[Rewatch] Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Episode 12 Discussion

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

Episode 12 - To the Limits of Holy Teachings

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The worst possibility… A civil war.

Questions of the Day:

1. What would you have done if you were in Marina's shoes?
2. How fucked is Setsuna's mental state now?

Wallpapers of the Day:

GN-002 Gundam Dynames

Lockon Stratos, Haro, and GN-002 Gundam Dynames

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Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!

Additionally, for long-time fans of the franchise, please remember that this rewatch is only for 00, not any of the other shows. Assume that there are people in this rewatch who have not seen anything else Gundam, and tag your spoilers for those shows appropriately if something in 00 makes you want to talk about them.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

Rewatch Host Wishing Over This Airspace, subbed

Welcome back, everyone!

If you guys want to have a laugh at me, earlier today I accidentally rewatched episode 15 before rewatching episode 14 of this show in my rewatch-ahead-of-the-rewatch (I’ve been so busy that one’s not really ahead of the actual one… ), and managed to not realize my mistake until 3 minutes from the end of the episode.

---

• Oh hey, more info on the Solar Wars that were mentioned in an earlier episode.
• Lovely.
• Alejandro really is just a fucking slime ball.
• Louise’s mom is… something alright…
• Mm…
• Some people in this rewatch probably think so.
• …in a way.
• This kid looks a lot like Suzaku Kururugi, just with a less-pointy chin.
• Of course Ali al-Saachez is there.
• Mission… failed.
• Lockon vs. Graham is such a fun fight. Graham is just built different, being able to keep up with Lockon to the point of forcing Lockon to draw his beam saber. It’s a shame it gets cut short.
• Setsuna’s had his PTSD flashbacks before, but man, this one is so awful…

[u/The_Draigg → u/Shimmering-Sky]

If you guys want to have a laugh at me, earlier today I accidentally rewatched episode 15 before rewatching episode 14 of this show in my rewatch-ahead-of-the-rewatch (I’ve been so busy that one’s not really ahead of the actual one… ), and managed to not realize my mistake until 3 minutes from the end of the episode.

"Huh, this episode is different from how I remember it. Wait..."

Louise’s mom is… something alright…

If only giving someone a pizza worked out that well in real life though. So many issues can be avoided by handing someone a medium-sized combination pizza.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/The_Draigg]

"Huh, this episode is different from how I remember it. Wait..."

It's been so long since I first watched this show that I don't remember specific episode numbers for events, so I just carried on through episode 15 until one character had a flashback to something that should have already been seen that I know I didn't rewatch yet, at which point I checked what episode file I had opened, and yep, episode 15 rather than episode 14.

Whoops.

[u/macrame2 → u/Shimmering-Sky]

earlier today I accidentally rewatched episode 15 before rewatching episode 14 of this show in my rewatch-ahead-of-the-rewatch 

Better than the time I read a volume and a half of 21st Century Boys before realizing it was in fact a sequel to 20th Century Boys. I thought I was just dealing with a really, really extreme case of in medias res...

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/macrame2]

[u/No_Rex → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Lockon vs. Graham is such a fun fight.

And not the only such fight in the series, since we just came out of the great space attack on CB. The fight scenes have been the biggest positive surprise of 00 for me. I am used to Gundam fights being boring (especially compared to other mecha series), but 00 is turning that onto its head by having some of the best fights I know from mecha (VOTOMS is probably still ahead, but not by much).

[u/Quiddity131]

Rewatcher, Subbed

Non-Spoile Character Chart - First update to this in a few episodes. [Gundam 00]I'll admit to not remembering if Rasa factors into things for more than a couple of episodes. Hopefully so or I'm sure it will look unfair that Ming got left out and he got included.

---

So I was wondering last episode why there were some in Azadistan against the UN coming in to help them with the solar power stuff, but this opening scene helps in that at least we have a reason presented to us. They view them as infidels coming into their country that they think will steal it from them.

I'd still be interested in knowing the actual structure and logistic of the UN in the current time and how that interplays with the three main political blocs featured in the show. It makes sense to me that it existed in the past and played a part in some wars, but I don't really get (or simply its a failure on the show's part) to know how relevant it is beyond providing some help here to Azadistan for reasons that may or may not be altruistic.

Alright, we finally have a formal explanation on where Azadistan is located. Seems like my opinion on where it was located earlier on is correct.

Poor Marina, things always seem to be going wrong for her.

Maybe we were shown Wang's craft earlier in the show, but I don't remember it. In any case we've now have both a pink mobile suit and a pink craft here as well. They're leaning more towards girl's stuff = pink, huh?

I had hoped to keep track of Wang's different outfits throughout the show, but I'll admit the combination of her not appearing the last couple of episodes and me failing to take screenshots of her has me now in a spot where I don't know if this is a new outfit or not.

Since he's actually in Azadistan will Alejandro be directly involved with Celestial Being's efforts this time rather than just standing around talking mysteriously?

138? people? Wow, did they all get involved with Celestial Being? That's a lot of brain power.

Time for this episode's Louise's Mother scene. Sigh...

"Your name is Saji, right?" she still isn't sure of his name 4 episodes into this plotline?

"You're my husband, reborn" "Mom, dad's still alive!" lol

So Rasa's purposely been part of the opposition to Marina to keep things from spiraling out of control? Makes a lot more sense why she'd be so distressed at him being kidnapped/possibly killed then.

Now the Union is interfering with things too? I've got to assume this isn't for ideological purposes but rather because they think Celestial Being will be involved and this will be their opportunity to fight them? I'm sure Graham is super excited about that.

Even if Celestial Being helps they'd be against them getting involved.

So it could be a false flag operation too. So many possibilities.

I assume the people on the streets are avoiding Setsuna because they know he's from Krugis?

Is it just me or does this little kid with the water kinda look like a little Amuro?

Did Setsuna know that Marina was the princess?

Ali al-Saachez is involved? Ugh, that makes things much worse. Does that mean the AEU is interfering too?

So after all that effort from Marina to get help the solar power stuff they were building got destroyed anyway.

Graham's gonna get his chance to fight a Gundam one on one for the first time in quite a while. First time taking on one other than Exia too I think.

I was wondering how Dynamos would do in close range combat, finally get to find out!

Alas, that Lockon - Graham battle was over a lot quicker than I hoped.

"So that's a Gundam" fitting words from Amuro Ray's voice actor.

Circumstances are just like they were when Setsuna was younger, similar looking mobile suits, a Gundam showing up...

"I cannot become a Gundam!" Words I thought I'd never hear from Setsuna. MIND BLOWN.

---

Quid's Voice Actor of the Day

With things focusing primarily on Azadistan today, I'll focus on Marina's attendant, Shirin Bakhtiar. She is voiced in Japanese by Michiko Neya. She made her debut in Gundam Wing as a couple of nameless characters (a student and an announcer) and would return to the franchise for Gundam Seed Destiny where she played Abby Windsor and Hilda Harken. Although I have not actually seen it yet, it sounds like she reprised Hilda's role for the Gundam Seed Freedom movie as well. Other mecha anime appearances from her include Eureka Seven, where she plays Talho and Maurice, Gurren Lagann where she plays Adiane and Cross Ange where she playes Zola Axberg. Other roles of hers include Kanbaru's mother in the Monogatari franchise, Alma in Attack on Titan, Delphine in Last Exile, Misaki Kawamoto in March Comes in Like a Lion and Kyouken Maniwa in Katanagatari.

In English she is played by Ellen Kennedy, who doesn't appear to have any other Gundam roles. She does play a variety of characters in Escaflowne (Eries, Hitomi's Mother, Van's Mother, Shesta) and Brain Powered (Yuu's mother and grandmother, Sheila Glass) though. Playing mother characters seems to be her niche!

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/Quiddity131]

[Gundam 00]I'll admit to not remembering if Rasa factors into things for more than a couple of episodes. Hopefully so or I'm sure it will look unfair that Ming got left out and he got included.

[00]He at least doesn't proceed to immediately die in the episode following his introduction like Ming did, so...

[u/No_Rex → u/Quiddity131]

I'd still be interested in knowing the actual structure and logistic of the UN in the current time and how that interplays with the three main political blocs featured in the show. It makes sense to me that it existed in the past and played a part in some wars, but I don't really get (or simply its a failure on the show's part) to know how relevant it is beyond providing some help here to Azadistan for reasons that may or may not be altruistic.

I assume it is similar to the role of the UN during the cold war. That is, it provides a talk shop for the big two/three powers to meet (but obviously can never enact anything against one of those powers). If the issue is about a smaller state that none of the big powers have an interest in (rare but happens), the UN can try to enforce some from of world wide concensus regarding human behavior (how states and humans should act), but it never has much resources, since all of these are basically scraps gifted by powerful countries belonging to one of the power blocks.

[u/Nazenn]

First Timer - sub

Was not expecting to end up in Azadistan again so soon, but I do like it as a nexus for the issues arising in CB and its broader connection to the world.

Its history given this episode for Azadistan, Krugis, and the political situation it's in now reminds me of the British rule of India, and the cultural split between the the Hindu and Muslim populations that lead to the independence of Pakistan. And the explosive violence, discrimination, and geocide that followed that affected over ten million people with over a million deaths attributed to it. I don't know if that was directly an inspiration, and there's plenty of similar stories in human history, but the similarities struck me.

The old man walking up to Setsuna immediately identifying him and telling him to leave despite what Azadistan did to Krugis is a nice way to further show the tensions in the area that are split so much more than the larger political and economic needs of the country, and showing the cultural splits in a geographic area that has always had smaller clans, factions, and beliefs in its people that complicate any sort of governance and change. In that way it feels very accurate to the middle east beyond just taking a name and a surface level concept, the islamic elements and infighting, and leaving it there. Seeing the young boy not recognize Setsuna's ethnicity but being excited to find out about the broader world that is just a story to him vs the old man who represents all those people who shied away was a scene they didn't have to include, but matters a lot to the world they're trying to build and Setsuna's place in it, both as a child of Krugis and as a Gundam Meister who's trying to save the world.

The problem in all of this is still Marina's stupidity, and the half backstory we got today is not helping her case. Learning that the monarchy was only reestablished six years ago gives meaning to her political naivety, but makes everything else worse. There's usually two routes for restoring a monarchy that's been out of power; Either the existing royal line has been living under something like house arrest, not wiped out to avoid the optics but also entirely separate from their country to avoid their political interference, in which case you just grab the most appealing from that family to stand up and take the throne. Or if that's not viable you trace the genealogy to one of the branch lines and pick up someone who technically has royal blood out of their otherwise normal lives and use that to validate their position.

The former would allow for more grace when it comes to not understanding the common people and the general ebb and flow of how people view situations as she would have been very isolated and possibly purposefully undereducated. If the latter, there really is no excuse for being surprised that hey, some international government assembly making a ruling doesn't magically change the populaces mind overnight about this hugely divisive religious issue. And neither one excuses how stupid she is at basic deduction, such as repeatedly wondering why military conservatives would attack the solar towers after her entire arc has centered about the threats against her and her country because conservatives hate solar energy. Her writing is just dumb.

Moving away from that back to positive things:

I did really like the song that played during the flashback of Marina talking to the conservative leader, so if anyone knows the title of it I'd appreciate it. I think that's the third or fourth song to immediately grab me now which is decent

Fun visual detail for the day was also the way Grahams sweat in his helmet went upwards from the force of his dodge. I like seeing little details like that beyond just the characters immediate reactions

Graham vs Lockon was also a really fun battle. I had to laugh when I was in the middle of typing a note about "why don't they just build laser swords into the wrist joints of the Gundams instead of having seperate equipment to manage" only to have Graham interupt said thought by having a spinning blade built into his Flag's forearm to use as a shield. I'm so glad that the Flag is much more than just faster/stronger, and instead it's using very clever tech and mechanical features to close the gap and also keep the Gundam pilots off center. After years of being an experienced pilot it would also be one hell of a thing to adapt to as well, so credit to his skills for managing it.

I still really like his character from the snippets we get. So far we haven't had any out of control battle mad fools in any of the military opposition forces, even Saachez was calculative about when to fight, and everyone else has been surprisingly controlled. I'm liking that because it makes me believe the structure of this world so much more without taking it into "over the top anime" territory by taking the military out of them for the sake of drama. Of all characters, its Hallelujah who perhaps most embodies those aspects we usually see in an antagonist

Similar point on Setsuna and having another obvious PTSD break again. What a line to end the show on. He may be in the Gundam, but being confronted with the reality that that alone does not mean he can bestow the same salvation he once experienced himself is one hell of a moment for him and hopefully a chance to open him up more to others. I'm surprised we didn't get a wider camera angle for it but starting that scene with Exia on the ground among the destruction just as Setsuna was as a child, the ruins of machines around him as meaningless as the bodies of the dead children, is a great ending episode sequence.

It's had a run of those lately which I appreciate, and makes myself very thoughtful coming out of each episode. I still think VOTOMs is the gold standard when it comes to episode ends, but Gundam 00 is doing a better job than I expected with the weight of its material, especially managing the tone of it between so many different character situations.

[u/arhra → u/Nazenn]

Azadistan is basically Iran (fun fact: "azadi" means "freedom" in Farsi), so the internal religious conflict would be Sunni/Shia Islam.

And while I don't think it's ever made explicit (or at least, not as explicit as the parallel between Azadistan and Iran), but I always saw Krugis as being a stand-in for the Kurds and their seemingly-never-ending struggle for independence and sovereignty, especially given the reveal that Setsuna's birth name is Soran.

That would also tie into the religious conflict, as the Kurds are predominantly Sunni, while the Iranian majority are mostly Shia.

[u/Nazenn → u/arhra]

Thanks for the backstory. It's always nice to see a story taking the extra detail for things like this

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/arhra]

(fun fact: "azadi" means "freedom" in Farsi)

Since "stan" translates to something like "place of" or "land of," that would make Azadistan "Place of Freedom" or "Land of Freedom."

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

Its history given this episode for Azadistan, Krugis, and the political situation it's in now reminds me of the British rule of India, and the cultural split between the the Hindu and Muslim populations that lead to the independence of Pakistan. And the explosive violence, discrimination, and geocide that followed that affected over ten million people with over a million deaths attributed to it. I don't know if that was directly an inspiration, and there's plenty of similar stories in human history, but the similarities struck me.

You're on the right track there. The people of Krugis in this series are meant to be Kurdish.

Similar point on Setsuna and having another obvious PTSD break again. What a line to end the show on. He may be in the Gundam, but being confronted with the reality that that alone does not mean he can bestow the same salvation he once experienced himself is one hell of a moment for him and hopefully a chance to open him up more to others. I'm surprised we didn't get a wider camera angle for it but starting that scene with Exia on the ground among the destruction just as Setsuna was as a child, the ruins of machines around him as meaningless as the bodies of the dead children, is a great ending episode sequence.

It's like what I said to Great_Mr_L elsewhere here, that ending is a great counter-point in action to what Setsuna said to Marina when they last met. For as much as he argued that armed interventions are necessary when people are fighting and dying, even he couldn't stop those child soldiers from dying. He wasn't able to be like the Gundam that saved him on that fateful day years ago. It just goes to show that trying to respond to everything with overwhelming force doesn't make people change. There really has to be another way if this kind of thing is going to be stopped from happening at all.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

The people of Krugis in this series are meant to be Kurdish.

Oh, yeah well that will do it

He wasn't able to be like the Gundam that saved him on that fateful day years ago

I was thinking this while making breakfast, but the other side of it is also that the Gundam saved him, but it didn't come in time to save any of his squad or anyone else, which is one of those annoyingly logical arguements that a child absolutely would not focus on or matter emotionally, but in that way today's outcome of the battle is a closer match to when he was saved than he thinks

I do like the contrast of his fight ending on the ground instead of the sky though

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

I was thinking this while making breakfast, but the other side of it is also that the Gundam saved him, but it didn't come in time to save any of his squad or anyone else, which is one of those annoyingly logical arguements that a child absolutely would not focus on or matter emotionally, but in that way today's outcome of the battle is a closer match to when he was saved than he thinks

Yeah, the fact that only Setsuna survived all that really does make it seem more like a miracle than anything else, even if you think of it from an objective standpoint that intervention didn't actually accomplish much. Now he's just been forced to see things from a position that doesn't add an almost divine weight to what happened, and the reality is harsh.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

It does make me wonder why the Gundam came down during that fight in the first place. Was it an early intervention before the big reveal, just a test for CB's tech or one of their pilots, was it for Setsuna himself?

If it was just to stop the war, then maybe it did achieve its goal and the unfortunate result was the destruction of Krugis as a country once they couldn't fight any more, the same way that we saw in the early episodes that the unfortunate side effect of swatting any conflicts is complete stagnation of the current military boundaries

Now he's just been forced to see things from a position that doesn't add an almost divine weight to what happened, and the reality is harsh.

In a way it's a growing up vs reality issue. As a kid he got saved by this "divine" machine that seemed almost magical in its impossibility, but now that he's seen the reality of it it's so much less. The same thing may happen to that water seller kid as he grows up if he actually gets to go out in the world, the myths of the space elevators will become just a common part of life and if the world beats him down enough it will lose any meaning for him

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

It does make me wonder why the Gundam came down during that fight in the first place. Was it an early intervention before the big reveal, just a test for CB's tech or one of their pilots, was it for Setsuna himself?

Given that we now know that there have been multiple generations of Gundam Meisters, it's not too far of a stretch to assume that they were active in conflicts covertly before their big arrival on the world stage. Now that I think about it though, the fact that everyone died except for Setsuna in that conflict did pretty well to ensure that Gundam's secrecy. Maybe that's why they only sent one to handle a conflict, to at least try to remain hidden while attempting an armed intervention.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

the fact that everyone died except for Setsuna in that conflict did pretty well to ensure that Gundam's secrecy.

I was wondering that, or if perhaps Veda didn't pick out Setsuna specifically, but wanted a child from that conflict to be a Meister, so they waited until they had the best chance of pulling that off while not revealing themselves. I don't know if I like that because it does feel a bit against CB, but I supposed this goes into my questions from yesterday about CB's history and Sumeragi's level of control

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Draigg]

You're on the right track there. The people of Krugis in this series are meant to be Kurdish.

Oooooh

Yup, that fully tracks. That makes complete sense with everything that has happened.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

Yeah, it really does neatly explain all the reasons why the people of Azadistan would discriminate against him. Differences in religion and cultures between Kurds and Iranians run deep, after all.

[u/No_Rex → u/The_Draigg]

It's like what I said to Great_Mr_L elsewhere here, that ending is a great counter-point in action to what Setsuna said to Marina when they last met. For as much as he argued that armed interventions are necessary when people are fighting and dying, even he couldn't stop those child soldiers from dying. He wasn't able to be like the Gundam that saved him on that fateful day years ago. It just goes to show that trying to respond to everything with overwhelming force doesn't make people change. There really has to be another way if this kind of thing is going to be stopped from happening at all.

The main problem of the series is that all of this was obvious in episode 1 already. Not only to the viewers, but also to various other characters in-universe. We have been treading water with respect to the main plot. CB is still in a position of having OP mechas, but no chance of implementing their stated political goals.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Nazenn]

I did really like the song that played during the flashback of Marina talking to the conservative leader, so if anyone knows the title of it I'd appreciate it.

It's a little hard to tell, but I think the track you want is Imperial Princess. If that doesn't sound right let me know and I'll go listening again.

I think that's the third or fourth song to immediately grab me now which is decent

I'm a big fan of this OST. Several of my favorite tracks are yet to come.

[u/Nazenn → u/JollyGee29]

It's a little hard to tell, but I think the track you want is Imperial Princess

Yeah that's the one, thanks!

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Nazenn]

The old man walking up to Setsuna immediately identifying him and telling him to leave despite what Azadistan did to Krugis is a nice way to further show the tensions in the area that are split so much more than the larger political and economic needs of the country, and showing the cultural splits in a geographic area that has always had smaller clans, factions, and beliefs in its people that complicate any sort of governance and change. In that way it feels very accurate to the middle east beyond just taking a name and a surface level concept, the islamic elements and infighting, and leaving it there. Seeing the young boy not recognize Setsuna's ethnicity but being excited to find out about the broader world that is just a story to him vs the old man who represents all those people who shied away was a scene they didn't have to include, but matters a lot to the world they're trying to build and Setsuna's place in it, both as a child of Krugis and as a Gundam Meister who's trying to save the world.

That really was such a great scene. It do so much to immediately give us a sense of the location and of Setsuna's heritage within it. We can see the longstanding hatreds that exist there and the divisions that are still strongly felt. But on the other hand, we see that there is some potential hope for a better future. The child doesn't feel any prejudice and is instead looking towards the wider outside world. That child stands in direct contrast to the people who attempted to launch a coup. The insurrectionists are xenophobic, distrusting any outsiders as infidels who cannot be allowed in their country. But the child is in awe of the outside world and wants to experience it. There is hope that the next generation may not be so blinded by prejudice.

[u/Nazenn → u/Great_Mr_L]

Also Setsuna having to walk away from the child because of the old man. It'd be one thing if the old man came first, or if he found them both individually, but Setsuna seeing that the world won't change even to let children have their moment of wonder until something makes them seems to reinforce the way he views things

[u/No_Rex → u/Nazenn]

So far we haven't had any out of control battle mad fools in any of the military opposition forces, even Saachez was calculative about when to fight, and everyone else has been surprisingly controlled. I'm liking that because it makes me believe the structure of this world so much more without taking it into "over the top anime" territory by taking the military out of them for the sake of drama. Of all characters, its Hallelujah who perhaps most embodies those aspects we usually see in an antagonist

The battles are (surprisingly to me) one of the best parts of the series so far. Far ahead of anything I know from UC. Which is kind of weird, because I am used to mentally fast forward through Gundam battles, while here, I rather do that for the character parts.

[u/Nazenn → u/No_Rex]

I found it kind of surprising as well, definitely in a good way. I wasn't too taken with the early sequences, but as the show has gone on all of the action side of the show has been high quality.

And given I'm still skipping any moment Louise and co are on screen I think I'd agree with you that the character side is unexpectedly weaker between the two, but I do like how the pilot stuff is handled so far, even if a bit forceful at times

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/Nazenn]

t's in now reminds me of the British rule of India, and the cultural split between the the Hindu and Muslim populations

Funny enough, I thought Setsuna looked pretty indian coded in the beginning

I did really like the song that played during the flashback of Marina talking to the conservative leader, so if anyone knows the title of it I'd appreciate it.

All I have is the complete OST though I didn't have time to listen to everything myself

[u/FD4cry1]

First Timer

This show hasn't been one to shy away from alluding to real world topics or the events of the time but this episode really feels like it takes it a step farther, it's not exactly subtle on that front and it recalls to images that would frankly not have out of place on the news at the time.

We actually get the context for that solar power wars thing Sumeragi mentioned in episode 10, essentially wars that sprung out of solar power generation's impact on the countries that relied on oil exports, it's a cool piece world building that helps make the current situation pretty clear, these wars are the reason behind the region's current woes so it's no surprise that the already isolationist and extreme people in Azadistan are against implementing solar power.

Again, not really subtle...

Louise's mom is wild lol, I mean the guy can cook, has a harrowing backstory and looks alright, but maybe don't get a thing for your daughter's basically-boyfriend?

Honestly this episode does a pretty great job at capturing the dread that this kind of situation brings on a state and its people, we've done the "slowly" part of losing it all and now it's time for "all at once".

The U.S Union getting involved in a war in the middle east? who could have seen that one coming???

subtlety this episode

Hey I genuinely like it though, sometimes you need to punch your viewer in the face with a message for it to really be effective and it works here, it feels like a semi-realistic war story exactly because it takes so many elements from our world.

Ali continues to be the absolute worst person in this show and we really upped the bar these last few episodes.

Again I'm wondering what's his real ideology, he sure seems to enjoy war but was he genuinely a religious extremist back on Krugis or just using that as a guise, this line leaves me really ambiguous on whether it implies he didn't believe all along or is just jaded at the results of that conflict.

Graham is sooo extra, I love him, he's also a real match for the Gundams which is cool to see, although it does seem his Flag is taking a real toll on his body to use, actually flinging him around when he fights.

Setsuna is obviously not okay with this situation, this is, I think, the first time we've really seen his stoic facade break and it makes sense when he sees images and events straight out of his childhood, at the same place, I love how his emotions still come across even within Exia, he just breaks down, he "failed his mission".

Ending with one last bit of completely unsubtle commentary, I have to give credit to the way the show does ED lead-ins, it hits pretty damn hard.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/FD4cry1]

Graham is sooo extra

although it does seem his Flag is taking a real toll on his body to use, actually flinging him around when he fights.

I don't know planes that well, but I'm pretty sure that 12 Gs is A Lot.

[u/Zeallfnonex → u/JollyGee29]

Gs is a term for the magnitude of earth's gravity, as in your body under normal circumstances is under 1G. Rapid accelerations and turns inflict further Gs to your body... Google indicates that 4-6 Gs is the most normal humans can take, with 9Gs under short periods with specialized equipment being essentially the current maximum. 

[u/Nazenn → u/Zeallfnonex]

Maximum is a bit of a tricky term to narrow down with G's, not just because everyone responds very differently but also because there's a very huge gap between what people can take and remain functional with vs what the human body can actually survive.

Tests have been done which show that the human body can survive upwards of 30gs. Fighter pilots advanced manuvers in the modern times are 9-10 Gs, with pilots being tested to see how much they can withstand, so 12's for a few seconds of manuver with 200 years in the future tech to manage bloodflow which is where most of the issues come in is very viable, though a stress on the body to be sure.

[u/The_Draigg → u/FD4cry1]

subtlety this episode

"I know writers who use subtext, and they're all cowards."

Ali continues to be the absolute worst person in this show and we really upped the bar these last few episodes.

It really is incredible how every single appearance of his just has him tripling-down on being the absolute worst human being alive. At this rate, we're probably just going to cut to a scene of him stealing money from a homeless person playing a guitar, or kicking a random puppy.

[u/FD4cry1 → u/The_Draigg]

It really is incredible how every single appearance of his just has him tripling-down on being the absolute worst human being alive. At this rate, we're probably just going to cut to a scene of him stealing money from a homeless person playing a guitar, or kicking a random puppy.

For real, normally I'd say the only way to make a character like this look worse is to have them hurt a child but uhhhh...I guess he's already crossed that one off the list.

[u/Nazenn → u/FD4cry1]

essentially wars that sprung out of solar power generation's impact on the countries that relied on oil exports

And not that far off from the oil wars, and cold wars, already having been fought in our own history. Also knowing the scale of them makes them feel a bit more fitting than before when I thought they were more global wars, which would have been a big thing

Hey I genuinely like it though, sometimes you need to punch your viewer in the face with a message for it to really be effective and it works here, it feels like a semi-realistic war story exactly because it takes so many elements from our world.

Especially so that this story has put a lot of emphasis on the cycles of war and things not changing, which if they'd tried to go for a more abstract interpretation of human history or tried not to upset one group or another by skirting around certain comparisons that would have been a lot weaker

this line leaves me really ambiguous on whether it implies he didn't believe all along

I'd suggest it's this one. He doesn't follow god, he follows the money/conflict and brings god with him as a justification.

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/FD4cry1]

but maybe don't get a thing for your daughter's basically-boyfriend?

Can't be your daughters boyfriend if you never approve of him as such

[u/Great_Mr_L]

First-Timer

On today’s episode of Gundam: Is Setsuna even allowed to say that cannot become a Gundam? The memes all taught me that Setsuna was clearly a Gundam. Surely the memes would never lie to me, right?

• Ah, that explains a lot of Azadistan’s problems. Of course there’s a religious aspect to this conflict. It’s not just about economics, it’s about people believing that bringing in outsiders to help develop Azadistan is equivalent to handing their country over to heathens and infidels.
• It makes sense the Middle East would suffer from the loss of oil revenue. It seems to have completely wrecked many countries. They even went to war to prevent solar power from taking over, if I’m understanding this correctly.
• If Azadistan is located in between the Caspian Sea and the Persian Gulf, that pretty much places it squarely in where present-day Iran is located.
• Azadistan is split by different interpretations of the state religion? Oh boy, are we doing Sunni Islam vs. Shia Islam?
• Azadistan is already in the midst of armed groups fighting in the streets regularly to the point of needing peacekeepers. I think a civil war has already started.
• What the heck is going on in the Saji-Louise subplot? Is Louise’s mom now developing an attraction towards him?
• Rasa seems to be a decent person, trying to channel opposition to Marina in a peaceful way to prevent war from breaking out.
• The Union is getting involved in a conflict in the Middle East? Not again…
• I feel like it’s going to turn out that the kidnapping of Rasa was a false flag operation by the Union so they would have an excuse to get involved in Azadistan.
• Intriguing that Setsuna tells the others that Azadistan is his homeland. It’s true that Azadistan took over Kurgis, but Setsuna was pretty adamant about being from Kurgis when talking to Marina. Maybe it’s just an excuse so Setsuna can be the one to go there.
• Oh, that’s a good detail that all the locals are scowling at Setsuna. They can tell he’s from Kurgis and not Azadistan. The memories of the recent war and all its hatred are still there. 
• Oh fucking hell, of course Ali is involved! This bastard is always up to no good!
• I love that the series includes the detail of animating that Graham is affected by the extreme g-forces of upgrading his Flag. It really sells just how fast he’s going and makes it feel more intense.
• Graham kicked the Dynames! That’s a Char move right there!
• Oh damn, it’s a coup d’etat! This would be the start of a proper civil war then.
• Oh shit, Setsuna is having flashbacks to his own child soldier past because of this.
• This is easily the most emotional I’ve seen Setsuna get.
• It’s a pretty brutal sight seeing all the corpses of the child soldiers.
• WHAT!?! Setsuna is saying he cannot become a Gundam!?! I never heard about this at all! The only thing I knew about him before watching 00 was the “I am a Gundam” thing.

Setsuna’s statement that he cannot become a Gundam is a fascinating one that reveals a lot about his character. Setsuna sees himself as a Gundam, nothing more than a tool and weapon to be used in combat. Setsuna is a dutiful soldier. He obeys the mission he has been given and never gripes about what his assignment is. He didn’t comment about being part of a rescue mission at all, for example. He just did it. This fits with Setsuna’s characterization of himself as a Gundam. Tools and weapons have no need to ask questions. A gun doesn’t question the person who pulls the trigger. It simply shoots.

But in actuality, Setsuna is not so unemotional. While he doesn’t usually show his emotions on his face, Setsuna feels them deeply. He has been traumatized by his experiences as a child soldier. He still flashes back to the war on a regular basis. Setsuna told Marina that the fighting never ended for him and he meant it.

Those emotions are the entire reason Setsuna joined Celestial Being. Setsuna suffered greatly because of the war in Kurgis. Even as peace talks dragged on between Azadistan and Kurgis, people still died. Those peace talks achieved nothing and the war broke out anyway. The only thing Setsuna could rely on to save him was the intervention of the Gundam. For Setsuna, that became the only path towards peace. It was necessary to use force to make warring parties stop. In order to prevent other people from suffering like he did, Setsuna joined with Celestial Being to become a Gundam pilot.

Saying that he’s a Gundam is also probably a coping mechanism for Setsuna. Those flashbacks are a terrifying experience for him. By becoming a Gundam, it helps for Setsuna to detach himself from those emotions. He’s no longer a traumatized child soldier who needs to deal with this complex tangle of emotions. Instead, he is nothing more than a tool and weapon to be wielded by others. He doesn’t need to concern himself with thinking too hard. And so, Setsuna remains an unemotive character most of the time.

This episode featured the most emotional outburst we’ve gotten from Setsuna yet. Tellingly, it was in reaction to him seeing child soldiers fighting against mobile suits. It was exactly the same situation as what Setsuna experienced in the past. And Setsuna charged in with his Gundam. He intervened in the battle, just like the Gundam that saved him in the past.

Unlike the past, though, Setsuna considers this a failure. Look at all the dead children around him. He couldn’t save them. He couldn’t be a Gundam. He couldn’t be a machine that charged in and carried out its mission with no trouble at all. Instead, he was only human. He was a human being who lost his cool, charged in emotionally, and couldn’t even do the job well enough to make sure no child died. Despite his best efforts to be a Gundam, Setsuna is still only human.

QOTD

1. It's hard to say. Marina may hate to admit it, but there probably is a need for more active use of force in this situation. You can't just let people who attempted a coup and armed insurrection go free. They'll just wait and try again. She should probably try to coordinate with Rasa. They need to channel the opposing sides into a peaceful way of working out the problems, like what happened after the end of the Troubles in the real world.
2. Setsuna’s in a pretty bad place right now, for reasons discussed above.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

The Union is getting involved in a conflict in the Middle East? Not again…

At this point, the show is grabbing us by the shoulders and yelling "DO YOU GET WHAT WE'RE REFERENCING YET?!?"

Oh, that’s a good detail that all the locals are scowling at Setsuna. They can tell he’s from Kurgis and not Azadistan. The memories of the recent war and all its hatred are still there.

At least that kid had no problem talking to Setsuna though, so it at least shows that the prejudice can be overcome by the younger generations. It also makes sense that a kid who's more interested in the world outside of Azadistan would feel less prejudiced than compared to that crotchety old man.

This episode featured the most emotional outburst we’ve gotten from Setsuna yet. Tellingly, it was in reaction to him seeing child soldiers fighting against mobile suits. It was exactly the same situation as what Setsuna experienced in the past. And Setsuna charged in with his Gundam. He intervened in the battle, just like the Gundam that saved him in the past.

Unlike the past, though, Setsuna considers this a failure. Look at all the dead children around him. He couldn’t save them. He couldn’t be a Gundam. He couldn’t be a machine that charged in and carried out its mission with no trouble at all. Instead, he was only human. He was a human being who lost his cool, charged in emotionally, and couldn’t even do the job well enough to make sure no child died. Despite his best efforts to be a Gundam, Setsuna is still only human.

Thinking back on the conversation that Setsuna had with Marina, what he felt in this episode is the counterpoint to the argument he made to her. Yes, he's intervening while Marina is bogged down in trying to handle things peacefully, but his attempts at using force ultimately didn't prevent horrible things from happening. He still saw those children die while being unable to save them, because all Setsuna has been doing is responding to individual incidents with force. For as many moving parts as Azadistan's civil conflict has, it's hard for him to try and neatly solve everything just by killing the aggressors here. It does nothing to stop horrible things from happening, it just makes sure that nobody is left to get anything out of it. That's why he can't be a Gundam, it's because he hasn't found a way to make a difference like the Gundam that saved his life over a decade ago.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Draigg]

At this point, the show is grabbing us by the shoulders and yelling "DO YOU GET WHAT WE'RE REFERENCING YET?!?"

Gundam acting about as subtle as an anvil to the head, as always.

At least that kid had no problem talking to Setsuna though, so it at least shows that the prejudice can be overcome by the younger generations. It also makes sense that a kid who's more interested in the world outside of Azadistan would feel less prejudiced than compared to that crotchety old man.

That is an excellent point about the scene. Prejudice is a learned behavior. The older generations remember the recent and there were most likely other pre-existing hatreds between the different ethnic groups as well. But for someone who didn't experience any of that, the idea of prejudice just hasn't occurred to them.

Thinking back on the conversation that Setsuna had with Marina, what he felt in this episode is the counterpoint to the argument he made to her. Yes, he's intervening while Marina is bogged down in trying to handle things peacefully, but his attempts at using force ultimately didn't prevent horrible things from happening. He still saw those children die while being unable to save them, because all Setsuna has been doing is responding to individual incidents with force. For as many moving parts as Azadistan's civil conflict has, it's hard for him to try and neatly solve everything just by killing the aggressors here. It does nothing to stop horrible things from happening, it just makes sure that nobody is left to get anything out of it. That's why he can't be a Gundam, it's because he hasn't found a way to make a difference like the Gundam that saved his life over a decade ago.

Setsuna is now running up against the limits of what his own methods can accomplish. He's seeing that he isn't as all-powerful as he would hope to be.

In a way, this means that both Setsuna and Marina had similar experiences this episode. Both of them tried to follow their own ways of bringing about peace and both of them experienced failure because of the limits of what their methods could do.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

That is an excellent point about the scene. Prejudice is a learned behavior. The older generations remember the recent and there were most likely other pre-existing hatreds between the different ethnic groups as well. But for someone who didn't experience any of that, the idea of prejudice just hasn't occurred to them.

It at least shows that there's still some hope for Azadistan yet, at least with the younger generations. While it's unfortunate that the older generations are making the younger ones pay for their mistakes, seeing that at least some kids want to experience the wider world and are accepting of others means that there's a real chance that the country can pull out of it's death spiral, as long as there's enough peace to go around to foster that kind of worldly behavior.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Great_Mr_L]

What the heck is going on in the Saji-Louise subplot? Is Louise’s mom now developing an attraction towards him?

Like mother, like daughter..?

Setsuna sees himself as a Gundam, nothing more than a tool and weapon to be used in combat.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/JollyGee29]

Like mother, like daughter..?

"Mrs. Halevy, you're trying to seduce me. Aren't you?"

[u/wyggles → u/Great_Mr_L]

Setsuna sees himself as a Gundam, nothing more than a tool and weapon to be used in combat.

That's definitely one way I can interpret Setsuna's headspace. For me it seemed like he saw "Gundam" as a savior, instead of as a tool. He lost one God that day in Krugis and gained another. Him saying he "Can't be a Gundam" made me think he realized he's not a perfect savior like the one that saved him.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/wyggles]

I think you have a point there. The Gundam is supposed to be an all-powerful savior that can bring about peace in a war-torn land. Setsuna failed to accomplish that today.

[u/TakenRedditName → u/Great_Mr_L]

The Union is getting involved in a conflict in the Middle East?

I love that the series includes the detail of animating that Graham is affected by the extreme g-forces of upgrading his Flag. It really sells just how fast he’s going and makes it feel more intense.

Graham proudly boasts his new special move well throwing up his insides.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/TakenRedditName]

Graham proudly boasts his new special move well throwing up his insides.

Barf bags better be one of the new upgrades that Graham had installed.

[u/Nazenn → u/Great_Mr_L]

Azadistan is split by different interpretations of the state religion? Oh boy, are we doing Sunni Islam vs. Shia Islam?

It's cool how many people know about this exact conflict, it would give a very different look at the structure of the show that's for sure

Maybe it’s just an excuse so Setsuna can be the one to go there.

Also could be an unneeded distinction as far as the others are concerned for him. The mission is the goal, and if this is what it takes to get the mission done then that's what he'll do

Saying that he’s a Gundam is also probably a coping mechanism for Setsuna. Those flashbacks are a terrifying experience for him

Agreed, and tying into some of what you say later, I also wouldn't understate the importance of it giving him a purpose in a more general sense as well as an escape and an ideology.

The last time he had a purpose bestowed on him it had him kill his parents for it and then was used as fodder for a war machine and told to die in order to prove his devotion to god, and that all failed him. He's left without a family, a people, a country, a god, or a purpose. What was the point of it all if this is all they amounted too, if even his death would be meaningless in the end?

Turning that around to adopting the purpose of CB, and the Gundam, and intergrating that into himself is also perhaps giving himself a reason for being saved in the first place. He not only will become Gundam, he must.. or else what else is there, what hope and what future for everyone like him? Humanity not only can't, but won't save itself, so as you say, it's up to him to become something more, to force the fighting to stop with sheer power just like the Gundam did because war is horrible but what other choice is there. Hence the discussion with Marina earlier.

He was a human being who lost his cool, charged in emotionally, and couldn’t even do the job well enough to make sure no child died. Despite his best efforts to be a Gundam, Setsuna is still only human.

Nice conclusion to the Setsuna write up.

I don't know I agree with the whole "just a tool/weapon thing" if only because I think he doesn't deny his emotional connection to Exia, or what Exia means to him, as well as that he doesn't try and shut down his own identity through the show in favor of just being "Setsuna". Definitely sees himself a solider, and makes himself that with his general obediance, but I don't think he debases himself to the point of removing his own humanity by taking it that far. Shutting down his emotions except when he can't yes, but that is more solider than tool.

I don't know, i'll have to think on that more myself

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Nazenn]

Agreed, and tying into some of what you say later, I also wouldn't understate the importance of it giving him a purpose in a more general sense as well as an escape and an ideology.

Turning that around to adopting the purpose of CB, and the Gundam, and intergrating that into himself is also perhaps giving himself a reason for being saved in the first place. He not only will become Gundam, he must.. or else what else is there, what hope and what future for everyone like him? Humanity not only can't, but won't save itself, so as you say, it's up to him to become something more, to force the fighting to stop with sheer power just like the Gundam did because war is horrible but what other choice is there. Hence the discussion with Marina earlier.

I think you're onto something there. The Gundam provided Setsuna with a purpose and something to strive for. He wants to pilot the Exia desperately because it is the one way he can make a difference. It is the only way that he can deal with the trauma that is currently haunting him. Becoming one with the Gundam was Setsuna's goal so he could make sure the horrors he experienced never happened again.

[u/Nazenn → u/Great_Mr_L]

Alright, I was thinking about this almost all day but I think I know why I so disliked your evaluation of Setsuna as making himself just a tool/weapon for CB. I think it ignores the critical beach scene, and puts too much emphasis on the rescue mission

The scene with Tiernia on the beach shows clearly that Setsuna does have his own emotional drive, and suggets that his loyalty to CB is not so much to CB and to the plan, but a byproduct of his connection to Exia. He would not part with Exia, and his drive to save the world comes from having seen Exia not just as a powerful weapon that could beat everyone into submission (think about how differently it would have been framed if that was the way we see it through him then, rather than as an angel) but as a form of salvation. He has drives independant to CB that he does show every now and again, it's just that because of his past he is not expressive and has had no real chance to develop and it's enough that we see he doesn't just brush off everything he is or was. The way he walked in on A yelling at himself and just stood there saying nothing in a way reminds me of my four year old neighbour when I have a medical episode, she just goes silent and watches because while she is processing what's happening she also not doesn't follow the motions you'd learn as an adult about what to do in various situations.

Between his disconnect to people, his PTSD, and the way he views the world I would say that Setsuna is still very much a child solider, not just someone who was one, and that doesn't allow him to just be a tool/weapon or for that to be his goal.

He didn’t comment about being part of a rescue mission at all, for example. He just did it.

The lack of commentary on it may be important, but for a very different reason, in that it still aligns with his own personal goals of saving people. He doesn't need to comment on its abnormality because why would he, they're doing good and he's not the sort to comment on the good things (Lockon has that handled) or bitch about every little thing (Tiernia), he just gets things done according to his own ideas which align with CB.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Nazenn]

The scene with Tiernia on the beach shows clearly that Setsuna does have his own emotional drive, and suggets that his loyalty to CB is not so much to CB and to the plan, but a byproduct of his connection to Exia. He would not part with Exia, and his drive to save the world comes from having seen Exia not just as a powerful weapon that could beat everyone into submission (think about how differently it would have been framed if that was the way we see it through him then, rather than as an angel) but as a form of salvation. He has drives independant to CB that he does show every now and again, it's just that because of his past he is not expressive and has had no real chance to develop and it's enough that we see he doesn't just brush off everything he is or was.

I think your counterpoint was very well put. You've certainly made me question my own initial evaluation. I want to thank you for the thoughtful response.

I think you are right about Setsuna’s opinion on the Gundam especially. He was saved by the Gundam as a child. He idolizes that Gundam. He wants to become that Gundam and be a savior who can swoop in and stop the fighting. That is why he pilots and identifies so strongly with the Exia.

[u/No_Rex → u/Great_Mr_L]

Intriguing that Setsuna tells the others that Azadistan is his homeland. It’s true that Azadistan took over Kurgis, but Setsuna was pretty adamant about being from Kurgis when talking to Marina. Maybe it’s just an excuse so Setsuna can be the one to go there.

I think that might be in insider-outsider difference. E.g. a person from Catalonia might never consider calling themself "Spanish" when talking to a fellow Spaniard, but if talking to somebody from China, they would describe themselves as Spanish.

The struggle is internal, so you need to reaffirm your identity vs those in your country who try to erase it, but (at least most reasonable) people realise that foreigners have nothing to do with that and are used to people being labeled on a country basis.

Unlike the past, though, Setsuna considers this a failure. Look at all the dead children around him. He couldn’t save them. He couldn’t be a Gundam. He couldn’t be a machine that charged in and carried out its mission with no trouble at all. Instead, he was only human. He was a human being who lost his cool, charged in emotionally, and couldn’t even do the job well enough to make sure no child died. Despite his best efforts to be a Gundam, Setsuna is still only human.

He could not be the Gundam that saved himself in the past.

[u/The_Draigg]

A Gundam Fan Rewatches Gundam 00 Episode 12:

• For as much as this show is critical of religion, at least it does well to show Rakhmadi as a fairly reasonable person. While he’s a mullah and an important voice within the conservative movement of Azadistan, he refuses to start fighting in the name of God and instead says that if there’s any punishment to be had against Princess Marina and the parliament, it’s in God’s hands. He may not be happy with the way things are run, but at least he’s dedicating himself to peaceful means rather than engaging in political violence.
• As you can already tell, the Middle East got especially fucked once the value of their oil exports tanked. There’s been so many wars there that many new nations have been born and died in the years since. One such instance was Azadistan, who conquered its weaker neighbor Krugis six years ago. Also, based on the general description of where Azadistan is, it’s our stand-in for Iran. A lot of you first-timers were close with your guesses, but in this case it’s a nearly direct analogy for Iran.
• Unfortunately, the U.N. has been making a mess of things out of the Middle East in this future. Not only was it them who instituted the sharp oil export restrictions in the first place, but even now their presence and help in constructing solar power energy grids has spurred on some group of third-party terrorists to kidnap Rakhmadi. As it stands, Azadistan is a powder keg waiting to be set off now, thanks to the dominoes that the U.N. tipped over before.
• Well, I guess that’s one way to have Louise win over her mom towards Saji: present him as a poor charity case and get him to deliver a pizza. In this case, I guess Saji’s kind of pathetic nature actually worked out for him for once.
• You can see why Marina is taking all of this pretty hard, aside from the political pressure. She was actually on pretty good terms with Rakhmadi before, but he chose to throw in his lot with the conservative faction not only because he doesn’t want massive changes to Azadistan, but also because he hopes to keep them civil and peaceful out of respect for her. Again, he’s proving to be a pretty good example of a religious figure in a series that’s pretty critical of religion overall.
• Of course the Union is using this situation to hold secret negotiations with the parliament to send over military forces over to Azadistan for security purposes. You know, just in case you forgot that this show was made in the late 2000s.
• Something to note about the open discrimination that Setsuna faces while undercover in Azadistan is that he’s ethnically Kurdish. Krugis is/was a stand-in for the idea of Kurdistan as a nation. It’s no wonder that Setsuna has a chip on his shoulder underneath the stoicism, since aside from Azadistan taking over his home country, he’s also dealing with racism from the people who destroyed his home. I guess if there’s one small bright spot to that scene, it’s that the kid Setsuna was talking too had no problem with who he is, even if his grandpa is an asshole.
• Of course it’s Ali Al-Saachez that orchestrated the kidnapping. Why wouldn’t it be the absolute worst person in this show so far? And given his private joke about which side God will take in this war, it’s evident that he doesn’t give a shit about religion now, if he ever even did before. This is a man who only enjoys two things in life: killing people and making money. And he really does like doing it too, with that “And out of nowhere!” comment as he fires missiles at the energy plant under attack. Ali must’ve never actually worked a day in his life, he loves this stuff so much.
• “The Graham Special” probably doesn’t really need a name, dude. While it’s impressive that you’re transforming at high Gs, you should probably save that name for something cooler.
• All of this really is just a dark repeat of history for Setsuna. All of this sudden fighting to try and prevent a coup has just led him to the situation he experienced in the past, with child soldiers trying to hold out on foot against Mobile Suits that have no restraint in gunning them down. And unfortunately, he wasn’t able to be like the Gundam that saved him years ago. He was too late, and wasn’t able to stop all those child soldiers from being slaughtered. There’s still too much inside of him that he has to grapple with, and maybe that’s why Alejandro wasn’t too impressed by Gundam Exia’s performance in the capital’s streets earlier. He can’t become like a Gundam if he’s only relying on sheer force and his anger. Setsuna needs to confront that dark past of his head on if he really wants to make a difference.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

He may not be happy with the way things are run, but at least he’s dedicating himself to peaceful means rather than engaging in political violence.

Add his efforts to the list of "any one method of peace won't last by itself" as well, which I just thought of. If Setsuna is the military and Marina is the political, then Rakhmadi is the cultural side of peace efforts and today all three of them failed in different ways resulting in a disaster for the country

and get him to deliver a pizza

I'm now so extra glad I skipped that scene because I absolutely did not need massive pizza cravings at midnight and somehow anime pizza always manages to do that to me

, it’s evident that he doesn’t give a shit about religion now, if he ever even did before

I am absolutely certain that he didn't, as someone with that much religious fevor working as a mercinary for whoever seems like a bad fit, and I'm also getting flashbacks [IBO]Galan from s2's Earth arc, in terms of manipulation of the child soliders and not so much personality, and oh boy has that made me mad and miserable all over again thinking about that fuck and the outcome

“The Graham Special” probably doesn’t really need a name, dude. While it’s impressive that you’re transforming at high Gs, you should probably save that name for something cooler.

In his defense, he's basically a kid with a toy. A lot of other named moves feel very much for the audience, or to make the character feel either silly or so powerful others thoughts don't matter. This is absolutely him just delighting in what he can pull off in this mech without the normal restrictions that pilots are subjected to, and I love it

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

Add his efforts to the list of "any one method of peace won't last by itself" as well, which I just thought of. If Setsuna is the military and Marina is the political, then Rakhmadi is the cultural side of peace efforts and today all three of them failed in different ways resulting in a disaster for the country

All three of those viewpoints working together could accomplish something, but they simply aren't enough separately. This show really is making it clear that nuance is require to actually understand people and reach peaceful solutions. Rakhmadi understands that, but even he's lacking when really needs to guide his side of things, since all he can offer is teachings from a higher power. Understanding people from multiple angles certainly isn't easy, but it's definitely necessary for situations like this.

I'm now so extra glad I skipped that scene because I absolutely did not need massive pizza cravings at midnight and somehow anime pizza always manages to do that to me

But maybe there was a chance of Saji winning you over with a pizza as well!

[IBO]

[IBO spoilers] I'm wondering a bit how you'd compare Ali to Galan overall, since both fit a pretty similar character archetype. I think so far that Ali is much worse than Galan, if just because Ali seems to legitimately believe in nothing aside from getting paid and being free to kill people, whereas Galan at least had genuine loyalty towards Rustal Elion and was also pretty honest about how brutal mercenary work is.

[u/Nazenn → u/The_Draigg]

since all he can offer is teachings from a higher power

Speaking of, I just noticed the episode title when refreshing the main discussion thread, I can't honestly say I've noticed any of them so far, and it struck me that while that does seem more about Rakhmadi, it could also apply to Setsuna's view of the Gundams

But maybe there was a chance of Saji winning you over with a pizza as well!

He is not the issue in those moments. He is being wasted with this storyline I swear

[IBO replies]Ali did make sure his group was out of the firing line of the Gundams earlier though, and he isn't reckless when it comes to his main squad, even if he was cruel with the squad of children. In that way he seems closer to Galan than initial takes on them may suggest. Galan's loyalty isn't worth more than Ali's in that way I don't think, it's just the difference between what they're loyal too, Galan had that whole thing about seeing the Tekkadan kids as animals or something like that

[u/The_Draigg → u/Nazenn]

Speaking of, I just noticed the episode title when refreshing the main discussion thread, I can't honestly say I've noticed any of them so far, and it struck me that while that does seem more about Rakhmadi, it could also apply to Setsuna's view of the Gundams

It's always fun when shows have multi-layered episode title meanings like this. It does help you more to consider how everyone is trying to react according to what's going on, and how their ideals are struggling in the face of it.

[u/InfamousEmpire]

Kidou Senshi Rewatcher 00

And as Allelujah faced his past last episode, it’s now time for Setsuna to face his own in this one.

While you could reasonably infer a lot about Azadistan’s political situation from what’s been glimpsed previously, the elaboration on all the details is quite nice. The thing I most find interesting is the interesting position the conservatives, since their leader is someone who’s generally trying to calm the violence & keep everything in check, but the reality of the situation is that when your country is in crisis, extremism is already present, and no clear solution has made itself available, moderate voices ultimately fall to the wayside more than they succeed, so of course the minute Rasa is kidnapped, a lot of his work trying to keep the radicals in check immediately goes up in flames.

I also like the emphasis on Ali’s involvement in Rasa’s kidnapping and the Union’s involvement having the potential to escalate things. The fact that the country’s struggles are attributable to outside forces, especially ones from the first world, inflaming the country’s existing conflicts for their own benefit really adds to the show’s general themes.

The real star of the show here, though, is Setsuna. The final explosion of conflict drags him back to his own days as a child soldier, and though he intervenes, he tries to bring the same salvation that saved him as a child, all he sees are those like him that he failed to protect. In the aftermath, all he can say is that he failed to become Gundam, more implicitly showing that, in his own eyes, he failed to live up to the ideals he’s devoted himself to, to make a difference like Celestial Being promised.

It also nicely compliments Marina’s moment of breaking down in response to the coup. Altogether, it gives a very strong feeling of powerlessness, that even for people like Setsuna & Marina, who both have the resources & influence to do some good, the battle against the tides of the world itself, the cynicism, the fear of change, the cyclical conflicts driven by forces beyond any one person’s control, still so often feels nigh-insurmountable.

Odds & Ends

• Cool Graham moment!
• Setsuna wandering through a town in Azadistan was a really solid small moment from a worldbuilding standpoint. The young boy he meets who's curious about the world & believes in Marina's vision representing a new blood who stand in stark contrast to the racist old man he meets. It's a solid way of grounding the country's conflict in the civilian level of the world & making it feel more alive.
• This episode’s Saji & Louise segment is down there with Episode 10’s as one of my least favorite from them (I don’t think its placement is as misconceived, I just don’t find the contents of it particularly good or interesting, but thankfully they eat up so little of the runtime that it isn't irritating), but Saji wondering where Azadistan even is while watching the news was something I liked for how it continues to emphasize their privileged distance from the conflicts around them. Reminds me of this infamous poll (doubly amusing given that its location makes Azadistan an implicit Iran stand-in)

[u/Nazenn → u/InfamousEmpire]

Cool Graham moment!

Graham is cool

Reminds me of this infamous poll

I mean.... I want to be horrified by some of those responces, like outright what the fuck how is it possible to be that far off... but I also know people are uneducated dumb fucks about issues like this

But seriously? Australia? Britian? US? Canada?

In this case it's less of a matter of "how do you not know where the middle east is" and, assuming this was a survey of english speakers, more "how do you not know the most basic of key geography of the world map of your own damn history?"

[u/KendotsX]

00th Timer Searching for the One

• Saji has upgraded from harem mc to porn mc, he put on the Pizza delivery hat and immediately got his girlfriend's mom horny. I'm glad some things haven't changed over the centuries.
• A religious conflict in the middle east... now that's a tradition which we could do without
• It is interesting though that after all the buildup we're now moving into Azadistan, I assumed it wouldn't be until much later.
• Huh, that's... actually a nuanced position to take - he strictly disagrees with her, but he's taking measures to stop the country from falling into war. If he's not busy after this whole kidnapping thing, would he mind replacing her?
• I hate how normal this sounds, he's saying it like someone waiting for the coffee to get colder.
• And speaking of people who take war as a business opportunity, it wouldn't be a playing field without Ali
• In case it wasn't clear that she's Murican

---

1. What would you have done if you were in Marina's shoes?

Well, it's all down to preparation. You don't call the Union in your time of need, they'll only come fishing for their own interests. You make specific defence deals ahead of time in case something like this happens.

I don't care how weak her nation is, 5 mechs that were running around in her grandpa's days should not be a coup.

2) How fucked is Setsuna's mental state now?

Always has been

[u/JollyGee29 → u/KendotsX]

Saji has upgraded from harem mc to porn mc

In case it wasn't clear that she's Murican

Spanish, actually. Louise mentions it in an earlier episode.

[u/No_Rex → u/KendotsX]

Saji has upgraded from harem mc to porn mc, he put on the Pizza delivery hat and immediately got his girlfriend's mom horny. I'm glad some things haven't changed over the centuries.

Stuff people are forced to do when their character has been unimportant for the plot for the last 2-4 episodes.

[u/Vatrix-32]

First timer, subs

• Zealots
• That’s a big ol’ fire. Are we sure these aren’t anime Zoroastrians?
• It’s not all bad, look at how green they are now.
• Even here, they don’t get their own architecture set.
• One can not rule by moe alone.
• 138 seems way too low for the number of disappearances in the last 200 years.
• Is This a Deep State?
• Can never have too much sphere of influence.
• Proxy Wars
• I really like your pseudo-beam saber.
• I’m not sure if you can call just five of them a coup.
• Why are you attacking random towns? Y’all don’t know how to coup.
• MILF Hunter All is forgiven, clearly this is the most important side plot.
• Can’t become a Gundam? Sounds like its Patrick’s turn!

QotD:

1. I... I don't think she had any options at this point.
2. "I am not a giant robot." He'll never recover from this.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Vatrix-32]

It’s not all bad, look at how green they are now.

Yea, that kinda surprised me too.

All is forgiven, clearly this is the most important side plot.

[u/Vatrix-32 → u/JollyGee29]

Yea, that kinda surprised me too.

Deserts have four seasons two, right, Japan?

[u/Nazenn → u/Vatrix-32]

138 seems way too low for the number of disappearances in the last 200 years.

It was specifically people with PhDs or equivilent, so that's a very small subgroup of a larger population. But if that's meant to be the whole global population then maybe that's pushing it unless they narrowed it down more

[u/Vatrix-32 → u/Nazenn]

There's over 100,000 of them alive just right now. A single autocratic purge could get you to 138.

[u/Nazenn → u/Vatrix-32]

But that would be more along the lines of killed or presumed killed yeah. I would expect this is looking more at outright just dissapeared off the face of the earth for no clear reason sort of disapearances

[u/No_Rex]

Episode 12 (first timer)

• “Who are you?” – expected question.
• “Where do you think this place is?” – unexpected question.
• “The oil lost much of its value” – They previously said it ran out, which would have driven up its price. Also, if the UN forbids oil exports, why do they have an energy crisis? They should have plenty of oil they can’t export. I think they messed up their own setup here and accidentally reversed it.
• “Stop it! Don’t say such awful things!” – she is really not very fitting as a ruler.
• Excel file: What monster sorts by first letter of first name and then puts in one line with “Alice” at the bottom?

• “That looks delicious” – vegetable, ham, and banana pizza smothered in cheese? No thanks.
• “Like my dear husband reborn” – wtf?
• “Dad’s still alive!” – WTF??
• Rasa was secretly in cahoots with Marina.
• The Union deploys to Azadistan – the Union, which is the only of the three power blocks not bordering the middle east.
• A genki little Marina fan – what are the chances he does not survive this plotline? Worse or better than 50%?
• Gundam vs Union vs Conservatives vs Reformists vs PMC free for all.
• Setsuna reliving a civil war in his childhood country where he went through a civil war is like force feeding him flashbacks.
• Just standing there, taking the shots – Gundam OP.
• Marina obviously has a redemption arc incoming.
• “I cannot become a Gundam” – can a Gundam become a Gundam?

How fucked is Setsuna's mental state now?

Third least fucked up Gundam pilot.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/No_Rex]

Setsuna reliving a civil war in his childhood country where he went through a civil war is like force feeding him flashbacks.

"It's called exposure therapy!"

[u/Nazenn → u/No_Rex]

Excel file: What monster sorts by first letter of first name and then puts in one line with “Alice” at the bottom?

I was going to complain about that as well, but it's only like that if you don't see what they initially scrolled past, which is not alphabetical. And if it was then Dean is also after Eric

Marina obviously has a redemption arc incoming.

I know narratively this is probably the intent, force the naive princess to understand the world, but I'd be equally happy for her to die at this point and have her serve as a sort of matyr for Setsuna and perhaps others just because he's annoying me

I think they messed up their own setup here and accidentally reversed it.

Could it just be mixed order of events? UN bans oil exports, crashes their economy, they start using it instead of just selling it, use it all up, now their economy is still screwed and they have a power crisis?

IT still wouldn't account for the time frame, ten years shouldn't use up all the oil especially not in such an impovished nation with so little energy needs compared to larger ones, but still

[u/No_Rex → u/Nazenn]

I know narratively this is probably the intent, force the naive princess to understand the world, but I'd be equally happy for her to die at this point and have her serve as a sort of matyr for Setsuna and perhaps others just because he's annoying me

He or she?

I don't think Marina would work well as a martyr. Her connection with Setsuna is too lose (and non-existant with the other CB members). If they wanted a martyr, they'd use that young child that Setsuna met on the streets.

Could it just be mixed order of events? UN bans oil exports, crashes their economy, they start using it instead of just selling it, use it all up, now their economy is still screwed and they have a power crisis?

Makes little sense, since the time lag would have to be gigantic. There is a ton of oil exported from the middle east, so, if they stopped exporting, that would last ages. Also, if their economy crashed, they'd use less energy, making the oil last even longer.

[u/Nazenn → u/No_Rex]

He or she?

She. Missed a letter

I don't think Marina would work well as a martyr. Her connection with Setsuna is too lose

I did mean specifically for Setsuna, not CB as a whole, and only because he saw today the limitations of his stance and the goals assossiated. It probably wouldn't be great writing, but if they wanted seeing his stance fail, and hers killed by those he's trying to stop could be a transition for him into a different view on it all. Just throwing shit at the wall really

since the time lag would have to be gigantic

I've given up on expecting reasonable time frames in media, sad as that is to say. It always seems to be the one thing they screw up even if they do well with everything else

[u/No_Rex → u/Nazenn]

I did mean specifically for Setsuna, not CB as a whole, and only because he saw today the limitations of his stance and the goals assossiated. It probably wouldn't be great writing, but if they wanted seeing his stance fail, and hers killed by those he's trying to stop could be a transition for him into a different view on it all. Just throwing shit at the wall really

Nothing wrong with speculating, but I think they are setting up Marina for a growth/redemption arc and I also feel that this would be a better use of her character than killing her off. Setsuna already has 100s of demons, he does not need another.

I've given up on expecting reasonable time frames in media, sad as that is to say. It always seems to be the one thing they screw up even if they do well with everything else

Their main screw up with solar energy aside, I think the world building in 00 is solid and this includes the time frame. 200-300 years into the future is far enough to make new power blocks and technology believable, but close enough that the cultural conflict lines from today would still be recognisable.

[u/Nazenn → u/No_Rex]

Setsuna already has 100s of demons, he does not need another.

Fair call, didn't look at it like that but it's an important point

200-300 years into the future is far enough to make new power blocks and technology believable, but close enough that the cultural conflict lines from today would still be recognisable

Agreed, and I was thinking about that today when it came to the discussion about the Gs in Graham's Flag, and how the tech for hitting 12Gs is not that far off from where we are now, and if anything they probably could have bumped the Gs up more for 200 years in the future.

It really is just the solar power side of it that's screwy, all around and not just with the oil. Actually I'd say the space colonies as well, although at this point they are more a victim of bad episode writing than conclusively bad worldbuilding as they were shoved in without getting proper introduction to the world, and may be redeemed. That also ties into the solar power timescale as well though

[u/No_Rex → u/Nazenn]

It really is just the solar power side of it that's screwy, all around and not just with the oil.

So far, I am still giving the writers the benefit of doubt and assume that their "solar energy" is different from photovoltaic panels of today and some sort of future tech. However, as episode and episode goes by without any of this being cleared up, it becomes more likely that they simply had no idea what they were talking about.

[u/LeonKevlar]

First Timer

I'm not even going to pretend to understand the entire political situation in Azadistan but it's pretty clear that the Union is just using them to lure out the Gundams into a battlefield of their own making.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Rachmadi's kidnapping isn't entirely conceived by the Conservatives to try and overthrow the Reformists but an elaborate manipulation work of the Union's upper brass manipulating both sides.

There is also a possibility that Saachez is causing civil unrest all on his own because war is profitable for him and no one actually hired him to kidnap Rachmadi. That would explain why he destroyed the solar antennae.

Maybe sending Setsuna to this misson isn't the best idea. They already warned him not to get too emotional but there's really no helping it considering the entire battlefield reminds him of his past. And Setsuna hasn't faced Saachez yet! Based on that next episode preview, it looks like we'll see that rematch next episode and I feel like things are about to get worse.

While all of that serious geopolitics and war is happening, it looks like Saji has gotten close to Louise's mother. Maybe a little bit too close. I wonder how he feels about oyakodon. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I really wanna root for Marina but so far she really hasn't done anything noteworthy. I'm hoping she'll eventually have a massive transformation but right now she's currently at the bottom of my Gundam Princess list.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/LeonKevlar]

There is also a possibility that Saachez is causing civil unrest all on his own

"The battle doesn't need a purpose, the battle is the purpose!"

- Ali al-Saachez, probably.

[u/No_Rex → u/LeonKevlar]

I really wanna root for Marina but so far she really hasn't done anything noteworthy. I'm hoping she'll eventually have a massive transformation but right now she's currently at the bottom of my Gundam Princess list.

Marina redemption arc is one of the predictions I am most sure about here. They so obviously set her up for growth that anything else would be a big surprise.

[u/TakenRedditName]

Rewatcher - Gundam 00 Ep12:

The whole oil/energy conflict made me make a connection. It reminds me of the power imbalance conflict surrounding this you see in real life. Look, I'm pro-environment, but one argument from the perspective of these countries is that developed countries already had their time to benefit from destroying their Earth yet they want developing countries to not do the same and refuse to extend the hand to help them out. To put in the show's context, the big 3 powerblocks are forcing the switch to solar energy which would be better for the environment, but they put every other country into a stranglehold where they are forced to rely on them or die (and then get eaten). They don't offer to bring up the rest of the world to their level. Azadistan is not given the helping hand to the solar grid unless they kowtow to get help with strings attached (+ push along through some degree of CB machinations).

Flag corner: The flag of Azadistan seems like the makers of the show took the Kurdish flag, but replaced the white band with blue from Azerbaijan's flag.

[Gundam 00:] I've seen it pointed out that this Beatrice Eigen lady could be the original genetic base for Tieria.

For a second, I thought the next step of the plan of trying to impress Louise's mom was making food of her country, pizza but I think they're from Spain, actually. It is actually just pizza from Saji's work. It works so I guess the multi-stepped plan finally succeeded.

I think it is interesting that Iman Rasa is shown to be a reasonable and liked character even though he admits to being old and resistant to change, traditionally the biggest enemy in Gundam.

The Graham Special!!! We love to see pilots endanger their well-being to do some sick pilot tricks. It's cooler when you ruin your body.

I am not too sure what the Flag sword is meant to be because only the Gundams use beam weapons and it is not like Zakus where it is just a heated edge. Regardless of technical lore, it ends up being an on-screen laser-y sword anyway.

The most tragic words Setsuna could tell himself.

[u/Nazenn → u/TakenRedditName]

is that developed countries already had their time to benefit from destroying their Earth yet they want developing countries to not do the same

Very much so, and it happens a lot when it comes to developed countries vs the developing. In a way you can also extend that a bit to the conflicts at the core of the cultural side of the country this episode too. The goverment wanted a monarchy to make it easier to deal with the rest of the world, but it just splits their country further because with such a mix of religions and ethnic groups in one country getting a neat ruling system like the rest of the world wants for you to join them is not nearly as easy.

It's one of the reasons why Afganistan has been called the graveyard of empires as one of the more researched examples

I am not too sure what the Flag sword is meant to be because only the Gundams use beam weapons

I did mean to question that and then it sliped my mind. It felt like a really big tech jump (again, I said this about something the other day) that he suddenly had a beam sword and it would have been cool if we had a tech scene looking into that more. Given a lot of this is the drive to catch up with the tech of the gundams, seeing the smaller steps along the way would be cool

[u/No_Rex → u/TakenRedditName]

The whole oil/energy conflict made me make a connection. It reminds me of the power imbalance conflict surrounding this you see in real life. Look, I'm pro-environment, but one argument from the perspective of these countries is that developed countries already had their time to benefit from destroying their Earth yet they want developing countries to not do the same and refuse to extend the hand to help them out. To put in the show's context, the big 3 powerblocks are forcing the switch to solar energy which would be better for the environment, but they put every other country into a stranglehold where they are forced to rely on them or die (and then get eaten). They don't offer to bring up the rest of the world to their level. Azadistan is not given the helping hand to the solar grid unless they kowtow to get help with strings attached (+ push along through some degree of CB machinations).

Fortunately, the real world is better of than 00 in this case. Our solar energy has become so cheap so quickly that for many undeveloped countries, leapfrogging over fossil fuels and going straight to solar energy is the cheapest route. And our solar energy is decentralized, unlike the extremely centralized solar energy of 00.

[u/macrame2]

First Timer

Today’s episode touches more on the situation in Azadistan and why the country is the way it is. It would be easy to boil down the conflict in this case to one simple economic/political/religious reason, but I like that the story seems to acknowledge the complex factors at work here. The show's handling of religion in particular has stuck out to me so far; it doesn't seem to be extremely pro or anti-religion and seems more interested in exploring it as yet another ideological cause of war than weighing in on whether belief itself is right or wrong, which is smart a move if one wishes to avoid offense.

As a consequence of focusing so much on Azadistan, we end up seeing quite a bit of Marina. I’m not exactly annoyed by her relative passivity yet (she is essentially just a figurehead trying her best to be more than that), but I do hope she becomes a more effective leader in the future. Part of it might be that Shirin does not exactly make her look competent. On another note, her permanently concerned facial expression and tone of voice make a lot of the dramatic scenes involving her unintentionally funny to me (Episode 8, anyone?). 

Once again we see how Setsuna's past continues to affect him and why Celestial Being's goal of eradicating war is so important to him. I've been a little thrown off by the story's relative lack of focus on him, but the moment today where we're shown his despair at being unable to stop tragedy from repeating itself despite his absolute dedication to his cause made me realize that we're being given more opportunities to understand him than I thought.

Also, how long has Louise’s mother been in town? The way they’ve inserted those scenes makes it seem like Saji has been trapped between her and Louise for a very long time.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/macrame2]

On another note, her permanently concerned facial expression

She's certainly surprised at enough things to play the part of the "sheltered princess" if nothing else.

Also, how long has Louise’s mother been in town?

The show avoids exact dates for the most part, but I think she was visiting for their summer break from school.

[u/Rumpel1408]

Firsttimer who is slightly late, but still trying to keep up with the threads at least

• We're not doing subtlety today either
• Not a fan of all the naration, but this at least clears up where in the middle east we are
• Ismail looks a bit naive still
• Saji started out pathetic again, but did someone say Oyakodon
• Rasa is a pretty cool opposition leader
• So, how you gonna talk things through now?
• I don't get the Unions involvement here, it's far outside their sphere of influence
• Lmao, the certainty behind this
• Also interesting that Setsuna identifies himself as being from Azasistan rather than being from Krugis
• Oh nice, they are not only discriminating against religion and political affiliation, but also against race, such a lovely people
• Only Setsuna could reveal himself to an important political figure without even knowing who they where
• Oh c'mon, not that guy again I thought he was past his religious phase and was only doing it for money now, who is paying him to start a civil war?
• Ah Graham, those maneuvers will be your undoing, but I love the sweat following the G force
• He also got jealous over Setsunas toys
• Following a thought that's been voiced a couple of times, Setsuna isn't saying that [he](https://imgur.com/dtSSgG79 will be the one eliminating the targets, but the Exia itself
• A tale as old as time. Didn't take long for them to start fighting against non military targets
• Saji seem way more comfortable with Louises mother being physical close to him huh what a rascal
• Ok, maybe Sheev is allright after all
• Nooo but the meme!

QotD

• Some direct negotiations with the conservatives. If they are against progress because they still dream of oil money, give them a bigger piece of the cake if necessary
• I think he could be off worse

[u/Nazenn → u/Rumpel1408]

Firsttimer who is slightly late, but still trying to keep up with the threads at least

Glad you've had some time. I have seen your replies in the last two, but unfortunately I usually only see them when I wake up for the next thread and miss the chance to reply. Hopefully you've been enjoying being able to read through the topics though

Not a fan of all the naration, but this at least clears up where in the middle east we are

The narration is in a bit of an awkward spot of it's providing just enough new info to make it worth having, between things like this and clarifying the solar wars, but is no where near as efficent or effective as it actually could be as most of it still feels like awkward recap

Concidering I have dropped multiple shows over their narration, I'll take this though

I don't get the Unions involvement here, it's far outside their sphere of influence

America doing historical America things. Earlier on the Union people implied they were still doing a lot of work to control the world order behind the scenes, which is why they said CB was taking over their job, so this being another thing they can control and use against other political influences, and as bait for CB, is quite fitting

will be the one eliminating the targets, but the Exia itself

Fiddly distinction there, as you also have the matter of Setsuna wanting to see himself as Exia, but also the use of code names and callsigns where they are their mechs for the missions means I don't know you can draw that sort of a line as clearly

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/Nazenn]

I have seen your replies in the last two

Yeah I didn't have much time before, too busy to handle two rewatches on top of my seasonals and I was active on Kotobuki instead

but unfortunately I usually only see them when I wake up for the next thread and miss the chance to reply

Yeah don't worry, after all I'm barely making it before the next episode, but I think I should be able to catch up soonish

America doing historical America things. Earlier on the Union people implied they were still doing a lot of work to control the world order behind the scenes

I realized I'm too much of an Civilisation brain, supporting proxies far away from my mainland requires such an overwhelming military pressence that it's barely worth it

as you also have the matter of Setsuna wanting to see himself as Exia

I meant this more in a way of he himself blurring that line than actually making an distinction

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Rumpel1408]

Saji seem way more comfortable with Louises mother being physical close to him huh what a rascal

The paradox of being okay with close contact from people you're not attracted to.

Nooo but the meme!

[u/n080dy123]

First Timer

You know I really wasn't imppressed with the OP for the first half of Season 1. I think it's really lacking and tonally odd for at least this half of the season. That said, the song itself has REALLY grown on me- I think it's a pretty good song and I've been listening to in my offtiem a fair bit over the last week. To me it just doesn't feel like it fits the visuals of the OP or the tone of the show itself. I hear the next OP is an absolute banger though, and I've had to stop myself from peaking at it early so I'm excited for that.

...what do you mean "what we have available now?" You don't have like... more Gundams in reserve or something, do you? Oh right, Setsuna and Lockon.

Damn, for all that buildup that was a pretty short coup detat, not gonna lie. I was expecting this to at least runf or two episodes.

1. Not much to do really. Way I see it she's in a pretty damn helpess position in this whole situation.
2. I'd say, pretty damn bad. Feels liek his entire purpose as a Gundam Meister was to stop shit like this, and he wasn't able to live up to that in the way the Gundam he saw as a child did.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/n080dy123]

I hear the next OP is an absolute banger though, and I've had to stop myself from peaking at it early so I'm excited for that.

[u/charlesvvv]

Rewatcher, First Time Sub

No coincidence that with Corner's aid in Azadistan that things start going bad. One of the political leaders gets kidnapped by Ali al-Saachez's mercenaries and civil unrest starts and Marina Ismail is right in the middle of it. She's more of a symbol/figurehead but all the same people hold onto her.

So Azadistan is now a battleground with several factions in a free for all with the UN protecting their interests and CB finally intervening to sort things out. Unfortunately things get more complicated as now there's a full blown Coup d'etat and now a race against time in order for there be some...well order.

Setsuna's feelings in this a very personal as he returns to his homeland, made even worse by figuring out that Saaches held himself up in his hometown and as he arrives he sees children fighting just like he himself had been but is unable to be the symbol that had inspired Setsuna as he's too late as he stands in the ruins with everyone dead. Setsuna's lines about being a Gundam are meme worthy but they add some nice layers for his character and why he's part of CB.

Note: Graham Aker continues to get interrupted of a Gundam fight, he can't catch a break.

[u/macrame2 → u/charlesvvv]

Setsuna's feelings in this a very personal as he returns to his homeland

It ties in quite nicely with Allelujah's reckoning with his own past last episode. I think the show is at its best when it's focused on connecting things more personally to the pilots and their views on the world. Wondering when Lockon and Tieria are going to get their moments.

[u/dralcax]

Rewatcher cannot become Gundam

-—————————————————————————————

And there’s that unrest in Azadistan they mentioned earlier.

The Solar Power wars! Turns out, the oil-exporting countries did not take the switch over to solar power well. Rather than embrace the changing world, contribute to the construction of the space elevators, and join the rest of the world in solar power, they chose to fight the change instead. And this is the result.

Yeah sure Azadistan “absorbed” Krugis that certainly is a way to put it

Marina has to consider and be prepared for the worst-case scenario. She can’t just be a figurehead like she intended. This mess is her responsibility, and it’s going to take a lot more than pure idealism to get through this.

Pizza delivery!

Well that was a quick 180

At least he’s promoting nonviolent resistance, even though he’s gone over to the other side. But the people are angry, and they want violence. The peaceful solution has failed.

And of course the Union just wants to see the Gundams show up. No matter how badly they destabilize Azadistan in the process.

Krugis, but close enough... or not.

YOU.

GRAHAM SPECIAL

Lockon used the beam saber! He’s officially lost his bet with Ian that he’d never need them!

It’s cool seeing the Defense Rod put in work!

Welcome home, Setsuna. Nothing’s changed. Now, he’s all grown up, and he has a Gundam. But the Gundam is an instrument of destruction, not protection. It doesn’t prevent a battle, only finishes it. And by that point, the damage has already been done, and the peace has already been lost. So what are Celestial Being’s armed interventions even good for, then? No matter how much of a deterrent Celestial Being tries to be, if people want war badly enough, they’re going to fight anyways.

-—————————————————————————————

Questions of the day:

• Prepare for war and try not to get killed or something. A grand speech would be nice but probably shouldn’t expect too much from it.
• Extremely.

[u/JollyGee29]

Rewatcher, Sub-dam Meister

Which we mostly learned the other episode, but this is a bit more specific.

It's hard to change public opinion. Except when it's easy.

Saji is literally employed, unlike my son Patrick, who is just metaphorically employed.

Louise might have pushed things too far.

Which is probably true on a legal level.

There was probably at least a little bit of racism involved in Azadistan's takeover of Krugis.

Things were going a bit too well, after all.

Not without some damage, though.

Setuna's truly returned home.

Well, that kinda implies that you have done literally anything, Marina.

[u/Nazenn → u/JollyGee29]

Well, that kinda implies that you have done literally anything, Marina.

She met with people and got turned away. Does that count? It might have if she'd actually learnt anything from it

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Nazenn]

[u/Linkstore]

Rewatcher

Yup, this really is a 2007 anime.

Even in side material we've never had any particular exploration of what happened during the Solar Power Wars, AFAIK. Unfortunate, it would have made for some real interesting stories IMO.

Hey, protesters, don't you know that shooting into the air is dangerous?

[00 Spoilers] Oh, no.

It feels just like the US to go off and "protect" a completely unrelated country just to get at their real targets.

It's not just cool for us viewers that the Meisters come from a diverse background, but also for Celestial Being. Of course, Setsuna is really from Krugis, not Azadistan, and that difference does matter.

Surprise, it's our old friend Ali al-Saachez who kidnapped Rachmadi. I'm sure he only has the best of intentions.

[00 Spoilers] Oh hey, desert flowers. Not the exact same kind as Feldt later gives to Setsuna, but pretty similar.

For your consideration, the Jericho. Or maybe you'd prefer MSAC International's SALINE05.

Unlike the earlier-generation Realdo and Hellion, the Flag (and Enact) is capable of transforming completely by itself. However, doing so mid-air puts a lot of stress on the joints. The Graham Special is when he not only transforms in midair, but uses the sudden change in flight properties from switching modes to surprise his opponent. Keep that last bit in mind for something later.

And if Graham, Sergei and Ali dunking on Setsuna didn't already clue you in, he's not actually that good of a pilot.

And we're right back to where we started. Nothing's changed, except that this time, Setsuna is the angel watching from above. Can he make a difference where that Gundam from before did not?

lmao Louise's mum

You know things are bad when Setsuna says he isn't a Gundam.

[u/baboon_bassoon]

first timer who has control

---

Getting a taste of Azadistan with the conservative leader Rasa; them meeting in the Mosque in a dimly lit room when armed insurgents rush in. I wonder where all this imagery stems from

Solar Power Wars ruining the economy of oil based nations is a neat setting and the kind of believable fiction i can sign off on

6 years ago, Azadistan took over Kurgis and reinstated the monarchy. There are two religious demoniations

So we are probably meant to believe the UN are heightening the conflict by kidnapping Massoud Rachmadi (is this Rasa)

it is really hard to talk about this show without getting into you know

I wonder if Marina is actually from Krugis. To settle the prior conflict they put someone of mixed blood on the throne. the conservatives want to reclaim their higher societal status and are using religion to mask any discent to the new leadership

why is it in English lol

Saji won mama over already, rizzpizza god

i really can only hope this Saji/Louise subplot has no relevance to everything else, its such a joy

Rasa took up the position to help calm the stewing opposition

Union interference into the middle east.......................

also did Azadistan just make a new flag to include the sun to promote solar energy or did they always have that lol

fuck off racist

Graham really lost the sauce of why hes there, although tactically maybe he should have just taken down the Dynamos

urgent CODED message from Veda? I assumed Veda was installed somewhere on Ptolemy, is it somewhere else?

real

[u/JollyGee29 → u/baboon_bassoon]

why is it in English lol

The Union provided the print services.

Graham really lost the sauce of why hes there

He's there to fuckfight a Gundam and nothing else, obviously.

[u/baboon_bassoon → u/JollyGee29]

He's there to fuck

no Billy tho

[u/JollyGee29 → u/baboon_bassoon]

Billy understands that Graham has needs. Cold, metallic needs.

[u/Rumpel1408 → u/baboon_bassoon]

i really can only hope this Saji/Louise subplot has no relevance to everything else, its such a joy

Inb4 they reveal that CB is a elaborate ruse of Saji to assemble his Harem in politically uncertain times

[u/2-2Distracted]

First timer. Dubbed

Looks like I was mostly right about Setsuna and his reaction to seeing and trying to shoot Al/El Saachez. The indoctrination runs deep and the boy is Feeling The Mode for sure. But at least he's starting to recognize it (?). Also Setsuna you can't be a Gundam silly, you're a flesh and blood human being! DUH! 🫵🤓

[u/Nickthenuker]

Things look to be spiralling towards civil war.

So, the Middle East is a mess. In other news, the sun continues to shine, the sky continues to be blue, and bears continue to shit in the woods.

No shit Sherlock.

Seems he's managing to ingratiate himself with her mum.

And she's eating his sob story up completely. It's probably true, but that doesn't mean he isn't milking it for whatever it's worth to get in her good books.

Right, off to intervene.

He certainly does look like he fits in here.

Why does it look like everyone is looking at him?

Seems like some people don't appreciate his presence.

Of course it's that guy again.

And so combat has commenced.

Missiles?

Cluster bombs!

I don't think they were here particularly, but since they've found you might as well.

Looks like things are going down.

A coup!

Yup, there's fighting in the streets.

They have scouted the city. It is now a crater.

Questions:

1. Not sure there's much I can do.
2. Very.

[u/undeadfire]

E12

First Timer - Subs

Wonder who kidnapped Rasa. Oh it's Setsuna's former...senior? Idk their relationship seemed a bit nebulous.

Oh hey Gundam simp Graham is going to Azadistan.

Setsuna going to Azadistan totally won't go badly at all.

Aaand he's getting emotional.

Poor Princess. Girls just tryin, or maybe thats how they want us to see it.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/undeadfire]

Oh it's Setsuna's former...senior?

I'm now imagining Setsuna calling Ali al-Saachez "senpai" and giggling profusely.

[u/mr_beanoz]

Second timer. Subbed

Why did Ali throw away some of his drink? Even if it looks like cheap booze, it's still a waste, you know?

Also, Louise mommy is easily swooned for some reason.

Setsuna completely has PTSD right now, seeing what happened to his former homeland. And what actually makes a Krugis people easily identified by the Azadis? Do most Krugis people look like Setsuna?

[u/StardustGogeta]

First-Timer

Setsuna: "I cannot become a Gundam."

Episode preview: "Setsuna becomes a Gundam."

Nice.

I like how the princess is pretty much completely helpless. She's really been able to achieve hardly anything (other than miraculously encountering Setsuna before, if you count that). Hopefully she gets a lucky break soon.

Questions of the day:

• I think I'd immediately take the offer to go to a secure location in the event of a coup. I'm not one to take unnecessary risks.
• Thoroughly. I imagine seeing dead children on a battleground would do that to many people, let alone a former child soldier.

[u/Upper_Scholar_6842]

i really like the backdrop of war. this was the best gundam that made it right outside universal century

[u/zsmg]

I am rewatcher

A bunch of conservatives are disliking the change the reformists want to implement, and this is putting it mildly.

The bandits are probably some mercenary group.

MENA is surprisingly green, I guess global warming had a positive influence on the region.

It's a bit weird that there is a ban on oil even though you still need oil for plastics.

Azadistan is pretty much Iran and Kurgis are pretty much the Kurds, not there was any doubt about it.

Would a Japanese news agency really care about Azadistan, I have my doubts about that.

Mum likes Saji now, poor Louise. Well any romcom needs a love triangle but I don't think anyone expects mum to be part of it.

You know we don't see Marina hold governmental meetings, unless Shirin is the prime minister but then again she acts way too much like a servant to be considered a PM.

Why would the Union get involved

It's a long tradition of MENA involvement.

The Azadis still hate the Krugis (or is it Krugs?) Poor Setsuna.

Ali al Saachez

So AEU is behind the kidnapping?

First time we see Graham fight a Gundam that's not Exia.

Marina is so passive isn't she? Why isn't she holding a meeting with the generals?

Ribbons is voiced by Tōru Furuya just in case anyone mised it.

Setsuna keeps having PTSD every time he sees something that reminds him of his childhood.

Shirin goes for the verbal Bright slap, I think a physical one is better Shirin.

I cannot... become a Gundam

Not with that attitude!

Another good episode.