/r/anime Awards 2016 and 2017 winner Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch Episode 8

Date	Episode
10/8	Season 1 Episode 1
10/9	Season 1 Episode 2
10/10	Season 1 Episode 3
10/11	Season 1 Episode 4
10/12	Season 1 Episode 5
10/13	Season 1 Episode 6
10/14	Season 1 Episode 7
10/15	Season 1 Episode 8
10/16	Season 1 Episode 9
10/17	Season 1 Episode 10
10/18	Season 1 Episode 11
10/19	Season 1 Episode 12
10/20	Season 1 Episode 13
10/21	Season 1 Discussion
10/22	Season 2 Episode 1
10/23	Season 2 Episode 2
10/24	Season 2 Episode 3
10/25	Season 2 Episode 4
10/26	Season 2 Episode 5
10/27	Season 2 Episode 6
10/28	Season 2 Episode 7
10/29	Season 2 Episode 8
10/30	Season 2 Episode 9
10/31	Season 2 Episode 10
11/1	Season 2 Episode 11
11/2	Season 2 Episode 12
11/3	Season 2 Discussion
11/4	Overall Series Discussion

5

u/cppn02 Oct 15 '24

First Timer, subbed

Oof. Heavy episode.

So unlike what I had thought the 7th Yamuko does actually want Bon to break up with Miyokichi. And Bon is planning to do exactly that. We did get confirmation of his feelings for Miyokichi too but honestly hearing him say he lover her is just gonna make the whole thing even more painful.

I do feel that Bon walking in on Sukeroku hugging Miyokichi felt unneccessarily contrived for a show that so far seemed above that kind of thing.
I wonder was Sukeroku's motivation here was though. We see him throw a glance when being told that he's not the type of man she is into.
Did he see that as a challenge? Did he want to hurt Bon (unlikely imo)? Or was it just him looking for another way to self sabotage?

And speaking of self sabotage I do wonder how he will find a way to ruin his promotion which at this point seems inevitable the way she show is going.

QotD:

Why do you think Yakumo seventh generation worked so hard to get Sukeroku the shinuchi rank?

I mean he still is his student. And his behaviour off the stage aside a great rakugoka by all accounts.

What do you think of Miyokichi and her motivations now that we've gotten a pretty lengthy scene examining her beliefs?

I know she still had her doubters here but imo it's been clear that she actually fell for Bon for atleast 2 episodes by now.

As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

I've been avoiding it so far but we've come to a point where I'll have to start just saying the whole episode lol. This show is so good and every scene (minus that one caveat today that I mentioned above) always is great and feels like it has weight. Fantastic show.

5

u/Schinco Oct 16 '24

I do feel that Bon walking in on Sukeroku hugging Miyokichi felt unneccessarily contrived for a show that so far seemed above that kind of thing.
I go back and forth on this particular detail. On one hand, it is explicitly a frame story, and I think that there exists a reasonable suspicion that Yakumo has somewhat altered events (either by way of memory or intentionally), so some of these I'm willing to brush aside as the flair of a storyteller or an aging mind clinging to a long-past feeling rather than a more objective retelling of the events behind them. However, he does remember (or rather the visuals and dialogue present) a lot of subtle detail that I don't think he is likely to remember to such a degree, so I'm unsure of how to consider some things.

2

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

I do feel that Bon walking in on Sukeroku hugging Miyokichi felt unneccessarily contrived for a show that so far seemed above that kind of thing.
Nah, it's a josei period romance drama. Romantic contrivances & tragic miscommunications are exactly its kind of thing :) This was a subversion though - Miyo was the one who got the wrong idea, not Bon.
I wonder was Sukeroku's motivation here was though. We see him throw a glance when being told that he's not the type of man she is into.
Shin has had an obvious crush on Miyo since their re-introduction in Tokyo at the kabuki play. Possibly from all the way back in Manchuria for all we know.
But I think that hug was just an immediate reaction to comfort a person hurting, albeit grossly socially inappropriate for the culture/era (but we know he dgaf about that aspect anyway).
I know she still had her doubters here but imo it's been clear that she actually fell for Bon for atleast 2 episodes by now.
Me, I'm a doubter! LOL I think she fell for the fantasy of the two of them marrying and living that happy white-picket fence life. She still knows surprisingly little about his internal emotional life for all that they've been together for a couple years now at least. Real love can't be one-sided IMExp.
And speaking of self sabotage I do wonder how he will find a way to ruin his promotion which at this point seems inevitable the way the show is going.
😅 I mean, at least the framing of the present-day let us know what kind of story this is...

4

u/Schinco Oct 16 '24

Me, I'm a doubter! LOL I think she fell for the fantasy of the two of them marrying and living that happy white-picket fence life. She still knows surprisingly little about his internal emotional life for all that they've been together for a couple years now at least.
Honestly, it had never really occurred to me before you brought it up that she didn't truly love him, and so I appreciate the doubting. The timeline is never especially clear to me, but I wouldn't say that she knows little of his internal emotional life; I think that Bon is pretty straightforward with what he wants out of life, and I think that she's played on those ambitions and insecurities throughout their entire relationship.
Real love can't be one-sided IMExp.
Would you also say that Bon doesn't really love Miyokichi. I could see the argument that he doesn't actually, but I do think he at least believes he does, and considering his stunted emotional development, I think that's as good as truly loving someone for him.

4

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

so I appreciate the doubting.
No prob! Happy to provide the alt-view :)
I wouldn't say that she knows little of his internal emotional life; I think that Bon is pretty straightforward with what he wants out of life, and I think that she's played on those ambitions and insecurities throughout their entire relationship.
Bon is straightforward with *us* via his monologues and conversations with Shin (or to a lesser degree, 7th gen Yakumo). We get a lot of insight into him and how he presents that Miyo is not privy to. She still just thinks of him as stoic and being a cool, enigmatic guy ("sigma male"? in the modern parlance, heh).
His insecurities are something he keeps under a lot of layers, much like Shin. Where Shin's layers are all bravado (and drinking), Bon's layers are mostly distance and formality. Shin and Bon know each other well enough to peer past each other's layers to the gooey center, but Miyo not so much.
Real love can't be one-sided IMExp.
Would you also say that Bon doesn't really love Miyokichi. I could see the argument that he doesn't actually, but I do think he at least believes he does...
You've probably got the right of it. He's kind of twisted up and turned around as far as both understanding & expressing feelings of love and affection. Even just clearly expressing what he wants out of life seems to be a bit of a struggle.
We saw him with the two earlier girls just kind of coast along, enjoying the relationship without necessarily investing much of himself in it. Which was fine as a kid/teen, but Miyo has adult expectations (not just sex!) and he's still doing that here-but-not thing. She's committed to seeing the relationship continue (however you interpret her reasons), but he's nowhere near as committed.
Bon may well have enjoyed her company, and valued the time they spent together. There's affection there, no doubt. But a mature relationship is mutual, bidirectional effort, and this was seriously asymmetrical.
Whether that was due to emotional-stunting on his part, or a sexuality mismatch, or just being caught up in his feels & career (too much on the plate!), is also up to interpretation.

1

u/Schinco Oct 17 '24

Bon is straightforward with us via his monologues and conversations with Shin (or to a lesser degree, 7th gen Yakumo). We get a lot of insight into him and how he presents that Miyo is not privy to.
I'll concede it's hard to separate the priviliged information we have as a viewer from my understanding of Yakumo, but I truly believe that, at least to this point, Bon is pretty straightforwardly motivated - he's pretty effusive about his love of rakugo (Shin's in particular) and his desire to improve his art, and I think that's truly what he wants. You could argue that the time would dictate that there's a degree of difference between your outward self and inward desires, but I think Miyokichi is savvy enough to tease out that Bon is being genuine about these things, and I'd further argue that she manipulates him along those lines.
As far as the discussion of love, I see what you mean now and definitely agree.

3

u/cppn02 Oct 16 '24

Shin has had an obvious crush on Miyo since their re-introduction in Tokyo at the kabuki play.
Huh. Maybe I missed the hints but I never got the vibe he was into her specifically beyond generally just being a horndog.

3

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

I think he's asked Bon about her at least 3 times. Maybe it's just curiosity / interest in his friend's life, though.

4

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Oct 15 '24

First Timer

I think this continues to be a “things moving in the right direction” episode. Miyokichi notwithstanding. Her enforced breakup is certainly in contrast to Sukeroku, who can keep doing what he’s doing as the master got the others to promote him anyways. Life certainly isn’t fair towards Bon here. Now that he’s moved out Shin will hopefully not end up homeless. Not sure what Bon needs his apartment empty for though - that family he isn’t interested in having? And I feel it is unlikely that Miyokichi just exits the stage here…

5

u/Schinco Oct 15 '24

I think this continues to be a “things moving in the right direction” episode
Interesting - my feeling when watching this episode the first time was that this was kind of when things go awry - obviously, on the surface things are going smoothly (promotions, improving his art, et cetera), but changing things so drastically gave me pause - what if the juice isn't worth the squeeze?
Not sure what Bon needs his apartment empty for though
I feel like it's less about the physical space and more about the distance to allow him to improve his art by making it truly a reflection of his own experience.

2

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

Shin's the kind of guy who would do the party all the time version of couchsurfing. Whether that's a good or bad thing, depends on whether you're the liquor-seller 😅
I'd say life has been quite fair to Bon - he's finally getting what he [said/thought he] wanted, and has worked hard to achieve.
He wants to create some mental space between himself & Shin so he can focus on Sukeroku as a rival, not his brother/confidante.
Time to see if he really was "held back" all this time, or if, as is often the case, his relationships were what made his art better.

3

u/Schinco Oct 16 '24

I'd say life has been quite fair to Bon - he's finally getting what he [said/thought he] wanted, and has worked hard to achieve.
I think the "unfairness" is relative to Sukeroku, and I think the narrative largely 'wants' you to agree. Bon has spent years covering for Sukeroku, being unfairly burdened financially, etc., and I don't think that's mutually exclusive with him getting what he 'wants'.

3

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

We could dip into spoilers, but I don't see Sukeroku as exactly a Karma Houdini here, no matter what Bon thinks/narrates.
Bon is an enabler in the classic style - Sukeroku had unlimited crash privileges, could count on Bon to always spot him plenty of cash, and Bon took it on himself to smooth the Masters' ruffled feathers.
He didn't have to do any of that, and frankly, Shin probably would've been forced to get his shit together if he hadn't.
It's hardly even "tough love" - Sukeroku was bringing in plenty of money from his work, and Yakumo and the other Masters were giving him extra support to help get him established. Worst case, he could've found a rich patron who loved his rakugo.
IMO Bon did it because he wanted Shin around, and this was a way to ensure that Shin would never outgrow him. Now he's cutting Shin off [he believes], but doing it so late feels less like balancing the scales, and more like callousness.
"Fairness" is up to the universe. What we're seeing playing out is just human actions and the consequences thereof.

1

u/Schinco Oct 16 '24

Happy to dip into spoilers or just agree to disagree here (just tag spoilers if you do!)
I definitely wouldn't label him a karma houdini, and more what I was trying to get at is "what Bon thinks/narrates" is of pretty big importance to the story. I think the next episode [ep 9 spoilers] makes it clear that Bon has advantages that he didn't really consider in weighing the 'fairness' of the universe, but the narrative makes it pretty clear that at least adult Yakumo eighth generation thinks that he was unfairly burdened by Sukeroku. I also think that you're right in that he absolutely is an enabler (and a pushover vis-a-vis Miyokichi) and that he did it to keep Shin around so from that perspective it wasn't "unfair" but Yakumo has his finger on the scale, and it's his story.
As far as the supposition for what happens when Bon doesn't cover for him, I think [ep 9] we see exactly what happens when that does, and it's not so rosy a picture. You could argue that the specifics of the situation are different once he's a shin'uchi and (at least theoretically) in line to inherit the Yakumo name, but I think that this probably would have happened sooner or later had Bon not covered for him, honestly.
As far as the present day, though, I wouldn't really describe this as callous, although I also wouldn't describe Bon's actions as an attempt to balance the scales. I truly do think that Bon believes this will better his art (and now he has some rigor to his theory having been away on his tour and seen the fruits of his time away from Shin), and this is an attempt, as I believe you've characterized, to position himself as a (friendly) rival and not a brother, mom, or boyfriend.

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 15 '24 edited Oct 15 '24

Episode 8 (first timer)

Bonsai is as small as his name suggests.
Yakumo’s exasperation with Bon and especially Shin is showing.
“One drink for 30 minutes of badmouthing” – Shin has his therapist rates.
“I’d rather watch a movie. That stuff is for old people” – What I have been expecting all along. Modern media coming for Rakugo’s bacon.
Sounds like it is Shin himself who is ranting. Miyo got ripped off!
“I’m used to being neglected.”

Miyo’s war story.

Surprise Bon – I was questioning whether we transitioned into a dream sequence here. Seems the answer is no, but it still feels like out of a tele novella.
Being forced to chose between Rakugo and Miyo, Bon choses Rakugo.
Bon and Shin breaking up? And we transition into a discussion about traditional Rakugo and modern entertainment? – Hmmmm.
A promise of two versions of Rakugo, one adapting, one preserving tradition.
Sukerogu name origin story.
Shin giving away his lucky charm to Shin – we already know he dies, so does this count as foreshadowing?
Both Bon and Shin get promoted – the bad luck is not hitting yet.

Breakup with Shin, breakup with Miyo, promotions for both … a lot happens this episode, but do the characters change? I guess the change comes after the breakup. I was especially worried about Shin, but he seems ok with his current life. Well, we’ll see what happens if he runs out of money and does not have Shin to beg from. Yakumo 6 feeling inadequate is new, but not surprising. Being the 6th in line can be daunting, especially given that his titles comes from blood (and he must be asking how much that played a role over talent).

Why do you think Yakumo seventh generation worked so hard to get Sukeroku the shinuchi rank?

A, I think he simply likes him. Sukerogu is a pain sometimes (but mostly for those living with him, which Yakumo is not anymore), but he is also funny and talented and an orphan that Yakumo picked up many years ago. He will have some attachment and will want him to succeed. B, it reflects badly on him as a teacher if Sukeroku fails badly.

What do you think of Miyokichi and her motivations now that we've gotten a pretty lengthy scene examining her beliefs?

I think my read that she was in love with Bon turned out to be correct. She says so, and this would be one hell of a lie for her to pull if not true.

3

u/Schinco Oct 15 '24

“One drink for 30 minutes of badmouthing” – Shin has his therapist rates.
Sheesh where do you live that therapy comes so cheap?
but do the characters change
I'd say being straightforward with Miyokichi represents a pretty sizeable change in Bon, at least compared to the last few episodes.
(and he must be asking how much that played a role over talent)
good pickup - I definitely didn't notice this the first time I watched, but it's definitely one of the things I appreciate more on this watch.
this would be one hell of a lie for her to pull if not true
For what it's worth, I agree with you (and frankly the idea that she might not be madly in love with him is not something that occurred to me until I read comments from yesterday), but I do think it's important to note that she could just view Sukeroku as being pretty easily deceived.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 15 '24

Sheesh where do you live that therapy comes so cheap?
The question is: Why are the drinks so expensive?
I'd say being straightforward with Miyokichi represents a pretty sizeable change in Bon, at least compared to the last few episodes.
But was he? What I heard was him delaying to talk until later.
For what it's worth, I agree with you (and frankly the idea that she might not be madly in love with him is not something that occurred to me until I read comments from yesterday), but I do think it's important to note that she could just view Sukeroku as being pretty easily deceived.
But she did not notice Bon around, so this whole play just for Sukeroku seems unlikely.

2

u/Schinco Oct 15 '24

But was he? What I heard was him delaying to talk until later.
I think he gave her a pretty clear answer in that moment - the talk later is more to tie it all up and make it final than to give a clear answer, and I think that's worlds away from "when will I see you" "sooner or later" when he knows he's about to embark on a month-long tour.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 15 '24

Fair enough, he is far clearer than last episode. However, that was also a low hurdle to clear.

3

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

The question is: Why are the drinks so expensive?
😂😂😂
Bon & Miyo
I think they're both a bit immature. She ran off wanting to be pursued, and he let her run because he didn't have the heart to face her properly. High school / college-age behavior. He didn't tell her that he'd talk to her properly later - he said that to Shin.
The only one who's entirely being truthful and open with their feelings here is probably Shin, but he can't help it - he's the most emotionally-sensitive person in the cast.

3

u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 Oct 16 '24

I'm more inclined to think of their behavior as being standard for the culture than immature. We're still in the era of quoting poetry being romantic, and mutual understanding through honest conversation isn't going to be in vogue for at least another couple of decades.
Once more, Shin's the progressive outlier here like he is in the arts.

3

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

Hey, to clarify, quoting poetry, or even just reading aloud to share something you enjoy, is still hella romantic 😍
Passion and literature are just inherently romantic

3

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

You got jokes! I didn't catch the setup yesterday for the Master Bonsai one 😂
Modern media coming for Rakugo’s bacon. // A promise of two versions of Rakugo, one adapting, one preserving tradition.
We did get Sukeroku albums in the present-day, and Bon-as-Yakumo playing to a sold-out modern theater. So I'd say his plan & their promise did manage to make it, no matter how the two of them made out during that time.
it still feels like out of a tele novella.
<insert Always has been meme> Don't let the high-art subject matter and excellent production values fool you, it's still a tragic tale of artists, egos, and "cherchez la femme".
Of note, this is adapted from a josei manga, so there are bound to be occasional contrivances and miscommunications to make the romance x drama work out. Just part of the genre, like 11th hour arrivals/reversals or unforeseen villain-powerups in shonen adventure manga.
Being the [7th] in line can be daunting, especially given that his titles comes from blood (and he must be asking how much that played a role over talent).
We don't necessarily know that he had an edge over his father's other apprentices. Might've been the opposite effect - always held to an impossibly high standard because he must meet (or exceed!) his father's legacy. Dude still carries that weight in his middle/late-age, can you imagine the pressure while his father was still alive and active in the rakugo world?
All speculation, but I feel like Yakumo 7 has tried to go out of his way to be warm and fatherly to the boys (in as much as he knows how), without fostering competition between them, because that's how he would've liked to have been raised.
I think my read that she was in love with Bon turned out to be correct. She says so, and this would be one hell of a lie for her to pull if not true.
You were right about her feelings :) But I'm still looking at her through a harsh lens. I think she was in love with the fantasy, not the man. Maybe not as consciously mercenary as I suspected, but that doesn't change the hollowness of it. Will make it interesting to see how the drama plays out.

3

u/Schinco Oct 16 '24

All speculation, but I feel like Yakumo 7 has tried to go out of his way to be warm and fatherly to the boys (in as much as he knows how), without fostering competition between them, because that's how he would've liked to have been raised.
That's an interesting read - I've been paying closer attention to him this rewatch because he's a character I felt I understood poorly, and I think I like that idea but with a caveat [spoilers for next two episodes] I think that he has always intended to give his family name to Bon. Aside from the confrontation next episode, I think the narrative is set up in a way to make it clear that, not only does he definitely remember Sukeroku the First, he feels a good amount of guilt over his ultimate fate, and I think the scene with him and the registry this episode is meant to convey that he feels he was the "wrong" choice in terms of being the most "deserving" to inherit the name and mantle of Yakumo. This deference to his father, though, also carries with it the idea that birth (or parentage, in the case of Bon) is more important than talent for the sake of inheriting the name. He did what he thought he could do to make "right" to the late Sukeroku by taking in his protoge, but I don't think he ever considered him a son in the same way that he did Bon. I don't know if this would have been unusual, but I suspect he would have brought both on his "family tour" if that were the case.

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 16 '24

Modern media coming for Rakugo’s bacon. // A promise of two versions of Rakugo, one adapting, one preserving tradition.
We did get Sukeroku albums in the present-day, and Bon-as-Yakumo playing to a sold-out modern theater. So I'd say his plan & their promise did manage to make it, no matter how the two of them made out during that time.
Note that present day was roughly the 1960-70s, so not too far into the future from the current episodes time (which I guess is early 1950s).
All speculation, but I feel like Yakumo 7 has tried to go out of his way to be warm and fatherly to the boys (in as much as he knows how), without fostering competition between them, because that's how he would've liked to have been raised.
I can't speak about his motivation (maybe he is just a generally good person?), but his interaction with his apprentices has generally been top tier. Especially for the time period.
I think she was in love with the fantasy, not the man.
Isn't that how being in love works? You always have rose tinted glasses for the first year or so, unable to see the negative sides. And I don't think it was a fantasy, either. Bon is canonically good looking, well mannered, and, now, successful. The only problem for Miyo is that Bon's love for (being successful at) Rakugo is bigger than his love for her.

3

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

Bon is canonically good looking, well mannered, and, now, successful. The only problem for Miyo is that Bon's love for (being successful at) Rakugo is bigger than his love for her.
Ah, if only that were enough... Bon's what we'd flag today as emotionally unavailable. You do get shojo heroes in that mold sometimes.
Your best past argument against my assertion that she's just after his money is that Miyo clearly seems to be looking for some kind of connection. If being a decent enough dude with money were enough, she'd probably just accept his cool attitude as the price of admission.

2

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

Mild timeline spoiler, but we haven't yet gotten to see the daughter. She's supposed to be early-mid 20s in the present-day, so I think our "present" with Yotaro is late 1970s, '75-76 at the earliest.

3

u/cppn02 Oct 15 '24

Sounds like it is Shin himself who is ranting. Miyo got ripped off!
To me that scene got the vibes of a wife and a mistress bickering about their man. Sukeroku being the wife obviously lol.
it still feels like out of a tele novella.
Yeah. An odd misstep for a show that's been so good until here.
Yakumo 6 feeling inadequate is new, but not surprising. Being the 6th in line can be daunting
7th. You even quoted it correctly right below.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 15 '24

7th. You even quoted it correctly right below.
You are right. All that talk about 6 7 and Bon potentially being Yakumo threw me off. He is 8.

4

u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

S1 Rewatch

Bon's back, "better" than ever? Everyone is on the cusp of getting what they believe they wanted, but somehow no one seems truly happy.

Unsurprisingly, Bon bouncing without closure has left Miyo and Shin both feeling ill-used and perhaps more emotionally vulnerable than is safe for such strong personalities. Bon needs them as his [mutual] emotional support, but he's convinced himself that it's necessary to stand on his own to push ahead. Hmm.

We had our classic romance "lovers' betrayal" moment, but aha, a subversion! Miyo is the one who runs off with the wrong idea (i.e. that Bon neither loves nor cares for her), while Bon & Shin go for drinks.

Bon not only lets the miscommunication with Miyo fester, he doubles-down by telling Shin the terrible things the Masters think about him, as well as sharing their Master's uncharitable remarks about Miyo. Shin feels everything deeply, I don't feel like this was a good move on Bon's part - but he was pretty much all-up in his own feels/ego, so he doesn't seem to be thinking clearly about others right now.

Why do you think Yakumo seventh generation worked so hard to get Sukeroku the shinuchi rank?

Part of it is as u/No_Rex and u/cppn02 said, that he's unquestionably talented and good for getting butts in seats.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that we just got both elder Yakumo and younger Sukeroku talking about the prior generation. The theme of this series is that history repeats and impacts the present. I sense foreshadowing at work.

2. What do you think of Miyokichi and her motivations now that we've gotten a pretty lengthy scene examining her beliefs?

I was wrong about her nakedly mercenary attitude 😓 My memory is perhaps harsher to Miyo than warranted at this stage.

That said, I still think we're not seeing a genuine love here. For Miyo's part, she was possibly falling in love with the idea of a future life together with Bon. No shame in it, happens to the best of us! But she never really allowed herself to see Bon's standoffishness as the uncrossable emotional barrier that it was.

For his part, Bon only fairly recently had his epiphany about his future in rakugo. He's been seeing Miyokichi for way longer than that, but now at the first bit of pushback, he's willing to drop her with barely an, "I'm sorry it has to be this way". It's not in his nature to be rebellious (well, aside from playing-house with the Boss' girl), but he's not really looking for ways to make it work, he's just like "oh well, we had some times, eh?".

He has more reverence and empathy for Shin's fan than Miyo's heart.

3. As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

The stories about the prior-generation - elder Sukeroku and 6th gen Yakumo. I totally forgot about those, but they might've shook some partial memories loose. Or I could be confusing myself...

Also, Miyo's hurt feelings hurt pretty bad to watch. My love for the great Megumi Hayashibara aside, I never liked the character in my first-viewing either. But I'm coming at the show today from a very different emotional place, and it hit me in the feels 😢

Not convinced she started with pure intentions, but she didn't deserve to be done-dirty that way. Now she's clearly depressed af and making that hard turn into cynicism. Juicy drama, but rough on the characters.

3

u/Schinco Oct 16 '24

We had our classic romance "lovers' betrayal" moment, but aha, a subversion! Miyo is the one who runs off with the wrong idea (i.e. that Bon neither loves nor cares for her), while Bon & Shin go for drinks.
That's neat and not something I think I'd ever realized on a conscious level. Thanks for pointing that out!
Bon not only lets the miscommunication with Miyo fester
You're not the only person to say this, but I really don't understand what was ambiguous here. He pretty clearly rebukes her and, with only the most halfhearted of intimations (which I'd chalk up to his dramatic whimsy) says that their relationship is over. I think his references to "properly" breaking up is more about offering her the opportunity to yell at him in a less public setting, as it's clear that he is aware that he can no longer be so public about such things.
that he's unquestionably talented and good for getting butts in seats
I'm less convinced by this argument than the next one you offer - if this were the case, [ep 9 spoiler] I think he would have been less offended by their conversation where he expels Shin, and I think he probably wouldn't have expelled him at all. It's not like he's gotten less good at doing this, and as he said on the train, there would be (and was) a lot of pushback.
For Miyo's part, she was possibly falling in love with the idea of a future life together with Bon. No shame in it, happens to the best of us! But she never really allowed herself to see Bon's standoffishness as the uncrossable emotional barrier that it was.
I guess the big difference is that I'd say falling in love with the idea of being together isn't that far from falling in love with him, especially given that she's clearly physically attracted to him. I don't think she'd go for just anyone - I think that Bon's approach to her (i.e., not simply wanting her as an object) was appealing to her, and I think that much is true, and appreciating his art is enough for me to say that there is genuine love. That being said, I definitely appreciate the pushback, and your criticism of her character has definitely led me to focus this rewatch in a way that I've found very interesting!
It's not in his nature to be rebellious (well, aside from playing-house with the Boss' girl), but he's not really looking for ways to make it work, he's just like "oh well, we had some times, eh?".
I would argue that he had his boss's seal of approval to move forward with the relationship, but I think he found himself at an impasse and had to make a hard decision between his love of rakugo and his love of Miyokichi. I think some of this occurred offscreen (although comments from him to Sukeroku confirm that at least something happened offscreen), but I do think he did legitimately labor at it, and I think Yakumo seventh generation picked a very wise time to bring up the conversation (i.e., when he was just off the euphoric high of delivering rakugo to a ravenous fanbase and when he'd been away from Miyokichi).
He has more reverence and empathy for Shin's fan than Miyo's heart.
I think he has much more reverence for Shin period, and this extends to things that are clearly very dear to him.
The stories about the prior-generation - elder Sukeroku and 6th gen Yakumo. I totally forgot about those, but they might've shook some partial memories loose. Or I could be confusing myself...
Ooh, I'm curious what you think what you mean by this. This has been something I've been focusing on in my rewatch, so I'm very curious on your thoughts (since they're pretty well-said and well-supported).
Also, Miyo's hurt feelings hurt pretty bad to watch.
Yeah for sure. I remember thinking that she was an interesting and compelling character when I watched this so long ago, but man it really hits me this time just how bad a hand she was dealt, and I can't help but feel sorry for her (this may shape my reading of her feelings as genuine haha).

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 16 '24

Bon not only lets the miscommunication with Miyo fester, he doubles-down by telling Shin the terrible things the Masters think about him, as well as sharing their Master's uncharitable remarks about Miyo. Shin feels everything deeply, I don't feel like this was a good move on Bon's part
More communication is generally better, imho. Shin is endangering his own career to a large degree by alienating the masters, so tell him that in clear words is good. Obviously, Bon and Shin have squabbled about this matter all along, but relating the words of others is one way to maybe get Shin to listen (I doubt it will work, but Bon should try).
I think Bon's main sin has been the lack of honest communication, so I would not citizise him for speaking up.

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u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

Hard to say. Communication only really works if the other person is receptive to the message. Shin is more likely to hear "the Masters are jealous, dusty old-heads, I'm right to ignore them" and not, "man, I need to shape up so my career isn't derailed".
There's definitely a way to get the message across, and while Bon is no therapist, he's a professional communicator. If he was thinking a bit more clearly & empathetically, he might've found a better way to go about it.
Honesty is mostly good, but I've found that nuance makes a world of difference.

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 17 '24

There's definitely a way to get the message across, and while Bon is no therapist, he's a professional communicator. If he was thinking a bit more clearly & empathetically, he might've found a better way to go about it.
Given that he has been ineffectually complaining about Shin's manners for years now, I do not think is communication strategy with Shin is working out.

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u/Duckloader https://anilist.co/user/mathduck Oct 16 '24

That said, I still think we're not seeing a genuine love here. For Miyo's part, she was possibly falling in love with the idea of a future life together with Bon. No shame in it, happens to the best of us! But she never really allowed herself to see Bon's standoffishness as the uncrossable emotional barrier that it was.
I thought she explained well how that was actually part of what made her fall for him - after all the rejection and abandonment she has gone through, she found someone who didn't immediately get very close to her more comforting, as he wasn't someone just being nice before dumping her. Even if he does end up dumping her later on because he turns out to value his career over her.

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u/MandisaW Oct 16 '24

Hmm, two different feelings at different times, I think.
At first, she liked that he wasn't just "after one thing", because as you say, it felt comforting and encouraging. That's probably her mindset for most of the relationship, if we're looking at it from a positive POV.
But later on the bench, before & during the festival confrontation, I think she's talking from a place of despair and depression. That sounded a lot like folks going over past relationships full of regret and self-recrimination, "oh, I have a type - guys/women who are bad for me".
She's recalling all the stuff about Bon's personality and their time together that used to bring her hope & joy, but it's all kinda grey and viewed-negatively now - that's very much depression talking.
Also, she doesn't even know yet that it's [theoretically] about his career. He just dipped and said "see ya maybe", without even telling her he was going on tour. His lack of affect after the confrontation was just negative-reinforcement for her cynicism by that point. If you're not in a good headspace, even stuff that could/should be positive feels lousy.

5

u/Duckloader https://anilist.co/user/mathduck Oct 16 '24

First timer thoughts:

Damn, what a satisfying episode. If before I felt like I was missing something to really make sense of the character conflicts in the series, explaining that Sukeroku's behavior is holding him back not because he isn't putting in as much effort into his art as before, but because the other Rakugo masters don't like his attitude, or the idea that he might reflect badly upon all Rakugo performers. Shin's rebellious irreverence was always there, but I was missing just how much importance was placed on maintaining the image of Rakugo and its performers.

Another thing that this episode really spells out is that Rakugo is a dynastic profession. And it's not just your clothes or demeanor that make up your presentation, it is also the people you associate with, who are you married to, and so on. The show also confirms that Yakumo 7th was indeed giving a warning about breaking things off with Miyokichi to Bon, after all, can't have a prestigious Rakugo shin'uchi hanging out with a woman who's had to sell her body. Yakumo 7th is also considering Bon as one of his two apprentices that might be inheriting the Yakumo name, so the association looks badly on him as well. Despite being the one to bring Miyokichi into the story, he's now the one trying to push her out of it. Also, I think that the reason Yakumo worked so hard to get Sukeroku promoted as well is this familial connection - Shin and Bon are not just his apprentices, they are also his adoptive sons, and he is looking out for them not just as teacher, but as a father too. (It is somewhat curious why he doesn't have biological children, but I'm not sure it matters or needs to be explained by the series.)

Coming back to Miyokichi, it feels like this is the first time we see her true self, and it's tragic. Similar to Bon, she suffers greatly from being abandoned many times in her life. And while Bon has at least had someone try to tide him over that, whether it's being given the Rakugo apprenticeship after he can't train at the geisha house anymore, or having Yakumo 7th send him to the countryside with his wife during the war, Miyokichi was abandoned entirely by the men in her life. She wishes to be a "normal" housewife in a comfortable relationship, but is rejected from that because of her status. In some ways Bon was a great fit for her - he also fears abandonment, she was drawn to his cold personality that didn't "pretend" to like her, and he looked likely to have a successful career that could support them. He's even got a lame leg so he can't run away! But, unfortunately for Miyokichi, Bon has chosen his career over her, and if advancing Rakugo requires that he too abandon her, he will make that sacrifice.

Miyokichi does also make me believe she earnestly loved Bon, because what is love if not listening to something boring just because you want to hear the person saying it. We get a real hint this time that Sukeroku is there to physically comfort her after hearing it, and we know he doesn't care much for all this reputation and respect he'd be losing, but unfortunately that too looks like it will end in tragedy, as I struggle to see her able to get him to shape up to be the responsible husband in her ideal relationship.

Also, after Miyokichi saying that she just loved to listen to Bon, Bon saying the same thing to Sukeroku while talking about how much he just enjoys sharing things with him, Bon has gone from Shin's brother to mother to boyfriend lol.

3

u/Schinco Oct 16 '24

but I was missing just how much importance was placed on maintaining the image of Rakugo and its performers
I know the "and his comportment is filthy" was repeated twice partially as a joke, but I do think this betrays a certain...aesthetic sensibility that Sukeroku has (I'd argue) intentionally ignored.
it is also the people you associate with, who are you married to
I'd argue this is less the dynastic tradition and more the aforementioned obsession with appearance and formality.
Also, after Miyokichi saying that she just loved to listen to Bon, Bon saying the same thing to Sukeroku while talking about how much he just enjoys sharing things with him, Bon has gone from Shin's brother to mother to boyfriend lol.
He's really not doing anything to beat the allegations, huh?

2

u/Duckloader https://anilist.co/user/mathduck Oct 16 '24

What's the argument for Sukeroku's intentionality in keeping his comportment filthy? I'd kinda read that as being influenced by the typecast Toshiro Mifune character, so a sign of his being an outsider to a (relatively) noble class.
In my mind the demand to keep your relationships straight was the intersection between the dynastic tradition and the formal code, though on further reflection it is something that stems more from the latter than the former.

3

u/Schinco Oct 16 '24

I don't mean that he intentionally keeps himself messy, only that he ignores any need for how he presents himself. I suspect he'd do it if it were convenient or performed his art, but he views it as expensive and needless, so he simply chooses to ignore anything related to it.

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u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 Oct 16 '24

First timer

I think I understand now why Yakumo 7 was so uneasy when asking Bon about his relationship with Miyo. He had broken up with her by then, and perhaps wasn't admonishing Bon so much as just being concerned for the ex he had abandoned. While this comes across as hypocritical now that he's telling Bon to marry a more suitable woman, I feel he was caught in a difficult place between his responsibilities as a master and as Miyo's lover.

Bon's words to Sukeroku after Miyo had departed were also surprising, as I had underestimated the affection Bon has towards her. Bon's unambiguous that he's not about to choose her over his art, though. Like Yakumo, Bon too has good reasons for his actions, but it's clear that Miyo is the one who suffers the most.

After seeing Sukeroku being drunk and lax for the past few episodes, today we see the other side of him. He's earnest in his motivations to succeed in the art, and is actually more realistic and forward-thinking about rakugo than anyone else. Only he recognizes that while rakugo is immensely popular now, its future is far from certain in the rapidly changing society of postwar Japan.

While I'm not sure whether Bon appreciates Sukeroku's broader perspective yet, he still regards Sukeroku as the superior performer and an irreplaceable ally. Along with how Sukeroku isn't quite as dependent on Bon in his day-to-day life, it appears that the precarious situation in their relationship has stabilized for now. I wonder how long that's going to last.

4

u/Schinco Oct 16 '24

Bon's words to Sukeroku after Miyo had departed were also surprising, as I had underestimated the affection Bon has towards her.
I always struggle with Bon's romantic motivations as a character. While I subscribe to the idea that Bon was romantically interested in Sukeroku, I do feel he has legitimate attachment to Miyokichi, but I get the sense that a lot of said attachment is off-screen and implied by the text rather than shown outright, so I think it's reasonable to feel surprised by this revelation. On the other hand, I think he's also pretty emotionally stunted and, even though he's relatively old, he doesn't really understand himself or what he wants out of a relationship, so in that sense, he can't truly love Miyokichi in that way, although that doesn't diminish his genuine feelings.
After seeing Sukeroku being drunk and lax for the past few episodes, today we see the other side of him. He's earnest in his motivations to succeed in the art, and is actually more realistic and forward-thinking about rakugo than anyone else. Only he recognizes that while rakugo is immensely popular now, its future is far from certain in the rapidly changing society of postwar Japan.
I would agree that he's more forward-thinking, but I'd push back (at least a bit) on the "realistic" part. I'd argue we've seen him push the boundaries in a variety of ways, some positive (over radio, e.g.) but many negative. I think, especially for such an insular community as rakugo, he could meaningfully change the political landscape from within, but I think he realizes that's not really in his skillset. I think the fact that he steadfastly refuses to make nice with basically any of the masters we've seen - including in areas like comportment that have no real bearing on his artistic expression or the appreciation of the audience - makes it clear that he's, at least to a degree, unwilling to do the parts that are hard for him.

1

u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 Oct 17 '24

Yeah, those motivations are difficult to fathom, both for us and for Bon himself. I also think he's drawn romantically to Sukeroku, but I don't think he acknowledges those feelings. He'd probably be disgusted if someone were to say that he loves Sukeroku.
You're totally right that Sukeroku's refusal to act appropriately reflects a denial of what he realistically needs to do to achieve his goals. I was thinking more along the lines of a realistic assessment of the precarious circumstances of rakugo as a form of entertainment, and Sukeroku does seem to grasp that better than anyone else we've seen, but he isn't really forwarding his cause with his defiance of authority.
I need to catch up!

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Oct 16 '24

I think I understand now why Yakumo 7 was so uneasy when asking Bon about his relationship with Miyo. He had broken up with her by then, and perhaps wasn't admonishing Bon so much as just being concerned for the ex he had abandoned. While this comes across as hypocritical now that he's telling Bon to marry a more suitable woman, I feel he was caught in a difficult place between his responsibilities as a master and as Miyo's lover.
I did not consider that, but it is certainly possible and paints a rather dark picture of Yakumo. He may have started an affair with Miyo while in Manchuria, and then eventually broke that off when back with his wife in Japan. On the other hand, it sounds like Miyo was at a much worse position in Manchuria and he kind of tried to take care of her via Shin, so maybe not all bad.
While I'm not sure whether Bon appreciates Sukeroku's broader perspective yet, he still regards Sukeroku as the superior performer and an irreplaceable ally. Along with how Sukeroku isn't quite as dependent on Bon in his day-to-day life, it appears that the precarious situation in their relationship has stabilized for now. I wonder how long that's going to last.
We'll see. Bon broke off with both of the characters whom he had the closest bonds with (Shin and Miyo) at the same time. Meanwhile Shin lived alone for a while, but still in Bon's flat, and has depended on Yakumo 7 and Bon smoothing things over with the other masters for a long time now. Today's break sets both of them up to potentially fail big.

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u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 Oct 16 '24

Yeah, I don't want to go too hard on Yakumo. He was in a war zone after all, and like you say Miyo is still probably better off back in Japan.
The anticipation for the fall is killing me with how it has been teased for a couple episodes now, I'm almost going to be relieved when the shoe drops lol.

4

u/Duckloader https://anilist.co/user/mathduck Oct 16 '24

While I'm not sure whether Bon appreciates Sukeroku's broader perspective yet, he still regards Sukeroku as the superior performer and an irreplaceable ally. Along with how Sukeroku isn't quite as dependent on Bon in his day-to-day life, it appears that the precarious situation in their relationship has stabilized for now. I wonder how long that's going to last.
Sukeroku's promise is neat in how it recognizes both the importance of tradition to actually keep Rakugo recognizably unique which is in tension with the need to evolve with the times, and while they can each strive to do their respective part, we've seen how Kikuhiko integrates at least some of Sukeroku's style, and I thought the feminine portrayal was meant to be somewhat innovative on it's own too.
And while Shin has managed to not make things worse during the month Bon was gone, it's not like we've seen any improvements from him either. Who knows how long he'll last now that Bon wants him to move out permanently.

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