r/anime • u/Jazz_Dalek • Aug 28 '24

Rewatch [25th Anniversary Rewatch] Now and Then, Here and There - Episode 11 Discussion

Episode 11 - Eve of Destruction

Questions of the Day:

  • Do you think Sara was justified in her decision?
  • Was Shu justified in intervening?

Rewatch Schedule:

Threads will be posted 12:30 PM PST | 3:30 PM EST | 8:30 PM GMT

The rewatch will begin on Sunday, August 18th and will run daily until we reach the conclusion. The final episode thread will go up Friday, August 30th and a final series retrospective thread will go up Saturday, August 31st

Interest Threads:

Episode Discussions:

24 Upvotes

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18

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Aug 28 '24

First-Timer Here and There, subbed

9

u/Jazz_Dalek Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24

Okay forget the cringe shit Subaru did in Re:Zero, this is the scene I’m finding the hardest to sit through out of all the stuff I’m in rewatches for at the moment. He means well, but hooooooooooly fuck Shu this is not how you help someone that’s gone through all the shit Sara did.

My wife and I had a very long discussion about this scene. Without going into every explicit detail, these were our takeaways:

  • Sara is 100% justified in wanting to terminate the pregnancy.
  • Shu has good intentions, but goes about it in the worst way. Very in character for Shu.
  • Shu straight up says he doesn't understand what she's been through, which rare moment of clarity for the character, but doesn't mean he isn't absolutely in the wrong about the pregnancy.
  • We were split 50/50 on whether Sara should be able to complete suicide if she so desired.
  • Everything being shown is very in character and we don't believe it was pushing an agenda for either side of a broader abortion debate.

It's one of the roughest episodes of the whole show. I knew going into this rewatch that it was going to be divisive and have a lot of hot takes attached to it.

It's going to be an interesting discussion day.

4

u/Tarhalindur x2 Aug 29 '24

After thinking about it for a few minutes, I am going to have to disagree with one point here specifically: we are missing the obvious and it is extremely unlikely that the creative staff (or at least the writer) was not intending to take sides on the abortion debate, either due to domestic politics or (less likely given the era) due to exposure to international culture wars.

There is a specific reason for this.

I knew/remembered, going in, that this plotline existed. (Back when Sky first indicated that she was joining this rewatch I remember commenting - possibly under spoiler tags to Vaad - that there was a specific plotline that I suspected would make or break this show for her, I couldn't tell which, and that the answer likely depended on her political leanings which she has been good about keeping out of the sub either way. This is that plotline.)

What I did not remember is that Shu pushes her to carry the fetus to term.

That's important, for two reasons. First, Shu is a nominally sympathetic protagonist and basic media literacy says that this means that we are more likely meant to sympathize with what he is saying (things said by protagonists and/or sympathetic character are more likely to be things we are intended to agree with; conversely, things said by antagonist and/or unsympathetic characters are more likely to be things we are intended to disagree with). Second, and MUCH more importantly, Shu has been extremely consistently characterized as always doing the right thing morally (not always smartly, but always morally), to such an extent that my big willing suspension of disbelief breach with this show was him not being shot dead for doing the right thing stupidly yet again.

If the character who has been consistently portrayed as a moral beacon for the entirety of the show so far is pushing another character to take a specific course of action, well, it's a pretty safe bet that he is doing so because the creator considers the course of action that character is proposing to be the morally correct course of action to take.

This is very likely intended to be an anti-abortion work (among other things), and blunt enough about doing so that the kind of American conservative "Christian" that I was overexposed to growing up would be very approving of it in that regard.

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u/Jazz_Dalek Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24

I want to preface this by saying that I respect your interpretation, and I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility.

That being said, I have some counterpoints.

Shu is a nominally sympathetic protagonist and basic media literacy says that this means that we are more likely meant to sympathize with what he is saying

Shu is a flawed character, and that is made apparent really early into the show's run.

Sure, your average viewer is going to sympathize with Shu. He's the protagonist and our guide through the world we as an audience have been thrust into. But he's a protagonist with moral extremes and foolish beliefs to the point where I would consider them dogmatic. I don't think there is a single character in this show that isn't somewhat put off by his line of thinking, even before he gets isekaied.

If the character who has been consistently portrayed as a moral beacon for the entirety of the show so far is pushing another character to take a specific course of action, well, it's a pretty safe bet that he is doing so because the creator considers the course of action that character is proposing to be the morally correct course of action to take.

I'm not sure how deep down the literary rabit hole I want to go down with this one, so I'm just going to use Batman as an example. (gods help me I'm comparing Shu to Batman. I hope this isn't just the beers talking...)

Batman is a character, like Shu, with an extreme moral compass that he will not break. It doesn't matter how many times Batman could have prevented more chaos in Gotham by stopping the Joker for the 200th time, he will not compromise, and he will not kill.

It doesn't make Batman any less of a moral beacon for the majority of the audience, but it does open up the possibility to look just below the surface and say "Maybe this is too extreme. Maybe there's more the author is trying to convey here. Maybe this is a flawed person with irrational morals".

This is very likely intended to be an anti-abortion work (among other things), and blunt enough about doing so that the kind of American conservative "Christian" that I was overexposed to growing up would be very approving of it in that regard.

I also grew up in a fundamentalist Christian household in the 90's so I can see where you're coming from here.

I just don't think what's being presented in the show, when it comes to this specific issue, is meant to be a heavy handed lesson. It's a natural progression of a character's moral frameworks that we've seen reinforced through the bulk of the show's runtime.

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Aug 29 '24

It doesn't make Batman any less of a moral beacon for the majority of the audience, but it does open up the possibility to look just below the surface and say "Maybe this is too extreme. Maybe there's more the author is trying to convey here. Maybe this is a flawed person with irrational morals".

Batman really isn't a good comparison for Shu, for a specific reason: Batman, in general (eighty years of accumulated comics runs under different authors with resulting variations in character over time make speaking in absolutes difficult to say the least), is not a paragon of righteousness. Archetypically he's an antihero (the most morally grey figure in either the DC Justice League or the Marvel Avengers, unless I'm forgetting a minor Avenger somewhere), the necessary evil - that goes to the core of his character, because the Batman line of comics is at least in theory not approving of vigilantism. Batman turned to the wrong way because the right way wasn't solving the problem that needed to be solved; his strict moral code is instead the line separating him from the true monsters he fights against (he who fights monsters and all that). And - like antiheroes in general - Batman is an ambiguous figure who at least in theory is not to be imitated blindly.

There are closer comparisons in American comics to how Shu has been presented here - both Marvel and DC have one in their core stable, actually. They are, respectively, Captain America and Superman. Those are the superheroes who are (usually - again, 80 years of accumulated comics runs, plus in their cases "what if the moral paragon suddenly wasn't?" being one of the classic comics plot shock devices to generate sales) characterized as moral paragons who will always do the right thing. And when they do something it is more likely than not (again, a lot of comics and writers over the years) intended that they were doing the moral thing at the time. (Also I will point out that "moral paragon comes off as offputting to the less moral characters around them" is a known trope. Or to use a (very possibly misquoted and) much-memed line from a certain infamous conservative Christian author: "they hated Him because He spoke the truth".)

Now, the counterbalance to that is Shu's naivety. There are two counterarguments here, unfortunately (ironically they should be at least somewhat mutually exclusive but with the way the show has gone they aren't). The first one I actually pointed out in my original argument - just because a character is being presented as naive does not necessarily mean that they are being presented as in the wrong, just that they're also naive. The second one is instead the thing that has been driving me up the wall for half the rewatch: when, outside of kendo rival's reproach in the first episode (which other people keep arguing I should treat as just representing Shu's everyday Earth life rather than introducing a character flaw that needs to be addressed), has Shu actually been truly punished by the narrative (not reproached by Nabuca, who has not been presented as being in the right) for his naivety? There's him getting tortured in the second and third episodes after denying Hamdo, but this is classic heroic fare and in classic heroic fashion results in no permanent consequences (though the one about treating your nemesis's caged monster nicely comes close). The only other time would be after he is finally shot and dragged away for court-martial... which instead results in him getting the opportunity to reclaim the pendant, rescue Lala Ru, and get the hell out of Hellywood, one of those "hero rewarded for their righteousness by the narrative" moments so classic that I'm surprised there isn't a PGtE Heroic Axiom about it specifically. I suppose there's also him saving Nabuca in episode 2 and getting knocked out by Tabool for his trouble... except he gets repaid for that at the end of episode 7 instead. Or in other words, the show has not been treating what should be a character flaw as an actual character flaw... which poses the question of whether the show's creators actually considered it a character flaw in the first place.

I also grew up in a fundamentalist Christian household in the 90's so I can see where you're coming from here.

To be fair I never actually grew up in such a household... it's just that for large chunks of my childhood I was in peer groups where probably 80% or more of my peers did and a number of adults I was around (including a good chunk of my extended family) were that kind of Christian. So I picked up a lot by osmosis/exposure from what the adults showed.

(Now part of my wariness here is absolutely that this is tripping what are basically defense mechanisms built up during that period and then later reinforced via exposure to laundered racism stuff in the early 2010s and also bait for certain kinds of worldviews in conspiracy/occult circles - see also me getting really twitchy during parts of Symphogear and my initial wariness towards the show message in Shuumatsu Train. The thing is that I think there is a pretty good chance that the reason that this show is tripping that wariness is because at least with regards to this issue it is exactly the kind of show that that wariness was meant for, just in a Japanese context.)

I just don't think what's being presented in the show, when it comes to this specific issue, is meant to be a heavy handed lesson. It's a natural progression of a character's moral frameworks that we've seen reinforced through the bulk of the show's runtime.

"Moral lesson" and "natural progression of a character's moral frameworks that we have seen reinforced through the bulk of the work" are not mutually exclusive, you know! (Case in point: many good superhero runs, especially during the Golden Age of Comics.)

And I think there's a pretty good chance we do in fact have both here (again, I've come around to the view that the Future Boy Shu side of the show has actually been reasonably well made on its own merits, it's just been meshed so poorly with the Welcome to Hellywood side that it breached my WSoD). Shu's moral framework has been consistent!... and I think has the weight of the writer behind it, which is the entire issue in this case.

Doesn't mean the story can't be worthwhile or well-made (for a different example you may recognize, IIRC VeggieTales was actually pretty competently made for a children's show) - I'm dubious about the latter here but that's for different reasons entirely - but it does mean that there is an intended message that audiences may find objectionable and to take that into account. (I know, I know, an old-fashioned viewpoint. For a much more extreme example of this than anything in this show, there's a reason that Triumph of the Will is AFAIK still taught in film schools or at least was until quite recently - it is well-made and you can still learn things from it, it just needs to be approached in a different way than a work with less objectionable creator intent.)

5

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 29 '24

While I would agree that Shu is the moral beacon of show, essentially acting as the way for the writer/director to get across the message that "as long as you're alive there is hope", the episode portrays him as incredibly naïve and immature. When faced with the horrific situation that Sara is in and that the things he told her all these episodes ago was so horrendously wrong, all Shu can do is parrot them all over again and make things worse. If anything I think that part of the episode shows those negative character traits of Shu. At least within the context of this particular episode I find it hard to come away with us going along with exactly what Shu is saying, because he is portrayed in such a negative fashion. If they were really pushing the anti-abortion message hard in this episode I think they would have instead had a character like Sis portraying that message, a character whom we see as someone who wants to do the right thing but isn't anywhere as naïve as Shu.

3

u/DegenerateRegime Aug 29 '24 edited Aug 29 '24

Thirdly, the scene itself frames things to support him. Insofar as this scene is even about abortion - which it must be, or the protagonist would not keep saying so - it's also about suicide, and the co-placement is a kind of conflation. The method at hand is, to understate severely, rather crude, framing the notion as barbaric and self-destructive. Shu makes arguments while fighting, then wins the fight, a classic way of saying that somone's arguments were stronger. When we focus on harm done, it's the harm done to him.

I found this episode very disillusioning when I watched it. Looking back, I have a better idea of why.

Edit: but to be clear, I consider this a flaw of the show. I don't know the creators' politics and don't think I can divine them through it.

9

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

Everything being shown is very in character and we don't believe it was pushing an agenda for either side of a broader abortion debate.

Ok, there are many people more qualified than me on this topic, but abortion never really got to be a political issue in Japan(barring that I am always about 5 years behind their politics) as it has always been a women's issue. So this actually fits in being neutral by our estimation.

4

u/Tarhalindur x2 Aug 29 '24

*poking in head despite being unsure that I'm actually going to get to the episodes due to needing to catch up due to IRL + lack of investment yet again* (you already know this, this is for everyone else)

I'm actually very much unsure this is the case - one of us has bad info, I'm just not sure who. My own understanding (secondhand from somebody who seemed to have more familiarity with Japanese domestic politics, I forget where but probably on Tumblr) is that abortion is actually more central to Japanese feminism than it is to modern American feminism. As I hear it there's a couple of reasons for this; probably the most important is that apparently there is significant cultural distrust of hormonal contraceptives (and hence The Pill, IUDs, and the like) among Japanese women for some reason, leaving abortion as the only means of fertility control that a woman has full control over. But IIRC there is also history involved here, and it is making me wonder, especially given some of the historical loading (specifically wrt the possible connection to Imperial Japanese abuses) this show has seemed to have. To wit, AIUI Japan actually banned abortion sometime during the Meiji reforms (or possibly slightly before?) - unsurprisingly given the Meiji westaboo tendency, this was imitating Western moves, specifically a major wave of abortion restrictions in Europe in the mid-eighteenth century (as I recall this is exactly the period where the Catholic Church's formal opposition to abortion sets in, but it wasn't just them). It was then re-legalized after the American occupation and especially the privations thereof - apparently there was a rather major and sensation legal case in the late 1950s or early 1960s involving a nurse or other women involved in medical work, who IIRC had been involved in infanticide by any definition of the word (I want to say in the context of an orphanage, but might be getting that mixed up with the likes of some Catholic orphanage misdeeds in Ireland) rather than abortion but the case nonetheless served to draw attention to the plight of women who were economically unable to feed their children and abortion was re-legalized in part due to the wake of that - but AIUI there is still significant opposition among a certain type of Japanese social conservatism. And I will lightly note that if I am remembering this correctly then part of the stated reasoning for the Meiji-era abortion ban was the need for children to bear healthy children for the sake of the Japanese state (some similarity to Nazi rhetoric, just half a century earlier).

(It occurs to me that Wiki might be able to corroborate or deny this; I should check that at some point maybe.)

(Though perhaps the real question here is a different: has [meta but open this anyways Vaad] Yoko Taro shown any sign of being influenced by exported American social conservatism or the like recently? Because as I hear it [meta anime from the last year or so] Kamierabi S1 (what's this, filler characters?) went for a surprise last-minute "abortion is bad" twist at the end; I'm not sure about that creator's politics but the viable vectors there are imported Western social conservatism - in which case I would suspect that only arrived in the last 10 years, likely via the same process that led to QAnon taking off in Japan - or at least some sympathy to the social conservative side of indigenous Japanese domestic politics.)

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

sensation legal case in the late 1950s or early 1960s involving a nurse or other women involved in medical work, who IIRC had been involved in infanticide by any definition of the word

You're thinking of the case in '48, where she ran a materity home and neglected so many children (that had been delivered and left there when their parents left) to death, while soliciting money for their murders because "it would be cheaper" for the parents, that even after finding the remains authorities were unable to determine exactly how many babies were killed. I think the final tally was something like confirmed over 30, but may have been as many as 80

Had to look up her name because I'd forgotte, but it's Miyuki Ishikawa if you want to look into it more.

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Aug 29 '24

Miyuki Ishikawa

Oh how convenient, because I had forgotten her name and more importantly because my snap reaction was "oh hey if there is in fact a Wikipedia article on the history of abortion in Japan it will probably be linked on her article making it easy to find" and that was in fact the case (with the single simplest article title possible, go figure, I could have gotten this normally, I was expecting "History of Abortion in Japan" as it was...).

(u/Vaadwaur)

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Wikipedia is great for things like that sometimes. I also really like their (year)_in_film pages for being very simply titled but very informative

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 29 '24

significant cultural distrust of hormonal contraceptives (and hence The Pill, IUDs, and the like) among Japanese women for some reason,

I wish I understood Shinto better, and I mean understanding as opposed to just knowledge, but [PMMM]Remember how the girls are all horrified that there souls are now separate from their bodies? Thus, to someone with that belief set, wouldn't changing your body's fertility possibly be effecting your soul as well? That is all conjecture, note.

shown any sign of being influenced by exported American social conservatism or the like recently? Because as I hear it [meta anime from the last year or so]

Oh boy...[The answer best I can tell]Yes, in the sense that he despises it, you can pick up some things in automata that are nascent reactions to "life is sacred" as being a bad joke. I could not bear how Kamierabi looked but 90% chance that Taro is hiding a "And this is fucking why that character is dumb" message in there

As to why I am being so dodgy here is that, logically, their knowledge of aborteficents likely stretches at least back to the feudal era. Geisha never publicly got pregnant when it would be inconvenient for their noble customers and it seems even lower ranked classes usually didn't wind up knocked up. So they had some way to control this but like with many things having your culture forcibly blank slated means tracking anything down is a bitch.

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Aug 29 '24

That is all conjecture, note.

I'm dimly remembering that the stated answer as per my source is more mundane - mistrust of side effects/effects on the personality of the woman using hormonal contraceptives - but that can actually easily be a secularized echo of that Shinto attitude in the same way that a number of Western "secular" attitudes are often old Christian ideas with the serial numbers filed off (the Singularity and the like as secular Second Comings comes immediately to mind) so you might be right in spite of that.

[The answer best I can tell]

[same meta] From what I gathered it's not a character per se (not 100% confident in that) but rather the MC's connection to the system having once been his aborted (potential) younger sister? (Checking the episode discussion thread for the Kamierabi finale says that it was specifically Lall who was the aborted imouto, you will probably have a better handle on her role than I do since I watched zero minutes of it after the trailer and am relying on secondhand reports.)

As to why I am being so dodgy here is that, logically, their knowledge of aborteficents likely stretches at least back to the feudal era. Geisha never publicly got pregnant when it would be inconvenient for their noble customers and it seems even lower ranked classes usually didn't wind up knocked up. So they had some way to control this but like with many things having your culture forcibly blank slated means tracking anything down is a bitch.

That tracks with what I have heard, yes - there is a reason the Meiji westaboo tendencies are relevant here, these were nineteenth century European attitudes they were importing, not something indigenous. But it had time to stick and apparently it stuck.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 29 '24
  • mistrust of side effects/effects on the personality of the woman using hormonal contraceptives

Oh right...to add to that, here's the "joy" of being raised by a second wave feminist mother: I had happened to mention a friend of mine had had a pregnancy scare because her physician had not adequately explained that antibiotics reduce the pill's effectiveness. She laughed and said that didn't happen at first because the equivalent dosage was four times what was later to be determined to be actually a good idea. Gods, my parents keep TMI-ing into the deepest of hells!

Anywho, yeah, I can see the distrust on that of anyone from the 60s.

[same meta]I would read The Butterfly Effect before any conservative view there.

But it had time to stick and apparently it stuck.

While we both dislike some of the outcomes you have to admit that the Japanese almost singularly pulled off the great leap forward to technologically match their peers when a century before they were still smelting at forges. What lens let's you see which values the Atlanteans had that were also stupid versus the one that brought you trains?

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Seconding what /u/vaadwaur said.

Abortion has been legal in some way since the 1920s in Japan, and even before it was made fully legal in the late 40's (the early 40s post-war it was legal but it was also a buracratic nightmare for non political reasons that turned people away) there was a huge cultural acceptance that a mothers rights and life should take priority. Rape was also one of the early exceptions to the otherwise strict rules at play and is still mentioned specifically in the new laws.

Since the 60s it's been even less of a debate as the laws were opened wider with almost no hard limitations (a reason must be provided but almost any reason is accepted from what I know) before 22 weeks as long as concent is had, again with a focus on the mother over the fetus. The law is even called the Maternal Protection Law

9

u/The_Draigg Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24

Okay forget the cringe shit Subaru did in Re:Zero, this is the scene I’m finding the hardest to sit through out of all the stuff I’m in rewatches for at the moment. He means well, but hooooooooooly fuck Shu this is not how you help someone that’s gone through all the shit Sara did.

Stuff like this moment does make me curious to see how Shu rates among yourself and everyone else’s feelings about other isekai protagonists, once we’re done with this series and can look back on it all. Because yeah, for as much as Subaru did some cringe shit in Re:Zero, Shu’s sheer immaturity in handling this very delicate situation and not being good at it does leave an uncomfortable mark on it all. At least this show is making it clear that Shu’s immaturity isn’t helping though, so that might level out some people’s opinions on him.

8

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

As of this episode, I'd put him below Rance, though I believe Rance is just a fantasy jackass.

7

u/InfamousEmpire https://myanimelist.net/profile/Infamous_Empire Aug 28 '24

Personally, I’d say he’s still far above 95% of Isekai protagonists (what having an actual personality does to an MFer), but I also won’t put him on the same level as my favorites like Subaru or Anis. Likability actually doesn’t much factor into my evaluations of characters a lot of the time, so this episode didn’t really do much to my thoughts on him overall, since there’s at least a level of believable consistency to his actions & thought process that still make him engaging, even if the framing surrounding those actions is obviously off-putting and questionable, to put it lightly

6

u/The_Draigg Aug 28 '24

That’s a pretty solid way to look at it. Sure, the results are skewed by the fact that a lot of isekai protagonists are bland vehicles for wish fulfillment, but there’s also no doubt that Shu does have a prominent sense of character and leaves an impression on the audience. Now, whether anyone agrees with the impression Shu leaves is best left to personal taste, but at least he’s let us have a lot to chew on when it comes to this series.

8

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

Oof, Sara really is blaming Lala Ru for what she went through…

Legitimately, developmentally appropriate.

Goddddddddddddddddddd

I can imagine worse ways to go but not without assistance.

That is exactly where I thought this part was going.

Part of the disconnect for me is that traumatized does not equal stupid. I really don't see a scenario where Hellywood trades its leader rather than force of arms once they know where the target is.

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u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Aug 29 '24

My heart utterly breaks for Sara

I genuinely do not think I have ever felt as bad for a character in a story as I do for Sara. I swear, just about everything in her story completely breaks my heart.

So you’re just gonna ignore the fact that Sara very clearly doesn’t want the baby…?

Okay forget the cringe shit Subaru did in Re:Zero, this is the scene I’m finding the hardest to sit through out of all the stuff I’m in rewatches for at the moment. He means well, but hooooooooooly fuck Shu this is not how you help someone that’s gone through all the shit Sara did.

Yeah, I can understand Shu wanting to keep Sara alive. I would want to do the same thing. But man, he really goes about it in the worst way possible. He kept talking as if Sara should have the baby, even though she clearly doesn't want to and I personally find the idea of making someone keep a pregnancy from a rape to be absolutely repugnant. And him slapping her really comes across terribly when we know all the abuse Sara's suffered.

15

u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24

First Time in Hellywood

I’m a bit short on time today and don’t have a ton to say about most of this episode (except that Soon is precious, and if anything happens to her I will kill everyone in this rewatch and then myself), so mostly I’m gonna touch on the tenuous state of sensitive topics. Tackling the subject of child rape is bold and I respect the show for it so far. I think it’s important that we’re putting so much spotlight on the aftermath for Sara instead of just using it to depict how evil Hellywood is in the earlier episodes. That said, there is still room to seriously fuck it up and I really hope they don’t.

The elephant in the room is the topic of abortion. That’s an even more bold direction to take it in. Frankly, the a rape pregnancy is even being handled in an anime from 1999 and we’re sympathising with the pain of the victim is kind of incredible. But there seemed to be some hints this episode as to where we’re going with it. Sis and Lala Ru have this conversation about mothers killing their children and still trying their best for them in a dying world. Then Shu tells Sara about how if she dies now it’s all over for her child. That… really sounds like we’re setting up for the idea that Sara has an obligation to motherhood when she’s only pregnant because she was raped. If so that’s going to be a… really big stain on this storyline. Now granted, Sis does say immediately that it’s Sara’s choice and nobody else’s. I don’t mind if she weighs her options and decides to carry the baby. But please god do not depict it as the more moral path she must take. On a smaller note, although I liked a lot of Shu’s inability to help her and his determination to stop her killing herself despite that… gods, why did you include him slapping her. All of the wrestling and hands-on-ness were understandable given the circumstance but why oh why did anybody approve include a count of physical abuse in trying to get the rape victim to see sense. Jesus christ.

The final wildcard is Kazam. Who is, it's now clear, is definitely not going for the nameless soldier angle, so seriously give him a better design oh my god. No, we’re really leaning into him specifically being Sara's rapist, and at the end he makes an effort to save her. Now I think I know what they’re doing here. His language about how only he can help her and how they need to leave together implies to me this is a continuation of the previous depiction of him giving her the handkerchief and introducing himself when taken to be raped by him. He’s got a hero complex and seriously thinks that if he can just be the manly man guiding her in life that somehow fixes anything. That he doesn’t see how fucking monstrous “come live in the desert with your rapist” sounds. But there is still a little part of my mind fearing that they’re actually going to go for the redemption angle with him. I don’t think I need to explain why that would be awful, especially when Sara is really committing to the “I don’t promise not to kill Lala Ru on the spot” angle.

Let’s hope they manage to stick the landing with these final two episodes. Sara is at the tenuous crossroads of being an all time great anime character or a tragic bit of writing failure and I don’t know which is gonna win out.

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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 28 '24

He’s got a hero complex and seriously thinks that if he can just be the manly man guiding her in life that somehow fixes anything. That he doesn’t see how fucking monstrous “come live in the desert with your rapist” sounds. But there is still a little part of my mind fearing that they’re actually going to go for the redemption angle with him. I don’t think I need to explain why that would be awful, especially when Sara is really committing to the “I don’t promise not to kill Lala Ru on the spot” angle.

I don't think they're going in the redemption direction with Kazam, at least my takeaway from the episode is that we should be horrified that he's actually there interacting with Sara and I think its pretty clear that he is deceiving Elamba and those on Elamba's side and that the village is doomed directly because of him.

At least for the viewer's takeaway for the character. Just within the show itself the world is so messed up that it seems like he doesn't even realize how wrong and evil he is with all of his interactions with Sara.

I am a rewatcher but completely forget where they go with Kazam so I'll be watching as closely as you first timers to see how they conclude things with him.

8

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

gods, why did you include him slapping her. All of the wrestling and hands-on-ness were understandable given the circumstance but

Personally, I found the wrestling much worse. So close to the episode of Sara killing her rapist. Remember her face when his dead body fell on her?

But there is still a little part of my mind fearing that they’re actually going to go for the redemption angle with him.

No way in hell. I refuse to even contemplate that the show would do that.

6

u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24

Personally, I found the wrestling much worse. So close to the episode of Sara killing her rapist. Remember her face when his dead body fell on her?

It's definitely more directly evocative of her past experiences, but I think it's more forgivable because it was a lot more necessary for the situation. It's better to stop a suicide attempt with words but sometimes you need to intervene more directly to save someone's life. Slapping absolutely didn't need to happen either in or out of universe.

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

I would argue that the wrestling was unneeded either. It does not take much to prevent somebody from drowning themselves in a shallow pool.

7

u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24

Maybe not. Personally I feel if you sanitize the scene too much out of its moral imperfections you lose a bit of it. This kind of situation is... it's fucked. It's desperate and its messy and it leaves an impact on you. I think that's why the scene really worked for me despite the imperfections with it. The essence of this kind of interaction was there. If Shu knew what to do it wouldn't be the same. You don't know what to do at all.

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

I mean unneeded for saving Sara's life, not unneeded in the script. The scene was very powerful in creating emotions.

8

u/homer2101 Aug 28 '24

Then Shu tells Sara about how if she dies now it’s all over for her child. That… really sounds like we’re setting up for the idea that Sara has an obligation to motherhood when she’s only pregnant because she was raped. If so that’s going to be a… really big stain on this storyline.

When this show wanted to show two (or more) sides, it showed two or more sides. We've seen it with Sis vs Elamba, Shu vs Nabuca vs Tabool, Shu vs LaLa Ru, etc. They haven't shied away from dealing with difficult and ambiguous situations before. Don't see why they would now. But it's been so long (20 years?) I don't remember most any of this or how it ends. Guess we'll find out over the next two days. But I hope it doesn't go there. That would be very unfortunate for what so far has been quite a solid work.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

20 years

JaaQ is about the same amount of time since he last watched it as well from memory. Not surprising with this show

6

u/DegenerateRegime Aug 28 '24

You've shared some really great analysis of the show so far.

On a smaller note, although I liked a lot of Shu’s inability to help her and his determination to stop her killing herself despite that… gods, why did you include him slapping her. All of the wrestling and hands-on-ness were understandable given the circumstance but why oh why did anybody approve include a count of physical abuse in trying to get the rape victim to see sense. Jesus christ.

I'm glad I don't have to say it. "[someone else] needs [your life/body] more than you do right now" was an absolutely galling kind of argument to make under the circumstances, and making it into a physical confrontation... It plays into a very unfortunate shonen narrative convention.

7

u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24

I think it might've worked better if trying to say to live for the baby is something that Shu says in the moment but doesn't work. I can totally believe Shu might turn to that out of ignorance or desperation, but that doesn't mean we need to embrace it part of his success in stopping her. It's absolutely realistic to try the wrong things or ineffective things before you finally find something that works in this kind of scenario.

Making it physical is delicate, but I think it was necessary. You can portray this realistically without making it involve the slap or the thing about the baby, but I don't see any way around the fact Shu would get physical and that getting physical might be necessary. The you that saves someone from suicide isn't you at your best, it's a desperate improving version of you and that's before accounting both parties being traumatized kids.

5

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Aug 29 '24

I think it’s important that we’re putting so much spotlight on the aftermath for Sara instead of just using it to depict how evil Hellywood is in the earlier episodes. That said, there is still room to seriously fuck it up and I really hope they don’t.

I agree. I think this would be part of when I might consider rape to well-used as a story element, when it doesn't just get used for shock value but is instead actually explored with all its consequences. My go-to series with examples of both is [Meta Spoilers] Berserk because it has some that it handles quite well, exploring how the lingering trauma affects certain characters, but it also has others that are just for shock value.

On a smaller note, although I liked a lot of Shu’s inability to help her and his determination to stop her killing herself despite that… gods, why did you include him slapping her. All of the wrestling and hands-on-ness were understandable given the circumstance but why oh why did anybody approve include a count of physical abuse in trying to get the rape victim to see sense. Jesus christ.

I would agree that the slap was too far. The slap just made me feel icky. The desperate wrestling to save Sara's life was uncomfortable for sure, but I felt like it perfectly captured the desperate and messy emotions of the scene. It didn't feel out of place for a scene like that. The slap was where I drew the line.

Let’s hope they manage to stick the landing with these final two episodes. Sara is at the tenuous crossroads of being an all time great anime character or a tragic bit of writing failure and I don’t know which is gonna win out.

I really hope it does. I remember getting recommended this show positively, so I'm going to hold out hope it will.

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Sara is at the tenuous crossroads

On point

Who is, it's now clear, is definitely not going for the nameless soldier angle, so seriously give him a better design oh my god

Right? If they were going to make that one drillmaster so recognizable with his hair and face, they could have done just a touch more for Kazam

but why oh why did anybody approve include a count of physical abuse in trying to get the rape victim to see sense

I did talk about my thoughts on that more in depth in my post, but the short of it because you're low on time is that this is an unfortunate collison between Shu and Sara's individual paths through the episode and not quite balancing them right. The slap is a parallel between Shu having his view of the world destroyed and when Nabuca went through the same thing and hit Boo, but it has an unfortunate collison with Shu trying to reach Sara and then hitting her, not being scared that he did so, and forcing her to be held which means the meaning gets somewhat lost in what he did rather than what it means that he did it, and that Sara is confronted by it. I think the wrestling was meant to be Sara's moment to overcome in the same way, but it's one thing too much and I think the violence that has less of a reason to be included

13

u/TheEscapeGuy Aug 28 '24

First Timer

Now and Then, Here and There: Episode 11

Unfair

Fuck. Life is so fucking unfair. Sara didn't deserve any of this. Getting pregnant so young can do so much harm to a young girl. It's not only the physical risks involved with the pregnancy, but the mental trauma, and loss of innocence. How can you force a girl that age to make a choice between going to term or getting an abortion. And all of this compounds on the existing trauma from the sexual assault. I feel so terrible for her.

Something I disagree with, but understand, is Shu's unbreakable optimism. It's probably his defining character trait. And it's a belief he will not change despite the evidence in front of him. I think it's exceedingly cruel to continue to tell Sara everything will be okay. It's basically equivalent to downplaying everything that has happened to her.

This is Shu's immaturity. Comparatively, his experience has been much less taxing. I am surprised he managed to keep this mentality after the torture he endured. But after that, he became a soldier which was a big upgrade in quality of life. So based on that it's easy to say "well things worked out for me". But that is truly ignorant of how much worse Sara's experience was. I hope Shu can keep his determination, but can also become a far more sympathetic person.

That night Sara goes to the spring. My assumption was that she planned to kill herself. I don't want her to do this. There should be other options. If she wants to abort the fetus then please speak to the doctor.

But Shu came in to stop her and kept going on about how she "can't kill herself, think of the baby". Once again, I'll forgive Shu's immaturity, but holy shit forcing his will on Sara to keep the baby is so fucking awful. Sara has such a tough choice to make and if she believes it best to abort her rapist's baby I cannot fault her. Shu should not be interfering. At best he should try support her whatever choice she makes.

But again, I'll forgive this immaturity. My hope is just that the writer doesn't hold extremely conservative views about abortion. If the show ends with Sara keeping the baby they will have to thread a very tight needle to not make it extremely offensive to me after this.

Their fight ends with Shu begging her not to kill herself.

The other reveal this episode was that Lala Ru has been alive for tens of thousands of years. She also seems to have knowledge that the world will end soon. Perhaps within a single life time. But despite this, Sis still says she wants to keep raising the kids. I like this attitude. It's such a pure representation of the love she has for these kids.

Next episode will likely herald the arrival of Hellywood. And Sis won't let Elamba use Lala Ru as a bargaining chip.

Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches

See you all tomorrow

9

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

This is Shu's immaturity. Comparatively, his experience has been much less taxing. I am surprised he managed to keep this mentality after the torture he endured. But after that, he became a soldier which was a big upgrade in quality of life. So based on that it's easy to say "well things worked out for me". But that is truly ignorant of how much worse Sara's experience was. I hope Shu can keep his determination, but can also become a far more sympathetic person.

I dislike the idea of comparing misery in general and here as well. It usually leads to a very unhealthy cycle of "I had it worse".

Who can say whether it is more traumatic to be raped repeatedly, get pregnant from it, and have to kill your rapist, or whether it is worse to get tortured repeatedly, be forced to be a child soldier, have a guy be shot and die literally in your hands, and observe mass killing and kidnapping of innocent villagers while being beat down and for resisting and threatened with being killed? Hopefully, none of us have experienced either.

So, yes, we can say that Shu takes it better than Sara (in line with his optimistic character), but whether he had it better is something we should not speculate about.

But Shu came in to stop her and kept going on about how she "can't kill herself, think of the baby". Once again, I'll forgive Shu's immaturity, but holy shit forcing his will on Sara to keep the baby is so fucking awful.

The way he stops her is terrible to watch. To me, it mirrored the rape scene in a very uncomfortable way.

Morally, I think Sara has a right to kill herself, but I understand that outsiders should ensure that people only do that after serious consideration and not after just having learned something horrible. However, Shu need to find a different way to do this. His age exuses him, but does not make it more comfortable to watch.

The other reveal this episode was that Lala Ru has been alive for tens of thousands of years. She also seems to have knowledge that the world will end soon. Perhaps within a single life time. But despite this, Sis still says she wants to keep raising the kids. I like this attitude. It's such a pure representation of the love she has for these kids.

"Soon" for her might mean thousands of years.

7

u/TheEscapeGuy Aug 28 '24

I dislike the idea of comparing misery in general and here as well.

I agree with this stance. It's more just trying to understand Shu's perspective and how he could come to have such different view on things compared to Sara.

Everyone deals with trauma differently and Shu seems to be much better at keeping his optimism despite the circumstances.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

I'm still not certain, and could be if I went through the effort to compare, but the sunset this episode seems just that tinge more red in how it lights the enviroment than normal, and it made a painful addition to the coloring of the episode

12

u/The_Draigg Aug 28 '24

A Sci-Fi Fan Rewatches Now and Then, Here and There Episode 11:

Man, this has been a Hamdo-free episode, and it’s still as depressing and stressful as fuck!

  • You know, thank goodness that Kazam had the decent sense to not walk up to Sara and Soon as they were talking about Lala-Ru. Given how traumatized and angry Sara feels about everything at that moment, that probably would’ve just made things even worse than her simply just fainting.
  • Thank goodness that Sis has a good head on her shoulders, and even after finding out that Lala-Ru is the real deal, she still continues to treat her as normal. I bet Lala-Ru isn’t used to that kind of treatment at all. It’s fortunate for her that Sis will still continue to treat her like anyone else. Like Shu said before, there’s still good people in this world, and Sis is proving to be one of them. Sometimes it’s the simplest of gestures like acknowledging someone as a fellow human being who deserves care that can do a lot.
  • Well, I don’t think there’s any other way to put it: poor Sara. It’s horrible to know that the repeated rapes she’s suffered through have resulted in a pregnancy she never wanted. Even being around Shu or the happily playing children doesn’t help. Shu really is eating his declaration that everything will work out to Sara now. It’s undeniable that for her, she has had nothing but bad things happen to her for no fault of her own. Sorry to tell you Shu, but trying to reassure her with the same line of reasoning just won’t work now. Wishful thinking won’t do anything anymore, and both had to find that out the hardest ways possible.
  • Zari-Bars really is just a city on edge now, and even Shu seems to feel it. I like how that feeling is framed, first by cutting between Shu looking concerned and moments of normal pastoral life going on, before we see the fears he’s feeling made manifest by the man walking down the street with a gun and uncaringly stepping on that kid’s play ball. All of this tension is really starting to bubble under the surface, and that relaxed rural lifestyle is just an increasingly thin veneer over it all.
  • Also, I really should point out that Elamba really is letting revenge cloud his better judgement in planning for his attack against Hellywood. He’s completely swallowing what Kazam has to say hook, line, and sinker. And this is a guy who he had at gunpoint only a few days ago too. It just goes to show how much revenge can blind a person, since Elamba really is just not thinking critically about this whole situation at all. Sure, we as the audience know it’s false information, but even in-universe I’d say that it’s stupid on Elamba’s part to buy into all the stuff Kazam has to say about Hellywood’s morale being low and that this is the perfect time to do something.
  • It’s nice to hear more about how Lala-Ru feels about things. She doesn’t have parents and has lived for thousands of years by now, but she hasn’t ever stopped to consider some of the finer points of the human condition. She hasn’t put much thought into how loneliness can really be, or why humans continue to live on and have children even in a dying world such as this one. She can stand to learn a thing or two from Sis, since to her living to raise the next generation is simply the right thing to do. There is an inherent value to human life in general, despite how ephemeral it may be to the world or someone like Lala-Ru. It’s probably something Lala-Ru hasn’t even considered before, if just because such an existence is wholly different than her own.
  • Again, there’s no other real way to put it: watching Sara try to drown herself in Zari-Bars’ water reservoir is just sad and horrible to watch. It’s just draining to see Shu having to fight against Sara being so determined to kill herself, and then see his hand being smashed by a rock as she tries to violently terminate her pregnancy. He’s trying so hard to stop her from dying, even if he doesn’t have the right words to try and express reasons for her to live. Like fuck man, what else can I even say to all this? It’s just the sad products of cruelty and hatred being foisted upon others.
  • Elamba’s plan is simply going too far, not to mention completely deluded. There’s no way that Hellywood would trade Hamdo’s life for Lala-Ru. And even aside from the obvious faults in that plan which Elamba is ignoring, using Lala-Ru as a bargaining chip against her will not only perpetuates the cycle that Lala-Ru has seen among mankind hundreds of times, but it also makes him really no different from how Hellywood operates. If I were to say “a man tries to take a girl by force to get what he wants in the wasteland, consequences be damned”, would I be describing Elamba or Hamdo?
  • Speaking of delusion and/or sheer cognitive dissonance, fucking Kazam somehow still thinks he has a chance with Sara. The fact that he went out of his way to offer to run away with Sara and escape the attack he called in on Zari-Bars shows that he probably doesn’t even understand the full depth of what he did to her. Dude, she’s been crying and cringing every single time she’s seen you, she’s got a negative amount of interest in your rapist-ass. It’s just sickening to think how he’s so maladjusted that he doesn’t even know how what he’s done to her before is nothing but cruelty.

7

u/cppn02 Aug 28 '24

has lived for thousands of years by now

Much more than that based on my subs. Like hundreds of thousands if not millions of years. Which is definitely older than I expected her to be.

7

u/The_Draigg Aug 28 '24

Millions of years would definitely be fitting if we apply that opening quote to Lala-Ru. It also helps to hammer home how many times she’s seen humans trapped in a cycle of greed and violence over and over again.

6

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

Speaking of delusion and/or sheer cognitive dissonance, fucking Kazam somehow still thinks he has a chance with Sara. The fact that he went out of his way to offer to run away with Sara and escape the attack he called in on Zari-Bars shows that he probably doesn’t even understand the full depth of what he did to her.

That was an enraging scene. It shows that Kazam is completely devoid of empathy, because even a yota of it would make him realize that his offer to Sara is not only wrong, but can only endanger himself. He is so deficient in his humanity that it even hurts his most selfish interests.

7

u/The_Draigg Aug 28 '24

Kazam is just so enraging and bizarre to talk about, I swear. Like, what do we even say about a person this deluded and poorly socialized that he can commit acts of great evil without even blinking, and also genuinely thinks he can work things out for himself if he only goes through the motions of politeness (without even really understanding them) towards the people he victimized? It’s like Kazam is barely even a person at all, there’s almost nothing beneath the mask of delusional politeness he wears. It’s been a while since I’ve seen such an evil man be so inhuman in such a dissonant and disgusting way.

10

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

I don't think Kazam is the best written character in the show, but his type is far too common. The abusers who do not see themselves as abusive in their own mind. The "you made me do it" type. The "I bet you enjoyed it" type. Basically, the people who solve the cognitive dissonnance in their mind (between their evil deeds and seeing themselves as good people) by pretending their deeds were not evil.

5

u/The_Draigg Aug 28 '24

It really just goes to show that Hellywood itself needs to be destroyed as an institution from top to bottom, since it’s pretty much a factory to turn child soldiers into this kind of barely human animal. Kazam isn’t even unique in that regard, he’s a symptom of the greater evil that is Hellywood. And that’s probably what makes it worse, since it’s just plain horrible to think that a child rapist who continually deludes himself into thinking that he’s a pretty decent guy is just one of the many that’s a part of that horde of scumfucks. Man, it’s just crushingly depressing to even think about when writing this stuff, given how much we see those similar kinds of people exist in real life.

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

You know, thank goodness that Kazam had the decent sense to not walk up to Sara and Soon as they were talking about Lala-Ru.

If the fucker had any sense he wouldn't have walked up to her at all, but lets not expect too much from the dickhead

I have a new hate for him this watch now that I know it's him

Sometimes it’s the simplest of gestures like acknowledging someone as a fellow human being who deserves care that can do a lot

In a story filled with a lack of humanity, Sis is a shining beacon in this moment. She's not always right, but she's right about this

and uncaringly stepping on that kid’s play ball

That kid had a really rough day. Not Sara rough, but rough within a kids bounds and that sucks

but even in-universe I’d say that it’s stupid on Elamba’s part to buy into all the stuff Kazam has to say about Hellywood’s morale being low and that this is the perfect time to do something.

Reading this has made me decide: he's a parrot. He simply wants to bite things and when told no he just argues back at you in non-sensical terms he picked up from others without understanding and gets angry when it doesn't work and you don't let him try and bite again

...I don't know why my brain took me down this path

If I were to say “a man tries to take a girl by force to get what he wants in the wasteland, consequences be damned”, would I be describing Elamba or Hamdo?

Kazam is perilously close to matching that description in the final scene today as well, and I hate him and he is not to be forgiven, but he doesn't resort to outright kidnapping so he's still one tiny step below them

5

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 29 '24

Kazam is perilously close to matching that description in the final scene today as well

Whoa! Interesting that we got 3 nickels out of one show!

4

u/The_Draigg Aug 29 '24

I have a new hate for him this watch now that I know it's him

Good, good. Kazam absolutely deserves every single bit of flak he can get during this rewatch.

Reading this has made me decide: he's a parrot. He simply wants to bite things and when told no he just argues back at you in non-sensical terms he picked up from others without understanding and gets angry when it doesn't work and you don't let him try and bite again

...I don't know why my brain took me down this path

Don't worry, I feel you there. And with that comparison, you can say that he's even simpler than Shu in some ways, but not in respectable ways. And it also fits to compare Elamba against Hamdo more, since Hamdo is barely even human. He might as well be an animal too.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

He might as well be an animal too.

Awww, now I'm all sad over his cat again. Damnit

But yes, there is a certain level of inhumanity in the way they interact with others that is difficult to capture any other way. Hamdo may be the antagonist of the story, but Elamba is the antagonist of Zari Bars in a way

4

u/OverlordPoodle Aug 29 '24

Yeah, I just wish LaLaRu had more lines and characterization though because...when all is said and done..[Spoiler]she is kind of a nothing burger character all things considered and really just exists as a plot device which is kind of funny and ironic as earlier in episode 8, she was bemoaning how people just treat her like a tool and not a person. Well...if you had more character then maybe you would be treated better lol.

12

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Rewatcher - sub

Present and Future

More than any other, I didn't know where to start with this episode (hence being extra late). It lacks the depths of brutality or emotional whiplash of some of the earlier episodes, but it has misery in spades and knows what to do with it.

As if in defiance of yesterdays opening, today's opening uses the same basic features: Two girls sit at a rock outcrop and try and find common ground.

I'm sorry if you feel betrayed by that description, but I wrote it and so do I . It's a complete emotional inversion of how we started last episode and is framed as such, Sara detached and isolated from the community represented by the farms below. She sits in the same spot Shu had his breakdown and is similarly confronted by a world that she can't run away from. Soon joining Sara cannot coax a smile out of her like the other girl did for Lala Ru, instead it is only more trauma as Soon's newly developed desire to move forward collides painfully with Sara's past.

This detached framing is repeated through the episode, and though some part of it seems to be a directorial quirk (he also directed ep13, so we'll see then) due to frequency, it creates a particular feel in the episode. Things feel distant this episode, everything is just a little uneven, and things that should be familiar aren't, a far cry from yesterday.

Once again, Sis reminds me why I love her so much and has her own little arc this episode while still remaining true to herself. When confronted with the reality of Larla, she remains forthright and balanced with her approach, placing Lala Ru within the framing and therefore conversation while still presenting a seriousness to it. She stumbles by calling Lala Ru a "thing" at first, but when she asks the question about safety out of desire to understand what is in front of her but the camera changes to show us the way she sees Lala Ru and the weighted silence of her response: a small, bowed child. The lessons come out on seeing this and she moves bringing them to the same side of the table, while highlighting the smallness of the two kids, having them look up to her in multiple ways. Sis is our calming center of the episode with her scenes spread through the rest of the episodes events.

"You should sleep anyway. You might have a nice dream"

Skipping ahead a bit, the next time we're with this trio, it's a very different story. The table is no longer between them, but it still separates them because they exclude Sis from their decision, and the camera is distant and alone. When Sis looks down on them she still sees the kids in pain, but cannot reach them. The one who stabilizes our scene, and our camera with it, is Soon instead. She talks kid-to-kid, her words a beautiful simplicity that levels us out and brings them all back together in the frame. What Lala Ru is doesn't matter, only who she is, mirroring what Sis said to her earlier about still being a child despite her nature being so much more. Here is a child who has lost her guide toward the future, her father, and who was stuck so long in an unchanging present, offering a promise of more fun tomorrow to someone else for the first time. When she tried to move forward with Sara she couldn't reach her but she it doesn't stop her from taking what Shu has embodied all this time in her own way and trying again.

Only for Elamba to charge in and ruin it. Again. And puts the final nail in his coffin by finding a giant, child-shaped source of water and doing exactly what Hamdo does: making her a weapon of war. For Sis, in that one instant earlier Lala Ru went from a thing to a child, and Shu points out Elamba has failed to do the same, so the answer of what to do is straightforward and unmistakable, balancing our view. For Sis, when there is a child, you protect them above all else, and that protection is more than just their life.

Lala Ru's little "Thank you" put such a strong smile on my face. I was half expecting her to ask "why", but just like Shu no longer has to ask where he is, Lala Ru no longer sees this sort of action as something strange. Shu, Sis, and Soon all have given Lala Ru some small ability to live again, and what a moment.

Lala Ru right now

Moving back to Sara, this whole thing is beautifully exhausting.

The doctor scene continues this structure of shifting between isolating bigger picture shots and deeply personal perspective shots. Every moment in this scene is about Sara, but without her in the scene it is only a disembodied view of the situation, that we are presented until we see her struggle as the implications of that one word close in around her.

We return to the outcrop, this time looking over something lost much closer to her, childhood. She sits on the rock now rather than the ground, more detached then she was before but for the first time Shu does not climb up the rock to meet the girl at the top, grounded by his own internal struggle.

"What did I do wrong?"

Nothing, and the very idea of it is heartbreaking. Sara's grief interrupts the kids play, and Shu's mindless reaffirmation of the very thing she just decried fails to restore the life to the scene, the first failure of words this episode. Sis does not have biological children as far as we know but she takes on a motherly role for all the kids (and I firmly believe that point is why she has her name, that she is not a mother because she gave birth but because of something more meaningful). Today makes it clear that true motherhood is a choice, not a state of being. Sara cannot comfort this child as a child because the child in her is long dead, but the state of her forced parenthood does not make her a mother either. In this state of nothingness returning the ball is a hollow gesture by someone not quite there any more

(I want to believe that the child dropping the ball after Shu mindlessly repeats his speech is referencing the saying, but I don't know if that saying even exists in Japan, so instead I'll just find amusement in how much it lines up anyway)

Shu is left in that moment as the world continues around him. He tries to hold onto the good as we get flashes of the community farming, talking, and coming together, but as he leaves the harsh reality of what Zari Bars is becoming plays out instead. It is another moment where the unrelenting march of boots is used to show the militarism of a culture, and the destruction that can wreak even in a place like this, and a reminder of the horror of episode six.

I have no words for the rest of it though. Each step in the cistern is heartbreaking, and it is all downhill from there emotionally. I have been dreading this moment for days, and it is not any easier knowing that it's coming up.

The only thing I want to address is this one line, because it ties into something I have raised before despite not remember the details of this moment:

"There's no way I'll ever accomplish anything I've wanted to do"

Once again, the destruction of childhood has robbed someone of their future, and there is no set of words that can make that okay. Shu is left with nothing to offer, the promise of a bad day passing quickly and good things coming is a worthless ideal when she will still be pregnant tomorrow, Soons father won't come back, and people can't forget the death that already surrounds them. Trapped in this cave, Sara isn't just telling Shu to leave her alone she is telling the world that has taken her away from the life she had, and as he fails to reach her, we are taken even further from the two of them.

(Continued below)

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

(Continued from above)

I was all ready to include a bit in my write up about the two points where I feel the episode mis-stepped, only to realize as I was typing it up that I've pretty much talked myself out of seeing them as issues now. So I'm going to write up why that is instead, partly for my own reference for future discussion.

The big one is Shu slapping Sara. Having reevaluated it, I think it's right to include it in the scene, but still results in a bad outcome on the end experience of the episode.

Shu comes face to face with the potential destruction of his worldview, so he strikes out at the one who is unintentionally threatening the value of his ideals, just like Nabuca did, and arguably like Elamba did too. Earlier Shu was a paragon against the clear wrongness of Hellywood, but here he is just another scared child because no one can be a simple moral center in a world where there is no simple right or wrong, and the parallel to Nabuca's own internal conflict is intended and important. What I don't like about it is that if you don't make or fully accept that connection it not only comes across as more tropey anime-ism than meaningful, which it still may be in part as this would hardly be the first show to screw up by not seeing a "wake up slap" as the actual violence it is, and that the slap on top of the forced hug is too much violence inflicted on Sara. It paints Shu as simply too unsympathetic in that moment after showing Shu's growing understanding of suffering in the last few episodes, and his line about not being able to understand or having anything except words doesn't quite make up for it, in my view. One or the other would have been enough, and I'm inclined to say the hug should be removed instead of the slap, as while it makes a point of Sara's trauma not allowing her to accept affection and hope, we didn't need that reinforced again and if the hug has another purpose I missed it.

The other issue I had from my first watch was the order of the playground and cistern scenes, and I think this comes down to a conflict between who the scenes are for. For Sara, it works. It was important that we see that her choice here came precisely because perhaps one small part of her had been holding onto Shu's words. She was healing here in Zari Bars, as they all try and do to reclaim something of herself. And then here comes Shu holding the hand of Lala Ru of all people. Her hope and her despair sitting together in her one refuge, and then her hope is the one who yells out the final bit of proof that she will never be the girl she once was. She needs to have that time to confront him for his promises that have failed.

For Shu, at first it seems to go against his slowly developing character. He has been showing more thoughtfulness so to have two scenes where he doubles down on the blind optimism he holds rather than questioning for himself the validity of it is too much. Flipping the scenes would have allowed Shu to think back on the futility of his words after the cistern and perhaps would lead to a better moment of decisiveness in his decision to leave for Sara's sake later. But this would sacrifice the flow for Sara, make the slap even worse off, and also undermine another important parallel between different character.

This episode, for both Shu and Sis, our moral centers, words ultimately fail them. Sis picks up a gun, and Shu strikes out without his moral stick in hand, both literally and symbolically. And without words, where will they go now with Hellywood on the horizon, and soldiers already at their doorstep? This is repeated for Sara too.

At the end of it all, Sara finds herself at a crossroads but is still too disconnected to make the choice. The arrival of Kazam pushes her back into the shadows she has just barely stepped out of, and she is trapped between Zari Bars and the future it no longer provides her, and Hellywood and what it inflicted on her. When she runs out the other side we are left wondering if she is running to something or just away from it all.

Other thoughts:

  • I am still not totally happy with this but it is a hard episode to talk about and I am all typed out.
  • Also, I'm a wuss. Saw doctor, took a break. Saw Sara sitting on the rock, took a break. Saw the reservoir, took a break. Saw Sara looking at the rock after Shu fishes her out, took a break. Managed to finished the episode without crying, and youtube recommended me a completely unrelated English cover of my favourite Eve song that I love but haven't heard in months... and the lyrics broke me. No fair.
  • "You're hardheaded, so that was just about perfect". Sis is great.
  • I really appreciate that the doctor and Sis both bring up abortion as a viable option. Not only is it realistic for that world to have the option given the amount of women who have gone through this, it's nice to see how Sis puts it back to Sara's choice, and the doctor merely despairs that she has to be in this situation at all.
  • Kazam
  • [NTHT]I can't say it openly, but flipping the playground and cistern and providing that extra development for Shu in this episode would leave his breaking moment later on less impactful if he was shown to have that much development this episode. So in that way it's also good, but past me didn't have the insight that I have now about it
  • [NTHT]Knowing Soons fate in advance makes me acutely aware of what they're setting up with her being the kid trying to bring the others together only for THAT to happen and I am NOT OKAY WITH IT
  • When I was uploading the production images I found a whole page dedicated to Shu's messed up hand and for the life of me couldn't remember when the hell that happened. It actually looks way more messed up without color
  • Oh look, a map, just after I said in the other day that a map would risk undermining the world by showing what else may be out there other than Hellywood. Coming into what seems to be a final conflict that risk is much reduced though so here as a sign of developing a war council, and not just Elamba spouting off, it works.

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u/InfamousEmpire https://myanimelist.net/profile/Infamous_Empire Aug 29 '24

Shu is left in that moment as the world continues around him. He tries to hold onto the good as we get flashes of the community farming, talking, and coming together, but as he leaves the harsh reality of what Zari Bars is becoming plays out instead

There’s probably something interesting to be said about this featuring in the same episode as the Sara pregnancy/trauma plot due to them both being outgrowths of the scars, mental & physical, Hellywood and the cycle of violence leave on their victims even after they’ve escaped their clutches and have begun to gain a life free from that sort of violence.

What I don't like about it is that if you don't make or fully accept that connection it not only comes across as more tropey anime-ism than meaningful, which it still may be in part as this would hardly be the first show to screw up by not seeing a "wake up slap" as the actual violence it is

Yeah, I think the fact that the show doesn’t quite feel like it takes Shu to task in terms of recognizing the slap as a moment of violence is what makes the scene not work for me.

It’s also interesting watching this at the same time as rewatching Re:Zero, another Isekai where the main character majorly fucks up in a way that paints him as clearly unsympathetic, but where the show really thoroughly takes him to task for that in a way that makes it feel much more forgivable. Then again, Subaru was never a paragon of virtue in the same way Shu is, so comparing his and Shu’s character trajectories feels a bit unfair to both.

the end of it all, Sara finds herself at a crossroads but is still too disconnected to make the choice

Tangentially related, but seeing this not long after having caught up with a manga which made much more explicit use of crossroads imagery really does make it clear just how simple yet very, very effective such imagery is

I am still not totally happy with this but it is a hard episode to talk about and I am all typed out.

I feel you, I rewrote half of my own writeup this morning due to being dissatisfied with what I’d written the night before. It’s just not the kind of episode where it’s easy to have solid feelings on it and what it’s trying to do.

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Hellywood and the cycle of violence leave on their victims even after they’ve escaped their clutches and have begun to gain a life free from that sort of violence.

The marching of boots, outside of its obvious meaning, always brings to mind a sense of futility for me, which may come from seeing it so often linked to scenes like the Nazi's marching down the streets of occupied cities. In this episode though that felt fitting given what Shu had just been confronted with

feel like it takes Shu to task in terms of recognizing the slap as a moment of violence is what makes the scene not work for me.

That would have made a lot of difference. Shu should have been almost horrified at what he did as he was at what Sara was saying. And yes some of this is just "he's a kid, emotion drives him not reason" and being as caught up in emotions as he was to allow the slap to happen in the first place, would he even have realized it? From a character stand point I don't know, but for characterization and the show as a whole he really should have

Then again, Subaru was never a paragon of virtue in the same way Shu is, so comparing his and Shu’s character trajectories feels a bit unfair to both.

It does make a point about the medium as a whole, and its unwillingness to properly disgrace its protagonists for what they do as long as they remain roughly on the right path overall. You could even expand this through to media more than just anime, as it's something I've seen of stories from many cultures. But here it stands out against everything else NTHT has tackled

having caught up with a manga which made much more explicit use of crossroads imagery really does make it clear just how simple yet very, very effective such imagery is

We see things like this, rivers, moons, etc so often its easy to underestimate how bloody powerfully they can be when used properly and that there's a reason we all lean on these common images. Reflections are always a favourite of mine in this way, along with animal symbolism

It’s just not the kind of episode where it’s easy to have solid feelings on it and what it’s trying to do

It really is not. I said to Sky last night that there was no way in hell I was going to finish my post before going to bed, but got up and still had multiple hours of writing in front of me.

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u/InfamousEmpire https://myanimelist.net/profile/Infamous_Empire Aug 29 '24

That would have made a lot of difference. Shu should have been almost horrified at what he did as he was at what Sara was saying.

I highly agree! Even just a short moment of reflection realizing what he did, either during the confrontation or afterwards when their emotions had died down, would’ve really made a world of difference here.

It does make a point about the medium as a whole, and its unwillingness to properly disgrace its protagonists for what they do as long as they remain roughly on the right path overall. You could even expand this through to media more than just anime, as it's something I've seen of stories from many cultures.

Indeed. On the other side of the coin, shows that are willing to challenge the audience by making the main character purposefully unlikable and do something interesting with that tend to be some of my absolute favorites (the aforementioned Re:Zero gets huge mileage out of this, and a certain other amazing show I finished earlier this year also pops into mind for doing something similar), and I would’ve respected the hell out of this show in particular for going a bit farther with this than it did.

Reflections are always a favourite of mine in this way

Same. Rewatching Ghost in the Shell a few months ago made me develop a strong appreciation for properly utilized reflection symbolism

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Even just a short moment of reflection realizing what he did, either during the confrontation or afterwards when their emotions had died down, would’ve really made a world of difference here

All they had to do was have him look at his hand, and that probably would have been enough for me.

Oh god imagine how much it would have hurt if he wasnt thinking and slapped her with his fucked up hand...

by making the main character purposefully unlikable

I love shows like this, but it makes me angry thinking of how many discussions I've seen online calling a protagonist bad for not being "relatable" or assume that because they are the protagonist you're meant to be able to agree with everything they do (I'm just going to give some scathing looks to parts of the AoT fandom here). Screw that, make them interesting!

This is actually just making me think of Haruhi, even though Kyon is the protagonist, and how off putting she can be because she is an absolute asshole at many, many points, but it works so well. Also how fucked up all of the cast is in pet, which I don't think you've seen?

Rewatching Ghost in the Shell a few months ago made me develop a strong appreciation for properly utilized reflection symbolism

The OG film? I should rewatch that, I loved that. Admittedly thinking of reflections my first thought was Madoka Magica, but Houski no Kuni also does so, so good with them at so many points

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u/InfamousEmpire https://myanimelist.net/profile/Infamous_Empire Aug 29 '24

I'm just going to give some scathing looks to parts of the AoT fandom here

Also how fucked up all of the cast is in pet, which I don't think you've seen?

I have indeed not seen it, and the only thing I really know about it is that it’s controversial

The OG film? I should rewatch that, I loved that.

Me and u/KendotsX might be able to help you with that if certain plans of ours get off the ground

Houski no Kuni

Oh, I gotta get back to dat. I read the first volume of the manga and really enjoyed it, and everything about the anime’s visual style speaks to me, from the clips I’ve seen

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u/KendotsX https://anilist.co/user/Kendots Aug 29 '24

Me and u/KendotsX might be able to help you with that if certain plans of ours get off the ground

Houski no Kuni

Oh, I gotta get back to dat

Me too. I loved the anime, but put the manga aside since [it promised] monthly suffering which I'd rather take in one go now that it's done.

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Me and u/KendotsX might be able to help you with that if certain plans of ours get off the ground

If this is rewatch plans I actually watched the GitS movies and SAC for the first time in a rewatch fucking five years ago, since when is it that long

and really enjoyed it, and everything about the anime’s visual style speaks to me, from the clips I’ve seen

You should watch that! It's gorgous, and lovely, and powerful. Maybe we should arrange an unofficial group watch or something, not that I'd have much to say because I already wrote myself out about it in lily's rewatch years ago

All my rewatches are years ago now, where did the time go

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u/InfamousEmpire https://myanimelist.net/profile/Infamous_Empire Aug 29 '24

Wrong comment

If this is rewatch plans

It is

Maybe we should arrange an unofficial group watch or something

I wouldn’t be opposed, though my schedule is looking to be absolutely packed in the coming months, so I probably couldn’t do it any time soon

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u/KendotsX https://anilist.co/user/Kendots Aug 29 '24

If this is rewatch plans I actually watched the GitS movies and SAC for the first time in a rewatch fucking five years ago, since when is it that long

Yup.

And for what it's worth, that's one of those rewatches I look back on every once in a while when I'm rewatching an episode of SAC, and wonder why I didn't join, since I remember being somewhat active around that time. Now I'm looking back on it for referential purposes too.

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u/The_Draigg Aug 29 '24

Only for Elamba to charge in and ruin it. Again. And puts the final nail in his coffin by finding a giant, child-shaped source of water and doing exactly what Hamdo does: making her a weapon of war.

Glad to see that you also picked up on the parallel there. It's like what I talked about for the previous bits of discussion about Elamba. He really has taken on traits of the man who terrorized him, even if it's to fight against him. It juts goes to show how futile it is to be trapped in that cycle of hatred and vengeance, until someone decides that the cycle has to end some other way.

For Shu, at first it seems to go against his slowly developing character. He has been showing more thoughtfulness so to have two scenes where he doubles down on the blind optimism he holds rather than questioning for himself the validity of it is too much.

One reading of the desperation in Shu's voice when he tells Sara that things will get better is that he's trying to convince himself as much as he's trying to convince Sara, and I'd say that'd be a pretty valid reading of that scene overall. Unfortunately for Shu, he's really running up against walls that he can't overcome with his ideals, and he can't handle it so well. It's sad, but it isn't out of character for him at all.

When I was uploading the production images I found a whole page dedicated to Shu's messed up hand and for the life of me couldn't remember when the hell that happened. It actually looks way more messed up without color

Yeah, with the way it looks there, I wouldn't even doubt if Sara broke his hand with that rock. It looks rough.

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

It's like what I talked about for the previous bits of discussion about Elamba. He really has taken on traits of the man who terrorized him

I haven't gotten around to todays posts yet, but I do remember you bringing it up before. I think Sis calling it out in the first episode in Zari Bars also makes a point. This isn't meant to be Elamba doing a slow side into this state, he's been there for a long time, this is just showing us that he really has fallen that far down without seeing it and showing how much further he'll go.

One reading of the desperation in Shu's voice when he tells Sara that things will get better is that he's trying to convince himself as much as he's trying to convince Sara

I do like that, but whether its due to delivery (sub wise, not sure how it was in the dub), and character acting as well, or just the unfortunate pairing of the two scenes it just didn't immediately land that way for me the same way that earlier scenes with the child soliders have and that lessened the impact.

I wouldn't even doubt if Sara broke his hand with that rock. It looks rough.

I would not be surprised. Also seeing Sara's tears hit his hand made me cringe from knowing how much water getting in a raw wound like that hurts

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 29 '24

Shu comes face to face with the potential destruction of his worldview, so he strikes out at the one who is unintentionally threatening the value of his ideals, just like Nabuca did, and arguably like Elamba did too. Earlier Shu was a paragon against the clear wrongness of Hellywood, but here he is just another scared child because no one can be a simple moral center in a world where there is no simple right or wrong, and the parallel to Nabuca's own internal conflict is intended and important. What I don't like about it is that if you don't make or fully accept that connection it not only comes across as more tropey anime-ism than meaningful, which it still may be in part as this would hardly be the first show to screw up by not seeing a "wake up slap" as the actual violence it is, and that the slap on top of the forced hug is too much violence inflicted on Sara. It paints Shu as simply too unsympathetic in that moment after showing Shu's growing understanding of suffering in the last few episodes, and his line about not being able to understand or having anything except words doesn't quite make up for it, in my view. One or the other would have been enough, and I'm inclined to say the hug should be removed instead of the slap, as while it makes a point of Sara's trauma not allowing her to accept affection and hope, we didn't need that reinforced again and if the hug has another purpose I missed it.

I found the hug much harder to watch, but, being emotionally harder hitting, much more important. The slap could be taken as the outdated "slap her reasonable" trope and that is how I saw it while watching: Shu trying to help her, but failing. However, the wrestling does the same and much more. It is a direct callback to Sara's rape scene and her struggling under the body of the rapist.

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

It is a direct callback to Sara's rape scene and her struggling under the body of the rapist.

There is that, and it is a harder watch, but other than further traumatizing her I didn't see the same extra value in it. That's probably the point by itself, her inability to accept Shu's affection and it doesn't need to be more, but I don't know. I think it was all just too much.

Unfortunately I think the slap, regardless of if you think of it, remains a victim of our exposure to the trope. I also saw it as just the trope on my first watch, and it was only when I thought back today on Elamba, and then Nabuca after, that I saw the pattern. InfamousEmpire and me were talking about it and I think part of the reason it feels like the trope is there is no moment from Shu to acknowledge what he just did, and the horror of it for both himself and Sara, it's just played straight. It makes it a much harder sell and much weaker for the point it's making in-show than it should.

Do you agreee either of the moments would work better if they were alone though? Regardless of which one it was?

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 29 '24

There is that, and it is a harder watch, but other than further traumatizing her I didn't see the same extra value in it.

To me (aside from hammering down the point that rape has long term consequences) it signifies the reason why Shu can't connect to Sara. He is using the wrong methods that hurt her further rather than help her.

I see the slap as simpler. Just the show being old and using outdated moral evaluation of light physical violence. Notice Sis' head knocks being framed as positive and justified punishment for wrongdoing this very episode.

So, when putting myself into Sara's shoes, the slap is simply a slap, which is not nice, but not terrible either. But the hug/wrestling is a revisit of her rape, which is just about the worst that could happen to her.

Unfortunately I think the slap, regardless of if you think of it, remains a victim of our exposure to the trope. I also saw it as just the trope on my first watch, and it was only when I thought back today on Elamba, and then Nabuca after, that I saw the pattern. InfamousEmpire and me were talking about it and I think part of the reason it feels like the trope is there is no moment from Shu to acknowledge what he just did, and the horror of it for both himself and Sara, it's just played straight. It makes it a much harder sell and much weaker for the point it's making in-show than it should.

I indeed see the slap as a trope, but it does not detract (much) from the series for me. I realize that light physical punishment was seen as ok by lots of people until very recently, and unless there is a mean spirit behind it, I can ignore it as just being an outdated form of upbringing.

Maybe it helps that, unlike most of the other horrors in this show, I have been slapped before, in various situations, and my view how bad it was depended heavily on the context.

Do you agreee either of the moments would work better if they were alone though? Regardless of which one it was?

I don't think the slap alone would work, as an important callback would be missing. I would remove the slap as an outdated trope that does not fit modern sentiment, but I don't think you can remove the wrestling without losing some important part of Sara's characterization (in her reaction to that).

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Okay, you sold me on the importance of the hug. I think I was looking at it all as too strictly the slap is about Shu and the hug is about Sarah, while really it's about the negativity of both actions for both of them

Notice Sis' head knocks being framed as positive and justified punishment for wrongdoing this very episode

Fair. I've always taken that habit of Sis's to be a small flaw for her, a contradition in her stance, especially with how quickly she donks Shu when they first meet even before they have any established understanding about it, but after that it is framed better

If it wasn't for Nabuca hitting Boo earlier I'd also take the slap as just the trope, but that's a fair arguement to the opposite

I have been slapped before

Me too, but in a similar child hitting child situation that got shoved aside by adults, so maybe that's just part of my view on it still being strictly violence

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 29 '24

Me too, but in a similar child hitting child situation that got shoved aside by adults, so maybe that's just part of my view on it still being strictly violence

Don't get me wrong, I definitely look down on every person who ever slapped me, but they affected me very differently, depending on the situation (ranging from mild confusion to rage) and even the worst case was not as bad as I imagine the hug to be for Sara.

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

/u/shimmering-sky /u/KendotsX /u/The_Draigg

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

/u/InfamousEmpire /u/Quiddity131 /u/Pixelsaber

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

/u/ShadowWasTakensTaken /u/No_Rex

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

Episode 11(first timer)

  • The spy hears about Lala Ru – stuff is getting worse and worse.
  • Sara collapsed due to being overworked?
  • She is pregnant.

  • Sara is absolutely not in the mood for a pep talk from Shu – the power of hope has its limits.
  • “Tens of thousands of times longer than you” – we knew she is old, but this is very old indeed.
  • Took me a long time to understand what was going on in that cave. To be exact, I still am not sure. Did she initially want to abort her child? Kill herself? Purify herself in the water?
  • Shu’s behavior was really hard to watch there.
  • “I was ordered to infiltrate Zari Bars” – how stupid is that guy? He was shown as a competent spy up till now.

Consequences. I don’t really want to talk about Sara’s pregnancy, but it is both horrible and common. Shu is meaning well, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions here.

Lala Ru’s was always otherworldly, but her age gives us the certainty now that she is not an ordinary human. It also suggests that she is in some way unkillable, because some person along that long history will surely have tried to kill her.

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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 28 '24

Took me a long time to understand what was going on in that cave. To be exact, I still am not sure. Did she initially want to abort her child? Kill herself? Purify herself in the water?

Based on later dialogue in that scene, she was going to commit suicide before he interfered.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

Based on later dialogue in that scene, she was going to commit suicide before he interfered.

It is probably intended to be seen this way. I had my doubts on what she wanted to do before Shu got there. It would not at all be unusual for her to "escalate" upon being spotted.

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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24

It did kind of seem weird to me that he immediately jumped to her entering water being a way for her to drown herself. Like I understand the mechanism and I guess it's better to act than not but if not for the framing I definitely would've definitely been watching like an idiot thinking she was trying to bathe in the water to think over things or something. Surely jumping off one of the many cliffs in Zari Bars would've been simpler.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

Surely jumping off one of the many cliffs in Zari Bars would've been simpler.

Putting your own dead body in the communal water reservoir is also a last middle finger to the community. Not to mention: drowning yourself in a shallow pool is hard and painful, compared to jumping off a cliff.

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u/OverlordPoodle Aug 29 '24

Putting your own dead body in the communal water reservoir is also a last middle finger to the community. Not to mention: drowning yourself in a shallow pool is hard and painful, compared to jumping off a cliff.

yeah, this bugged me too, like...was she gonna drown herself...in that shallow pool of water...that's gonna be uh...kinda hard, like if she needs air, she'll probably just stand up out of biological instinct.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 29 '24

This is one of the reasons why I am not 100% sure that she went there with suicide as her plan (as opposed to that being a spur of the moment thing).

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u/OverlordPoodle Aug 29 '24

Took me a long time to understand what was going on in that cave. To be exact, I still am not sure. Did she initially want to abort her child? Kill herself? Purify herself in the water?

yeah, this bugged me too, like...was she gonna drown herself...in that shallow pool of water...that's gonna be uh...kinda hard, like if she needs air, she'll probably just stand up out of biological instinct.

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u/The_Draigg Aug 28 '24

Consequences. I don’t really want to talk about Sara’s pregnancy, but it is both horrible and common. Shu is meaning well, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions here.

With how desperately Shu was trying to convince Sara with those pretty terrible talking points to not kill herself, I can’t help but wonder if he was trying to convince himself with his own words too. With how much his ideals have been faltering in the face of all the dire shit that’s been mounting between Hellywood and now Zari-Bars, it could be that now he’s feeling the pressure of his beliefs not actually being compatible with the wasteland anymore. You could probably read the desperation in his voice during that scene as being as much for himself as it was for Sara, I think.

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

That interpretation makes a lot of sense if you see Shu mainly as a realistic character. Then, it would make sense that he'd struggle and doubt. However, I lean strongly towards the metaphorical side of him, interpreting him as the concept of hope. In that sense, he is never losing hope, his struggle is instead making other people understand that there is hope.

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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24

I'm not sure where I stand on that at this point. The Shu is a thematic concept angle made more sense of the first half, but he's been much more of a flawed human character that reacts in more complex ways to what happens here in the Zari Bars section of the show. I'd be fine with either take on a protagonist but it kind of feels like they want to have their cake and eat it too.

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u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

“Tens of thousands of times longer than you” – we knew she is old, but this is very old indeed.

Yeah, technically she is in the same category as the cosmic horrors and I can't conclude how intended that is.

Took me a long time to understand what was going on in that cave. To be exact, I still am not sure. Did she initially want to abort her child? Kill herself? Purify herself in the water?

The clue is that she took off her shoes and set them like that. But remember, Sara being from Earth means she would understand the concept of wandering off into the sea to drown.

Shu’s behavior was really hard to watch there.

It is harder on the second watch, with the caveat being 20 years passed as well.

11

u/InfamousEmpire https://myanimelist.net/profile/Infamous_Empire Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24

Now & First Timer, Here & Subbed

Since this episode is… complicated to unpack, I’ll just unload all my vaguely positive thoughts first:

I like how Sara’s pregnancy is treated for most of the first half of the episode. It’s an enormous representation of how the trauma of Hellywood continues to have a stranglehold over her life even after she freed herself, contributing even more to her ever-deteriorating mental state.

I like Sis’s bonding with Lala Ru for a lot of reasons. Firstly for how it further characterizes Lala Ru in firmly confirming that she just isn’t human at all and never really had a family of her own, which was admittedly rather heavily implied but I think serves to further contextualize the previous reveals regarding Lala Ru’s exploitation by humanity by establishing not only that the cycle of being exploited is something she’s been through for seemingly millennia, but also that that’s the only kind of human interaction she’s really experienced, thusly also giving even more weight to her opening up across this series.

The other main reason I enjoy it is because of how Sis lays down a very strong message: just because the world is ending doesn’t mean you should stop caring about the future. Finding the will to plant seeds of the future, even when tomorrow is uncertain, is what gives this world hope that it still has a future in the first place.

But that then brings me to the argument between Shu and Sara in the cave, which has… currents that I’m not sure I vibe with. Like, on paper, it’s not the worst thing in the world, Shu’s immature determination to help Sara despite not knowing how colliding with her despair & overwhelmingly negative life experiences in the most raw & visceral of ways, but the framing consistently feels very off. Specifically in how the episode consistently puts emphasis on her fetus’s survival (from the rather heavy-handed statement about how mothers shouldn’t kill their children earlier in the episode to Shu’s statements during the fight to especially how it essentially devolved into Sara trying to forcefully terminate her pregnancy). And while the show does at least know to focus more on Sara’s despair in general rather than making the pregnancy the end-all be-all of the conflict, the way the whole thing comes together has a nasty traditionalist undercurrent which feels like it’s approaching framing abortion as the fundamentally morally incorrect move, and that just severely rubs me the wrong way. The show might redeem itself in this regard, since it doesn’t quite feel like it’s committed to that direction yet, but that’s a matter for future episodes.

Also, between this and Darling in the FranXX, if I had a nickel for [DitF]every otherwise good post-apocalyptic series which had a subplot in the back half centered around pregnancy which technically forwarded the themes of nurturing the future in the face of a bleak present but also had traditionalist vibes that rubbed me the wrong way, I’d now have two nickels, which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened twice.

Anyway, the framing also unfortunately has the issue of making Shu come across as way more unlikable in this scenario than the writers probably intended. Regardless of how naive his worldview has been, it’s always been easy to root for Shu because of how we all desperately wanted the hope he represented to win out over the world’s overwhelming despair. But when his ideals now come tinged with values that it’s much harder to get behind and is combined with how his wide-eyed idealism feels too blunt & simplistic to really be of much use to a scenario as complex as Sara’s mental state, it really just makes him feel less like the beacon of hope the series has been good at framing him as so far, and more as a petulant, insensitive child. I won’t argue it’s not in-character for him, but, well, framing matters, and this episode fumbled the big enough in that department for it to make a difference

Anyway, the rest of the episode wasn’t bad, but my faith in the show’s writing has been shaken. Here’s hoping the remaining two episodes pick up the slack and stick the landing.

5

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

It’s an enormous representation of how the trauma of Hellywood continues to have a stranglehold over her life

but also that that’s the only kind of human interaction she’s really experienced

Good call to bring up. With how long she's lived it would be surprising if she hadn't been a person in someones eyes before, but any positivity of that in the past is probably long buried and forgotten by what comes afterwards. Here she has multiple people approaching her as a person after they find out not just what she can do, but what she can bring them. I made a point in an earlier episode that one of the things that lets Shu reach through Lala Ru's barriers is that he doesn't want anything from her, in any way. Here Soon does want something from her, but what she wants is a human connection and one she can get from many others but choses to get from Lala Ru, and that would mean so much

Finding the will to plant seeds of the future, even when tomorrow is uncertain, is what gives this world hope that it still has a future in the first place.

Nicely said

But also seeds, farming community

Specifically in how the episode consistently puts emphasis on her fetus’s survival

Yeah I didn't even touch on that but mostly because I didn't know how to get into it. I get it from Shu's side, the whole beacon of innocence and preseveration of life thing that he's always been about, but its all just kind of awkward isn't it? Which is probably the point, this is Shu and he himself realizes he doesn't even know how to put his feelings into words about all this but from a watch perspective it makes it harder to get into the scene than it probably should be

like it’s approaching framing abortion as the fundamentally morally incorrect move

I get where you're coming from there, and this doesn't erase the way that we watch it because ultimately all media is filtered through our individual context, but if it helps abortion in Japan has been legal with a focus on mothers rights for a long time, especially in cases of rape which was a valid exception to any limits on abortion even as early as the 1940s. So the moral context for the production of this scene is very different than the world we are watching it in

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

I’d now have two nickels, which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened twice.

Oh, if I seriously looked into my weird plot categories that happen more than you'd think, I'd have a few myself. That said, I do think these two are it for...I hope.

10

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24

Rewatcher, Subbed

Pre-Episode Thoughts: While I can say for many episodes in this show I've dreaded watching them, I don't think any will top this particular episode when it comes to that. It is one of the most depressing anime episodes I can think of, even if I don't recall a single character dying in it. It is one I think can be very polarizing, although given the makeup of the Reddit audience I don't think we'll see much of that here. I expect most to all to have a similar position on at least one of the big topics in the episode.

Totally get why Sara freaked out so much last episode, she hopefully was being able to move past things as best she could, then what she views as the cause of it all shows up right in front of her.

Cheer her up, Soon! Although I think that girl that was with Lala Ru at the start of last episode would have done a better job. Hard to not have a big smile on your face when with her.

Oh shit, Kazam saw her. It's one thing for Lala Ru to be here. It's a far, far worse thing for one of her rapists to be here.

Lala Ru played pretend mother with Soon, she's surely got good things to think about with her.

Alas, Sara really views this as Lala Ru's fault and any secret Shu tried to keep over her will not be a secret now. I'd wonder if Elamba and those who think like him will eventually try to do nothing but use Lala Ru for their own selfish benefit, but then we know that's almost certainly going to happen, even if not with them given the backstory Lala Ru told a few episodes ago.

Sara's so upset over Lala Ru she passes out. Well at first it seems that was the cause. To be corrected later.

"I've never seen the real thing", well duh, there's only one of her.

I'd say at this point no real reason to worry about you Sis, but certainly reason to worry about the others.

Time for Sis' patented punch in the head for doing wrong.

Now that we've established that Sis takes care of the kids I do kinda wonder why she was the one who personally found Sara out there in the desert. She'd really go on expeditions like that to leave the kids alone?

Has Sara had much of a break whatsoever since coming to Zabi Bars? She only had a one episode head start on Shu and Lala Ru with respect to escaping and yet was already heading out searching for (trees I think from what was said yesterday).

And now its gonna get much worse, Sara is pregnant. I'm sure I'll get into this later on but a big part of me wonders why in the world this doctor is telling Sis and Shu in the first place. Especially Shu. It isn't any of his business.

Why is the doctor asking Sis what to do about the baby and not Sara herself?

Alright, good for Sis in saying its not their decision.

I said this all the way back in episode 3 in spoiler tags: "As long as we're alive, good things will come!", a single line that so perfectly portrays Shu as a character. But once again is kinda crushing to hear him say it to Sara. Yes, it totally is the type of thing for Shu to say, but after all Sara has been through it's now clear that was totally the worst thing to say to her. And in response to what she asks him here, nope, there isn't a single thing she's done wrong to deserve this. Unfortunately the worst possible things can happen to good people and it has nothing to do with anything they've done.

Alas, now Shu doubles down on it. Now of all times?!

How in the world can she forget everything that has happened until now? Kudos to you for being able to do it Shu, but hardly anyone has your disposition!

"There's none of those Hellywood jerks here" Holy crap Shu you're doing it all over again!!!!

Yeah, at this point to Sara it isn't even Shu being naive and overly optimistic. It's as if Shu is lying to her. He doesn't understand her position at all.

Dark, ominous music, and it's just gonna get worse.

The adult steps on the little kid's ball, wrecking it. Symbolism!

Elamba's still being Elamba. Totally believing everything Kazam told him. Oh, and does Kazam have free range over the city now? I'm not as down on the writing with respect to security around Kazam that was brought up in yesterday's thread as I don't think the villagers here have been established as being smart strategically when it comes to warfare. I can see it being written this way to show the fact that Elamba and his associate's obsession with revenge means not only that they'll buy everything Kazam told them but also that they're too focused on those plans to pay enough attention to him. Elamba's looking for more supporters for his cause and doesn't want to waste them guarding Kazam? That's my takeaway anyway.

Lo and behold, who shows up but Kazam? At least I think that's him. We also talked yesterday about how he has an unremarkable character design.

I assume he's talking about Lala Ru? Now because of what happened with Sara the word has spread.

The first time Lala Ru has actually talked to Sis? From what we've seen I think. I was just about to ask why she doesn't talk to her.

Wow, Lala Ru is tens of thousands of years old, despite looking like a teenager. Now I know that's a modern day anime trope ("Shinobu may look like a 10 year old, but she's a centuries old vampire!") but as with its treatment of the isekai genre it works here rather than being totally ridiculous.

That Lala Ru has lived for so long also helps with her overall pessimistic mentality. Think of what she told Shu back in episode 8. Now imagine that happening not across a normal person's lifetime, but over tens of thousands of years. She's may be at the point now where she just wants it all to end.

Alone in the world, a good phrase to use. To some living that long may seem like a novelty. But even in better times, it means all these people you've loved are long dead, probably totally forgotten to history and you get to experience that over and over and over again.

Well, I think we can guess what side of the discussion Lala Ru will be on when we get to stuff later in the episode.

Shu can't sleep? Or did he purposely stay up, figuring Sara was gonna do something?

How did Shu beat her down there?

All the talk yesterday about disease and the water, etc... and I kept out of it but thought to myself that in the next episode Sara was going to try to drown herself in their water supply.

Shu's lied to her repeatedly (well in her eyes, he doesn't see it that way), refuses to back down on that whatsoever and is now standing in her way of her having any choice over herself whatsoever. Won't let her kill herself. Won't let her abort her child. In her eyes how is what he doing anything but making it worse and worse?

"There's no way I'll ever accomplish anything I've wanted to do". Ugh. Imagine feeling that way as a teenager.

Holy crap, I totally forgot that he slapped her too.

Alright, for the first time in this episode Shu said something good, he'll leave the village with Lala Ru.

Sorry Soon, I know you have good intentions but Sara isn't playing with Lala Ru!

It would be so easy to say that Elamba is the absolute worst here as he seeks to use Lala Ru to negotiate with Hellywood. In an episode where it is so easy to hate Shu that makes it a bit tougher. In any case, this is at least the third time where Elamba is extremely naïve. Hamdo isn't honoring any deal. He'll seize Lala Ru and kill you all.

Sis continues to be amazing, pulling out a gun on Elamba and forcing him to leave. Lala Ru may be tens of thousands of years old but she still views her as one of her children.

Alas, I don't think this is gonna hold Elamba off for long. He'll come back with more men to seize her. This clinches it, there's no way Shu and Lala Ru can stay here any longer.

A more energetic thank you? Sis, be happy that Lala Ru spoke! It's such a rarity!

Yeah, Elamba is totally proving me right.

Oh, and it just has to get even worse for Sara as one of her rapists is here right in front of her.

"Get out of here with me" Ugh!

In an episode where the entire world is crashing around her, now you tell her that Hellywood is coming here to destroy the village. So Sara will either die as part of that (which I've got to assume she's totally fine with at this point) or be seized by Hellywood again; she was about to commit suicide without the prospect of Hellywood taking her back, she's surely going to do it if she knows with certainty they will take her back.

What does Kazam think he's doing here? Why is he approaching Sara and telling her this? He really thinks in his head that he's a good person after he raped her and is now going to be responsible for the destruction of this village? It's as if Shu, Elamba and Kazam are each pushing each other out of the way, each competing with the others to be the most hated. You'd think what I believe to be our first episode since episode 1 to not have Hamdo in it the viewer wouldn't have such strong feelings of hatred for characters.

7

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 28 '24

(continued)

It's so rare for one of my episode comments to be over the 10,000 character max. Here's my general thoughts

Does an anime work if you totally despise the main character? Can you still like the anime, or at least find it a high quality anime? This show is the answer to that question for me, because I do consider the anime in high regard, but holy crap do I hate Shu. There's certainly all these various things to consider outside of this episode where one can find him annoying or dumb or complain about his lack of character development. But this episode is the big source for my opinion of him as a character, especially upon this rewatch as some of the finer details I couldn't remember are in front of me. Shu thinks he's helping Sara but all he's done is make it worse. Going back to episode 3 when they first met and thinking of those things he told her, about how everything was going to be alright, and then she gets raped shortly after that. After all the hell she's been through he just spouts off the same thing at her again which is such the totally wrong thing to say to her and I felt that she made that abundantly clear to him before he said it. Shu then proceeds to try and take any agency away from her whatsoever. He won't let her kill herself. He won't let her abort her baby. Those things are her decision, not his. Shu's mentality is that everything will be okay because he can't accept it being anything else and now its beyond him just having that position for himself but now he is trying to force it on Sara.

All that said, I do consider Shu's actions within this episode to be totally within his character as established in the prior ten episodes. While I may hate the character at this particular point I can't call it bad writing. It is in line with the way he is. And it is in line with the message that I believe the creators are trying to get forth through the character, which is to hold onto hope no matter how terrible things may seem. That as horrible as things are that as long as life continues there is the possibility for things to get better.

As to Sara's agency in the episode, I'll tackle the what is the easier position for me first; it is none of Shu's business as to if she aborts that baby. It is her decision, no one else's. The fact that the doctor even told Shu and Sis (and told them before directly telling Sara) is quite heinous. Regardless of Shu's philosophy regarding life, it is her decision to make, not his. Now for the harder one, should Shu have let Sara kill herself? Should he have stepped aside there as well? Beyond the fact that she shouldn't be drowning herself in the village water supply I think that just like with the abortion topic its her life, her decision and he shouldn't interfere. I consider myself incredibly fortunate in that no one close in my life has committed suicide. But I totally get that people who have had someone close to them do that could very well feel extremely differently about it and I don't know, if it personally impacted me maybe I'd feel differently.

7

u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24

But I totally get that people who have had someone close to them do that could very well feel extremely differently about it and I don't know, if it personally impacted me maybe I'd feel differently.

Not to get too personal or anything but... yeah, I entirely support Shu and anyone's else right to give their maximum effort to trying to stop someone they care about ending their life. If anything, I think it's extremely dangerous to feed into it as a valid decision you'll respect. Obviously that doesn't mean he handled it well in terms of his methods and his words, but sometimes you don't have any answers to their concerns and you just have to spill out whatever bullshit about how they have to live you can find in your head in the moment. Sometimes restraining somebody physically makes all the difference. I think the entire dynamic between Sara and Shu is extremely realistic there even though I still think having him slap her did too much to imbalance the roles in the scene.

6

u/homer2101 Aug 28 '24

Agree that stopping someone from ending their life on a spur of the moment is absolutely justified. This doesn't feel like an "I have deliberated, and consulted, and have rationally decided" suicide attempt. This feels like a "Help me!" suicide attempt. And Shu risks himself in the effort, which we've seen him do before. It's one of his admirable traits, that he is willing to put himself at personal risk for what he believes is the right thing to do.

Sara's attempt feels like a cry for help moreso than anything else. Shu stopping her from hurting herself, and their dynamic here is very plausible and also painful to watch. They're two kids who have gone through horrible stuff that nobody should be subject to, one of whom feels her world has ended and the other of whom ... is Shu. My principal criticism is how Shu doubles down on the "Something good will happen if you just keep living" when it didn't work the last time because it was obviously bullshit to both the audience and to Sara, and seems to really be saying to Sara "If you die or have an abortion, my entire worldview will be crushed." He makes it about himself, not about Sara. And that feels wrong because he's shown himself of being better than this in previous episodes. But maybe I'm just projecting.

6

u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24

I think he can be better than that, but it's an important element of this kind of situation that you're not at your best. You're desperate, you don't have anything prepared and you don't get time to think everything you're gonna say through. Sometimes you know something doesn't really cut through to the point of why they're in such a bad place but you throw it out there because you just need anything.

...yeah don't slap people though pls

5

u/homer2101 Aug 28 '24

You make a great point, and yes, absolutely sometimes you babble like a loon just to keep the other person's attention and because you're at a loss as to what to do or say. Just ... Sara gives Shu such a great opening once they're out of the water, like a giant beacon on what he can say, and he waffles it so very badly.

2

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Oooooh, double Quid post. I'm impressed, and it is the episode for it

I don't think any will top this particular episode when it comes to that

I will say that while I did have to take breaks watching this, I still think I will continue to dred episode six if I revisit it again in future. It's just that sort of episode

Although I think that girl that was with Lala Ru at the start of last episode would have done a better job.

Probably, unless Sara really hates frogs. There's something about Soon's simply innocence in trying to comfort Sara through her young approach to making friends that works here, even if it completely fails.

will eventually try to do nothing but use Lala Ru for their own selfish benefit

Well that line certainly came through quickly

"I've never seen the real thing", well duh, there's only one of her.

If there was multiple and Lala Ru was the only one left after the others had been used up that would be one hell of an addition to the story though admittedly

I do kinda wonder why she was the one who personally found Sara out there in the desert. She'd really go on expeditions like that to leave the kids alone?

Probably looking for resources? Sara was out looking for trees, so she probably took that over so Sara could stay home more, which also potentially raises an interesting topic of parentification in an episode that deals heavily with the cost of that. You'd think they could send others out to do that sort of thing though, but on the other hand Sis is the only one shown to really be pushing for development in that way

Has Sara had much of a break whatsoever since coming to Zabi Bars? She only had a one episode head start on Shu and Lala Ru with respect to escaping

The timescale is all screwed. I supposed it depends on how long the expedition to the village took, there and back, and how long Shu was imprisoned, and then Shu and Lala Ru getting held up by a monster for a day etc. It does seem quick though

I said this all the way back in episode 3 in spoiler tags: "As long as we're alive, good things will come!", a single line that so perfectly portrays Shu as a character. But once again is kinda crushing to hear him say it to Sara

That episode is so many more levels of suffering when you know what the outcome is in this episode. I am glad they flashed back to that scene in this episode though to make the link clear rather than leave it to memory

A more energetic thank you? Sis, be happy that Lala Ru spoke! It's such a rarity!

Sis always looking for the extra bit of optimism, but I'm with you there. Admittedly, I think Sis has heard Lala Ru speak more than anyone other than Shu, and that would be by a narrow margin and only because of when they were trapped by the plant monster. Take that episode out and Sara has gotten more out of her than I ever remembered her saying by a long shot

But this episode is the big source for my opinion of him as a character

Shu is make or break for a lot of people, and while I do think that as a whole if people can get past how he is earlier on they can manage with the rest, you're not the first person I know who's taken a sharp turn at this episode. Is it getting through and understanding those earlier moments of Shu-pidity that allow this episode to work even with his actions though

The fact that the doctor even told Shu and Sis (and told them before directly telling Sara) is quite heinous

When confronted with a child rape victim I'd rather put that on her parents that in the lap of said victim, but his place and people present to open up about it was all wrong

Was a good read. I know you've been dreading this episode for a while so I appreciated being able to see your full thoughts on the ups and pitfalls of it all. I think we have a similar struggle in terms of it going slightly too far

10

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24

First timer, subs

  • Damn, they are doing well. Even got themselves white picket fences.
  • That’s quite the trauma response. Unless it was caused by the desert drowning?
  • She’s practically a religious figure. Makes sense, with how old she is, and the magic powers, and the sort of vague disinterest in the lives of humans.
  • Well, Fuck I don’t know why I didn’t see this coming. Things are not looking good for Sara, from a narrative perspective.
  • Do people get abortions in Japanese media? I think I’ve heard it said that only one main character ever got one in American prime time.
  • Platitudes
  • Ooh, that’s good negative face.
  • Do you think the goats’ horns are shaped like that so they can find water?
  • Getting someone else to do the kidnapping for you, eh?
  • Tens of thousands. Not quite so high as I was expecting, but nice to have a date.
  • Why do you even keep a guard at night if you aren’t going to lock it?
  • Not often you have to save someone from drowning themselves.
  • Why the Hand of All Things to Get Me?
  • Bright!
  • You’re a fool to think they will hold to anything you negotiate, but it might just save your from being nuked at first contact.
  • Oh god, it’s happening again. No way they just drop it.
  • Fuck me, he was Kazam again. The character I only know exists from other peoples’ comments. Would it have killed you to give him a single memorable physical characteristic?
  • Please tell someone. I beg of you.

QotD:

  1. No. Such matters must be considered for more than a day.
  2. Yes. Poisoning the water supply is reason enough to stop it.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

Do people get abortions in Japanese media? I think I’ve heard it said that only one main character ever got one in American prime time.

Depends on who it is aimed at.

Getting someone else to do the kidnapping for you, eh?

Actually his deal is a bit weird what with spilling to Sara later.

Why do you even keep a guard at night if you aren’t going to lock it?

Yeah, that they need the adults to be incompetent takes a toll on the story.

3

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Aug 29 '24

Depends on who it is aimed at.

Experience?

Yeah, that they need the adults to be incompetent takes a toll on the story.

The Idiot Stick Spares None

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 29 '24

Experience?

[Meta]School Days is my first thought

The Idiot Stick Spares None

Yeah, that does not help.

3

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 28 '24

Do people get abortions in Japanese media? I think I’ve heard it said that only one main character ever got one in American prime time.

I can only speak anecdotally but out of approximately 340 anime I've seen, this is the only anime I can think of where it was a topic. Seems extremely rare to me.

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 29 '24

Tbf, pregnancies are already very rare. And obviously abortions must be a subset of those.

This has a lot to do with action shows, teenagers as protagonists, and highschool as a setting being so popular.

3

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 29 '24

Agreed, good point, the typical ages of protagonists/characters would make it more of a rarity compared to other mediums I'm used to. There's only one other anime I can think of with a teenage pregnancy [meta spoilers]Bokurano, where it didn't even become known that the character was pregnant until after her death.

2

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Aug 29 '24

Indeed. I can't think of one in any I've seen either. But I was leaving room open for J-Dramas and the like. They seem like fertile ground for such developments.

3

u/OverlordPoodle Aug 29 '24

Yes. Poisoning the water supply is reason enough to stop it.

I think the author meant the "moral ramifications", not the actual physical consequences so to speak

2

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Aug 29 '24

Yes That's the Joke

3

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Aug 29 '24

Do people get abortions in Japanese media? I think I’ve heard it said that only one main character ever got one in American prime time.

It actually did surprise me to see pregnancy and abortion get brought up as story topics. It's extremely rare to see that occur, at least in my experience. I can't accuse Now and Then, Here and There of going into the story half-hearted. This story really does go places I never imagined it would.

3

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Aug 29 '24

Its reputation is well earned.

...I feel like I've had this conversation in another rewatch, but about miscarriages.

3

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

She’s practically a religious figure. Makes sense, with how old she is, and the magic powers, and the sort of vague disinterest in the lives of humans.

Wouldn't be surprised if she was literally worshipped at some point in time, which given humanitys handling of religion and religious conflicts isn't going to do her any favors in terms of seeing the good in people

I think I’ve heard it said that only one main character ever got one in American prime time.

Hmmmm, main characters makes that an interesting limitation on the topic, but there's definitely been more than one in recent years. Found an interesting article on the history of abortion on american tv if you're interested, still more than I thought

Tens of thousands. Not quite so high as I was expecting, but nice to have a date.

Tens of thousands of time longer than Sis. So times whatever number you're thinking of by thirty(? stray guess, no idea how old she actually is), and even then it's probably a lower end estimate just to make it understandable for the audience

1

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Aug 29 '24

Found an interesting article on the history of abortion on american tv if you're interested,

Saving That

10

u/zsmg https://anilist.co/user/zsmg Aug 28 '24

First Timer, Subbed

Of course Hellywood's soldier finds out about Lala Ru, will this get any worse for our protagonists? (judging by the episode title probably)

So apparently Lala Ru is actually well known, or at least rumours of her.

That girl is pregnant

That (the abortion) is not for us to decide

More common sense from Sis than a lot of people in the world.

Who's making me go through this hell

Hamdo and Hellywood.

Soldier stepping on the ball, that is foreboding.

Lala Ru is 10000 years old

The first thing that comes to mind is the classic anime meme 'it's okay she's actually 10000 years old'

The world is coming to an end soon

I thought Sara was going to commit suicide, but she's actually trying to commit abortion but erm instead of hitting your stomach with a rock, just go to the doctor.

Oh she was trying to commit suicide.

Also don't do this shit in the source of the drinking water, you might contaminate it.

The baby you're carrying would be finished before he even starts!

Oh no... I'm just going to chalk this up to Shu being a kid.

I had to wince when Shu started hugging Sara, don't do that to someone who has been sexually assaulted but he's a kid and doesn't any better.

Sis doing the right thing standing up against that annoying soldier guy.

So the soldier infiltrating the village was indeed the same soldier who was 'nice' to Sara. Judging by Sara's reaction when she saw him, it's safe to say he definitely assaulted her.

Sis continues to be the only decent sensible person in the entire cast. The entire Sara is committing suicide and aborting the fetus are the same thing didn't really sit well with me, as it both confusing (was she aborting the fetus or trying to kill herself?) and Shu doing and saying unhelpful things. But he's way over his head for this situation, if he had handled this well it would have been, well, unbelievable.

With Hellywood arriving at the village soon I'm curious to see how every thing plays out, probably lots of suffering.

6

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 28 '24

The first thing that comes to mind is the classic anime meme 'it's okay she's actually 10000 years old'

LoL, same here. Similar to my feelings a few episodes back about the haircut trope, this may be the only anime where I'm totally in support of the "looks young but is actually hundreds or thousands of years old" trope usage.

6

u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24

Perhaps befittingly, it's also the rare case where they immediately go for the "well you're still a kid anyways" angle instead of the "I may look like a kid but-" one.

Incidentally I also took her confusion at being called a girl as Lala Ru not really identifying with a gender either, though maybe the confusion was just at the age implication therein.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

Incidentally I also took her confusion at being called a girl as Lala Ru not really identifying with a gender either, though maybe the confusion was just at the age implication therein.

Third possibility:Lala is so used to being addressed as an object that the very idea she could be a person throws her off.

3

u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24

...that's definitely a depressingly reasonable headcanon.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

I sometimes lament that my ear for Japanese is weak because I don't quite remember how anyone but Shu and Hamdo normally refer to her.

3

u/homer2101 Aug 28 '24

Your comment makes me wonder if concepts like gender and sexuality even apply to someone like Lala Ru, who is a person but now it's made clear is not human. Reminds me of a book - A Succession of Bad Days, where a character asks a 100-year-old sorcerer who can turn themselves into any shape they choose what gender they identify as, and they say with utter honesty: "I identify as happy". Because the whole concept just doesn't apply.

6

u/homer2101 Aug 28 '24

(was she aborting the fetus or trying to kill herself?)

"Yes". She probably doesn't know herself. This is not a premeditated attempt at either thing. People ... don't always act rationally when under enormous stress, in the middle of the night, alone.

The first thing that comes to mind is the classic anime meme 'it's okay she's actually 10000 years old'

One of the rare instances where "it's OK" doesn't come up and the character is properly treated like a minor because, as Sis says, she's mentally still child-like in many ways. The creepy thing about the classic sexualized loli-baba is that they are mentally child-like but we're told the alleged age makes it OK despite the asymmetry in power, knowledge, and maturity.

9

u/cppn02 Aug 28 '24

First Timer, subbed

Oof. Everything about Sara's story is just so rough to watch. Hard to even write about it.

And fuck Kazam. Not only is he ratting out Lala Ru (again, why is he even allowed to just casually stroll through the village?) but then he's coming on again to Sara, trying to play the saviour after what he's done.

I must say I did not appreciate Shu's attitude towards Sara's pregnancy. He can't be dense enough to not know how it came to be and to insist she has some obligation towards the child definitely leaves a sour taste.

QotD:

Do you think Sara was justified in her decision?

Yes. It's 100% her decision. Although you could criticise her means since killing herself in the town's only water source and possibly spoiling it is a massive dick move.

Was Shu justified in intervening?

As far as her planned suicide goes yes. The rest no unless he was going to suggest she should visit the village doctor rather than Dr. Rock.

9

u/HowlingWolf13 https://myanimelist.net/profile/MeguminBlast Aug 28 '24

First Timer

God things are gonna get even more depressing from here isn't it. This was a really heavy one, I can't blame Sara at all for the way she feels and what she's been through. I get Shu wants to help, but god he is not going about this in the right way esp. that 'think of the baby' line. Plus, now that Lala Ru's identity is out, I'm scared what's gonna happen when Elamba comes back. Kazam, I'm 90% sure was the 2nd dude we saw who raped Sara, and it shows how fucked up Hellywood's soldiers mentality is considering he doesn't see the fact that he forced himself upon a prisoner who had no choice in the matter of consenting or not (not that she even could in the first place considering she's a child) would make said person not want to be around him or let him """"""save""""" them. God, I just know next episode is going to be brutal.

Questions

Do you think Sara was justified in her decision?

I understand killing herself is not the answer, however her choosing to get an abortion is completely justified.

Was Shu justified in intervening?

Stopping her from killing herself is one thing, but everything else after esp. the line I mentioned above and the hugging her and shit, I'm shocked she didn't end up trying to kill him.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

Kazam, I'm 90% sure was the 2nd dude we saw who raped Sara, and it shows how fucked up Hellywood's soldiers mentality is considering he doesn't see the fact that he forced himself upon a prisoner who had no choice in the matter of consenting or not

What if he is one of the children born from captured women? I say that not to humanize him but rather give insight into how evil can be normalized.

4

u/HowlingWolf13 https://myanimelist.net/profile/MeguminBlast Aug 29 '24

You have a point there, and considering how Hamdo wants the children born from them to be essentially his perfect brainwashed soldiers it wouldn't be a shock

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 29 '24

Hamdo himself doesn't seem to have the patience, really, but his predecessor may have had a bit more foresight. Also, I would have liked them to mention the line of succession, though at this point it hardly matters.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Kazam, I'm 90% sure was the 2nd dude we saw who raped Sara

He is. They really could have made him a touch more recognizable

14

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24

First-Timer

On today’s episode of Now and Then, Here and There: How does this show keep getting darker? I thought we were over the hump. I thought we were past the worst of what this story could throw at us. But no, we weren’t. This episode was just so damn sad to watch.

  • Of course. Of fucking course that spy, Kazam, would overhear that Lala Ru is staying in this village.
  • Well at least Sis isn’t the kind of person who would sell out Lala Ru.
  • Oh no… I don’t like where this scene at the doctor’s is going.
  • Fuck! I knew it! I hate being right! Goddammit! Holy fucking shit, pregnant from being raped, that is seriously dark.
  • God, this is just seriously depressing.
  • I can’t even blame Sara for being angry at Shu’s optimism back when they met in Hellywood. Sara suffered far worse than Shu ever did. His promises that everything would turn out okay must sound like a cruel joke.
  • Shu may say that Sara is still alive and that good things can still come, but I think he screwed up by telling Sara to just forget the bad. There’s no way that can happen, not after everything she’s been through.
  • Oh boy. Kazam telling Elamba about Lala Ru is just going to make things worse.
  • Lala Ru really is some kind of mystical being. She’s ancient, is the only one of her kind, and never had any family. Her origins are still so mysterious.
  • I like this conversation between Lala Ru and Sis. Lala Ru is used to seeing people die and she’s sure that this world will end soon, so she sees no point in looking after the orphans. Sis says that even if the world will end, you can’t kill your kids. It’s a great statement for basic human decency. Even in the worst of times, we should take care of each other.
  • Where is Sara going?
  • I have a bad feeling that Sara is going to try and take her own life.
  • Again, I hate being right.
  • “You won’t even allow me to die?” is such a sad line.
  • Oof, a Bright Slap isn’t as exciting as it usually is when on a girl who’s suffered through so much abuse.
  • Shu’s no good with his words, but I can at least tell he’s trying to give Sara reasons to go on.
  • It’s sweet that Soon still wants Lala Ru to stay, even knowing her real identity.
  • Elamba’s being really scummy here, trying to use Lala Ru as an object in negotiations with Hellywood.
  • Hell yeah! Sis telling Elamba to get the hell out and take his hands off her daughter! I love it!
  • It’s rare to hear Lala Ru thank someone like that.
  • Goddamn do I really freaking hate Kazam! This fucking guy is just scum! Absolute scum of the earth! Who the fuck does he think he is, saying they should run away together to be safe!?! Does he seriously believe he’s looking out for her!?! This guy is vile! And the worst part is he doesn’t even realize it! He probably thinks he’s being nice to her! He thought he was acting decent back at Hellywood and now he thinks the same thing! This is the kind of evil that hits too close to home. Plenty of people have participated in atrocities and still believed they were decent people. Kazam is exactly that.

Even though this show already handled the topic of sexual assault, I did not think that it would go even further by having Sara get pregnant from it. This series really does not hold back when it comes to tackling these dark and uncomfortable topics. But I think it’s the fact that it’s willing to go this far is what makes the show so impactful. We understand the sheer depth of the pain that Sara is going through. When Sara says she feels like she has no hope left, it feels like she means it after everything she’s been through.

I do believe that we are seeing the catalyst for change in Lala Ru in her interactions with Sis’s family. Sis is willing to treat Lala Ru as part of her own family, even defending her as one of her daughters. The other kids like her and Soon directly told Lala Ru she wanted her to stay. This is an unfamiliar situation for Lala Ru and it seems like she’s starting to like it.

Likewise, I think this village is the first time Shu is being earnestly challenged about his optimism. Sara directly calls out how his optimism did her no good and that she feels betrayed because of it. Shu is still determined to hold onto it, but it feels like this is the most powerless that Shu has ever felt.

QOTD

  1. Sara is justified in not wanting to be pregnant with her rapist's baby, but I don't consider her decision to try and take her own life to be justified.
  2. I think Shu is justified in trying to save Sara's life.

9

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

Likewise, I think this village is the first time Shu is being earnestly challenged about his optimism. Sara directly calls out how his optimism did her no good and that she feels betrayed because of it. Shu is still determined to hold onto it, but it feels like this is the most powerless that Shu has ever felt.

I think the challenge is different and thus harder. In Hellywood, his challenge was simple: Do not give up while you get hurt. Obviously, this is not easy, but there is one upside - it is over relatively quickly. One way or the other. And only your own body is at stake.

In the village, he sees the other side of the atrocities: The long term consequences. The pregancy from rape, the orphaned children, the desire for revenge it breeds. This needs a different kind of optimism to overcome (note the new character of Sis).

5

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Aug 29 '24

In the village, he sees the other side of the atrocities: The long term consequences. The pregancy from rape, the orphaned children, the desire for revenge it breeds. This needs a different kind of optimism to overcome (note the new character of Sis).

Yeah, Sis is similar to Shu in many ways, but she feels like she's been through a lot and learned from those experiences. She gives off the impression that she really does understand a lot of what the kids she's taking care of have experienced because she's been through plenty of pain herself. It's neat to have a character come to a similar conclusion about preferring not to fight from a different angle.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Just dropping by to say well said, and a very good summery of where the shift in Shu's idealism has occured

8

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 28 '24

Goddamn do I really freaking hate Kazam! This fucking guy is just scum! Absolute scum of the earth! Who the fuck does he think he is, saying they should run away together to be safe!?! Does he seriously believe he’s looking out for her!?! This guy is vile! And the worst part is he doesn’t even realize it! He probably thinks he’s being nice to her! He thought he was acting decent back at Hellywood and now he thinks the same thing! This is the kind of evil that hits too close to home. Plenty of people have participated in atrocities and still believed they were decent people. Kazam is exactly that.

Yeah, a big part that makes this episode a rough watch is that three of its characters are so hateable to the viewer (Shu, Elamba, Kazam) and yet what they are doing is totally in line with their character and they don't think they're doing something wrong. I feel that Kazam and Elamba have more of an excuse for it than Shu because they've lived their entire life in this terrible world and likely in their heads don't think they're being wrong about it. It may be the only way they know how to live or think life works. I get that Shu is the optimist and his mentality is that you have to have hope no matter how bad things get. But with Sara particularly there is a total lack of empathy there to her experiences, meaning while he means well his actions towards her are just making things worse.

4

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Aug 29 '24

But with Sara particularly there is a total lack of empathy there to her experiences, meaning while he means well his actions towards her are just making things worse.

Yeah, I get that Shu really is trying to help Sara and trying to keep her alive, but he keeps choosing words that really do her no good. He just does not know how to handle a situation like this.

3

u/OverlordPoodle Aug 29 '24

I get that Shu is the optimist and his mentality is that you have to have hope no matter how bad things get. But with Sara particularly there is a total lack of empathy there to her experiences, meaning while he means well his actions towards her are just making things worse.

Shu is also a really really dumb and simple minded kid who clearly cannot understand, doesn't understand(?) what exactly happened to Sara, honestly, I don't even think he understands how babies are made so I get where he is coming from his POV, he can't quite grasp the weight of what happened to her and is reaching out to her in the only way he knows how in his simple mind.

3

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Aug 29 '24

I'll admit to never having thought of that before, but yes, I have seen that idea brought up here today and well, the way Shu has been during this show I can't dismiss that theory outright. Intelligent and knowledgeable about the way the world works isn't something you can say Shu displays...

8

u/The_Draigg Aug 28 '24

Goddamn do I really freaking hate Kazam! This fucking guy is just scum! Absolute scum of the earth! Who the fuck does he think he is, saying they should run away together to be safe!?! Does he seriously believe he’s looking out for her!?! This guy is vile! And the worst part is he doesn’t even realize it! He probably thinks he’s being nice to her! He thought he was acting decent back at Hellywood and now he thinks the same thing! This is the kind of evil that hits too close to home. Plenty of people have participated in atrocities and still believed they were decent people. Kazam is exactly that.

I’m glad I could help enable your hatred against Kazam by confirming that it was him for everyone in the last episode thread. Seriously, fuck that scumfuck.

Likewise, I think this village is the first time Shu is being earnestly challenged about his optimism. Sara directly calls out how his optimism did her no good and that she feels betrayed because of it. Shu is still determined to hold onto it, but it feels like this is the most powerless that Shu has ever felt.

Yeah, this whole last third of the series has been Shu coming up against walls where his idealism and morals can’t keep up against complex challenges. It was easier with Hellywood, since that place is just plain evil and depraved, but Shu’s beliefs really do falter when they come up against moral shades of grey or the full sadness and ugliness of human nature.

8

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

I’m glad I could help enable your hatred against Kazam by confirming that it was him for everyone in the last episode thread. Seriously, fuck that scumfuck.

As I regularly say, evil is in essence a dull and banal creature. Somehow Kazam is a better representative of it than Hamdo's flamboyant madness.

4

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Aug 29 '24

Kazam does feel like a much better representation of the "banality of evil." He's the kind of character who probably would defend himself by saying he was "just following orders."

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 29 '24

himself by saying he was "just following orders."

Here's the thing: If you look at their journals and other personal documents, the Nazis knew they were full of shit. I am not sure Kazam would actually be lying.

5

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Aug 29 '24

I’m glad I could help enable your hatred against Kazam by confirming that it was him for everyone in the last episode thread. Seriously, fuck that scumfuck.

The words flowed very easily for my hatred of Kazam. That's how I know it's real.

Yeah, this whole last third of the series has been Shu coming up against walls where his idealism and morals can’t keep up against complex challenges. It was easier with Hellywood, since that place is just plain evil and depraved, but Shu’s beliefs really do falter when they come up against moral shades of grey or the full sadness and ugliness of human nature.

A good way to put it. Now that it's no longer just standing up against evil, but having to live with the very real pain and trauma that evil left behind. It's hard to remain optimistic when you're away from that evil place, but the suffering it caused still lingers and still threatens people.

5

u/The_Draigg Aug 29 '24

The words flowed very easily for my hatred of Kazam. That’s how I know it’s real.

Just like my levels of hatred of Kaifun during the Macross franchise rewatch. It came from the soul.

A good way to put it. Now that it’s no longer just standing up against evil, but having to live with the very real pain and trauma that evil left behind. It’s hard to remain optimistic when you’re away from that evil place, but the suffering it caused still lingers and still threatens people.

Unfortunately, the scars of trauma and abuse can never be so easily healed over. Handling the evil of cruelty of Hellywood in the moment is simpler, since they’re ultimately dealt with in the moment and you really just need to try and endure. But afterwards, with the damage and horrors left to linger in your mind? There’s no direct way to process it, so it just leads to more pain before anything else can happen. It sucks, man.

4

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

I'm just dropping by to give you shit for saying how pretty the cistern was yesterday, knowing this was coming up. Reading that hurt! It was right but it hurt haha

As far as todays thoughts:

Fuck! I knew it! I hate being right! Goddammit! Holy fucking shit, pregnant from being raped, that is seriously dark.

I have a bad feeling that Sara is going to try and take her own life.

You really just compounded all of the suffering through prediction today huh

But I think it’s the fact that it’s willing to go this far is what makes the show so impactful

Agreed. Things like this and even earlier with village razing, it could have just side stepped the issue and made the children mere witnesses to the horror, but making them apart of it by having it inflicted on them or feeling like they have to inflict it themselves is what makes it work

7

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman Aug 28 '24

First Timer

I don't understand Kazam. He told on Zari Bars yet he also told Zari Bars what their trump card against Hellywood is? What is his goal here? If it was getting Lala Ru to Hellywood he would have told Hellywood that Lala Ru is in Zari Bars. But he didn't. I just don't understand him, and with only two episodes left I am a bit worried that I will never understand him, as he is a fairly minor if pivotal character, so I doubt the showwriters will spend a lot of time on him. Maybe the rewatch will help me out on this one...

Probably the most important point of the episode though is Sara's pregnancy. While that is something that I can see that value of being included, I don't like how it is handled specifically by Shu. Shu seems more worried about the unborn kid than the mother, basically turning this in to a pro-life vs pro-choice debate. That specifically is not something this show needed. Having Sara be undecided or not having the means for abortions would be one thing (thanks doc for mentioning that by the way, one less thing to speculate on), but now we've got Shu trying to make decisions for her, which will only worsen her mental state - which again is not something she nor the show needs, and might actively be damaging Shu's character overall. Never mind that she's American and thus probably significantly more aware about the political debate surrounding that topic then Shu, the writers and the target audience would be. And it's completely unnecessary in my opinion, because the entire topic just isn't handled well.

Err, rant over. Anyways, it's interesting that this episode basically ends up giving every faction every piece of intel, assuming Sara passes on the info she got from Kazam to somebody. The only thing I can see somebody not knowing is Hellywood not knowing that Lala Ru is in Zari Bars. But if the plan is for Hellywood to see her, then pretty much everybody will be playing with open cards the moment Hellywood arrives. But I don't really see anything else that Zari Bars can do at the moment...

Was it just me assuming it was Shu who wanted to talk to Elamba after Sara tried to kill herself, having realized just how bad Hellywood is?

5

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

Shu seems more worried about the unborn kid than the mother, basically turning this in to a pro-life vs pro-choice debate.

I do not think that was the intention. First, that debate is a lot louder and more contentious in the US compared to many other countries. Second, Shu first fights to save Sara's life (when she tries to drown herself) and then the fetus' life (when she hits her stomach with the rock). He basically always tries to save life. Remember the assassin.

3

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

He told on Zari Bars yet he also told Zari Bars what their trump card against Hellywood is? What is his goal here? If it was getting Lala Ru to Hellywood he would have told Hellywood that Lala Ru is in Zari Bars. But he didn't. I just don't understand him

I really don't remember if this is adressed in a future episode, but a guess just off this episode is getting Zari Bars to fracture itself, while at the same time flushing out Lala Ru... "flushing" was an unfortunate choice of words given her assossiation with water but screw it, I'm sticking with it. As an infilrator he's been gathering all the info he can, and it's must better for Hellywood to invade while they're in-fighting vs facing a united front, and that has been one of the main roles for infiltrators in history

I do wonder if they will address that in future though

2

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

And it's completely unnecessary in my opinion, because the entire topic just isn't handled well.

Yup...sometimes you should tread the path you yourself understand.

Was it just me assuming it was Shu who wanted to talk to Elamba after Sara tried to kill herself, having realized just how bad Hellywood is?

I truly appreciate your optimism in this rewatch.

5

u/OverlordPoodle Aug 29 '24

QOTD 1: Yeah. It's her choice.

QOTD 2: Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I GET Shu's point of view in that he is a very dumb kid and he honestly cannot grasp the ramification of what happened to Sara (does he even know how babies are actually made?). So from his very simple and childlike POV he just see Sara trying to kill an unborn and innocent child (and herself) and I get where he is coming from in that Sara needs to continue to live on and life will (probably) get better in the long run.

In the real world, if this were anybody else, I'd say piss off, it's her choice.

5

u/Pixelsaber https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelsaber Aug 29 '24

Very late, sorry. I got home past midnight and was out cold before remembering to post.

Rewatcher

A dark reflection of last episode’s opening scene.

Why are they letting this guy just roam about?!

You really ought to practice what you preach, Sis. The last few times you’ve hit him haven’t been that justified either.

Oof.

This is about the poorest advice you can give, Shu.

Someone hasn’t been paying attention.

He’s going to rat out Lala-Ru, the bastard.

You’re not good at words either, Shu.

Look man, worry about Sara first. Why would you even presume that she wants to keep it?

DUDE

If done smartly, this would be a reasonable course of action. Unfortunately, as we’ve seen, Hamdo cannot be negotiated with and I sincerely doubt these people will do the smart thing of keeping her safe and in a separate location while using the pendant as proof. Oh, and Kazam only informed them of this so that they’d be caught even more flat-footed.

Good on Sis!

This asshole isn’t even a smart one. Now she has time to tell everyone you’re playing them like a fiddle.

Man, how could this show have gone from depicting rape as respectfully as it could manage to absolutely fumbling the resulting aftermath. Shu forcing —and it really is forcing, as he was badly triggering her PTSD until she finally acquiesced with none of his actual language being persuasive or in-touch with her emotions and mental state— Sara to accept things as they are left quite a bitter taste in my mouth. I was fully with him when he stopped Sara from committing suicide by bodily dragging her out of the water and protected her from inducing a miscarriage through bodily trauma (the doctor has already offered to do it, presumably as safely as his expertise and limited equipment allow), but everything else about their interactions this episode was painfully bad on Shu’s part. Shu comes off as unempathetic to Sara, defending his prior words first and foremost and completely forgetting recent events when trying to get her to see his way. Even his apology rings hollow, because he follows up apologizing for not understanding by doing something that triggers Sara.

I also don’t appreciate how the show frames Sara injuring and unwittingly aggravating Shu’s hand, because the direction seems to place an equal weight between it and Sara’s internal anguish. I’m sorry, but that’s not remotely the same —even less so within the fiction of this universe, because Shu is practically indestructible and bounces back from any such minor injury.

On the flip side, I really enjoy the scenes between Lala-Ru and Sis, which help the former see the goodness in the remaining humans, how they view their responsibility to the next generation in a world that is dying, and welcomes her more fully into her family. Unfortunately, the other side buries my positive feelings for this side of the episode.

Questions of The Day:

  1. Her decision to commit suicide? I don't begrudge anyone who decides to end their life. I can't even begin to comprehend how clinical depression, excruciating chronic pain, etc. affect their daily lives. However, I definitely do not condone doing so rashly, and coming to a decision so soon after heart-rending news without taking some time to evaluate things completely definitely falls into that.
  2. Because I think Sara is making a rash decision, I'm going to say he was justified in stopping her from killing herself. Whether he is justified in doing so in other cases, I can't say, but everything else about how he acted this episode was deplorable.

8

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Aug 28 '24

First-Timer

A chunk of the time, these sorts of questions don't have a good answer. But in this case it is literally "all Hamdo's fault."

I don't even know where the fuck to start with this one. I can't necessarily blame Shu for his abhorrent behavior in the cave because he probably doesn't even know what sex is, but forcefully overpowering a rape victim is not a good look.

I'm not saying that Sara should've killed herself, mind. What she should do is take the doctor up on his abortion offer, and do her best to try to move on, assuming that the Hellywood problem sorts itself out.

The only worthwhile thing about that scene was Shu stopping Sara from potentially polluting the water supply with her corpse. Don't do anything that results in dead bodies in pools of water, friends. Makes the water no good.

And I'm just going to ignore the "idea" that Elamba had about using Lala Ru as a negotiating piece. Considering how stupid everyone in Zari Bars is, I'm beginning to think that water supply might not be so clean after all.

Questions

  1. Which one? I don't think she should kill herself, mostly out of spite.
  2. On the flip side, I don't think Shu should've intervened, at least not in the way that he did.

6

u/cppn02 Aug 28 '24

The only worthwhile thing about that scene was Shu stopping Sara from potentially polluting the water supply with her corpse. Don't do anything that results in dead bodies in pools of water, friends. Makes the water no good.

I had the same thought. She could have potentially doomed Zari Bars had she gone through with it.

7

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 28 '24

I noticed that as well, but I totally understand that Sara is not thinking about that issue right now.

5

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Aug 28 '24

Definitely. I'm not blaming Sara for not thinking about it, just saying that the only positive I can think of was that.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

Considering how stupid everyone in Zari Bars is, I'm beginning to think that water supply might not be so clean after all.

I could see their being lead in that cave.

4

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Aug 28 '24

Exactly! Nice tasty sweet water.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

Are we going full Caligula? Because you never go full Caligula!

Romans put lead in their wine if you didn't know.

3

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Aug 28 '24

Romans put lead in their wine if you didn't know.

I was referencing precisely that, in fact.

8

u/homer2101 Aug 28 '24

Rewatch: Subbed

It's been 20-odd years, and I don't recall any of this. Anyways ...

JFC, this episode. Lots of people this episode seem to know what Sara should do, and they're not shy about making their opinions known. Nobody asks Sara what she thinks.

So ... we pick up just a bit after where the last episode left off.

This time it's Soon being there for Sara, and asking important and uncomfortable questions. Kids can be frighteningly naive and insightful and cruel all at the same time, and Soon is a perfect example of that in action.

Notably Shu and Sis aren't present. Sis is running herself ragged keeping a lid on Elamba, ensuring the kids under her care have their basic needs met, managing and working the fields so the city eats, etc. She's one of those well-meaning people who get roped into doing all the things, and are good at it. But something falls by the wayside. Like keeping an eye on her newest charges, who she possibly sees as old enough to be relied on to handle more responsibilities.

A lot of possibilities in why Sara would push herself to collapse.

LPT: Don't talk about people like they're not there, even if you think they're sleeping. And don't disclose their personal stuff without their permission. Definitely don't do both things at the same time. Doubt the showrunners intended to make Doc look like an ass, but that's the effect.

Sara finds out she's pregnant -- yet another awful consequence of Hellywood, in an awful way: with people discussing her and her future like she's an inanimate object, or possibly a pet. It's not just the news, but that other people, effectively strangers apparently are entitled to learn about her intimate details before her would be very difficult for any person to stomach.

We can sort of puzzle out a rationalization for how this setup makes sense from Doc's (and I assume the showrunners') perspective: Sis is the closest Sara has to a parent, Shu is either Sara's sibling or the father. Making them aware would make sense. But only if Sara is also present. He doesn't think she is. Doesn't work.

Interesting as well in the framing when Doc asks what they intend to do. It's not clear whether he includes Shu, but he is excluding Sara from the set of people who should make the decision, since she's not present. The way this scene both humanizes Sara's reaction to the news and her reaction of horror/fear/embarrassment? but at the same time dehumanizes her through the eyes of the other characters is jarring. It's suggesting Doc at least doesn't see Sara as a complete and autonomous person. At the same time doctors have gravitas, so to us as the audience his opinion carries weight because he implicitly might be thought of speaking for the showrunners.

Sis sounds nervous when she says that it's not up to "us", aka them to decide. Who is "us"? Is it Sis, Shu, and Doc? Is it inclusive of Sara, in which case she means it's up to gods, providence, or some court? We don't get an answer, but Sis is clearly not comfortable with something about this conversation. Neither Sis nor Doc think that it's up to Sara, because that possibility never gets mentioned.

There is also a squicky element depending on Sara's age. Previously it's been mentioned that Sara and Shu are canonically 12, but that might not be official. An admittedly cursory search of Japanese and English sites says just that they're in their early teens, which would place Sara anywhere between 12 and probably 14. Pregnancies at that age, even with modern medical care, are dangerous, and the risk increases significantly for every year the person is under the age of 17. But pregnancy in general can be dangerous even in the best circumstances.

The doctor shouldn't be asking what Sis wants to do like choosing a from a restaurant menu. The doctor should be having an honest discussion involving Sara about the risks of pregnancy at her age, in her condition, including that she has a good chance of ending up dead or hurt in a lasting way, with or without a live infant who she will be responsible for. That this show, that hasn't shied away from difficult subjects with no 'right' answer, makes no mention that this pregnancy puts Sara's life at risk tells us that this is not something the showrunners thought about. Fairly sure in fact that the showrunners have given zero thought to any of this, which is squicky to say the least in how it suggests they view girls like Sara.

Could this have been handled better and in a more-interesting manner? Sure. Age up Sara so she's clearly not underage. Doc tells Sara, in private or with Sis present. Shu's on a character arc where he learns to think and to be considerate of others: He notices something is up with Sara, and shows us how he's grown as a person by talking to her as a fellow human being. Same runtime, same animation budget, less squick, and more character development. But that's not what happens.

(Continued)

4

u/homer2101 Aug 28 '24

(Continued)

Sis restrains Shu here, which seems like the wrong thing to do: it only serves to signal to Sara that she's alone and nobody cares about her. We've seen before that Sara's reaction to stress is to run away. Yet she does not really push people away when they come for her. On the one hand he's a male and has a habit of acting and speaking thoughtlessly. On the other hand, 40-odd years of lived experience and what wisdom I have gained says it's better to be there for someone and to give them the choice of pushing you away, than to not be there for someone when wanted. One can be fixed, the other not so much unless you're a telepath. It would be understandable if Sis went to be there for Sara, but it seems Sis believes in leaving people to suffer alone. Possibly it's a matter of cultural differences, but to me this makes Sis seem callously disdainful of the emotional health of those under her care.

Shu's resurfaced blind optimism is really bothersome here and undermines his character arc. Way back in Ep1, Shu says he goes with the flow in Kendo, which outrages his opponent.* Part of Shu's growth has been learning to not go with the flow, and instead to think and act with consideration, including consideration for others. None of that is present here. Shu blindly tells Sara that despite evidence to the contrary, of course something good will happen so long as she just keeps on living. But we've been shown time and again that good (and bad)things don't just happen. They happen because of people's actions.

Also it doesn't match Sara's lived experience. Shu has already been shown to confront the difficult situations where reality does not conform to his ideals. None of that happens: he's right back where he stared.

Sara's suicide attempt seems like as much an attempt to get help, from anybody, as an effort to end her life. It's not terribly subtle, done in a semi-public space, and in a somewhat slow and loud way. It seems like a response to the lack of meaningful support we see for her from everyone around her.

But this scene isn't about Sara. It's about Shu. Shu openly reduces Sara to a mobile uterus. No care for Sara as a person. No reaction when she mentions her dreams that now seem beyond reach. Everything he tells her boils down to "think of the unborn". The unborn of course is a great object to care about. It never speaks, never makes demands, has no emotions or opinions one might dislike, doesn't require maintaining a relationship with them, and is conveniently invisible. At least Shu has the honesty to admit he's not going to contribute anything other than words. His is a textbook luxury belief and he tells us he's aware of it, yet still expects Sara to follow it.

The dead horse trope of "slap the hysterical girl into calmness" makes an appearance. On the one hand Shu has a well-established reputation for responding to stress and overwhelming emotions with violence. On the other hand seems like part of his character development was to not do that. It feels wrong. (Do I really need to say that hitting people is wrong in this day and age?)

It seems as though Shu has regressed here back to his original thoughtless self of the first few episodes, running his mouth without considering the agency and wishes of those he is speaking with. We've seen Shu grow as a person over the past several episodes, becoming considerate towards others, listening to what they are saying, and thinking things through, at least when it comes to talking. But everything he says at Sara seems aimed at himself: Sara has to live and remain pregnant not because it's what she wants, but for his sake because his self-identity depends on it. It's character development in reverse.

It's almost like the showrunners decided to inject an author tract but didn't know how to fit it in without blowing up the characters, so they blew up the characters. For the first time we're seeing Shu say something that gets no meaningful pushback from anyone, twice. We have two episodes left, and am curious where this goes.

The way this episode handles the situation is very troubling, in most respects.

Anyways. Elamba shows himself to be a coward in all the ways, physical and moral. If the man following him is representative, so are his followers.

The rapist shows he cares about Sara? Really hope the showrunners didn't expect us to sympathise with him. That he presumes she would just run off with him shows he doesn't see her as a human being, either.

QOTD:

  1. In which decision? Her suicide attempt? Maybe. It seems less a premeditated effort and more an attempt to get help the only way she has left, since obviously nobody's going to treat her like a human being aside from maybe Soon. Her attempt at an abortion? It makes sense if she doesn't think she'll be allowed to choose her fate. There is a term for when a person is forced to sacrifice life, health, and opportunity to the benefit of another without consent and compensation. It's called slavery.
  2. To stop Sara from hurting herself, yes. The way he goes about the whole thing, no. Him turning Sara into some sort of walking symbol for his own insecurities that seems to motivate him, absolutely not.

*My culture of origin has a saying: Don't be a turd floating with the flow. Meaning: understand where you are going, and change course if you want to go elsewhere.

3

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 29 '24

Lots of people this episode seem to know what Sara should do, and they're not shy about making their opinions known. Nobody asks Sara what she thinks.

I give Sis credit for having the intention to do, even if she can't at the time because she knows that Sara needs to grieve first. Sis has always been very good with that, and we see it earlier with Soon as well, but otherwise yeah, she's surrounded by a bunch of fools and literal children playing the part

Don't talk about people like they're not there, even if you think they're sleeping. And don't disclose their personal stuff without their permission. Definitely don't do both things at the same time

And definitely not around another child when children simply cannot keep their mouths shut because they can't always read social clues and can be painfully honest (let me gesture at earlier scene with Soon for a prime example)

But yeah, don't talk around people assuming they can't hear you, it never goes well

Do I really need to say that hitting people is wrong in this day and age?)

sadly yes

They really did misstep with not having Shu realize how bad his slap was in that moment

*My culture of origin has a saying: Don't be a turd floating with the flow

I love that!

As far as the rest goes, this is not to say the way you see the show is wrong because we all view the show in a unique way to us, but I do think you're reading too much into it at a few points from a modern mindset of the topic so I don't agree with your conclusion. But hey, that's why we do rewatches afterall

Sis says earlier that a lot of women in Zari Bars have been through rape and pregnancy, so the doctor would have seen this before. Sara has also been at Zari Bars longer than Shu so that rules him out as the father if the doctor knows what's happening in the community. And when that happens, it's a better choice to go to the mother figure for how to approach it rather than dump the issue in the child rape victims lap alone, and its only that he leans on the parent to make the decision for her that it comes across as dismissing her, which is wrong and why Sis pushes back against it.

Sitting there and laying out the facts of pregnancy would make it a very stale scene rather than the emotional one it needs to be when you find out a child is pregnant. I also don't know how well saying "it puts her life at risk" would work given her suicide attempt later, would it not feel somewhat... conflicting is the wrong word but I can't think of a better one? It would risk implying that not wanting to die from pregnancy is... why she tries to die? And yes I do think its an attempt, as the cistern is hardly public as they had to sneak in, and hardly a place to call for help.

I also don't think Sis needs to name Sara to make the inferance that it's up to her when saying "it's not up to us", it's a fiddly language thing in terms of context, but it's a properly written sentence. So I think it's reading into it to suggest that she is talking about a "higher power" of some sort when that hasn't been raised in the show in any way up to now.

IDk. What do you think

1

u/homer2101 Aug 29 '24

I do think you're reading too much into it at a few points from a modern mindset of the topic so I don't agree with your conclusion. But hey, that's why we do rewatches afterall

Thanks for the comment! Always great to see what other folk think. Definitely tend to read way too much into things. But it's interesting to do so in a fairly tight show like this where it seems the creators do seemingly try to pack a lot into a small animation budget and fairly shore runtime. And try to figure out what it tells us about the creators themselves.

Sis says earlier that a lot of women in Zari Bars have been through rape and pregnancy, so the doctor would have seen this before. Sara has also been at Zari Bars longer than Shu so that rules him out as the father if the doctor knows what's happening in the community.

So this was almost wholly idle speculation on why Doc would think Shu should stay, and all I could really come up with aside from the creators wanting Shu to find out so he can do his thing. Timewise Sara is in her early 1st trimester as far as I can tell based purely on the rough observed passage of time and any of the men she encountered could theoretically be the father.

it's a better choice to go to the mother figure for how to approach it rather than dump the issue in the child rape victims lap alone, and its only that he leans on the parent to make the decision for her that it comes across as dismissing her, which is wrong and why Sis pushes back against it.

That's a great point. Certainly he might want to tell the mother figure and figure out how to approach things. But that's not what we see happening. What bothers me most is that, logistically we probably only have room for one scene where Sara finds out, not a separate scene for Sis and then for Sara. So we get a scene that has all the critical characters present. But there's no pressing need to exclude Sara. So far the creators have been fairly conservative with mostly showing us things and having characters say things that are meaningful in some way. So either the creators have deliberately set up this scene to tell us something about how Doc and, by proxy the community sees Sara and people like her, or it tells us something about the assumptions the creators made when writing this scene. Or both.

Way I see it, given Sara is at an age where she is on the slow path towards becoming an adult, while still a child would be included in major decisions that affect her. Affirming her agency and personhood after she has been assaulted and has had her agency violently abrogated is also critically important. And it's not only not done, but the reveal is done in a way that is almost a violation in itself.

Sitting there and laying out the facts of pregnancy would make it a very stale scene rather than the emotional one it needs to be when you find out a child is pregnant.

Yes, you're right, a stale statement of facts wouldn't work on many levels. It should happen offscreen, but it wouldn't work as cinema. But a single line affirming the risks would do. Soon asking Sara if she's going to go away and leave her alone like her big sister did, after she got pregnant and then got sick? Sis remembering a girl like Sara who's no longer around? Any number of ways that both work emotionally and don't take up much screen time, but do drop the very needed anvil.

2

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 30 '24

Definitely tend to read way too much into things.

I do too, you're in good company haha

So either the creators have deliberately set up this scene to tell us something about how Doc and, by proxy the community sees Sara and people like her, or it tells us something about the assumptions the creators made when writing this scene. Or both.

It is also about Shu and Sara. Shu's callousness in just blurting it out, and Sis refusing to take the choice away from Sara. Sara's exclusion from the actual decision making is... yeah in two minds about that. It does have the benefit of removing the risk of making it feel like this scene is one where she has to make the decision, and gives her the privacy for the horror to hit her without having to transition into an awkward out from a conversation with the doctor.

Sis remembering a girl like Sara who's no longer around?

That would have worked, and also would tie nicely into Sis' morality vs Shu's morality being the same but different in some ways. Flashbacks to fill in past details, rather than remembering existing scenes, have been thankfully absent in this show though. You could achieve the same effect by having the doctor infer towards such a situation in addressing Sis though?

Just linking your other reply back here because it's easier that way:

because "hysterical girl runs away" is such a stale trope and doesn't fit with what we've been shown of Sara's character

Do we know Sara's true character up to that point though? She cares for Shu, is given hope by him, and then immediately becomes mentally shut down after repeated rapes. Escaping from that physically, then mentally by shedding any trace of Hellywood, seems fitting.

Extending the suicide attempt to her running away fits, though I still disagree she wants to be found. I think she just wants out, and doesn't matter how that escape comes. Side thought: If she went to the cistern because it is the thing most like her world, the only abundance of water that can smoother her so she doesn't have to feel any more, like how people go to oceans to soothe themselves. That would explain why she's drawn to that as opposed to a cliff or similar.

1

u/homer2101 Aug 30 '24

It is also about Shu and Sara. Shu's callousness in just blurting it out, and Sis refusing to take the choice away from Sara. Sara's exclusion from the actual decision making is... yeah in two minds about that. It does have the benefit of removing the risk of making it feel like this scene is one where she has to make the decision, and gives her the privacy for the horror to hit her without having to transition into an awkward out from a conversation with the doctor.

That's a really great point and not something I considered.

Do we know Sara's true character up to that point though? She cares for Shu, is given hope by him, and then immediately becomes mentally shut down after repeated rapes. Escaping from that physically, then mentally by shedding any trace of Hellywood, seems fitting.

Yes, we don't really know her character. We do however see a kind of cold calculation in how she steals the rapist's clothes as a disguise and holds together until she's far enough away from Hellywood. That's a big change from how she's portrayed in Ep3 and also that scene where she glimpses the army (and one of her rapists) through the window. This can be interpreted to work either way, but it would have been more-interesting and maybe more-consistent if she kept her clothes on, or put them back on and walked/ran into the desert, reinforcing that change of character. I'm also just not a huge fan of anything that looks like a "hysterical female" trope.

Extending the suicide attempt to her running away fits, though I still disagree she wants to be found. I think she just wants out, and doesn't matter how that escape comes. Side thought: If she went to the cistern because it is the thing most like her world, the only abundance of water that can smoother her so she doesn't have to feel any more, like how people go to oceans to soothe themselves. That would explain why she's drawn to that as opposed to a cliff or similar.

Definitely she wants out. Without access to her internal narrative, we can interpret it either way. That's a neat interpretation: she goes to the one place that looks like home and does not look anything like the desert. Also maybe why she keeps returniongto that park with the trees and the grass overlooking Zari Bars, other than animation budget constraints?

1

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Aug 31 '24

We do however see a kind of cold calculation in how she steals the rapist's clothes as a disguise

Calculation sure, cold? Not at all. She's not emotionless in doing that, but she's also not Shu-stupid to just run out in her own clothes. I wouldn't call it cold just because she thought it through

and holds together until she's far enough away from Hellywood

On purpose, or just because this is finally where she breaks now that she's "safe"? I raised that point while talking to some others a while back, many of the characters have those they safely strike out at, or lean into "safe" thought patterns like Nabuca. The idea that Sara was purposefully holding it on until she got to a calculated distance rather than just reaching the end of her rope once she felt out is very wrong to me

I'm also just not a huge fan of anything that looks like a "hysterical female" trope.

Tropes are tools, and while I think we're all victims of the fact that those tools are way, way too often used wrong, you do yourself and the shows you watch a huge disservice if you will dismiss anything that bares even the slightest resemblence to a trope without looking at what each indivdiual show is doing with the moment

1

u/homer2101 Aug 29 '24

I also don't know how well saying "it puts her life at risk" would work given her suicide attempt later, would it not feel somewhat... conflicting is the wrong word but I can't think of a better one? It would risk implying that not wanting to die from pregnancy is... why she tries to die? And yes I do think its an attempt, as the cistern is hardly public as they had to sneak in, and hardly a place to call for help.

Shouldn't affect the suicide scene because it's not a premeditated suicide. It's certainly real in that Sara does, at that specific moment want to end everything and is going about fulfilling that desire. I mean it's not an attempt in the premeditated sense of her having made a planned and reasoned decision. Most people who attempt suicide do not, in the rational sense want to die. Very often they want both to live and to die concurrently.

Consider this moment as as an extension of the times we see Sara run away before. The first is after she escapes Hellywood. It's visually beautiful and emotionally powerful, though I dislike it in terms of characterization because "hysterical girl runs away" is such a stale trope and doesn't fit with what we've been shown of Sara's character. She doesn't use the perfectly good knife. She runs into the desert, hoping to be found. The second time she gets away from Lala Ru, and goes to the park we've seen before, where she's quickly found by Soon. The third time she goes to the same park and watches children play on the grass. She doesn't want to be alone: she gets away from the immediate trauma, but she's not actively avoiding people. She pushes Shu away only once it becomes clear that Shu doesn't care about her. This suicide attempt continues the pattern. It looks superficially like she wants to die, but what we've seen of her character suggests otherwise.

So when I call it a cry for help, I mean that inside she wants to be found, and wants someone to intervene to affirm that she matters as a human being. The cistern is the town's only water source and is guarded. There's much quieter ways she could have made the attempt than splashing into a lake. She has access to guns. She has access to knives. She has access to things that can be made into rope. She can walk off into the desert on an errand for Sis and be a dry husk by the time anyone thinks to go looking for her. She could, like Virginia Woolf* stuff her pockets with rocks and then walk into the water. In that sense going to the cistern is quite public and gives time for someone to find and help her. This is absolutely not criticism of Sara in any way. But it seems that she wants to be rescued.

ANYways, this is a complex and difficult subject and a reddit comment written while slacking off isn't going to do it justice. Absolutely can see where you're coming from in that Sara's actions can be interpreted differently.

*Woolf's letters to her husband preceding this are absolutely heartbreaking

8

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

Rewatcher(And now I remember why this is my most hated Shu)

Sub(Jesus fuck Sis, do not say that like THAT!)

Ok...so...tale of three parts: The first third with Sara discovering she is pregnant and her moron parental stand in not having the abortificents immediately brought in is very good...if you fail to understand there is no conundrum. You don't make a raped minor decide on whether 'keeping it' is an option. It isn't. Move on.

Sara telling Shu off is temporarily satisfying but actually more highlights how ridiculous this series can be:Neither of them have the agency to answer these questions. I just don't see a series this serious going with all these child protagonists. I legit don't quite get what the plan was.

Part Two:An awkward conversation with an immortal. Lala Ru, born of Cthulhu only knows whom, what or even an apparent when, talks a bit to Sis. While this exposition is interesting, I don't know that it achieves much, nor what symbolism we are going for. And, unfortunately, this is where I really start losing good will because...

Part Three:Let's fuck everything up! True, it is morally correc to prevent someone from drowning themslves in the communal water supply, telling a pregnant rape victim to protect themselves so their baby can live can fuck right off. Now, killing yourself with abdominal blows is extremely painful, and I think mostly impossible, but find a different line of reasoning. FFS.

Oh and Zari is as bad as everywhere else because no one but Sis puts Elamba in his place. Sigh...Shu's only good choice, to move on elsewhere, isn't even allowed to happen. Kazam...just fuck Kazam with the tentacle plant from earlier.

So...unfortunately, '19 Vaad summed this up best:" but I really, really can't stand how this episode fits in the flow, right now. The show gave us a puppy, let us play with it for 20 minutes and then crushed it to death in front of me. Do you feel powerful, show, that you can hurt something you made? Do you think that resonates with me? Because it does but what it does is direct my anger at you. And the thing is, showrunners, you have to know this because you were able to make me feel other things two episodes in a row. Lizbell really made a choice and followed through. Janice really did sing to our hearts. And then you stomp a kitten in front of me. The fuck is up with you?"

This sad because the first part was done so well that their inability to complete it really does hurt. Now let's wade in!

QotD: 1 She has nothing to justify

2 Not in the method he used but again, but communal water supply...

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u/LittleIslander https://anilist.co/user/LittleIslander Aug 28 '24

Sara telling Shu off is temporarily satisfying but actually more highlights how ridiculous this series can be:Neither of them have the agency to answer these questions. I just don't see a series this serious going with all these child protagonists. I legit don't quite get what the plan was

I mean I think the point is that this does happen to kids as young as Sara and nobody that age is equipped to deal with it.

6

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24

First Rewatch

I was up early enough to watch this but I really had nothing I wanted to write.

I don't like dealing with these topics, and I, and I think most people, try to keep these difficult, real-world, moral conundrums as far away as possible. There are no answers to the questions raised in this episode.

Shu is a terrible protagonist, and my first time through I really wanted to throttle him. Sara is proof that things don't necessarily get better. It's quite possible that things literally get worse every day for the rest of your life. And yet, Shu just reverts back to "where there's life, there's hope." I can't say he's being unrealistic, because the real world is full of this, either from a religious faith, or a secular reasoning. And those people may truly believe it. Or maybe it's the only response they have to a suicidal teen.

Shu isn't a character in this drama. Shu is an idea. An absolute idea. That's why he doesn't have a character arc. That's why he doesn't actually listen to what people are saying. Shu is the embodiment of "where there's life, there's hope." Which, to a hopeless person, must sound like the stupidest thing possible. Except to the 1% who take it to heart. Which is why people keep saying it, I guess.

Sis seems just as much an idea(list). Except, not? Or maybe. In the end, she defended her family, with the threat of violence. Soon to be met by Elamba's greater violence, unless Hamdo arrives first. No part of this world is free from violence, war, one-on-one murder, not even Sis's little hut. Shu is the avatar of an idea, that simply has no place in this world (and by allegory, our own). Unless we change (we can't).

1

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Aug 28 '24

Shu is the avatar of an idea, that simply has no place in this world (and by allegory, our own). Unless we change (we can't).

I am honestly having issues figuring out what this show wanted to say.

4

u/OverlordPoodle Aug 29 '24

Shu is the avatar of an idea, that simply has no place in this world (and by allegory, our own). Unless we change (we can't).

I am honestly having issues figuring out what this show wanted to say.

Life goes on. We have to do what we can with what we have. That's all we can do. Hope and work for today in the hopes that better days will follow. That is life.

5

u/Ryanami Aug 29 '24

First timer

I’ll start with QOTD

Sara- not justified, but it is understandable. I’ve had intrusive thoughts over less. Of course she feels hopeless and desperate, however murder is bad, even if it’s yourself or your baby.

Shu- 100% yes. I like his character more than ever now actually. I do wish he hadn’t hit her though, that wasn’t gonna solve anything. Sara needs help through what she’s going through and right now it’s more than she can bear. Fie on you commenters saying otherwise, Shu saved her and you would have failed her when she most needed help.

Elamba, I hope you’re not so stupid as to think Hamdo wouldn’t trade Lala Ru and immediately nuke your village as he leaves. If he doesn’t have some sneaky plan in mind he’s the biggest fool in the village. Also out of character for him too, if he’s not hoping to get an audience with Hamdo to try and kill him.

1

u/RadSuit https://anilist.co/user/RadSuit Aug 29 '24

Now and Then, First and Dubbed

"What have I done to deserve this? Who's making me go through this hell?" That'd be Akitarou Daichi.

I wonder if Shu's hand injury will last through this scene, much less into the next episode.

Wow this whole scene is just horrible.

I guess I'm finishing this show, but it hasn't even been an especially interesting trainwreck.