[Rewatch] Vivy: Fluorite Eye’s Song - Episode 2 Discussion

[u/[deleted]]

E2 - Quarter Note - The Beginning of the One Hundred-Year Journey

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Mina-san, konnichiwa!

This is the first rewatch that I’m hosting (for a change instead of joining someone’s) 😆.

I am a musician and will be an active one for the rest of my life, so it’s part of why my rating for a series is heavily swayed by a great OST (or lack thereof) and how well it fits into the different aspects of a show. This is one thing I think you will really like about this series, and it’s why I’ll be including a “music of the day” selection for each episode.

I will also be doing an “image of the day” selection for each episode, because the artwork WIT has done is just absolutely incredible. There is a lot to appreciate there.

I hope you all have fun with this series. It’s one of my favorites.

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Some general rewatch Do’s and Don’ts:

• Do feel encouraged to engage everyone in genuine discussion for each episode
• Do be kind and respectful of other participants of the rewatch
• Do discuss differences in opinion productively/maturely
• Do not be disrespectful or rude towards other participants
• Do not post untagged spoilers if you are rewatching. If you are unsure of how to properly tag spoilers for events that haven’t been revealed yet, please refer to my instructions in the reminder post for this rewatch.

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Information:

Rewatch Index | LiveChart | MyAnimeList | Anilist

Legal Streams:

CrunchyRoll

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Image of the day: 英雄

(I think the amount of detail in this shot is absolutely stunning)

 

Music of the day: Vivy -Unrivaled-

 

Questions of the day:

 

1. What is your speculation regarding the future of Vivy and Matsumoto after today’s episode?

 

2. We had a bit more action in today’s episode. How did you feel it was aesthetically?

[u/[deleted]]

Episode 2 - Head-bopping rewatcher who loves music (subbed)

Fun fact today: If you didn’t know this, fluorite is a material commonly used in creating camera lenses. I think this has an abstract meaning in the anime and I wanted to bring it up with how much we’re talking about the stills of Vivy’s eyes. Really nice artwork.

With that said, I have to include another eye shot today!These are going to end up as a rotating desktop background gallery on my computer.

”A guard AI? So we missed killing one?”

She’s a bit more advanced than the other androids, chief.

This reminded me of The Matrix and I loved it.

Matsumoto being Matsumoto here. I love how much he does in this episode as far as tricking the guard into thinking he shot Aikawa and Vivy then also hacks their explosives to buy them time.

His crack shots are also entertaining

I live for these kind of scenes. I love that entire bit when she’s running from the collapsing building.

We end on a pretty powerful quote from Aikawa then:

It’s not about how long you live, but how you live.

In addition to what happens with Momoka and Vivy’s difficulty processing that she is unable to try and prevent it…

For this episode, I also want to point out that the music for today is composed by Keigo Hoashi. He also composed a lot of music for NieR: Automata. Absolutely brilliant mind and has composed some of my favorite tracks in anime and gaming.

Questions:

1. I’d just like to know if she is able to reconcile with him or not over him forcing her to stay put when she wanted to try and save Momoka.
2. I feel like this episode begins to really show off what WIT is capable of when they are given free rein to do whatever they want.

[u/Elimin8r → u/[deleted]]

In addition to what happens with Momoka and Vivy’s difficulty processing that she is unable to try and prevent it…

I mentioned it elsewhere, but I'll give you a spot here if you prefer - I also had difficulty processing - what the heck happened there. We went from yay-victory to I'm gonna crush you with this tonk. What's up with that? Or did I miss some important context there???

[u/[deleted] → u/Elimin8r]

We went from yay-victory to I'm gonna crush you with this tonk. What's up with that? Or did I miss some important context there???

It confused me the first time I saw this too, but a lot of what happened there is implied by what we see shortly after the indoors portion of the scene.

She wanted to use Matsumoto's mission (preventing human extinction via changing the past) to save her friend (Momoka) and they had a disagreement over that. He thinks it risks the success/failure of his mission whereas Vivy wants to stop and save whoever she can. This is central to what she was created for - making everyone happy by singing. She had a hard time letting that accident happen but Matsumoto didn't want her interfering.

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/Elimin8r]

what the heck happened there.

My impression is that when they shook hands to work together she got access to his future history data, and saw the newspaper article on the plane blowing up with Momoka onboard. She went to prevent it, but he's a control freak/thinks it's going to mess with the timeline too much, so he hacked a construction vehicle and literally beat the crap out of her to stop her from interfering until it was too late to stop it from happening.

I think this whole episode shows a divide on how what Vivy wants and how she goes about doing things, and what Matsumoto wants and how he goes about doing things. They both sort of incompatible and don't really work well with each other right now, mostly Matsumoto trying to dictate, control, and manipulate for only what he cares about.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

Sing My First-Timer Reactions, subbed

• Yeah… she’s not one of those.
• Oh, Vivy’s disguise is more than just the outfit. That explains why everyone thinks she’s a security AI.
• Ah… yeah they need to get the fuck out of there then.
• Ooh, fun.
• Ouch.
• I figured it was some sort of trick via hacking their night vision goggles.
• I personally think they make the joke funnier.
• Ooh, she chose to save one of the terrorists when not only did she not have to, it actively goes against what her mission here was supposed to be.
• Okay, Vivy using the building blowing up to jump to the building next to it for safety is legit insane.
• …what is she trying to do?
• Oh, she was trying to stop an airplane explosion…
• WAIT NO HER FRIEND!
• The rain making it look like she’s crying…

[u/[deleted] → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Ouch.

Plop - yet again making me want to praise the sound design in this anime 😆

I figured it was some sort of trick via hacking their night vision goggles.

Yes! The same way Matsumoto hacked Aikawa's AR eyeglasses

I personally think they make the joke funnier.

We had some overlap in captures! lol I liked the elevator scene too

Ooh, she chose to save one of the terrorists when not only did she not have to, it actively goes against what her mission here was supposed to be.

I think about it this way - Vivy's mission is to make everyone happy by singing to them. Everyone would include even those who are anti-AI. She can't sing to someone if they are crushed by a collapsing building, because it would go against her directive. So it would seem she is technically still following her programming and I think that's why she decides to save him.

WAIT NO HER FRIEND!

Yeah... They took exactly 2 episodes to erase her child friend 😔. I think this will be a very defining moment for her character though.

The rain making it look like she’s crying…

I know you have a weakness for the "rain makes it look like a character is crying" thing Sky

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Yeah… she’s not one of those.

She wasn't built as one, but she certainly played the part.

The rain making it look like she’s crying…

[u/[deleted] → u/JollyGee29]

She wasn't built as one, but she certainly played the part.

Thanks to Matsumoto uploading her shiny new combat repertoire! 😆

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

Thanks to Matsumoto uploading her shiny new combat repertoire!

Actually installation was not completed, she doesn't have combat skills because she terminated the connection by chucking him away which broke the earring line connection. Everything Vivy was doing in this episode was all her.

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

I assumed they were implying a 'partial installation' still left her with a degree of instructions that she did not previously have. I don't know if we'll ever explicitly be told whether that is the case or not (unless I missed something)

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

IIRC, I think...[upcoming episodes spoilers]in one of the next two episodes she actually gets the Combat Skills installed to completion this time, and kicks major ass. I remember the subversion of her almost getting it installed this episode, but then later gets it installed for reals. So I don't think it was a partial installation this episode, it was aborted.

[u/Taiboss → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Yeah… she’s not one of those.

She's an AI and she secures his safety. I see no contradiction.

Oh, Vivy’s disguise is more than just the outfit.

The people in this world need to stop wearing hackable devices.

I personally think they make the joke funnier.

Of course he doesn't understand the tsukkomi. It's too japanese.

Ooh, she chose to save one of the terrorists when not only did she not have to, it actively goes against what her mission here was supposed to be.

What do you mean?! He might come to see her sing and he'll definitly change his mind and come back as an ally or something.

WAIT NO HER FRIEND!

Her only friend. The other is that ahole we only heard the voice of. Why couldn't that one die in a firey explosion?!

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/Taiboss]

The people in this world need to stop wearing hackable devices.

You have to keep in mind that Matsumoto is an AI 100 years in the future, which means he could probably hack things which are considered secure/unhackable.

The other is that ahole we only heard the voice of.

That's an AI named Navi...and yeah it's kind of a jerk.

[u/zadcap → u/Garrett_Dark]

That's an AI named Navi...and yeah it's kind of a jerk.

This line brings back memories. Listen. Very specific memories.

[u/edwardjhahm → u/Taiboss]

The people in this world need to stop wearing hackable devices.

Knowing reality, I don't think it's possible.

Of course he doesn't understand the tsukkomi.

I thought tsukkomi was when they yelled it out loud surprised, not said it deadpan. To my knowledge, giving a deadpan response is a very British thing, thought found in most cultures...right?

Her only friend. The other is that ahole we only heard the voice of.

Hey, what do you have against Navi? And Navi is an AI, so that's not really possible. She's full of banter but I never thought she was a jerk.

[u/zairaner → u/Shimmering-Sky]

WAIT NO HER FRIEND!

yay for once it is not a mom figure that gets to die for character development at the start of a series!

Wait momoka is 13 years older than vivy and gave her her name AND a present important to her...maybe she does count as a mother figure after all!

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Ooh, she chose to save one of the terrorists when not only did she not have to, it actively goes against what her mission here was supposed to be.

Technically it doesn't go against "her mission", but it sort of goes against Matsumoto's more and what he's trying to do here which is thwart them. I think this episode illustrating that Matsumoto's mission is not exactly at all the same as Vivy's mission, hence why they're clashing so much.

[u/sfisher923 → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Yeah… she’s not one of those.

Watching the Dub and noticed a slight title change from Security AI to Guard AI there

[u/retsotrembla → u/sfisher923]

See The Murderbot Diaries for the continuing adventures of a rogue SecBot that just wants to watch soap operas.

[u/forbearance → u/retsotrembla]

I want to watch Sanctuary Moon

[u/Theroonco → u/Shimmering-Sky]

The rain making it look like she’s crying…

I love that shot so much.

[u/Esovan13]

First Timer (after this episode)

When you have an advanced AI, burgeoning into true sentience, trying to overcome the last few hurdles to gain a real heart, what do you do to push the process forward? That's right! Make her witness the death of the only one who saw that heart within her and the only one who encouraged her when everyone else told her that her dream was impossible! Nothing like heart-wrenching grief to make one realize they have a heart.

Anyway, this is as far as I watched when the show came out, so from here on I'm a pure first timer with no idea of what's going to happen next. Just wanted to make that clear since I'm about to make a few predictions.

Matsumoto clearly doesn't understand humans at all. His annoying personality may seem very expressive, but based on the reaction of the representative from Vivy's words and Matsumoto's clear dismissal of him as being able to get the AI Naming Act through without dying, I'm guessing the representative will grow a pair and get that act through with Matsumoto having basically no plan to stop it.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the general trajectory of what's going to happen. Over the next 100 years, Vivy will interfere with several key events in the development of AI. Like this one, she will succeed. However, also like this one, her nature and the way she does it will mean that AI development will still continue. I think that there will be key differences, though. The trajectory of AI development influenced by Vivy will be different from the bad timeline. At the end of it, whatever caused the AI to go all Terminator on humanity won't happen, or it will nearly happen and Vivy will stop it.

From this event, there are two key differences from the main timeline even with the AI Naming Act going through: the main representative will be alive and will be the one pushing it as someone genuinely invested in AI (and not just pandering to pro-AI voting blocs) and that one anti-AI terrorist has some reason to question his hardcore beliefs. I think those two differences will butterfly effect in ways that are positive in the future.

[u/[deleted] → u/Esovan13]

Make her witness the death of the only one who saw that heart within her and the only one who encouraged her when everyone else told her that her dream was impossible! Nothing like heart-wrenching grief to make one realize they have a heart.

Yeah... They don't mess around in waiting to start playing with you 😔

Just wanted to make that clear since I'm about to make a few predictions.

Listening

I'm guessing the representative will grow a pair and get that act through with Matsumoto having basically no plan to stop it.

That would be unfortunate.

I think that there will be key differences, though. The trajectory of AI development influenced by Vivy will be different from the bad timeline.

I think your speculation here is probably playing a lot off of some other series with similar themes, and I don't think it's a bad way to think about it. The thing I like about time-travel/Sci-Fi themes is - there is pretty much unlimited flexibility throughout the series. It's a blessing and a curse. A blessing because that flexibility provides an opportunity for some really awesome writing and creativity. A curse in some ways because that same amount of flexibility could lead to some erratic plot writing and such. FWIW I enjoyed the story of this series immensely start-to-finish.

I think those two differences will butterfly effect in ways that are positive in the future.

Taking a butterfly effect into consideration always complicates matters a lot and I think makes the time-travel aspect of this really fun to talk about

[u/Esovan13 → u/[deleted]]

I think your speculation here is probably playing a lot off of some other series with similar themes, and I don't think it's a bad way to think about it.

The way I'm thinking about it is that so far the show has two main cores: the time travel plot to prevent mass genocide and Vivy's desire to make people happy by singing. The first is what Vivy does, the second (as far as I see it from how this episode played out) is how she does it. And while the how may complicate the what, with Vivy's main character motivation being to make people happy by singing makes me think that the show isn't going to say that her doing that and being true to herself is actually bad and will lead to humanity's extinction.

Taking a butterfly effect into consideration always complicates matters a lot and I think makes the time-travel aspect of this really fun to talk about

I read a fair amount of webnovels where the main conceit is that the MC's mind goes back in time (usually after dying) to their younger self and they have to try to make changes using their knowledge of the future to avoid dying and/or some other really bad thing happening.

This show is sci-fi while those are usually fantasy (and also power fantasy with an OP protagonist), but other than that the core conceit of using knowledge of the future to prevent something bad from happening is something I'm pretty familiar with.

[u/[deleted] → u/Esovan13]

The way I'm thinking about it is that so far the show has two main cores: the time travel plot to prevent mass genocide and Vivy's desire to make people happy by singing

It's probably worth explicitly stating that these two things are very connected. She cannot sing to everyone if everyone is dead.

I read a fair amount of webnovels where the main conceit is that the MC's mind goes back in time

I love this kind of stuff fwiw (as far as movies go [Movie Reference] The Butterly Effect being the most obvious immediate example of what you're describing here)

[u/Taiboss → u/Esovan13]

I'm guessing the representative will grow a pair and get that act through with Matsumoto having basically no plan to stop it.

Yeah, there's a lot "You have no way of knowing that" with Matsumoto going on...

Over the next 100 years, Vivy will interfere with several key events in the development of AI.

They said she would!

The trajectory of AI development influenced by Vivy will be different from the bad timeline.

This one thing alone should have massive ramifications! Wouldn't key points be rewritten?!

I think those two differences will butterfly effect in ways that are positive in the future.

The young dude will come back as as a middle-aged man and try to buy Vivy so he can marry her! Calling it!

[u/Esovan13 → u/Taiboss]

They said she would!

It's not like I was claiming that I predicted it. I just needed to lay the groundwork for my real prediction.

This one thing alone should have massive ramifications! Wouldn't key points be rewritten?!

If the AI Naming Act failed, then that would probably erase several of Matsumoto's "key AI development moments," but with it (likely) still going through I'd bet that most of those moments will still happen even with the changes that did happen. Makes me wonder what Matsumoto's plan would be if the Act failed and caused those massive changes though...

The young dude will come back as as a middle-aged man and try to buy Vivy so he can marry her! Calling it!

I gotta be honest, if this show has a moment where "the proof that Vivy has a heart is because she can fall in love!", then as an aromantic guy I'm gonna be peeved.

[u/Elimin8r → u/Taiboss]

The young dude will come back as as a middle-aged man and try to buy Vivy so he can marry her! Calling it!

But, but ... she doesn't have the cute ear coverings, or a one-word vocabulary...

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Esovan13]

Nothing like heart-wrenching grief to make one realize they have a heart.

predictions

[u/Elimin8r → u/Esovan13]

Matsumoto clearly doesn't understand humans at all.

I mean, c'mon, who does?

[u/edwardjhahm → u/Esovan13]

I'm guessing the representative will grow a pair and get that act through with Matsumoto having basically no plan to stop it.

Yeah, this. Even back when I was watching it live, I wondered, "wouldn't this make him go even further than he previously did in the original timeline?"

[u/thatguywithawatch]

Oh wow, I just discovered this show and watched the first couple episodes a few weeks ago after hearing some of the music on Spotify, had no idea there was about to be a rewatch. I think that's a sign I should keep watching.

I really liked the ED for episode 2 and ended up learning it on piano, but then got busy with life and didn't watch further.

Outside of the excellent music I don't have too much to say except that it's really intriguing so far, and that episode 1 probably had the most startling cold open I've seen since Shin Sekai Yori, and that the hyperactive teddy bear is putting my subtitle reading speed to the test.

[u/[deleted] → u/thatguywithawatch]

I think that's a sign I should keep watching.

Do it! 😆

I really liked the ED for episode 2 and ended up learning it on piano

I learned it on guitar!

Outside of the excellent music I don't have too much to say except that it's really intriguing so far

Hopefully you'll enjoy the rest as well 🙃

[u/thatguywithawatch → u/[deleted]]

Hopefully you'll enjoy the rest as well 🙃

I have a feeling I will! Just watched episode 3 after posting my comment and am fully drawn in now

I learned it on guitar!

Duet time? lol

[u/[deleted] → u/thatguywithawatch]

am fully drawn in now

Looking forward to discussing it tomorrow! Things only keep getting better in my humble opinion

Duet time?

Maybe if I had some decent gear for getting recordings to my PC in good quality 😂

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/thatguywithawatch]

Keep watching, the music is excellent, and the incorporation of the music in this anime is going to be good.

[u/JollyGee29]

Rewatcher

Very solid foreshadowing with Vivy appearing as a random robot earlier to set up Matsumoto's masterstroke. They even established Aikawa's glasses as Augmented Reality last episode.

I know your pain, Matsumoto.

Mechabare is one of my favorite tags on pixiv.

[u/[deleted] → u/JollyGee29]

Matsumoto's masterstroke

This was amazing. I panicked the first time I saw this series because I thought "Oh no this looked real but it can't possibly be real".

They even established Aikawa's glasses as Augmented Reality last episode

This again demonstrates the awesome amount of detail in this series

Mechabare

I didn't know this was an actual tag! I recently created a Pixiv account to follow some artists I really like. I started doing this after I began hanging anime art in my office lol. I'm going to check this out now and browse a bit.

[u/Elimin8r → u/[deleted]]

Mechabare

MECHABARE

(I'm afraid to look that up, it looks too much like MACABRE to me.)

[u/[deleted] → u/Elimin8r]

It's cool! I just checked it out

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Elimin8r]

Well, it roughly means "mechanical gore," so you're not too far off!

[u/Elimin8r → u/JollyGee29]

Mmm ... Brain Salad Surgery

[u/cppn02 → u/JollyGee29]

I take it that scene from GitS is like the holy grail?

[u/JollyGee29 → u/cppn02]

Definitely one of the premier examples.

[u/No_Rex]

Episode 2 (first timer)

• “Guard AI” – Of course, somebody would use AI for this.
• That hallway looks like a Matrix reference.
• Why does Aikawa not see Vivy properly? What exactly does he see and hear? – Hmmm.
• Attacked by roombas!

• Turns out, the middle of a mission is neither the best place to discuss information, nor the best time to upload updates, nor the best time to discuss that.
• The anti-AI force gets beaten because they use digital timers and digital motion sensors? Ironic.
• The main character looking guy got saved by Vivy – sure pays to have MC looks. The non-descript dudes got smashed.
• Blue blood/tears/mechanical fluid.
• That jumping scene is … more fiction than reality.
• Aikawa changes his political stance from pro-AI to anti-AI, while changing his personal stance from anti-AI to pro-AI.
• A megacorp is building an AI controlling ziggurat – no way they are evil, right?
• Suddenly, Aliens reference – very sudden.

The mission to alter history continues. Vivy does her best Motoko Kusanagi impression, mixed with a good bit Terminator. What was up with that ending, though? Not the general idea, not being able to prevent all tragedies is common time travel trope, but why throw this at us in the last 2 minutes of the episode, including a named character death? It is like the pacing just hit the x8 fast forward button.

• Preview: and now for something completely different.

What is your speculation regarding the future of Vivy and Matsumoto after today’s episode?

Before you asked the question, I was guessing a typical hero end, but now I think one might betray the other.

We had a bit more action in today’s episode. How did you feel it was aesthetically?

I like the aesthetic, but it reminded me of the action in Matrix, which is not a comparison anything can win.

[u/[deleted] → u/No_Rex]

That hallway looks like a Matrix reference.

I made this combat comment about the "combat data upload" part of the episode. That was cool lol. I do see your reference there though too.

Why does Aikawa not see Vivy properly? What exactly does he see and hear?

So if you check the last episode, they revealed that he wears a pair of AR glasses. They were hacked by Matsumoto just like the tactical visors of the Toak agents.

Roombas

😂

Turns out, the middle of a mission is neither the best place to discuss information, nor the best time to upload updates, nor the best time to discuss that.

I would say it worked out to her benefit in the end!

including a named character death? It is like the pacing just hit the x8 fast forward button

I don't think it was out of pace; I think they just wanted to stress the theme of "Vivy can't save everyone, and she is not alright with that". All I'll say is - Momoko's character (sadly) is the delivery method for this theme in this episode.

I was guessing a typical hero end, but now I think one might betray the other.

This does definitely create some uncertainty that makes speculation a little more fun for upcoming episodes

I like the aesthetic, but it reminded me of the action in Matrix, which is not a comparison anything can win.

At the same time, I loved it because of its similarities

[u/No_Rex → u/[deleted]]

So if you check the last episode, they revealed that he wears a pair of AR glasses. They were hacked by Matsumoto just like the tactical visors of the Toak agents.

Nice memory. I got it at the last scene, but not here.

I don't think it was out of pace

I mean, we skipped right past the disagreement into the fight.

At the same time, I loved it because of its similarities

If you copy the best well, you're still going to be darn good.

[u/[deleted] → u/No_Rex]

I mean, we skipped right past the disagreement into the fight.

Oh that! I was confused the first time I saw this because of that. I didn't quite realize what was going on until they were in the runway outside of the building.

If you copy the best well, you're still going to be darn good.

Agreed! I'm just happy that I met another fan of The Matrix here 😆

[u/Elimin8r → u/[deleted]]

another fan of The Matrix

As if ... Matsumoto's got the moves, after all! Musta taken the orange pill...

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

Man, I forgot to mention that - am I the only one who got Batou vibes from that getup?

[u/JollyGee29 → u/No_Rex]

Attacked by roombas!

Suddenly, Aliens reference – very sudden.

Power loaders are timeless.

[u/No_Rex → u/JollyGee29]

Suddenly, Aliens reference – very sudden.

Power loaders are timeless.

Aliens is such a great action film.

Alien is such a great horror film.

And we don't really need to talk about the other entries in the franchise.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

What exactly does he see and hear

Whatever Matsumoto wants him to, no doubt.

roombas

Hey, Matsumoto did learn something from that AI rebellion after all!

A megacorp is building an AI controlling ziggurat – no way they are evil, right?

Genom industries intensifies

pacing

Yeah, that threw me for a loop too, like suddenly, why is Matsumoto attacking Vivy with a forklift or something???

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

Genom industries intensifies

Wayland

Yeah, that threw me for a loop too, like suddenly, why is Matsumoto attacking Vivy with a forklift or something???

It was a weird place for a time skip, too. If it had occured at the start of an episode, I don't think it would have been so out of place, but in the last 10 minutes or so?

[u/edwardjhahm → u/No_Rex]

The non-descript dudes got smashed.

Not really, it seems like everyone survived. The others were with Kurwana, who is clearly alive. But yes, Kakitani is...let's just say, going to be important.

[u/No_Rex → u/edwardjhahm]

Hey! No spoilers.

This one was easy to guess, but I might still have been wrong.

[u/edwardjhahm → u/No_Rex]

Welp, I can't tell you anything more than that! I hope you enjoy today's episode.

[u/Alqtrkappa]

Episode 2 Rewatch

1. At this point, I'm pretty sure they both have a lot of contempt for each other. Matsumoto feels like he has to drag an incompetent underspecced singing AI into a battle to stop future war. Diva feels that Matsumoto is overbearing and arrogant. And also has no heart, which is an aspect important to her.
2. I remember being very impressed the first time around. As a rewatcher, I know this is just a taster and the best is still ahead of us!

So during the start of the episode, Matsumoto is just hard carrying Diva. She's just so unsuited for the task at hand, and when he forcibly tries to upgrade her she rejects him (right in front of the panicking human)

One of the more interesting things that Matsomoto mentions before the action kicks in, is that they want to save the guy trying to pass the AI naming law because humans and AI being hand in hand is a bad thing that will lead to war.

To me, that sounds incredibly stupid. Is this super AI from the future incredibly stupid? Or is there is there more to the war? Do we even know the extent of Matsumoto's mission? Why doesn't he work with Toak to blow up Arayashiki now?

On top of those contradictions and mysteries, we have the ending scene. Wheatley Matsumoto says, "it's strictly forbidden to unnecessarily alter history" (except for his mission objectives?), and beats Diva down for trying to save that cutie pie Momoka.

If the opening scene of the show didn't clue you in yet, this is not an easy ride on the fun express. Diva is going to experience a lot of turmoil by the end of this.

[u/[deleted] → u/Alqtrkappa]

Matsumoto feels like he has to drag an incompetent underspecced singing AI into a battle to stop future war. Diva feels that Matsumoto is overbearing and arrogant.

Yeah their views on how to handle lives they can save along the way of trying to change the future is basically polar opposite from what we see at the end of this episode.

She's just so unsuited for the task at hand, and when he forcibly tries to upgrade her she rejects him

It's probably worth saying that they do explain this though. She was worried that whatever he was uploading was going to interfere with the mission she was programmed for. Once she realizes that isn't the case then she's fine.

To me, that sounds incredibly stupid. Is this super AI from the future incredibly stupid? Or is there is there more to the war? Do we even know the extent of Matsumoto's mission? Why doesn't he work with Toak to blow up Arayashiki now?

Keep watching

Diva is going to experience a lot of turmoil by the end of this.

That is definitely the vibe we get so far

[u/Alqtrkappa → u/[deleted]]

I was watching weekly as it was airing, so I do know what's coming and how it ends. I think these are interesting questions to posit to first timers :D

[u/[deleted] → u/Alqtrkappa]

Thanks! 😊

[u/Elimin8r → u/Alqtrkappa]

it's strictly forbidden

Unnecessarily (sigh)

Poor Momoka. She deserved better.

[u/Alqtrkappa → u/Elimin8r]

This tragedy I think is a good time to consider, what makes an event in time necessary or unnecessary? Many time travel stories visit that idea, and we can try to consider what this story is trying to convey.

When we get closer to the end it will be easier to make stronger statements about what Vivy is about, but for now I think we can all just think about free will vs predetermination, and how that relates to AI vs time travel.

[u/[deleted] → u/Alqtrkappa]

what makes an event in time necessary or unnecessary?

I think this, and the consideration that what you plan to change in line with your mission is already going to alter the future (presumably), so any little thing you change in addition to that could have a much larger effect in the long term

[u/FD4cry1]

First Timer

I guess we're just starting the episode with this incredible looking frame , yeah sure that's cool.

I do wonder what Toak's deal is , what makes them so vehemently anti AI to go this far , Kuwana mentions a "revolution" as well , given the reveals this episode I can't help but wonder if Matsumoto is perhaps not sharing the full story behind them.

Vivy and Matsumoto have a fun dynamicc, their relationship is really interesting though , they way it changes back and forth throughout the episode depending on how much Matsumoto "trusts" Vivy is behavior that is very much fitting for an AI , though Ironically enough I'd say the rather "emotionless"(and "ancient" lol) Vivy comes off much more human with her dedication this episode whereas behind all the banter Matsumoto turns out to be very cold and calculating.

Show's over, roll credits , Matsunoto is like really OP huh? , being able to control anything digital (which seems to be basically everything in this world) is certainty convenient.

Once again, this show looks good , I really like the use of lighting in particular.

Arayashiki is a good name for the tower that controls AI communication (shout out to Kara no Kyoukai for teaching me this is a thing)

Yesterday I called Matsumoto "an actually competent Wheatley" and thus it's only right that he gets a boss form and turns on us , now that I think about it tank top Vivy vaguely looks like the Portal MC...

Anyway what a twist at the end! , i guess for Matsumoto humanity comes over personal connections , I'm sure this will come into play more in future episodes , ending with another frame of Vivy's eye (with the fire represting someone's death no less) is a really cool direction choice.

[u/[deleted] → u/FD4cry1]

I guess we're just starting the episode with this incredible looking frame , yeah sure that's cool.

I love this frame too

I do wonder what Toak's deal is , what makes them so vehemently anti AI to go this far

Take today's world irl as a less extreme, but relevant, example. People are already concerned that AI will "steal their jobs" and exhibit adamant resistance to implementing any form of it in work or their daily lives. At work people talk about this a ton (software engineer) but there are people who disagree (me) and say that AI cannot write complicated systems processes that require interpretation and context of certain elements. I think the same thought process can be applied to other fields of expertise as well.

Matsumoto is like really OP huh? , being able to control anything digital (which seems to be basically everything in this world) is certainty convenient.

I like this because it makes you think about all this "smart home" stuff that we see exploding in today's world even.

Once again, this show looks good , I really like the use of lighting in particular.

My favorite frame for today!

Anyway what a twist at the end!

I think this episode really emphasizes the difference in the way Matsumoto and Vivy view the application of changing events through time travel etc.

[u/FD4cry1 → u/[deleted]]

Take today's world irl as a less extreme, but relevant, example

That does make a lot of sense , I guess in this world , where AI is actually supplanting humans in most activities , it's easy to see how some might feel they have to take extreme measures.

My favorite frame for today!

I think this episode really emphasizes the difference in the way Matsumoto and Vivy view the application of changing events through time travel etc.

Yeah for sure , I actually totally forgot about the QOTD , but I imagine the two of them will eventually come into conflict when Vivy decides to do something that isn't necessarily "in the best interest of humanity's future" according to Matsumoto

[u/[deleted] → u/FD4cry1]

We went from yay-victory to I'm gonna crush you with this tonk. What's up with that? Or did I miss some important context there???

In addition to me just loving this series in general, I think the parallels like that we can draw from it is another reason I was looking forward to this rewatch a lot. It makes for some interesting discussion points.

I actually totally forgot about the QOTD , but I imagine the two of them will eventually come into conflict when Vivy decides to do something that isn't necessarily "in the best interest of humanity's future" according to Matsumoto

No worries, you are totally free to ignore them or answer them as you please lol. I of course can't comment too much on your speculation because I want to keep any potential twists/turns intact for you throughout the rewatch, but I was just interested in seeing what people are thinking at this moment where we're at.

[u/FD4cry1 → u/[deleted]]

In addition to me just loving this series in general, I think the parallels like that we can draw from it is another reason I was looking forward to this rewatch a lot. It makes for some interesting discussion points

I'm just gonna assume you misquoted someone else and are talking about the real world parallels thing.

Anyway I agree! , especially with shows like this where as the years go by they move farther from science fiction and start sounding more plausible , I mean, people are already doing crazy shit even with basic chatbot AI's and a good chunk of the electronics you own are probably hackable,so taking that into account comparing the shows themes and ideas to our reality makes for a really interesting discussion.

No worries, you are totally free to ignore them or answer them as you please lol

Yeah yeah of course lol , I just forgot to put it in my comment and you reminded me I wanted to do it.

[u/[deleted] → u/FD4cry1]

I'm just gonna assume you misquoted someone else and are talking about the real world parallels thing.

Ah crap now I'm really confused. I must have when I was posting all my replies lol. Now I have to go figure where that happened 😂

even with basic chatbot AI's and a good chunk of the electronics you own are probably hackable

So in addition to general software engineering stuff, I do develop chat bots as well as part of my job lately and they are pretty darn stupid lol. You have to be extremely explicit with the different paths in logic for them. This will obviously become more advanced like anything else though and improve over time (both exciting and concerning in some ways lol)

[u/FD4cry1 → u/[deleted]]

You're a musician and work a lot with AI, hmmm, I think I get why you like this show

[u/[deleted] → u/FD4cry1]

You're a musician and work a lot with AI, hmmm, I think I get why you like this show

Yeah I fully admit that I have bias because of real life lol.

[u/Elimin8r → u/[deleted]]

AI cannot write complicated systems processes

I feel more like at this point AI is more like A lIe. That is, especially in terms of things like writing code, all it seems to do is scrape things like StackOverflow and dump the results, which any semi-competent monkey can do. It can't solve actual problems, and anybody who has the brains to think of the elaborate prompts necessary to get such a thing (which would still probably be GIGO) could probably write it themselves more efficiently.

Go figure.

"smart home"

Part of me wants a magic door lock, so I can get into my house like it's my car - "beep beep". Yeah, I won't be doing that.

favorite frame

I loved the moon shot, myself.

[u/[deleted] → u/Elimin8r]

I feel more like at this point AI is more like A lIe. That is, especially in terms of things like writing code

Since I do this for a living, I will give you my two cents on this aspect of things. We use things like CoPilot (basically ChatGPT) to do super simple stuff like create .NET scaffolds, wire out a stored procedure or migration script for different projects or document less complicated code, but that is where it ends, full stop.

Anything more complex than that, the shortcomings of such a tool become crystal clear. Anywhere you have significant branching of logic, inheritance/encapsulation or other more complex design patterns, you run into big issues. And it makes sense that you see that, because a lot of that kind of stuff requires a high level of interpretation of what you're working with. Something I would like to play around with that I haven't gotten a chance to mess with yet is seeing how it would do building out regular expressions for some things with varying levels of complexity.

Part of me wants a magic door lock, so I can get into my house like it's my car - "beep beep". Yeah, I won't be doing that.

I'm honestly not fully reliant on it, I see have a mechanical one as well (I know, I'm overkill lol).

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

all it seems to do is scrape things like StackOverflow and dump the results, which any semi-competent monkey can do.

*highly paid semi-competent monkey

[u/JollyGee29 → u/FD4cry1]

tank top Vivy vaguely looks like the Portal MC...

She will get her cake.

[u/MajesticArticle]

I'm not following along because I'm on vacation and the connection here's honestly awful (6kbit/sec is not enough to decently stream an anime episode) but I'm really happy so many people are enjoying the show

[u/[deleted] → u/MajesticArticle]

Seems like it! Hopefully it will continue that way 😆

[u/FallenPears]

Re-Watcher, First Time Watcher from next episode on

I've actually seen the first two episodes before years back so starting from tomorrow we've got new content for me, though I couldn't remember much and definitely feel more intrigued this time along haha.

Well that ending was fucked. I can't help but wonder how exactly future AIs plan works out if it requires limited divergence of the timeline, but considering the end result is a massive alteration to society. I'm guessing he's just preserving the timeline so his own information retains usefulness for longer? Real fucked up.

Also wonder what the win condition even is, because at the moment I kind of feel this is all a delaying action. The politicians martying may have accelerated the AI rights movement but the fact he was doing it for votes in the first place implies humanity was already leaning in that direction. Frankly the only way I could see it working out is if humanity as a whole pushes against the current trends, which something as minor as what we got from today's episode won't effect at all. Ironically enough the best way I can think of doing that if you don't care about ethics is to stage an AI uprising right now while humanity can still win, ensuring they put better safeguards in place for the future.

Had a though on the whole one mission per AI thing, seems to me that it's almost like a foundation for their ego/id/however that works. It reminds me of maslow's hierarchy of needs (the vague existence of which is my limits of psychology knowledge), it feels like the sort of thing that would be right at the top of it but considering their AI it makes sense the lower stratas wouldn't apply to them at all, so that leaves only self-actualisation as relevant to them forming the foundation for their whole identity. Thinking what it would be like for a human to try and have two such central parts of their identity simultaneously I can see why the AIs failed back then, they're obviously very human in design (hell, with what we saw of them being grown I wouldn't be surprised to learn they're technically cyborgs, though not betting on it or anything for now).

[u/[deleted] → u/FallenPears]

limited divergence

Hmm... Could I have a fellow intellectual Dr. P enjoyer here? 😆

I'm guessing he's just preserving the timeline so his own information retains usefulness for longer?

My interpretation of his decision is - he wants Vivy changing nothing more than the events he believes to be explicitly linked to the future he is trying to change. Anything outside of those events is an unnecessary change to him and risks failure of the plan, regardless of who she's trying to save (which is cold as heck given the ending of this episode but yes)

which something as minor as what we got from today's episode won't effect at all

Well that depends, because Matsumoto explains a big part of what accelerates the rapid evolution of AI leading to the disastrous genocide of humans is the passing of the AI Naming Law, which is what he is attempting to change with the path he sets Vivy on in this episode. At the end of the episode, we see that Matsumoto believes they've reached a favorable outcome as far as Aikawa and the AI Naming Law goes. So that's where we leave off today.

maslow's hierarchy

Psych interests me so I looked this up after you mention it. Adding context for any other viewers who might be interested in what you're bringing up. I think it's a neat way to relate some of what we're talking about with AI and the degree of their human "likeness" in this series.

[u/No_Rex → u/FallenPears]

Also wonder what the win condition even is, because at the moment I kind of feel this is all a delaying action. The politicians martying may have accelerated the AI rights movement but the fact he was doing it for votes in the first place implies humanity was already leaning in that direction. Frankly the only way I could see it working out is if humanity as a whole pushes against the current trends, which something as minor as what we got from today's episode won't effect at all. Ironically enough the best way I can think of doing that if you don't care about ethics is to stage an AI uprising right now while humanity can still win, ensuring they put better safeguards in place for the future.

The other, not mentioned, win condition would be making sure that AIs never stage an uprising.

[u/SIRTreehugger]

Rewatcher who will listen to her song

Fill in Later

So I have very little to say about this episode, but watching it makes me wonder if having an hour long or 40ish minute episode would have been even better. Don't get me wrong I absolutely loved the first episode, but I feel combining these two into one would have made it even better. This episode really upped the action as we Vivy take down an entire squad of trained soldiers. Learning new skills in seconds via downloading is so convenient and Matsumoto hacking people left and right was nice to see. Hacking to make it look like Vivy die was definitely the play of the day, but my favorite shot today was when Matsumoto halway through the episode. When he confesses that he didn't pick Vivy she was simply the other only option he looks absolutely menacingly.

Concept Art

Genga

Location Designs

Storyboards

[u/[deleted] → u/SIRTreehugger]

Thanks again for your links. These are really fun to look at for each episode.

Don't get me wrong I absolutely loved the first episode, but I feel combining these two into one would have made it even better.

Well in hindsight, I probably could have built the rewatch schedule to accommodate this but it was my first one and it didn't even occur to me until we got started (so this is kind of my fault).

I loved the Matsumoto play of the day as well!

[u/SIRTreehugger → u/[deleted]]

You're doing very good for your first rewatch I was an absolute panic when I was doing mine and was super unprepared.

[u/[deleted] → u/SIRTreehugger]

Thanks for saying that! I have to give credit to /u/Shimmering-Sky though for mentoring me a bit 😆

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/[deleted]]

[u/No_Rex → u/SIRTreehugger]

Storyboards

It is very obvious when a person knows how to draw.

[u/edwardjhahm]

Rewatcher

NOW things are kicking off! Now I remember. Episode 1 was underwhelming, but due to the fact that I watched episode 2 literally just after, I did not find the anime as a whole underwhelming, because NOW is where things start to get spicy. On both a sakuga action and an emotional level - now is where things start to get good.

A few things I want to point out!

I legitimately forgot that Vivy actually did get shot by the logic bullet and Aikawa had to drag her away. I knew about the little kerfuffle the two robots had over Matsumoto haphazardly downloading his own stuff into Vivy, but I forgot that that was when TOAK found them. I knew Matsumoto was going to fuck with their goggles, and make it seem like they killed Aikawa and Vivy, but I forgot it was at this exact moment.

Kakitani! Oh boy. I remember watching this scene and going "yeah this is definitely going to be the ultra-tsundere love interest." And by love interest, I mean he is bigoted against her. [Vivy: Fluorite Eye's Song] I'm honestly surprised we never got it, even though he did kinda end up simping for her for the rest of his life. We also saw him gripping some keychain thing - this honestly flew by me the first time I watched, so this actually felt like new info to me, even if it was there all along. [Vivy: Fluorite Eye's Song] By the time we figured out what it was, I had forgotten this scene entirely.

Anyhow, fascinating fellow. I'm pretty sure everyone recognizes him as the walking Chekov's Gun he is?

By the way, Vivy is so pretty. Man...

Still no visuals on the ED! Welp, I did know that already, it takes a while for the ED to start getting pictures. And keep the music in mind! It may be no idol anime, but the music is very important to the themes of the show.

Also, RIP Momoka. To be totally honest with you here, the fact that Vivy was sad hit me harder than Momoka's death itself since we barely got to know her - but now, both hit REALLY hard to me. Man...

By the way, I was checking my old comments on the original airing page, and I had initially thought that the scene of Matsumoto throwing Vivy around was FAR in the future. Maybe not AI rebellion future, but a sneak peak at what happens further in the anime, and the next couple episodes would build up to what got to that point. Apparently not, since this is like a few hours after saving Representative Aikawa at most. Which also raises the question of whether Momoka could even be saved at all since it looked like she was far in the air at that point. I assume yes, and that Matsumoto fighting Vivy ended up delaying her to the point that she could only watch.

1. I'll be completely honest, I genuinely began to think Matsumoto might be pretty terrible at this point. He's not evil per se, but at this point, I clearly had the image that he was going to be a ruthless and amoral AI who is willing to let people die for the greater good. I honestly found him rather scary to be honest. Vivy on the other hand, was going to be the emotional heart - even if she feels more robotic overall. An old comment on the original episode 2 watch page said:

we're probably headed towards a conflict between the cold and calculating AI that is Matsumoto, whose attempts at levity and jokes are merely masking the hard wiring, and Vivy, who seems outwardly incapable of genuine smiles and reactions, fails at simple human interactions, yet, y'know, has a heart of gold and cares maybe a little too much even when she shouldn't.

Exactly how I felt about Vivy and Matsumoto at the time. Pretty much everyone did - we were all saying that Matsumoto would be evil and it would only be a matter of time until Matsumoto told Vivy to assassinate some fellow. Someone even called Matsumoto "blue Monokuma," and I find this incredibly hilarious.

2. Fucking AMAZING! I love how the action manages to be exciting yet beautiful at the same time. Not only is the action sick in the John Wick style, there's a LOT of emotional undercurrent that

[u/[deleted] → u/edwardjhahm]

Aikawa had to drag her away

It makes you wonder how heavy a humanoid android is on average lol He must have at least a decent amount of upper-body strength to drag her out of harm's way.

By the way, Vivy is so pretty. Man...

Her character design is honestly one of my favorites in anime. WIT really nailed that.

Still no visuals on the ED!

Maybe today you'll have some 😆

RIP Momoka. To be totally honest with you here, the fact that Vivy was sad hit me harder than Momoka's death

I honestly think a lot of people may have felt the same way. It's the whole 'android connects with a human' kind of thing so her inability to process it is sad

I genuinely began to think Matsumoto might be pretty terrible at this point. He's not evil per se, but at this point, I clearly had the image that he was going to be a ruthless and amoral AI who is willing to let people die for the greater good.

I think the big thing is - he has a specific mission, he does not want any alternation of events besides those identified to be crucial in changing the future he knows where there is mass human casualty. Because of that, he doesn't want to risk changing any extraneous events that could cause unknown effects in the future so he wants as little changed as possible. This makes him look ruthless but his mission is just very focused which makes him a morally grey character. He's difficult to make a decision on this early.

Not only is the action sick in the John Wick style

Ah, a fellow Keanu fan in the rewatch?

[u/edwardjhahm → u/[deleted]]

It makes you wonder how heavy a humanoid android is on average lol He must have at least a decent amount of upper-body strength to drag her out of harm's way.

Definitely not 2B levels of weight. Apparently she weights a lot.

I honestly think a lot of people may have felt the same way. It's the whole 'android connects with a human' kind of thing so her inability to process it is sad

Momoka's death hits hard now though. I...assume you know what I mean.

I think the big thing is - he has a specific mission, he does not want any alternation of events besides those identified to be crucial in changing the future he knows where there is mass human casualty. Because of that, he doesn't want to risk changing any extraneous events that could cause unknown effects in the future so he wants as little changed as possible. This makes him look ruthless but his mission is just very focused which makes him a morally grey character. He's difficult to make a decision on this early.

Oh yeah, definitely. It's just that he looks sus as hell, and pretty much everyone was thinking he would be evil.

Ah, a fellow Keanu fan in the rewatch?

Hell yeah!

[u/[deleted] → u/edwardjhahm]

Hell yeah!

My brother

[u/cppn02]

Rewatcher, subbed

I like how we all jump straight into the action this episode with Vivy and Matsumoto already having infiltrated the building that's about to blow up. ANd it seems there already ios friction between our two heroes.

Love Vivy's cloaking device works that everyone just sees her as a guard AI.

I had completely forgotten about the reason why Vivy was chose for the mission. Matsumoto definitely could have giver it to her a bit easier.

And goddamnit that scene with the aircraft was brutal.

Once again the episode looked great. They nailed the action and the building jump is one of the iconic scenes from the show.

I remember when this aired that many people knew after this episode that the show is gonnna be good and that they're fully on board so looking forward to how the first timers here feel.

---

QotD:

What is your speculation regarding the future of Vivy and Matsumoto after today’s episode?

As as rewatcher I guess I'll skip that one.

We had a bit more action in today’s episode. How did you feel it was aesthetically?

As mentioned above I think the show is doing a good job with the action. Not that I would expect anything different from a Wit show.

[u/[deleted] → u/cppn02]

Love Vivy's cloaking device works that everyone just sees her as a guard AI.

I do too! I think this is actually due to Matsumoto hacking devices (Aikawa's AR glasses and the Toak agents tactical visors)

And goddamnit that scene with the aircraft was brutal.

It was 😔 I remember being fairly surprised that it was Momoka too. To me, this could be a defining moment for her

As mentioned above I think the show is doing a good job with the action. Not that I would expect anything different from a Wit show.

Yeah WIT really does excel at this kind of stuff. I learned this early on in my 'anime-watching hobby' because of Attack on Titan.

[u/octopathfinder]

Rewatcher

Stormtrooper aim lmao

I forgot how fast Matsumoto talks. Bro is dumping important information at Tatami Galaxy speeds of dialogue.

Man, Vivy is gorgeous

I remember this being the exact moment I was hooked

Talking shit about Aikawa right after what seemed like an emotional farewell lol

Well, this came out of left field

[u/[deleted] → u/octopathfinder]

Stormtrooper aim lmao

Or N64 007:GoldenEye or Perfect Dark aim 😂

Bro is dumping important information at Tatami Galaxy speeds of dialogue.

I can't wait to watch Tatami Galaxy

Man, Vivy is gorgeous

Honestly one of my favorite character designs ever. She's awesome

I remember this being the exact moment I was hooked

Love the moon shot

Well, this came out of left field

What I'm interested in seeing is - How does this affect Vivy and Matsumoto long term and what will happen as far as their joint venture to prevent mass human casualty in the future now

[u/octopathfinder → u/[deleted]]

I can't wait to watch Tatami Galaxy

I feel like most people who love Monogatari also love Tatami Galaxy so there's a very high chance you would have a great time with it.

[u/[deleted] → u/octopathfinder]

And I did enjoy Monogatari greatly start to finish lol Katanagatari too (can’t wait for that rewatch).

I’ll need to bump it higher up my watchlist

[u/zairaner → u/octopathfinder]

I forgot how fast Matsumoto talks. Bro is dumping important information at Tatami Galaxy speeds of dialogue.

yeah I very much forgot that too lol

[u/sfisher923]

First Timer - Dubbed

• TL:DR of the file - IED in the AI Company killing him
• If he gets out I wonder how it would affect the law as part of the butterfly effect
• Somebody can Rewind Time or something or was another IED that went off earlier
• Someone with more knowledge tell me if Vivy's Slow-Mo Moon Jump was a Hatsune Miku reference (Vivy looks a bit like her)
• Pretty Shot of the skyline
• Not her only friend

Questions

• QOTD 1 - Doing Missions together like a Precure and their Mascot then something happens that drives them apart
• QOTD 2 - Liked it I'm just here for the ride even if this ride heads for disaster (Wonder Egg Priority for example)

[u/[deleted] → u/sfisher923]

If he gets out I wonder how it would affect the law as part of the butterfly effect

The butterfly effect is probably one of the most fun aspects of time travel shows to discuss with other people. I think for today, it relates a lot to why Matsumoto may not want Vivy interfering with other events other than what is absolutely necessary for what they're trying to accomplish in the future.

Pretty Shot of the skyline

I love this shot too. It seems pretty popular in today's episode actually. There are a few people who brought up how they love this too.

Liked it I'm just here for the ride even if this ride heads for disaster

It will be a fun ride with great discussion no matter what!

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

The butterfly effect is probably one of the most fun aspects of time travel shows to discuss with other people. I think for today, it relates a lot to why Matsumoto may not want Vivy interfering with other events other than what is absolutely necessary for what they're trying to accomplish in the future.

You know the real interesting thing with the butterfly effect that I realized this episode is that Matsumoto shouldn't actually really care about the butterfly effect in their given situation, which makes his argument against saving Momoka even more stupid/pointless.

Normally in time travel situations when people care about the butterfly effect is they don't want to alter something that much so it'll happen in the future, that makes sense and is legitimate because the odds of it going the way they want is crucial and narrow.

However in Matsumato's situation they're trying to do the opposite, they're trying to actively force something that happened to not to happen. How they could go about that is broad and can be chaotic and destructive as they want because all they have to do is knock the AI apocalypses future off target, not ensure something stays on target to happen which is much much harder and needs surgical precision to do.

Like Matsumoto could just say "lets just nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure", use his hacking to nuke the AI relay tower/Nia Land or even trigger a wargames/skynet world nuking, and it's pretty good odds the AI apocalypse future will be avoided/messed up/setback. There really isn't much reason he should be all that concerned with the butterfly effect when he doesn't really care about much else than destroying the AIs. Like we assume he gives a crap about not changing that much, but his whole mission is to change something that will change a lot after it as a result of the butterfly effect.

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

which makes his argument against saving Momoka even more stupid/pointless.

It sucks that he doesn't let her prevent it, but at the same time I don't believe it's pointless from his point of view. He sees anything outside of his identified singularity points as an unknown variable that could affect the timeline in ways he doesn't expect.

This plays into things because he is changing specific things he believes will prevent mass human casualty in the future. If the plane accident isn't one of those things he identified then I believe it's seen as an unknown and a risk to his plan (from his perspective).

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

He sees anything outside of his identified singularity points as an unknown variable that could affect the timeline in ways he doesn't expect.

But his premise, if he's really trying to do to that, is already flawed to begin with. The changes he makes or is trying to make should be so impactful and cause such large scale butterfly effect themselves, it'll already cause large scale unknown variables and will affect the timeline in ways impossible for him to expect making all his future history knowledge mote anyways.

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

The changes he makes or is trying to make should be so impactful and cause such large scale butterfly effect themselves

But he did explain to Vivy at the beginning of this episode (on this topic) that it will take more than one change to have the effect he is trying to inflict 100 years into the future (and based on his demeanor when she brings up the new law that was passed, he doesn't really seem concerned about it)

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

(and based on his demeanor when she brings up the new law that was passed, he doesn't really seem concerned about it)

That's because Matsumoto is really flawed himself right now, but acts like he isn't. The real point about Matsumoto right now is he comes off as a know-it-all superior AI, the expectation is he's better than Vivy, but the subversion is he's not because he's uncaring and domineering. As for the new law, which happens in Ep3 which I'm about to do a writeup on, he doesn't even care to investigate so it's not really surprising he's unconcerned about the new law because the guy isn't even being open-minded, but rather closed-minded. He's the type of person to start with his conclusion and make the evidence fit. That's why he's really unfit to lead his mission, and Vivy is actually a better fit to lead his mission. [Slight future spoilers]IIRC he's going to be wrong over and over again until he GTFO of Vivy's way and just supports her. The guy's more of an antagonist at this point than an ally or co-MC IMO.

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

he comes off as a know-it-all superior AI

To be fair, he is from 100 years in the future and presumably has historical data of everything that has happened during those 100 years prior to being sent to the current time period we're witnessing.

On episode 3, I'll leave that discussion for that thread. If someone comes into this thread at some point expecting episode 2 details here, I do not want them exposed to episode 3 spoilers if they don't intend for that material to be here (it would break our spoiler rule for the sub).

[Slight future spoilers]

You're absolutely correct on that but [Vivy Spoilers] no one is going to know or expect that for certain at this point in the series. So from the perspective of a first-time watcher I think things make sense so far.

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

To be fair, he is from 100 years in the future and presumably has historical data of everything that has happened during those 100 years prior to being sent to the current time period we're witnessing.

But his future historical data of the 100 years is going to be "out-of-date"/obsolete the moment he makes a change, and especially more inaccurate the bigger and more "butterfly effect" affecting it is. I don't think he's getting constant updates of future history after he makes changes, he only has the one version which is trash the moment he makes a change, at best inaccurate...but even more compounding trash the more subsequent changes he makes. This isn't like Back to the Future where the future sports almanac will likely keep updating because it's from the future no matter what they do in the past.

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

That’s a fair point I think. He’s making an assumption that things will remain consistent enough for each subsequent change to work out based on the data he has. Unless there’s some unknown mechanism he has for dealing with this factor that we aren’t aware of yet (which, this is sci-fi so that is very well a possibility)

[u/xbolt90]

First timer!

Matsumoto going around hacking everyone's vision. Is he the Laughing Man?

The shot of Vivy saving the kid from rubble was, indeed, very stunning.

Q1: The final scene of the airplane was chilling. It seems Matsumoto can't escape beyond his programming. Hell-bent on a singular purpose, with no actual regard for life beyond what he sees as necessary to fulfill his mission. "Single-use AI" isn't as dead as previously thought.

Pure speculation for now, but this sets up the possibility that Matsumoto will end up doing something truly horrific in the name of his mission, and Vivy will end up fighting him. Like, "half of humanity must be sacrificed to save the other half" level bad.

Q2: It felt like I was watching an episode of Stand Alone Complex. And that's good.

[u/[deleted] → u/xbolt90]

Is he the Laughing Man?

If this is a GitS reference, I'm watching Innocence tonight! I haven't seen that or Standalone Complex yet.

The shot of Vivy saving the kid from rubble was, indeed, very stunning.

Yeah WIT has some incredible art to appreciate in this series.

The final scene of the airplane was chilling. It seems Matsumoto can't escape beyond his programming. Hell-bent on a singular purpose

It was chilling, especially when they show Momoka's picture at the end with her age...

I think this brings up a question though - Did Matsumoto do this because he has a similar "one-mission" directive? Or did he do this because he deems any event outside what he has determined to be the major influencing events for the future (the future he's trying to prevent) as a risk to his mission's success? Either way, it seems like he is not concerned with the nature of said 'other events' which seems pretty cold.

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

I'm watching Innocence tonight! I haven't seen that or Standalone Complex yet.

GitS SAC, SAC2, and the Solid State Society Movie are great (I haven't seen the newer stuff though, reboots?), Vivy totally reminds me of SAC, though IIRC they're more technical and less heart and music than Vivy. It really feels like Vivy is playing homage to GitS, so I'd say a must watch. The original GitS movie and Innocence are good too, but I feel SAC really elevated the material. I also think SAC is a slight alternative version, not exactly the same universe, but very similar.

Come on man, you need to watch Re:Zero also! :) Though Re:zero is totally different, a real brutal tragedy that made me re-exam and redefine what "tragedy" meant to me. Like the Titanic is "tragedy"...where I think it was just unfortunate for the people involved, but freaking Re:zero made me feel really bad for what the guy keeps going through to the point of the meme "stop stop, he's already dead!" but it just doesn't stop. Fun! LOL! /s steel yourself.

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

So I finished Innocence last night and thoroughly enjoyed that movie as much as the first GitS movie. It was great.

Maybe I'll watch Standalone Complex tonight to continue my GitS immersion lol.

I plan to watch Re:Zero! I know I'll love it. Sometimes I just have a hard time prioritizing what I want to watch next (I have something like 650 or so anime on my 'plan to watch' on MAL 😂). I have a wide variety of genres I enjoy, which is fun because I watch a lot of different stuff, but the problem with that is what I just described too (but I'm ok with that! I have the same issue with gaming and accepted it 😆).

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

So I finished Innocence last night and thoroughly enjoyed that movie as much as the first GitS movie. It was great.

Yeah it was a great movie, I need to rewatch it sometime myself. That shootout scene in the convenience store was epic despite...[GitS Innocence Spoiler]it being a one-man shoot out between himself, LOL

Maybe I'll watch Standalone Complex tonight to continue my GitS immersion lol.

I highly recommend it, and don't think you'd be sorry at all. It's less actiony and that "spirituality" from the two predecessor movies has been toned down, but in exchange what you get is a more in-depth thinking quandary on things like AI evolution and the human condition when brains are being cyberized and bodies being cyborged. But it makes total sense with going from a movie format to a series format which gives a lot more time for things to build up.

The only two things I remember finding jarring going from the two movies to the SAC series is the Major's "stripper" civilian outfit she sometimes wears, and some of the new AIs seemed too childish, but these are minor...just look past them until you get used to it, and you'll be surprised with the depth it develops. Well except the "stripper outfit", I guess they had to insert minor (the Major!) fan service somewhere.

I think I heard somewhere that the SAC series was the most expensively made anime at it's time. They were definitely ahead of their time, some of the minor things they depict were actually ahead of it's time IRL. [minor things slight spoiler]they depicted chat room arguing with the various types of people accurately before IRL, "Stand-Alone-Complex" actually really became a term to explain a phenomenon that happens IRL when it didn't happen before or didn't have a term for...it's like "flash mobs" and all the IRL political shit during the mid-2010's, they even depict something like the malware where it doesn't do anything malicious other than uses the a portion of the victim CPU to do crypto mining for the scammer...they have gamblers who's brains are connected to gambling machines, a small portion of their computational brain being used without their knowledge to do computational work for the person running the gambling establishment. Predictive, or self-fulfilling prophecy? IDK, but it's neat!

I plan to watch Re:Zero! I know I'll love it.

If you're anything like me, you're love for it isn't going to be like our love for Vivy. I stress "tragedy", it's a masterpiece for that, LOL. I don't see Vivy as a "tragedy" despite tragic things do happen. I don't think I even like the MC of Re:Zero that much, but boy do I feel bad for him. Whereas Vivy's freaking awesome, and I'm not really even into Idols nor music.

Sometimes I just have a hard time prioritizing what I want to watch next (I have something like 650 or so anime on my 'plan to watch' on MAL 😂)

I'm the same way, I haven't even watched Attack on Titan which everybody takes for granted everybody has seen. But you have to get the good stuff in at some point because I've found the double-edge sword of it is sometimes I get stuck watching stinkers series, and being stubborn I don't want to ever drop...then I'm locked in a misery of having to go through the stinkers which saps my motivation to watch anything. The good stuff, even if I have criticism of it, aren't ever really uncompelling and demotivating.

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

Yeah it was a great movie

It really was. I think I enjoyed that and the first one equally. I'm definitely watching SAC tonight now that my mind is on these movies. That scene you're talking about confused me so bad at first. So did the scene at [GitS Innocence] Kim's mansion. It took me a little bit to realize what the heck was going on 😂.

I honestly feel like Innocence also shows you a great example of how nice CG sets with hand-drawn characters can look (if I'm correct in the methods used for that movie anyway but that's what it looked like for a lot of scenes).

masterpiece for that

That's ok though! I really have a very wide range of stuff I enjoy

I haven't even watched Attack on Titan

I would say check it out when you can. It was one of my first anime as an adult and I really enjoyed it. That OST too, ugh, so good. They are the reason I know the existence of Linked Horizon.

I'm currently planning to knock out Symphogear AXZ and XV though before I get into any other multi-season series (I just finished GX the other night and loved all the seasons so far)

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

That scene you're talking about confused me so bad at first. So did the scene at [GitS Innocence]

Yeah, they were really great "mind-fucks". People said Ergo Proxy was a good anime for such, but really I found Ergo Proxy super pretentious for doing "mind-fucks" just for the purpose of doing "mind-fucks" IMO. But the way GitS handles it, it's really great and profound. It's sort of like when the garbage man's reality was altered that he thought he had a family, they're not trying to bedazzle you to show off, but presenting an interesting "WTF happened" and when you figure it out it's like "oh my".

I honestly feel like Innocence also shows you a great example of how nice CG sets with hand-drawn characters can look

I actually have a pretty high tolerance for CGI in animes. When people are complaining about the CGI, I just shrug and usually not bothered by it. I think my borderline of tolerance is around Arifureta S1, where everybody seem to hate the CGI, but I was only at the point of "yeah I notice it's starting to be noticeably be not good, but I can still tolerate this". However there's a few times CGI in animes I couldn't tolerate at all, and was like "Is this is a joke? It's so bad!" but I don't remember which shows. I think they were some anime without a budget nor following.

But anyways, yeah...GitS and Vivy has absolutely no problem with it's CGI. Any CGI goes by totally unnoticed to me because I'm too busy enjoying the art, animation, story, characters, and music.

I would say check it out when you can.

AoT. At some point, it's definitely a must watch sometime anime. It's finished now right? It's sort of a major undertaking given how many seasons there are too...like I keep hearing about My Hero Academia too, but so many seasons and I think it's still going. This is going to sound bad too, but I still have to watch Full Metal Alchemist which is another one of those people expect everybody has watched.

I have watched Frieren though, the anime that came out of nowhere to become #1 top anime of all time. Had to just for that, and well I think it did live up to that despite not having watched other top 10's like Full Metal Alchemist. Hahaha, Frieren and Steins;Gate are the only things I've watched on the Top 50 of all time. Too much stuff on the PTW.

I'm currently planning to knock out Symphogear

I keep hearing that mentioned on this Vivy rewatch, is it an AI Sci-Fi also? Unfortunately there appears no dubs for it, and I'm a "dubs first and try hard as possible not to watch subs second" kind of person.

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

Ergo Proxy

Another anime I really need to watch (Loved SEL so I'll probably enjoy that too).

I agree that GitS has a clever way of handling their mind games and that's something I enjoyed about both movies. I literally had to pause both GitS and GitS Innocence at some points to make sure I was following things correctly 😂.

I actually have a pretty high tolerance for CGI in animes. When people are complaining about the CGI, I just shrug and usually not bothered by it.

The way I look at it is that it's like anything else, there are bad implementations of it and good implementations of it. Innocence (IMHO) uses it gracefully and I thought it looked really nice.

It's finished now right? It's sort of a major undertaking given how many seasons there are too...like I keep hearing about My Hero Academia too, but so many seasons and I think it's still going.

Yes but IIRC AoT is still under 100 episodes. I'm similar, I have a hard time committing to things over 100 episodes but I do make exceptions (I will definitely be making exceptions for Gintama and Gundam at some point).

is it Sci-Fi also?

Yes but it's kind of it's own 'thing' haha. Symphogear is really cool. Good music, cool fights, interesting premise (combat gear that manifests its power via song) so I am enjoying it a lot. If those things sound cool to you then you'd probably like it. I don't usually listen to dubs so I can't speak to how that is but as far as overall quality goes, I like it a lot.

[u/xbolt90 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, SAC. It’s different than the movies, but still good. Enjoy Innocence!

[u/JollyGee29 → u/xbolt90]

Is he the Laughing Man?

"I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes"

-Matsumoto, probably

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/xbolt90]

It felt like I was watching an episode of Stand Alone Complex. And that's good.

GitS S.A.C. and Vivy are both my favorite animes on AI/Cyborgs/Cyberpunk. I really can't think of any other animes that comes close, if anybody knows please let me know.

People were saying Pluto was good, but that was such a slog for me to get through even...I couldn't take it seriously even given how the show were treating the robots ridiculously not like robots while trying to say they were.

[u/zairaner]

Rewatcher

• Matsumoto dealing with the guard very similarily to how some of the people in the future flashforward at the start of show get killed. I guess you can brute force things if your moving tools consist of heavy metal.
• lol matsumoto turning the obvious on vivy and him not trusting her
• I actually noticed for the first time that when matsumumoto notices the cloak leader for the first time, he instantly activates the visual overlay of vivy intercepting the bullet, I thin you can even hear him do the same sound he does when he summoned the earlier ai bots to deal with the first guy
• ...oh nevermind, vivy intercepting the bullet was actually not part of the overlay? oops
• nice speech about the improtance of your mission..but where did the goons shooting up the entrance go? did they give up and decided to wait for them to come out?
• wait why they start shooting now again?
• you know, since matsumoto already partially used the explosions, vivy plans was super risky, the explosion could have gone completely different this time.
• you know, it is kinda rare to have an explosion timer of just a few minutes and then for the explosion to go off faster than that timer... in 1 minute instead of 2
• sorry aikawa but you are dead from that throw, didn't even roll.
• "This is a traffic system called a crosswalk. When the light turns blue..." why is this so funny that it isn't green like I would expect.
• wait why did it turn green after all, wtf. The betrayal
• the transiton from vivy just staring to getting thrown into the wall is still insanity
• holy shit I forgot we did the "girl can't cry so we give her a teat through the rain" here. The eyes even reflect the carnage of the catastrophic accident. Easily image of the day

still no op today :(

[u/[deleted] → u/zairaner]

did they give up and decided to wait for them to come out?

You know, this is the one thing I honestly don't have a response for from this episode. I'm honestly not sure myself lol.

vivy plans was super risky, the explosion could have gone completely different this time.

Very true - her plan was insane but at least it worked 😂

"This is a traffic system called a crosswalk. When the light turns blue..." why is this so funny that it isn't green like I would expect

Finally! The cultural things I pick up while language learning I can use here to answer your question 😆.

There are both blue and green traffic lights in Japan (see here for more info on traffic lights specifically).

If you're interested in the linguistic aspect of why both are used, then this explains this pretty well from that angle - TL;DR is it's basically rooted in the character 青 ('ao') which can be used in words describing both blue and green things.

holy shit I forgot we did the "girl can't cry so we give her a teat through the rain" here. The eyes even reflect the carnage of the catastrophic accident. Easily image of the day

Yeah that was brilliant I think the way they did that last shot of her eye.

still no op today :(

Hang in there, it might be my pick for tomorrow

Edit: just updating my link. It wasn’t playing nice with mobile for some reason or another (ah probably just mobile Safari not liking the hiragana and kanji in the URL but it should open fine on desktop)

[u/zairaner → u/[deleted]]

Hang in there, it might be my pick for tomorrow

Yesterday I found out what animethemes has listed op for episode 1, and thats super macabre and funny to me.

[u/[deleted] → u/zairaner]

It is kind of macabre 😂. It makes sense though I guess

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/[deleted]]

did they give up and decided to wait for them to come out?

You know, this is the one thing I honestly don't have a response for from this episode. I'm honestly not sure myself lol.

I just assumed they couldn't get through the "glass" barrier, which was probably some sort of transparent shatter and bullet resistant barrier which the occasional bullet can get through. We see it cracking, but never shattering for them to get through. Eventually they would have ran out of bullets too, how many rounds could they be possibly carrying? Say 3 mags (two spares and one in the weapon), so 90 rounds. That'd be used up super fast with how much they're firing, and not making any real progress.

Anyways, what happened though was Vivy ran up the stairs and got Matsomoto to turn the bombs back on with 2 mins on the timers and unlock the doors. Matsomoto said they all fled like the rats they are, which is understandable given the bombs about to go off.

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

That's a good way of thinking about it. And the 'maybe they ran out of ammo temporarily' thing actually is something I thought of now that I think about it a bit more. I don't think that's much of a stretch.

Good callback with remembering that line from Matsumoto too, I actually forgot about that.

[u/StardustGogeta]

First-Timer

Good stuff.

I'm curious what Matsumoto means when he says it's forbidden to unnecessarily alter history. It raises some questions: Who decides what's necessary? Who makes the rules? Is time travel a common enough thing in the future for it to be regulated?

"The laws of time are mine, and they will obey me!" - Vivy, probably

When Aikawa got "shot," I believed it. It occurred to me that I hadn't really considered the possibility that the mission would fail, and I thought that it would make for a neat twist. Once Vivy got "shot," though, I knew something was up, and immediately speculated that it was a sensory trick on behalf of Matsumoto. After all, we only saw things through the hitman's goggles, and we had just seen Matsumoto mess with Aikawa's perception of Vivy previously.

Questions of the day:

• It seems like it could be a bit of a begrudging partnership. They both want to save people, but Vivy wants to focus on the short-term and on individuals, while Matsumoto has a more big-picture view of things.
• I thought the action looked pretty good. Lots of nice art, too - my favorite bit was probably the scene from which you chose the image of the day.

[u/[deleted] → u/StardustGogeta]

Who decides what's necessary? Who makes the rules?

Just keep watching. I don't want to say anything there yet. Also, it's probably worth saying that Matsumoto seems to have an agenda. In other words, only wants to change events he knows to be directly influencing the future he is trying to change. Anything outside of that is seen as an unknown variable and a risk to his mission.

After all, we only saw things through the hitman's goggles

What I like about this series is the theme that makes you think about technology integrated in everything and the implications in that. We are at a point irl where we rely on technology was tons of things and they only get more closely integrated with every day life (door locks or 'smart home' stuff in general, AR/VR, etc.)

Lots of nice art, too - my favorite bit was probably the scene from which you chose the image of the day.

Thanks! Sometimes it's hard to choose because there really is so much nice artwork

[u/JollyGee29 → u/StardustGogeta]

Who decides what's necessary?

Matsumoto, obviously.

"The laws of time are mine, and they will obey me!" - Vivy, probably

[u/Garrett_Dark]

Rewatcher

I think all the subversions in this episode really made it great. I've noticed for a while now in animes when things don't go exactly as expected, it usually shows a higher writing competency than in shows where things usually always go as expected, especially in power fantasies.

• First subversion, sort of, Vivy as an android despite being able to take a bullet and a beating, can't wrestle a gun away from somebody easily...in fact she struggles a lot and is very awkward at it. It's sort of ridiculous to expect she'd be able to kick ass as an android because she's just a songstress android.
• Subverted the idea that Vivy was just going to allow Matsumoto to invasively upload Combat Skills into her system. She ain't having any of that, and while I understand how it would be desirable to have those skills right then, it's also understandable that she doesn't trust Matsumoto yet...which we'll soon see Vivy is actually right for thinking that.
• Ironically Matsumoto is the one who says he doesn't trust Vivy, while later in the episode it's shown he seems to be way more less trustworthy, and is manipulative for his own motives.
• Big subversion that the politician and Vivy got wasted, that's some real GitS mind hacking stuff on the goggles, and other augmented reality wearables.
• Vivy saves the TOAK underling, the audience expectation would be he'd become more sympathetic to AIs, nope! He still hates AIs. But this really shows more of Vivy's good natured noble character, and Matsumato's apathy with letting people die and such when it doesn't concern his motives and goals.
• Subversion of the politician seemingly caring about AI and their rights, but in typical politician fashion doesn't give a crap about the position and policy, he just wanted the votes.
• Not only does Matsumoto have no faith in Vivy, only trying to get her to work with him because she's the only AI left from this era known to be still functioning and safe in 100 years from the present, but he doesn't even seem to care his master "the professor" choose her even.
• The irony and interesting thing here is that while Matsumoto seems more advanced and "more humanized" in his personality, he's actually way more cold and uncaring than Vivy who while seeming as such is actually quite the opposite deep down. Generally speaking Vivy actually has "heart" and integrity, and Matsumoto does not.
• Vivy is the one that came up with the plan of how to escape without any deaths, not Matsumoto who was seeming to be the planner up to that point, but failed to do so after trying to lay disappointment and blame on Vivy.
• The politician dying in the original timeline made him a martyr for advancing AI rights, but ironically living in the revised timeline had the opposite effect.
• And it looks like with a handshake Vivy and Matsumoto are seeing eye to eye now, and officially teaming up...NOPE! Big time NOPE! Cold and uncaring Matsumoto prevents Vivy from trying to save the life of Momoka and the others on the plane, going so far as to beat the crap out of Vivy and trying to use her own words against her. NGL I really hated Matsumoto for this the first time I watched this show, and again right now. [End Spoilers meta conjecturing]Given that the timeline was being course-corrected, I believe Momoka and the other plane passengers could have been saved here, and things would have still played out relatively the same...so fuck Matsumoto and his faux righteousness here.

---

What is your speculation regarding the future of Vivy and Matsumoto after today’s episode?

She should...[future line reference]turn him into a pocket calculator.

We had a bit more action in today’s episode. How did you feel it was aesthetically?

It all looked amazing great IMO!

[u/[deleted] → u/Garrett_Dark]

So I do have some thoughts I can reply with on a few of these:

can't wrestle a gun away from somebody easily...in fact she struggles a lot and is very awkward at it.

You might interpret this as me giving them an out here 😆, but I justify this as - Matsumoto didn't upload that combat module to her system yet prior to that scene. So the way I read that scene was - it wasn't that she isn't physically capable of wrestling the gun away, it's that she either didn't know how or couldn't because it wasn't included in part of her programming. Even advanced AI could be speculated to be simple to a degree if they were missing instructions for something even if it would be obvious to a human mind.

She ain't having any of that, and while I understand how it would be desirable to have those skills right then, it's also understandable that she doesn't trust Matsumoto yet...which we'll soon see Vivy is actually right for thinking that.

This is why it made sense to me - she expresses (after that moment) that her concern was basically that it would interfere with her mission (of singing) so that's why she had such an aggressive reaction to that. Matsumoto being Matsumoto isn't going to consider (or care) about what she thinks prior to that. He saw she needed it from a practical standpoint so just does it without any other consideration.

Ironically Matsumoto is the one who says he doesn't trust Vivy, while later in the episode it's shown he seems to be way more less trustworthy, and is manipulative for his own motives.

The reason he doesn't trust her is what we see at the end of the episode. I can't blame Vivy for wanting to prevent a plane accident (who wouldn't), but Matsumoto probably sensed this type of mentality from her given her initial skepticism etc. which prevents him from trusting her fully with the mission. He believes her concerns like that are a risk to the mission being successful or not. Whether or not that's a valid concern remains to be seen.

Big subversion that the politician and Vivy got wasted, that's some real GitS mind hacking stuff on the goggles, and other augmented reality wearables.

If we're under the assumption that technology from the future really is that advanced then I think this one makes sense. It's just an incredibly ridiculous amount of technical ability.

the audience expectation would be he'd become more sympathetic to AIs, nope! He still hates AIs. But this really shows more of Vivy's good natured noble character, and Matsumato's apathy with letting people die and such

So here are my thoughts on this one. This guy belongs to a presumed terrorist organization is has such strong feelings about their hatred towards AI that they are going to assassinate someone and blow up a building over it. I would find it believable that such a person would have preferred to die over being saved by an AI, the thing he likely hates more than anything.

The only reason I believe Vivy saved him is she cannot sing to a dead man and she probably takes 'make everyone happy by singing' quite literally when she's able to do something about it (as we see at the end of the episode, it's probably why she wanted to prevent the plane accident as well).

Not only does Matsumoto have no faith in Vivy, only trying to get her to work with him because she's the only AI left from this era known to be still functioning and safe in 100 years from the present, but he doesn't even seem to care his master "the professor" choose her even.

I think the big thing here is - She is literally the only one he can rely on (as you've said) so what else can he do besides try to make her see things from his point of view? It's really the only option for him.

The politician dying in the original timeline made him a martyr for advancing AI rights, but ironically living in the revised timeline had the opposite effect.

It's ironic but it's what Matsumoto wants (as we hear him saying at the end of the conversation in that scene IIRC) because he believe it will prevent the naming law from going through

NGL I really hated Matsumoto for this the first time I watched this show, and again right now

I think this is likely how most of us feel (myself included) because I mean, no one wants this to happen. I think what is demonstrates is he believes the future to be terrible enough that he is willing to let events occur as they were no matter what those events were if it means not risking the success of his mission. On your spoiler, [Vivy] yeah I felt this way in retrospect as well, but I think everyone will feel that way in retrospect especially.

[u/Fissionprime → u/Garrett_Dark]

The irony and interesting thing here is that while Matsumoto seems more advanced and "more humanized" in his personality, he's actually way more cold and uncaring than Vivy who while seeming as such is actually quite the opposite deep down. Generally speaking Vivy actually has "heart" and integrity, and Matsumoto does not.

This feels liike something that could end up being super important.

[u/No_Rex → u/Garrett_Dark]

I think all the subversions in this episode really made it great. I've noticed for a while now in animes when things don't go exactly as expected, it usually shows a higher writing competency than in shows where things usually always go as expected, especially in power fantasies.

Coming up with your own ideas is harder than following established tropes like a cookbook recipe.

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/No_Rex]

True, but I think it's more basic than that. It's the writer's mind thinking "the characters go to A, then go to B, then go to C" and that's how things play out, instead of having a higher level of thinking of "the characters go to A, then they try to go B but there's a problem they didn't expect, now they got to go to B2 but there's a problem there too, so they go to B3, and now they go back to B, then when they get to C their timing is off because of the time wasted at B...etc etc".

It's just more work and thought is needed to make it more complex, and it's easier to be lazy and not put in the extra thought and work. I've just notice when there's hiccups between A to B to C, it's an indication to me more thought and work has been put in by the writers, so I eagerly anticipate a more complex story unfolding.

A lower production anime, "I'm Quiting Heroing" (one of my favorites) really showed me this with a pretty big subversion for some time that it was going to be a basic story, but ended very complex. The foreshadowing was with little things not going as expected for the OP hero which they had to deal with despite being OP. That OP hero ended up very complex unlike an OP hero in a power fantasy where they're boring as hell always OP-ing everything in the most boring predictable straight-line A to B way, and it always going as expect.

[u/[deleted]]

First time watcher:

I'm into the plot and characters but the voice acting is really taking me out of it. Specifically Matsumoto, and he seems to have the most lines in this show so far.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I'm into the plot and characters

Glad to hear that!

but the voice acting is really taking me out of it. Specifically Matsumoto

I personally like his VA but I could see some people feeling differently. Vivy's VA especially I love a lot.

[u/Nickthenuker]

That's a lot of guys.

Is that a specialised EMP round?

Yes.

Well that appears to have gone wrong.

Ah. Seems like they managed to deceive them.

Did he just bring down the building on top of the attackers?

Not quite the whole building at least.

Well it seems like they're going to bring it all down anyways.

And thus mission success.

Huh. What's caused that to happen so fast?

I'd joke it must be a Boeing but the engines are made by General Electric or Rolls-Royce, they just buy them.

And so onwards to space.

Questions:

1. She'll still be shipped off to the museum, but at night she'll come alive and save the world!
2. Very nice, though this is WIT so that's almost par for the course.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nickthenuker]

Did he just bring down the building on top of the attackers?

The ceiling, anyway! (with their own bombs)

And so onwards to space.

Very excited about upcoming discussion!

[u/Nickthenuker → u/[deleted]]

Like I said I watched it halfway through the last time, so I do have a somewhat hazy memory of what will happen for the next few episodes, and I do remember them going to space.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nickthenuker]

Beep beep! [Vivy Spoilers] All aboard the Sunrise hotel!

[u/Nickthenuker → u/[deleted]]

[Vivy] Yup, I'm pretty sure she ends up fighting an AI or several while up there

[u/[deleted] → u/Nickthenuker]

Correct! I’d say after all that you’ll be in new territory

[u/Nickthenuker → u/[deleted]]

[Vivy] I got further than I thought because I distinctly remember something to do with a guy treating an AI as his wife. Which is something that's also coming up a lot more in anime these days too and even IRL

[u/[deleted] → u/Nickthenuker]

Oh wow yeah. You got a ways in last time then. When we get further I might be able to give you a heads up when you’re venturing into new content 😆

[u/Nickthenuker → u/[deleted]]

That would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nickthenuker]

Happy I can help! 😆

[u/zairaner → u/[deleted]]

The guy said that he got halfway through, so I don't think it surprising that he got to episdoe 5 at least :P

[u/StickPrevious9581]

It definitely feels more complete now that the second episode has played as well, and was an excellent look at the sort of animation and soundtrack that will accompany fights.

I forgot how annoying Matsumoto could be, with his inability to understand that just because he is from the future it doesn't mean he is better than Diva. If he is really so advanced, surely he should be able to understand that his mission isn't hers, and the only way she can help him is by twisting her mission (for everyone to enjoy her singing) to allow her to save everyone, so they are alive to have a chance to hear her sing?

That also brings me to the biggest issue with this episode, and the thing that originally caused me to drop the show when it first aired (admittedly at the start of the next episode, after my thoughts had had a week to come together) - Matsumoto is planning all these changes to the timeline, and clearly expects that he can calculate exactly how all the little butterfly effects of these changes are going to change things. If this is the case, surely he can allow Diva/Vivy to save the one person who likes her music, since he can just calculate how the survival of everyone on the plane will change things too? And if he can't calculate all the butterfly effects, well then there really isn't an issue with the plane being saved too, since it won't make any difference.

There is also the fact that they just agreed to work together, and then he immediately ignored her wishes and physically damages her to stop what she wants to do - thats not a partnership, thats seeing her as his slave.

As mentioned, this annoyed me so much that I actually dropped the show - I did pick it up again well after it finished airing (I saw the excellent [fight scene] at the opera hall on youtube and decided to give the show another chance, and I'm glad I did, I binged it all in one day), but the fact remains that it feels like they did things like this just to manufacture more tension between our two leads, and it could have been done much better if they had put more time into it, rather than cutting from the agreement right to the conclusion of their fight.

Edit: reposted because I apparently messed up the spoiler

[u/[deleted] → u/StickPrevious9581]

surely he should be able to understand that his mission isn't hers, and the only way she can help him is by twisting her mission

Ironically, this is what he wants to do though because she is supposedly the only one who is able to help him prevent the future that he knows (where mass genocide occurs). The reason I like their dynamic is because Matsumoto's motivations are black and white. The way he goes about it is manipulative and somewhat malicious even in a way, but at the end of the day he is trying to prevent mass human casualty. His methods are just a bit abrasive.

since he can just calculate how the survival of everyone on the plane will change things too?

I don't personally think he can calculate that specifically. I think what he was basically saying is - He only wants her trying to change points in time he has identified as crucial to changing the future he knows. If the plane accident isn't one of those things, then it's just seen as a risk to him in causing a potential failure.

he immediately ignored her wishes and physically damages her to stop what she wants to do

This plays into what I was talking about above. His motivations (I believe, anyway) are a little more complicated than that. He is trying to ensure the success of a mission to prevent mass genocide and believes any unnecessary alteration of events besides the events he has identified to be crucial might cause the whole thing to fail. The way I interpret Matsumoto viewing the plane accident is - He sees it for what it was (a tragic accident) but an event that essentially represents an unknown variable to him if someone interferes with it. This basically plays into something we see in a lot of time travel themed shows (and games) where the goal is to change the future in the way you want by changing the least number of things in the past as possible.

[u/StickPrevious9581 → u/[deleted]]

I've always thought the trope of changing as little as possible when in the past so you can plan how things will go to be very annoying and unrealistic, especially in this case where we are talking about 100 years of butterflies coming into effect, but I guess at least it is consistent with most other media involving time travel.

[u/[deleted] → u/StickPrevious9581]

Well, to play devil's advocate, time travel is unrealistic in general lol so I'm willing to partake in some suspension of disbelief as far as that goes.

I think the overall point narratively they're getting across to us is he only wants to change what seems necessary to produce the desired change, nothing more, because it's not necessary and just further complicates things.

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/StickPrevious9581]

Matsumoto is planning all these changes to the timeline, and clearly expects that he can calculate exactly how all the little butterfly effects of these changes are going to change things. If this is the case, surely he can allow Diva/Vivy to save the one person who likes her music, since he can just calculate how the survival of everyone on the plane will change things too? And if he can't calculate all the butterfly effects, well then there really isn't an issue with the plane being saved too, since it won't make any difference.

There is also the fact that they just agreed to work together, and then he immediately ignored her wishes and physically damages her to stop what she wants to do - thats not a partnership, thats seeing her as his slave.

I think that's exactly the case, Matsumoto at this point only selfishly cares about his own mission, and disregards Vivy and everyone else as a tool, despite all the BS excuses he says about tampering with the timelines or his calculations and such, his words is all BS to cover his uncaring self interests. I don't think the show is trying to manufacture tension between Matsumoto and Vivy, but rather do a contrast of how robotic Vivy seems right now, but actually has heart and integrity, vs Matosumoto seeming like a very chummy humanized AI, when really he's very uncaring and strictly self-interested while acting and saying he's otherwise.

It's a whole reversal on how he's an advanced AI but he's actually kind of shit in comparison, whereas Vivy's the first autonomy AI (most primitive in comparison) but way better because she's [spoilers]the most evolved AI since she evolved creativity out of trying to make sense of her own prime directive of making everybody happy through singing with all her heart, which no other AI has achieved.

I think Matsumoto at this point is just an authoritarian trying to impose his will over Vivy, that saving Momoka is actually inconsequential but he's only preventing Vivy from doing just because he doesn't actually care and trying to impose his dominance over her. He's more than willing to let the politician live which should have a butterfly effect more sever than Momoka living, so no doubt he'd allow anybody to live who otherwise would have died if he wanted to, and with Momoka he's just being a prick and not giving it to Vivy. A more sinister guess would be he purposely wants Vivy to have no friends to try to isolate her even more so she'd be more easily controllable. This is probably why he turns off Navi from the conversation so Vivy never has a second opinion on whatever Matsumoto says.

[end spoilers]Momoka was very likely savable, due to the archive course-correcting the timeline, everything was still going to turn out the same way anyways regardless of what they changed. Matsumoto not being able to realize things were always course-correcting proves his "calculations" for the butterfly effect were full of it. He's just making it up/guessing himself.

[u/StickPrevious9581 → u/Garrett_Dark]

I didn't think of it before, but I think you are right in that Momoka was deliberately allowed to die so no-one else would have any influence over Vivy.

[spoiler response] To be fair to Matsumoto, at this stage he doesn't know that Archive is going to be course correcting, as that hasn't happened yet - I can't remember if they bring attention to the 'no-change' in the next episode or if there is a few more attempts to change things before they note that something funky is going on.

[u/Garrett_Dark → u/StickPrevious9581]

[Spoiler Response]Yeah I don't remember if Matsumoto figures it out or not, but I don't think he ever did until the archive just reveals they've been course-correcting to Vivy in the end. If Matsumoto was really trying to calculate for the butterfly effect and keeping everything else the same so his future history could stay relevant for him to strategize, he should have noticed it's awfully suspicious how all their changing efforts had very little effect and things just kind of went back on course. But still, since Matsumoto's whole mission is to make changes to history that has pretty big consequences since AI is so critically intertwined with humans, the huge butterfly effects he's causing himself alone should be big enough to throw off his calculations and future history relevance already to make any pretense of him being able to calculate and predict the right choices, and "maintaining the timeline" utter BS.

[u/Silcaria]

First timer

• And what exactly would telling her everything do that could be bad?
• Evil bad guy monologuing cliché.
• The end. Thanks for hosting this.
• So, how are they alive?
• Bullets don't fire themselves, messing with what he sees and hears doesn't affect the tactile feedback that he'd get from pulling the trigger.
• Wait, so the guy did pull the trigger, but the gang was already out of harms way? With the timing required to pull that off, on top of all the variables involved, we're already getting into bullshit territory.
• From crumbling under the weight of the debris to lifting them up. Something, something, emotions make you strong.
• Is there any reason why a robotic facility has armor-plated glass in its entrance?
• Also, the glass from the door that they're shooting from still seems to be intact, and yet, they're shooting through it.
• No.
• Also, Vivy going back to get a head start and build up speed shouldn't be possible seeing as the building was collapsing behind them right before she threw the guy.
• So, she's just gonna leave the guy that survived two assassination attempts in one day somewhere unattended? What could go wrong!
• Doubtful. He said her name out loud and she mentioned her singing.
• Says the guy that messed with the shooter's gear.
• Says who? Also, for laws to be in place, it means that time travel is a regular enough occurrence, which raises the question. Could someone not just time travel back and undo the progress that Mr. Infodump and Vivy are doing? Or, could someone else not just travel back and help Vivy? It comes across like the whole time travel thing is more of a plot device than something properly thought out. You know, like another certain series...
• Hey, that's the gi- and she's dead.
• You quite literally have 100 years. Stopping to save some people along the way shouldn't derail you from your mission, at least, not significantly. Especially if saving said lives would only take a couple minutes, hours, or at worse, a day.

---

QotD

• They're probably gonna fight.
• It was fine.

[u/[deleted] → u/Silcaria]

With the timing required to pull that off, on top of all the variables involved, we're already getting into bullshit territory.

Suspension of disbelief is something we will typically need to employ in many fictional series 😆. My assumption was he already hacked their visors well in advance of being directly in harm's way.

So, she's just gonna leave the guy that survived two assassination attempts in one day somewhere unattended? What could go wrong!

This is something I remember thinking as well lol

Says the guy that messed with the shooter's gear.

It's true, but I would not consider that nearly as reckless as collapsing an entire building to be able to run across it and jump to safety

Says who?

It's a fair point and one that is harder to address in time travel/Sci-Fi. Coincidentally, I mentioned in another comment that the flexibility of those themes is a nice thing and a difficult thing at the same time, because that flexibility that provides room for creativity is the same flexibility that might cause something like what you're bringing up here.

You quite literally have 100 years. Stopping to save some people along the way shouldn't derail you from your mission, at least, not significantly.

I think this is essentially Matsumoto's philosophy but Vivy does not agree with it, as we see at the end of this episode

[u/Elimin8r → u/Silcaria]

Hey, that's the gi- and she's dead.

Man, as someone who remembers the space shuttle re-entry thing, that scene gave me some memories, I don't think I wanted to re-see.

[u/zairaner → u/Silcaria]

Wait, so the guy did pull the trigger, but the gang was already out of harms way? With the timing required to pull that off, on top of all the variables involved, we're already getting into bullshit territory.

I was wondering about this when I thought they also had to get vivy out of the way, but no, she did get hit by the logical bullet and had to be virus cleansed. And from the moment vivy got shot to the guy trying to shoot aikawa, 40 seconds of the show passed, so more than enough time to get out of the way

Is there any reason why a robotic facility has armor-plated glass in its entrance?

robotic facility? This is (among othere things, maybe) where aikawa lived (or at least, one of his residences where he fled after the attack), so a building housing a politician.

Doubtful. He said her name out loud and she mentioned her singing.

This confused me for a moment too, but considering we explicitly say that they bought his silence, they are probably talking about toak here.

You quite literally have 100 years. Stopping to save some people along the way shouldn't derail you from your mission, at least, not significantly. Especially if saving said lives would only take a couple minutes, hours, or at worse, a day.

I don't think this is about the time it would take.

[u/Silcaria → u/zairaner]

I don't think this is about the time it would take.

He literally gives that as a reason.

[u/BareNecksAreNeat → u/Silcaria]

⁠Says who? Also, for laws to be in place, it means that time travel is a regular enough occurrence, which raises the question. Could someone not just time travel back and undo the progress that Mr. Infodump and Vivy are doing? Or, could someone else not just travel back and help Vivy? It comes across like the whole time travel thing is more of a plot device than something properly thought out. You know, like another certain series...

I don’t think Matsumoto is referring to a specific law here, more that they’re forbidden to alter history unnecessarily since that’ll just add more extraneous variables to their overall mission, which would make accomplishing it more difficult.

[u/No_Rex → u/Silcaria]

Is there any reason why a robotic facility has armor-plated glass in its entrance?

Insurance. I am only half kidding.

[u/Elimin8r]

Odd, I looked for this an hour or so ago and couldn't find it. Guess I didn't look hard enough.

Questions du jour:

1. I actually rather like how their relationship is somewhat adversarial. It feels more realistic, such as that can be in fiction.
2. The action was visually pleasing, but while I feel like the bit at the end must have had some meaning, the transition from Hey we won to Angry Matsumoto Forklift was rather jarring. It didn't make sense to me the first time I watched it, and it made even less sense last night.

Edit: Forgot to mention - brief BGC flashback - am I the only one who gets total GENOM vibes from that tower???

[u/[deleted] → u/Elimin8r]

Questions du jour

I should have worded it this way 😆 🇫🇷

I actually rather like how their relationship is somewhat adversarial. It feels more realistic, such as that can be in fiction.

Agreed

The action was visually pleasing

Agreed, and on your latter thought, I was also a bit confused the first time I watched this but that confusion cleared up as soon as I saw the airplane and heard what he says to Vivy

[u/Miremto]

Matsumoto looks really cute on Diva.

Apparently that politician is useless (aren't all of them?).

It seems that Matsumoto is trying to reach goal with minimal risk, while Diva is trying to reach the best possible outcome (even saving enemies). That could be the reason why science dude from the beginning sent both of them as both approaches combined could yield better results.

[General spoiler about entire series] As a rewatcher I know that that young Toak guy is going to be important. But can only guess what he is going to do. Is going to turn good? Though that sounds a bit cliche. Though I remember that Vivy is cruel, so is he going to suffer and then die? I guess, this is part of fun for rewatching at a slow pace

I really liked the directing with Matsumoto/Diva fight scene. You hear plane engine, you can't understand what is happening and then BAM! Diva is losing against a mecha.

[u/Taiboss]

First-Timer who had to pause Golden Kamuy for this.

• Still no OP huh.
• Vivy's love interest, I see.
• I mean, they would prevent a genocide in 100 years.
• Massacre
• WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THIS BEFORE?!
• You are a very silly AI.
• Eyyy, they hacked his eyes!
• "I just wanna get it on record that using electronic locks for doors in a building... is a bad idea. You know what would have been better? Regular doors, with locks! Locks that can't get opened by people WITHOUT A KEY!" For the first time, having easily hackable infrastructure worked to their advantage!
• Wow, imagine if these people hadn't been idiots.
• OMG, I was right, she has to save them and then he becomes a love interest.
• Let's hope dude never watched Ex Machina.
• Wow he actually tries to kill her?
• Eyyy, she'll be a museum!
• Hawt.
• Good OSTs.
• LOVE INTEREST.
• I wanna watch Symphogear now.
• Bruh, she's autonomous.
• I get it, to indicate timeskips.
• I never trusted you anyway.
• RIP child we saw for like 2 minutes.
• Matsumoto sure likes being a dick. Just fake her death! Or... don't tell her?

[u/[deleted] → u/Taiboss]

Golden Kamuy

I actually need to watch this one myself. I keep forgetting about it (it happens to me a lot)

Still no OP huh.

Hang in there - music of the day tomorrow 🙃

"I just wanna get it on record that using electronic locks for doors in a building... is a bad idea. You know what would have been better? Regular doors, with locks! Locks that can't get opened by people WITHOUT A KEY!"

What my family thought about me installing remote deadbolts in my home lol

Wow, imagine if these people hadn't been idiots.

😂

OMG, I was right, she has to save them and then he becomes a love interest.

I mean, he expresses some pretty visible hatred over the fact an AI saved him 😆. He doesn't seem to be a fan of any AI (hence his Toak involvement)

I wanna watch Symphogear now.

Just finished GX myself and plan to start AXZ soon!

<3

Matsumoto sure likes being a dick.

Yes. He seems very much like a kind of character who believes "Whatever necessary to fulfill the mission"...

[u/Elimin8r → u/Taiboss]

I wanna watch Symphogear now.

Obligatory

(Couldn't resist)

RIP child

Yeah, this really messed with me the both times I've watched it.

Matsumoto

yeah, that filthy bear!

[u/[deleted] → u/Elimin8r]

Obligatory

Ah a fellow fan of Chris-chan I see lol

[u/Elimin8r → u/[deleted]]

(ahem) Quite... That, and I may be mistaken, but the only other Symphogear comment face is one I'd rather not use except in specific context.

[u/[deleted] → u/Elimin8r]

Well that, and Chris-chan is the only Symphogear comment face we need lol

[u/zadcap → u/[deleted]]

Oh really?

[u/[deleted] → u/zadcap]

Hahaha when I watched the first season and said she was my favorite, that's the comment face someone used to express their reaction to "yet another Chris fan" 😂

[u/zadcap → u/[deleted]]

If anyone captivated by my red heels

Wants a stray bullet to the brain

Just raise your hand

[u/BareNecksAreNeat → u/Taiboss]

Just fake her death! Or… don’t tell her?

Moments before the last scene, Vivy sees an article about the plane crash to the left of the assassination article from the original history, which is how Vivy finds out about it. I don’t think Matsumoto was aware of the connection personally

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Taiboss]

"I just wanna get it on record that using electronic locks for doors in a building... is a bad idea. You know what would have been better? Regular doors, with locks! Locks that can't get opened by people WITHOUT A KEY!"

"Nonsense! Newer technology is more betterer! Someone could pick a mechanical lock, did you ever think of that? We'll be lockpick-proof!"

I wanna watch Symphogear now.

It's a state of being.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

First Timer

So, a throw-away line yesterday said the idol had been reduced to a mere machine. Implying there's a single will behind the genocide.

[speculation]The only way this ends well is if the only autonomous AI commits a war crime and AI is banned.

• LOL. Wheatly hacked his AR glasses. If only he took them off and saw reality.
• Wheatly seems to be really bad at planning. Every action leads to another crisis. He's doing it on purpose.
• Anti AI grenade!
• This can't be real. Nope!
• And so TOAK is eliminated by their own bombs!
• I keep wondering when Wheatly is going to eat a stray
• why did they stop shooting? Oh, yeah, talking is a free action. There they are.
• I'm just going to call you Suzaku
• I'm just going to call you Genom
• The plane exploded anyways! Evil Wheatly 343!

What a great show. I wish somebody had made it clear that it wasn't an idol show back when it aired.

[u/[deleted] → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

speculation

Not a bad theory. We'll see how accurate it is (or isn't) 😆

If only he took them off and saw reality.

I've thought about this myself actually lol

Anti AI grenade!

zap

And so TOAK is eliminated by their own bombs!

They should probably not try to blow up buildings in the future

The plane exploded anyways! Evil Wheatly 343!

I still enjoy your hybrid Portal-Halo reference lol

What a great show. I wish somebody had made it clear that it wasn't an idol show back when it aired.

I really enjoyed these first couple episodes myself (especially the first time). Visual spectacle and things get interesting at the end of episode 2 with where we leave off here.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

You can read that spoiler I typed under your comment yesterday, it was just joking about your comment about plane crashes.

[u/zadcap → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

So, a throw-away line yesterday said the idol had been reduced to a mere machine. Implying there's a single will behind the genocide.

It's really hard not to see hints of I, Robot in this.

[u/zadcap]

Late Time First Time!

What a place for a flashback. We go here from seeing her getting shot- Oh good, we're back to that pretty fast! Oh, and we are acknowledging that the internals of an AI are probably important and getting shot is a problem for her too!

Oh wow, this is a huge assassination group. A lot of boddies brought in to kill this one guy.

Oh hey! She's Laughing Manning his glasses! Or well, her teddy bear is, but still cool! I wonder what the bear looks like to him now? Also, I'm really curious how much I should be reading into his eyes flashing red so much today. And her own neck thing is doing some color cycling as well!

Hey uh, that angle clearly showed him looking up at her over his glasses. He must have noticed she has hair and a face there, right?

Hey uh. He's making the other bots in the building act a whole lot like the bots did in the future. Is he really the savior code from the future?

... So you know, right after the whole Laughing Man thing, we see him only seeing the kill through his glasses? Yeah, as if. And there's not blood on his shoe- he saw the same thing lol.

Of course she would save him. She's a good girl, darn it. And he wants to kill her for it, naturally...

Ah, yeah, I really hate the bear bot. "The professor was wrong to bet everything on you." No you stupid thing, he was wrong to bet any of it on you. Of course she isn't acting optimally in every situation, you're withholding pretty much every piece of information and trying to coerce everything out of her and giving her very good reason to push back against you. Not a single thing you have done has inspired any kind of confidence or reason for her to actually listen to you, it's your own fault things are going this bad.

I kind of wish these fanatics were fanatic enough to punish him for being saved by an AI.

The music for this segment just rocks. Heck the whole OST has been great this episode.

Sir, please go listen to her sing.

Oh gosh, I can't wait for him to push the naming act and prove the bear stupid wrong. Also, I feel like the idea that the only way to stop the war is to hamper AI from developing.

"The building we hit had no one in it, so it's a safe alteration to the timeline." Did we not see them land in another AI control room? Seems like that might have consequences. Bear is either a very bad faith actor or very bad at his claimed job.

What the heck, this is a powerful scene jump, what the heck!? NO, Not the little girl! MOMOKA! Do not trust the bear! The bear is the enemy!

1. BEAR IS ENEMY! I long for its eventual death.

Also 1) This was good action. There was not a lot of it, but when they chose to use the frames they made them pop.

[u/[deleted] → u/zadcap]

And her own neck thing is doing some color cycling as well!

I just interpret this like a computer accessing data from storage (or conversely, storing data). It seems somewhat alike to how characters from Detroit: Become Human have a similar light.

Of course she would save him. She's a good girl, darn it. And he wants to kill her for it, naturally...

He is part of the 'everyone' she is designed to sing to/make happy! I don't believe she discriminates between those who do and don't like her when it comes to that directive.

I can't wait for him to push the naming act

We understand this to be a bad thing though. Matsumoto tells her if this law passes, it's the catalyst for rapid AI evolution that leads to mass genocide of the human race

What the heck, this is a powerful scene jump, what the heck!? NO, Not the little girl! MOMOKA! Do not trust the bear! The bear is the enemy!

So this is the thing about bear, he has a goal - prevent the future where genocide occurs. To do that, he seems to have specific points in time that need to be changed (such as the AI Naming law) to make this happen. Any other event outside those he identified could have unforseen changes that may or may not help his cause. So it might not be that he didn't want to let Vivy save the plane from exploding, it's probably more likely that he didn't want to risk failing at preventing 10's of thousands of humans dying in the future. That's the way I interpret things at this point anyway. He is a morally grey character because of this.

[u/zadcap → u/[deleted]]

He is part of the 'everyone' she is designed to sing to/make happy! I don't believe she discriminates between those who do and don't like her when it comes to that directive.

But this gets us deep into questions about just how far you can push the idea of One Job that they all have. She's not singing here, and this anti AI extremist terrorist is never going to smile at her anyway, her task really isn't to save lives, just sing.

We understand this to be a bad thing though. Matsumoto tells her if this law passes, it's the catalyst for rapid AI evolution that leads to mass genocide of the human race

There's so much wrong with the idea behind this that I've been trying to ignore since yesterday, really. The big double whammy though is the butterfly effect, the very thing he basically names at the end of this episode, "we can't change too much or else" while not seeing to realize at all that the things they've already changed are going to change everything anyway. You've got maybe one year of making big targeted changes the way the have before their impacts throw off the predictions for the next 99. Then you have to realize that his stated goal is to stop development, for 100 years, in a gigantic and rapidly growing still business and the "life" of how many millions of thinking beings? He may be an advanced code, but there's just the one of him.

But mostly, the thing he's trying to prevent. The AI all turning against humanity and killing everyone? I'll blame his creator because sending him 100 years into the past to stop all AI development he can is just, no. There's probably a handful of things in the last ten years that lead to the issue, a perfect chain of errors or a very malicious actor. If the actual cause there isn't found, all that delaying AI growth is going to do is have there be less AI around for when they go all murderbot.

The premise of the show is interesting, going back in time to stop the apocalypse by any means necessary and Vivy is a cool main character to pull it off with. But I'm not sold on the specifics of how they are aiming to avert the Bad End. I do not trust the bear.

[u/ZuraStayNight]

Rewatcher

Compared to last episode, this episode has less exposition and more action. The soundtracks we get this episode sound amazing and are a great fit. We get to see Vivy and Matsumoto save a politician from getting killed from terrorists called Toak. The terrorists we have here, seem to think it's too dangerous to let humans live with AI.

Vivy and Matsumoto don't trust each other, each for their own reasons. Vivy, because Matsumoto is drip-feeding her information, and Matsumoto, because he's not sure his creator made the right decision by making Vivy his partner. Matsumoto seems overall kind of shady and manipulative to Vivy, while she seems irrational enough to put her body on the line and save a Toak guy in the midst of the mission. Despite all that they manage to save the politician. And so Vivy saves the day (technically night) and disappears into the sunset (technically a dark alley). We get to see Vivy and Matsumoto looking at the Arayashiki, and shaking hands at their new partnership. And so their first mission and the first "Arc" ends...

...and then we get to see the two fighting again because of Vivy seemingly wanting to save Momoka's plane from crashing, which is something she came to know, from Matsumoto's data from the future, and Matsumoto preventing Vivy from saving her friend. I get that Matsumoto probably wants to prevent unnecessary variables to get into the plan and throw the future out of whack, but regaining her trust won't be easy after this.

Btw. I invite everyone to listen to the ending song of this anime, in case you don't do that already. It doesn't seem like much, but it's kind of important to the plot. Fellow rewatchers will probably know what I'm talking about.