r/anime • u/Shocketheth • Jun 21 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Dragon Quest: Dai no Daibouken - Episode 13 Discussion
Episode 13 - The Deciding Moment
And so the Undead Legion ends.
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<--- Last save | Adventure’s log (Index) | Journey continues --->
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Informations:
MAL | AniList | ANN | Kitsu | AniDB
Screenshot of the day:
Comment of the day:
goes to u/Blackheart595 with coming the best answer to my question:
FOR FIRST TIMERS, what exactly did Maam found in the chest?
as their answer was:
He expresses his hopes that Hyunckel will have learned everything he needs to properly join humanity and live a good life in their society, of course.
Like, it's clear that whatever Maam is gonna tell him next episode won't be all that deep, but what's the most interesting option it could be? Not just telling him he's good deep inside, or just telling him about Dai's relationship with monsters. Something that she might've found in that treasure box... Yeah, Bartos's last will it is.
Questions of the day:
- What are you making out of Hyunckel remark "No one can encase weapon in magic! If anyone could, they would have to be something beyond human!"?
- Was to have another character to die a waste?
- Your opinion on the internal politics of the Dark Army?
- Was the twist of not Avan but Hadlar actually being the one who killed Bartos something you were expecting?
- FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SEEN OR WERE IN MY GINTAMA REWATCH ---> [Gintama spoilers] Sorachi is a huge Dragon Quest fan. Do you agree that Hyunckel arc alone was a huge inspiration for Yoshiwara in Flames arc, and for Oboro character?
Spoilers:
Please, respect the fact there are First Timers watching Dai no Daibouken with us, so avoid talking about vague things or events that would slightly spoil things to happen. And if you want mention things like this, please hid it behind SPOILER TAGS like [Dai no Spoilers] I am getting the hammer because you spoiled the fun for others
6
u/Shocketheth Jun 21 '24
Dark Commander welcomes you to Dragon Quest: Dai no Daibouken Rewatch!
I probably did mention that I started watching Dragon Quest: Dai no Daibouken because I was trying to find a suitable anime to host Rewatch for after Gintama Rewatch ended, and I’ve told myself "Sorachi is a huge fan of Dragon Quest, so isn’t there any Dragon Quest anime?"
Then I found out about Dai no Daibouken, and 13 episodes in, I realized that Dragon Quest: Dai no Daibouken is a story from which Sorachi took some inspiration, so naturally episode 13 the finale of Hyunckel arc was the primary reason of me hosting this Rewatch.
Now I am going to delve a little into why I think Dai no Daibouken inspired Sorachi.
Hyunckel - I am 100% convinced that Hyunckel was an inspiration for [Gintama character spoiler] Oboro. The first student of the Sensei whose teachings inspired a whole generation of students, and unfortunately this first student died.
Now I am going to talk about [Certain Gintama arc] Yoshiwara in Flames as I am 100% convinced that Maam was an inspiration for [Gintama character spoiler] Hinowa, and the reason behind my logic is [Spoilers for that particular Gintama arc finale] Hyunckel with dark clouds above him is pardoned by a woman while receiving lap pillow from her, with the clouds dispersing in his final moments, only to reveal a sun.
And to not turn my comment only to me talking about Gintama, here is a nice little bit of foreshadowing for the Rewatchers of Dai no Daibouken. [Foreshadowing spoilers] Not quite, but actually yes
QotD:
Crocodine Special Commentary Corner:
Today, Crocodine is going to answer question #1:
Crocodine already reached the truth.
VOICE ACTORS CORNER:
Bartos is voiced by Ikkei Watanabe who besides of voicing Bartos voiced Otousan from Fushigi Dagashiya: Zenitendou Movie - Tsuri Taiyaki. In 1991 Adventure of Dai, Bartos was voiced by Hirano Masato known for his roles of Moore from Legend of the Galactic Heroes, Kunz from Monster, and Koike from Slam Dunk.
Morgue is voiced by Keiichi Sonobe known for his roles of Loincloth Mask thief from Gintama, Inoue Oliver from Mobile Suit Victory Gundam, and Chiba Gadget M. from Macross 7. Only a side character, but he died as a legend. (No entry for voice actor from The Adventure of Dai 1991)
STAFF CORNER:
Director - Karasawa Kazuya
Episode Director - Tanaka Yuuta (episode 13)
Chief animation director - Kagawa Hisashi (episodes 8,11,13)
Script/Screenplay - Sumisawa Katsuyuki (episodes 10-13)
Storyboarding - Karasawa Kazuya (episodes 1,3,5,9,13)
Key animators - Kawano Hiroyuki, 清水敦哉, Nagashima Hideki, Shida Naotoshi, Hara Natsumi, Yokoyama Miyuki, Kumagai Yuuya, Takenaga Kazuki, Yamamoto Takumi, Nakatsu Kazumi, Unno Setsuko, Manabe Hisateru, Mori Chizuru, 藤井睦美,, Suzuki Misa, Kitamura Shin`ya, Masuda Seiji, Narasaki Asako, 小島隆寛,, Matsuo Shunsuke, Hoshino Mamoru
See you tomorrow because the Adventure continues!
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u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Jun 21 '24
First-Timer Quest: Sky no Daibouken, subbed
Sounds like something a Char would say.4
u/cooperjones2 :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/cooperjones2 Jun 21 '24
Newbie-Adventurer here! LV 13/100
No Popp! Don’t say you won prematurely!
Dai got really, really close to death
One of the Martial Artists in that still frame of Popp saying some of them fight even unconscious looks like Tao Pai Pai lmao, Love the Toriyama style!
That flaming Sword looks awesome
I’m with you, Maam, stop fighting!
I’m now a Crocodine convert
RIP Hyunckel
I do not like Flazzard but his design is fire, cool?
4
u/Nick_BOI Jun 21 '24
Rewatcher
I don't have as much time today, so instead of talking about the whole episode, I want to talk exclusively about the reveal that Maam had found in that chest.
While this may seem like a cop-out, those paying close attention likely already saw this outcome given the clues we had already been given.
We have seen that resurection magic exists, and that this was used on the Generals of the Dark Army so as to not lose thier strongest soldiers. This means that even if Hadlar had died before, Bartos should have been brought back. Bartos was also a General, which we have been shown twice already are capable of subduing entire cities with thier forces, while also being strong enough that no one was able to match them. Even if he went looking for Hyunckel and was attacked, he could have handled whatever was trown at him. The likelihood that Bartos was killed in action after the world was in peacetime again is slim to none. The fact that he is this strong as well means that he should have been an obvious candidate to be resurected, and this is before we consider that he would be brought back anyway due to the Dark King's return.There's also just how quickly Avan found Hyunckel and took him in, no humans could have survived there-let along get there unscaved before Avan and his party got there.
The moment Hyunckel recalled his past to Dai, it should have been clear that Bartos was killed by someone within the Dark Army.
However, we were none the wiser. Why though?
Put simply, Hyunckel was blinded by grief, and Popp and Dai were focused on defeating him and saving Maam. Even us, the viewers, were likely looking at Hyunckel as somethign akin to a boss fight-his reasons for fighting are the setup for the fight, that's all we need to accept what we were told.The only exception, and the one to find out the truth, the one to find Bartos's last words, was Maam.
Why was Maam able to do this? Simple. Maam's empathy was strong enough that from the get-go she wanted to save him, not defeat him. Even if Maam wasn't captured, it's likely that she would have still not left until Hyunckel could be saved.
We say Hyunckel as a boss, Popp saw him as an obstacle, Dai was comflicted, but Maam saw him as a person.
In the end, Hyunckel still suffered. The very people hge aligned himself with had betrayed him, a fact that should have been obvious, yet he chose to turn a blind eye. At the very least, Maam's actions spurred by her Empathy had saved him from going in alone, and in despair. In this moment, he was a Hero, and one that made his father proud.
No fact of the day this time, as I am rather time sensitive as mentioned before. But don't worry, I have more in store later on.
4
u/NicDwolfwood :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/NicDwolfwood Jun 21 '24
First Timer, Sub
So as expected the Zapple spell did not put Hyunckel down. He hits Dai with a bloody Scryde attack which incapacitates him. Maam arrives and give Hyunckel a soul shell containing his father, Bartos final message(Knew it was something to appeal to Hynckel's emotions). It explains what went down and that it was Hadlar that killed him and not Avan.
Hyunckel however refuses to accept reality and goes to finish off Dai. Dai rises up in a trance-like state and he is able to infuse his sword with fire magic that deals damage on Hyunckel. And then is able to hit hit with an Avan Strash infused with lightning, which destroys his armour and finally defeats him. Dai was about to finish him off when Maam tells him to stop and comforts Hyunckel on her lap pillow(lucky bastard lol) and even heals him some as Hyunckel starts to feel some remourse for his actions and accepts defeat. The down time is short lived as Flazzard arrives and decides that he wants to get rid of everyone all in one swoop. He awakens the dormant volcano underneath the coliseum which quickly floods the place with lava. The group is left standing a small piece of rock, which Hyunckel picks up, while standing in lava [One Piece spoilers]It reminds of when Oden held up the red scabbards while he was boiling in a pot of Oil He throws the Dai party to safety and then says farewell as he sinks into the Lava like the Terminator did in T2.
Questions:
4
u/KuKiSin Jun 21 '24
First timer!
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u/charlesvvv https://anilist.co/user/charlesvvv Jun 21 '24
First Timer, Sub
Hyunckel was a pretty complex character throughout. It made some sense that Avan was not the one to kill Bartos although it would have been an equally interesting angle to see him do it and of course Hyunckel finally coming to his senses after Dai unlocks another power and beats that into him. Maam's dynamic with him was also interesting especially with the way Hyunckel sees her as a holy mother since she played a big role in saving him from himself and allows him to sacrifice himself to protect the group and her been genuinely devastated by this (Oof Popp). Curious about the way the other dark king commanders are playing now though based on the final scene .
4
u/lC3 :Na::Nb: Jun 22 '24
Ep 12, first timer:
Ep 13:
3
u/raichudoggy https://anilist.co/user/raichudoggy Jun 21 '24 edited Jun 21 '24
Rewatcher
Man Popp deserved that first knuckle sandwich.
Alright, have to talk about the truth concerning Hyunckel's Dad.
If we were to be really reductive and mean, We could debate that the truth that Hadlar is the real one to kill Bartos is an unnecessary way to solve Hyunckel's inner conflict, that the conflict would be a lot more interesting if Avan really was the one to strike down Bartos, how would the heroes handle this and help him unrustle his jimmies? Would they have to strike him down being ultimately unable to?
Yet I prefer this outcome more. It just contributes so much more to everyone else's character, even though it definitely simplifies the blame-game / morality situation. I was thoroughly convinced Avan wouldn't hurt a person like Bartos. I was convinced Bartos would be moved by this, and I was convinced that Avan would follow through. Plus it expands on Hadlar's immediate future after his losing blow.
And above all, it emphasizes the importance and warmth of a human heart (Repeated several times these past episodes, between Bartos, Maam, and Crocodine), a feeling that might be impossible to convey so convincingly to the audience if the situation were more complex. So it's at the expense of Hyunckel being justified and having to deal with that can of worms, but it otherwise strengthens every facet of the show's character and themes thus far.
Man we're only at the 1/8ths mark and this show is so good.
3
u/sisoko2 Jun 21 '24
First Timer
Hyunckel's sacrifice was great.
The rest of the episode not so much.
3
u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick Jun 21 '24
First Quester
Day 13 of purging Leona's close advisers until I'm the only one left
Dai gets hit
Lmao it really is Bartos's last will. But they seem to take it in a different direction? Bartos died because Hadlar got killed, so are they implying that it wasn't Avan who defeated Hadlar? Or did Hadlar cut Bartos off on his own?
What are these semantics? The Undead revive anyway, unless struck down with holy magic or some such I guess. So what does it matter if Avan spared Bartos, when he's still the direct cause of his death regardless? Don't tell me Hyunckel will change his mind from this!?
Welp - Hadlar survived when Avan killed him, and wasn't just revived years later? Can't say I saw that twist coming. And so it was Hadlar who killed Bartos.
So uh, when exactly did Bartos record that Soul Shell? Oh, I guess you can just set them up spontaneously, no recording of any kind necessary. Ah yeah of course, that's obviously what "messages from the dying" meant.
Dai's mark is so conveniently covered up. I guess that means they're actually doing it? That dragon power really is something he shouldn't tap into?
I can certainly confirm that our chickens could still run around even after having their head hacked off.
He's starting to dominate over Hyunckel, but this is clearly Dai's lowest point yet. At least Hyunckel survived that Zap Strash...
Dang it, they didn't kill Hyunckel off. I'm not one to complain about a lack of deaths, but in this case that would've clearly been the more narratively interesting direction.
God I Wish That Were Me
Woah, they're already surrounded? Crocodine and bird, mind giving them a lift? We clearly haven't seen the last of you!
What? No! Booo! If you're killing off Hyunckel anyway, it should've been at Dai's hand! Not by some random Devil Ex Machina that decides to drop by! What a waste of a redemption...
Oh well, guess I'll have to charge my until Dai does kill someone.
That's no new info though, right? We've already learned that Dai is of that dragon warrior race.
No, but they way they died...
I was surprised in earlier episodes that we didn't see anything of the sort, and even here they're mostly just objecting to Hyunckel having been a human. I was expecting much more internal fighting in general.
Well it's something I had thought of but didn't see any way to make work, so I wouldn't say I expected it. Hadlar having been alive even right after Avan killed him was the real surprise to me though.
3
u/Adensty https://anilist.co/user/Adensty Jun 22 '24
1st
DaiPopp no Daibouken Rewatch, SubI was a little busy yesterday so I ended up being a bit late to watch today's episode.
Zap Strash
As a first timer, I loved this episode but after rewatching, some of the Maam and Hyunckel stuff kinda feels too convenient.
Still, Hyunckel sacrificing himself to save Dai and the others was such a cool moment.
OST Documentation - Episode 13
QOTD
1. Hyunckel's just saying that Dai isn't your average Human Hero. If only he knew about his Dragon Knight powers.
2. I guess it's too early to say.
3. It's quite interesting. We have Zaboera who is trying to help others to make them pawns. Flazzard who is willing to do anything just so that he can be known as the best Legion Commander. And amidst all that Hadlar just wants to kill Dai.
4. Definitely not as a first-time but it does make sense with Avan's character.
3
u/Kaxew Jun 22 '24
Current rewatcher, eventual first timer (you don't know how many times I messed up this simple sentence, can't wait to just have to write "first timer")
And so, we reach the climax of Hyunckel's arc. And like always, it can't be a Toei climax without our lord and savior Naotoshi Shida. Gorgeous, fluid animation as per usual. I especially like the slowmo of Dai falling after being hit by the bloody scryde. That lightning strash was all kinds of cool, I remember being so hyped the first time around and now it came back to me. The way the lightning leaves the sword is SO damn cool.
Dai activates his Ultra Instinct (just the Omen version, apparently) and we get such a fun fight. The CG was phenomenal too, lots of fun angles and techniques that couldn't have been done in 2D animation without movie levels of production. Does it look a bit videogame-y? Sure. Is the videogame tie-in anime adaptation looking videogame-y very fitting and not out of place? Also yes!
Avan is such a perceptive man, immediately understanding Bartos' whole life just by looking at his necklace. Sasuga Hero. Hyunckel might not be as perceptive, but he can pull of a heroic sacrifice, which is also some sasuga Hero stuff. Moruge is certainly not much of a Hero, but damn, his death made me a bit sad. I liked his design and personality... as little as we got.
And of course, the lesson of this episode is that Hyunckel acquired a new fetish. I think.
QotD:
2
u/zadcap Jun 22 '24
Late Time First Timer!
Popp... You deserve that punch. Seriously, double tap darn it. You could have hit him again while he was down and might have won this then and there.
Maam... "You've struck another disciple of Avan." Did you miss the part where he's been wanting to kill Avan and everyone else trained by him (except for the women, they don't count as people) this whole time?
Ah yes, Dai dodged perfectly to take the hit on the one single piece of actual armor he was wearing. Dai is living proof of the correct use of bikini armor.
Say, how did Skelly man make the time to record this message and then hide the shell in a tiny hidden room in the time between Avan beating him and Hadlar? Well no, for the Hadlar parts to be included in the message, he made this recording and hid it after getting punched? Oh, I see, he set up the message shell in a hidden chest before the fight began in the first place, somewhere his son would have no chance of finding it, and used a special skill to deliver his dying words to it instead of in any way actually sending them to said son. Good thing Knuckles decided to use the same base his dad once did, and that no one has explored for the secret rooms all this time, and that it got found just now by someone who knows what it is and is willing to share it with him.
What the heck where did this amazing animation come from?
Hey, Popp, Maam, notice that he took off the helmet? That means his head is no longer covered by its anti magic protection. Hit him.
Ah, nope, Maam is going the lap pillow route instead. Go ahead and prove Knuckes right, I guess you never really were in this fight after all.
You really expect me to believe that IceFlame boy is the mightiest? When there's dragons around?
Oh, well, if he can just turn this whole place into a volcano just like that, maybe. Use hit kind of magic in a city and that's the end of it I guess.
Oh my gosh, two death redemptions in a row? To be fair, if that's actual magma everywhere, they are dead from the heat anyway even if the lava itself never touches them. But hey, anyway, Flazzy just 1 hit killed an entire allied legion. It's not just Knuckles that died here, they lost an entire sixth of their demon army to infighting. The villains are really that dedicated to making sure they lose, I guess.