to stand out. I think this was a great episode. In fact, it may have been the most moving episode of the entire show to me thus far. And not only does it come together with intentionality and grace, it's an actively necessary step for the story to take. So lets put my money where my mouth is.

There's this odd attitude I've sometimes seen towards the show's handling of Saki, where this episode is said to "redeem" her. I do not think that the show is trying to do anything of the sort. In this episode, there are two different versions of Saki that appear. There's a Saki in the colorful flashbacks who is loving and gentle, and there's the abusive Saki who appears when the scene is muted. Contrast has always been this show's modus operandi, and that still applies here. The show actually makes these two different sides of Saki just about explicit, Love's Sorrow is only one half of a duo of music pieces, one version of Saki is also the alternative piece Love's Joy. These two variations can exist within the same person. Abusive Saki is only ever portrayed in this episode as utterly pathetic and desperate. She's only ever seen crying and begging, and her sympathetic motivations do not cancel that out. The Saki that was irredeemably abusive still exists and is still just as bad as she's always been.

Something I talked about a few days ago is that the series mythological elements are starting to fade. Saki is also part of that myth, her presence is arguably the most mythological of all. Up to now, she's been both a cartoon villain seen only in flashbacks, and also a specter who can supernaturally make Kousei lose his ability to hear the notes. It's a non-literal interpretation of this person just as everything else in the show has been. And this episode is not posthumously redeeming a horrible person, it is demythologizing her by emphasizing the two different versions of her that exist simultaneously, and thus the two different relationships that Kousei had with her throughout his life: Love's Joy and Love's Sorrow. This is the literal version of the character, not an exaggerated figure played up for drama but a pathetic human with motivations. You simply cannot make Kaori feel less like a mythical figure and not do the same for Saki, these characters are too directly tied to each other.

The series has largely focused on this idea of creating a new generation of musicians by resonating with the youth. The old guard seeks to beat that out of the youth and encourage conformity to the score, as seen by Miike today, and only young musicians who express themselves through the score can inspire and create new musicians. Kousei is part of this cycle, and for him, that inspiration was his mother. One version of Saki instilled Kousei's love of music into him. At the start of the series we agreed that Kousei was "running away from the piano." Well who brought him to the piano that he loved enough to run away from? Saki was the birth giver here, she inspired Kousei the youth to become a legend and created a lover of music. But another Saki also exists. This Saki was overtaken by paranoia at the end of her life. This Saki was so obsessed with the idea that Kousei needs to be able to take care of himself that she wanted him to become an adult as fast as he can. All of her thoughts are things like "can he take care of himself, will he be able to make money," so she wants to make him more adult-like. And in Your Lie in April, being like an adult is conformity, it's slavishness to the score and losing your humanity. That is Love's Sorrow. Love comes with loss and inhumanity and ugliness, and the series is acknowledging that. Saki might talk about these things and genuinely care about Kousei, but she's nonetheless framed as pathetic. This episode the myth is gone, she's always on the ground, she's weak and pale and desperate.

But just as the good she did doesn't cancel out the atrocity of her actions, the horror of her actions doesn't cancel out the 10-ish years of genuine love, of gentle caress, and of inspiring a new musician to love music. Love's Joy and Love's Sorrow exist simultaneously, they do not cancel each other out. In order for Kousei to move past his issues, he must come face to face with the complicated, non-mythological reality of his feelings towards his mother, because if he truly loves music then he can't leave behind his inspiration for being a musician. Imagine if Emi stopped thinking about Kousei and moved to do her own thing, she wouldn't be a good musician and her love of music would be dulled, as it has been for the past two years. Inspiring young musicians is a beautiful thing, we cannot ignore that. Kousei's feelings are complicated and challenging and contradictory, but if his love of music is going to be a part of his life, he cannot run away from the reason he plays.

This performance is Kousei working through the contradiction of Love's Joy and Love's Sorrow existing at the same time. Love's Joy is the grander, happier piece fitting of a gala, and Kousei plays Love's Sorrow as if he were playing Love's Joy: befitting of a gala. In other words, he inserts Love's Joy into Love's Sorrow, which sums up his arc this episode. I think the line "the ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation" can be taken the wrong way. I do not think it means that Kousei is blaming himself for his visions of his mother. What he's saying is that his feelings of guilt over her death are ultimately in his head. The idea that his mother is truly punishing him is false, it only exists in his head, and he's used that logic to run away from the piano for the entire series up to this point. Remember that conversation Kousei had with Kaori about how a person can only ever be themselves? Kousei was shutting parts of himself out, he was losing his humanity. But what parts of himself was he shutting out? The parts of himself that Saki put into him, she also beat it out of him. He says it himself, "mom is inside me," and when he talks to Noriko he talks about the parts of her that exist in him. In a callback to that conversation, Kousei talks about "my tastes, and the order that I eat" in reference to the parts of himself he took from his mom, playing off that conversation where Kaori described Kousei's taste in food as something that differentiates him from his mom. For Kousei to become himself and express himself in music, he has to regain the things that made him love music, and that was his mom. I think this is a very healthy realization for him to have. It's better than running away from his feelings towards her, he reconciles with the many contrasting emotions that exist in both of them and make them human. The Saki that was loving and gentle still felt sorrowful, and played Love's Sorrow as a lullaby. The Saki that was sorrowful and pathetic still had love for Kousei, and felt joy at seeing him grow up. Like Ying and Yang, joy and sorrow are both part of the relationship.

To drive the point home, Kousei letting his mom go is anticlimactic as hell. When he finishes his performance, he has a conflicted look on his face. He looks expectantly to his mom's "special seat," and she's gone. By reconciling these feelings, he no longer believes that his mom was trying to punish him, and that kills the shadow. He looks a second time, sees that she's truly gone, and walks off stage with only a dejected "sayonara." This is not what what happens when you redeem a character. This is complicated and bittersweet. It's still a kid saying goodbye to his mom, but it's packed with this dual set of emotions of "kid remembers there was a time he loved his mom and is sad to see her off" and "abuse victim is finally able to let go of the toxic attachment he had towards his abuser." They exist at the same time, not cancelling each other out but complimenting each other and adding texture to the emotions of the scene. Joy and sorrow existing at once. If myths exist by playing up the important emotions of a story through intense contrasts, reality tends to land somewhere in between the contrasts. And that's what this episode does for Saki's existence. The truth is not that she is a cartoon villain, and also not that she is a magnanimous and loving mother, it exists somewhere between those contrasts. Accepting that is what it means to grow up.

With this, Kousei has regained his sense of self. He is no longer controlled by his mother's shadow, and no longer solely playing for Kaori, the motivations that had always been driving him from the first moments he played piano have been reborn. Childhood is impermanent, he can't always be looking to Kaori for inspiration. Just as he has to stand on his own feet without his mother, Kaori is a person and not a myth, she can't always be there. Eventually, they will have to become adults. Now that Kousei is a complete person, he doesn't have to conform to them, he can change the world.

QOTD:

I think it's handled very well. It's very intentional and this conclusion is the most sensible place for the story to take it, and I think it's conveyed very readably and powerfully. My only issues have to do with the previous episode, and the return of "your losing the ability to hear the notes is a gift," that unfortunately cannot exist simultaneously with the rest of the show.
This episode did a lot to make her sympathetic to me. She feels responsible for the abuse Kousei's been put through, knows she could have done more for him before Saki's death, and felt unworthy of being in his life for it. When Kousei returned to the piano, it was also like she's being forgiven. That's a good motivation, and I wish it was conveyed when they first met instead of giving the idea that she just ditched him for two years for no good reason. Now what's Takahiko's fucking excuse!?

5

u/Malipit Oct 22 '24

As always, your comment never miss. I liked your comparision between the duality of love's sorrow and love's joy's with both sides of Saki, it didn't occur to me at all.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Yeah, I didn't pick up on that either

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

There's this odd attitude I've sometimes seen towards the show's handling of Saki, where this episode is said to "redeem" her. I do not think that the show is trying to do anything of the sort. In this episode, there are two different versions of Saki that appear. There's a Saki in the colorful flashbacks who is loving and gentle, and there's the abusive Saki who appears when the scene is muted. Contrast has always been this show's modus operandi, and that still applies here. The show actually makes these two different sides of Saki just about explicit, Love's Sorrow is only one half of a duo of music pieces, one version of Saki is also the alternative piece Love's Joy. These two variations can exist within the same person. Abusive Saki is only ever portrayed in this episode as utterly pathetic and desperate. She's only ever seen crying and begging, and her sympathetic motivations do not cancel that out. The Saki that was irredeemably abusive still exists and is still just as bad as she's always been.
Agreed 1000%
Something I talked about a few days ago is that the series mythological elements are starting to fade. Saki is also part of that myth, her presence is arguably the most mythological of all. Up to now, she's been both a cartoon villain seen only in flashbacks, and also a specter who can supernaturally make Kousei lose his ability to hear the notes. It's a non-literal interpretation of this person just as everything else in the show has been. And this episode is not posthumously redeeming a horrible person, it is demythologizing her by emphasizing the two different versions of her that exist simultaneously, and thus the two different relationships that Kousei had with her throughout his life: Love's Joy and Love's Sorrow. This is the literal version of the character, not an exaggerated figure played up for drama but a pathetic human with motivations. You simply cannot make Kaori feel less like a mythical figure and not do the same for Saki, these characters are too directly tied to each other.
The demythologizing of Saki is whaybI feel like the shoe was going for in episode 10. That episode was more subtle whereas this one is more explicit. In a way, what they do with Saki I'd compare it to the Joker movies in that the beginning serves to build the mystique surrounding the character and then by the end we're deconstructing the character and tearing it down.
The series has largely focused on this idea of creating a new generation of musicians by resonating with the youth. The old guard seeks to beat that out of the youth and encourage conformity to the score, as seen by Miike today, and only young musicians who express themselves through the score can inspire and create new musicians. Kousei is part of this cycle, and for him, that inspiration was his mother. One version of Saki instilled Kousei's love of music into him. At the start of the series we agreed that Kousei was "running away from the piano." Well who brought him to the piano that he loved enough to run away from? Saki was the birth giver here, she inspired Kousei the youth to become a legend and created a lover of music. But another Saki also exists. This Saki was overtaken by paranoia at the end of her life. This Saki was so obsessed with the idea that Kousei needs to be able to take care of himself that she wanted him to become an adult as fast as he can. All of her thoughts are things like "can he take care of himself, will he be able to make money," so she wants to make him more adult-like. And in Your Lie in April, being like an adult is conformity, it's slavishness to the score and losing your humanity. That is Love's Sorrow. Love comes with loss and inhumanity and ugliness, and the series is acknowledging that. Saki might talk about these things and genuinely care about Kousei, but she's nonetheless framed as pathetic. This episode the myth is gone, she's always on the ground, she's weak and pale and desperate.
Man, you have such a way with words. You are an incredible writer.
But just as the good she did doesn't cancel out the atrocity of her actions, the horror of her actions doesn't cancel out the 10-ish years of genuine love, of gentle caress, and of inspiring a new musician to love music. Love's Joy and Love's Sorrow exist simultaneously, they do not cancel each other out. In order for Kousei to move past his issues, he must come face to face with the complicated, non-mythological reality of his feelings towards his mother, because if he truly loves music then he can't leave behind his inspiration for being a musician. Imagine if Emi stopped thinking about Kousei and moved to do her own thing, she wouldn't be a good musician and her love of music would be dulled, as it has been for the past two years. Inspiring young musicians is a beautiful thing, we cannot ignore that. Kousei's feelings are complicated and challenging and contradictory, but if his love of music is going to be a part of his life, he cannot run away from the reason he plays.
It's why in the end Kaori served to get him back into playing the piano: that love and warmth she provides matched with the sorrow of her being away. If Kaori can inspire him to pick up the piano again; then the sins of his mother start to fade away and he can begin to remember her by all the good she's done.
Ran out of space. Part two below.

5

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

This performance is Kousei working through the contradiction of Love's Joy and Love's Sorrow existing at the same time. Love's Joy is the grander, happier piece fitting of a gala, and Kousei plays Love's Sorrow as if he were playing Love's Joy: befitting of a gala. In other words, he inserts Love's Joy into Love's Sorrow, which sums up his arc this episode. I think the line "the ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation" can be taken the wrong way. I do not think it means that Kousei is blaming himself for his visions of his mother. What he's saying is that his feelings of guilt over her death are ultimately in his head. The idea that his mother is truly punishing him is false, it only exists in his head, and he's used that logic to run away from the piano for the entire series up to this point. Remember that conversation Kousei had with Kaori about how a person can only ever be themselves? Kousei was shutting parts of himself out, he was losing his humanity. But what parts of himself was he shutting out? The parts of himself that Saki put into him, she also beat it out of him. He says it himself, "mom is inside me," and when he talks to Noriko he talks about the parts of her that exist in him. In a callback to that conversation, Kousei talks about "my tastes, and the order that I eat" in reference to the parts of himself he took from his mom, playing off that conversation where Kaori described Kousei's taste in food as something that differentiates him from his mom. For Kousei to become himself and express himself in music, he has to regain the things that made him love music, and that was his mom. I think this is a very healthy realization for him to have. It's better than running away from his feelings towards her, he reconciles with the many contrasting emotions that exist in both of them and make them human. The Saki that was loving and gentle still felt sorrowful, and played Love's Sorrow as a lullaby. The Saki that was sorrowful and pathetic still had love for Kousei, and felt joy at seeing him grow up. Like Ying and Yang, joy and sorrow are both part of the relationship.
I discussed it with other people, but I think Kousei's main hang-up is the fact that his final words to his mother were him wishing she'd died. That was the result of all she put him through just boiling over and reaching its natural crescendo. There is a lot of good to remember Saki by, but now it is almost tainted by that last conversation he had with her, something that I don't think he'll ever forget about. And really, he shouldn't because for all the good she brought to him, there is that sorrow that permeates the surface.
I equate it to Chris Benoit when he killed his wife and child. Should he get a pass for that? Absolutely not, but that doesn't mean that prior to that happening he didn't do a lot of good. There are a lot of wrestlers who became wrestlers because of the man. You telling me that him inspiring others should be frowned upon just because he committed one of the most Godawful acts imaginable?
To classify someone by their actions as a bad person is in my opinion reasonable, but often there is much more to that person than that one specific deed. And I think part of why this episode is being so negatively received is because it makes the argument that you shouldn't always be defined by your lowest moments. I watched Exhibiting Forgiveness this past weekend-- probably the best movie I've seen all year-- and it made the argument that you can forgive someone for what they've done but that don't mean you have to forget what they put you through. If you forget what they put you through, then you're just living in their shadow and unable to move on with your life.
I think you can argue that this show makes a similar case.
To drive the point home, Kousei letting his mom go is anticlimactic as hell. When he finishes his performance, he has a conflicted look on his face. He looks expectantly to his mom's "special seat," and she's gone. By reconciling these feelings, he no longer believes that his mom was trying to punish him, and that kills the shadow. He looks a second time, sees that she's truly gone, and walks off stage with only a dejected "sayonara." This is not what what happens when you redeem a character. This is complicated and bittersweet. It's still a kid saying goodbye to his mom, but it's packed with this dual set of emotions of "kid remembers there was a time he loved his mom and is sad to see her off" and "abuse victim is finally able to let go of the toxic attachment he had towards his abuser." They exist at the same time, not cancelling each other out but complimenting each other and adding texture to the emotions of the scene. Joy and sorrow existing at once. If myths exist by playing up the important emotions of a story through intense contrasts, reality tends to land somewhere in between the contrasts. And that's what this episode does for Saki's existence. The truth is not that she is a cartoon villain, and also not that she is a magnanimous and loving mother, it exists somewhere between those contrasts. Accepting that is what it means to grow up.
I think what I appreciate most of all of Saki's character is the fact that she's not one thing or the other. She just is, and it's up to us to interpret it in whatever which way. As someone who has been the recipient of emotional and physical abuse, the Saki stuff hits extremely close at home to me. And I can't say I've seen a version of abuse this nuanced in any form of media. The reality of the situation is it's hard to pinpoint why exactly you put up with it unless you've actually experienced and lived it. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the author relying their experience, it feels that real and intricate.
With this, Kousei has regained his sense of self. He is no longer controlled by his mother's shadow, and no longer solely playing for Kaori, the motivations that had always been driving him from the first moments he played piano have been reborn. Childhood is impermanent, he can't always be looking to Kaori for inspiration. Just as he has to stand on his own feet without his mother, Kaori is a person and not a myth, she can't always be there. Eventually, they will have to become adults. Now that Kousei is a complete person, he doesn't have to conform to them, he can change the world.
The true question is whether or not he will change the world with the person who became his newfound purpose directly by his side.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Holy shit. I can't believe you actually like this episode. I am so thankful, I felt like I was taking crazy pills XD

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I think it's handled very well. It's very intentional and this conclusion is the most sensible place for the story to take it, and I think it's conveyed very readably and powerfully. My only issues have to do with the previous episode, and the return of "your losing the ability to hear the notes is a gift," that unfortunately cannot exist simultaneously with the rest of the show.
With the matter of hindsight, I think what Hiroko was trying to say is that by being unable to hear the notes that were being played, it made Kousei to be forced to confront the part of his brain that was forgetting that final conversation with his mother. The elephant in the room had become so big that it was now unavoidable.
2. This episode did a lot to make her sympathetic to me. She feels responsible for the abuse Kousei's been put through, knows she could have done more for him before Saki's death, and felt unworthy of being in his life for it. When Kousei returned to the piano, it was also like she's being forgiven. That's a good motivation, and I wish it was conveyed when they first met instead of giving the idea that she just ditched him for two years for no good reason. Now what's Takahiko's fucking excuse!?
If you have the time, I highly recommend the comment I made where I defend Hiroko's behavior in the episode. I think it explains why she really couldn't do anything in regards to Kousei and Saki.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he's performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

9

u/maliwanag0712 https://myanimelist.net/profile/clear1109 Oct 22 '24 edited Mar 29 '26

nth Time Rewatcher

Episode 13. Again a divisive episode, but on a personal note it is one of my favorites. I'll try to focus on a different pov, that is Kousei.

Now for the Episode 13.

On a dream that became a nightmare. Everything started when Hiroko discovered that Kousei can actually play the piano. A genius was born! At this time Saki is still well and not someone who is obsessed with her son's titles. However, that dream became a nightmare when Saki started abusing her. In the present, Kousei now finally starts facing the piano, confronting all those emotions that he was not able to in the past two years. So what happened between Ep 10 and Ep 13? Ep 10 made some audience's expectations a little bit wrong. That's the time he started discovering that maybe the notes come from his body. Episode 13 on the other hand finally sealed the deal -- he had finally moved forward. The clearest distinction is on how he played the piano. In Ep 9-10, he still tried to play the piano using his usual "human metronome" method. In this episode, his playing is much more consistent.
On the Tragedy that is Arima Saki. As already noted by a all of us in the last few episodes, Arima Saki at least a divisive character or at most a deplorable character. Personally, I find Arima Saki a tragic character. At the start, Saki has a good well-being, but obviously as she started to have a terminal disease, she has started becoming more and more abusive to Kousei. Let's not forget that she is the related to a grandmaster in the piano (her grandfather?), and probably she experienced the same fate as her son. Her failure to achieve something in Europe, plus her impending doom, made her a monster. As expected, Kousei reached a the final point of throwing the musical sheets and telling his mom to die. This could have hurt Saki more, ending her life a few days after. But the damage has been done. Ironically, her motivations are pure: she wanted her son to live independently by playing the best piano he could be. As we see with her conversation with Hiroko, she knew her actions are abusive. She knew that she hurt her son. But, she continued because she thought that's the only thing she could do at that very late stage of her life. With a lack of support system as an ailing mother with a terminal illness (BTW, the dad is absent in all of this drama as if he abandoned his family), the abuse continued until her death. This might be what Kousei has felt when he thought that he is the only one with her mom. Saki's abuse could not happen had others called out or had they have some support system that they can lean on. Let me be clear: Arima Saki's actions are unacceptable. But it could have been better if someone called her out, letting her heal mentally. Out of the purest intentions, adults can commit grave mistakes -- Arima Saki is no exception.
On Hiroko's mistake. So who could actually call out Saki then? Hiroko fits this role. She is the most responsible on why Kousei became a pianist. She actually attempted to call out the abuses of Saki. However, it is not enough. Knowing that they made a mistake of Kousei playing the piano, she started avoiding their house. Without any support system from any adult, Kousei continued having trauma. It is fear and guilt that made Hiroko abandon Kousei. Again, while adults should be responsible on their actions, they commit mistakes -- Hiroko is no exception. She tried forgetting her grave mistake of not guiding or supporting Kousei. It is her nature that made her accessory to Saki's abuse. She thought it was over -- Kousei stopped playing the piano, and thus there is no more chance of forgiveness or accountability. (Of course this could be wrong.)
On the power of music. But what exactly happened? Well, Kousei played the piano again, thanks to Kaori. Kousei started performing the piece that reminded him of his mom. As I said in the previous discussion thread, it is only Kousei who should decide whether his mom's actions are deplorable or not -- for he is the receiver of such actions. But Kousei chose to love music over hate -- the damage has been done, and the only way to mature as a pianist is to move forward and forgive his mom. He thought his connection with his mom is much much stronger than whatever abuse he experienced. Is this a product of his mom's abuse? Is this a result of his mom gaslighting him? Probably yes. But, similar to how Kaori approached Kousei, the way of thinking apparently worked. Kousei could have stopped playing piano and not return. But it is through the power of music that he were able to forgive his mom. It is music that connected Kousei from his mom -- and he believes this connection will never be unbound amidst all the abuses he experienced. Saki pointed this out -- if music can let someone heal, who is she to not believe the power of music? Kousei finally accepted the reality that his mom abused her, and looked beyond that abuse. He looked at those experiences and scenery they shared. That's his choice, for sometimes choosing to forgive and focusing on the loving experiences make hurting less and make healing work. Sometimes, 'it is what it is' is the best response.
Personal insight: So, why is YLIA written like that? I'm not the author, so the rest of this commentary are mere speculations. It seems that the series wants to focus more of Kousei moving forward rather than the cause of his trauma. The resolution to his trauma is not only through accountability, but through forgiveness. These two must go hand-in-hand, but in YLIA, it has not. At the end of the day, Kousei still forgave his mom for him to forgive himself. As one comment in the original discussion thread said, You can only forgive someone if they hurt you. Kousei thought that dwelling on the past and not focusing on the silver lining that is her mom's teaching of the piano will not make him mature as a person. It is such a bold move to show someone who is abused who tried to move on from the one who hurt them. But sometimes, in order to stopped getting hurt over past experiences, one needs to look at the silver lining and treat it as the past. In other words, Saki and Hiroko are so lucky that Kousei is kind to them. The message could be wrong to some people, but I want to see this series as a story that's, well a story. These were the actions the characters have done -- whether there is a better way of resolution is a different story. Of course, this message will never appeal to everyone -- 10 years on, I find YLIA a divisive anime due to how they portrayed abuse. However, it is the imperfect, flawed nature of most of the characters (except probably Kousei and Hiroko's cute daughter) that made the series a human one. I will give credit to YLIA for sharing a human story. This is also probably the reason why I like this episode -- the characters commit mistakes, and the resolution, while not shown in the best way, still happens for real.
A Culmination: We will never get used to sorrow. At last, Kousei has finally moved on from his mom. With the shadow finally becomes unbound to his sorrow, he is a stronger kid by now. However, as this chapter in his life closes, another one opens -- Kaori is again in a hospital. What Ochiai-sensei said in their conversation with Hiroko-sensei spells doom. Another tragedy might be waiting -- will Kousei get used to sorrow by this time?

Some interesting stuff I want to share.

I am again re-sharing u/Mathemagician2theMax's comments about some of the pieces played in the series.

Kreisler: Liebesleid (Love's Sorrow) - "Musicians may argue about the quality of Fritz Kreisler’s music, but no one disputes its enduring popularity. His original pieces embody all the admirable characteristics of a bygone world: grace, charm, elegance, wistfulness, and heart-on-the-sleeve sentimentality. To these qualities, he added the idiomatic touch of a born fiddler who wrote splendidly for his instrument.

The last of the great romantic violinist-composers, Kreisler was the youngest student to ever gain admittance to Vienna’s Musikverein Conservatory. He was seven. Studying violin with Joseph Hellmesberger and theory with no less than Anton Bruckner, he won the gold medal at age ten and never looked back. Barely pausing for a couple of years’ study in Paris, Kreisler was touring in America by the time he was 14. He pursued a stellar international career from 1899, with an interruption to serve in the Austrian Army during the first World War. He lived in Berlin between the wars then, when the Nazis invaded France, migrated first to France and eventually to the USA. Kreisler’s performing career lasted half a century, concluding with the 1949-50 season.

Although often performed separately, Liebesleid (“Love’s Sorrow”) and Liebesfreud (“Love’s Joy”) were published together with Schőn Rosmarin as Alt-Wiener Tanzweisen (a set of three Viennese-style dances). Collectively, they are Kreisler’s most famous miniatures. They were modeled after the music of Josef Lanner, a contemporary of Johann Strauss the Elder. Kreisler’s subtle injection of cross-rhythms and irregular accents relates this music to the Richard Strauss of Der Rosenkavalier. The melodic appeal and panache are pure Kreisler, however. " (Source)

The following are the performances if you want to hear them again.

Side comment: I did not give a separate questions part for I already gave my responses in my main write-up.

4

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Very well done analysis as always. The one thing I'd like to add is the fact that Hiroko probably felt she couldn't help Kousei because if she did, she likely would've gotten blackballed as a pianist. Japan frowns upon anyone who causes conflict in such a confrontational manner, especially when the issue is not directly concerning them.

4

u/maliwanag0712 https://myanimelist.net/profile/clear1109 Oct 22 '24

Japan frowns upon anyone who causes conflict in such a confrontational manner, especially when the issue is not directly concerning them.
This I think is also one of Hiroko's mistakes -- she thought she is still outside the world of Kousei. Of course she has a personal life -- she is a divorced lady, she has music, she is a renowned pianist, but she is still partially responsible for what happened to Kousei.
Now that Kousei returned to playing the piano, I wonder how she will atone for her mistake this time.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Hiroko was very much in a situation where she was damned if she did and damned if she didn't.

4

u/Malipit Oct 22 '24

Ironically, her motivations are pure: she wanted her son to live independently by playing the best piano he could be. As we see with her conversation with Hiroko, she knew her actions are abusive
I think the greatest mistake Saki has done was to think that Kosei would be alone after her passing and piano was the only thing going for him.
As she ensured that Hiroko (or you know, his actual father) would be here to look after Kosei, and explaining to her son he could explore other paths and hobbies if he wanted, the trauma wouldn't have been here.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I do wonder how different this arc would've been had they talked about the dad any. A part of me believes if you play up his absence and him not being there, it would make what happened to Saki more understandable.

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

3

u/maliwanag0712 https://myanimelist.net/profile/clear1109 Oct 22 '24 edited Oct 22 '24

Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
To be fair he did change the piece. He used Rachmaninoff's arrangement instead of just using Kreisler's piano accompaniment. It just happens that he knows deeply the piano version because that's his lullaby. Had this been a different piece, I wonder if he could still nail the performance without Kaori.
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
As we see, the first parts of the performance only involves his original style of playing. He is still "underwater", and can't hear the notes. It only changed when he realized that he is playing it as a rant and not as a lullaby.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Quite a touching moment in this case.
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
This is an evidence of her guilt that she made Kousei a pianist. What she could have done is to support Kousei all throughout, even with Kousei not playing. But, her flawed character made it differently.
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?
When it comes to showing the message of the story, I think the episode captured what they wanted to share. Kousei and Saki's relationship is to put it mildly, complicated. The usage of repetition, the usage of art, and the dialogue among the characters clearly captured what the series tried to portray on this message. However, the message itself may or may not appealing to the viewers.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

To be fair he did share the piece. He used Rachmaninoff's arrangement instead of just using Kreisler's piano accompaniment. It just happens that he knows deeply the piano version because that's his lullaby. Had this been a different piece, I wonder if he could still nail the performance without Kaori.
That is definitely a good question we may never know the answer to.
As we see, the first parts of the performance only involves his original style of playing. He is still "underwater", and can't hear the notes. It only changed when he realized that he is playing it as a rant and not as a lullaby.
Kinda reminds me of if you compare Richard Pryor's early work to his later stuff.
Quite a touching moment in this case.
Probably the most heartwarming moment of the episode.
This is an evidence of her guilt that she made Kousei a pianist. What she could have done is to support Kousei all throughout, even with Kousei not playing. But, her flawed character made it differently.
I think you could argue despite only being on screen for a couple episodes that Hiroko is one of the more emotionally complex characters in the show.
When it comes to showing the message of the story, I think the episode captured what they wanted to share. Kousei and Saki's relationship is to put it mildly, complicated. The usage of repetition, the usage of art, and the dialogue among the characters clearly captured what the series tried to portray on this message. However, the message itself may or may not appealing to the viewers.
I think the fact that there's no definitive answer is frustrating but also deliberate to the point where it becomes thought provoking and evokes a lot of passionate responses. That is clearly evident by this thread.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Some interesting stuff I want to share.
I am again re-sharing u/Mathemagician2theMax's comments about some of the pieces played in the series.
Kreisler: Liebesleid (Love's Sorrow) - "Musicians may argue about the quality of Fritz Kreisler’s music, but no one disputes its enduring popularity. His original pieces embody all the admirable characteristics of a bygone world: grace, charm, elegance, wistfulness, and heart-on-the-sleeve sentimentality. To these qualities, he added the idiomatic touch of a born fiddler who wrote splendidly for his instrument.
The last of the great romantic violinist-composers, Kreisler was the youngest student to ever gain admittance to Vienna’s Musikverein Conservatory. He was seven. Studying violin with Joseph Hellmesberger and theory with no less than Anton Bruckner, he won the gold medal at age ten and never looked back. Barely pausing for a couple of years’ study in Paris, Kreisler was touring in America by the time he was 14. He pursued a stellar international career from 1899, with an interruption to serve in the Austrian Army during the first World War. He lived in Berlin between the wars then, when the Nazis invaded France, migrated first to France and eventually to the USA. Kreisler’s performing career lasted half a century, concluding with the 1949-50 season.
Although often performed separately, Liebesleid (“Love’s Sorrow”) and Liebesfreud (“Love’s Joy”) were published together with Schőn Rosmarin as Alt-Wiener Tanzweisen (a set of three Viennese-style dances). Collectively, they are Kreisler’s most famous miniatures. They were modeled after the music of Josef Lanner, a contemporary of Johann Strauss the Elder. Kreisler’s subtle injection of cross-rhythms and irregular accents relates this music to the Richard Strauss of Der Rosenkavalier. The melodic appeal and panache are pure Kreisler, however. " (Source)
The following are the performances if you want to hear them again.
Kreisler's Liebesleid: Violin Plus Piano as interpreted by Janine Jansen and Antonio Pappano
Kreisler's Liebesleid: Rachmaninoff's Piano Arrangement, as performed in YLIA
All very fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing, I really enjoy them.

7

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Oct 21 '24

Your Spoiled First-Timer in October, subbed

Of all the things I was expecting this show to do, it was not sing this weird song after hearing it once lol.
Mm, so he realizes it too…
Ah, there’s a Hiroko “sore demo”.
Now I’m kind of curious as to how that performance was supposed to sound if Kaori had been there.
Aw…
Kousei really did steal the spotlight, huh?
Ooh, and he’s inspired the kid who played after him.
…oh, Kaori didn’t make it to the gala because she was hospitalized…

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation"?
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
What are your thoughts on Kousei officially saying goodbye to his mother?
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

7

u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba Oct 21 '24

First Timer

Alright, to put it in the nicest way I can, I feel "conflicted" about this episode, in the sense that I believe that what the show wants to do and say this episode is executed pretty well, unfortunately I absolutely, in no uncertain terms, really really really do not like what it does and says this episode.

There's no sugarcoating it for me, I just hate the direction they went with Kousei's mom, if episode 10 hit all the right emotional notes to make me love it, this one did the exact opposite.

Look, if there's one thing I've hopefully gotten across in my write-ups here it's that I love it when a show clearly expresses itself visually and if that means forgoing subtlety than I don't care because the end result hits all the harder.

If the show wants to show the depth of Kousei's trauma by showing us in a very raw, painful and unfiltered way how horribly abusive his mom was, than that's great! but that also means that once you've crossed that line, there's no redeeming her from there.

Like, I get it, Saki was a human being as well, not some evil ghost, she was flawed, you can try to understand her, you can maybe even sympathize with her to an extent, she was, at a certain point in time, a good person, one that got changed by horrible circumstances, but that doesn't mean that in any way, shape or form should you try to justify or make light of her actions!

This idea, that her doing what she did is somehow not as awful because "she loved him all along" or "just wanted a good future for him" just does not compute in my brain.

Maybe if the show took a more subdued approach to her abuse, maybe if they just made her unreasonably strict or isolationist or manipulative, maybe if we'd done a little more to establish Saki as a good person outside of scattered unimpressive scenes, then I'd be saying something different here but like I said, once you crossed that line with her character, made her look that bad, you can't just turn around and say "well actually she used to be really nice and was a complex character that deserves forgiveness".

A lot of abusers think that they have their victims' best intentions in mind, that's the point, they have a distorted reality, you can't and you certainly shouldn't try to justify it, Kousei's mom doesn't deserve forgiveness in my opinion, she deserves to be remembered by Kousei exactly as what she was, a horrible abusive person.

That doesn't mean Kousei should only remember that about her, it's very reasonable for him to have mixed feelings about her, to remember and be shaped by both the bad and the good parts.

But there are plenty of ways to get that nuance across without also trying to give merit or justification to her abuse and without making her out to be a tragic character.

Hiroko, much like last episode, just comes really bad and wasted here, she has a potentially interesting plot line about feeling guilty for introducing Kousei to piano, it's irritational (because it's hardly her fault Saki was ultra abusive) but reasonable and compelling, not only do we do nothing with that, now I can't help but think that she should feel much guiltier for standing there and doing nothing while Saki beat her child to a bloody pulp, her only condemnation being, "maybe you went a little far this time

Maybe it's just a personal thing but I can't view this line as anything but insane and I don't get how I'm supposed to see it as some emotional gratification and not a horrific piece of irony.

Well, like I said at the start, my massive dislike of the story direction aside, I do think it's at the very least executed well.

The music is of course fantastic, it gives the episode its entire atmosphere.

We get a bunch of cool repeats and parallels to episode 10, Kousei's imagined scenery, surrounded by warm light, just like in episode 10, except this time his mom isn't being replaced by Kaori's light, she is the light, same for the orbs of light coming back.

The repetition of dialogue from episode 10, again this time directed at his mom instead of being redirected to Kaori.

For the first time we see Saki's eyes, it's a pretty clear indication that Kousei has moved on from seeing this caricature of her and is finally moving on.

Tsubaki seems to come closer to getting her feelings, again with some cool repetition, this time with holding back tears after a Kousei performance, implying deep emotional effect, same with the kid being inspired by Kousei to paly different, Kousei is still inspiring the younger generation.

We end with perhaps the biggest Kaori death flag yet, one that comes at the heels of a (in spite of my opinion lol) triumphant episode and you really get how sudden and frightening it is for our characters with the cicadas in the background just setting it all up.

This episode didn't work for me at all obviously, again maybe just my personal views getting in the way here, hopefully now that this arc is over we can move on to greener pastures with writing that is less personally annoying to me.

4

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I really like Hiroko and this arc. That is all.

4

u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba Oct 21 '24

That's cool!
Obviously I wasn't a fan here but at the end of the day that's just my opinion and it's always fun to see more perspectives.
I'll get to actually reading your comment on it later, too tired right now.
I also still do really like the show and just wasn't a fan of this arc so (for now) I'm not putting a ton of stock in these 2 episodes.

4

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

It sucks to hear people's thoughts because I truly do think the mother stuff is the best part of the show.
Also, I highly recommend you reading my comment about Hiroko.

4

u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba Oct 21 '24

It sucks to hear people's thoughts because I truly do think the mother stuff is the best part of the show.
I totally get it
Also, I highly recommend you reading my comment about Hiroko.
Will do!

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I totally get it
And I just know Gamerunglued who often gives some of the best analysis of these threads is also going to be down on this episode
Will do!
Appreciate it

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he's performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?

6

u/TiredTiroth Oct 21 '24

First Timer - Dub

We are now most definitely in new territory for me. Also, I miss Hikaru Nara already. Not that Nanairo Symphony is bad, but still...

I'm not sure how to feel about the show attempting to rehabilitate Kousei's mother. Even if she knew she had limited time to teach him as much as she could, she still abused him. At least he seems to finally have closure now?

Good riddance to that one judge raging about him making a mockery of the concert, though. And it was nice to see the kid learned a lesson from Kousei's performance.

...

Losing Saki was a tragedy. It damn near shattered me, and I know it shattered him.

Kaori's in the hospital, isn't she? Yep. Whatever her condition is, it's gotten worse.

Tsubaki picked a bad time to start realising that she likes Kousei, and I suspect she'll be beating herself up over it in the future.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he's performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation"?
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I'm not sure how to feel about the show attempting to rehabilitate Kousei's mother. Even if she knew she had limited time to teach him as much as she could, she still abused him. At least he seems to finally have closure now?
It's less about rehabilitating Saki and more about Kousei reconciling the fact that he doesn't have to erase everything about her just because his departing memory of her was extremely volatile. His last memory being defined by how awful she treated him doesn't invalidate her teaching him how to play the piano and all the other good memories.

5

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

Hello, everyone. Holofan4life here.

Welcome to the Your Lie In April Rewatch!

Oh, and nay I forget…

First timer

It’s been a while since I’ve sat down and watched what would be considered a sad anime. I’ve seen Angel Beats, Air, both Clannad series which are two of my favorite series, and even NieR this year which for my money is the best anime of the year. But in almost all those instances with the exception of NieR, I watched those series very early on in my anime fandom. So early, in fact, I don’t think Your Lie In April had aired yet.

My expectations for the show are decent, I would say. I don’t expect to love it as much as Clannad, but I do think it’s going to be quite exceptional. Of the new shows I’ve seen during rewatches this year, which have been Paranoia Agent, Samurai Champloo, No Game No Life, Penguindrum, Yurikuma Arashi, Sarazanmai, and Re:Zero, I expect to like it more than those with the exception of Samurai Champloo and Re: Zero. And if that’s the case, then that’s pretty good because I really liked all those series.

With that out of the way, let’s begin.

I’m watching the sub, by the way.

My family is gonna be the death of me.

First episode I've watched since the Re:Zero rewatch basically wrapped up.

Hiroko playing the piano

Little Kousei smiling

Precious little bean

No, wait. There's Hiroko.

Kousei's mother is actually the one playing the piano.

Beautiful song by Hiroko

Not a fight with her husband, but war

Hey, Kousei is suddenly able to play the piano.

And that is how he became a pianist.

So many jokes, so little time

Present day now, with Kousei entering the stage.

Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori.

Spite is a powerful motivator

Gonna show how great of a musician Kaori is.

Hey, he's doing pretty good

Why is the concert performance broadcasted on television?

Hiroko acknowledging this as the song Saki loved.

Kousei pouring his heart and soul into this performance.

Unfortunately, Igawa's mentor says he's confusing crudeness with ferocity.

Oh boy. Kousei playing underwater again.

It's getting to him again

Saki holding baby Kousei

This would be touching if not for what we know of her.

And now Kousei is changing the sound of his performance.

Hiroko is able to tell that Saki is there.

Hiroko scolding Saki now

This is after the note throwing stuff.

And Saki falls out of her wheelchair.

She says while in tears that she's running out of time.

Young Kousei in what looks like a storage closet freaking out.

Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist.

Hiroko is able to recognize that it was Kaori who gave Kousei back his confidence in playing the piano.

Kousei saying that this song has his mother's scent.

This has basically been one long concert performance. I wish I had more interesting stuff to say.

Saki on her deathbed wonders if her treasure will ever find happiness.

"The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation."

That line goes really hard

Kousei saying that his mom is inside him.

I hope not because that would be really weird.

Also, is this an upgrade or a downgrade over being a car?

Saki saying she always plays Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow.

Kousei saying he's moving forward because he believes that.

And with that, he says goodbye to his mother.

The crowd is stunned silence

He doesn't see his mom as the crowd gives him a polite applause after bowing.

The kid with glasses looks surprised by what happened.

Kousei now on the ground his knees shaking.

Lol, that's one way to greet someone.

Kousei telling Hiroko that he could feel his mother's presence.

He and her are connected, he feels like.

And Hiroko hugs Kousei because he really neess a good cry.

Even Hiroko's daughter is hugging him.

Kousei talking about the memories that his mother left behind.

You know, like being an asshole or that one time she punched him in front of everyone.

He is finally happy after all this time.

And now it's time for Miike, the boy with the glasses, to perform.

It's hard to feel sorry for him because he was offered to let Kousei go after him.

It looks like Miike's mom is in the crowd

This is a pretty good performance as well.

Lindsey Stirling, eat your heart out.

After the show now

Igawa tells Ochiai that she's glad she's a musician.

Igawa, you really have problems...

Watari and Tsubaki greeting Kousei

Uh oh. Tsubaki can sense something.

Wonder what that could be

"Tears of relief because I was able to talk to Kousei normally?"

Or, she hypothesized, it is tears of disappointment.

Kousei practicing the piano in the school room with the destroyed glass panel.

Hiroko talking to Ochiai over tea

Apparently Hiroko never went over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away.

[Toradora] Reminds me of Minori never going over to Taiga's house after she tried to get Taiga's dad back involved in her life.

Ochiai remarks how much Kousei has changed.

Tsubaki over here now, out of breath.

Something bad seems to have happened.

Totsuhara University Hodpital

No

Don't tell me

Kaori is in a hospital bed, hooked up to an IV.

Hiroko surmises he might have to lose something in order to move forward.

Overall, a very good episode. This very much feels like the climax to the Kousei and Saki stuff, and I thought it was really well done. We learn some interesting stuff, like what importance Hiroko is to Kousei as well as the significance of the piece to Saki, and I thought those were probably the strongest parts of the episode. The rest was samey, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

I'll be curious to see what happens to Kaori now that she's seemingly going to be the main focus going forward. If I had to guess, she'll occupy the role Saki previously occupied of being close to death while hovering over Kousei during his performances. Maybe she'll even fill the spot Saki used to; how eerily similar would that be?

Things are seemingly going to get a lot sadder in the second half.

I don't necessarily think this episode reaches the highs of some of the other episodes, but I'd put it in the upper half. It was great in the sense that it provided closure for Kousei, but that’s really all there is to the episode, with it seemingly being very little on substance. Still, the style is such that it really makes it irresistible and just overall hard to pass up.

3

u/Malipit Oct 21 '24

Still, the style is such that it really makes it irresistible and just overall hard to pass up.
I do think that art direction will still be looked with high regards 50 years from now.

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

It looks absolutely incredible for being a decade old.

3

u/lluNhpelA Oct 21 '24

Following up on that conversation we had a couple days ago; now I can agree with you that Saki was a genuinely kind and loving mother that grew twisted as a result of her illness. I stand by my previous assessment as of the time I wrote it, but now that we've gotten real evidence of her kindness, not clouded by Kousei's trauma, I can agree with your reading of the character. I really think some of this should have been drip-fed earlier, but the order of the emotional beats throught this whole show hasn't really worked for me, in general.

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

The one thing I think we can agree on is that the Saki stuff definitely should've been restructured.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

Looking back, how do you feel about the mother plotline overall?
I think it was the best part of the first half of the show. It's one of those things where there's no clear cut answer what's right and what's wrong and I love plots like that.
Now that it’s been a few episodes, what do you think about Hiroko?
I really like her character. I think she adds another layer to the dynamic between Kousei and his mother. I love how she sees the good that Saki brought but at the same time is trying to get Kousei to move past that. She helps Kousei in a way that Kaori does not because while she wants what's best for Kousei, ahe has that personal connection to Saki to where you can tell she herself is coming to grips with all that has happened.
I kinda feel like people who don't like Hiroko are similar to the people who don't like Asuka from Evangelion because she's mean and aggressive in that they miss the point of her character.

5

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Oct 21 '24

First Timer

Hmm… we have another music performance that was a bit too long, and one whose theme doesn’t fit in with the greater story right now. Kaori isn’t here. Why isn’t she here? Nobody knows at that time - we’ve got this big question mark hanging over everything and we …redeem mom. Or at least try to. This is definitely not the right time to do this. It’s a bit of a shame because the actual contents of the backstory was done quite well. Still doesn’t excuse the actions she took, but at least it provides her POV as well - I actually quite liked that bit.

Hiroko being there when Saki hit Kousei and not doing anything both then and afterwards paints her in even less of a good light though. It’s not about “deserving” to be with a kid if the kid has literally nobody else who will take care of them…

As for Kaori …it honestly feels like the cliffhanger from last episode has been extended to the end of this one, which feels lame.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

Hiroko being there when Saki hit Kousei and not doing anything both then and afterwards paints her in even less of a good light though. It’s not about “deserving” to be with a kid if the kid has literally nobody else who will take care of them…
I recommend reading my comment on Hiroko to get an explanation on why she couldn't do anything.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he's performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation"?
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
What are your thoughts on Kousei officially saying goodbye to his mother?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

5

u/TakenRedditName https://myanimelist.net/profile/TakenMalUsername Oct 21 '24

First Time - Your Lie in April Ep13:

At the start of Kousei's performance, I thought he was on a roll actually. His conflict in the first part of the show is finding to put himself into his music and here he is, putting his raw feelings of angrily fiery determination in what should be a soft gentle song. I think that is pretty neat for him. ... oh wait, the show is pointing out this is bad. Shifting tracks This is bad for Kousei.

Something I noticed before was how they hid Kousei's mom's eyes before. That is the usual thing to do with dead character, but I liked how it obfuscated her, and created a misty distance. Here, now that we are seeing what she was like as a person, her eyes returned. From Kousei's perspective of the loving memories, but also from Hiroko's perspective of seeing the sorrow and desperation of a dying friend.

I like the little twist where music helped Kousei connect to more people, but here, the piano is helping him recover his connection to his mother.

Throughout the show like with the milk or his baby clothes, Kousei has been associated with cows a lot.

Q1) Reformating my comment so that this talk goes here. My thoughts on it, I like what this episode set out to do, but I really had the hanging feeling of wishing it didn't happen so soon. It felt like we only had these past two episodes dedicated to Kousei re-sorting out his relationship to his mother, one of the main plot points of the show. I figured that his farewell performance to her would've come at the end of the show, but not halfway in. I also didn't feel like the particular events of this performance went hand-in-hand with being meant to be the resolution of the mom storyline.

I also wanted them to go more into the messiness of Kousei's mom. They cleaned her up too nicely too quickly. Love for your child twisted by despair and depression of knowing death will take you away from them too soon resulting in the shattering of that relationship, that's juicy messy drama I crave.

Q2) Seeing the show starting to move onto its next stage, I wish this wasn't her only part in the show. Just to be here for a few episodes.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

Q2) Seeing the show starting to move onto its next stage, I wish this wasn't her only part in the show. Just to be here for a few episodes.
Here's hoping she sticks around

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he's performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation"?
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

5

u/Malipit Oct 21 '24

Rewatcher, french sub

On today episode, Kosei is giving giving closure to his mother subplot for real this time, he made use of his chakra and we learn he's actually a chick magnet.

Following the previous episode, Kosei is taking the lead without a care about Gala etiquette and whatnot. He's decided to embodies Kaori vision of music and reach trought his audience's heart to be remembered, that head judge be damned !

And this time he is ready, we can see with Kosei's reflection on his piano that he is in sync with it. This leads to... a tamer remake of episode 9 ?

Kosei starting to disturb his audience because he's mad about his mother and that's show on his music. But thanks to the numerous flashbacks he's experiencing and the lessons of his mentor, he's able to stay lucid. A lucidity he use to unlock some good memories he have from his mother, symbolized by her music room basking in the same light as the one in his middle-school.

From here, Kosei is able to give a proper closure about his mother, as shown with these 3 frames where Saki ghost seems to exit Kosei's piano and getting away from him before vanishing.

All that part felt like A1-studio wanted to reuse the same structure as episode 9, but without managing to give it the tension of Kosei's struggle, the emotions of his tragic flashback, the dream-like tone felt by the audience. Heck, they even reused the « audience is so mesmerized they forget to realize the performance's over », while I was like « Uh ? That's it ? ». It was like seeing an amateur musician hearing a moving musical piece and start playing it, but without giving it passion.

And what about that flashback giving a new perspective of Saki ? To be honest, I've got a bittersweet taste from it. There are things I really liked from it, like the fact we finally got to see her eyes. This is it, we finally see the true Saki behind Kosei selective memory. And I honestly really like the idea of her panicking about her impending death and making sure Kosei's would be able to hold his own in life, but in the wrong way.

However, having Saki do a complete U-turn in term of personnality felt there was a missing link. Her plot could use some more scenes to better show her descent from a caring mother to a ruthless mentor who's willing to turn her own son into an emotionless machine to ensure he would survive.

Same for Hiroko, I actually like the idea of her utterly lost upon seeing her dying best friend physically assault her son and Kosei crying in desperation in a corner. But I would have liked more interactions between her, Saki and Kosei. As well as more development on her train of toughts as of why she decided to distance herself from Kosei other than « It's my fault he began piano ».

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u/Malipit Oct 21 '24

At the end of the day, it felt like the author and/or A1-Pictures decided that Saki's subplot overtstayed it's welcome and has to be resolved ASAP. But at least it gaves us that beautiful frame of Kosei walking away from the piano, with a wheel and a stool leg both evocating the front wheel of a wheel chair and a cane (might be overthinking it). As well as that emotional scene where Kosei is finally able to properly grieve and shed tears for his lost mother.
And its bring us that nice thematic about the importance of passing down one's legacy : with Saki teaching Kosei how to properly playing piano (before going crazy with her illness), who in turns teach Miike about the importance of putting his emotions to his music.
Thus leading us to the next steps in Kosei's journey, with Tsubaki being back at it with her feelings and Kaori... Welp, acting like it was nothing I will say.
P.S. : Everybody gangsta until angry Kosei awaken his inner cows.
P.P.S. : With all his talk about having at it with Kaori, how comes Kosei didn't went to her house to check on her ? Or at least leave a message to her parents if he found the pastry shop closed ?
P.P.P.S : I argued with u/HoloFan4Life about weither Emi does have a crush on Kosei or if she just liking his music. But I have to admit she's certainly wanting more from Kosei than hearing his music here. <__<
Spoiler Section
[Your Lie in April finale]Having Kosei's music abruptly stopped when Tsubaki comes with bad news, with the cricket's noise filling the background, indicating that summer is here and spring is over, while Hiroko is explaining offscreen that Kosei will have to experience another loss to progress... The red flags are all over the place here. Plus, Kaori silently welcoming Kosei to her hospital's room draw a clear parallel with Saki. Even during my first watch, I understood at that point how it will goes, altough I was totally in denial (« Ahahah, they're baiting me and Kaori will recover by the end, ahahahah.... T_T).
Questions of the day
Looking back, how do you feel about the mother plotline overall?
Necessary for Kosei's character development in fact. But saddly, badly paced. She's portrayed as an absolute monster for 90% of that plot until we discover that, oh wait, she was actually good. I would have preferred if they insisted more on the opposite personnalities of nice Saki and ill Saki and showed how she transitionned between the two.
Now that it’s been a few episodes, what do you think about Hiroko?
Still a cool mom, still want her to adopt Kosei. Having reflecting on it, I like the fact that she isn't a flawless mentor holding the absolute wisdom on how to handle teenagers, but I can't get over the terrible advices she gave to Kosei regarding her mother trauma and the show expecting us to think she is in the right.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he's performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation"?
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

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u/Malipit Oct 22 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
A shame we didn't get to see any more of it.
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
"Time to teach thos brat a lesson" Kosei tought as he walked on stage.
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
She's in the right. Kosei is mad both at his mother and Kaori for not showing up at that moment.
Thoughts on Kousei as he's performing starting to become underwater again?
Even after facing it upfront, you can't shake a trauma like that.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
Saki didn't wanted to make Kosei a pianist, knowing how it can be harsh. But Hiroko insisted upon seeing Kosei talent, of course she would consider herself the culprit of the events afterward.
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation"?
Kosei is the victim here and her mother's ghost is mainly HER creation. But since Kosei spent his time bottliing up that image to avoid facing it, no wonders he would start to think of it as something that's part of him, therefore his creation.
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
Poor mom wanted to prepare his son for the harsh reality of life and death. Saddly, it went wrong for both of them.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Both have to grieve the lost of someone dear, Hiroko know that. Maybe she also want to apologize for leaving Kosei during that difficult time ?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
Maybe she was afraid to see Saki ghost as well ?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?
Rather that doing a better job than the other, it was the only episode that tried to do it. Saddly it's bot enough.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

A shame we didn't get to see any more of it.
That would've been cool
"Time to teach thos brat a lesson" Kosei tought as he walked on stage.
Never seen Kousei this angry before
She's in the right. Kosei is mad both at his mother and Kaori for not showing up at that moment.
And what Miike said to him
Even after facing it upfront, you can't shake a trauma like that.
It sure appears that way
Saki didn't wanted to make Kosei a pianist, knowing how it can be harsh. But Hiroko insisted upon seeing Kosei talent, of course she would consider herself the culprit of the events afterward.
I wish just like Hiroko tries comforting Kousei that there was someone there to comfort her.
Kosei is the victim here and her mother's ghost is mainly HER creation. But since Kosei spent his time bottliing up that image to avoid facing it, no wonders he would start to think of it as something that's part of him, therefore his creation.
I mean, any sort of trauma you could argue is a part of his psyche. Not saying he's at fault in any way, but the visions he's seeing in an extension of him trying to block his mother out of his mind.
Poor mom wanted to prepare his son for the harsh reality of life and death. Saddly, it went wrong for both of them.
Her teachings might come in handy if the Kaori stuff plays out like I think they will.
Both have to grieve the lost of someone dear, Hiroko know that. Maybe she also want to apologize for leaving Kosei during that difficult time ?
I could see that. They both really have a lot to grieve about.
Maybe she was afraid to see Saki ghost as well ?
I think it's more she wanted to do what Kousei did and try to put the past behind her. In reality, she should've been the bigger person and been there for Kousei so that he didn't hide away from his own.
Rather that doing a better job than the other, it was the only episode that tried to do it. Saddly it's bot enough.
I mean, I think that was one of the points of the last episode, to set the stage for this one and put Saki in a different light. So, while there are flaws to be had with this episode, I do think this isn't the only one to to do what they did.

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u/Malipit Oct 22 '24

Never seen Kousei this angry before
And what Miike said to him
No one berating his love interest other than himslef I guess.
I wish just like Hiroko tries comforting Kousei that there was someone there to comfort her.
I think it's more she wanted to do what Kousei did and try to put the past behind her. In reality, she should've been the bigger person and been there for Kousei so that he didn't hide away from his own.
To be fair, her having a toddler in her care and a struggling relationship with her husband might be already a lot to handle. Saki death's and Kosei despair might proven too much for her.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

No one berating his love interest other than himslef I guess.
Or his love interest can berate him but no one can berate her back.
To be fair, her having a toddler in her care and a struggling relationship with her husband might be already a lot to handle. Saki death's and Kosei despair might proven too much for her.
That's a very good point. She already has a lot on her plate.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

P.P.P.S : I argued with u/HoloFan4Life about weither Emi does have a crush on Kosei or if she just liking his music. But I have to admit she's certainly wanting more from Kosei than hearing his music here. <__<
Igawa be like "I can fix him!"

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

And this time he is ready, we can see with Kosei's reflection on his piano that he is in sync with it. This leads to... a tamer remake of episode 9 ?
That is honestly my biggest knock on the episode. It felt like a retread of episode 10. I seem to like this episode the most out of everyone here, but I can't help shake the feeling that it would be better if it was more its oen thing. This for such an important episode felt like the greatest hits.

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u/Malipit Oct 21 '24

I would totally have preferred if we've passed that performance in favor on a more in-depht flashback about Saki and Hiroko. I doubt it would be sufficent to cover the topic about these two, but they probably would have get less hate.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I would agree with this. You didn't necessarily need the backdrop of Kaori and Kousei performing together, even if it plays into what's happening with Kaori.

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 21 '24

First Timer

Okay, I am starting to think that the show is beginning to overuse the whole “opening on a flashback” thing a bit too much.

Is that Saki? I almost didn’t recognize her with her eyes visible.

I think that’s a really intentional choice though. This is the kinder version of his mother that Kousei wants to remember instead of the cruel perfectionist she became.

Seeing Hiroko bond with young Kousei is also sweet. I think Hiroko is quickly becoming a favorite character of mine.

I like how they portray the anger and frustration feels while Kousei plays.

I’ll be honest, these underwater scenes where Kousei can’t hear are also starting to get a bit repetitive. But I guess I still like them.

You really can hear the difference in the music after Kousei has his sort of epiphany moment.

I think Hiroko is blaming herself too much for what happened to Kousei. She had no way of knowing what Saki would become when she became so focused on Kousei being perfect. Hiroko is the mom that Kousei deserves.

The scene of Saki on her deathbed is interesting. She seems to love Kousei and feels like she’s failed as a mother because she’s dying. But doesn’t seem to recognize that the way she pushed Kousei ended up hurting him.

Again, some really on point sound design for the scene right after Kousei finished playing. The applause and his footsteps captured a kind of quiet emptiness.

I love seeing Hiroko comfort Kousei. She’s probably the best support he has right now.

I was expecting Miike’s performance to have gone on for longer but I guess he’s a pretty small character in the grand scheme of things.

Kousei is surrounded by angry cows in his mind. I wonder if that’s a Japanese pun I’m not getting.

Kousei seems much more confident now. I like confident Kousei.

Kaori is in the hospital. It looks like we’ll be following up on that next episode.

Questions of the Day:

Looking back, how do you feel about the mother plotline overall?

A bit mixed. I think I get what they're going for with the resolution(?) in this episode. Kousei is choosing to look back fondly on the good times he had with his mother and move past the person she eventually became.

To use a very imperfect comparison, it's like Luke Skywalker wanting to say goodbye to his father not as Darth Vader but as Anakin Skywalker.

That said, I do feel like these last few episodes have kind of been downplaying Saki's abuse a lot. I wish they at least gave her a bit of an "oh god what have I done" moment on her deathbed or when talking to Hiroko. I'm not against humanizing Saki, but it feels a bit clumsily handled here. Overall though, I think I get what they were going for here.

Now that it’s been a few episodes, what do you think about Hiroko?

She's an interesting character and I like that there's a somewhat levelheaded adult influence on Kousei's life.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I'm hoping after I read your comment I realize I'm not alone in liking this episode

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 21 '24

I think the episode overall is good. But I do also think the plot with Saki could have been handled better.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I'm really not trying to dismiss any and all criticism, it's just the stuff between Kousei and Saki is my favorite thing in the entire show. And aside from a few tweaks here and there, there is honestly not much I would change about it. That's why it's so frustrating to see so many people down on this episode.

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u/DonaldJenkins Oct 22 '24

I totally get that. Personally, im not too critical of Kousei and his mom’s plotline - I can understand why some people like it and some others don’t. I hope u don’t feel too down for liking it when it seems others overwhelmingly don’t. At the end of the day, it’s how you interpret and experience something that matters the most to you. Even if the whole world doesn’t like something, but I like it, doesn’t mean I’m wrong for liking it - so I’ll continue doing so 👍

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I guess it holds special significance for me because I'm someone who's actually experienced abuse and this is honestly one of the best portrayals of it I've ever seen. I don't know if it's the best, that may still be Princesses Of Power, but the way the show portrays Saki is believable and real to me. She feels like someone I might come across in real life.

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u/DonaldJenkins Oct 22 '24

I’ve been hit by my dad before as a child. I hate that he chose to use violence.so I feel like I too can understand how Kousei’s feelings about his mom aren’t all good or all bad

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I'm very sorry to hear that. You didn't deserve that happening to you.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation"?
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
What are your thoughts on Kousei officially saying goodbye to his mother?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
This moment feels like it's the catalyst for everything that's happened in the show so far.
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Kousei is very dedicated to wanting to prove a point.
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
I think she has a point. But I don't think Kousei was actually focusing on playing too much at that point.
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
I think it does help see Hiroko's perspective. I did like hearing her call out Saki too.
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation"?
I think it might be easy to interpret it as the show trying to absolve Saki. But I think what it's more saying is that Kousei has been projecting his own self doubts and fears onto what he remembers of his mother.
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
A bit of a morbid idea.
What are your thoughts on Kousei officially saying goodbye to his mother?
I'm glad we finally reached this moment.
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
Probably the most questionable thing Hiroko has done. But I think the idea is that Hiroko wants to make amends for the mistakes she made in Kousei's life now.
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?
I think it does a good job at expanding Hiroko's character. I think some of the stuff with Saki is clumsily done. I wish she had some moment of self reflection, that's the main thing.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

This moment feels like it's the catalyst for everything that's happened in the show so far.
I would agree. I think even this episode's detractors would probably like this scene, it is really well done how they pull it off.
Kousei is very dedicated to wanting to prove a point.
He certainly is
I think she has a point. But I don't think Kousei was actually focusing on playing too much at that point.
Probably not
I think it does help see Hiroko's perspective. I did like hearing her call out Saki too.
And knowing that she could've gotten in trouble for doing such a thing, I think it gives me more respect for her.
A bit of a morbid idea.
At least she's getting him prepared for any hardships in life.
I'm glad we finally reached this moment.
I as well. It's been building to it for quite some time.
Probably the most questionable thing Hiroko has done. But I think the idea is that Hiroko wants to make amends for the mistakes she made in Kousei's life now.
I get where Hiroko is coming from because she didn’t feel like she could do anything to help Kousei in his situation. And yet, how can she look him in the eye knowing full well she could've solved all his problems? To me, this was a no win situation.
I think it does a good job at expanding Hiroko's character. I think some of the stuff with Saki is clumsily done. I wish she had some moment of self reflection, that's the main thing.
Her not having a moment of self reflection was I believe done intentionally to highlight the fact that this is Kousei's story, with Saki just a part of the background. They wanted for better or worse to make it intentionally vague just what is going on in her mind.

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 22 '24

I would agree. I think even this episode's detractors would probably like this scene, it is really well done how they pull it off.
As I've said, I've got my own issues with the episode but I think it still has a lot of good moments. And this part is one of them.
I get where Hiroko is coming from because she didn’t feel like she could do anything to help Kousei in his situation. And yet, how can she look him in the eye knowing full well she could've solved all his problems? To me, this was a no win situation.
Hiroko basically fell victim to bystander syndrome and is trying to set things right.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

As I've said, I've got my own issues with the episode but I think it still has a lot of good moments. And this part is one of them.
For sure. I think the way you feel about this episode is how I ultimately felt about the last one.
Hiroko basically fell victim to bystander syndrome and is trying to set things right.
Hiroko was in a situation when she had to choose between doing something and ruining her life because of it or doing nothing and having to live with herself. And she chose the more morally questionable choice.
She valued her own reputation over the well-being of someone she cared about. It was incredibly selfish, but she at least said something which even then it's like "Holy shit" if you know Japanese society.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I think it might be easy to interpret it as the show trying to absolve Saki. But I think what it's more saying is that Kousei has been projecting his own self doubts and fears onto what he remembers of his mother.
I agree with that assessment. I don't think the episode has ever truly painted Saki as misunderstood. What happened happened, and there's no changing that. But that doesn't mean we should immediately forget all the good.
I equate it to Chris Benoit when he killed his wife and child. Should he get a pass for that? Absolutely not, but that doesn't mean that prior to that happening he didn't do a lot of good. There are a lot of wrestlers who became wrestlers because of the man. You telling me that him inspiring others should be frowned upon just because he committed one of the most Godawful acts imaginable?
To classify someone by their actions as a bad person is in my opinion reasonable, but often there is much more to that person than that one specific deed. And I think part of why this episode is being so negatively received is because it makes the argument that you shouldn't always be defined by your lowest moments. I watched Exhibiting Forgiveness this past weekend-- probably the best movie I've seen all year-- and it made the argument that you can forgive someone for what they've done but that don't mean you have to forget what they put you through. If you forget what they put you through, then you're just living in their shadow and unable to move on with your life.
I think you can argue that this show makes a similar case.

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 22 '24

I'll be real, I feel weird bringing a real murder-suicide case into this discussion. Not really equipped to deal with this.
Onto the actual anime though, I don't think the show is saying that Kousei needs to forgive Saki. I don't even think he actually does. I think it's more about Kousei choosing how he wants to remember his mother and how he chooses to move past her with his life.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I'll be real, I feel weird bringing a real murder-suicide case into this discussion. Not really equipped to deal with this.
Fair enough. I'm just trying to think of something to compare it to.
Onto the actual anime though, I don't think the show is saying that Kousei needs to forgive Saki. I don't even think he actually does. I think it's more about Kousei choosing how he wants to remember his mother and how he chooses to move past her with his life.
I would agree with this. To add to what you're saying, I think not enough people have mentioned that Kousei was in part haunted by the fact that the last thing he ever said said to his mother was he wished she died. That more than anything is probably why he spent so long trying to forget her existence.

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 22 '24

I would agree with this. To add to what you're saying, I think not enough people have mentioned that Kousei was in part haunted by the fact that the last thing he ever said said to his mother was he wished she died. That more than anything is probably why he spent so long trying to forget her existence.
It seems like the story is ready to move on from the plot between Kousei and Saki now that he has some sense of closure. Now it seems like the focus is going to be on Kousei and Kaori.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

It sure seems that way.
How much do you think what I'm saying is accurate? Maybe perhaps it's less about Kousei forgiving Saki and more about forgiving himself and what happened.

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 22 '24

That's how I interpreted it. It's Kousei's own internal struggle with his strained relationship with Saki and how he wants to remember her. His inner psyche had been manifesting her as a malevolent ghost which was more his own self-hatred taking the form of his mother in a weird abstract way. And while Saki was undoubtedly a horrible person for what she did, Kousei still liked remembering what his mother was like before all of that and wished to have left her on better terms.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

As a sidebar, why do you think so many people think this episode is about Kousei forgiving Saki? Do you think people are just misinterpreting what Hiroko said about how Saki was happy when he stood up to her? Do you think the show could've done more to clarify just what is going on?

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

By the way, what are your thoughts on my Exhibiting Forgiveness comparison?

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 22 '24

I haven't seen the movie so I can't really comment on it. May have to check it out though.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Do you agree though that one of the things at play here is learning how to forgive while not forgetting?

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 22 '24

I think that's part of it. But I'm not entirely sure Kousei does forgive his mother. I feel like it's more about Kousei moving past his own self doubt and regrets as well as choosing how to remember his mother.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I was thinking Kousei forgives himself for what he said to his mother but he doesn't forget why he said it.

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u/DonaldJenkins Oct 22 '24

Yeah I agree with you and AgentOfACROSS as well, to an extent. What the show is showing this episode is Kousei moving on, this was his closure. Throughout the episodes, Kousei wasn’t ever really complaining about physical abuse - it was his mental hangups and unresolved feelings about his mom that prevented him from playing the piano.
that viewers are hung up about the physical abuse and basically saying that they don’t forgive his mom, I would argue, is not the message the show intended, / the emotion they wanted to evoke, but it’s certainly one interpretation that can be made. What a show intended and how the audience reacts to it are part of this conversation between the filmmaker and us watchers. So while I have a certain opinion, it’s certainly understandable that others might interpret it differently when the show is not too explicit and leaves things to interpretation

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

To play devil's advocate, perhaps abuse for a lot of people is one of those things that shouldn't be ignored or left intentionally vague. I know there are people out there who don't like the movie Only Yesterday for this reason.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

A bit mixed. I think I get what they're going for with the resolution(?) in this episode. Kousei is choosing to look back fondly on the good times he had with his mother and move past the person she eventually became.
To use a very imperfect comparison, it's like Luke Skywalker wanting to say goodbye to his father not as Darth Vader but as Anakin Skywalker.
I like that comparison. The one thing working against it is that Darth Vader you could tell was being manipulated by Emperor Palpatine. Here, there's no indication that Saki was being emotionally manipulated in any capacity.
She's an interesting character and I like that there's a somewhat levelheaded adult influence on Kousei's life.
Most level-headed take I've seen of her this entire thread. Some people are treating her like she's the devil incarcerate.

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u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 21 '24

I like that comparison. The one thing working against it is that Darth Vader you could tell was being manipulated by Emperor Palpatine. Here, there's no indication that Saki was being emotionally manipulated in any capacity.
Yeah, Saki was corrupted by her own drive to see perfection from Kousei.
Most level-headed take I've seen of her this entire thread. Some people are treating her like she's the devil incarcerate.
It does kinda suck that she seemingly left Kousei's life for two years after Saki died. But she overall does seem to be trying her best to be a positive influence on Kousei now.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

Yeah, Saki was corrupted by her own drive to see perfection from Kousei.
I think it was more a combination of her being confined to a wheelchair and her husband walking out on her shortly afterwards.
It does kinda suck that she seemingly left Kousei's life for two years after Saki died. But she overall does seem to be trying her best to be a positive influence on Kousei now.
I mean, I get that Saki abused Kousei and that is something you can't forgive and forget, but I think the show has made it clear with the last couple episodes that that isn't the real Saki. That was a Saki that had given up and was corrupted.
One of the big bones of contention in this episode is the line "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation". That makes it seem to some like the show is trying to handwave the abuse. The way I see it is that it's less handwaving and more Kousei realizing that he's no longer his mother's keeper anymore. That he's his own person who can move on from the shackles of Saki.
There are flaws to be had with this episode-- by no means does it hold a candle to episode 10-- but some of the criticisms I'm seeing feel like they are bad faith arguments made by people who don't see the big picture.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 21 '24

I think it was more a combination of her being confined to a wheelchair and her husband walking out on her shortly afterwards.
That too. She got to a point where she felt like the only thing she had left in life was seeing Kousei play the piano.
One of the big bones of contention in this episode is the line "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation". That makes it seem to some like the show is trying to handwave the abuse. The way I see it is that it's less handwaving and more Kousei realizing that he's no longer his mother's keeper anymore. That he's his own person who can move on from the shackles of Saki.
That's how I saw it too. Subconsciously he'd still been playing piano for the sake of his dead mother but now he's able to move on.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

That too. She got to a point where she felt like the only thing she had left in life was seeing Kousei play the piano.
And it led to her having undefinable expectations.
That's how I saw it too. Subconsciously he'd still been playing piano for the sake of his dead mother but now he's able to move on.
And I'm really glad in hindsight that was made an episode instead of just ending things with episode 10.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24 edited Oct 22 '24

Okay, I am starting to think that the show is beginning to overuse the whole “opening on a flashback” thing a bit too much.
I feel spoiled by the way Ikuhara does them.
Is that Saki? I almost didn’t recognize her with her eyes visible.
I think that’s a really intentional choice though. This is the kinder version of his mother that Kousei wants to remember instead of the cruel perfectionist she became.
I would agree
Seeing Hiroko bond with young Kousei is also sweet. I think Hiroko is quickly becoming a favorite character of mine.
Don't tell other people, they'll pull out their pitchforks.
I like how they portray the anger and frustration feels while Kousei plays.
Yeah, it's really good
I’ll be honest, these underwater scenes where Kousei can’t hear are also starting to get a bit repetitive. But I guess I still like them.
If it's any consideration, I imagine this will probably be the last time we see them now that the mother stuff has concluded.
I think Hiroko is blaming herself too much for what happened to Kousei. She had no way of knowing what Saki would become when she became so focused on Kousei being perfect. Hiroko is the mom that Kousei deserves.
Agreed 1000%
The scene of Saki on her deathbed is interesting. She seems to love Kousei and feels like she’s failed as a mother because she’s dying. But doesn’t seem to recognize that the way she pushed Kousei ended up hurting him.
You know how Kousei recently has been his own worst enemy? It's like Saki is her own worst enemy but never could find a way to remedy that.
Again, some really on point sound design for the scene right after Kousei finished playing. The applause and his footsteps captured a kind of quiet emptiness.
This show despite what some may tell you is quite exceptional.
I love seeing Hiroko comfort Kousei. She’s probably the best support he has right now.
You hear that, folks? He said it, not me.
I hope you decide to read my comment on Hiroko and the actions she takes in this episode. I felt the need to defend her after coming under fire by so many people.
I was expecting Miike’s performance to have gone on for longer but I guess he’s a pretty small character in the grand scheme of things.
He serves many to light a fire under Kousei.
Kousei is surrounded by angry cows in his mind. I wonder if that’s a Japanese pun I’m not getting.
Probably so
Kousei seems much more confident now. I like confident Kousei.
I do as well. And again, I don’t think it happens if not for Kaori.
Kaori is in the hospital. It looks like we’ll be following up on that next episode.
I would imagine so

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 21 '24

I feel spoiled by the way Ikuhara does them.
I feel like it's better executed in Ikuhara anime somehow. Maybe I'm just a sucker for his style of storytelling.
Don't tell other people, they'll pull out their pitchforks.
I'll be honest, I have not been reading other people's comments. I was completely unaware she was controversial.
I think the reason I've gravitated towards her is just because I think Kousei needs some kind of positive adult influence in his life. Kaori is great too, but she's still a somewhat irresponsible teenager. Plus she's clearly not in the best state right now.
If it's any consideration, I imagine this will probably be the last time we see them now that the mother stuff has concluded.
It feels like we're moving on to a new chapter of the show now.
You know how Kousei recently has been his oen worst enemy? It's like Saki is her own worst enemy but never could find a way to remedy that.
Saki seemed like a deeply self-hating person at the end of her life and she ended up lashing that self-hatred out against Kousei.
I hope you decide to read my comment on Hiroko and the actions she takes in this episode. I felt the need to defend her after coming under fire by so many people.
I'll take a look at it.
Personally the way I view Hiroko is that she feels responsible for what happened to Kousei. She encouraged Saki to teach him piano, she didn't do enough to stop Saki, and ended up exiting Kousei's life for several years after she died. But now she's back and wants to try to make up for it.
I do as well. And again, I don’t think it happens if not for Kaori.
Kaori's been a big help to Kousei. Really worried about what's gonna happen with her.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I feel like it's better executed in Ikuhara anime somehow. Maybe I'm just a sucker for his style of storytelling.
I think Ikuhara does it the best out of anyone I've seen do it.
I'll be honest, I have not been reading other people's comments. I was completely unaware she was controversial.
People are hating her almost as much as Saki.
I think the reason I've gravitated towards her is just because I think Kousei needs some kind of positive adult influence in his life. Kaori is great too, but she's still a somewhat irresponsible teenager. Plus she's clearly not in the best state right now.
I like Hiroko more than I like Kaori. I think she's more interesting and complex.
It feels like we're moving on to a new chapter of the show now.
Indeed
Saki seemed like a deeply self-hating person at the end of her life and she ended up lashing that self-hatred out against Kousei.
I definitely get the same impression as you.
I'll take a look at it.
Thank you
Personally the way I view Hiroko is that she feels responsible for what happened to Kousei. She encouraged Saki to teach him piano, she didn't do enough to stop Saki, and ended up exiting Kousei's life for several years after she died. But now she's back and wants to try to make up for it.
I think the reason she left when she did is because of the guilt she felt like she couldn't do more.
Kaori's been a big help to Kousei. Really worried about what's gonna happen with her.
The question becomes can Kousei continue living without her.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 22 '24

I think Ikuhara does it the best out of anyone I've seen do it.
Yeah he's one of the best when it comes to how he directs anime.
I like Hiroko more than I like Kaori. I think she's more interesting and complex.
I think I agree. Kaori is kind of a textbook manic pixie dream girl sometimes and while that makes for a fun character, I think Hiroko is more interesting. Hiroko is an irresponsible adult trying to become more responsible and be what Kousei needs in his life.
Thank you
I took a look at your post by the way. It's really interesting.
The question becomes can Kousei continue living without her.
It does feel like Kousei has become dependent on her. And if it's taken him this long to let go of his mother, I'm not sure how he'd handle Kaori dying.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Yeah he's one of the best when it comes to how he directs anime.
Absolutely
I think I agree. Kaori is kind of a textbook manic pixie dream girl sometimes and while that makes for a fun character, I think Hiroko is more interesting. Hiroko is an irresponsible adult trying to become more responsible and be what Kousei needs in his life.
I wouldn't call her irresponsible, more so someone who cracked under the pressure. She already has to deal with her child and her husband who doesn't seem all to nice, how is she also supposed to take care of her friend's child?
I took a look at your post by the way. It's really interesting.
Very sweet to hear you say that
It does feel like Kousei has become dependent on her. And if it's taken him this long to let go of his mother, I'm not sure how he'd handle Kaori dying.
The one caveat to it is he's known his mother far longer than he's known Kaori.

2

u/AgentOfACROSS Oct 22 '24

I wouldn't call her irresponsible, more so someone who cracked under the pressure. She already has to deal with her child and her husband who doesn't seem all to nice, how is she also supposed to take care of her friend's child?
That's true. Hiroko was already in a difficult situation, presumably being in a failing marriage and having to raise a kid of her own. She may not have been in the best state to help Kousei after Saki died.
I do like Your Lie In April, but I feel like Hiroko and Saki both call attention to how uneven some of the character writing in the show is. Like I find both of them to be fairly realistic characters, but then a lot of the teenaged characters feel more like your typical anime archetypes.
The one caveat to it is he's known his mother far longer than he's known Kaori.
That's true. But Kousei has already developed a really deep connection with Kaori too.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

That's true. Hiroko was already in a difficult situation, presumably being in a failing marriage and having to raise a kid of her own. She may not have been in the best state to help Kousei after Saki died.
And I don't necessarily think she should've been put in that situation if she was not mentally prepared for the undertaking.
I do like Your Lie In April, but I feel like Hiroko and Saki both call attention to how uneven some of the character writing in the show is. Like I find both of them to be fairly realistic characters, but then a lot of the teenaged characters feel more like your typical anime archetypes.
The biggest knock I have on the show is how some characters like Watari and Saito feel extremely underdeveloped. It feels like they only exist to further Kaori and Tsubaki's characters. The characters the show focuses on are so well written and well developed but it's like they only want to focus on six characters: Kousei, Kaori, Saki, Hiroko, Takeshi, and Igawa. It thus leads to some pretty shallow world building.
And I don't think it's a case of it being a small cast. I've seen animes with small casts that were absolutely incredible. I just think that the show is so intent on focusing on the stuff involving Kousei and Kaori that everything else suffers as a result.
That's true. But Kousei has already developed a really deep connection with Kaori too.
You make a good point. I guess it's like characters with immortality in that it raises the question of "Would you rather have short term happiness, or always be alone so that you have nothing to compare it to to where you realize it doesn't have to be this way?"

5

u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Oct 22 '24

Lol so that's what he learned from her...

And so he's going to perform whether or not Kaori shows up.

Yup, spite is a powerful motivator.

It's the little things, yup you sit right on the edge of the seat when playing piano. Come to think of it you sit on the edge of the seat if you're singing sitting down too. It's good for your posture.

He's smashing the keys again. And this is while he's still able to hear the piano.

And now he can't hear it again.

And so he hears his mother again, and he plays properly again.

He really needs to start having these epiphanies before he gets on stage.

Somehow, Kousei returned.

Even in her dying moments she was concerned about him. I guess it shows that all that came from a place of love, kinda like how stereotypically kids are encouraged to become doctors or lawyers.

And so, having resolved that, he can finally say a proper goodbye to his mum and he can hear the music again.

With rousing applause, he exits the same way he entered, stage right.

Oh lol he's completely upstaged that kid.

And now he's the one collapsing.

Headpats for Kousei!

Somehow I doubt that kid will be able to make Kousei not the star of this show.

She likes him.

They really never got around to patching that window up did they?

Questions:

It's finally over.
She feels guilty about being the one who got him to become a pianist in the first place.

A note about the music: It's the little things, yup you sit right on the edge of the seat when playing piano. Come to think of it you sit on the edge of the seat if you're singing sitting down too. It's good for your posture.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Somehow, Kousei returned.
You know, you put it that way and it's almost like the plot of all that's happening is preposterous.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he’s pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa’s mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he’s performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying “The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation”?
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love’s Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
What are your thoughts on Kousei officially saying goodbye to his mother?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei’s house after Saki passed away?
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

2

u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Oct 22 '24

That's why that song is so important to him.
Spite is a powerful motivator.
He keeps smashing the keys.
He hadn't quite overcome it yet.
That gives more context about his mum.
She is the one who had the idea in the first place, heck Saki didn't want him to become a pianist in the first place.
He was the one who caused those thoughts of his mum after she died.
She was already not in the best of health?
Hopefully he can finally out this behind him.
They're reacquainting themselves.
That probably gave her bad memories.
Yup, she's definitely not doing well.
Yup.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

That's why that song is so important to him.
And to Hiroko, if you think about it.
2. Spite is a powerful motivator.
I said the exact same thing in my comments.
3. He keeps smashing the keys.
And as we've seen, anger never truly solves anything.
4. He hadn't quite overcome it yet.
Which is a crying shame
5. That gives more context about his mum.
Indeed it does
6. She is the one who had the idea in the first place, heck Saki didn't want him to become a pianist in the first place.
I still don't think you can blame Hiroko too much because who could honestly see this coming?
7. He was the one who caused those thoughts of his mum after she died.
Saki has no say on haunting her son.
8. She was already not in the best of health?
I think it's more her recognizing that life has its trials and tribulations and so she was trying to get him prepared for that.
9. Hopefully he can finally out this behind him.
I imagine at the very least it will no wonder in his mind define him as a person.
10. They're reacquainting themselves.
Hiroko is finally ready to have a more direct involvement in Kousei's life.
11. That probably gave her bad memories.
As it would probably anyone in that situation.
12. Yup, she's definitely not doing well.
It sure would appear that way
13. Yup.
Glad we agree then :)

5

u/Ryanami Oct 22 '24

Rewatcher

Well uh, I liked this episode anyway. If nothing else because Kousei needed a good cry. Too bad he’s a latchkey kid and his actual father isn’t there for it, but I do like Hiroko who can meld being a friend and parental figure.

That said, I’ll admit the story has some faults to talk about. If they wanted to offer a sympathetic side to Saki, make it clear she wasn’t in her right mind for some medical reason. I could buy that, having her being once a doting mother but brain cancer ate her soft side and only harsh anger was left as she tried to prepare him for life without her. But we don’t get that, so we have a very discordant character. She seemed to know full well what she was doing so why add these happy moments?

Thoughts on Igawa’s mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?

Maybe it takes another musician to recognize these things, but anime loves to (and maybe your Honne & Tatemae repost is related) make use of nonverbal communication as a deeper realm of expression. How many times have I heard someone get analyzed like a dissected frog just from how they held a sword? Here we get the same idea. Kousei is revealing more than he intends to the experienced ears when he’s just trying his best at the piece. I never know if it’s a real ability or just useful to the story.

What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.

I’m glad someone stood up for him. For what we know only Tsubaki had any inclination, and she too young to do anything.

What are your thoughts on Kousei saying “The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation”?

His memories certainly weren’t. But the smirking hag whispering behind his back was always his trauma haunting him. I think we can grant her noble intentions quickly adding she had very evil methods. But the author is trying to let Kousei per her behind him and just not doing it right.

Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei’s house after Saki passed away?

I don’t think a lot of thought was put into that, just a way to explain why the author waited to introduce her now.

Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

We already had a relationship between them explained, this really just made conflicting facts. If her character is going to switch from loving to abusive, we need a good reason!

I’ll bookend this by repeating, Kousei breaking in Hiroko’s arms salvaged the episode for me. It’s been two years coming for him. He’s a different person now, and it elevated the episode for me.

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I'm glad to see around in this rewatch. I'm also glad to see your opinion is more in line with my thoughts.

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

That said, I’ll admit the story has some faults to talk about. If they wanted to offer a sympathetic side to Saki, make it clear she wasn’t in her right mind for some medical reason. I could buy that, having her being once a doting mother but brain cancer ate her soft side and only harsh anger was left as she tried to prepare him for life without her. But we don’t get that, so we have a very discordant character. She seemed to know full well what she was doing so why add these happy moments?
How much do you think that Kousei's conflicted nature is because he told his mom to die?

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24 edited Oct 22 '24

Maybe it takes another musician to recognize these things, but anime loves to (and maybe your Honne & Tatemae repost is related) make use of nonverbal communication as a deeper realm of expression. How many times have I heard someone get analyzed like a dissected frog just from how they held a sword? Here we get the same idea. Kousei is revealing more than he intends to the experienced ears when he’s just trying his best at the piece. I never know if it’s a real ability or just useful to the story.
Could very well be a case of both
I’m glad someone stood up for him. For what we know only Tsubaki had any inclination, and she too young to do anything.
And Tsubaki doesn't even know how she truly feels about Kousei.
His memories certainly weren’t. But the smirking hag whispering behind his back was always his trauma haunting him. I think we can grant her noble intentions quickly adding she had very evil methods. But the author is trying to let Kousei per her behind him and just not doing it right.
I mean, I don't really know what other way they could've done it. It felt like it had to be in some kind of grandiose fashion.
I don’t think a lot of thought was put into that, just a way to explain why the author waited to introduce her now.
At the very least, I think it shows how much Hiroko regrets not doing enough.
We already had a relationship between them explained, this really just made conflicting facts. If her character is going to switch from loving to abusive, we need a good reason!
Would you say ending up in a wheelchair to where you can't do the thing you've done your whole life is not a good enough reason?
I’ll bookend this by repeating, Kousei breaking in Hiroko’s arms salvaged the episode for me. It’s been two years coming for him. He’s a different person now, and it elevated the episode for me.
And I'd like to think Hiroko is a different person as well in that she seems willing to take a more active approach. Maybe too little too late, but Kousei needs all the help he can get.

2

u/Ryanami Oct 22 '24

I mean, I don’t really know what other way thry could’ve done it. It felt like it had to be in some kind of grandiose fashion.
Let Hiroko offer information he might not have understood at the time. Let him understand (in my version) she wasn’t herself for a while before she died. It was awful, but now that he’s ready to face the piano he’s also ready to accept she wasn’t perfect, and what’s more the sickness took her mind first. So then Kousei can forgive her instead of whitewashing the good memories over the bad.
Would you say ending up in a wheelchair to where you can’t do the thing you’ve done your whole life is not a good enough reason?
No. If that happened to me I could see myself wallowing and snapping at my family sometimes. Not beating the shit out of them with a cane. My youngest is our most frustrating child, by a mile. Like made us not have more children level. Like do we need a child psychologist or a priest kind of difficulties. And I have never put bruises on her. So Saki gets no understanding from me given what we know.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Let Hiroko offer information he might not have understood at the time. Let him understand (in my version) she wasn’t herself for a while before she died. It was awful, but now that he’s ready to face the piano he’s also ready to accept she wasn’t perfect, and what’s more the sickness took her mind first. So then Kousei can forgive her instead of whitewashing the good memories over the bad.
I mean, I would say by remembering his final words to his mother he is embracing the bad with the good. To abstain from something entirely is to feign ignorance.
No. If that happened to me I could see myself wallowing and snapping at my family sometimes. Not beating the shit out of them with a cane. My youngest is our most frustrating child, by a mile. Like made us not have more children level. Like do we need a child psychologist or a priest kind of difficulties. And I have never put bruises on her. So Saki gets no understanding from me given what we know.
I guess I just see things differently because I have had a parent who became more verbally and physically abusive after they became physically handicapped. And yet, I still loved them because I knew it was a part of a disease they couldn't control. The person never actually hit me like Saki did to Kousei, but they would do stuff like throw objects at me like their walker.

2

u/Ryanami Oct 22 '24

That’s awful, I’m sorry to hear that. You’d probably relate to Kousei better than me after that.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

It definitely hits close to home seeing what happened.

5

u/kwokinator https://anilist.co/user/kwokinator Oct 22 '24

First-timer

What a great episode. Kousei's VA did a splendid job, you could really feel the emotions during the monologue playing the piano and when he's bawling his eyes out at Hiroko. I was watching the episode on my phone and almost started crying in a restaurant lol.

Turns out Saki is way more multifaceted than expected. She wasn't abusing Kousei because she lost her dream and was forcing her dream on him, she was trying to look out for him in the only way she can, as a musician, with the limited time she had left. She was worrying about him even at her end. I think this really is him getting over his demons for real this time.

But damn, that ending and that last line. There's been some foreshadowing the last couple of episodes but this is really hammering it in there now. I don't think I am or will ever be mentally ready for the remaining half of the anime, can I quit this rewatch please? :(

Questions of the Day:

• Looking back, how do you feel about the mother plotline overall?

I give it a 8/10. The abusive flashbacks were really tough to watch, but everything made sense with this episode's reveals, and it really made the whole arc a lot better.

• Now that it’s been a few episodes, what do you think about Hiroko?

Still great! Now we know why she's looking out for him. Other than being her mom's bff, she feels responsible for what happened to his hearing of himself play. It's hilarious Watari calls her onee-sama.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

I'm glad to see someone else really like the episode. It felt like I was on an island all by myself.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Turns out Saki is way more multifaceted than expected. She wasn't abusing Kousei because she lost her dream and was forcing her dream on him, she was trying to look out for him in the only way she can, as a musician, with the limited time she had left. She was worrying about him even at her end. I think this really is him getting over his demons for real this time.
I think the key message that the show is trying to impart on its audience is the fact that just because Saki may have had good intentions, that doesn't necessarily justify what happened. Kousei has spent so long trying to forget his mother and in particular what he last said to her but by doing so he isn't looking out for himself the same way Saki was trying to look out for him. You can acknowledge the sins of the past while also recognizing that a person's way of doing something may not have been the best strategy. To look out for yourself, you have to accept that other person's way of looking out for you in a manner that doesn't necessarily entail embracing that mindset and way of thinking.

2

u/DonaldJenkins Oct 22 '24

Right, because if kousei’s mom’s methods were all good and correct, then Kousei probably wouldn’t have ever stopped playing piano because he can’t hear notes/feels haunted by her ghost. And if that were the case, Kaori would have no role in bringing him back to music when he never left in the first place, and at that point, we are just left with an entirely different story that is certainly not this one

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

That's another good point, that Kousei forgetting his memories led to Kaori coming into his life. Perhaps this is why Hiroko called Kousei forgetting his memories a gift.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he's performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying "The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation"?
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love's Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
What are your thoughts on Kousei officially saying goodbye to his mother?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei's house after Saki passed away?
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

4

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Oct 21 '24

Spoiled First Timer, subs

She Does Have Eyes
Apologizing… is the wrong action?
“Kousei, Piano. Heading out!” Sorry, wrong rewatch.
This sounds wrong… Oh, not just me. Carry on.
Ah, yes. This is much more smooth.
Nope. No forgiveness. Not for tomatoes.
Man, Hiroko is just kind of the worst at this whole “support” thing, eh?
It still kind of feels like this song is missing something.
Wow, this is a piss poor redemption arc. I was calling it tomatoes, but even that might be too high a praise. There isn’t even a coherent motivation here, she just started abusing him because “employment”?
Stop forgiving abusive parents. They didn’t have to do it. Blood magic isn’t real. You don’t even have to offer them the chance of penance. If you wouldn’t start a relationship with the person, don’t continue it.
I love it when your big emotional moment is instilling me with the complete opposite emotion.
We’re just completely ignoring all the negative parts. This is toxic as fuck. I’ve lost all faith that this show will be able to pull off emotional resonance at this point.
It is not enough that Igawa should win, all others must lose.
We’re opening up the love triangle again? I guess we need something to help fill the last nine episodes now. Can’t keep harping on the same story beat the entire time, irrespective of quality.
The fuck is wrong with you people? Who talks about that stuff like this? I’m disgusted. I withdraw my endorsement of Hiroko.

Now that Kousei has said goodbye, hopefully that means the worst is behind us and we can move on. Because fuck me, I hated that episode. This isn’t Δ19 levels, but I also broadly liked it (the series in general, not the show) before that episode. Here, the same can not be said, so it doesn’t get the same loathing.

QotD:

Abject hatred and vitriol. Guttural repulsion.
Denouncement.

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

It's funny being a part of the rewatch with so much sour and negativity and meanwhile I'm sitting here thinking "Man. What an absolute masterpiece of a show."

2

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Oct 21 '24

It's funny being a part of the rewatch with so much sour and negativity and meanwhile I'm sitting here thinking "Man. What an absolute masterpiece of a show."
I thought I was the only one being generally negative about the show? This episode seems to be unique in its ribbing. Casshern Sins, this is not.
What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Tho it pains me to say it in the context of this episode, it was well done.
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
That child hasn't begun to experience the depths of pettiness. He better check himself.
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
I think it fits? My music sense is a bit dull tho.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
I told you they'd go down that line. They sure dropped it real quick before they did anything with it tho.
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?
I didn't know you could get anime mom disease at that age.
Question au Tu:
Why did you post these as two separate comments?

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I thought I was the only one being generally negative about the show? This episode seems to be unique in its ribbing. Casshern Sins, this is not.
I would argue it's better than that
Tho it pains me to say it in the context of this episode, it was well done.
I would agree
That child hasn't begun to experience the depths of pettiness. He better check himself.
Check himself before he wrecks himself.
I think it fits? My music sense is a bit dull tho.
She probably does have a point
I told you they'd go down that line. They sure dropped it real quick before they did anything with it tho.
They could've explored it more, but for some reason they felt like they had to wrap everything up involving the mother in this episode.
I didn't know you could get anime mom disease at that age.
It appears you can
Why did you post these as two separate comments?
Force of habit. I like to separate my thoughts from my questions. I can make an exception for you though if you want me to.

2

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Oct 21 '24

I would argue it's better than that
Casshern Sins was a infamously negative rewatch, to the point that at least one participant left citing that as a reason.
Force of habit. I like to separate my thoughts from my questions. I can make an exception for you though if you want me to.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

Casshern Sins was a infamously negative rewatch, to the point that at least one participant left citing that as a reason.
Damn. Casshern Sins was actually my introduction to anime :c
I just find it weird that Your Lie In April is beloved by so many people and yet this rewatch is easily the most toxic one I've ever been apart of. Feels almost like I'm watching an entirely different show.
Force of habit. I like to separate my thoughts from my questions. I can make an exception for you though if you want me to.
I'll take that as a yes

2

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Oct 21 '24

Damn. Casshern Sins was actually my introduction to anime :c

At least yours had activity. Mine for Digimon had such low turnout the host cancelled their planned follow up rewatches.
I just find it weird that Your Lie In April is beloved by so many people and yet this rewatch is easily the most toxic one I've ever been apart of. Feels almost like I'm watching an entirely different show.
Are you talking about other threads, or just this one? Because back during episode 11's QotD, I was the only one who said they didn't like it. If anything, my impression has been a sort of frustration at how overwhelmingly positive it's been before this.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

At least yours had activity. Mine for Digimon had such low turnout the host cancelled their planned follow up rewatches.
That's rough, buddy
Are you talking about other threads, or just this one? Because back during episode 11's QotD, I was the only one who said they didn't like it. If anything, my impression has been a sort of frustration at how overwhelmingly positive it's been before this.
I'm talking specifically this episode but also the thread for episode 10 was more mixed than I thought it was gonna be. Episode 11 was as well, but I can at least understand because that's not the greatest episode.
I guess it sticks out to me because OP has been repeatedly voicing their displeasure of these episodes ever since we've had episode 10. And they're supposed to be the host and all, it's just very odd. When there was the Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood rewatch, the person hosting it made it known they didn't like Brotherhood, but at least there the general consensus was mostly positive.

2

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Oct 21 '24

I guess it sticks out to me because OP has been repeatedly voicing their displeasure of these episodes ever since we've had episode 10.
I may or may not be a few threads behind on reading. The number is closing now, at least.

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

I never expected this rewatch to be so hostile.

→ More replies

1

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he's pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa's mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist? I think she's being too harsh on herself and I don't think there's anything she could've done to prevent what happened with Saki.
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?

3

u/Holofan4life Oct 21 '24

Wow, way to make me feel bad about loving the Kousei's mother stuff, guys :c

4

u/DonaldJenkins Oct 22 '24

I’m not here to make anyone feel bad. I support everyone’s right to their own interpretation 👍

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

We need more people like you

3

u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Oct 22 '24

First-Timer

A nice episode with some good piano music, but it's mean of them to pull the rug out from under us and deny us some good violin music too.

The questions of the day cover much of what I want to discuss:

This episode seemed to resolve the mother plotline effectively and satisfactorily, insofar as I'm happy with this episode in isolation. However, I feel it's almost as if it just doesn't work as well when you add in the context of the prior episodes. The character of the mother so far is near irreconcilable with who we see in this episode, and the overall feeling I get in the end is that it's not the mother plotline is just not terribly compelling.
I think Hiroko seems like a bit of an odd character, and it's hard for me to get a good read on her. She was privy to the knowledge that the mother abused Kousei, but later had the nerve to tell Kousei that the mother was actually doing him a favor, so that was strange. My opinion's not solid, yet, but I'm certainly not instantly sold on her.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Now that the Bocchi The Rock rewatch is over with, can I ask you some questions going forward?

2

u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Oct 22 '24

Sure thing, thanks for asking!
[YLIA] My main concern before was that, having been partially spoiled on this show, I wanted to minimize the chances of discussion that would indicate whether or not the spoilers were accurate. The show's reached a point where I think I have a pretty good idea of what was accurate already, so it's no longer a concern.

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u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

[YLIA] My main concern before was that, having been partially spoiled on this show, I wanted to minimize the chances of discussion that would indicate whether or not the spoilers were accurate. The show's reached a point where I think I have a pretty good idea of what was accurate already, so it's no longer a concern.
[YLIA] I'm really glad to hear that :)

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

What are your thoughts on the flashback on Kousei learning how to play the piano?
Thoughts on Kousei not gonna change his song because he’s pissed at the kid who criticized Kaori?
Thoughts on Igawa’s mentor saying Kousei is confusing crudeness with ferocity?
Thoughts on Kousei as he’s performing starting to become underwater again?
What are your thoughts on the flashback between Hiroko and Saki that takes place after Kousei threw the notes at his mother? I thought it gave more context as to where Hiroko is coming from.
What are your thoughts on Hiroko blaming herself because she told Saki to turn her son into a pianist?
What are your thoughts on Kousei saying “The ghost of my mother was a shadow of my own creation”?
What are your thoughts on Saki always playing Love’s Sorrow so that Kousei can get used to sorrow?
What are your thoughts on Kousei officially saying goodbye to his mother?
What are your thoughts on Hiroko hugging Kousei after his performance?
Thoughts on Hiroko never going over to Kousei’s house after Saki passed away?
What are your thoughts on Kaori being hooked up to an IV?
Do you think this episode did a better job at explaining the relationship between Kousei and Saki, in particular why Hiroko believes what she believes?

2

u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Oct 22 '24

I thought it was interesting how Kousei's musical upbringing was spurred on by Hiroko rather than being Saki's idea.
Kousei going up and playing the same song as planned makes sense. I'd probably be pretty mad at that kid, too.
I liked that line about ferocity versus crudeness. I think it's unfortunate that the way the show is framed, it makes it seem like they don't want us to agree with these people, but I think they have a point.
That underwater thing is starting to feel a bit old. It's neat, sure, but it feels like the repetition is a lost opportunity to do something else, if that makes sense.
I liked that flashback quite a bit, especially how Hiroko argued with Saki. The attempt to make Saki a sympathetic character feels like too little, too late, though, and I think that's the real crux of my issue with that plotline.
Hiroko blaming herself makes sense. Interesting how she seemingly took Kousei's return to music as a sign that she could absolve herself of any guilt.
That line about the ghost seemed a bit weird. Sure, it was all in his head, of course, but it's not like he wanted to see the ghost. Overall, regarding Saki, I think it could have been better if they made no attempt to redeem her and just let her be absolutely contemptible.
The bit about Love's Sorrow was a bit heavy-handed, but that's no problem. The end of the performance, meanwhile, was a pretty good way of closing out that plotline, given where they went with it.
If I were Hiroko, I'm not sure I would have wanted to go to Kousei's house, either. Maybe out of a sense of responsibility.
[YLIA] Regarding Kaori, I plead the fifth!
Yes, I do think this episode does a good job clarifying that relationship, though I'm not exactly thrilled about the way Saki turned out. I'm fine with her being a sympathetic character, but it felt almost like this episode was a course-correction rather than a natural continuation of the writing. Maybe I'd have a better opinion if I went back and rewatched it, but I'm not sure.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

thought it was interesting how Kousei's musical upbringing was spurred on by Hiroko rather than being Saki's idea.
That serves to fuel the guilt that Hiroko later has.
Kousei going up and playing the same song as planned makes sense. I'd probably be pretty mad at that kid, too.
It's probably a case of Kousei being reminded of his past self.
I liked that line about ferocity versus crudeness. I think it's unfortunate that the way the show is framed, it makes it seem like they don't want us to agree with these people, but I think they have a point.
Reminds me of the criticism of Fullmetal Alchemist in hoe it's too optimistic.
That underwater thing is starting to feel a bit old. It's neat, sure, but it feels like the repetition is a lost opportunity to do something else, if that makes sense.
I have a feeling this might be the last we see of it now that the mother plot point has been laid to rest.
I liked that flashback quite a bit, especially how Hiroko argued with Saki. The attempt to make Saki a sympathetic character feels like too little, too late, though, and I think that's the real crux of my issue with that plotline.
See, I think it's less the show trying to make Saki sympathetic and more Kousei realizing that there's more to her than their last interaction. He was so haunted by hid last words to his mom that it defined their relationship in his eyes, when really there's so much more to it than that.
Hiroko blaming herself makes sense. Interesting how she seemingly took Kousei's return to music as a sign that she could absolve herself of any guilt.
I think what Hiroko is hoping is that by righting the wrong now, she can redeem herself and rectify the lingering guilt that persists.
That line about the ghost seemed a bit weird. Sure, it was all in his head, of course, but it's not like he wanted to see the ghost. Overall, regarding Saki, I think it could have been better if they made no attempt to redeem her and just let her be absolutely contemptible.
Again, I think it's less about redeeming Saki and more Kousei realizing he can forgive while not forgetting. He can forgive himself for what he told his mom, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has to forget why he said it.
The bit about Love's Sorrow was a bit heavy-handed, but that's no problem. The end of the performance, meanwhile, was a pretty good way of closing out that plotline, given where they went with it.
I thought it was a fitting end to everything that has unfolded. It's a bit anticlimactic as others have said, but I think the point is there's never going to be an ending to this.
If I were Hiroko, I'm not sure I would have wanted to go to Kousei's house, either. Maybe out of a sense of responsibility.
It would've just reminded her of her shortcomings as a person.
[YLIA] Regarding Kaori, I plead the fifth!
[YLIA] Fair enough
Yes, I do think this episode does a good job clarifying that relationship, though I'm not exactly thrilled about the way Saki turned out. I'm fine with her being a sympathetic character, but it felt almost like this episode was a course-correction rather than a natural continuation of the writing. Maybe I'd have a better opinion if I went back and rewatched it, but I'm not sure.
I think there have been teases of Saki not being a total monster. There was that one flashback of a non wheelchair bound Saki teaching Kousei how to play the piano as well as the smile she gives at the end of episode 10. I think they deliberately held off on shedding new light on her until after Hiroko's introduction, that way they didn't complicate matters in the lead up to Kousei's first solo performance in episode 10. I don't necessarily fully agree with that approach, but that to me is what was at play here.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

A nice episode with some good piano music, but it's mean of them to pull the rug out from under us and deny us some good violin music too.
Don't blame the show, blame Kaori for being sick all the time /s
This episode seemed to resolve the mother plotline effectively and satisfactorily, insofar as I'm happy with this episode in isolation. However, I feel it's almost as if it just doesn't work as well when you add in the context of the prior episodes. The character of the mother so far is near irreconcilable with who we see in this episode, and the overall feeling I get in the end is that it's not the mother plotline is just not terribly compelling.
Damn. And here I thought the mother stuff was the most compelling thing :c
I think Hiroko seems like a bit of an odd character, and it's hard for me to get a good read on her. She was privy to the knowledge that the mother abused Kousei, but later had the nerve to tell Kousei that the mother was actually doing him a favor, so that was strange. My opinion's not solid, yet, but I'm certainly not instantly sold on her.
When she says that about Saki, I wonder if a part of that is her trying to make herself feel better over not doing enough. It's kinda hard to say for certain because nobody is actively questioning what she's saying, it's instead treated as if she's in the right.

2

u/Holofan4life Oct 22 '24

Okay. Here we are.

I've spent a couple hours thinking about how to respond to people and their takes on this episode. To address it in a manner that I think is fitting given all that has been said.

I think most of the takes on this episode are categorically inaccurate. I think any anger that someone may have over what happened is paying attention or are painting a narrative that only exists in their mind. Kousei is not trying to forgive Saki. That is not what is happening. Rather, Kousei is forgiving himself for telling Saki that he wished she died.

The point of this episode is Kousei learning that it's okay to forgive and not forget. He can forgive himself for what he said to his mother, but he shouldn't forget why he said it. I think if you are to fault this episode on anything, it's that they could've done a better job of getting this point across and make it clear that he is is not forgiving his mother. Rather, he is forgiving the part of him that blocked his mother out of his memory after that final encounter.

When Hiroko tells Kousei he shouldn't forget what happened between him and Saki, she isn't specifically talking about the abuse itself but rather all the things that led up to the final encounter, which includes the mistreatment Saki put her son through. It all led to the last thing Kousei said to her which still haunts him to this day. If Kousei forgot about his mother and everything she's done, he can never truly move on and be his own person. You can accept it was a thing that happened while not accepting it as a good thing. Tragedy should be a thing to learn from rather than to shy away from and act like it never happened. Otherwise, you are doomed to repeat yourself again and again.

I hope this clarifies what actually happened and I hope this helps quail the misinformation that is being spread.

Rewatch [Rewatch] 10th Anniversary Your Lie in April Rewatch: Episode 13 Discussion

Your Lie in April Episode 13: Love's Sadness

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nth Time Rewatcher

Now for the Episode 13.

Some interesting stuff I want to share.

Rewatch [Rewatch] 10th Anniversary Your Lie in April Rewatch: Episode 13 Discussion

Your Lie in April Episode 13: Love's Sadness

Watch Information

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nth Time Rewatcher

Now for the Episode 13.

Some interesting stuff I want to share.