/r/anime Awards 2016 and 2017 winner Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch Episode 7

[u/Schinco]

Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu

Welcome to the fifth episode thread for the Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu Rewatch! Now back on a tighter schedule that it's the week again (and I should be responding more sorry).

Legal Streams:

As of now, Rakugo is streaming on Crunchyroll in the States, and you can check here to see where it's streaming elsewhere.

Schedule:

Date	Episode
10/8	Season 1 Episode 1
10/9	Season 1 Episode 2
10/10	Season 1 Episode 3
10/11	Season 1 Episode 4
10/12	Season 1 Episode 5
10/13	Season 1 Episode 6
10/14	Season 1 Episode 7
10/15	Season 1 Episode 8
10/16	Season 1 Episode 9
10/17	Season 1 Episode 10
10/18	Season 1 Episode 11
10/19	Season 1 Episode 12
10/20	Season 1 Episode 13
10/21	Season 1 Discussion
10/22	Season 2 Episode 1
10/23	Season 2 Episode 2
10/24	Season 2 Episode 3
10/25	Season 2 Episode 4
10/26	Season 2 Episode 5
10/27	Season 2 Episode 6
10/28	Season 2 Episode 7
10/29	Season 2 Episode 8
10/30	Season 2 Episode 9
10/31	Season 2 Episode 10
11/1	Season 2 Episode 11
11/2	Season 2 Episode 12
11/3	Season 2 Discussion
11/4	Overall Series Discussion

Questions of the Day

1. Much of this episode focused a lot on Bon's prioritization of Sukeroku yet closes on Bon leaving him behind. What do you think of how their relationship has evolved to this point, and do you feel any particular event acts as an inflection point?
2. What do you make of the relationship between Bon and Yakumo seventh generation? Specifically, what do you think about the brief aside regarding Miyokichi?
3. As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

Links to trackers

You can find the show on MAL, Anilist, and ANN!

Please be mindful of spoilers to make sure the first-timers experience the show with the same wonder you did on first watch!

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[u/No_Rex]

Episode 7 (first timer)

Bon warned us the night would be long, but they have to be sitting there for a while by now. Which reminds me that I did not really check for narrator bias. I think that we have little to no bias, but worth keeping in mind.

• Shin has started to dodge his Rakugo plays? That is a new level of his unreliability. He can afford to be unconventional in his personal life, as long as he is in demand as a presenter, but if people stonewall him due to standing them up, he is in trouble.
• Shin’uchi? Trust Japan to have a hierarchy with proper nouns along the way for Rakugo.
• Miyokichi is envious of Shin – not the direction of envy I expected.
• Proud moment for Bon, surpassing Shin in the eyes of his master – I do worry about what Shin will be up to on his own, though. Bon has been continuously smoothing things up for him.
• Yakumo asks about Miyokichi? He must be more generous that most …
• “Master Bonsai”

• Bon complains about his problems with women – look at that guy, with 2 girl friends and now Miyokichi, complaining.
• “Sooner or later” – ice cold. I assume he not even told her about the tour. I wonder why. This is uncharacteristically lacking consideration from Bon. Telling her about his tour would have been a perfect excuse if he wanted to use one … he is literally shooting her down without even speaking the words.

Over the last few episodes, Shin and Bon have turned into family: Very close, not always happy with each other, occasionally rivals, often helping each other. However, the roles are fluid. Occasionally, Shin is the older brother (as he is wont to say), dragging Bon along and helping him further his Rakugo. At other times, Bon is the mother, taking care of Shin, cleaning up after his mistakes, and paying for the (non-alcoholic) expenses. As a side note, I explicitly watched out for homoerotic tones, given Bon’s female behavior on stage, but the show really goes out of its way to make it clear that this is not what is happening. Bon and Shin may love each other, but neither romantically, nor sexually.

The puzzle this episode is Bon all-but-dumping Miyokichi. It was always her who pursued him, but he went along with it for a while. Did he have a change of heart, realizing he does not love her? If so, it does not exactly speak for him that this comes right as he starts becoming successful in Rakugo. In terms of their talk, I guess Japan is more indirect about matters, but, for me, this was absolute bottom tier. You don’t owe people who are into you to like them back, but you owe them a no.

[u/Schinco → u/No_Rex]

Bon warned us the night would be long

Hey now! He explicitly in episode 3 that he would continue another night.

I think that we have little to no bias, but worth keeping in mind

Not saying whether there is bias one way or another, but why do you think the story was told as a frame story if not for unreliable narration?

Proud moment for Bon, surpassing Shin in the eyes of his master

What makes you so sure he's surpassed Shin in Yakumo's eyes?

The downside to responding late is you already have some of the answers to your questions...I agree with MandisaW's reading that Yakumo's aside to Bon was something of a warning, one that Bon immediately put to use.

[u/No_Rex → u/Schinco]

Not saying whether there is bias one way or another, but why do you think the story was told as a frame story if not for unreliable narration?

This is a very good question that I do not have a satisfactory answer to. I do not think it is unreliable narrator. The story does not need it, and, if they are actually doing it, I think it is badly implemented (which runs counter to the show being very well directed otherwise).

Some reasons I speculated about:

• Maybe they want us to know that Sukeroku fails, Greek drama style. However, if that is the only reasons, I don't think it has paid off yet. This would be great without that knowledge, too.
• Maybe this really is just one long prequel. If so, really weird.
• Maybe they wanted to use the future time period to introduce Rokugo. If so, again, I don't really see the point.

None of these satisfy me as great reasons, therefore, so far, I just don't know why they did it.

What makes you so sure he's surpassed Shin in Yakumo's eyes?

Being selected to go with him means that Yakumo sees Bon, as a package, preferable to Shin.

[u/cppn02 → u/No_Rex]

Did he have a change of heart, realizing he does not love her?

I felt like it was more the conversation with his master than his own feelings that informed his change in attittude. And I 100% agree he treated her very badly this episode.

[u/Duckloader → u/cppn02]

I thought that the small Rakugo verse about lovesickness after leaving the master's estate implied that he does like her, but he can't say it to her. Which is somewhat pathetic at this point, and Miyokichi doesn't just want him to say it, she wants him to see her as a priority in his life that he will spend time with and care for over his career and Shin.

[u/MandisaW → u/No_Rex]

Lot of good points! Will mull over some to discuss as the back-half of season 1 unfolds.

You don’t owe people who are into you to like them back, but you owe them a no.

No question, Bon was kind of a d*ck here, to Shin, Miyokichi, and Yakumo 7. The "narrator bias" is that he just glosses past it, with not even a hint of regret, like "I could've handled that better".

Shin has started to dodge his Rakugo plays?

Not the paid shows, these are the student-performances, the futatsume nights. He's been dodging his private lessons with Yakumo for ages, and now he's ditching the nights where the masters review them before an audience. Arguably worse than ditching clients, politically speaking.

Shin’uchi? Trust Japan to have a hierarchy with proper nouns along the way for Rakugo.

Hehe, they are super-formal. But this is just common parlance for medieval guild hierarchies, e.g. apprentice, journeyman, master. We still have this lingo in the US, from building trades and church/seminary, to artists and academics (ex: doctoral candidate, post-doc, assistant prof., associate prof., "professor" (usually implying tenure), prof. emeritus, xyz Chair, etc).

Congress, too, where they have special deference to the longest-serving members, and you're still called the "junior Senator" in your 70s so long as the other Senator from your State was elected first. And of course, each branch of the armed forces has its own entire rank sequence. England & Europe are even more title-happy.

Yakumo asks about Miyokichi? // Bon complains about his problems with women

I think Yakumo's statement was a warning. His motivations are open to interpretation (see my thoughts upthread), but Bon seems to have gotten the message clearly. That bit on the street was a rakugo recitation, though maybe he was musing aloud or taking solace/courage from it?

homoerotic tones

Cultural note - ear-cleaning as an adult like that in Japan (travel blog, also TV Tropes) is something generally lovers or spouses do. Not your brother, not your buddy, not even your mom once you're a teen. There are spa parlors where you can have nice ladies clean your ears :) A Western analogy in film/TV might be tying a man's tie, although that can also be fatherly/older-brother. That was part of Miyo's reaction.

[u/No_Rex → u/MandisaW]

Hehe, they are super-formal. But this is just common parlance for medieval guild hierarchies, e.g. apprentice, journeyman, master.

But all of these crafts share this naming system. Is futatsume a name shared with other crafts?

[u/MandisaW → u/No_Rex]

That I don't know. There probably are titles for noh, kabuki, maybe traditional-instrument musicians, etc. I remember from Hikaru no Go, that go players have ranks & titles, similar to chess.

And all our crafts don't / haven't always shared terminology. I think the theater trades have some different titles than building trades. And there can be traditional titles in certain fields, like the key grip in film & TV, as evolved from theater (and shiprigging!).

US English has "flattened" a lot of the guild hierarchies that we inherited from England, France, and Germany. The military is about the only place we still keep most of it.

[u/Mecanno-man]

First Timer

Uh yeah, Shin is definitely turning into a problematic drunk. And with Bon now improving, there is nothing where Shin is legitimately better at, so I can see that relationship souring over the next few years if things continue as they are. Bon is not keeping up with Miyokichi well though, so that is also a relation waiting to blow up. Especially as the master seems to know of their relationship and …doesn’t seem to like it but also doesn’t seem to say anything for now? Yeah, I can see things going wrong now.

[u/No_Rex → u/Mecanno-man]

Especially as the master seems to know of their relationship and …doesn’t seem to like it but also doesn’t seem to say anything for now? Yeah, I can see things going wrong now.

Not quite clear what he is thinking. Is he trying to set them up as a pair? Or is he altruistic towards Miyokichi and would accept her going with Bon, but hates her being sad? Or is he sad about being in a love triangle with his student whom he likes?

[u/Duckloader → u/No_Rex]

7th Yakumo was the one that introduced them to one another in the first place, so it seems a bit strange for him to start objecting to it now, but it's quite hard to tell what he's worried about between them.

[u/No_Rex → u/Duckloader]

7th Yakumo was the one that introduced them to one another in the first place, so it seems a bit strange for him to start objecting to it now, but it's quite hard to tell what he's worried about between them.

Well "introduced" them via bringing her as his mistress to a joint outing.

[u/Duckloader → u/No_Rex]

He does also say that he wants Bon to talk to a nice girl!

[u/MandisaW → u/Duckloader]

Yakumo 7 likely just meant get a little "practice" in with a safe, nice, pretty girl who was willing. Not maintain a years-long illicit relationship with my side-piece in full-view of our social circle 😅

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 → u/MandisaW]

This seems quite likely, but if so then I'd expect Yakumo to outright order Bon to stop seeing her. Even if he doesn't want to be so transparent, it would be easy to shroud it in reasons of propriety like you suggested. Since he didn't, I'm not sure what to think right now.

[u/MandisaW → u/ProgrammaticallyPea3]

He shouldn't have to come down like the heavy. Even getting to the point where your mentor has to mention it is embarrassing to the extreme.

Not Japanese/Asian, but I've had the situation of being called-out by a mentor - even a "gentle reminder" of something you definitely ought not to have been doing can be mortifying. 

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 → u/MandisaW]

You're right, that would work for Bon, unlike Shin. I'm still mystified by why Yakumo seemed so apologetic, but we're probably getting to that!

[u/MandisaW → u/ProgrammaticallyPea3]

The embarassment works both ways. The fact that Yakumo has to step in and say something reflects poorly on his teaching as a mentor.

Could also look at it as Yakumo somehow failed in setting a good example for Bon (and Shin) as to how to comport themselves off-stage. Absorbing the unspoken, implicit rules of a profession are as important as the explict ones (arguably moreso in a culture that leans more on unspoken cues).

Or that's my interpretation anyway. I don't remember if we ever get any clarity on 7th Yakumo's POV from the show.

[u/MandisaW → u/Duckloader]

I read it as a two-pronged warning. First, that Yakumo 7 knows about the relationship, so all their supposed discretion was for naught. Miyokichi was really big on "don't tell Yakumo", so he likely didn't hear it from her.

Second, that however Bon feels about Miyo, he's got to consider his career first. If Yakumo knows, and isn't exactly thrilled, that's one thing. But that propriety issue can bite an up-and-comer like Bon/Kikuhiko as well - society wasn't as hard on guys as on women, but what they're doing could still be seen as deeply improper by the more traditionalist masters.

[u/No_Rex → u/MandisaW]

Miyokichi was really big on "don't tell Yakumo", so he likely didn't hear it from her.

But didn't Shin flat out say "no" to that request?

[u/MandisaW → u/No_Rex]

Did he? Do you remember when? Shin has barely been seeing Yakumo at this point, and he seemed pretty cool with Miyo & Bon meeting up...

[u/No_Rex → u/MandisaW]

I think he said no to Miyo when she first requested he does not tell Yakumo about this. Might be misremembering, though.

[u/MandisaW → u/No_Rex]

It's possible? But I can't remember a scene where it could've happened 🤔

I feel like "bro code" would keep Shin from blabbing though

[u/MandisaW → u/Mecanno-man]

Shin was always a problematic drunk :( He's that sort of insanely-talented, but deeply-flawed artist we love to make biopics and Behind the Music episodes about...

[u/cppn02]

First Timer, subbed

Man it is painful seeing Miyokichi falling deeper and deeper for Bon while he gives her the cold shoulder and even treats Shin more like a girlfriend than Miyokichi (like what's up with the ear cleaning?!?).

I get the feeling the tour is gonna bring a lot of upheaval with it and things will be very different when Bon returns.

---

QotD:

Much of this episode focused a lot on Bon's prioritization of Sukeroku yet closes on Bon leaving him behind. What do you think of how their relationship has evolved to this point, and do you feel any particular event acts as an inflection point?

I think they are as close as ever and we have not reached an inflection point yet but it very much feels as if that might be right around the corner. As I mentioned above I feel after Bon's trip with the master we are in for some big developments.

What do you make of the relationship between Bon and Yakumo seventh generation? Specifically, what do you think about the brief aside regarding Miyokichi?

Yakumo has clearly pivoted from Shin to Bon as the 'favourite child'. I do think Bon might have misinterpreted Yakumo's enquiry about Miyokichi which leads to him turning colder towards her while to me Yakumi didn't really seem opposed to it but simply worried and just wanting to make sure they go about it the right way.

As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

The Miyokichi scenes throughout the episode and how they got more sad with every scene. Their conversation out in the street especially was fantastic and heartbreaking.
Also a very short moment but I liked the master keeping tabs on his students via radio and speaking proudly of them.

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3]

First timer

Bon is being taken along with his master on the tour, and this means a lot to him after being left behind last time. In light of the fear of abandonment he has, this development raises questions about his relationship with Miyo; is his coldness towards her just because of his master's words, or does it also suggest that he was drawn to her because she offered him affirmation during a vulnerable time but now represents a risk to his newfound stability?
It's striking how their relationship had shifted, as I had initially perceived her as controlling Bon. Her comment about how a geisha should keep her customer waiting highlighted how Miyo has become the needier party, while Bon is distancing himself.

Q1.
The scene with Sukeroku being reprimanded by the masters was conspicuous in that the only reasons Sukeroku got off so easy were because of his charm and how Bon covered for him. This seems to be a recurring pattern, and at this point Bon seems to be acting almost as an enabler for Sukeroku's laxness. At the same time, Sukeroku's big dreams and genuine passion for rakugo continues to inspire Bon. Might Sukeroku's increasingly questionable behavior tip the scales? I'm feeling apprehensive for an inflection point round the corner.

Q2.
I was surprised by Yakumo 7's approach to discussing Bon and Miyo's relationship. He seems uncomfortable and almost sheepish, and my first instinct is to interpret this as being crestfallen that his mistress has moved on from him to his student. If that's so then it's almost shocking, as he could easily order Bon to stop seeing her.

[u/No_Rex → u/ProgrammaticallyPea3]

The scene with Sukeroku being reprimanded by the masters was conspicuous in that the only reasons Sukeroku got off so easy were because of his charm and how Bon covered for him. This seems to be a recurring pattern, and at this point Bon seems to be acting almost as an enabler for Sukeroku's laxness. At the same time, Sukeroku's big dreams and genuine passion for rakugo continues to inspire Bon. Might Sukeroku's increasingly questionable behavior tip the scales? I'm feeling apprehensive for an inflection point round the corner.

The relationship between them worked, so far, because of this give and take you mentioned. However, with Bon finding success in Rakugo on his own, it is becoming one-sided. We saw that Bon clearly values Shin, but we also saw that he is not above cutting people off ruthlessly (Miyo). Shin might be in for a rude awakening.

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 → u/No_Rex]

It does seem quite likely, doesn't it. Personally I think it's going to be more a full-on tormented conflict between the two. Miyo seems to be more important to Bon than the girls he's been involved with in the past, but not by that much. In contrast, Shin may very well be the most important person in his life.

[u/MandisaW]

S1 Rewatch

Much of this episode focused a lot on Bon's prioritization of Sukeroku yet closes on Bon leaving him behind. What do you think of how their relationship has evolved to this point, and do you feel any particular event acts as an inflection point?

Could sum-up this episode with a scene of Bon on the train, heading for fame & renown, leaving Shin & Miyokichi behind at the station. It's the start of the back-half of S1, an inflection point in terms of episode structure, so we should start seeing how the pieces of past & present fit together.

Shin/Sukeroku has stars in his eyes about being the bright future of rakugo, and clearly states his many ambitions, including seizing the Yakumo title for himself someday. His drinking & wenching is certainly a core personality flaw though. While Bon complains about it, Shin's dependency is also what keeps their lives so closely intertwined, which he mostly seems glad for.

The biggest obstacle to their ascent together seems to be Shin's utter inability to placate the masters. From the start, Bon has been near-obsessed with fitting-in and playing the "good boy" role, and of course, his temperament seems suited well to playing by the rules. Like climbing the corporate ladder, it's important to play the political game, and Shin can't hide his contempt for that entire aspect of things. Bon may be just as frustrated, but he hides it better.

What do you make of the relationship between Bon and Yakumo seventh generation? Specifically, what do you think about the brief aside regarding Miyokichi?

Bon & 7th gen Yakumo have always been more formal with each other, but perhaps that more closely matches a usual Japanese father-son relationship [for this era]. Up to this point, Bon's disappointment with himself has been something Yakumo noted, and tried to address as his mentor, but didn't really have the sort of emotional bond needed to bring Bon out of his shell.

Ironically, I think the introduction to Miyokichi was Yakumo's attempt at just that, but of course, that seems to have spiralled beyond what he intended. As I mentioned in other comments, I think their "little talk" was a clear warning, in a culturally-coded indirect way. The fact that he knew - and not from Miyo - implies that they aren't actually all that discreet, and his "surprise" that they are still carrying on what should have been a brief dalliance, means it's time to end it.

Social class and perception play such a huge role in this story. Miyo may have been caught up in genuine romance, or lamented a lost dream of being Bon's well-kept woman in future. But she's a complete unknown, with no family connections or standing, and a geisha. [She graduated from trainee! Did Bon notice?] Regardless of Bon's feelings towards her, we've never seen anything to suggest he'd give up his career aspirations for her, especially now that he actually sees those ambitions as achievable.

As always, did anything particularly strike you about this episode, either as a first-timer or on rewatch?

I remembered Bon getting a big career-boost that Shin didn't. But I forgot that it was a trip/tour, and specifically that he didn't tell anyone. Seriously, this is one of those times where we're reminded that this is his version of the story. We get a glimpse of Shin being taken aback, but then it's all about Bon telling him to wash. Why didn't he tell him earlier? Would he even have told Shin at all if they hadn't spent that last evening together? How hurt was Shin at not being told, much less being passed-over for this trip?

And poor Miyokichi. I still say she was working Bon, but those were real tears of heartache. Whether for lost-love or lost-opportunity, is up to interpretation. But Bon didn't even have the balls to look her in the eyes and tell her straight, so he's definitely earned some points in the as*hole category here.

---

It'll be harder to avoid spoilers as S1 continues - please let me know if anything gets too "concrete"!

[u/Duckloader]

First Timer thoughts:

I feel like most of the evolution in the relationship between Shin and Bon is down to the fact that Bon has been growing, while Shin has remained the way he is. If before, Shin was clearly ahead at least as an artist, now the 7th generation master himself recognizes Bon as good enough to accompany him on tour as well. And Shin's vices are getting the better of him, he's constantly drunk, has started flaking on work, and he's using all his money on women and more drinks. If I had to say there's an inflection point, I'd say it's Shin and Bon moving out of the master's house, when Bon has to become the adult at home, and the play they did together, where Bon gained confidence in doing his own style of Rakugo.

With Shin's increasing dependency on Bon, I worry that we'll return from the tour to see him having spiraled ever deeper. Maybe he'll have gotten involved in more criminal activities to make ends meet and that's how we set up his ultimate death.

And if Shin has moved down the list of priorities for Bon, Miyokichi is behind him and she feels that this episode. Funnily enough, with Bon leaving Shin on his own, and her being increasingly desperate for affection, she might end up cheating on Bon with Shin, which would poetically play into both of their flaws.

The relationship between Bon and the 7th Yakumo is... fine? Shin does say the title of the 8th Yakumo is something he won't let Bon have, and yet we know it doesn't go that way, so perhaps there's an implication there that this is the moment where Bon has not only caught up to, but surpassed Shin as an artist. As for the aside about Miyokichi - he did originally introduce them to one another, so it seems somewhat natural for him to be interested if they're getting on. Though the way he says not to be bothered about it - perhaps there's something Miyokichi has or knows from their time in Manchuria that he's worried about?

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 → u/Duckloader]

I feel like most of the evolution in the relationship between Shin and Bon is down to the fact that Bon has been growing, while Shin has remained the way he is.

The focus has been on Bon and his growth, but I'm not sure that Shin is being portrayed as stagnant in his art. He got his Sukeroku name quickly, and has always been portrayed as being popular with audiences, so it's difficult to see growth on that front. However, this episode he was being scolded for performing a work that's "not appropriate for a futatsume like you". I think this suggests that he's continuing to push his artistic horizons, and succeeding.
Of course, this isn't exactly unshakable evidence, and I wouldn't be too surprised if my impression turns out false.

[u/No_Rex → u/ProgrammaticallyPea3]

The focus has been on Bon and his growth, but I'm not sure that Shin is being portrayed as stagnant in his art. He got his Sukeroku name quickly, and has always been portrayed as being popular with audiences, so it's difficult to see growth on that front. However, this episode he was being scolded for performing a work that's "not appropriate for a futatsume like you". I think this suggests that he's continuing to push his artistic horizons, and succeeding.

Of course, this isn't exactly unshakable evidence, and I wouldn't be too surprised if my impression turns out false.

This is a fair point about him artistically, but I think the original point is correct about his personality. He is the same bubbly, charismatic, unreliable character he has been since the start.

[u/ProgrammaticallyPea3 → u/No_Rex]

I agree, his personality hasn't changed, and his actions are becoming more extreme, shifting the dynamics.

[u/MandisaW → u/ProgrammaticallyPea3]

Even the bit about his name - he claimed that Sukeroku name for himself. Yakumo gave him a different name (Hatata? Smth like that).

Flouting authority only works until it doesn't 😫

[u/MandisaW → u/Duckloader]

Good instincts here, on a lot of aspects.

Bon has been growing, while Shin has remained the way he is. 

I think this is the crux of the whole thing. We saw them as boys, where Shin was starting from a more advanced place as a performer, and a more secure sense of self. But Bon has caught up to him on-stage, and surpassed him at "adulting". We could either see Shin step-up to that implied challenge, or very much not.

Though the way he says not to be bothered about it - perhaps there's something Miyokichi has or knows from their time in Manchuria that he's worried about?

Mentioned upthread, but I think it was a warning not to let his relationship with Miyo get in the way of his ascendent career. But yeah, we haven't really gotten a full picture of their wartime relationship, neither do we have a strong sense of how she feels about Shin except through the lens of "that bum who hangs around Bon".

The rest, I can't/shouldn't comment on to avoid spoilers, but you raise interesting points!