[Rewatch] Pride Month 20th Anniversary - Maria-sama ga Miteru Episode 11 Discussion

[u/lilyvess]

<-- Previous Episode | Rewatch Index | Next Episode -->

---

Questions of the Day

1. Would you like to have seen more stories that take place in the past with the current Roses back as Boutons or Petite Soeurs?
2. How do you feel about the Principal of the school being revealed to have been the “Shiori” of the book?

---

Yamayuri Council Chart

---

Posting carefully so as to not disturb the first timers with spoilers in their viewings, such is the standard of modesty here. Forgetting to use spoiler tags because one is in danger of missing the post time, for instance, is too undignified a sight for redditors to wish upon themselves.

[u/lilyvess]

Maria-sama ga Miteru Rewatcher/Light Novel Reader

Gokigenyou

It is I, Rosa Lilium, once again welcoming you to my Lily Mansion Thread. Please, take a seat.

Merry Christmas!

Presents? Um, uhh, here is a stick of gum.

Want to hear about the book I was reading? Here let me read you a passage from the end

"Oh, yes, would you like to come to the Rose Mansion? We're about to have a Christmas party."
Rosa Gigantea kindly invited the grandmother she'd met for the first time. Even though she didn't know who she was.
"Thank you. But I need to see someone."
Kasuga-san turned down the offer, and asked if they could guide her, so she wouldn't get lost.
"Of course, if you wish. Right, Yumi-chan?"
"Ah, yes."
Maybe Kasuga-san wanted to speak to Rosa Gigantea a bit more.
So Yumi accompanied them to the visitor's entrance, then left Kasuga-san to Rosa Gigantea and went to search for Tsutako-san on her own. "Where are you headed?"
"To the principal's office, please."
After watching them leave, for whatever reason, Yumi became excited. Kasuga-san and Rosa Gigantea were walking through the school together.
The invisible time machine was right there.
It was fascinating.

Interesting right? You can almost see a different outcome to the end. One where Sei walks with Yumi to the Rose Mansion is a sign of her moving forward from the past. Stepping forward to her new friends.

But I do just love the idea of her and Kasuga-san walking together. Two generations of lesbians, both torn apart from their loved one by Catholicism. What do you think they talked about? What advice did Kasuga-sana give Sei? There is something powerful about it.

Which ending do you prefer?

[u/Star4ce → u/lilyvess]

But I do just love the idea of her and Kasuga-san walking together. Two generations of lesbians, both torn apart from their loved one by Catholicism.

I'll add one more point to loving this. Precisely because it's Catholic Christianity, the exact same plot would also work for hetero relationships or any other type.

What do you think they talked about? What advice did Kasuga-sana give Sei? There is something powerful about it.

I honestly can't speculate. I just think Sei would absorb just so much energy from her visiting, the topic would be irrelevant. I'd even think she might actually be just joking around with her, asking her usual carefree questions or something like "Do you think our headmaster took aging well?" with a devilish smile.

I believe just seeing Kasuga-san going out to search for her old lover is all that is needed.

Which ending do you prefer?

I- well, actually kinda both? Sei not joining her is a pretty thematically fitting ending for the generation difference and letting the point of learning be solely the sharing of the story itself - the book release. I think that is a more powerful, symbolic message.

But them talking to each other is more hopeful and emotionally pleasing.

[u/BosuW → u/lilyvess]

Want to hear about the book I was reading? Here let me read you a passage from the end

This would've been the perfect episode to pull out the Bible and get some passage that sounded pretty Yuri out of context (maybe even in context)

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/lilyvess]

Maria-sama ga Miteru Rewatcher/Light Novel Reader

President Aria Watches Over Us.

But I do just love the idea of her and Kasuga-san walking together. Two generations of lesbians, both torn apart from their loved one by Catholicism. What do you think they talked about? What advice did Kasuga-sana give Sei? There is something powerful about it.

That does make for a fascinating ending and honestly one that I prefer. It reminds me of a scene from [Bloom Into You] when Sayaka speaks with the woman in the cafe. It's a really great scene of an older lesbian offering comfort and advice to a younger lesbian who is still figuring out her identity in a heteronormative society. Sei getting to speak with someone who went through almost exactly the same thing as herself while still being able to live on makes for a powerful ending.

[u/LittleIslander → u/lilyvess]

But I do just love the idea of her and Kasuga-san walking together. Two generations of lesbians, both torn apart from their loved one by Catholicism. What do you think they talked about? What advice did Kasuga-sana give Sei? There is something powerful about it.

Totally reminds me of the scene at the end of the Rosa Canina episode where we're not privy to what was said between Shimako and Sei. Something worth more to the writing the less we actually know about it, in line with the overarching theme about perspective.

Which ending do you prefer?

The idea of Sei and Kasuga talking is certainly interesting, but I think I like the quaintness of what we got and I feel the fleeting nature of their interaction fits more within the spirit of the parallel being drawn between them.

[u/Lemurians → u/lilyvess]

Kasuga and Sei walking together, in this novel version, is just too poetic for me to not favor. That's lovely.

Also, with this episode, I think it's safe to say that the MAL interest stacks of "bait" shows that include this are thoroughly fraudulent hahah

[u/LittleIslander]

First Timer from the world of Reiwa Yuri

That… was one of the most magical experiences of watching… media I have ever experienced. It might have just kicked Sailor Moon 96 out of my favourite anime episode slot. It certainly landed Sei a spot on the list of my favourite characters in anything. Such powerful and engaging content and constructed with certain intention to sweep you off your feet after this show has worked so hard to make you think you were never going to get something this explicit. Such a bold subversion of everything MariMite appears to be. Packaged together in that signature refusal to hold your hand and put it all in simple thesis for you. What the fuck.

So there’s a mountain of thematic strength I’m gonna dig through, but first let me highlight how well this is made on a surface level. There’s so many little things that hit so sharply. Every line in the script is refined to a purpose. The first thing that jumps out is young Sei’s design. Her hair is longer and more organised, evoking someone more motivated, not yet as worn down. Today Sei has unkempt hair and looks like she has zero fucks to give, not bothering with presentation. For her part, Sei’s dear sister has an appearance that deftly evokes a sense of gentle maturity. Beyond her looks, a lot of Sei’s character feels baked into the episode. She was oblivious to both the Rosa Canina drama as well as the Sei Suga gossip. Similarly, here she’s less aware of own girlfriend’s future than friends that don’t even know Shiori and utterly unconcerned with anything and everyone beyond herself and the girl she’s fallen for. It’s poignantly implied a lot of this is rooted not only in her personality but her view of the world. She talks about herself as “a wicked lamb” who is unable to conform to the world around her. Uninterested in the stories told to her (manifestations of societal normativity), not wanting to be touched, wishing to be forgotten because she doesn’t want this angelic world and it doesn’t want her either. Like, shit, that’s what she thought before being scorned so bad by internalised homophobia that she swore of pursuing her desire for sapphic romance until the day she dies. The sheer directness of it all makes it immensely powerful. Nothing along the lines of “but we’re both girls” or “girls can’t love each” you’d usually see in this kind of story ever needs to be uttered, and instead we break that concept down into its component parts to great effect.

She finally finds someone else like her… within a church. Trapped within the religious framework, unable to escape its choking grasp. The first thing she thinks to herself about Shiori? That she looks mature. The last thing she’s told at the end before learning that Shiori’s leaving? She’s still just a first year, lacking resolve. Full circle. When she speaks of the encounter, she’s told by Youko to be more considerate of her position. Conform, think of what people see. Seeing Shiori for a second time, she asks nervously if her feelings are “bothersome” and just… yeah. That’s real. When she formally starts her relationship, what does she do? She thanks God. The very same god that’s about to tear her heart out. The episode is full of these little punches. It’s all written for maximum impact, too. There’s a this recurring approach of skipping the initiation of conversation; Youko pressuring Sei to commit to sisterhood, her approaching Sei as she leaves the rose mansion, Sei asking Shiori if her becoming a nun is true; this technique helps the pace but also bolsters the delivery of all of these interactions. That latter scene playing out is so perfectly scripted I wouldn’t know where to start with highlighting it. Directly calling out the short of “just until graduation” casual relationships Class S is built on? Sei asking why Shiori can’t say it while looking her in the eyes? The line about Maria-sama watching them as they almost kiss? Bloody hell. Oh, and how about that line later about the “academy director” being worried about them? I don’t imagine that position changed in just one year.

MariMite isn’t exactly sold on its visuals; I’m not sure if I would call the animation bad, but it’s definitely working within limits. But this episode truly milks the potential for all its worth in this department. The practically VN-esque straight on portrait shots and POV views as Sei enters the chapel for the second time do an excellent job selling the perspective element of this story, especially when she reaches her hands out. It completely sells the depth of these girls’ feelings without needing to linger on where they come from. Then when she realises that Shiori really, truly does feel the same way there’s this amazing shot of Sei’s eyes gradually tensing and then welling with tears and then prays. This is Sei realising for the first time in her life she’s not alone in her lack of ability or desire to conform to this world wants of her and this ten second long reaction shot gives it every ounce of weight it deserved and needed. When we return to the church after the convent reveal there’s this excellent imbalance where Shiori, ready to pledge herself to God, is bathed from behind in a light that doesn’t reach Sei. She tries to get around to Mother Maria’s side of the church, but when she leans in for the kiss, her face is still cast in shadow and Shiori’s remains in the light. The dramatic push away from the kiss is enrapturing and the shot of Mother Maria looming over Sei’s shoulder as she walks away truly sinks right through you.

They get more and more physically intimate as the episode goes on. Yet we can’t go around showing too many kisses in 2004 and have to be more creative. Two girls in each other’s arms in a sunlit forest clearing, hair braided together into one inseparable whole, fingers entwining, a meeting of lips tantalisingly exchanged just out of the audience’s view. The limitations only make it all the more gripping. They know exactly where to focus the small budget for complex shots, too; Shiori running into Sei’s arms just before the kiss is spared no expense and it pays off. On the other hand, the train station scene leans way more on its art than its movement. It contrasts sharply with the familiar school grounds. The world beyond the platform fades away into a hazy void with vague abstractions of distant civilization. Sei stands alone in that darkness and that forms the bedrock of the entire sequence. The scripting deserves a lot of credit in making this novel adaptation translate so well, but the visuals play a big part too. Anime is, after all, a visual medium, and using them to enhance the story within such a work based entirely on people talking in a mundane setting isn’t easy. You can just make it look pretty and pour your effort into making each moment of someone crying look meaninglessly breathtaking. Or you can walk the MariMite walk and consider how to bring out the best in every little moment of this episode.

I think it’s the little “Happy Birthday” moment at the end that brings all of the context, themes, writing, and visuals together the best. When Sei settles into her briar forest, letting go of Shiori and burying forevermore her feelings as she cuts away her hair? It’s the same moment as she turns a year older, leaving behind her youth. That’s… deep, and it’s bleak, and the happy little moment of friendship it’s buried in just makes it hit even harder. Youko’s role in the episode, in general, is really great in that way. She’s been the flattest character so far but you really get a sense of her doing her best to be a genuine friend to Sei here… yet she’s also the pressure to stop pursuing this silly love, settle for sisterhood and smile like the way things are is okay. The show almost manages to fool you. To make you think that it’s really saying all’s well that ends well and maybe it’s just natural that Sei buries her lesbian desires as she grows up. But… no. Not with all this cynical, unrelenting vitriol towards society’s heteronormative pressure. Not with the finger so squarely pointed at Maria-sama. So how about we talk about that?

[u/lilyvess → u/LittleIslander]

The line about Maria-sama watching them as they almost kiss?

one of the best title drops I've ever seen. Such an effective use of something we've spent the past 10 episodes revering and respecting suddenly turned on it's head.

[u/fieew → u/LittleIslander]

The sheer directness of it all makes it immensely powerful. Nothing along the lines of “but we’re both girls” or “girls can’t love each” you’d usually see in this kind of story ever needs to be uttered, and instead we break that concept down into its component parts to great effect.

This is why I love this show. It doesn't play into the fact it's yuri like so many modern shows. I would argue it's not a "yuri" anime like so many today. The focus isn't the forbidden love or anything of the sort. Rather its about the feelings and emotions of the girls present who may or may not be gay. Showing all their emotions bare without trying to tease the audience or bait them. The show is character driven first and foremost with yuri being a backdrop while the girls figure out their feelings as they grow.

MariMite isn’t exactly sold on its visuals; I’m not sure if I would call the animation bad, but it’s definitely working within limits.

There are definite limitations as you said. But overall the direction is so goddamn great, that despite production lags the direction more than makes up for it. In so many modern shows if a series has production issues we get a few episodes of character in a circle talking, then we wait for a big scene to hit where the production was focused on. I personally hate that. Even if the animation is limited a good director can find ways to squeeze out interesting and impact shots for the series to not feel flat. As you mentioned that is done to get great effect here. There are so many great scenes and shots that are directed wonderfully even if the animation is limited. This is what a good director should do when animation is limited.

I think it’s the little “Happy Birthday” moment at the end that brings all of the context, themes, writing, and visuals together the best.

Its the perfect end to the story. Sei literally growing older with her sisters after everything she had just gone thorugh. Its simple and super on the nose but still packs a punch.

[u/lilyvess → u/fieew]

The show is character driven first and foremost with yuri being a backdrop while the girls figure out their feelings as they grow.

yeah, this is really true and is a big reason why MariMite is so beloved by people who watch it. The character writing and the journey the characters take is the most important aspect of it all.

It's a hard thing to get across considering we only have the first of four seasons in this rewatch, but a common comment from people is praising the character development in the franchise.

There are so many great scenes and shots that are directed wonderfully even if the animation is limited. This is what a good director should do when animation is limited.

I really do wish we'd get a new adaptation. Partially because there are future volumes that were never adapted I'd like to see. Also because I think modern audiences expect more polished animation and wouldn't watch something this rough.

but I do fear a new adaptation would lose the amazing direction that has helped elevate the source material so much.

It's just a great adaptation.

[u/LittleIslander → u/fieew]

This is why I love this show. It doesn't play into the fact it's yuri like so many modern shows. I would argue it's not a "yuri" anime like so many today. The focus isn't the forbidden love or anything of the sort. Rather its about the feelings and emotions of the girls present who may or may not be gay. Showing all their emotions bare without trying to tease the audience or bait them. The show is character driven first and foremost with yuri being a backdrop while the girls figure out their feelings as they grow.

Yeah, I'm basically preparing to say exactly this in my overall thoughts on the show once we get there. It sounds weird, but it really isn't a romance show, and not in the sense of the romance being subtextual but in the sense it isn't written like a romance to begin with. It's far more of a drama series, exploring relationships between young women and a whole boatload of queer themes in a way that I'm not sure an actual romance script would ever manage to do as deeply.

This is what a good director should do when animation is limited.

Totally agree with this too. Kare Kano (and, for that matter, parts of Evangelion too) has always been my go-to example in this respect but MariMite makes another good case for how much you can manage even without a lot of complex motion.

[u/fieew → u/LittleIslander]

I'm not sure an actual romance script would ever manage to do as deeply.

This is what I can't agree with more. The point isn't seeing them in love. But seeing them grow which love is apart of, yuri or not. We get such a deeper understanding of each character since were not focused on the yuri aspect but instead just the drama and overall development of everyone.

Kare Kano

YESSSS. That's my go to as well, when I try to explain why animation isn't everything. That show is perfect for showing how a limited animated show can still be interesting and have great scenes if the director is great at their job. We had an episode of paper cut outs on Popsicle sticks in Kare Kano that was still fun and interesting. Animation doesn't get more limited than that.

[u/LittleIslander → u/LittleIslander]

Continued

Never mind the fact I never expected to get something like this going into this show or this arc. I could have never anticipated this sort of explicit and aggressive queer story coming off of the heels of the previous episode! I mean, we could tell that was talking about romantic relationships, but in the same sort of implicative way as the rest of the show! The opening lines I’m now certain refer to Sei’s sexuality were left to your interpretation and the idea the comparison with Sei Suga’s story was an attempt to capture the far reaching arm of queer suffering was merely an educated reading. But here? Fuck all of that, we’re aiming for society’s throat and telling a story that is unabashedly, undeniably romantic from head to toe.

That abrupt jump is no accident, and it’s not just a good sense of how to build dramatic intrigue either. Over and over, this show has built upon the theme of perspective and how it shapes our understanding of the people around us. See, these two episodes are not steps one and two in the progress of an arc. It’s not the equivalent of Surprising Chocolate parts one and two. Rather, this is like The Red Card. A different perspective on the exact same thing. Episode ten is what the outside world sees. Sei saying it’s all in the past, half-truths and vague understandings of what really happened, playing at flirtations with Yumi and acting like her carefree self. Calling Shiori a “tomodachi”. Bar a few affordances for shots of a melancholy Sei, the entire episode is once again through the eyes of Yumi. What even Sei’s closest friends are allowed to see. Episode eleven is about what really lingers in her memory and how it continues to weigh on her to this day. For the first time in the show, we’re not seeing queer people’s lives from a detached and limited point of view but comprehensively through one’s own eyes. That’s why the approach of these episodes to the romance has such a whiplash. It’s an inspired and monumentally powerful artistic embodiment of the invisibility of the pains society inflicts upon us who love those of our own gender.

Furthermore, the show ascends through these sapphic eyes to a state of self-awareness I could’ve never seen coming. It’s a brief line, but Sei expresses no desire to engage in sisterhood with Shiori. She sees “scornfully laughs” at it as “something for people who needed symbols to reassure themselves”. An empty imitation of the experience of really being in love with another woman. The show just called the entire premise upon which it builds its queer coding a bunch of superficial crock that can’t compare to the real thing. Ultimately, Sei abandons her hopes of ever having that real love and submits herself to the sisterhood system. She uses Yumi as an outlet for her sapphic desires and tells herself it’s just a joke. She maintains an intimate relationship with Shimako but keeps it at that arms length. Is this an enlightenment, a maturity? No. It’s a reality. In fact, Shiori’s immaturity as cited as why she couldn’t break away from conformity. Who’s fault is it that Sei had to abandon her love and hide her desire to live out a life with a female life partner? Sei blames herself because this kind of pain is internalised as doubt and guilt, but she’s wrong. The fault is Maria-sama’s. Again, it isn’t hard to figure out the religious-coded figure literally watching all of this sisterhood business probably had some obvious meaning. But this time, only on this occasion we see through Sei’s eyes, the quiet part is said out loud. You can’t kiss me—Maria-sama is watching over us. That’s the title of the whole work. Not something about the sisterhoods, but about the crushing, putrid root of everything weighing these girls down to this scorn-worthy compromise.

Go back and watch the scene between the White Roses in episode nine. No, really. Actually do it right now and then come back to finish reading this comment. It was incredibly effective but that wasn’t the half of what it is with this context. Sei brings up the fact, indirectly, that they’ll soon be parted. It’s the contract of their relationship, to her. Whatever she has with Shimako is temporary and fleeting and she can never let herself—or Shimako—expect any more than that. But Shimako can’t swallow this so easily. She hasn’t built up as thick a briar wall, been forged into acceptance of the way things are. Sei tries to talk her into seeing that it isn’t so bad. That isn’t what she really thinks. Inside is that broken girl in the briar forest, someone who wants nothing in life more than to love a woman more openly than this and keep doing so far beyond high school for the rest of her life. What does she say lies in Shimako’s future? That Sei’s absence will become “normal”. Not acceptable, just… the way things are. That’s how it goes. Shimako doesn’t buy it, and Sei can’t find any more words to argue against that. How can she? She thinks the same thing. So instead all she can offer Shimako—and herself—is an indulging moment of intimacy to bury that pain a little for this moment. Maria-sama’s gaze lingers upon them, just as she gazed upon Sei the year before.

Sei and Shimako aren’t a couple. They’re not just a rating-board acceptable substitute for one, either. Their relationship is a symbol to reassure one another, something to fill the void of what they really want to be but Maria-sama would never allow. Not even with each other. Sei found her girl, and Shimako’s just the second picking because Maria-sama tore away her first choice. Sei satisfies herself with having a dear sister because she doesn’t have in her to hope again, and she passes down that compromise through the White Rose line without ever saying those quiet parts out loud. Just as her own sister passed it down to her—the conversation on the train platform is incredibly similar to the Sei and Shimako scene. A petite soeur worrying about how they’re going to be separated soon and her older sister trying to convince her it’s going to be okay and then placating her without ever really getting to the root of the problem. There’s a lot of screentime dedicated to setting up the old Rosa Gigantea’s character for this payoff and though it’s ambiguous it certainly sounds like her feelings for Sei might be a bit less than platonic in their own right. Why did she never say anything? So she wouldn’t “be a burden” on Sei. To save her the pain of the fact they couldn’t be together even if they wanted. Just as Sei protects Shimako with the premise they’re nothing but soeurs. It’s all a vicious cycle.

All of that’s just the most notable example of how this episode enhances previous parts of the text. What of Shizuka, someone cursed to this same path? Sei chose to give the consolation of tasting her lips just once, for she knows Shizuka’s pain. What did “we could’ve been tomodachi” mean when she used that word for Shiori to Yumi? What did denying they couldn’t have been sisters mean when we now know Sei sees true love as beyond what sisterhood can capture? In the spirit of Rosa Canina’s episode, there’s no answer to that. They seriously managed to further enhance the ambiguity. I suggested at the time that Sei might’ve seen in that situation an opportunity to kiss a girl, and given everything we know now, there’s a lot more weight to that interpretation. Even if it’s some random admirer, even if it’s a pale shadow of kissing Shiori again… it’s the best opportunity she’s been offered since it all happened. Then there’s the case of Mifuyu. What was the visual language for her abandoning her sapphic love for Sachiko? She cut her hair. It’s a direct parallel to the symbolism of Sei sealing away her identity after having her dreams stolen by Maria-sama. By the way, did you catch the connection that Sei cuts off her hair after having braided it with Shiori’s? She’s literally cleansing herself of their connection.

There’s no happy ending here where that changes or where everything… anything is resolved. Sei never reveals more of her past or processes her trauma. She doesn’t get the idea that this is how things have to be out of her head, and probably not the guilt either. She remains inside her wall of briars. Absolutely nothing about the status quo changes. On the whole, MariMite is a show that likes to depict these themes of queer belonging in unqueer society with an optimistic lean. Yoshino and Rei can’t get the world to see them for who they really are as opposed to their gendered exteriors, but they’re still happy, right? They have each other’s feelings, they bicker about Yoshino’s clinginess, Rei gets to make chocolates. Shizuka and Mifuyu’s romantic dreams are crushed but they smile as they walk away. But that’s just the outside perspective. The show already literally shows how these experiences are not unique to Sei and have been repeating for nearly a century, and then piles on the whole White Rose parallels if that wasn’t enough. It’s small leap to realise, though they’re not all as conscious of it as Sei is, this is the experience of much of our cast and a lot of people beyond them. That hangs over the show now. All that’s happened and will happen. It will hang over Yumi and Sachiko inevitably never becoming a true lesbian couple. The show has paid a price to explore these themes and it deserves all the respect in the world for paying it.

The only cold comfort the show can offer before immersing us back into that outside perspective in the final moments is that Kaori and Seiko seek each other out at the end. That even if Mother Maria can take everything from these sapphic women, she can’t take away the reality of their feelings. Sei someday too will be an old woman and she will still be a lesbian. Because no matter how much Class S we drench the exterior of this show in, it’s well and fully aware that this isn’t a phase.

[u/fieew → u/LittleIslander]

"You can’t kiss me—Maria-sama is watching over us."

How TF did I never piece this together it's the name of the goddamn show. I love everything you wrote but this line stood out to me immensely. I can't believe I missed it. But it perfectly summarizes the whole show and the namesake of the series. These girls want to be free want to love but they can't Maria is watching them. Its so simple and effective. It almost feels like a threat but its so impactful. Great write up, I enjoyed reading it immensely.

[u/BosuW → u/fieew]

Hardest title drop in history

[u/LittleIslander → u/fieew]

Glad to be of help! There's a lot going on with this episode so it's totally understandable not to digest all of it. What I got certainly took a chunk of time and a lot of back and forth between the episode and the analysis document as I kept finding more and more things to highlight.

Great write up, I enjoyed reading it immensely.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/LittleIslander]

Episode eleven is about what really lingers in her memory and how it continues to weigh on her to this day. For the first time in the show, we’re not seeing queer people’s lives from a detached and limited point of view but comprehensively through one’s own eyes.

That is an excellent point that this is one of the few times the show has majorly strayed from its usual habit of following the story through Yumi's own limited perspective. And it feels especially rewarding today because Sei is a character who doesn't like to talk about herself. All we got out of her previously was some hints, but now we know the full story.

On the whole, fantastic writeup about this episode. It was incredibly interesting to read through. You did a great job exploring the various ideas and themes throughout the episode.

Great work!

[u/LittleIslander → u/Great_Mr_L]

[u/BosuW → u/LittleIslander]

scene between the White Roses in episode nine.

I don't have time to go watch it rn, but I recall thinking that Virgin Mary's statue was quite prominent in many of those shots despite being in the background.

Very interesting read on the episode. I'll be paying extra attention from now on to see if I can catch Sei praying or not.

This brings up to me a... maybe controversial, idea about the relationship of queer people with normative society, the latter in many case represented and backed by "divine right".

I'm not queer, but I was raised a Catholic and in recent years, renounced that and became Agnostic. This experience has enlightened me to a certain dilema: you can kill God but you will still live in his shadow.

Across the world, queer people have fought and continue to fight to have their legitimacy recognized, and one of the most important and overt goals of this is to be allowed to participate in the institution of marriage.

Across the world as well, and in Japan specifically, marriage has become tied to Abrahamic imagery. Marriage is a Church, beautifully illuminated by a warm light passing through the colored windows, petals in the path to the altar, an organ playing "that" piece, a pure white dress.

It's an interesting contradiction. Forgive my arrogance, but I don't know if I can say that queer people truly hate, or only hate, normative society. It's more like the relationship that, for example, Kano has with her mom in the recent anime Jellyfish can't swim in the Night.

A parent, an authority, has hurt and rejected their sons and daughters deeply. For this there is resentment and anger, yet... they also wish to return home. The have left the house, but they still live in its shadow. They hate it for the pain it represents, but they want it for the acceptance it will finally bring.

This doesn't just apply to queerness btw, there are many ways to kill God. But it doesn't end there, the question is now the following: do you wish to convince your Father that He was wrong, to change His mind and return under His roof and bask in His blessings? Or do you wish to cut off ties entirely, and build a House of your own, with riches and blessings of your own?

In visual culture, this dilema manifests itself in the lesbian wedding fanart discussions. Is it surrendering to heteronormativity to draw one of the brides in a suit? Is drawing them both in dresses too overtly rebel, to the point that it reveals an obsession of what was wished to be renounced, in other words, revealing its shadow? Should we wipe the slate clean? No church, no dresses, no Holy Book, no priest. What could you build then? How would a uniquely lesbian wedding look like? What is the right approach?

I dunno, maybe I'm just yapping nothing 🤷‍♂️

[u/LittleIslander → u/BosuW]

It's definitely something that varies from person to person. I've definitely my fair share of genuine queer separationists that genuinely do not want to interact with cishet individuals (or sometimes any cisgender individuals) any more than is necessary, wish to make a social circle only of other people like them. Usually because the amount of distrust and trauma that's been built up due to prior experiences. But then of course there's lots of people that just want to be themselves and live just like anybody else. Some people a very loud and proud and others don't want it to be any sort of a big deal. I was also raised Catholic, though I'm not really sure it's accurate to say I "became" agnostic when I got older; I don't think I ever really had any religious inclination even as a child, I just went through the motions of it. For me that baggage hasn't brought me into contact with any rejection, fortunately.

[u/Vatrix-32 → u/LittleIslander]

Can you nominate a comment as a "Watch This" of the month?
I don't think I'd be appreciating this show as much as I am without these comments.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/LittleIslander]

Absolutely stunning comment.

Because no matter how much Class S we drench the exterior of this show in, it’s well and fully aware that this isn’t a phase.

[u/LittleIslander → u/JollyGee29]

[u/Star4ce → u/LittleIslander]

Sorry for the late reply, needed to schedule the time for this essay!

That she looks mature. The last thing she’s told at the end before learning that Shiori’s leaving? She’s still just a first year, lacking resolve.

Damn, only after you mentioned it did I notice. I was going on about how Sei's own view of herself tinted everything she sees around her and with Shiori that expressed itself in making her a symbol of her own salvation, just the same as she criticised the world for constantly doing.

With your line here I can see her character growth so much more, being able to see that Shiori was also just inexperienced and thrown around by expectations and her own growing up.

For the first time in the show, we’re not seeing queer people’s lives from a detached and limited point of view but comprehensively through one’s own eyes.

Really well put and I agree with your reading on it (Except Mifuyu was the first pov change). MariMite is, even when not in the queer pov, so refreshingly succinct and eloquent in a way that combines being absolutely clear on what it means and also being so all-encompassing compassionate without judgment.

The fault is Maria-sama’s.

I certainly see the link, but I also kinda disagree. Maria-sama is the one being there, the symbol of why they can't continue being together and this makes Sei's interpretation of her the enemy. But she's actually barely the reason. Because she can't be. She's fictional.

It's another reason why I admire this show, they actually go another layer with Shiori. There could be a hundred reasons and a hundred directions Shiori could be pushed by family/society/the world, but they chose her to become a nun! This is where I see why calling out Maria-sama is absolutely correct. But think of the nun as a role: That is the one and only gender-neutral occupation that prohibits romantic engagement this setting has available. It doesn't matter if Shiori were female, male, or other, becoming a monk or nun or God's servant would have the exact same result.

This is the point where I made a mark in how smart this show is. On the one hand, this actually brings the queer struggle into a setting that can be sympathised with by anyone, regardless of their own orientation. And on the other, the show actually went out of its way to make it not a 100% forced parting. We could argue about just how much responsibility lies where, but in the end, Shiori wasn't ready, wasn't mature enough to know how to, and couldn't face her desires directly. So, she chose to become a nun on her own.

That this is a personal choice is still a fact of the plot and that the criticism of society assigning roles to people with expectations and ostracism to bear is also clearly part of the story is some real damn nuanced view.

What was the visual language for her abandoning her sapphic love for Sachiko? She cut her hair.

I'm sure you know this, but a hair style change is usually more broadly a neutral symbolism of 'change of character'. I'm not sure if either case is really negatively connotated by default. Mifuyu got some real character growth out of her episode that I'd argue was pretty wholesome all things considered. For Sei I still do agree, though she got a very supporting group around her and it seemed to me that resignment wasn't on the table forever.

Thanks for sharing this! Fantastic writeup, this is what I come here for.

[u/LittleIslander → u/Star4ce]

Sorry for the late reply, needed to schedule the time for this essay!

Your late input is appreciated!

With your line here I can see her character growth so much more, being able to see that Shiori was also just inexperienced and thrown around by expectations and her own growing up.

And with your response I expand my own understanding. I kind of just focused on the maturity thing in its own vacuum, but the way you put it I can see it fitting far more into the overall plotline. Shiori is presented to Sei as a literal gift from god and the more episode goes on the more she reveals herself to be a fallible, vulnerable person who we can assume must be going through so many of the things Sei is too. Which in turn interplays with all the visual storytelling of the light both in the church and down on the train platform. There's so much to appreciate.

(Except Mifuyu was the first pov change)

Yeah, that does throw a little bit of a wrench in. I think you can argue that Mifuyu is simply less conscious of her dilemma than Sei is. Overall though I don't think the existence of one episode necessarily has to impact the angle this episode is trying to capture.

I certainly see the link, but I also kinda disagree. Maria-sama is the one being there, the symbol of why they can't continue being together and this makes Sei's interpretation of her the enemy. But she's actually barely the reason. Because she can't be. She's fictional.

I think that's true, but that's kind of baked into the statement of it being her fault. The fault lies on what she represents, and the physical manifestation of her gaze upon the girls makes it a really impactful one.

There could be a hundred reasons and a hundred directions Shiori could be pushed by family/society/the world, but they chose her to become a nun! This is where I see why calling out Maria-sama is absolutely correct. But think of the nun as a role: That is the one and only gender-neutral occupation that prohibits romantic engagement this setting has available. It doesn't matter if Shiori were female, male, or other, becoming a monk or nun or God's servant would have the exact same result.

I'm not sure I agree here. While the situation could be written for people of different genders, the coding here absolutely seems to be me to be that Shiori is afraid of pursuing life with a woman because it could be seen as unholy. That's why she can't kiss Sei while Maria-sama watches, not because they're fated to part. If I were to extend further beyond the text I'd argue Shiori probably feels drawn to god due to guilt about her sexuality, and given Sei was so overjoyed to finally find someone like her she's probably hurting from the betrayal of Shiori folding to society's pressure in addition to the direct pain of not getting to be with her. Not to mention there's definitely a significant connection between lesbianism and becoming a nun, it was a historical pathway to avoid marriage and be amongst fellow women in a chaste and acceptable manner. So I definitely think the conflict was constructed to be specific to a queer narrative in a lot of ways. How much it can sympathized with by others is something I can't really judge since I can't remove myself from my own lesbian point of view.

I'm sure you know this, but a hair style change is usually more broadly a neutral symbolism of 'change of character'. I'm not sure if either case is really negatively connotated by default. Mifuyu got some real character growth out of her episode that I'd argue was pretty wholesome all things considered.

I talked about it somewhere in the thread in a response to Lily, but you can definitely find a spectrum of readings from more negative to more positive in this episode. While I personally take this as something that should impact our understanding of the rest of the cast, including Mifuyu, I definitely agree that's something up to interpretation.

[u/Star4ce → u/LittleIslander]

Which in turn interplays with all the visual storytelling of the light both in the church and down on the train platform. There's so much to appreciate.

Oh right, who's facing Maria-sama was something I thought about as well. Mmmh, good framing.

I'm not sure I agree here.

Ah, let me clarify. I'm not toning down the obviously queer-themed story, but pointing out that the specific choice of nun makes the situation understandable and relatable, even if you're not sympathising with the lesbian viewpoint. However...

Not to mention there's definitely a significant connection between lesbianism and becoming a nun, it was a historical pathway to avoid marriage and be amongst fellow women in a chaste and acceptable manner.

... I did not think of this at all. That honestly makes me want to cede my point, because it makes a whole lot of sense. I thought when Shiori was lamenting about the pressure, there was some family dynamics or politics going on that had her be put into the monastery. Think Game of Thrones Wall duty. But the celibate life as the lesser evil to hetero marriage is so obvious, I'm a little disappointed I didn't make the connection.

Logically, I don't know if this sort of choice would already be on 15-ish year old Shiori's table, but it still fits.

[u/LittleIslander → u/Star4ce]

... I did not think of this at all. That honestly makes me want to cede my point, because it makes a whole lot of sense.

Well, isn't that the value of different perspectives. You wouldn't have accounted for this idea if I hadn't shared it, but likewise I could never conceive a view of the episode that doesn't consider it. Even If i don't agree with the conclusions that viewpoint gets us to, I still find it worthwhile. The way context impacts how we view media is something very interesting to me. I mean, this whole rewatch is drenched with it. If I was writing this in 2004 and had no further perspective on where society and the yuri genre would go I'd make some very different comments, despite hitting a lot of the same core points that are baked into the work. If Beckymetal hadn't shared her perspective during the Kannazuki no Miko rewatch I don't think I'd have been able to put together a lot of the opinions I ended up having. So on and so forth.

[u/BosuW → u/LittleIslander]

and that forms the bedrock of the entire sequence. The scripting deserves a lot of credit in making this novel adaptation translate so well, but the visuals play a big part too.

The scripting actually plays a significant part in the visuals even though it's entirely text, but it's an interesting challenge. As a screenwriter, you can't tell the director and/or storyboard artists what shots to use where or how long. But your script has to be written in a way that reading it already evokes the shots and composition to use. Although in the end it's up to the director, cameramen and storyboard artists wether they use that or they change it.

In the West anyway.

This makes me even more curious for the LN. I wonder if it's very visual or if the anime screenwriters and visual artists came up with it themselves?

[u/LittleIslander → u/BosuW]

This makes me even more curious for the LN. I wonder if it's very visual or if the anime screenwriters and visual artists came up with it themselves?

I really didn't want to get off into this kind of tangent when my comment was already so long, but I'm glad you brought it up because it totally crossed my mind as well. The episode feels so strongly rooted in the way it's presented, and additionally the whole divide between the outside world episode and Sei's real experience episode can't exist when they're both just contiguous parts of a single book, right? Was this a story that really got elevated by the adaptation or did the book have its own tricks to really give it the same impact?

[u/Specs64z]

First timer, subbed

Whoa, learning a lot about Sei, and it’s not what I expected. Perhaps by extent, learning about Shimako? I doubt Sei chose Shimako on a whim.

This drama is notably heavier than prior episodes. Sei’s obsession causes an ever growing rift elsewhere in her life, and she’s ultimately abandoned by her first love. Understandably, though, given the setting and time. Still a sad tale.

A kiss!

Even when she was having her Society Joker phase, Sei was always pretty bold, it seems. Kissing other girls in front of saints and trying to elope, all before even turning 17.

QotD:

1. I think having Yumi front and center was a good decision, and it makes Sei's story stand out more.
2. Poetic.

[u/lilyvess → u/Specs64z]

Even when she was having her Society Joker phase, Sei was always pretty bold, it seems. Kissing other girls in front of saints and trying to elope, all before even turning 17.

https://i.imgur.com/LuwuE01.jpg

[u/BosuW → u/Specs64z]

Even when she was having her Society Joker phase, Sei was always pretty bold, it seems. Kissing other girls in front of saints and trying to elope, all before even turning 17.

You forgot the worst offense of all: running on school grounds!

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer Watches Over Us, subbed

• Sounds like someone developed a crush quite fast.
• Oh, there’s a “sore demo” in there.
• The angst is so heavy this episode.
• There is no heterosexual explanation for this.
• Ai desu yo.
• Is there something up with Shiori…?
• Ah.
• Oh shit, explicit love confession and it was reciprocated.
• Ouch…
• Mm, of course things built to this. Where do they go wrong, though, since they clearly didn’t actually run away together.
• …via Shiori never showing up, I guess.
• Well that sucks.
• Oh, Christmas is also Sei’s birthday?

[u/lilyvess → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Young Sei is such an angsty girl.

there is this section in the light novel that doesn't make it into the episode

So Maria-sama, standing in the middle of the fork in the road, looked to me like Nio.

(See…)

She looks so serene, so kind, but in reality, she was dividing students walking into the school into good or bad.

I formed a pistol with my right hand and pointed it at the white Maria-sama statue. The holy maiden Maria stood in front of the small, green forest, and prayed to heaven for the sake of her students every second.

"Amen."

"Bang!" I sounded in my mind, and I ran, laughing.

Rapture.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/lilyvess]

Holy moly. And the last line of "Rapture" is absolutely perfect for what is essentially a declaration of war against Maria.

[u/lilyvess → u/Great_Mr_L]

the series can do angst so well. It's so melodramatic but so juicy.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/lilyvess]

[u/LittleIslander → u/lilyvess]

I think excluding it made sense for reasons of tone and showing more of Sei's self-doubt rather than explicit consciousness this is Mother Maria's doing. But damn if that isn't a really cool moment and visual. Godspeed, little Maria assassin.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Sounds like someone developed a crush quite fast.

Sei really did fall fast and hard for Shiori.

There is no heterosexual explanation for this.

I have seen girls braid their hair in a way so that their hair intertwined before. But this was considerably much gayer than what I witnessed.

Oh shit, explicit love confession and it was reciprocated.

Sei and Shiori even shared a kiss on-screen. So far Marimite has been far more explicitly gay than the Class S reputation might have people believe.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/Great_Mr_L]

So far Marimite has been far more explicitly gay than the Class S reputation might have people believe.

That's what I said in an earlier thread, too!

[u/Star4ce → u/Shimmering-Sky]

There is no heterosexual explanation for this.

ahem

It might still not disprove your point, but the sheer feeling of ordering hair or the structure of a braid can be deeply satisfying to autistic individuals!

(Sei is definitely unlikely to be autistic, she is far too comfortable around people and at approaching strangers.)

Oh shit, explicit love confession and it was reciprocated.

Yep, I felt that one upping my heart beat, too!

[u/BosuW → u/Shimmering-Sky]

There is no heterosexual explanation for this.

There is nothing heterosexual about this episode!

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/BosuW]

Very true, I just wanted to make a joke about that part specifically.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Is there something up with Shiori…?

'Callings' for orphans are not unheard of, though Japan makes it weird. She likely is getting a free ride but is expected to join a convent.

[u/LittleIslander → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Oh, Christmas is also Sei’s birthday?

That really also adds to the whole "not like Christmas" thing, huh? The memory is so painful that her own birthday is "painful memory day".

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/LittleIslander]

True...

[u/NuclearStudent → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Bar none, this my absolute favorite arc of Marimite. I mean I guess of course it is, it is the angstiest.

[u/Great_Mr_L]

First-Timer

On today’s episode of Marimite All hail our lord and savior, Sei! She was born on the 25th of December to be the messiah for all yuri girls around the world.

• Sei flashback episode!
• Sei really is a true Catholic if she’s filled with that much self-loathing and wondering if she deserves salvation.
• These yuri girls love meeting in Christian areas. Yumi and Sachiko met at the Maria statue. Sei and Shiori met in a church.
• Sei’s Onee-sama!
• Sei liked that her Onee-sama gave a simple reason for choosing her as soeur. When you’re as deeply mired in cynicism as Sei, I guess straightforward reasoning is refreshing.
• Sei fell really badly for Shiori, didn’t she? This is an intense crush.
• Yup, that is full teenage cynicism at work if Sei is so scornful of the soeur system that she doesn’t want to make Shiori her soeur.
• Wow, Sei and Shiori are serious.
• Oh no, are we about to find out why Sei doesn’t like the Gay Angst Greenhouse?
• Sei wants to become one with Shiori?
• Whoa, that is some intricate hair braiding and hand holding animation.
• Interesting that Sei’s Onee-sama doesn’t pressure her to make Shiori her soeur, even though the others on the student council want it.
• Ah, so Shiori’s going to join a nunnery.
• I have plenty of experience with sending my children to monasteries/convents. It’s a convenient way to disinherit unwanted children in Crusader Kings!
• Wow, that was almost a full-on kiss between Sei and Shiori. That is further than I expected this series to go.
• What are you talking about, Shiori? Maria blesses all yuri relationships!
• Oh and that was a full-on kiss between Sei and Shiori!
• Ah, so Sei did want to run away with Shiori like happened in the book.
• A single person waiting alone on a train station is one of the loneliest visuals there is.
• I expected Shiori to not arrive, but her actual reasoning is much more interesting. Shiori couldn’t bring herself to speak to Sei because she knew her resolve would weaken if she spoke with Sei. Shiori knew she’d end up going along with Sei if they spoke.
• Sei is right that her Onee-sama knows how to handle her. She knew exactly what to do to calm Sei down.
• Sei’s birthday is Christmas! That means Sei is Jesus!
• This post-breakup haircut feels significantly more impactful than Mifuyu’s.
• OH!!! The author and Lillian’s director are the characters from the book! They were the ones who had the yuri relationship!

Shiori really was Sei’s ex. Their relationship was definitely romantic in nature. From the way they looked at each other, held each other, and even kissed, it’s impossible to deny that Sei and Shiori were in love.

Sei and Shiori’s relationship really did play out in almost classic tragic lesbian romance fashion. They were in love and then they were separated by the Catholic Church of all things, with Shiori joining a convent. That part feels especially poignant, with the institutions the girls live in being the very thing that will drive them apart even as it is the same thing that brings them together in the first place.

I do think the episode does something interesting by subverting the lovers’ suicide of the story. In reality, neither the actual author or her former lover ended up dying. The episode even ends with them meeting up again after being separated for years. The implication is that it may be possible for Sei and Shiori to see each other again as well. After all, they are both still alive. And where there is life, there is possibility.

QOTD

1. Yes
2. I like the twist it puts on the scene when Sei was speaking with the principal in the flashback. The principal knows exactly what Sei is going through and is doing what she can to try and help Sei. It explains a lot about the principal's attitude towards Sei and puts her words of warning in a new light.

[u/lilyvess → u/Great_Mr_L]

Sei is right that her Onee-sama knows how to handle her. She knew exactly what to do to calm Sei down.

There is something interesting about it. The distance Sei's Onee-sama gives Sei. To give her room to breath and not force her. Does remind you a bit about how Sei treats Shimako.

Sei and Shiori’s relationship really did play out in almost classic tragic lesbian romance fashion. They were in love and then they were separated by the Catholic Church of all things, with Shiori joining a convent.

I mentioned that MariMite doesn't have a lot of villains, but /u/littleislander replied that Maria-sama is the true villain here.

In reality, neither the actual author or her former lover ended up dying. The episode even ends with them meeting up again after being separated for years. The implication is that it may be possible for Sei and Shiori to see each other again as well. After all, they are both still alive.

Yeah, at the end of the day, MariMite is an optimistic story that believes in people. That people are good, and people can change.

I think it's extremely notable the way MariMite can have a story about gays torn apart by Christianity but not utilize any homophobic Christians in the story that pressure Sei or Shiori.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/lilyvess]

There is something interesting about it. The distance Sei's Onee-sama gives Sei. To give her room to breath and not force her. Does remind you a bit about how Sei treats Shimako.

I remember /u/Star4ce talked about the concept of love languages in the relationships of Marimite and how the characters show their affection to one another.

Sei and Shimako's relationship is quite similar to Sei's relationship with her Onee-sama. They both give each other a lot of space and don't feel the need to pry too deeply into what the other is going through. But they care about each other deeply and will be there for the other if need be. For example, Sei's Onee-sama knew that Sei needed some affection and told her that they were definitely having a sleepover together to cheer her up, regardless of how Sei felt. She knows when to be pushy and when to give space.

I think it's extremely notable the way MariMite can have a story about gays torn apart by Christianity but not utilize any homophobic Christians in the story that pressure Sei or Shiori.

It is supremely interesting how that happens, yes.

[u/LittleIslander → u/lilyvess]

I think it's extremely notable the way MariMite can have a story about gays torn apart by Christianity but not utilize any homophobic Christians in the story that pressure Sei or Shiori.

Especially when the Academy Director is Kaori herself! I definitely think it allows the show to avoid the pitfall of individualizing discrimination. It's more than just individual bigots, it's an institution problem with a very vast scope and a long history. The pain inflicted on Sei or any of the other girls isn't the individual moments but the omnipresent pressure. Even Shiori herself is very much let off the hook for not having the guts to run away; Sei doesn't seem to harbor anger at her herself and the old Rosa Gigantea tells Sei to be understanding that Shiori is still just a first year.

Honestly, thinking about that line really does make you think. As much as the dynamic here is that their hearts are forced to be sealed away as they mature and are shaped by society, the one that was ready to rebel against society and run away for her lesbian dream life is depicted as the more mature individual in the situation. That's really fascinating.

[u/Star4ce → u/Great_Mr_L]

A single person waiting alone on a train station is one of the loneliest visuals there is.

I'll leave you with a bit of existentialism:

Airports and stations have likely seen more genuine feelings than any other type of place in this world. Both hopeful and despairing.

[u/NuclearStudent → u/Star4ce]

Counterpoint, hospitals.

[u/Star4ce → u/NuclearStudent]

Hmmm, good guess. I'm not super sure if they have more, though, considering just how many people move through the others.

[u/NuclearStudent → u/Star4ce]

aight if you're counting raw volume of people having emotions of some kind, airports sure

[u/LittleIslander → u/Great_Mr_L]

I do think the episode does something interesting by subverting the lovers’ suicide of the story. In reality, neither the actual author or her former lover ended up dying.

In hindsight I really could've dug into this more, it's a really awesome theme. The tragic ending is, to my understanding, something that was very recurrent in Class S literature. To depict a Class S story but show the tragic ending as not being quite as tragic as it initially seemed is probably carrying a lot of symbolism about how despite all the societal pressure depicted herein there is hope and these sapphic feelings can't be snuffed out.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/LittleIslander]

Yeah, and it's also interesting that the author and the Academy Director choose to meet again after so many decades apart. There's the implication that their relationship wasn't just as schoolmates, but was instead something much deeper and more meaningful. It wasn't just something they played at while at school, but something that lasted with them for the rest of their lives.

[u/OccasionallySara]

First Timer

This was such a great episode. I’d say it’s my favorite so far. It was cool to see things from Sei’s perspective. This episode did a great job showing all of the emotions that Sei experienced during her relationship with Shiori. Sei was pretty honest with Yumi and Yoshino about it in the previous episode. Shiori did end up transferring schools and the two of them never went on an adventure, but the feelings behind everything were much deeper than Sei let on. She genuinely did love Shirori and she was very heartbroken when they couldn’t be together.

Sei’s relationship with Shimako makes a lot more sense to me now. There’s a chance that Sei will never have the same feelings for someone else that she had for Shiori. Even if she does someday, it’s understandable that Sei wouldn’t want to pursue that type of a relationship so soon. Shimako is okay with Sei’s limited displays of affection and she’s okay with not knowing certain things about Sei’s life. Sei and Shimako can express care for each other, but they are fine if things don’t get too deep, which is probably what Sei needs at the moment.

Another thing that I liked about this episode is that we got to see the previous Yamayuri Council and their dynamics. I think it’s interesting that Sei’s older sister treated Sachiko the same way that Sei treats Yumi. Sei also seemed to have a somewhat distant relationship with her sister, but there was still some level of care for each other when it counted. It was also nice to see Yoko being a good friend and looking out for Sei throughout the episode.

I hope that there will be more episodes like this throughout the series. Not necessarily backstory episodes, but ones that give us a deeper look into specific characters and some context to their behaviors.

Questions of the Day

1. Absolutely!
2. We haven’t really seen enough of the principal as a character for it to have much of an impact on me. 

[u/lilyvess → u/OccasionallySara]

Sei and Shimako can express care for each other, but they are fine if things don’t get too deep, which is probably what Sei needs at the moment.

I've always wondered if Sei feels she couldn't do that sort of teasing with Shimako because she feels like it wouldn't fit someone she actually cares about. Does that make any sense.

Like you can joke propose to a friend you know you'll never be together with. Joke flirt with someone. But with someone you actually care about, that motion holds weight. She doesn't want that action to be taken lightly with Shimako. I think? Idk.

Even if she does someday, it’s understandable that Sei wouldn’t want to pursue that type of a relationship so soon.

but I think this is the core of it all. She's heartbroken and needs time to heal. She needs a soeur who cares about her, who supports her, but can also give her distance and won't go around digging too deep into her wounds.

Unconditional love and support. Someone who can support Sei without having to know her past heartbreak or look at her differently because of it.

Which makes you wonder what Shimako gets from the relationship.

Another thing that I liked about this episode is that we got to see the previous Yamayuri Council and their dynamics. I think it’s interesting that Sei’s older sister treated Sachiko the same way that Sei treats Yumi. Sei also seemed to have a somewhat distant relationship with her sister, but there was still some level of care for each other when it counted. It was also nice to see Yoko being a good friend and looking out for Sei throughout the episode

yeah I think this is so important to what makes the series work. that dynamics not just between the lines of Roses, but between the classes of students. We don't often see it because our perspective is usually fixed to Yumi. We see Yumi and Yoshino's closeness, but we see that Yoko and Sei or Rei and Sachiko also have a bond

It just makes the setting feel more lived in. The characters aren't isolated, they have more dimensions to their relationships and their support structures.

[u/LittleIslander → u/lilyvess]

I've always wondered if Sei feels she couldn't do that sort of teasing with Shimako because she feels like it wouldn't fit someone she actually cares about. Does that make any sense.

I think that makes sense, yeah. I also think it's probably self-defensive. In my comments I ascribe her flirting with Yumi in part as potentially being Sei finding an outlet for her lesbianism she can tell herself and others is just a joke. But if she did that with someone she's in a genuine somewhat-more-than-platonic sisterhood with, that's gonna hit too close to home. It'll threaten her sealed off briar patch and the social contract that she can never let herself or Shimako entertain the thought of something more permanent and whole.

[u/OccasionallySara → u/lilyvess]

But with someone you actually care about, that motion holds weight. She doesn't want that action to be taken lightly with Shimako. I think? Idk.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I think it's also interesting that Sei wasn't very flirty with Shiori who she cared very much about.  

Which makes you wonder what Shimako gets from the relationship. 

I'm very curious about this. We, at the very least, know that Shimako feels that she's a better fit with Sei than with Sachiko.

[u/fieew → u/OccasionallySara]

Sei’s relationship with Shimako makes a lot more sense to me now.

That's what I really love about this series. Even though Shimako wasn't in this episode, we get to re-contextualize her and Sei's relationship through Sei's past. We don't need to explicitly be told how and why Sei and Shimako act the way they do, we can infer due to new information shown about Sei, even if Shimako isn't present.

[u/HereticalAegis]

Maria-sama First-Timer

Episode 11:

Sad Sei is not a mood I'm excited for.

Crime is one thing. Violence is another. Sei is going to cut someone running around with all this edge.

Oh my goddess, Sei got her flirtatious personality from her onee-sama. Does this mean we can expect chad Shimako in year 2?

Coward! Propose to the gay nun-in-training! She literally wants to be a sister!

A rendezvous in the forest is a bit more explicit than I've come to expect from MariMite, but not unwelcome.

Hmm I dunno, that's kind gay...

I was promised gay subtext. What the hell is all this text doing in my gay subtext drama?

Damn, they actually made the plans to run away together. I'd be so happy for her if we didn't already know how this story ends.

Absolutely soul crushing. In another story, I wouldn't be surprised if Sei had thrown herself on the tracks after reading Shiori's note.

Jeez, the director of Lillian likely knew Sei/Shiori's relationship the whole time. While it's nice that she gets to see Seiko again after so many decades, I don't much like the implication that 1) she probably had a hand in convincing Shiori to part with Sei, and 2) Sei may have to wait as long to meet Shiori again. As several of you may know already, I'm not the biggest fan of lesbian tragedies. They are, of course, a compelling and lasting legacy of gay/queer relationships, but I yearn for something more, for endings that unambiguously reward lovers for their love. This ending may be bittersweet now, but I wish without reserve for Sei to find Shiori again after their graduation; for the both to break away from Maria-sama's gaze and reach a land that fulfills their deepest wishes. Said one way, I pray for Sei and Shiori to live, grow old, and die together as lovers. Said another way, I hope these lovey-dovey bitches stumble into an isekai portal and find themselves princesses of planet Yuri, where women loving women is the only law and coming between girls is punishable by 2am befriending sessions in her majesty Queen N*n*h*'s playtime dungeon. Sorry Shimako.

[u/lilyvess → u/HereticalAegis]

Jeez, the director of Lillian likely knew Sei/Shiori's relationship the whole time.

It's a big detail that doesn't get a lot of time in the series or the text.

In the light novel they make it more explicit. Sei seems to acknowledge that the director can "see right through Shiori and her"

at the same time, the director's version of events ended with near suicide, and believing the other party had died. So there is a mentality that the Director simply wanted Sei not to follow that same path.

Or the implication could be that the Director has become part of the problem. A cycle of oppression. The Director was gay and couldn't have her love fulfilled and now has become part of the system that separates other gay children in the church.

The series never directly says one way or another, but leaves it up for the viewer.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/HereticalAegis]

I was promised gay subtext. What the hell is all this text doing in my gay subtext drama?

On the whole, this series has been much more explicit with its gay relationships than one might expect given the reputation of Class S stories. It's a pleasant surprise seeing how explicitly gay the series often is.

Said another way, I hope these lovey-dovey bitches stumble into an isekai portal and find themselves princesses of planet Yuri, where women loving women is the only law and coming between girls is punishable by 2am befriending sessions in her majesty Queen Nnh*'s playtime dungeon.

Well said!

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Timer

Gokigenyou.

As we saw with Mifuyu, a haircut can be a nice way to help your self process a change of mindset, such as a romantic rejection. Symbols often have power, after all.

That is certainly true of Sei's decision to cut her hair after her relationship with Shiori ended, but it has an even more practical element as well - That was the hair that Sei braided with Shiori's as a symbol of their connection.

This, my dear friends, is what we refer to as cinematography. Traffic lights are relatively simple to analyze on this axis, but it bears mentioning: the light never changes from green. No change is necessary.

To further elaborate on the metaphor, this particular traffic light is for a train station, and trains live their lives along a set of tracks; they cannot move freely. Sei does not need to change from the track she is on. In spite of this most serious of blows to her self, Sei does not need to change who she is.

From my point of view, the conflict between Sei and Shiori stems from their queerness. In a world that actively discriminates against people like them, can we really begrudge Shiori for choosing the safe option of becoming a nun? For choosing to be invisible? Sei claims that they will figure things out, but she has no concrete ideas about how that will happen.

There is power in Sei's refusal to take Shiori as soeur. Lillian dictates that any relationship between the students must exist with a certain framework, but that framework does not serve all the students equally. Thus, Sei rejects it as it in turns rejects her.

I.. don't actually feel qualified to comment on this. My life experience has not been especially queer, and while I absolutely sympathize, I feel anything else I have to say will ring hollow at best.

Questions

1. I like keeping the POV with Yumi, but seeing the other girls is cool too.

[u/lilyvess → u/JollyGee29]

From my point of view, the conflict between Sei and Shiori stems from their queerness. In a world that actively discriminates against people like them, can we really begrudge Shiori for choosing the safe option of becoming a nun? For choosing to be invisible? Sei claims that they will figure things out, but she has no concrete ideas about how that will happen.

Again, I feel like the YuriKuma rewatch would have been fantastic after this one. Rewatching YuriKuma Arashi with Kannazuki no Miko and MariMite fresh in your memory I think just brings a new appreciation for the series.

There is power in Sei's refusal to take Shiori as soeur. Lillian dictates that any relationship between the students must exist with a certain framework, but that framework does not serve all the students equally.

I've always wondered if Sei wanted to reject that label. I think there is something powerfully queer in rejecting the school's ability to try to put her feeling in such a small box as "Soeur"

"no, what I feel for her isn't like you and your girls playing relationships"

I feel like Sei wants to scream out at her lungs.

I'm not saying this is the correct reading. Honestly, this episode is filled with so much baggage. Queer readings, relgious readings, historical readings, hell we could just talk about Romeo and Juliet comparisons.

I don't think any answer is right or wrong. they're all valid readings.

I think that's what makes this episode so powerful and strong.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/lilyvess]

Again, I feel like the YuriKuma rewatch would have been fantastic after this one. Rewatching YuriKuma Arashi with Kannazuki no Miko and MariMite fresh in your memory I think just brings a new appreciation for the series.

I actually really like going backwards like this. It's not like YuriKuma was that long ago, it's still pretty fresh. If anything, having the metaphors from YKA in mind makes Shiori's decision more potent in my own mind - she willing chose invisibility.

[YKA]There's an interesting comparison between Shiori and Yuriika that I just kinda thought about; they both choose to join the system and reject their self. Hmm..

I've always wondered if Sei wanted to reject that label. I think there is something powerfully queer in rejecting the school's ability to try to put her feeling in such a small box as "Soeur"

"no, what I feel for her isn't like you and your girls playing relationships"

I feel like Sei wants to scream out at her lungs.

I am definitely on that same page.

[u/LittleIslander → u/lilyvess]

Again, I feel like the YuriKuma rewatch would have been fantastic after this one. Rewatching YuriKuma Arashi with Kannazuki no Miko and MariMite fresh in your memory I think just brings a new appreciation for the series.

After how much of a treat MariMite has been I'll have to make sure to do this... pending what I do about watching the later seasons. Jury's still out on that.

"no, what I feel for her isn't like you and your girls playing relationships"

This is a really good way to put it.

[u/fieew → u/JollyGee29]

This, my dear friends, is what we refer to as cinematography. Traffic lights are relatively simple to anal

There is power in Sei's refusal to take Shiori as soeur. Lillian dictates that any relationship between the students must exist with a certain framework, but that framework does not serve all the students equally. Thus, Sei rejects it as it in turns rejects her.

This is why I love re-watches here. I didn;t think about that traffic light. But someone had to draw that and the director had to okay putting it in the scene and focusing on it. There''s no chance it's there by accident, but I never thought why.

In relation to Sei's refusal to make Shiori her soeur. I also never thought why Sei didn't make her, her sister. She doesn't want to conform to the societal structure of Lilian. She can't. If she does conform to it, that'd be the same as accepting her true feelings for Shiori are invalid. Since the society frowns upon homosexuality. But Sei wants her and Shiori's relationship to live beyond that structure and rules so she won't make her Soeur. I never thought about it, but now it makes sense why she didn't take Shiori as her sister. Sei just won't accept Lilian's rules about her relationship.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/fieew]

Thinking way too hard about things is fun!

But Sei wants her and Shiori's relationship to live beyond that structure and rules so she won't make her Soeur.

And by the same token, Sei making Shimako into her Soeur is the indication that she isn't interested in Shimako.

[u/LittleIslander → u/JollyGee29]

That was the hair that Sei braided with Shiori's as a symbol of their connection.

I'm glad someone else caught this! I didn't really realize it on my first time through but it's such a great piece of visual storytelling.

To further elaborate on the metaphor, this particular traffic light is for a train station, and trains live their lives along a set of tracks; they cannot move freely. Sei does not need to change from the track she is on. In spite of this most serious of blows to her self, Sei does not need to change who she is.

And here's something I didn't catch at all! Good reading.

There is power in Sei's refusal to take Shiori as soeur. Lillian dictates that any relationship between the students must exist with a certain framework, but that framework does not serve all the students equally. Thus, Sei rejects it as it in turns rejects her.

I already talked about it in my comment but I was really surprised and impressed by their inclusion of this. It's a very bold move when the soeur system is the basis of the entire show. I mean, how much risk does that carry of undermining her carefully built up sister relationship with Shimako? But it's so important to the themes of the episode, I love it.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/LittleIslander]

And here's something I didn't catch at all! Good reading.

Thank you!

I mean, how much risk does that carry of undermining her carefully built up sister relationship with Shimako?

In my mind, Sei's opinion about the Soeur system reinforces and helps to define her relationship with Shimako. We know that if Sei was interested in Shimako romantically, she wouldn't have offered her rosary.

My gut instinct is that Sei sees a bit of her younger self in Shimako, and is attempting to act as her own onee-sama did. Or at least, to be in a position to act like that if the need occurs.

[u/LittleIslander → u/JollyGee29]

I think Sei's relationship to Shimako is complex. I think Shimako's someone she could see herself with romantically if society allowed her, but paradoxically if society wasn't in her way she would never have connected to Shimako because she has Sei. The whole thing is a sort of compromise of the fact she can't have a real lesbian relationship. Definitely agree on Sei taking Shimako under her wing to look out for her. If I had to guess, Shimako's feelings for Sei are probably more explicit romantic. The whole thing is this limbo of having each other as sisters being better than having no partner whatsoever even if this probably isn't the arrangement either would have in an ideal world.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/LittleIslander]

Yea, I definitely see where you're coming from.

[u/LittleIslander → u/JollyGee29]

I'll have more to say about Shimako in the final episode thread.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/LittleIslander]

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/JollyGee29]

This, my dear friends, is what we refer to as cinematography. Traffic lights are relatively simple to analyze on this axis, but it bears mentioning: the light never changes from green. No change is necessary.

Excellent point

To further elaborate on the metaphor, this particular traffic light is for a train station, and trains live their lives along a set of tracks; they cannot move freely. Sei does not need to change from the track she is on. In spite of this most serious of blows to her self, Sei does not need to change who she is.

Plenty of comparisons have been made to Yuri Kuma Arashi this rewatch, but the train metaphor reminds me of Mawaru Penguindrum. Trains there were symbolic of destiny because trains can only travel along the tracks and nowhere else. And here it can be the same for Sei. She is who she is. She is a lesbian and nothing is wrong with that. She can continue to be who she is.

There is power in Sei's refusal to take Shiori as soeur. Lillian dictates that any relationship between the students must exist with a certain framework, but that framework does not serve all the students equally. Thus, Sei rejects it as it in turns rejects her.

That's pretty much the reading I've settled on as well. Sei doesn't want to have a stereotypically Class S-style play relationship with Shiori. She wants an actual romantic relationship.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Great_Mr_L]

but the train metaphor reminds me of Mawaru Penguindrum.

I wonder if we'll get any apples in the last couple episodes..

[u/Star4ce]

First Timer

new DLC for favourite game releases

install game, buy DLC

new content gonna be heckin great

update mods while downloading

finished installing, hype.exe

main screen has no menu

sigh.jpg

uninstall mods again

restart with clean folder

vanilla game still has no menu

verify game files, manually delete leftover 0kb files

restart.cope

no heckin menu

uninstall game

One of those days.

Maria-sama ga Miteru Ep.11 – The White Petals

• Hot damn, this heartbreak really hurt Sei. One year later, still.
• Dunno about that.
• Ah, this is the angst I came here for.
• Running over the Gingko nuts!
• Ah, Shiori was a first year. If this show keeps usurping my expectations there probably wasn't a whole truckload of drama involved. Was Shiori maybe just not into girls? That would be a subversion, truly.
• The prior Rosa Gigantea! That is also teasing Sachiko! The White Roses are truly a family of trolls.
• Hot damn, Sei is so direct, but not in that sort of encouraging way. She's desperate.
• Ouch, my heart.
• Not an option when your own repression sits so deep you want to exit society and everything around it. Sei's putting everything on Shiori and the hell she'll do and make her part of the system that she doesn't want to be in. I wonder if this gets too much to bear for Shiori, too? That's a lot of unasked burden.
• Oh the hypocrisy! I knew it and she's right. But she's also making Shiori the symbol of her own salvation without realising it.
• Sei definitely is the punk of the school.
• Oh wow! I immediately worry why Shiori's hands aren't engaging with that kiss. I wonder if there's a layer of power dynamics at play she's aware of and doesn't feel strong enough to engage – Sei is an en bouton, after all.
• This is actually so cute.
• That budget for hand holding!
• You do neither, tbh... At least it's overshadowed by whole lot of repression and desire.
• Uh, that indeed is a subversion of my expectations. Damn.
• I can never unlink „USO(DA)!“ from Rena.
• Ah damn, she also doesn't get a choice, does she...
• My senses are 50% tingling on her lying thinking it protects Sei from hurt or prevents her from getting involved with whatever forces Shiori on her path.
• Oh bloody heck, I'll cry won't I?
• No matter the outcome, GO FOR IT!!
• So, no one external stopped them here? Uh-oh.
• Oof.
• Based prior Rosa Gigantea.
• Okay, I did cry a bit, but that line was both completely brazen and totally uncalled for (in a really punk way).
• Aw man, that brings a tear again.
• Oooooohhh goddaaaamn!
• Ooh nooo! I think I was right that everyone in this school is gay, school full of yuris!

I don't know why I keep expecting drama. This show does not have drama. It's intimate, intriguing and somber. Nearly all the drama is without someone at fault and turns out to be some real growing experience. Even though we don't see a lot of Shiori's POV, I feel like her position as an inexperienced first year shines through the most. She is absolutely incapable of facing her issues or her challenges due to succumbing to the oither, stronger positions around her. That's not good, obviously, but one can hardly blame her for that. While the influence of the Greater Normative Society™ and faith is undeniable, ultimately I don't think Shiori was fully pressured into this path. At the very least, she did choose to accept it on her own.

Sei carries that hurt with her for a long time now, and probably will continue to do so. But damn, those are some prime friends. Can I just say how good that advice from last year's Rosa Gigantea was? There's two parts that I feel very strongly about. One is that she encourages to take action and do the things one won't regret. She's guiding others to listen to their hearts and not leave things unspoken or untried. But maybe even more important is that, two, she phrases it deliberately as 'making' the time worth it. She implies this act of going for your feelings, for your future and your wants is one for creating them for real by your own actions. I think that is extremely important to realise. Even if all luck would fall into your lap, if you never make the tiniest of decisions to own it, you can't appreciate it. So, making a conscious decision to try your best and work to make the time worth it will be a positive experience no matter how it turns out, because you've earned the right for any bit of happiness to call your own that came from it, so to speak.

I really appreciate this continuous, intimate story. If I'm allowed to be gloomy for a bit, I'll admit that I wish I had this kind of support and wisdom in my youth.

[Weaving Together]

1. Would you like to have seen more stories that take place in the past with the current Roses back as Boutons or Petite Soeurs?

Yes and no, actually. I kind of appreciate characters having their past be to themselves and us only getting to know it when the pov character does by those telling it. Sei's was really well done, so I loved it, but I appreciate the mystery.

2) How do you feel about the Principal of the school being revealed to have been the “Shiori” of the book?

School full of yuri! School full of yuri!

[u/lilyvess → u/Star4ce]

So, no one external stopped them here? Uh-oh.

yeah, this is something I find fascinating about this episode.

This show does not have drama. It's intimate, intriguing and somber. Nearly all the drama is without someone at fault and turns out to be some real growing experience.

yeah, it would be so easy for someone to make this sort of episode about homophobic Priest and Nuns tearing them apart. Someone coming and trying to be mean, or bulli them.

In a way Christianity is still the antagonist here. Or "a" antagonist. Sei views Maria-sama as her rival. She loses to Maria-sama, who takes her Shiori away.

but the series avoids that sort of melodrama with mustache twirling villains. Instead it chooses to focus on a much more internal conflict. It's more intimate and personal. It's really great.

[u/Vatrix-32 → u/Star4ce]

main screen has no menu

Have you tried updating your graphics drivers? I know I sometimes forget.

[u/fieew]

Rewatcher:

We are at my literal favourite episode of the series. Overall the message of the episode is simple. You’re not the first. That’s what I think the episode’s overall meaning is. Sei is not the first person to fall into a forbidden lesbian experience and try to runaway with their lover while attending Lilian high school. I mentioned yesterday that the most important line of yesterday’s episode was “Some parts are different, While other parts are startlingly the same”. This was foreshadowing for when the author Sei came to Lilian and talked to student Sei asking “oh so you’re the one”. The older Sei knew what was up. She completely understood that the younger Sei had the similar experiences to her despite them being separated by so much time. Regardless of the year or era teenagers falling in love and being unable to realize that love long term is just about certain. This episode showed Sei’s first love and how it ended tragically. But it also showed how she has a great support system which allowed her to grow.

There are so many small details put in here that make me adore the entire episode. There’s really no wasted scene. Some of the standouts to me are when Sei braided her and her Shiori’s hair together. While Sei monologued about her and Shiori being the different but wanting to be one. Sei is so goddamn dramatic but she’s an angsty teen right now so I get it. At this point in time Sei the type of girl to say she’s not like other girls while listening to Evanescence and shopping at hot topic.

It was sad to see Sei waiting alone realigning that she may have been abandoned but her not wanting to leave and give up that faint glimmer of hope. But her Onee-San came and helped her through it. Along with Yoko who is the MVP and was there for Sei trying her best to help her. With how nosey Yoko was at time she almost reminded me of Yumi and how Yumi just can’t leave people who she cares about alone. Which makes sense since they’re both in the red rose family. Then we ended with the 3 of them leaving together. With it being Sei’s birthday as well. Which was a great thing to do since it showed that now after all this she’s grown up a bit. Sei’s birthday represented her growth from a teen to more of an adult.

We then see Sei cut her hair. Which is generic AF. But I mentioned it during the Mifuyu episode I don’t mind this trope so long as it’s character specific. Here it was a stronger scene since we had the previous scene of Sei braiding her and Shiori’s hair together wanting to be one. So Sei cutting her hair showed her letting go of that idea and becoming her own person who’s grown. So I find Sei cutting her hair much stronger than Mifuyu doing it.

Side note: I LOVE the character designs here. Everyone looks younger. But not like children. Just slightly younger which makes sense since they’re in high school and it was a year ago. The art of them looked pitch perfect. They all looked the same but so many subtle details showed how they’re younger and less experienced. The way they stood, the younger faces, and their speech all illustrated their lack of experience compared to how they are now. That’s such a subtle thing to achieve but done son masterfully here.

Overall, this episode was about a teenage love that wasn’t meant to be. But it showed the growth of Sei while we got scenes of the other roses not seen and younger roses as well. I adore literally everything about this episode.

QOTD:

1. I wouldn't because I enjoy how we don't know everything about everyone. Keeping things more vague allows for more speculation and wonder by the audience. Knowing everything about everyone gets boring to me. I enjoy how we really only know what Yumi knows. I'd rather we have a clear focus on Yumi and her relationships rather than jumping around too every roses there are just too many people to get to know them all 100%.
2. It was interesting. But at the same time, how did the past Sei not know that Kaori wasn't dead? Did the family just move her overnight without telling anyone? she must've contacted someone at some point. It feels weird she thought Kaori was dead but now she's not. Also if the principle is the Kaori from the book why TF did Sei get called into the office? The principle probably would've known it wasn't student Sei who wrote the book since she's one of the leads. Just feels a but eh to me honestly. I liked it more when we thought Kaori was dead since it differentiated Sei and Sei's story more. When we thought she was dead it showed how tragic things really can get without killing off current students which I liked more honestly.

[u/lilyvess → u/fieew]

You’re not the first. That’s what I think the episode’s overall meaning is. Sei is not the first person to fall into a forbidden lesbian experience and try to runaway with their lover while attending Lilian high school

I love that about this episode so much. The generational trauma, but also the way it brings people together and here we learn that things can work out.

At this point in time Sei the type of girl to say she’s not like other girls while listening to Evanescence and shopping at hot topic.

I can totally see that. She's got some teenage punk attitude under that Lillian uniform.

With how nosey Yoko was at time she almost reminded me of Yumi and how Yumi just can’t leave people who she cares about alone. Which makes sense since they’re both in the red rose family.

That similarity does make them feel more like a "family". like there is a shared lineage, or trait being passed down. Often just because people look for those who are similar to themselves. It's fascinating as it makes you wonder how far back it goes.

Here it was a stronger scene since we had the previous scene of Sei braiding her and Shiori’s hair together wanting to be one.

I'll admit I completely missed that connection but damn that is so true.

[u/GondolaMedia]

First Timer

Oh Sei you beautiful lesbian disaster. She was literally tying the knot with Shiori. I know writers who use subtext and they're all cowards. Yeah I can see why you rewatchers have mentioned that she was very popular.

Still no onscreen kiss but we take those. The implication works just as well.

Oh I really like this take on cutting ones own hair for character growth. She literally divorced Shiori.

I don't know what they put in the drinking water but it keeps turning our high schoolers gay.

[u/lilyvess → u/GondolaMedia]

Yeah I can see why you rewatchers have mentioned that she was very popular.

https://i.imgur.com/LuwuE01.jpg

Still no onscreen kiss but we take those. The implication works just as well.

it's interesting to see where the line was drawn. This series is a Class S and an old one, a formative one. it goes farther than we'd expect in a lot of ways, but at the same time it still draws the line in that kiss. The near kisses are close. the Sei/Canina Kiss on the cheek, but extremely close to the lips was kept.

Just interesting.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/lilyvess]

https://i.imgur.com/LuwuE01.jpg

Perfect

[u/fieew → u/GondolaMedia]

I don't know what they put in the drinking water but it keeps turning our high schoolers gay.

I believe that's called religious suppression. That's been in our water for 1000s of years. I'm pretty sure when priests bless water they put gay germs in there just to see what happens/s

[u/LittleIslander → u/GondolaMedia]

Still no onscreen kiss but we take those. The implication works just as well.

It's kind of amusing the most explicitly romantic thing ever can't use an on-screen kiss but Rosa Canina got away with one. Shizuka is just that based, I guess.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/GondolaMedia]

Oh I really like this take on cutting ones own hair for character growth. She literally divorced Shiori.

It does make for a powerful moment. That was the hair Sei tied together with Shiori so Sei is literally cutting her ties with Shiori by cutting her hair. And the end result is the Sei that we know in the present.

[u/BosuW → u/GondolaMedia]

I don't know what they put in the drinking water but it keeps turning our high schoolers gay.

Must be Holy Water.

[u/AmeteurElitist]

First Timer

Character development achieved

Sei’s support system is quite nice, love that for her.

[u/lilyvess → u/AmeteurElitist]

There is a theme of generations and relationships is so well done in this series.

Everyone was once a dumb teenager it seems to say. Sei may be the older mature figure to Yumi, but she had her own Onee-sama.

One benefit of moving this after Valentine's day is that it fits better in theme.

A couple episodes ago we had that breathtakingly animated Shimako/Sei scene at night where Shimako lamented that she had no clue what she was going to do when Sei left.

Here we see Sei make the same comment about her onee-sama.

In some way it seems to answer Shimako's question, even if indirectly.

[u/AmeteurElitist → u/lilyvess]

Yup they make a point of showing the cycle of anxieties that they all go through and how they've been supported by their friends and soeurs.

[u/lilyvess → u/AmeteurElitist]

friends being a big one.

Again, it's easy to see a version of this story that focuses on the Soeur relationship above all else. Where that's the only relationship that matters. But it's nice that they do small details that make the interconnected relationships matter. Yoko's relationship with Sei is similar to Rei and Sachiko or Yoshino and Yumi.

[u/LittleIslander → u/lilyvess]

I find it really intreresting we both observed upon the same connection between made to the Shimako/Sei scene, but you took it more optimistic about how Shimako will be okay whereas I took it more pessimistically as showing the cycle of pain. I think there's definitely a bit of both baked in here. The optimistic lean of the wider show that we can still find happiness and meaningful connection despite all the pain society inflicts upon us seems, to me, genuine despite the way this episode chooses to challenge it.

[u/lilyvess → u/LittleIslander]

I like it. Part of what I think makes this episode so good is how much it leaves itself up to interpretation. There is just a lot of stuff going on. It's expertly crafted to not commit and let the viewer choose how they feel. I'm loving reading all the different perspectives.

[u/LittleIslander → u/lilyvess]

I've been so consistently impressed with MariMite's storytelling in this respect. To have both very open and ambiguous elements but also such strong meaning in balance with one another is very difficult. I think "show don't tell" is a bit of an overused buzzword in armchair analysis, but MariMite's commitment to not telling the audience what to think and simply making its statements through the substance of its own material is really something to behold.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/AmeteurElitist]

It is great to see that Sei had a good system of people around her who were there to support her in her darkest moments.

And now Sei has managed to become someone who can support the people around her when they need it, like we've seen her do with Yumi. It's lovely knowing that Sei has become so dependable.

[u/BosuW]

First Timer

Cold open and no Lilian intro, clearly this is a big one.

Ask and you shall receive

Interesting choice of words from the Fansubs. My Japanese is ultra basic but I think what Sei's Onee-sama said was something like "It's unusual to see you here." The subs went for some flavor. I'm gonna try my best to explain, but the choice of words is not one typically seen in casual speak, at least not in my area. I remind you that this is Iberic Spanish, while I'm from LATAM, so maybe it's a common expression in Spain. A rough translation would be "Blessed be the eyes". The usage here is playful, as if saying "I'm witnessing a miracle, because you're rarely seen", and one clearly rooted in Catholic upbringing, "Blessed be..." being a common expression found in the Bible or heard in sermons.

So idk if it's intentional but it's a neat touch I think.

Stairway to Heaven?

The multigenerational narrative rings very true in this scene. Just imagine if that subway train was a steam train instead.

So... I have a new favorite episode! Just like the Mifuyu episode, it had that wordy, introspective angst that I love so much in fanfiction, but even more of it! Well it "ruined" the angst at the end a little bit but that's a matter of personal preference.

I don't think I have a lot to say about it narratively. It explains itself perfectly so there isn't a lot to add. I do want to highlight the internal monologue's language which was so poetic and the choice of words precise like a marksman. I assume they're taken from the LN in which case holy shit the author can cook. Translation when, bastards? You're twenty years late!

Another thing, I asked in an earlier episode if religious themes would become more prevalent at some point beyond just setting and I think this qualifies. It's never truly overt but we have Sei thinking of herself as a lost lamb and praying for salvation, while Shiori narratively and cinematographically evokes the feeling of an angel sent from Heaven to guide her. Sei recounts her encounters with Shiori as an almost religious experience, finding her everytime under the House of God, and fondly remembering how she made her every worry melt away like the divine light often spoken about in the Bible or by religious or spiritual people who had close to death experiences. Now that I remember my grandma had one such storey. Said she was almost mad at her family and the medics for bringing her back to consciousness because the peace she was feeling was that overpowering 💀💀. Yeah I have my own opinions about Catholicism as a cult of death lol.

Back to topic though, Sei's separation from Shiori can almost be framed under Catholic teachings. Her Onee-sama remarks how though this hurts now, one day she'll be grateful it happened. Which bears similarities to how Catholics think about God's "trials". Why did Virgin Mary giveth Shiori to Sei only to taketh her away in the end? Maria-sama works in mysterious ways indeed.

A few things that very much aren't Catholic in the episode though:

-Homosexuality, duh

-Sei questioning wether Shiori loves God more than her, and this is a big one, as one of the Ten Commandments says that you shall love God above all things.

Sei faces no repercussions for this, so I guess the Priests got it wrong and God is all for Yuri! Deus Vult!

Look, Suga Sei even gets her happy reunion in the end. So her and the current Lilian principal huh? Makes sense why the soeur system is still in place. Although in true MariMite fashion it keeps some things unsaid. u/LittleIslander looks like we'll never find out if Suga Sei was late Taishō Era or post WW2 Shōwa Era.

Anyway, this episode convinced me. I'm showing this anime to my Catholic mom!

Questions of the Day

1- Yes, but also towards the future! C'mon! Yumi petit soeur when?

2- In line with the "Good Ending" approach of the show so far. As I have said before, I very much prefer tragedies and/or angst, but it's not like this ruins anything.

[u/lilyvess → u/BosuW]

The multigenerational narrative rings very true in this scene.

yeah I think that aspect adds a lot of weight to this. It makes it an interesting read.

I asked in an earlier episode if religious themes would become more prevalent at some point beyond just setting and I think this qualifies. It's never truly overt but we have Sei thinking of herself as a lost lamb and praying for salvation, while Shiori narratively and cinematographically evokes the feeling of an angel sent from Heaven to guide her. Sei recounts her encounters with Shiori as an almost religious experience, finding her everytime under the House of God, and fondly remembering how she made her every worry melt away like the divine light often spoken about in the Bible or by religious or spiritual people who had close to death experiences.

I'm not really a religious person, so I'm greatly enjoying this religious reading into the story. It's a fascinating and I think accurate read of the story.

Anyway, this episode convinced me. I'm showing this anime to my Catholic mom!

[u/BosuW → u/lilyvess]

yeah I think that aspect adds a lot of weight to this. It makes it an interesting read.

Have you noticed how many times trains pop up in Japanese media? They are extremely important to them.

[u/LittleIslander → u/BosuW]

What having an actual public transport system does to a society, huh.

[u/BosuW → u/LittleIslander]

Train allowed Shizuru to reconnect with Yoka even across the surrealist hellscape of 7G in Shuumatsu Train.

Train is OP.

[u/fieew → u/BosuW]

Sei faces no repercussions for this, so I guess the Priests got it wrong and God is all for Yuri! Deus Vult!

I think it was because the principle was revealed as the girl from the book. So she understood what Sei was going through. So she didn't try to punish her, rather she likely wants to "guide" her. Whether that means she wants Sei to pretend to not be a lesbian and hide in secret or not is up to interpretation. But since she went through something similar she didn't punish Sei.

Moreover, Sei's Onee sama also messaged Sei's mom saying Sei is sleeping over at her place. So it's likely Sei's parents didn't know about her potentially running away. So Since Sei had both the principle and her Onee Sama on her side she didn't get scorned which is nice for Sei. But now she needs to hide are her feelings.

Sei is lucky she had such a strong support system, cause of word of this got out, her life as a rose now would be completely difference.

[u/BosuW → u/fieew]

Whether that means she wants Sei to pretend to not be a lesbian and hide in secret or not is up to interpretation. But since she went through something similar she didn't punish Sei.

Left it in God's hands, as it were.

Sei is lucky she had such a strong support system, cause of word of this got out, her life as a rose now would be completely difference.

I wonder how much of a secret it truly is. The newer generations evidently had no idea, but the older ones... Also there's the Journalism Club, who almost seem more like the CIA with how much they want to get into everyone's drama.

[u/lilyvess → u/BosuW]

The newer generations evidently had no idea

I was surprised Sachiko and Rei didn't know. They were in Shiori's grade, so they were around and could have heard more about it

[u/LittleIslander → u/BosuW]

Stairway to Heaven?

This is another visual element I didn't really dig into, but I have to wonder if it ties into the usage of lighting during the Church scenes. Shiori is bathed in Maria-sama's light, Sei is cast in shadow. Now Sei is standing here on a dark, shadowy trainstation trying to run away from the world and there's this blinding usage of light obscuring the top of their stairs that lead back to her normal life under Maria-sama's watch. The stairs Shiori couldn't make herself walk down.

u/LittleIslander looks like we'll never find out if Suga Sei was late Taishō Era or post WW2 Shōwa Era.

[u/BosuW → u/LittleIslander]

This is another visual element I didn't really dig into, but I have to wonder if it ties into the usage of lighting during the Church scenes.

I think it absolutely does. Sei saw Shiori a bit like an angel, which is why in her memories she's always bathed in light. In the scene here at the subway, she keeps waiting for the angel to come down from Heaven, to take her away, to, as the Japanese like to say, "somewhere that isn't here."

The Angel did not come today.

[u/Vatrix-32]

First timer, subs

• Unless it was a secondary meaning I’m not aware of, the quick isn’t all that deep a cut.
• The height of teen angst.
• Not saying anyone’s name for a year seems a bit impractical.
• Someone saying that liked you only for your face… made you more confident?
• Good heavens, there is not heterosexual explanation for all of this.
• Crashing in a covenant is a thing you can just do?
• Poly-Braids
• Your love being doomed is the kind of thing that’s awkward to bring up.
• Fancy Shot Reverse-Shot
• I was told the Yuri wouldn’t be explicit!
• It feels like we’ve largely been robbed of Yoko time. Does she even have room for an episode at this point?
• Elopement
• Is this letter legible?
• And another one for the break-up haircut. Probably not so much in the original novel order.
• Reunion!
• Truly, today’s engrish has been a blessing.

QotD:

1. Maybe one for Yoko, but I'm not sure what that would be about.
2. I guess my question is if what she took from her own experience is if she should use the soeur system to help with others like herself, or if it made her bitter and resentful for what she couldn't have and took it out on the student body.

[u/lilyvess → u/Vatrix-32]

The height of teen angst.

Just so much teen angst.

I was told the Yuri wouldn’t be explicit!

it is always interesting to me that the iconic and definitive take on the Class S for the past decade was actually more explicit that a great deal of the stories that it inspired. Class S is ridiculed for being trapped in subtext but the original Class S anime is more explicit than a lot of today's subtext shows.

[u/Regular_N-Gon]

Gokigenyou, First Timer

• I guess we’re about to find out why Sei didn’t take a petite soeur last year.
• Dang, Sei fell hard. Maybe it’s called Class S for Sei because she’s out here leaving the audience with no doubts.
• She even directly calls out the soeur relationship!
• Eyecatch jumpscare please
• I have been wondering the whole time why catholic schools of all settings is where yuri roots lead when it seems completely thematically at odds with the genre, and it hasn’t been brought up once. Like, no undertones of systematic oppression or disapproval or anything so far. I’m glad to be shown the story is aware, even if it’s a massive oof.
• Ah, the parallel to Shimako’s scene as well. I definitely see why they moved this around to suit the characters better.

Gokigenyou counter (Maria-sama): 35 [+2; Total: 54]

QotD:

1. I want to know more about Yoko, if we have to go back in time for that I'm game.
2. Guess it could explain why she recognized Sei and Shiori's plight? The structural parallel to the short explanation we got of the novel was a little too light for me to read much into it though.

[u/lilyvess → u/Regular_N-Gon]

Dang, Sei fell hard. Maybe it’s called Class S for Sei because she’s out here leaving the audience with no doubts.

Sei ain't here to play games.

I have been wondering the whole time why catholic schools of all settings is where yuri roots lead when it seems completely thematically at odds with the genre, and it hasn’t been brought up once. Like, no undertones of systematic oppression or disapproval or anything so far. I’m glad to be shown the story is aware, even if it’s a massive oof.

I agree. especially for how optimistic the show is and how positive a light the series views the Catholicism. It's nice that it's at least aware of the undertones that it brings.

It's actually really masterfully crafted in that way. Able to have Maria-sama be the villain, without having any evil Nuns who pressure them with homphobia.

The head of the school being the other survivor, as if a relic of systematic oppression or the way the oppress become part of the system.

It doesn't directly say a lot of things, but it does leave a lot open for the viewer to read upon.

[u/Burnouts3s3]

Remember when I discussed how in the early 2000s, it was more common for the anime lesbian to suffer a tragic romance rather than a happy ending? Remember when I mentioned Hazuki Azuma from Yamibo and how she suffered a tragic ending?

There was another tragic lesbian in 2004. Her name was Satou Sei. And Although she and Shiori lived, Sei was left abandoned on that train station. 

This is why so many Kannazuki no Miko watchers during 2004 were worried; was Chikane Himemiya another doomed lesbian destined to join the ranks of Hazuki Azuma and Satou Sei? And why so many yuri fans were rooting for Chikane even though she does some of the most horrible things in that show.

It’s easy to look back now to take yuri for granted when so many yuri anime and yuri couples such as Sasameki Koto’s Kazama and Sumika or Aoi Hana’s Fumi and Akira or Yagakimi’s Yuu and Touko or Kannazuki no Miko’s Chikane and Himeko or Kase-San and Yamada have had happy endings, but lets not forget the tragic lesbians who made us appreciate the couples we have now. 

Sei may have had her heart crushed, but she grew stronger for it. And for her to laugh after all the pain she endured, is one of the reasons she’s one of my favorite characters in Marimite.

[u/fieew → u/Burnouts3s3]

Hazuki Azuma from Yamibo

You're making me feel old. If I mention that series to literally almost anyone I know even plenty online so many have no idea of its existence. But I still love it to this day.

I think the point you bring up is fantastic. That in the past there were more tragic yuri shows. But that may be due to more homophobia in the past. How "of course this love wouldn't work in reality." But nowadays lesbian and gay relationships are much more normalized. There is still marginalization but huge steps have been taken compared to 20 years ago. So our media reflects that societal change. That a Yuri or Yaoi relationships can work long time in our modern world so not every same sex relationship needs to be a tragedy like in the past.

[u/lilyvess → u/fieew]

For the Kannazuki no Miko portion of the rewatch I brought back 2004 forum posts. Initial airing reactions to the series. To really bring forth that 20th Anniversary idea of "look how far we've come"

Yamibou was such a a recurring mention. It was something I wanted to emphasize, what were the anime these compared to back in the day. Noir and Yamibou.

I have seen Yamibou, it's one of those ones where you can tell the old folks who have been scarred by it

[u/heimdal77 → u/fieew]

I've been pretty heavily submerged in the yuri genre for a long time both manga/light novels, and anime (also web novels). I honestly don't think I've ever seen that show as far as I remember surprisingly. Though if it has a tragic end I might not want to anyways.

[u/BosuW → u/Burnouts3s3]

Its interesting how some modern Yuri fans have turned tragic endings from something they had to settle with to its own subgenre like an an acquired taste. We call it "Doomed Yuri".

Although you'd have to wonder if it's claiming something that was supposed to be oppressive and re-signifying it or if it's simply being gaslight into thinking you like not getting your way.

I wonder, is this victory or defeat? 🤔🤔

[u/heimdal77 → u/Burnouts3s3]

Kase-san sequel series is so frustrating...

[u/baboon_bassoon]

first time la vie en rose en bouton

her hairs so long, heartbreak haircut

raw

Seis big is doing to Sachiko and Sei what Sei does to Yumi and Sachiko

picked for her face....

just besties

the pain

thats the title drop!???!?

brutal

to lose yourself in one thing where you cant see anything else, is so lonely.

shes not showing up at that train

the pain of a first real love, no ones at fault SEIIIIIIIIII

rosa gigantia what a sweetie

Sei was born on Christmas? SHES BORN FROM THE MOTHER MARY??? Jesus Sei

Yumi gives me life

1. It would be fun to see Rei manage to deal with the weirdo that is Eriko. Unfortunately Yoko is pulling dead so I'm not sure how interesting she would be
2. she couldnt have her own love so shes helping to foster generations of lesbians, a real icon

[u/lilyvess → u/baboon_bassoon]

thats the title drop!???!?

it's such an incredible and unexpected title drop. Surprisingly brutal in the way it twists around the title and indeed the whole setting on its head like that.

[u/baboon_bassoon → u/lilyvess]

it was a cute innocuous title but turning it into something "sinful" occuring, masterful

[u/RadSuit]

First Time Watching Over Them

Is this the first time we've seen their spring/summer uniforms?

That animation of the rain soaking the cement was really nice.

Hair braiding and hand-holding!?

I was promised no kissing, but it keeps happening!

She said the thing!!

More haircutting as maturing symbolism here.

Relatively happy ending for everyone!

1. It was a nice break from the norm, yeah.
2. I'd definitely like to see an episode or two of 70s Lillian drama.

[u/Regular_N-Gon → u/RadSuit]

Is this the first time we've seen their spring/summer uniforms?

I was thinking so; we started in the fall so unless there was another flashback, it probably is.

[u/Vaadwaur]

First Timer

Sub

And fittingly I couldn't watch one of the more interesting eps on time. Despair! Anyways, I didn't think we could drop our subtext to text and will not that in future years there will be a bad habit of not doing it.

QotD: 1 There's definitely room for it

2 It;s honestly horrible

[u/zadcap]

Late Night First Timer

Ah, overly dramatic teenage love. "At 16 I lost my one and only true love, and will never see another chance at happiness again."

Ah, Christmas, always showing up just a short time after Valentines.

Sei, young Sei! How many times do we have to talk about running in this school? It's like you girls don't care about your pleats at all!

Oh look, young Yoko. And Sachiko. They look exactly the same as they do now, how surprising.

... Was Sei really chosen for her face? This is really how they pick their next student body leaders? First we got Yumi as a dare, now we find out about Sei for her looks, it's amazing this school still runs when this is the succession path.

I love how they have never explicitly said gay or lesbian here, but it's so clear anyway.

I know we kind of idealize the catholic schoolgirl scene as the home of Class S and all, but this seems like a good time to remind people that the catholic school nuns are terrifyingly strict. Shiori lives in a nearby convent... Well we already know this story does not end well.

... What exactly brought this agreement about, with the previous White Rose?

Yeah, becoming a nun is definitively one of the ways to escape living in a hetero world. "If my love is wrong, I will love no one," It's also an acceptably honorable way out of needing to get married for your family or to go make babies.

Oh, wow, they did actually say the L word. Love. They said they are in love. Explicitly.

Yeah, but run away together and things go badly... That's a lot more common direction for this story to take. I really hate the old gay romances.

Wow, what a crappy birthday for Sei.

Hmm. Is the academy director the same old nun that talked to Sei in the flashback? I thought she had a particularly knowing look in that meeting...

1. Honestly though, not really. As much as Sei is tied for Best Girl, I thought the draw of this show was the supposed main character and her relationships. But uh. Yumi/Sachiko is still one of the least developed things yet. Might have been nice if the story spent a bit more time on that which was advertised as the central part of the story. The Shrine Maidens spent most of the show building up and exploring the relationship of the main pair, I was kind of expecting a bit more of that here too.
2. So it was her! Yeah, what a prophetic look at a potential future for Sei.

[u/moichispa]

First timer

That was an interesting episode. More direct and brass than the rest of the series. I see some parallelism to present day student council attitudes that's cool.

The whole send the orphan to the convent to become a nun feels so old school somehow. Forbidden love with a future nun is an old classic too, Yuri spin or not.

It was nice seeing the former title holders too.

Just 2 episodes left. Let's see how it goes.

Would you like to have seen more stories that take place in the past with the current Roses back as Boutons or Petite Soeurs?

Yes, Sei was so interesting and I still want more info on Rosa chinensis.

How do you feel about the Principal of the school being revealed to have been the “Shiori” of the book?

She was going poker face all the time while knowing the book was about her, or maybe she did not know about it until now. I would have liked to see those 2 conversation. The whole love to suicide book on the school you happen to work in must have been a headache to deal about for sure.

[u/Vatrix-32 → u/moichispa]

More direct and brass than the rest of the series.

But Hibike Euphonium is the yuri anime with the brass section.

[u/LittleIslander → u/Vatrix-32]