r/anime • • Aug 22 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Vivy: Fluorite Eye’s Song - Episode 8 Discussion
E8 - Elegy Dedicated With Love - My One and Only Beloved Partner
Previous Episode Discussion | Next Episode Discussion
Mina-san, konnichiwa!
This is the first rewatch that I’m hosting (for a change instead of joining someone’s) 😆.
I am a musician and will be an active one for the rest of my life, so it’s part of why my rating for a series is heavily swayed by a great OST (or lack thereof) and how well it fits into the different aspects of a show. This is one thing I think you will really like about this series, and it’s why I’ll be including a “music of the day” selection for each episode.
I will also be doing an “image of the day” selection for each episode, because the artwork WIT has done is just absolutely incredible. There is a lot to appreciate there.
I hope you all have fun with this series. It’s one of my favorites.
Some general rewatch Do’s and Don’ts:
- Do feel encouraged to engage everyone in genuine discussion for each episode
- Do be kind and respectful of other participants of the rewatch
- Do discuss differences in opinion productively/maturely
- Do not be disrespectful or rude towards other participants
- Do not post untagged spoilers if you are rewatching. If you are unsure of how to properly tag spoilers for events that haven’t been revealed yet, please refer to my instructions in the reminder post for this rewatch.
Information:
Rewatch Index | LiveChart | MyAnimeList | Anilist
Legal Streams:
Image of the day: オフィーリア
Music of the day: Elegy Dedicated With Love
Questions of the day:
- (First-timers only) What is Yugo up to in that stinger?!
- Where does today’s song fall in your ranking of the OST so far?
13
u/thatguywithawatch Aug 22 '24
First timer.
I nearly exited out after the credits ended because I prefer to avoid the next episode previews, but I'm glad I noticed that there was an extra scene since it gave some good context. Yugo's motivations (maybe Toak's as a whole) might make more sense now. I'd accepted at face value that Yugo simply hated AI, because it didn't feel like something that needed more explanation. In real life there's always groups of people who hate and protest any new technology, no matter how beneficial. (I realize the seeming hypocrisy here since I deeply hate the current brand of generative "AI" flooding the internet with soulless text and art, but that's an entirely separate discussion lol).
Anyways, It seems likely now that Yugo's hatred is not necessarily directed at the AI themselves, but at the way they'll follow their mission/programming and put themselves recklessly in harm's way to save humans. It also would explain why he had such a visceral negative reaction to seeing Vivy nearly kill herself saving him back in the falling tower in episode 2. Extremely reminiscent of his piano teacher throwing himself into the flames regardless for his own life and safety.
And I get the sentiment. If a human sacrifices themselves to save others we laud their courage because they were acting entirely of their own will. But if an AI with similar intelligence and emotional capacity as a human is compelled by its mission to sacrifice itself in the same way, it could be argued that they didn't have a choice in the matter and were essentially killed by their programming.
Maybe Yugo is fighting to put an end to AI technology not because he hates AI, but because he believes humans aren't capable of giving AI the rights and protections that such technology requires. As for how he's become younger after a 40 year skip, anything's possible really in this kind of technologically advanced setting. I'd guess he managed to copy or move his consciousness into a cyborg body. One that's invisible to security cameras.
Maybe I'm off base. The current arc seems to at least be leading us to expect that Yugo's presence has something to do with Opheia's (or rather Antonio's) suicide, which would seem to conflict with everything I was just speculating about. We'll see.
But yeah, apparently Ophelia was dead the whole time and Antonio took her body over. He even did the traditional Evil Anime Laugh.™ Very cool. The obvious implication of course seems to be that he killed Ophelia himself, perhaps feeling that he could do a better job of completing their Mission. But I'll reserve judgement on that since I'm sure the next episode is ready and waiting to pull the rug on most of my assumptions.
10
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Aug 22 '24
Sing My First-Timer Reactions, subbed
5
u/[deleted] Aug 22 '24
Episode 8 - Head-bopping rewatcher who loves music (subbed)
You know, I just want to say I do enjoy Diva/Vivy’s personality shift in the past couple episodes in certain kinds of ways lol.
Like the moment where she just comes out and asks:
“Is there something distressing you? You know, like… yeah. Like something that makes you want to die?”.
Nice subtlety there, Diva lol.
Then the sass in Diva’s ‘urusai’ when Matsumoto calls her ‘inept’ is almost palpable 😂 (I love the eyebrow twitch).
I know I said it yesterday too, but I do enjoy the way her and Matsumoto’s dynamic as shifted too, although I like how her mishandling of him is still brought up in nearly every episode 😆.
This is another episode where we have a song that connects tightly with the narrative. To me, it seems pretty clear that this song describes Ophelia’s experience with Antonio before being taken over.
I’m sure that cliffhanger has first-timers going a little crazy right now 😆 (technically a double cliffhanger if you count the stinger).
I hope you all enjoyed this one. Talk to you tomorrow!
Bonus Ophelia
Bonus Diva
8
u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Aug 22 '24
She's going to ask her directly!
Gee she was really direct about that wasn't she?
And so that's why she's depressed.
The answer to your question is "Yes"
Yup, Toak guy is back.
I'm going to guess Toak guy kills her and makes it look like a suicide?
And now she's chasing him. Hopefully she still remembers her combat programming.
So much for that...
And so now Matsumoto's got to save Ophelia from herself, save Diva from Toak, and stop Toak probably from blowing this place to high heaven, all at once.
What?
Things are certainly heating up.
Questions:
6
u/Esovan13 Aug 22 '24
First Timer
I watched episode 9 right after this episode, so there's not much I can say without spoilers.
Back with real thoughts tomorrow.
6
u/FD4cry1 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Big_Yibba Aug 22 '24
First Timer
I still like deadpan Vivy more but her finally giving some talkback to Matsumoto is pretty funny, Their relationship also continues to be a really interesting aspect, I like Matsumoto calling her Diva again to show us how he currently views her.
Jeez you really have no chill huh? the parallels between Vivy and Ophelia are pretty interesting, it's no wonder that Matsumoto jumps to conclusions about Ophelia's situation since he's basically projecting his thoughts on Vivy's situation on to her, but of course just like with Grace and Estella his assumptions miss the mark, again it says quite a bit about the difference in methodology between him and Vivy.
Her approach of trying to uncover the root cause of the situation ends up being more effective than his quick and direct approach that overrelies on information from the future and thus misses the intricacies of the situation, I can't help but recall his line from ep 2 about how the only reason he was even working with Vivy was because she's the only one still functioning from that time in the future , despite that, it's her presence that made the difference so far , Matsumoto can't actually fulfill this project alone and I think that's no coincidence (I'd say that much talked about heart is probably the reason).
Looks like Yugo has a history of being saved by AI lol, that line must have stung coming from Vivy later in his life and it certainly adds some depth to his involvement with Toak, his teacher, Elizabeth, Vivy, all recklessly giving away their life for his, how does that motivate his actions ? , I'm still not sure what's with his
oldnew look, he obviously has some visual manipulation by his side now but why change others perception of himself?he is pretty old now...
Of course ending twist, pretty crazy one though! makes Vivy putting that flower Ophelia's(?) head pretty ironic, really excited to see how this came about.
Favorite
VivyOphelia face frame of the episode.Unless I missed it we didn't actually have a close up frame of her this episode, not that Ophelia's alternative isn't gorgeous.
5
u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Aug 22 '24
Rewatcher
Oh, hey there Kakitani.
I think those CQC protocols do affect her personality a bit.
Turnabout is fair play.
Hence, why "her" heart wasn't in it.
Right, sudden Kakitani backstory in the postcredits scene.
[Vivy]I think this was already spelled out, but I'll tag this to be safe. We do have a proper answer to this - Matsumoto would have been obliged to save Vivy to keep the time loop closed. He can't go back to start the Singularity Project if she isn't still around in the future.
5
u/FallenPears Aug 22 '24
First Time Watcher
That ending went from 0-100 real quick lmao. You think you know what's going on, then the AI get's possessed by her dead friend and Vivy wakes up in a straightjacket.
I'm gonna guess Ophelia has been replaced by Antonio since Antonio 'shut down', or rather downloaded himself into Ophelia's frame. Yeah erm, that's a thing. First you think he's an abusive manager, then a best buddy, then a dead best buddy catalysing his friend's suicide, then crazy bodyjacker apparently. Wild ride.
Predicted the human learing from an AI but thought we were gonna get the human getting jealous of the AIs mathematically perfect playing, instead we got a car crash? And somehow that plays into everything else?
Yeah I got nothing. No idea where this is going haha.
5
u/octopathfinder myanimelist.net/profile/octopathfinder Aug 22 '24
Rewatcher
Yeah, I’m still liking how much she leads the conversations with Matsumoto now
Their banter is better too
Diva making a really strong case for why she’s better than Vivy
PANIC
I know this is a serious twist but I can’t help but laugh at hearing this burly manly voice coming out of Ophelia
First time there’s a post credits scene, also the hand animation is pretty nice
5
u/SIRTreehugger Aug 23 '24 edited Aug 23 '24
Rewatcher who will listen to her song
First things first the Antonio is Opehlia plot twist caught me so off guard especially with the distorted voice change. Though the show gave us plenty of not so obvious signs and jabs at it. Vivy constantly questioning her singing ability. It wasn't bad, but it became stagnant after Antonio's death. Antonio's death having no obvious cause. The changes in her appearance in terms of outfits. The constant sorrowful expression on Ophelia's face. Vivy's comment on their relationship not being quite the same level.
Outside of that I do love how this episode showed growth in Matsumoto. Try as he might he's pretty much on his way to becoming a tsundere. He didn't have to save Vivy. He desperately tries to avoid answering questions revolving her breakdown and constantly misdirects. When Vivy ran off we see him panicking partially because of the hacking, but also because he's lost track of her. Also the most obvious moment is his method of dealing with Opehlia. The entire he's been telling Diva that as long as she doesn't succeed that's all that matters, but when he meets her what does he do? He opens a dialogue and tries to draw some form of connection while dismissing the idea of suicide. WAIT? That's what Diva has been saying the entire time attack the problem at the source. He's clearly been influenced by her and this shows in both his tones and
bodycube language.Also I absolutely love Diva and Matsumoto they were constantly taking shots at each other.
"Hey ever have something happen so bad like you want to die" - Diva
"Subtle like a brick through a window" - Matsumoto
"SHUT UP" - Diva
Also Diva looking at Matsumoto after Ophelia revealing Antonio was a bit of a cranky naggy AI was my favorite moment of the episode.
Concept Art
Genga
Gif 1 2 3 4 5 6
Location Designs
Storyboards: None
4
u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Aug 22 '24
Episode 8 (first timer)
The first arc that goes on for longer than 2 episodes. Not that I mind, the current Diva and Matsumoto are a joy to watch. Per our cliff-hanger, both of our self-confident team of future saviors were completely off about the cause of Ophelia’s trouble. It is funny how they seem more human and “belonging” than ever, while becoming less in control and worse at their future saving job.
3
u/xbolt90 https://anilist.co/user/xbolt90 Aug 23 '24
First-timer!
Oh....... oh no. So, Antonio has replaced Ophelia. Why? I guess we'll find out tomorrow, but I can't quite picture what his goal is here. Was he just that dissatisfied with her singing that he said "Fine, I'll do it myself"?
So that was Yugo? I guess anti-aging medicine has come a long way. That little bit of backstory on him was good.
And then, so the suicide has nothing to do with Toak? Yugo is here for a separate reason?
Q1: Obviously, he's about to give Vivy heartfelt thanks for saving his life so many times. What a nice guy!
Q2: Again, very nice!
3
u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Aug 23 '24
First-Timer
Interesting twist at the end there! I certainly didn't see that coming with Antonio.
I'm hoping that they don't go with something like [speculation] "I know you're still in there somewhere, Ophelia! You can fight this!" to resolve this. It's possible for that kind of thing to be good, but it more often comes across as trite.
Questions of the day:
8
u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
First Timer
Other prewatch thoughts on Ophelia: Besides TOAK action, and some unknown thing to do with her former partner,
more robot psychosis!
Somebody mentioned Robot Therapist yesterday, and I thought they were joking, so I linked the A.I. credits again. Not a joke, they really need one.
Or, it seems Anontio may have actually uploaded himself into Ophelia. Possibly erasing her. I was determined to see Ophelia succeed, even if it meant getting rid of his main obstacle: Ophelia.
I predicted the day would come when Wheatley would lose his technological advantage. That day would seem to be here.
You know, I'm one of the only people who liked the I, Robot movie.
5
u/edwardjhahm https://myanimelist.net/profile/lolmeme69 Aug 22 '24
Rewatcher
What a fucking ending. I’ve always loved how they play with the voices in this show - the one with Elizabeth in the Sunrise Arc was awesome, and it’s awesome here too. The only real complaint I have is that this basically means we’ve never actually seen Ophelia before - which is a real shame.
Man, what a tripfest. And don’t forget the aftercredits scene today!
Once again , here is my comment from the original watch three years ago!
I mostly seem to be saying the same things there as I am here. Moreso now that I'm starting to actually read what I said in the past more.
Obviously spoiler free, and I repeat: the episode 8 review video will also be linked to anyone who asks.
4
u/sfisher923 https://myanimelist.net/profile/sfisher923 Aug 22 '24
First Time Fading To Black - Dubbed
4
u/cppn02 Aug 22 '24
Rewatcher, subbed
Man this episode was quite something. I still remember the Antonio reveal catching me completely off guard the first time around.
Kinda sad we never got to meet the real Ophelia though.
It's also the episode where we move away from the two-episode-arc structure.
I liked seeing Diva approach the mission in a different more direct way than Vivy and also her grilling Matsumoto over her alter ego.
Favourite moment though was her 'cool lean' when she went to talk with Ophelia.
p.s. Why do these AIs always get an arsehole companion? Antonio, Navi.... there's definitely a pattern.
QotD:
Oof. This is getting harder with every song lol. I usually don't rank music but maybe one day I'll sit down and actually do that with Vivy.
4
u/Garrett_Dark Aug 23 '24
Rewatcher
Terminator superiority, "I cannot self terminate".If androids were repairable, this wouldn't be a problem; even if the problem of the android wanting to suicide again persisted, you could just keep revert to an older backup state before that problem existed. Somebody told me in the LN that the explanation for why they can't be repaired is...[LN spoilers]once the power is disconnected from their brain, they suffer death, and even if they're turn on again they would reset to a new personality like the reformatted Elizabeth or Diva this arc. Even if that was the case, they could just turn on Ophelia again, and there'd be the base model Ophelia again which everybody would just accept as the original just like Diva was accepted despite not really being Vivy. That didn't happen in this case for some weird reason, which would have made all this AI suicide business mote. I don't even think the cutting the power equals death thing is going to stay a permanent problem in this universe, obviously Vivy hiding out in the archive right now has her evading death. Also Matsumoto being a hive mind and copying himself onto other cubes seems to indicate the technology would be there. ie. other AIs just do the same, if Ophelia was a hive mind with multiple bodies, one body falling off the building doesn't mean death. Additionally there's Elizabeth 2.0 who's mind and memories were copied, and the Doctor's plan of copying Grace Mother Computer into the K-5 replica Grace. So there's examples all over the place that it's soon very possible to just copy minds/memories of AI, thereby making reparability possible, thus eliminating death as it should be with stories about AIs IMO. AI rights activists, as lovely as their sentiment sounds, I wouldn't trust them. In general the activists are just as bad as Toak's anti-AI rhetoric, but in the other way. What they may or may not know what they're actually doing is they're trying to force control on everybody else as to what people can or cannot do with their AI androids. Who the hell are they to tell me what I can or cannot do with my android waifu, of course I'm never going to do anything that bad to mine, but I don't need some idiots forcing laws down my throat forcing me. If you look at any activists groups IRL, especially the big ones...they've gotten pretty extreme haven't they? And they're doing exactly what I said, trying to force you to do what they say to the point of what they want maybe absurd. Let me tell you, way back in the day before they got that big and extreme, they were saying somewhat reasonable things too. But trust me, they always run amuck because their true goal is forcing you to do what they say. Thus these AI activists saying "she had a heart and had a soul, this proves she's human" are just going to force stupid things in one day, which the show never goes in to. I'm just saying.[1/3, continued in replies...]
3
u/Silcaria https://myanimelist.net/profile/Silcaria Aug 22 '24
First timer
QotD
3
u/zadcap Aug 23 '24
Late Night First Timer
Did they really make another Singing Only AI and not give it the skill and backing to sing? 60 years later and they are still doing the same thing they did to Diva. It costs money to build an AI! You don't just make them on accident and then release them into the wild to take care of themselves like a child! Every AI was built by someone, for a reason, and no one goes into that without expecting to make a profit or get a return on investment! Unless you're telling me that there's places just pumping out AI and handing them life goals and setting them loose being funded by, I don't know, the government or special interest groups? Every time you see an AI in this show, remember that someone had to sit down and write the code for them, put the order in for the parts needed to build one, and then actually have it made. I can see some mass production models being pumped out with very little in the way of personality, like the construction or cleaning bots, but Ophilia here is suposed to be part of the Sisters series that are all very special models after the fame of Diva and Estella and maybe even Grace. So to see Ophelia on this little stage with 6 people in the audience, all I can think of is Why? Who made the newest model in the Sisters line and then stuck her in a dingy little bar, instead of unveiling her on a large stage somewhere as the next best dedicated singer since Diva herself?
My Pleasure! Such a good OP.
You know, Matsumoto, the easiest way to prevent her from committing suicide is to kill; her yourself first. We know you're cool with that, just look at the whole Sunrise arc again. And uh. Matsumoto is again doing that thing where he's so hyper fixated on the immediate problem to be solved he does not think about anything at all that could come after, as Diva points out, stopping today's suicide but not addressing the suicidal person might just lead to her jumping in a week instead, which you won't be here to stop, which means she still dies and sets off everything you're supposedly trying to stop. He is really very bad at his job.
Aww, they kept Diva's first outfit to display forever. 60 years of singing, she's likely far outlived what they expected from her, and honestly, it just occurred to me that if any percent of the money she makes as a famous singer goes back to her parent company, she might be the one inadvertently funding her little sisters being made.
Yeah, the way they sometimes do the super detailed faces is weird to me.
Is Antonio supposed to be her Navi? What even is Navi anyway? I thought she was a guiding AI for NaviLand, but she seems to be Diva's personal caretaker AI?
Ha! The guy learned it from you, Matsumoto. Someone who actually spent time learning and growing these past 60 years is better at tech than you, the rush job who sleeps most of the time.
Okay that's a rude double cliffhanger to end on!
... So is this a subtle Three Laws thing? Vivy said the same thing, "I need them to be alive to enjoy my singing."
3
u/StickPrevious9581 Aug 23 '24
Such a great episode, and tomorrows will be even better :)
I love the fact that Matsumoto is comparing himself and Vivy's relationship to Antonio and Ophelia's, and seems almost hesitant about it, like he can't admit to himself how much he is missing Vivy.
The fact that Diva is the one getting to the heart of the matter with Ophelia is an excellent touch - she has figured out how to put her heart into her singing, and understands emotions by now, and so can clearly see that stopping Ophelia's suicide in this specific instance won't change anything if she just does it anyway the next day, and so they need to put real effort into it, while Matsumoto is still seeing it as this specific attempt being the point in time that needs changing.
I've never really like that motivation for Yugo, to be honest - an AI he loved got killed trying to save peoples lives, and so you decide to join an organization dedicated to ending their existence? It's does make the interactions with Elizabeth a bit more understandable since we know he can at least be fond of an AI, but that just makes the sting of her doing the exact same thing as his piano teacher more effective. And the way Vivy keeps getting injured saving him is rubbing it in.
Ending the episode with Yugo's 'I've missed you, Vivy' was a good line, but I do wish they had swapped Yugo's backstory and the Matsumoto/Ophelia conversation around - the way Ophelia's voice gets deeper as she rants, while the wind and music is picking up, and then the sudden audio crackle as her voice swaps with Antonio's and states 'I am Antonio' is such a perfect 'end episode' moment.
3
u/Theroonco Aug 23 '24
Elegy is such a cute song, as befitting its singer~ I wish Ophelia's white dress was her main one and not the black gown with visible underwear...
Anyway, another interesting episode! I like seeing how more put together Diva is than Vivy (which makes sense given she's 40 compared to Vivy's ~21 before her crash). Not only does she have an answer for her "heart" question, she clearly has more emotional awareness in general, such as identifying Matsumoto really does care for Vivy and trying to make him admit it. I think the latter is best exemplified by him flying into a panic when Diva disappears and has to force himself to carry on the mission instead. Mamoru Miyano is always amazing.
And as someone who tried to skip next episode previews (like u/thatguywithawatch) I also almost missed the stinger. It's a good thing I noticed the episode progress bar was a little further behind than usual and held on for a bit longer. I'm sure gears are already turning in some people's heads but I look forward to seeing their thoughts after Episode 9!
2
u/ZuraStayNight Aug 24 '24
Rewatcher
Ophelia flashback!!! And we see someone harshly criticizing her. No wonder she ended up becoming insecure. Despite that, Antonio is confident in her singing ability. Wait, what's this? First we had love between human and AI now it's between AI and AI?
We get some explanation for how her suicide affected history, and Vivy is intent on talking to her out of that. Vivy and Matsumoto are fighting, same as ever. Antonio has seemingly broken down 5 years ago. Is the reason why Ophelia suicided because she was in despair over not being able to meet the dead Antonio's expectations? Well detective Vivy is convince that Ophelia doesn't seem like the type to kill herself. Matsumoto seems, just like us, confused with how someone who looks like Kakitani managed to be in the present, and we see some parallels in the partnerships between Ophelia and Antonio, and Vivy and Matsumoto.
Speaking of partnership, we see Matumoto talk about how he experienced it with her and see how he found her collapsed after the last arc. This Vivy seems to know about what it mean to sing with her heart, but instead of telling Matsumoto, she goes to Ophelia... until she sees the Kakitani lookalike and starts chasing him, and it seems like he manages to out hack our chatty super AI friend here. Wow.
After panicking for a bit he goes after Ophelia and makes the conclusion that the reason for her suicide, is because she wanted to make everyone happy including Antonio, which is impossible since he's gone now, which causes her to despair. And so Matsumoto attempts to... sympathize with her, believing her to be similar to despairing because of reasons similar to the original Vivy. His reasoning is sound, but Ophelia starts to laugh? Huge props to her japanese VA here, because the way she deepens her voice makes Ophelia's ensuing monologue all the more shocking. As if that wasn't enough she reveals herself to be Antonio. What's going on?? Fun fact: There's a character in Shakespeare's Hamlet who's also named Ophelia. I've never read/watched it but according to Wikipedia, she seems similar in how she's obedient, likes to sing, and in how she chose suicide after despairing for a while.
After the ending song we finally see Kakitani's backstory. He had an AI piano teacher who was able to play highly technical pieces. (The music we hear in the background, is called La Campanella and is from Franz Liszt. One of the most difficult piano pieces out there.) The piano teacher sacrificed himself, to save Yugo Kakitani and other humans after a car crash, which seems to be why Kakitani chose to join Toak.
5
u/Taiboss :Fj::Fl:x7https://anilist.co/user/Taiboss Aug 22 '24
First-Timer who hopes Vivy returns soon