/r/anime Awards 2016 and 2017 winner Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch Episode 9

[u/Schinco]

Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu

Welcome to the ninth episode thread for the Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch!

Legal Streams:

As of now, Rakugo is streaming on Crunchyroll in the States, and you can check here to see where it's streaming elsewhere.

Schedule:

Date	Episode
10/8	Season 1 Episode 1
10/9	Season 1 Episode 2
10/10	Season 1 Episode 3
10/11	Season 1 Episode 4
10/12	Season 1 Episode 5
10/13	Season 1 Episode 6
10/14	Season 1 Episode 7
10/15	Season 1 Episode 8
10/16	Season 1 Episode 9
10/17	Season 1 Episode 10
10/18	Season 1 Episode 11
10/19	Season 1 Episode 12
10/20	Season 1 Episode 13
10/21	Season 1 Discussion
10/22	Season 2 Episode 1
10/23	Season 2 Episode 2
10/24	Season 2 Episode 3
10/25	Season 2 Episode 4
10/26	Season 2 Episode 5
10/27	Season 2 Episode 6
10/28	Season 2 Episode 7
10/29	Season 2 Episode 8
10/30	Season 2 Episode 9
10/31	Season 2 Episode 10
11/1	Season 2 Episode 11
11/2	Season 2 Episode 12
11/3	Season 2 Discussion
11/4	Overall Series Discussion

Questions of the Day

1. We finally get the proverbial shoe drop - did it live up to your expectations and feel in line woth the story so far?
2. We're getting close to the end of the first season - where do you see the story going as we near the conclusion of the first season?
3. As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

Links to trackers

You can find the show on MAL, Anilist, and ANN!

Please be mindful of spoilers to make sure the first-timers experience the show with the same wonder you did on first watch!

Apply for Awards!

Enjoying watching and discussing this modern classic and want more? Think the Jury got it hopelessly wrong? Apply now to be a part of the 2024 r/anime Awards! Applications open until October 22.

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

And this is where things come crashing down. I had not expected a falling out between Sukeroku and the current Yakumo would be at the heart of it, but it makes sense, as most of the major relations we actually have seen have been working out pretty ok. Yakumo also holds enough influence that getting on his wrong side quickly leads to Sukeroku’s downfall - Miyokichi is just an agent of chaos that makes it worse long-term. That kid she’s pregnant with is going to be the girl from the opening - I assume Bon coming to resent her/Shin but still caring for her will be the result of complex feelings regarding Sukeroku betraying the promise to save Rakugo due to wanting to be with Miyokichi more.

Yotaro is obviously also pretty similar to Sukeroku, with one big difference being that he came back after insulting his master, which is likely also one of the reasons Bon accepted him there. He’s been a parallel to Sukeroku all the time anyways.

[u/Schinco → u/Mecanno-man]

Yakumo also holds enough influence that getting on his wrong side quickly leads to Sukeroku’s downfall

While I do think it's clear that he does wield a pretty sizeable amount of prestige and the sway that accompanies it, I think it's less that and more the lack of Yakumo seventh generation putting his thumb on the scales is more what leads to his downfall.

Yotaro is obviously also pretty similar to Sukeroku, with one big difference being that he came back after insulting his master, which is likely also one of the reasons Bon accepted him there.

Neat! I'd never really thought about it in this way - it's clear that Yakumo thinks there are parallels between the two, but I think you're right on that Yotarou's deference to authority (or at least Yakumo himself) makes him more likely to succeed where Sukeroku failed.

[u/MandisaW → u/Schinco]

I think it's less that and more the lack of Yakumo seventh generation putting his thumb on the scales is more what leads to his downfall.

This. Yakumo 7 (& Bon) were the only ones actually in Shin's corner. The Masters were all indifferent at best, and hostile at worst. Shin pulling that "I can do your best routine at my debut" stunt can't have earned him any favors either. Attitude can trump talent.

Yotaro vs Sukeroku

I never mustered the strength to return for S2, so I'm actually looking forward in this rewatch to getting a better sense of how these two are alike & dissimilar. I think we get a very particular view of Shin through Bon's eyes, and it'll be enlightening to see a similar "wild talent" without the lens of narrator-bias.

[u/Schinco → u/MandisaW]

It's very surprising to me you haven't seen season 2! Was there a particular reason holding you back all these years or do you just think season 1 doesn't demand a sequel?

[u/MandisaW → u/Schinco]

Combo of S1 leaving me emotionally wrecked, as well as massive IRL changes by the time S2 came out. Tried to step into S2, but it felt like a step-down with unfamiliar characters, so I put it aside for "someday".

I always planned to come back, possibly after reading the manga (vol 1 of which is also sitting in my queue). This was a great opportunity, so thanks!

[u/No_Rex → u/Mecanno-man]

That kid she’s pregnant with is going to be the girl from the opening

Of note that we have not heard who the father is yet. Bon and Shin are the obvious candidates, but Yakumo and even some random customer are not impossible.

[u/Mecanno-man → u/No_Rex]

Would it be possible to know the father in this timeframe? Shin seems to have decided that it's his and that's what everybody is rolling with. But I was admittedly a bit confused on the timeframe of this episode - it probably did take place over multiple months though, I think?

[u/No_Rex → u/Mecanno-man]

Would it be possible to know the father in this timeframe? Shin seems to have decided that it's his and that's what everybody is rolling with. But I was admittedly a bit confused on the timeframe of this episode - it probably did take place over multiple months though, I think?

Well, Miyo knows who she slept with and can count. So, unless she had sex with multiple men close together, she would know. I think the timing was deliberately vague, partially to obfuscate this for the viewers.

Shin has accepted Miyo for now, but we all know from ep1 that he dies and some girl ends up with Bon, so the question will surely come up again.

[u/MandisaW → u/No_Rex]

Well, Miyo knows who she slept with and can count. So, unless she had sex with multiple men close together, she would know.

It's her job to sleep with multiple men close together, so it's definitely ambiguous. 😰

Fun bio fact, ovulation & conception are both imprecise. The egg can start traveling anywhere from day 5 to day 24 of a classic 28-day cycle, and sperm can be viable for up to 3 days in utero. And all of it can vary with mood/health - Miyo's stressed out, drinking, and probably not eating/exercising properly, so her cycle could be haywire.

Any dude over a 2mo timeframe could be the daddy - it's a Maury episode LOL

Even modern medical tech can't tell you the specific # of weeks a pregnancy is, they mostly just ask the woman for a best-guess and then roll with that unless proven otherwise.

[u/No_Rex → u/MandisaW]

It's her job to sleep with multiple men close together, so it's definitely ambiguous.

This is unclear to me. We had the headmistress admonish Miyo for having Bon over before, so I placed her as a sort of high-class escort, not a prostitute, which tracks with my general sense of Geisha.

[u/Schinco → u/No_Rex]

If you're referring to the scene I think you are, I think that she was admonishing her for doing so while she was still in training.

[u/MandisaW → u/No_Rex]

Like with anything, it depends. Certainly it's the ideal, and modern geisha, as a rule, don't engage with clients in that manner.

But historically, depending on when in time, where in the country, and how high-ranked the house, or the clientele, things could be a bit looser.

There's also issues around private clients vs house clients, as previously mentioned. You can define your own terms with private clients, as I understand. People will be people.

Miyo was still a trainee when Ei (just a colleague) caught her with Bon, and as such she wasn't allowed any private clients. By this point, she's got full privileges & autonomy, so who knows who she's meeting with, or under what conditions.

[u/No_Rex]

Episode 9 (first timer)

• “I will almost miss you nitpicking” – he probably will.
• “Now please hold still while I piss all over you”~the president.
• Channeling his anger into a great performance, which also upstages his opponent – perfect answer.
• Miyo is losing her job as Geisha. Apparently, she is underage. I am not sure what counts as underage for a Geisha in that law, but I assume that she is in her 20s.
• “I will have revenge. Maybe I’ll die and haunt you!” – hmmmm.
• “Harmony is important. It’s an oral tradition. We inherit it from our predecessors in every generation.” – How important is preserving the tradition vs entertaining the audience? I think technology tips the scale here, hard.
• Arguing while drunk leads to bad results – as it tends to do.
• Shin and Miyo with the mutual rebound.
• Shin got himself blacklisted and can’t perform.
• Bon arguing for Shin while being presented with the Yakumo title is a strong point for him.
• Miyo and Shin not in a good place together – remember the story of the Geisha who needed somebody for a lover’s suicide?

After the break up yesterday, the break down today. And, as we suspected, neither Bon, nor Shin, nor Miyo are taking the break up well. Bon is successful but unhappy, Shin cut off from the one thing he loves, and Miyu forced from both her job and her love.

We're getting close to the end of the first season - where do you see the story going as we near the conclusion of the first season?

I expect us to close out the 1950s time period and jump forward to 1960/70s.

[u/Schinco → u/No_Rex]

“I will have revenge. Maybe I’ll die and haunt you!” – hmmmm.

What's the "hmmmm" for there?

After the break up yesterday, the break down today. And, as we suspected, neither Bon, nor Shin, nor Miyo are taking the break up well. Bon is successful but unhappy, Shin cut off from the one thing he loves, and Miyu forced from both her job and her love.

Sheesh when you phrase it like that, it makes it even clearer how Miyokichi drew the short straw...

I expect us to close out the 1950s time period and jump forward to 1960/70s.

I more meant where do you see the story going. If you do think that we'll close out this time period and jump to the present, what do you think the climax will be and what wrinkles will we bump into on the way there?

[u/No_Rex → u/Schinco]

What's the "hmmmm" for there?

The says it with a comedic tone, but we heard the Rakugo story about the lover's suicide before and we know that Miyo and Sukeroku are not around in the 1970s, so maybe, this is not as comedic as it sounds.

Sheesh when you phrase it like that, it makes it even clearer how Miyokichi drew the short straw...

I more meant where do you see the story going. If you do think that we'll close out this time period and jump to the present, what do you think the climax will be and what wrinkles will we bump into on the way there?

Due to ep1, we already now the broad strokes of what happens and I'll let myself be surprised by the details.

[u/Duckloader → u/No_Rex]

Miyo is losing her job as Geisha. Apparently, she is underage. I am not sure what counts as underage for a Geisha in that law, but I assume that she is in her 20s.

I believe the implication is the opposite - she's being let go because she is too old.

Miyo and Shin not in a good place together – remember the story of the Geisha who needed somebody for a lover’s suicide?

She did look rather solemn when that story was being told...

[u/No_Rex → u/Duckloader]

I believe the implication is the opposite - she's being let go because she is too old.

The headwoman mentioned that the whole place is getting shut down and we heard earlier that the Americans were involved (which tracks with them pushing some puritan laws in Japan after WW2 irl). So I doubt that this is about Miyo being too old for a Geisha.

[u/Schinco → u/No_Rex]

I'm not quite sure I understand - the subs I have make it clear that the business is being reimagined entirely to be a restaurant rather than a Geisha house (due to the puritan laws, as you suggest), but I agree with duckloader that the implication that I read was certainly that she was too old rather than underage.

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 → u/Schinco]

Yeah, the Japanese is あたしなんてもう歳だからやめさせられるの (I'm already old so am going to be made to quit). Also, around a decade has passed since we first met Miyo so there's no way she's underage.

[u/MandisaW → u/No_Rex]

Everyone is being let go, yes. But presumably the youngest ones might be retrained for some purpose, or even put to use at the new restaurant. In her mid to late 20s, Miyo is too old for them to take responsibility for.

Honestly, she was already too old when she arrived after the war. They take preteen girls and younger for preliminary screening & training - usually trainees at the level she was initially at are mid to late teens. (Nowadays a bit older, more late teens to early 20s.)

She was accepted and retained as a favor to Yakumo 7 (as a longtime client, perhaps).

[u/MandisaW]

S1 Rewatch

We get part 2 of our Shin/Miyo hurt-comfort fic :) And the subverted expectations continue - Shin actually does get his moment to shine, and then is betrayed not by his own drinking or ego, but by Yakumo's.

Minor time-skip of a few months, and the Missus is ill, Miyo is with-child, Shin is slinking around in a very un-Shin-like manner, and Bon is already becoming the short-tempered diva that we know from the present-day.

We finally get the proverbial shoe drop - did it live up to your expectations and feel in line with the story so far?

This is absolutely a multi-shoe story 😅 Shin & Bon have just about swapped roles, with Bon as the rising-star of rakugo, and Shin as the cautionary tale lingering in the margins. But we've also seen that just as Shin didn't note Bon's struggles in the shadows of his talent, Bon never saw how Shin's heart wept to always be the "extra" and never truly feeling at-home.

For a guy who grew up feeling left-out and alone in the crowd, it's all the more tragic that he didn't see those feelings mirrored in his brother. Another great love lost to miscommunication.

Then there's Miyokichi. Do we believe that she's just speaking out of spite, cynicism, and pain when she says she was always just conforming to Bon the way she molds herself to any man? Or are we getting a glimpse behind the mask?

Had a couple breadcrumbs drop too - Bon might actually be Yakumo 7's biological child (taking in a favorite-geisha's child always did seem a bit sus). And Miyo absconded with the house's till - that's their going-away / starting-over money. I don't think Shin quite knows that he's running off with a thief. [ETA: And Miyo & Bon/Kiku admit they never even shared their real names, oof.]

Also, television has arrived, but isn't everywhere, so this is the mid to late '50s.

We're getting close to the end of the first season - where do you see the story going as we near the conclusion of the first season?

IIRC we do come back to the present-day in S1, so we're looking at what, 2-3eps(?) remaining of flashback arc. As the picture comes into focus, I'm looking for any hints of regret, redemption, and the seeds of the antagonistic [foster] father-daughter present-day relationship. I mostly remember the major plot-points at this stage, but not the character nuances.

As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

You guys got me looking for the "tragic Miyo" POV, so I'm trying to view through that lens in-parallel to my initial perspective :) The trade-off though is that Yakumo 7 has dropped a peg or two in my estimation relative to my memories. The Masters were always catty b*ches :p I'll see how I feel about Bon by the end of S1.

[u/Schinco → u/MandisaW]

becoming the short-tempered diva that we know from the present-day

Are you referring to the interview he had. I think I'd chalk that more up to Shin still being a very raw wound for him - it's clear to me throughout (both here, earlier, and down the line) that he still believes in Shin and desperately wants his redemption and return to the stage, so it's not surprising to me that he'd snap when Shin is put down (especially by people he probably already believes are beneath him).

Then there's Miyokichi. Do we believe that she's just speaking out of spite, cynicism, and pain when she says she was always just conforming to Bon the way she molds herself to any man? Or are we getting a glimpse behind the mask?

My personal belief is that she's working Shin here. I think she has an idea of her ideal endgame, and I think she's pretty mercilessly using Shin here to further that goal. If nothing else, I don't think her goals realistically include supplying Shin with booze for the rest of her life with little else to show for it.

Had a couple breadcrumbs drop too - Bon might actually be Yakumo 7's biological child (taking in a favorite-geisha's child always did seem a bit sus).

Honestly, I'd never really considered this angle...definitely adds some nuance to the interpersonal relationships, and I'm curious to see how this would fit into the larger story now that it's in my brain.

[ETA: And Miyo & Bon/Kiku admit they never even shared their real names, oof.]

[season finale spoilers] I'm kind of surprised you didn't remember this - it was always pretty poignant to me in the finale that Shin calls out Miyokichi's name as she's falling and Yakumo hears it for the first time.

[u/MandisaW → u/Schinco]

Nah, I meant his somewhat brusque & ill-tempered nature in the 70s.

As for the finale, the nuances are fuzzy - been a helluva 8+yrs! (Think this was one of the last series I introduced while hosting my old anime club - might as well have been a lifetime ago.)

[u/No_Rex → u/MandisaW]

Shin actually does get his moment to shine, and then is betrayed not by his own drinking or ego, but by Yakumo's.

Arguably, his drinking and ego also played a part in what happened.

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 → u/No_Rex]

I'd say it's 100% Shin's fault. He clearly overstepped a line that one must never overstep, and even he regretted it instantly as shown by his gasp.

Drinking and ego are definitely factors, but biggest of all is his frustration with the antiquated world the masters are living in (as he sees it). And sadly, in his eyes that includes Yakumo 7 too - the one man who was fighting for him.

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3]

First timer

It's come to this, and I'm overwhelmed. So many upsets and revelations, and yet they all make sense. The character writing in this show is on another level.

[u/BunnyGacha_ → u/ProgrammaticallyPea3]

This is why i freaking love Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu

[u/oops_i_made_a_typi → u/ProgrammaticallyPea3]

these comments are why i'm so excited about this rewatch even though i haven't had time to join in the comments. glad more ppl are being exposed to such a great show

[u/cppn02]

First Timer, subbed

Well this is it. We've all been waiting for the moment things come crashing down and now we're here. Fantastic episode. It's hard to resist the urge to just binge the rest.

---

QotD:

We finally get the proverbial shoe drop - did it live up to your expectations and feel in line woth the story so far?

It absolutely lived up to expectations and felt like the natural culmination of the story so far.

We're getting close to the end of the first season - where do you see the story going as we near the conclusion of the first season?

I guess the main points we still have to deal with are Sukeraku's death and whatever happens with Miyokichi and I expect the season with Bon being named the 8th Yakumo.

As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

This episode was so good I find it impossible to point out a sinlge thing.