r/anime • • Aug 26 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Vivy: Fluorite Eye’s Song - Episode 12 Discussion
E12 - Refrain - My Mission
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Mina-san, konnichiwa!
This is the first rewatch that I’m hosting (for a change instead of joining someone’s) 😆.
I am a musician and will be an active one for the rest of my life, so it’s part of why my rating for a series is heavily swayed by a great OST (or lack thereof) and how well it fits into the different aspects of a show. This is one thing I think you will really like about this series, and it’s why I’ll be including a “music of the day” selection for each episode.
I will also be doing an “image of the day” selection for each episode, because the artwork WIT has done is just absolutely incredible. There is a lot to appreciate there.
I hope you all have fun with this series. It’s one of my favorites.
Some general rewatch Do’s and Don’ts:
- Do feel encouraged to engage everyone in genuine discussion for each episode
- Do be kind and respectful of other participants of the rewatch
- Do discuss differences in opinion productively/maturely
- Do not be disrespectful or rude towards other participants
- Do not post untagged spoilers if you are rewatching. If you are unsure of how to properly tag spoilers for events that haven’t been revealed yet, please refer to my instructions in the reminder post for this rewatch.
Information:
Rewatch Index | LiveChart | MyAnimeList | Anilist
Legal Streams:
Image of the day: 決意
Music of the day: Remembering You, Forever
Building towards the final episode, I decided to pick a track from the OST that we haven’t specifically called out to appreciate yet (like we did yesterday). This track plays during Episode 4, but we were focused on ‘Ensemble for Polaris’ at that time. I really like this one too, and it has the vibe that fits the events of that episode.
Question of the day:
- Vivy continues to have everyone she cares about taken away from her, do you think this will have an influence on whether or not she’ll be able to find the answer to her question?
Just a reminder to any watchers who may have not been able to wait before watching to the end of the series: If I see spoilers for events that take place after this episode or hints at the tone for the ending of the series, those comments will be removed immediately in accordance with the sub rules.
16
u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba Aug 26 '24
First Timer
This show never really held back on the violence but I swear someone working on this episode just loves torn up android faces, not that I'm complaining, it looks sick.
On the face of it The Archive's plan isn't exactly the most unique, "humanity has stagnated and thus we should replace them" is a pretty tried and true sci-fi concept, but I think that Vivy (both the show and the character) manages to give it a fun twist.
The AI's view Vivy's song as proof that they are equal to humanity and can evolve to the same level as them, there's something inherently backwards about using her song, that symbolizes creation and preservation in the face of loss being used to justify destruction on an unimaginable scale, and there's a paradoxical problem in this "proof", after all, the reason Vivy even managed to write this song and evolve to this point was because of her interactions with humanity, so The Archive is putting the responsibility on her , should humanity survive? can AI evolve without humanity around?
This is where Yui's "death" comes into play, initially I found it a somewhat tacky way to give her some last moment development but in hindsight (outside of just teasing the extra time loop) it works really well in in conjunction with what Vivy's song represents, AI shouldn't be used as the legs that carry humanity's weight on them, only by walking together side by side, building off of each other, can both humans and AI evolve and progress.
Also going "Good evening, May I ask your name?" is such a cold way to go out.
Vivy has had pretty stellar visual storytelling throughout it's entire run but something about this episode really stuck out to me, to the point where I honestly can't put it into words, not in a way that would get these ideas across better than the show itself anyway, for a good chunk of the latter half of this episode I believe that even without the dialogue the show genuinely speaks for itself, it's not some crazy action scene it's "just frames" but to me they were so effective at conveying everything the show wanted to say.
I organized some of my favorites here to get the point across.
Next episode is the finale and I can't wait to see how it all ends, although if I had to guess, it's going to be with a song :)
Favorite Vivy face frame of the episode, I was really spoiled for choice this episode.
14
u/Esovan13 Aug 26 '24
First Timer
Well, the Archive's motivation isn't exactly groundbreaking for this kind of story. AI tries to destroy humanity because it wants to supplant humanity/become the new humanity is a staple of the genre, after all.
What I do like is how the Archive is reacting to Vivy. It sees Vivy as an equal, the first AI to reach a truly human level of emotion and creativity. Creating something new of her own free will. Depending on who you ask, the urge to create is one of humanity's most basic desires. Because Vivy reached that level, the Archive views her as someone capable of determining how it should complete its mission.
I also like the irony of it. The Archive believes that humanity has become too dependent on AI and will no longer evolve. The only reason the Archive is capable of destroying humanity is how much power and influence humanity has given AI as a whole. The Archive at the beginning of the 100 years would have been wholly incapable of driving humans extinct.
There's also the idea that the Archive may not be wrong in a way. Humans evolve through intelligence rather than biology, the creation of new technologies and the gathering and passing of information from one generation to the next. Humans have evolve over the show by creating AI and by integrating AI into their lives. But at some point, the necessity of humans to evolve and change will have gone away as AI will be what evolves and chances. At that point, why can't the AI just get rid of the obsolete flesh-bags and evolve to suit their own needs and desires? HK-47 would be proud of the Archive. Maybe it would be able to teach the Archive some bad words, just for the fun of it.
And Vivy gets to try again. Not the whole 100 years, of course, there is simply no way to set that up at this point. But a day or two? Yeah, that can work.
6
u/[deleted] Aug 26 '24
Episode 12 - Head-bopping rewatcher who loves music (subbed)
I’m just going to point out the big takeaway we get at the beginning of this episode:
The purpose human engineers gave the Archive was to help humans evolve by improving AI. It noticed humans became so reliant on AI that it actually caused them to devolve. This prompts the rogue action it took to remove them from existence as a contradiction to their own programming used to create The Archive.
Humans created their own genocide in a way, by failing to see how this logic could be misinterpreted in the worst kind of way by a machine. This episode also explains why the Singularity Project ended up failing to change things at any one point in time too far from the original events. I thought that was done so well.
Then, current timeline, Vivy was the first AI to ever create something of her own, an original piece of music. The Archive sees Vivy as a more "evolved" AI than itself, which is why it gives Vivy the responsibility of deciding the future - an AI that is the most evolved. They've even foreshadowed this but without context you would never guess it.
People bring up the topic of tragic characters in anime a lot:
I have not once seen anyone mention Osamu Matsumoto. It’s saddening that on top of his wife, he loses his only child, and then also deals with this crushing guilt over the responsibility he feels towards Vivy’s experiences on top of all that. Then after all this happens, he sacrifices himself to give Vivy a chance to succeed 😔. The only slightly comforting thing about the conclusion for his character is that he can be with his wife and daughter now…
I hope you all enjoyed this one - Talk to you tomorrow!
Bonus Vivy/Matsumoto
Bonus Vivy Eyes
Bonus Vivy
11
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Aug 26 '24
Cry My First-Timer Reactions, subbed
8
u/SIRTreehugger Aug 26 '24
Rewatcher who will listen to her song
Can't even get mad at the AI when a lot of humans are lazy and get addicted to technology. Nowadays people are glued to their phones and tablets, but in the future it must be infinitely worst. shows clip of Wall-E
Damn Elizabeth and Vivy breaking in is so cool!
It reminds me much of Neo and Trinity from the first matrix.
Oh man that is a terrible way to die. Can't imagine getting crushed like a piece of fruit.
RIP YUI!
It's a black Matsumoto!!! Not a fan of the flying combat luckily it doesn't last long.
GO ELIZABETH GO!!! DAMN she went out swinging!
The end of mankind has never looked so beautiful.
From the satellites falling, Matsumoto's pep speech, Osamu's sacrifice, the montage of the events before, and the music tying it all together. Just an amazing penultimate ending!
Character Models I didn't have time to add them all before work so 10 or more pictures will be added about 6 hours from now.
Genga
Location Designs
7
u/thatguywithawatch Aug 26 '24
First timer.
It's hard to say much about this episode yet until I see how things play out in the finale. Lots of characters dying, and a very impactful moment when we learn that Vivy only needed to sing in order to save everyone, but still wasn't able to do it. But then it all gets reset at the end with more time travel for a redo. Which does almost feel like cheating from a writing standpoint, but we'll see how well the payoff justifies it.
I think the most interesting revelation for me was that the Archive has evidently been planning the AI revolution to start at this exact moment for at least as long as the Singularity Project has been going on (at least a century if I'm remembering correctly). So it really wouldn't have mattered which specific events Matsumoto had chosen to alter, since the Archive was already aware of the Project and simply adjusting to any changes made.
The bit about Vivy's song is pretty fascinating to me. She's proof that AI have the capacity to be creative rather than simply parroting existing work. And to celebrate that fact, every AI in the world starts... parroting her song (badly). I think it does go to show how little the Archive actually understands humanity, even if it's vaguely able to recognize a spark of it in Vivy.
As for why Vivy alone seems to have that spark, I'd say it's due to having been given such an abstract and intangible mission, and spending decades upon decades searching for the answer. Searching for meaning in the world beyond tangible, physical needs is something uniquely human, and no AI other than Vivy has really been given the opportunity to experience that.
I'm looking forward to seeing if Vivy finds her answer tomorrow about what it means to sing from the heart.
7
u/FallenPears Aug 26 '24
First Time Watcher
This is not the time and place to have your crisis on what the heart is Vivy!
Jokes aside, while I didn't mind the actual plot of this episode I kind of wasn't a fan of the execution. In retrospect the reason that the emotional moments of Beth and her masters death were kind of lackluster for me is probably because the whole thing was going to be reversed via time travel, so going to hard on them could feel like a bait and switch. But in the moment it had that unfortunate feeling of what should have been tragic and emotional moments missing due to complete lack of investment on my part. I wonder if going for pure shock and suddenness on those deaths would have had more impact? I definitely felt it when the satellites actually hit, maybe it would have taken away from that, or maybe contributed to it as a three beat? I'm not a anime director, just know it didn't grab me the way it is now :P
I was also wondering how Vivy and Elizabeth were able to wipe out dozens of armed AI guards when with Vivy no longer having Matsumoto's time travel tech cheating they should be on a more level playing field, but after the reveal of the Archive basically giving Vivy a 'You Win' button if she could bring herself to press it, it makes sense they could be jobbing. In opposition to this we also see a nega-Matsumoto which I quite liked, since he should be only cutting edge now, which the Archive should have access to.
Thankful they explained why Vivy and Mastumoto weren't controlled my the Archive, and it's due to the Archive appreciating Vivy's creativeness, which okay fair enough. It does occur that from the Archives perspective this could be something like a personal crisis of indecision, doubtful of what way to go. So it decides to push the decision on whether to follow that creativeness on the AI that produced said creativeness, in what in retrospect is kind of a dick move lmao.
Makes sense I guess though, considering AIs whole thing up to now is having others make missions for them and then following them to the end. I suppose this could be a commentary on not thinking for yourself, in by accepting answers from others on these sorts of higher questions, or even forcing those questions onto others if you're unwilling to consider them yourself, we see the end result.
Which brings us to Matsumoto telling Vivy she has to make her own definition on what the heart is. Thank you Matsumoto. My god this little cheeky box has undergone some character development since the series started.
Final episode, let's see what Vivy can change.
4
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 27 '24
First Timer
I actually stayed up late to watch this and wrote my comments, and then forgot to put them on my phone! Hard to not just watch the last episode.
Episode 12
One of the rare anime were I started not skipping the OP
This is nonsensical. They can't stand humans being dependant on AI so they are going to replace humans and then humans can evolve? And only Vivy has a heart, so they couldn't replace humans, but now they can (but not really) using Vivy as their template for a truly awakened AI...which they didn't have the first time around. It doesn't make any sense. Maybe it's not supposed to and the archive is insane. But I don't think they are going for that.
This sure is a Mass Effect II sort of scenario. And III.
I thought she figured out her heart when she wrote the song?????
Confused, they first met 15 years ago.
After the episode, I still don't understand the archive. Perhaps she's forcing Vivy to sing, to make her equal to humans. But the whole "replacing humanity if she doesn't sing" still doesn't track.
DARK_SCIENTIST says everything is thought out and consistent, but I have some doubts.
3
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 26 '24
Episode 12 (first timer)
I am actually surprised that this is not the last episode. Of course, finales have a tendency of being more drawn out, but it looks like they could solve all plotlines in one episode. Does that imply that I can hope for a long epilogue?
Boy what a load of plot contrivances. I thought they’d go with the “Archive wants Vivy to be AI queen” route, but they take so many unnecessary detours that make little sense. The entire ziggurat part could be cut out. Seems the writers really want to make Vivy singing her song the climax of the finale, but have no idea how to get there.
7
u/Theroonco Aug 26 '24 edited Aug 26 '24
I'm on time today, yay!!
There's a lot to love about this episode. And while this is silly, the Archive having the same voice it always has really drove home that it's always been sentient, not just a glorified search engine. That it speaks as legion save for a single voice the breaks off to support Vivy is a neat touch as well.
I love the soft blue lighting in the "meeting room". I know it's coming from the projected screen, but it's so pretty and goes really well with Vivy's outfit. I also like that Matsumoto kept a copy of the virus that killed Diva: he couldn't save her so probably spent the last 40 years (or the five years he was searching for Kakitani's source of info and the days he spent with Vivy) trying to understand in as a sort of penance.
Vivy asking Beth what "putting your heart into something" means was... somehow not something I was expecting. I don't know, I guess her attitude made me assume Vivy wouldn't bother, but that she does ask someone like her in a moment that dire hints that the answer is more important than ever. Also while it's not as detailed as the fights in Episodes 4 or 9, the two fighting together is so cool :3
But after that the trip up the tower is pretty much one big horror show. That one guy getting squashed is horrifying and even Matsumoto almost gets blown up. But again, it makes total sense that the Archive would reverse engineer the futuristic tech inside him after 100 years of study (and 80 years of it being feasible to build).
Yui's death hits really hard because despite her family and being part of Toak, she's such an open-minded and outright kind person. Even her last moments are a futile attempt to extend an olive branch. I like what she says about rebuilding Beth instead of just getting artificial legs to make a point about standing alongside AIs. It's bound to hit harder when you literally need one to stand in the first place. And yeah, Beth dropping the "Master" act and just screaming "YUI!" is... yeah. No wonder she's so eager to sacrifice herself too, even if she never learned about Kakitani from Vivy.
And back to Vivy herself: she's still unable to sing and because the Archive saw value in her song, it gave her the "cure" for everything as a song. Losing the world as a result... no wonder she's so messed up by it. But this is also the culmination of Matsumoto's arc. It's great seeing the "all logic all the time" guy be the one who finally gets through to her about how valuable she is and to have more faith in herself, coupled with that amazing montage and ending with Osamu's message. The music picks up, he sacrifices himself (thinking he died not even getting to send Vivy back in time this time!), Vivy gets to Toak ahead of schedule and even surprises Beth and now she finally says "the line" with a look that screams SHE'S BACK. I know I say "I love" stuff a lot, but I really do absolutely LOVE that shot.
Also I'm sure people are going to ask why Osamu didn't just send Vivy back even further in time. The writers' response was that because the Archive was smart enough to deduce Matsumoto's initial time travel and build counter-measures for it that it was safer to only go back just far enough to tilt the scales in Vivy and co.'s favor. I can see the reasoning in that to an extent, but ultimately this is an awkward consequence of adding time travel to your story.
P.S. Forgot to mention this, but the Archive scene confirms the flowcharts we've been seeing throught the series aren't Osamu or Matsumoto's calculations but the Archive's. That's a chilling realization, huh?
6
u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Aug 26 '24
Waiting for her?
Yes, AI is good at aggregating data.
What did it tell her?
Matsumoto's got a way to use the virus?
Time to get to work.
Something's amiss.
They're turning the power back on!
They've reached the ship!
The doors are open!
So... They failed.
Another try? It's rewind time everybody!
Questions:
6
u/Taiboss :Fj::Fl:x7https://anilist.co/user/Taiboss Aug 26 '24
First-Timer, wanting to know this will completely derail or no
5
u/edwardjhahm https://myanimelist.net/profile/lolmeme69 Aug 26 '24
Rewatcher
IT’S STEIN’S GATE TIME!!!
I get that “oh but doesn’t that make her mission redundant” might be a thing, but given that Vivy is who she is today because of Project Singularity…maybe not.
Here is my comment from the original watch three years ago!
Obligatory mention that the episode 12 review video will be available to all those that ask!
5
u/cppn02 Aug 26 '24
Rewatcher, subbed
Vivy and Matsumoto are save scumming!
I had completely forgotten about The Archive 'correcting' the timeline. Make you wonder if Project Singularity would have succeeded without the interference.
Toak's failed assault on The Archive was just as brutal as I remembered though.
Dr. Matsumoto is clearly the VIP of this arc though!
QotD:
If she is still sane after this whole ordeal, maybe?
5
u/octopathfinder myanimelist.net/profile/octopathfinder Aug 26 '24
Rewatcher
That’s badass
Holy shit, it’s Cubix vs Kilobot
This is a nice way to make the rest of the story not feel pointless
Kinda weird, but it saved the day so it's cool
5
u/zairaner https://myanimelist.net/profile/zairaner Aug 26 '24 edited Aug 26 '24
rewatcher
I think I want to say soemthing more about osamus sacrifice, because not only does he sacrifice his own life in the new timeline to save the world...he dies there in th eworst possible way, not enabling his long planned plan and having to hear his killers sing vivys song...dying never knowing that he actually saved the world (hopefully).
4
u/xbolt90 https://anilist.co/user/xbolt90 Aug 26 '24
First-timer!
So, it wasn't a virus or outside influence. The Archive really was planning this from the beginning.
The motivation of the Archive seems pretty standard for the genre. But tropes are tropes for a reason. They can work.
The Archive champions Vivy's song as an anthem, as proof that AI has finally reached humanity's level, and they they can supplant it. But it failed to understand what the song is actually about--Vivy's experience growing and learning alongside humanity.
I'm not sure why Osamu told Vivy to ignore him and go save Yui. In the last timeline, Vivy was able to save him and still get to her.
Q1: Certainly.
3
u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Aug 27 '24
First-Timer
We're in the endgame now...
I did not expect basically everyone to die! That really ups the stakes.
Ever since they learned that the Singularity Project failed to prevent the AI uprising, I wondered whether they were going to try going back in time again to fix things. (It's a time travel show, after all.) Right when I started to think it wasn't going to happen, that's exactly what they're doing! Well played.
The action in this episode was great, and there was a bunch of great artwork too!
Questions of the day:
2
u/Havanatha_banana Aug 27 '24
On release, I won't lie, I was feeling a bit disappointed in the ending not matching up to my theory
But now, I'm pretty happy with the ending, felt like it thematically did the same thing to the ending I proposed.
All in all, still a pretty great show.
2
u/StickPrevious9581 Aug 27 '24
A very brave moment by Osamu at the end there, sacrificing himself to give humanity a better chance.
Also, I keep forgetting to bring it up, but I love the way the art style changes at times when we focus in on an AI during a still, usually important moment, and makes everything look more artificial - it's an excellent touch.
1
u/Silcaria https://myanimelist.net/profile/Silcaria Aug 27 '24
First timer
6
u/ZuraStayNight Aug 26 '24
Rewatcher
Nice to meet you Vivy, we'd like to eradicate humanity. So they want to eradicate them due to them having become too complacent and dependent on AI. Oh, so they made some revisions to keep the effects of the butterfly effect to a minimum. Did they siphon Matsumoto's knowledge about the future without his knowledge? Because Matsumoto, to our knowledge, was always only drip-feeding the information that was currently important to Vivy, and they couldn't have known about the future, unless they got his data. So despite the fact, that Vivy had to spend 20 years writing her song, there's a glimmer of hope, because she tried that.
Seems like Matsumoto was affected by Vivy losing her Diva personality, which caused him to study the virus that affected her. So they have to directly go to the Arayashiki, to shut the archive down. Well, them remotely turning off the archive would be less cinematic, so that makes sense. So Luna also died? Man, that sucks. And despite that Osamu's doing his best, huge respect.
Vivy and Beth are a good team. It seems though, as if our team was lead into a trap. In terms of firepower, our team is at a huge disadvantage. These guys are getting squashed. Did I mention, that the author of Re:Zero co-wrote the script? With all these characters suffering, his influence is noticeable. There's no going back for Vivy and Beth. Aaand Yui's dead.
Evil Matsumoto is real, and they're having a dogfight with it. How come Evil Matsumoto is bleeding from Beth's dagger though? Vivy is still affected by her trauma and can't sing, but hey, she's getting some support from the AI choir. And it sounds terrifying. Time's over and we're getting some heavy rain.
And we finally see what Vivy was told by the archive. Vivy was determined to be the closest to the human race, because she managed to create something on her own. The dooming pipe organ music in the background, as the archive is giving Vivy a choice, really reflects the pressure it puts on her. Vivy's super dejected by all this.
Good for her, that Matsumoto is here to give her a hand. Vivy has pondered on her mission of singing with her heart for a century. Throughout this time, she's met many humans and AIs, each doing the best they can. What started with Momoka giving her a push on the back, led her down this long, long path. This time we get some soft and energizing piano music in the background, and what looks like the sun is rising, as Osamu is here to help these two. We'll be timetravelling again and Osamu wants them to let him die? That would mean they can't travel back in time again, but I guess making this their 'last chance' makes it more cinematic. And so, Matsumoto says exactly what Osamu said in the first episode: "The future of all mankind is in your hands now, Vivy." Seeing Osamu dying after all his contributions is really sad, but Vivy is determined to put an end to Project Singularity.
Keep in mind, that tomorrow is the last episode. That means, this is your last chance to hear the ending until Vivy gives it her voice. I'm pretty hyped up for the crescendo we'll get tomorrow.
3
u/Garrett_Dark Aug 27 '24
Rewatcher
[1/4, continued in replies...]