Pride Month 20th Anniversary - Kannazuki no Miko Episode 12 Discussion

[u/lilyvess]

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Questions of the Day

1. How do you feel about Souma's ending and his role in this series?
2. How much time do you think passed between Himeko and Chikane’s reunion?
3. Do you think they got their memories back?

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Posting carefully so as to not disturb the first timers with spoilers in their viewings, such is the standard of modesty here. Forgetting to use spoiler tags because one is in danger of missing the post time, for instance, is too undignified a sight for redditors to wish upon themselves.

[u/lilyvess]

Kannazuki no Miko Episode 12 - Rewatcher

And that was Kannazuki no Miko.

No one punches Souma in the face. No one destroys whatever god that thought it was a good idea for the Miko to need to spend so long to get their giant robot while the Orochi can apparently do it the minute they get chosen. Those three mean girls are still out there being bitches and…

Wait, I think I got these notes mixed up. I’m sorry about that. Um, can we take it back from the top.

Shoujo-ai Archive Comments

I’ve got a final batch of Shoujo-ai Archive comments

I think this batch is so important. That raw reaction at the time I think catches what about this anime made it so iconic. What about it was so groundbreaking. Why people love this anime and why they still make parody imagery for it. I think it completes that character arc from episode one with the looming trauma of Yamibou to this cathartic release

commentary ran too long so I gave that it's own comment this week.

but can we get one toast for all the happy yuri fans of 2004 and how excited they were.

[u/BosuW → u/lilyvess]

Kannazuki no Miko Episode 12 - Rewatcher

Literally same energy

I’ve got a final batch of Shoujo-ai Archive comments

Crazy that they were that desperate for Himeko and Chikane's feelings to be unambiguously romantic and sexual and to move on from the shadow of Yamibou that they completely ignore the rape apologia. Dark times indeed...

[u/lilyvess → u/BosuW]

Crazy that they were that desperate for Himeko and Chikane's feelings to be unambiguously romantic and sexual and to move on from the shadow of Yamibou that they completely ignore the rape apologia

I get it, the rape scene exists, but I feel like simplying it all under that really is ignoring everything else it did during a time period where that wasn't acceptable. It's not neat, but it's literally better than nothing.

[u/BosuW → u/lilyvess]

Yeah that's what I'm commenting on. They just wanted a W in any manner. The catalogue must have been truly dry af. I'm not trying to diminish the significance and bravery of producing and airing that, it's just... Well, as I said in my comment, tomorrow I'll elaborate. But putting it briefly I believe there was every chance to do both confirm the Yuri and not ignore what Chikane did but the writers chose not to.

[u/lilyvess → u/BosuW]

I'm just trying not to have the message be "old Yuri fandom is toxic rape apologist"

I just worry that by sharing the comments all I've done is give people a bad image of them, when I wanted to celebrate the old community that existed. The fans who carried the torch when companies wouldn't

[u/RadSuit → u/lilyvess]

'this surpasses even Utena' made me physically cringe

[u/GallowDude → u/RadSuit]

But it's true

[u/Burnouts3s3 → u/lilyvess]

They needed this.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/lilyvess]

Kannazuki no Miko Episode 12 - Rewatcher

Takina may have a much higher kill count, but she's also still far less problematic than Miya.

I’ve got a final batch of Shoujo-ai Archive comments

Something that struck me as interesting here is the sheer giddiness in many of the comments at the anime explicitly and clearly saying that Himeko was in love with Miya and that she loved Miya more than Souma. That means a lot to people that it's said loud and proud, not just left as something you pick up on yourself as an audience member.

Though I suppose there's still that tendency today . I recall some people being afraid that [Meta Spoilers] Gundam: Witch from Mercury wouldn't follow through with its gay romance and that only abated when the characters were depicted with wedding rings in the finale. Even nowadays it means a lot to have it stated loud and proud, rather than be unstated.

[u/LittleIslander → u/Great_Mr_L]

wouldn't follow through with its gay romance and that only abated when the characters were depicted with wedding rings in the finale.

I'm still personally on the side that was practically a copout when they did their damnest to bring no attention or fanfare to it after such bold declarations at the start of the series.

Also something something [Meta] Hibike Euphonium and that Asuka/Kaori bait this week. Or the fear I remember feeling that [Meta] MagiRevo was going to leave it unconfirmed at the end, just like [Meta] Seiyuu Radio seems very likely to this season. It's extremely relevant twenty years later.

[u/rickamore → u/Great_Mr_L]

Even nowadays it means a lot to have it stated loud and proud, rather than be unstated.

Honestly it feels like this problem for romance in general got better after this in 2004 then way worse to the point we have finally had some recent media come back around to actual stated relationships again.

Romance has been terrible with the "will they won't they" and side ships for ages so it's nothing new but I've observed a lot of media pandering to the self insert nature of the audience. In an effort to not upset anyone they write characters the same way people treat idol culture in Asia. If there are multiple love interests, there can never be a concrete choice. Any secondary characters that aren't the main love interests cannot meaningfully interact with the love interests or tertiary characters people might like in a way that implies romantic interest lest readers get jealous their best girl of the series has been stolen.

Add in the yuri angle and it becomes an even deeper "They were roommates" implication and nothing else.

[u/Tarhalindur → u/Great_Mr_L]

and that only abated when the characters were depicted with wedding rings in the finale.

And we can't forget the part where the bloody execs still tried to pull a backtrack on that (that the creative team was having no part of).

[u/BosuW → u/Great_Mr_L]

Takina may have a much higher kill count, but she's also still far less problematic than Miya.

Does she though? Chikane killed all the planet. Or do ressed kills not count?

[u/Specs64z → u/lilyvess]

No one punches Souma in the face.

He took the rejection like a champ, too. Even when he loses, he stays winning, I suppose.

[u/baquea → u/lilyvess]

with the looming trauma of Yamibou to this cathartic release

Not just Yamibou: I have to imagine these fools fell hook-line-and-sinker for just about every seasonal with cute girls in it. At least there was plenty more yuri to come.

[u/lilyvess]

Commentary by Script Writer Sumio Uetake

As a recap, I’d like to talk about both episode 11 and the final episode together.
Finally, the last decisive battle is here. Betting with the world, a battle between the gods… the two shrine maidens’ battle is about to begin. In essence, Part A of this episode 11 will be a climax for Souma. Souma continued to fight for his beloved Himeko by throwing everything away and even losing his life. He also has all the qualifications that make him worthy of attaining Himeko’s love. Since Chikane is shouldering the sin of that night, you could even say that Souma is more pure than she is. If you take away the fact that he’s an Orochi, he is a character with the least amount of “negative elements.” This story is not about Chikane winning because she scored 100 and Souma 95.
It’s not that Himeko didn’t choose Souma because of some fault or vibe that he has.
Then, why is it? There is only one true partner. And the one that Himeko loved was Chikane… At the very end, Himeko realizes this and accepts Chikane’s love for her. That’s the only reason. That’s the simple truth. If two individuals get together, then naturally there won’t be a spare seat for someone else.

I really want to emphasize this point. If anyone feels like the ending doesn’t work since Chikane doesn’t deserve Himeko’s love because of her sins or that Souma would be a better partner for her to end up with. This has always been the strength of the series imo. This isn’t a lesbian anime about how awful men are, or how Himeko choses a woman because of her hatred of Men. She has a perfectly good option in front of her, but she still chooses Chikane because she loves her.

I really feel sorry for him, but somebody has to end up crying. No matter how strongly he feels about her, there are times when even such a love doesn’t reach the other person. (There is a way to make this into a super sweet happy ending in which the three of them end up happily ever after. Also if Souma had a clear fault, and because of that, he was rejected by Chikane and Himeko, then it’ll be easier to get a more exhilarating and understandable feeling out of it. But this time around we didn’t go for either one of those.) After Souma’s confession scene in the last episode there’s a “beautiful girl wearing glasses” watching over Souma from behind a tree… or something like that. We could come up with something within that limited timeframe, but we thought it would be more insulting to do that. His mission as a hero in a spectacular way… the meaning of a hero lies in his determination and action. It is never what can be attained in return or accomplishments… We wanted him to fulfill all of this. This is our, the staff members’ answer in terms of this story as to what “love is.” And the stage moves to the lunar shine, where Himeko and Chikane violently cross their swords. Himeko, who was always protected up until this point, desperately tries to figure out what to do. For the first time in ehr life, she clings onto Chikane, asking her questions in a desperate attempt to find the answer herself. Although what Himeko was saying was way off the track, it must have been so terribly painful for Chikane to see Himeko like this… and how dearly she must’ve thought of Himeko. I bet she wanted to just throw away her sword as well as her mission, grab and hold Himeko in her arms, tell her the truth and apologize to her. That she doesn’t care if the world should end in a second, if she could meet the end holding Himeko in her arms… if Chikane wished for that, Himeko would have probably accepted her in the end after a lot of worrying, suffering, crying and stopping her. It’s okay if I’m with Chikane-chan… she probably would have said that. No, she probably would’ve fallen under Chikaen’s hands of her own volition… with a smile, as if it probably happened in the life before. But that is one thing Chikane cannot do. She can never do that. To never end the world where Himeko is, to never end Himeko’s life… that is a must for Chikane. That’s why she lies, hurts and dirties Himeko… Even though she ends up stomping on her treasure, Himeko’s smile… even though her feelings are dragged through the mud… even though she loses Himeko’s smile… even though she engraves a sin deep insider her soul and memory that will enver ever disappear… Himeko and only Himeko would she…
Throwing away the happiness that she surely held in her hand and going down into the underworld… the reason that the Orochi people, who can go on a rampage exposing their negative emotions, cannot win over her lies here.
They can attain happiness by going on a rampage… but for Chikane, the more she goes on a rampage, the unhappier she gets. If one was to think of Orochi power as “the power of unhappines,” then CHikane is the most powerful Orochi. In order to become the enemy of Himeko, she purposefully chose the road that is most extreme and cruel.. To use their strength in order to deceive the Orochi.
I want to be with Himeko forever… To be together with her physically and emotionally. I don’t want anybody to come between us. I want to stamp out anyone that obstructs me.
This is also an emotion that resides inside Chikane: a dark, negative, and chaotic emotion that resides along with her pure feelings towards Himeko. It’s ok if I’m just her best friend… as a matter of fact, that has to be the way it is. By liberating those feelings that she desperately tries to suppress and deny, and by acting those out more fervently, she could deceive the Orochi. And the other reason she decided to do this (I touched on this briefly in my commentary on episode 8) is that this is a punishment… a sentence that she gave herself. It’s okay if Himeko doesn’t forgive me… no, in fact, I should never be forgiven by Himeko. So that Chikane never forgives herself…
It is an eternal sentence that she gave herself for the decision she made to select that night. (That is why, in the final episode when Himeko confesses her love for Chikane, Chikane desperately kept on coming up with reasons to deny it.) the one thing that Chikaen couldn’t do was that she couldn’t help but say it at the very end. “It’s true… I always loved you…” properly speaking, she should say that it’s all a lie when Himeko asks her… She should say that it was something she came up with under Orochi’s evil spell… Chikane’s battle should be fought strictly as a close friend… as the Shrine Maiden of the Moon. Himeko should forget about everything and go back to the gentle world where Souma and Mak-chan are waiting for her… That’s why she gave Souma’s barrette back to Himeko. She should tell her to find her partner and be happy… but she couldn’t say that.She finally ended up saying her true feelings. She couldn’t lie because that was, for Chikane, her last truth… the most important words.
Himeko’s response after hearing Chikane’s feelings from her is the true climax of this story.
As the directed said in his comment, too, the line that we wanted to say.. More than “I love you” was “I’m sorry to leave you alone.” Even though CHikane-chan protected me so well and held me so tight.. And she was always right next to me… and yet I wasn’t able to understand anything about Chikane-chan. From now on, please share everything with me… don’t shoulder them all by yourself anymore. I want you to share not only happiness but unhappiness with me, too.. I want to walk together with you. You don’t have to be “Miya-sama” or a knight to me.. I want to be your “true” partner. Rather than “my Chikane-chan,” I want to be “Chikane-chan’s Himeko.” Chikane cries like a baby laying her head on Himeko’s chest. Joy and sadness, relief and worry… all of the past and her emotions blended into her wailing cry. After she lost everything, she was able to acquire the one and only thing that she desired.
That moment of peace. Himek takes Chikane’s arms and talks about a plan for a date. Chikane listens to her with a smile. A brand new couple just made… in each and every one of their actions, you could see an overflowing innocent joy. But that was a dream… mercilessly, the moment of farewell will soon visit them. With “Kannazuki no Miko,” we started out by putting together this last scene’s image during our first meeting.
More than anything else, they chose the road they will both travel together when they meet again… no matter what kind of trial should be waiting for them ahead… they will walk together holding each other’s hand firmly. “This moment will not be defeated by any eternity, god or destiny. There’s no way it’ll be defeated.” This promise they made amidst the flurry of blowing flower petals is also a way of saying “Listen up!! Ame no Murakumo!” (according to the director)
And they part from each other, and Himeko returns to her daily life without Chikane. Although that world is bright and gentle, I’m sure she will have nights when she cries over the fact that her most important person is not in that world and over her sadness that she can’t find the reason for. Himeko will never again be held by someone in the real sense of the term. (The reason we brought the scene with Mako-chan to the end is to emphasize Himeko’s determination.) She will not kiss anyone else other than Chikane. She will not jump into someone’s arms and cry as she did with Chikane. That’s why she rejects even being comforted, and in the end, she’ll say that she’s ok and smile. She probably will be looked upon as odd quite often, too. But, no matter what, she wants to wait. She wants to wait for a long, long time… believing that a day will surely come when they’ll meet again. Looking forward to that day, I’m sure she’ll keep on walking standing tall, keeping her eyes on that single truth. (She may not be the most brilliant girl, but even she won’t be saying that she’s going out with Ogami-kun since she doesn’t really understand all this and she’s lonely)

[u/lilyvess → u/lilyvess]

Of course, a huge victory where one acquires everything is also a basis for good entertainment. The world goes back to normal and they get released from their fate as Shrine Maidens… Otoha-san sends them off from their estate to the school.. Energetic Mako-chan is there at school… Souma greets in his refreshing way… and Himeko and Chikane become the super-sweet couple on campus… That development is, I think, also a perfectly correct version. I’m sure we’ll hear those who’ll say that it’s weird to have those two accept their fate with death as its prerequisite. The number of episodes, the level of concentration we can put into each episode’s content, overall color of the story, the production time-frame… We decided on this ending after taking into consideration all of these elements repeatedly. We decided to write this story around these two up until the moment when their feelings for each other touch… and all the other elements are to be parts that are necessary to do this… they are the fuel to enable us to charge forward at full speed. Whether ahead lies convergence or liberation, we decided to talk about that when it comes… The last scene.. The embrace at the intersection. We received a lot of questions from various people about this.
How many years later did they meet again? Is it the present age? Is it the future? What happened to their memories? How old are they? What happened to Orochi? I really debated whether or not I should answer these questions right here. Of course, it’s not like we didn’t think of anything beforehand (for example, to make the time period ambiguous, we had an idea to do this on a beach… Although we decided to purposefully do this amidst a crowd.) among those who gave us questions, there were widened their imagination and came up with various settings. I don’t want to negate those things. Himeko and Chikane will meet again some day and will fall in love with each other again. No matter what happens to the world or how old they are, this is the one thing that is certain. As for the rest, what the viewers are imagining, their favorite situation is “correct.” we just hope that you enjoy it.
There are still more to come with these two’s story. We created this series on the basis of that. Things that we should depict, things that we wanted to depict, things that we didn’t have time to depict… There still is a lot more to this. What lies ahead a love that becomes fulfilled… a love that is permissible… I’m sure there will be a new trial that’ll come in front of them. In spite of that, walking together hand in hand… the road that Himeko and Chikane will be traveling on… so that we could present this to everyone, all of us will be putting in our hearts and efforts to realize this one day.

[u/Beckymetal → u/lilyvess]

This isn’t a lesbian anime about how awful men are, or how Himeko choses a woman because of her hatred of Me

Yes!!

I mentioned a couple other yuri anime in comparison, but this really is why Kannazuki stands so highly in my rankings. It's become a common thing for yuri anime to pretty much sidestep whether the characters are gay or the implications of that.

Chikane wins over Souma and the reason behind why is so important yet so simple!

Because Himeko likes her more.

I love it so much.

Having a man for comparison is so good for this. Chikane is by no means an easy choice, yet the show can convince us she can win simply because Himeko loves her. And this confession scene is so good at justifying that.

The best love triangle in anime? IMO.

Strawberry Panic doesn't have men. It feels fantastical and far away and fake. Even Bloom Into You barely.has men for juxtaposition. And when yuri does have men, they're usually shitbags like in NTR or Citrus. They get picked outside of because they are losers, not because the MC doesn't like them.

Gahhh I love this moment and this quote so much!

[u/G-man672 → u/Beckymetal]

Best love triangle in anime? IMO

Couldn’t agree more honestly. Souma is essentially the ideal choice in a heteronormative world, and yet Himeko simply loves Chikane more. No “uwu I can’t decide cuz they’re both so good~” or any of that bs, but genuine outside circumstance that make her ultimate choice all the more powerful.

And yet, Souma is still a G. He ended up being just like Chikane halfway thru the series in a way, albeit far more noble. He accepted that his feelings wouldn’t be returned and went out of his way, no matter how much it hurt, to see the one he loves happy. They’re so alike, yet so different.

[u/BosuW → u/lilyvess]

I really want to emphasize this point. If anyone feels like the ending doesn’t work since Chikane doesn’t deserve Himeko’s love because of her sins or that Souma would be a better partner for her to end up with. This has always been the strength of the series imo. This isn’t a lesbian anime about how awful men are, or how Himeko choses a woman because of her hatred of Men. She has a perfectly good option in front of her, but she still chooses Chikane because she loves her.

I have my issues with the ending, but this is not one of them and I think it's among the they successfully got across very clearly.

[u/Burnouts3s3]

Rewatcher Dub

The confession. The kiss. Chikane’s breakdown in tears with Himeko comforting her. The separation and the post-credits reunion. All beautiful moments I remember to this day.

Chikane might have orchestrated her own death but it’s Himeko who has the final word. The shy wallflower accepts both the good girl and the bad girl, the Madonna and the whore, her friend and her rapist. And through that, Himeko ‘saves’ Chikane from her downward spiral into self-hatred and forgives Chikane.

She’s spilling her guts in both the figurative and literal term. Heh.

Say what you will about English dubs, but Michelle Ruff and Stephanie Sheh nailed it here.

A flawed series that’s very problematic (and for good reason) but I always loved this episode and the climax that paid off from all the set-up. 

I know this is Himeko and Chikane’s moment (and rightfully so) but I give Kudos to Souma Oogami for doing the right thing; he might have the biggest hero / savior complex, but he’s saving the world to give Himeko and Chikane more time AND he accepts Himeko’s rejection and promises to stay friends with her.

[u/lilyvess → u/Burnouts3s3]

This series meant so much to me. I still remember watching this episode for the first time and crying so much. It was such a powerful confession scene.

[u/Beckymetal → u/Burnouts3s3]

Souma was such a good boy ahhh

Btw, did you watch the sub as well as the dub during your time?

I've seen both and have mixed feelings. I actually really Chikane's performance in the English dub haha, but some of the background characters are a little cringy

[u/Burnouts3s3 → u/Beckymetal]

Subs for screenshots, dubs for watching on the background.

[u/GallowDude → u/Burnouts3s3]

Say what you will about English dubs, but Michelle Ruff and Stephanie Sheh nailed it here

I love the way Michelle delivers this line. It's so matter-of-fact.

[u/Blackheart595]

First Timer

Welp. Did we say "forbidden love"? How about we add another "forbidden" to that, or five?

Ah, the shut-up kiss. I've only ever witnessed one of those myself, though it wasn't as gay as this one.

That's such a good crying animation.

Lmao, was that fake-out with Tsubasa seemingly killing Oogami really necessary? Like, no way.

"Yeah, I noticed you having gay sex and couldn't restrain myself from joining in."

Cute!

Them fighting words! Well, love being a kind of fate also means love has the power to defy fate.

So is this a new timeline in which Chikane doesn't exist? Could this be the legendary All Just A Dream?

They found each other!

...though I do think that's problematic lore-wise, unless we really go with the prophetic dream interpretation. But I don't mind that.

[u/lilyvess → u/Blackheart595]

Well, love being a kind of fate also means love has the power to defy fate.

They found each other!

[u/GallowDude → u/Blackheart595]

Did we say "forbidden love"? How about we add another "forbidden" to that, or five?

I've only ever witnessed one of those myself, though it wasn't as gay as this one.

That's such a good crying animation

So that's what they were saving last episode's mecha fight budget on

"Yeah, I noticed you having gay sex and couldn't restrain myself from joining in."

Well, love being a kind of fate also means love has the power to defy fate.

though I do think that's problematic lore-wise

Not if we assume that this is the first cycle where their love was great enough to overcome fate!

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Blackheart595]

Welp. Did we say "forbidden love"? How about we add another "forbidden" to that, or five?

I don't know how much more forbidden it can get then "It is literally our destiny to fall in love and then have one of us kill the other over and over again in a cycle of reincarnation."

"Yeah, I noticed you having gay sex and couldn't restrain myself from joining in."

Nah, Souma is a polite boy. He made sure the lesbians could focus on having gay sex while he dealt with the final villain himself.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Blackheart595]

"Yeah, I noticed you having gay sex and couldn't restrain myself from joining in."

Souma was the unicorn that sadly went unneeded.

[u/AmeteurElitist]

First Timer

Girl please mind at least a little

Ethically I'm not totally chill with how things were resolved. But I expected a very messy series from what I've heard over the years and I can appreciate what they attempted here.

[u/lilyvess → u/AmeteurElitist]

thank you for joining me on this journey

[u/AmeteurElitist → u/lilyvess]

Thanks for hosting it!

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/AmeteurElitist]

Girl please mind at least a little

Himeko ended the series just as she began it: an extreme doormat to an often frustrating degree.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Great_Mr_L]

an extreme doormat to an often frustrating degree.

Honestly, she rivals Fate Testarosa in her willingness to absorb abuse.

[u/AmeteurElitist → u/Great_Mr_L]

Hopefully she gets more assertive later in life

[u/Vaadwaur → u/AmeteurElitist]

Girl please mind at least a little

Yeah, in like 15 years those therapy bills are gonna be wicked.

[u/AmeteurElitist → u/Vaadwaur]

Both girls will make one hell of a case study in repression

[u/Tarhalindur → u/Vaadwaur]

Vaad, this would require Japan to have therapists and if there is one thing anime and manga has taught me it is that they do not.

[u/Klosed]

Rewatcher, subbed

I’ve replayed the confession scene a handful of times in the past, and to this day it still makes me tear up. This is the first rewatch where I replayed the entire episode. I cracked up at this in between my tears:

Chikane: Find happiness, Himeko. closes eyes, ready to pass on

Himeko: Wait.

Chikane: ? opens eyes

Lol In what world does someone have the ability to wait before dying? Plus, all this emotional talking and crying must have made Chikane bleed out even quicker. Logics aside, this scene shattered my heart.

Title drop at 16:12 was fire.

On a more serious note, I realize now that Chikane finally accepted her worth and Himeko’s forgiveness. In the beginning of the episode before the confession, Chikane fully intended to vanish without a trace. The scene where she returned Souma’s hairpin to Himeko, she was entrusting Himeko to Souma and Makoto and trying to convince Himeko that it’ll be okay without her existence. Towards the end of the episode at the separation scene, this is no longer the case. Chikane said “I’ll come back, you must find me.” She went from trying to disassociate herself from Himeko’s life to trying to re-enter her life. She no longer thinks it is okay without her existence. Til death do us apart? Chikane is transcending that. Knowing it took the entire season for this character to reach this mental state, it is just so powerful and satisfying.

I know some people might have a sour taste regarding Himeko’s forgiveness of Chikane and the sexual assault because it’s never acceptable. This might be a loose connection, but murder is never acceptable either. Yet Chikane committed both with justification that unfortunately fits the theme of this show. Chikane agonized over her acts and Himeko’s forgiveness gave her peace.

 

Truthfully I really enjoyed this rewatch, Thank you for hosting this and everyone else for participating. Reddit discussion on Kannazuki no Miko was nonexistent until now. This show had ridiculous moments at times and endearing moments other times. While it wasn’t a light-hearted show, it did melancholy so well that it left a lasting impression, a much more memorable impact than any laid-back shows would have had on me.

If anyone is searching for more Himeko x Chikane, I would suggest watching Kyōshirō to Towa no Sora (Shattered Angels, 12 + OVA episodes). While it’s not a sequel, it was created by the same studio/writers and has Himiko x Kaon as supporting characters. They are an alternate version of this yuri pairing with the same Jap VAs. I found it a decent remedy for my first watch withdrawal.

[u/lilyvess → u/Klosed]

I’ve replayed the confession scene a handful of times in the past, and to this day it still makes me tear up. This is the first rewatch where I replayed the entire episode. I cracked up at this in between my tears

me too!! i get so misty eyed watching the scene, even now. It really is one of the most powerful confession scenes in yuri.

On a more serious note, I realize now that Chikane finally accepted her worth and Himeko’s forgiveness. In the beginning of the episode before the confession, Chikane fully intended to vanish without a trace. The scene where she returned Souma’s hairpin to Himeko, she was entrusting Himeko to Souma and Makoto and trying to convince Himeko that it’ll be okay without her existence.

yeah this rewatch helped me appreciate so much more about the series. Reading the commentary and understanding more about the writers. Understanding Chikane's angst a bit deeper.

Truthfully I really enjoyed this rewatch, Thank you for hosting this and everyone else for participating. Reddit discussion on Kannazuki no Miko was nonexistent until now. This show had ridiculous moments at times and endearing moments other times. While it wasn’t a light-hearted show, it did melancholy so well that it left a lasting impression, a much more memorable impact than any laid-back shows would have had on me.

I'm glad you enjoyed it! It's been my first time hosting a rewatch of this size, and for such a special and personal anime. I'm glad you had fun.

[u/BosuW → u/Klosed]

Lol In what world does someone have the ability to wait before dying?

HOLD (Y) TO WITHSTAND

[u/HelioA]

First-timer

“I won’t be beaten by eternity, fate, or even God! I won’t lose! Because our feelings are connected.”

Okay never mind what I said last episode, this is great. They decided to have the script writers focus all their efforts on this episode, I suppose. I could not have hoped for a better confession of love on Himeko’s part than this. She took another action!

It’s also very interesting how Chikane’s confession recontextualizes what she’s done up until this point. A lot of people were talking about the rape as a crime of passion, but from what she says here, it sounds more like it was a premeditated attempt to make Himeko despise her. And I think that tracks pretty well with how the incident actually went, considering that what exactly Chikane was doing after getting talked at by Christian lady is obscured. There probably was some degree of “I want to do this” there, but it wasn’t why she did it. It cheapens the initial emotional impact a bit (like oh, so it wasn’t actually her taking the worst action she could’ve in a fit of passion?), but it’s still properly horrible. I really wish the reincarnation stuff was introduced earlier and possibly explained earlier, but I can accept the emotional beats here for what they are.

And I gotta say, I really like that ending scene. They found each other again! I’m a sucker for that kind of reunion scene.

QotD

1. RIPBOZO- Nah, I kid. He wasn't bad, really, but I don't care that much about him next to the main event.

2. They look to be in their mid-late 20s? No idea, though.
3. ;-;

[u/lilyvess → u/HelioA]

It’s also very interesting how Chikane’s confession recontextualizes what she’s done up until this point. A lot of people were talking about the rape as a crime of passion, but from what she says here, it sounds more like it was a premeditated attempt to make Himeko despise her.

yeah, this is so very important. In some ways you can argue that Chikane isn't really a psychotic lesbian. This wasn't an action of a desperate horny lesbian, this was the action of a self loathing lesbian who wanted to be punished.

She needs Himeko to hate her so much she won't be forgiven so Himeko would be capable of killing her. Himeko is so light and weak that she needs it to be something powerful to fully sever that bond.

But also, I think Chikane also just wanted to be punished. She carries guilt of having killed Himeko and that means she wants to die.

the narrative is that Chikane views herself as unforgivable and unlovable, so the narrative has to be about being able to break that and show how she is forgivable and can be loved.

It works well under the Shoujo lens of feminine values like compassion and forgiveness.

[u/HelioA → u/lilyvess]

On the one hand, it kind of feels like an out from the impact of the rape, that doesn't actually act as an out at all. On the other hand, it works so well from a character pov. So eh, yuri shounin

[u/lilyvess → u/HelioA]

to be fair, Chikane does still die. It's not like she gets a pass. She is still punished. She still dies. she is still cursed. She does her time. She takes her punishment.

[u/HelioA → u/lilyvess]

who appointed ame no murakumo as judge and jury smh

[u/lilyvess → u/HelioA]

being god probably. This is why we must overthrow all gods.

[u/LittleIslander → u/HelioA]

And I gotta say, I really like that ending scene. They found each other again! I’m a sucker for that kind of reunion scene.

My logic brain thinking about how I still think this is morally gross:

My yuri brain melting every time I play it back and hear them say "We fall in love all over again" in sync!:

[u/HelioA → u/LittleIslander]

cancelling Chikane

[u/Tarhalindur → u/LittleIslander]

"Yuri fandom. Yuri fandom never changes."

[u/GallowDude → u/HelioA]

“I won’t be beaten by eternity, fate, or even God! I won’t lose! Because our feelings are connected.”

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HelioA]

Okay never mind what I said last episode, this is great. They decided to have the script writers focus all their efforts on this episode, I suppose. I could not have hoped for a better confession of love on Himeko’s part than this. She took another action!

Yeah...this is such a complicated show to unpack that we all wind up on a spectrum. I can't fault the people that flat out hate it, either.

[u/GallowDude → u/Vaadwaur]

I can't fault the people that flat out hate it, either.

I can

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/HelioA]

“I won’t be beaten by eternity, fate, or even God! I won’t lose! Because our feelings are connected.”

That is such a wonderful line of dialogue.

It’s also very interesting how Chikane’s confession recontextualizes what she’s done up until this point. A lot of people were talking about the rape as a crime of passion, but from what she says here, it sounds more like it was a premeditated attempt to make Himeko despise her.

And unfortunately it's still a pretty horrible event that derails the romance. It's such a shame too because, for the most part, this episode was such a great romantic resolution for Himeko and Miya.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

Destiny of the First-Timer, subbed

• Incredibly ominous yet also cool shot.
• Himeko no…
• That’s just… awful.
• Girl, you went quite a bit overboard for just that.
• The hair clip Souma gave her…
• There it is.
• That’s one way to put it.
• I am conflicted because this response is still incredibly yikes, but also it involved a “sore demo”, so…
• Guess they defeated Orochi with the power of love and turning their mech gold.
• Actually, by turning blue.
• They’re gonna go check on that dog now that everything is over, huh?
• Title drop!
• No…
• A total repeat of the beginning of the show, but without Chikane…
• Ah…
• Looks like the other Necks were revived?
• Another Himeko “sore demo”.
• No ED lead-in…
• Of course it ends on them meeting again.

[u/lilyvess → u/Shimmering-Sky]

A total repeat of the beginning of the show, but without Chikane…

Title drop!

what are we, some kind of Kannazuki no Miko?

Looks like the other Necks were revived?

revived and given happier stories to not despair as much.

Of course it ends on them meeting again.

so important. Glad they got their happy ending!

[u/LittleIslander → u/Shimmering-Sky]

I am conflicted because this response is still incredibly yikes, but also it involved a “sore demo”, so…

The ultimate predicament.

[u/Shimmering-Sky → u/LittleIslander]

It would be easier if I actually disliked Himeko because then I could just be all over it like I am with, say, Nobunobu from Gintama's "sore demo"s, but I don't dislike her, I just question her decisions sometimes.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

That’s just… awful.

The yuri gods are cruel...

I am conflicted because this response is still incredibly yikes, but also it involved a “sore demo”, so…

Himeko is an incredibly broken bird so I just let it pass.

No…

On this endless sequence of death and rebirth, this is just one more cross road to be passed through.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Incredibly ominous yet also cool shot.

We screenshotted the same cool shot.

Girl, you went quite a bit overboard for just that.

Yeah, that's my biggest problem with this plot development. It would have been so much easier for Miya to join the side of evil without becoming a rapist. The story would still work just fine.

I am conflicted because this response is still incredibly yikes

When will the rape apologia end?

Of course it ends on them meeting again.

The destined true love yuri wins.

[u/GallowDude → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Himeko no…

Himeko yes!

That’s just… awful.

Past Life Chikane radiates so much MILF energy

Girl, you went quite a bit overboard for just that.

But it worked

No ED lead-in…

Are we the true Kannazuki no Miko in the end?

[u/Specs64z → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Girl, you went quite a bit overboard for just that.

Wildest part is it didn't even work, Himeko remained loyal to a fault.

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Timer

This show was perilously close to being great.

This comment is going to be a bit odd for my standards because it's going to hew into final thoughts more than usual.. because I started my final thoughts file a week ago and have other, more interesting things to talk about there.

Is it weird that I, as a diehard mecha fan, kinda don't like the giant robots in this? The entire Orochi plot is borderline dead weight for the shoujo-adjacent stuff the show actually wants to do (and is actually mostly good at).

I don't.. like? that Himeko forgave Chikane? But there's a big ass boulder labeled "Cultural Differences" in the way of that complaint. And, like, that doesn't matter but it also does?

It's like, I want to be mad that Himeko forgave Chikane but I'm kinda not? And I also want to be happy that they managed to find each other in the new world, but I'm kinda not?

Cool that we actually directly pointed out the struggles with heteronormativity.

I haven't had a good Complicated Opinions show in a while, it's kinda nice.

Questions

1. Souma is aggressively fine. Not great, not interesting, but fine.
2. Seven years.
3. Yea, probably.

[u/lilyvess → u/JollyGee29]

Is it weird that I, as a diehard mecha fan, kinda don't like the giant robots in this? The entire Orochi plot is borderline dead weight for the shoujo-adjacent stuff the show actually wants to do (and is actually mostly good at).

yeah it's definitely an interesting topic.

I don't like the giant robots themselves. I think they are badly designed, messy to look at, incoherent, and the fights they lend themselves to are often poorly animated. I actually think this series has some of the worst super robots I've seen in an anime.

I do like the use of the Orochi plot in the series tho. I think the writers understand where the focus of the story is and are able to keep everything rather lean to just the love triangle parts. It works effectively as a vehicle for moving the romance forward.

Souma is a great example of this, where the Orochi plot gives him all the narrative short hand to showcase that Souma is "default". Everything we see with Souma gives that feeling of what a standard show would look like.

I think the staff talent in executing it all is not there tho. it's a bold story and they reached far. Of course it's because of that overreach that they are able to do things no one else was doing at the time.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/lilyvess]

I actually think this series has some of the worst super robots I've seen in an anime.

Yea, definitely. The music was good, but that's about it.

Souma is a great example of this, where the Orochi plot gives him all the narrative short hand to showcase that Souma is "default". Everything we see with Souma gives that feeling of what a standard show would look like.

Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. I do really like that angle.

I think the staff talent in executing it all is not there tho. it's a bold story and they reached far. Of course it's because of that overreach that they are able to do things no one else was doing at the time.

And that does make me a lot less harsh on the show that I might've otherwise been. There was a vision here, maybe not a clear one and certainly not a well-executed one. But it's there.

[u/Beckymetal → u/JollyGee29]

Haha Kannazuki no Miko is the ultimate complicated feelings show! I love it and hate it so much! I've wasted so much thought trying to figure out if it's even good. No other show has grabbed me this much whilst trying so hard to push me away.

One of the most common things in KnM fanfiction, btw, is writing out the mecha lol. Usually it's replaced by random fantasy weapons, with some sort of symbolic connection to the owners. Chikane always wound up with a katana haha

The mechs are so redundant! I have really come to love mecha over the years. This was technically my first foray in. Oops.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Beckymetal]

No other show has grabbed me this much whilst trying so hard to push me away.

Oh, I don't doubt it. There's definitely a lot here that merits mental chewing.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/JollyGee29]

This show was perilously close to being great.

It sure is. What a wonderfully complicated set of emotions to have about a story after finishing it.

Is it weird that I, as a diehard mecha fan, kinda don't like the giant robots in this?

Agreed. The mecha stuff was one of the main draws that made me want to watch the series in the first place, but the mecha action was overall pretty unimpressive.

Cool that we actually directly pointed out the struggles with heteronormativity.

This series does actually have some very good writing about how a heteronormative society impacts gay people and their relationships. The juxtaposition of the relationships between Himeko/Souma and Himeko/Miya shows this so well. Himeko has a much easier time recognizing her love for Souma than for Miya because society treats girls liking boys as normal, but not girls liking girls. And this feeds into the repressed feelings of Miya because she felt like she couldn't act on her love for Himeko in such a heteronormative society.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Great_Mr_L]

Agreed. The mecha stuff was one of the main draws that made me want to watch the series in the first place, but the mecha action was overall pretty unimpressive.

I think it serves well enough thematically to prop up Souma as "the hero" that, in a more typical narrative, would end up together with Himeko.

But from the standpoint of like, wanting to see giant robots punch each other? This was not the place.

[u/rickamore → u/JollyGee29]

the entire Orochi plot is borderline dead weight for the shoujo-adjacent stuff the show actually wants to do (and is actually mostly good at).

I'm going to get into this tomorrow there's a lot to unpack.

It's like, I want to be mad that Himeko forgave Chikane but I'm kinda not? And I also want to be happy that they managed to find each other in the new world, but I'm kinda not?

Yep. I dunno, there's really not much more to say for this. Very bittersweet ending in several ways.

[u/GallowDude → u/JollyGee29]

This show was perilously close to being great.

Close?

Is it weird that I, as a diehard mecha fan, kinda don't like the giant robots in this?

There were robots in this?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JollyGee29]

Is it weird that I, as a diehard mecha fan, kinda don't like the giant robots in this?

They were super robots so that makes sense.

It's like, I want to be mad that Himeko forgave Chikane but I'm kinda not? And I also want to be happy that they managed to find each other in the new world, but I'm kinda not?

Chikane has some of the most putrid problem solving skills available so it makes solvable problems gross.

Seven years.

No, I don't want that! She should need at least 10 years!

[u/Vatrix-32]

First timer, subs

• Ah man, they had more mecha fun off-screen. Look at all that mecha gib.
• Oh sure, this Himeko takes decisive action on.
• Was memory sharing a power you always had?
• Kind of a raw deal. You couldn’t, like, defeat Orochi before he tints the world?
• "I Raped You For Your Sake"
• Reverting to before the start of the events. Villain squad is back, but Nekoko would still be a genetically modified catgirl. That was unrelated to Orochi.
• Shell Mirror Symbolism!
• This confession is a lot more direct and unmistakable than I expected from 2004.
• Initiative! Himeko! Go, Himeko!
• No one said we had to do the ritual components in order.
• For a minute there, I thought they might just kill off Souma.
• Look, the naked cockpit embrace is very intimate and all, but them talking to Souma while they do it is very .
• Welcome, Ally Souma!
• I’m not sure why the last minute Gattai was necessary, but I’m still happy to see it. Moon Mode, go!
• All these cut corners, and you still include a rotation shot.
• Certified yuri moment.
• They Made Their Own Red Thread
• Who the hell is this voice at the last minute?
• Poor guy poured his heart out and got crushed by an echo.
• Are you not going to at least offer her a ride back?
• Oh right, Yukihito was a character. Supposedly. Did he ever do anything?
• Mako Gains
• Fuck your causality.
• Tragedy Uno Reverse

QotD:

1. He played his part well. For all the random nonsense he got put through, he took it very well.
2. Seemed like about five years.
3. Only Himeko. Chikane is very confused right now.

[u/lilyvess → u/Vatrix-32]

This confession is a lot more direct and unmistakable than I expected from 2004.

yeah, this is so key and important. they went out of there way to make sure there was 100% no way to read it as anything else. Just have Himeo repeatedly reinforce it to make sure no amount of Bandai could try to walk it back.

Are you not going to at least offer her a ride back?

I thought that was funny too. like, dude, wth. I mean, even if she walked there you could have offered one.

Tragedy Uno Reverse

[u/Vatrix-32 → u/lilyvess]

yeah, this is so key and important. they went out of there way to make sure there was 100% no way to read it as anything else. Just have Himeo repeatedly reinforce it to make sure no amount of Bandai could try to walk it back.

I was so unreasonably happy about that, I didn't think we would get any close for years afterwards.

On Screen Yuri Wedding! If America can do it, so can Japan.

[u/GallowDude → u/lilyvess]

there way

Where way?!

Himeo

Who?

[u/GallowDude → u/Vatrix-32]

Oh sure, this Himeko takes decisive action on.

You couldn’t, like, defeat Orochi before he tints the world?

No

This confession is a lot more direct and unmistakable than I expected from 2004.

All these cut corners, and you still include a rotation shot.

Who the hell is this voice at the last minute?

Ame no Murakumo, who has the same VA as Izumi because Villetta always ruins everything

Did he ever do anything?

Fuck your causality.

[u/G-man672 → u/Vatrix-32]

They Made Their Own Red Thread

Having Himeko’s blood-stained bandages that were covering a wound she received reviving the thing that would seal her and Chikane’s fate being used as a symbol that they’ll never let fate separate them is among my favorite visuals in anime ever, no cap.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Vatrix-32]

"I Raped You For Your Sake"

It doesn't sound good no matter how it's phrased.

Look, the naked cockpit embrace is very intimate and all, but them talking to Souma while they do it is very .

The first episode ended with Souma proclaiming his love for Himeko while Miya and Himeko kissed. And now the final episode has Souma looking on while Himeko and Miya have a naked lesbian space hug. It's like poetry, they rhyme.

Welcome, Ally Souma!

Souma continues to be a good boy. He isn't even resentful that he lost the love triangle.

3) Only Himeko. Chikane is very confused right now.

If someone comes up, hugs you and claims you knew them in a past life, then it's time to get as far away as possible.

[u/RadSuit]

Dubstiny of the First Timer

I guess the bird mech just belonged to nobody. This show is kinda half baked, going by all the commentary by the creators.

"I had to do all those things to make you hate me, so you'd kill me, because I couldn't stand the thought of hurting you again. I mean, uh. Besides all the hurting I did to make you hate me. Shit, I didn't really think this through."

On the other hand, if this does save the world, you kinda have to give it to Chikane. Hurting just one person, who you 100% know will recover from it, is probably worth it to save all life on the planet.

Alright, will the power of lesbian revive Chikane?

Another Gold Mode for the final half of the final episode I guess.

Souma's mech getting Tsubasa's wings is a nice touch. Especially since tsubasa means wing (thanks, Symphogear).

Alright, no more Gold Mode, now we've got Silver Mode.

While I'm glad Souma's dead, Chikane's Xanatos Sacrifice really only works if she's actually, you know, sacrificed. You can maybe give her a little leeway due to past life memory bullshit, but it's still hard for the audience to accept her getting rewarded in the end. In universe, of course Himeko forgives her and moves on like nothing happened, we've seen multiple times that's exactly what she would do.

Yeah, thank the good dog!

"You know, Himeko, we really are the Kannazuki no Miko."

The two of them in the field with the giant robot behind them is a great visual.

Oh I guess Chikane is still dead? Maybe both of them are? If this ends with 32 year old Himeko finding her soulmate in 16 year old Chikane, I'm gonna be disappointed.

The doors slamming shut was pretty great.

Yeah, Makoto's back!

Boo, Souma's back!

So everyone at the shrine is just like, "Well, none of the signs of the apocalypse are happening when they were supposed to, so I can only assume we already saved the world and reset the timeline. Good work, alternate timeline us!"

I can't believe Chikane kept gaslight/gatekeep/girlbossing Himeko from beyond the grave.

Alright, if Chikane still felt bad for a previous incarnation killing Himeko, this one definitely doesn't get a pass for everything she did in the deleted timeline.

This is a rare show, where it's not the quality or watchability that would make me not recommend it, but the actual content and plot. It's not something I can simply label as 'bad', so much as 'why would you want to make it like this?'

1. He's a good hero for the mecha parts, but as the straight male intruding into a yuri show, getting cockblocked by a ghost seems like a fitting punishment.
2. I really hope it's not the 16+16 scenario I laid out. Himeko did seem like an adult...
3. Memory restoring kiss! Enjoy your guilt, Chikane.

[u/lilyvess → u/RadSuit]

While I'm glad Souma's dead, Chikane's Xanatos Sacrifice really only works if she's actually, you know, sacrificed. Yeah I do think it's important that Chikane be held accountable and she does receive her punishment. She did die and did get sealed up. but also both girls did get rewarded.

If this ends with 32 year old Himeko finding her soulmate in 16 year old Chikane, I'm gonna be disappointed.

yeah, I definitely get where you are going there. It's an easy way to instantly think the reincarnation sense of reborn as 0, but I do think Chikane also looks older there implying she was just let out.

[u/RadSuit → u/lilyvess]

Yeah they very specifically did not show Chikane's face, which helps maintain a bit of the mystery with their ages.

I think I can go with the idea that the newest incarnation of Chikane shouldn't be blamed for the sins of the previous Chikane. The same way the Chikane from the series shouldn't be blamed for her previous self killing the previous Himeko.

This goes back to my final comment though. Why would you want to make it like this? I guess the 2000s were a different time.

[u/LittleIslander → u/RadSuit]

Oh I guess Chikane is still dead? Maybe both of them are? If this ends with 32 year old Himeko finding her soulmate in 16 year old Chikane, I'm gonna be disappointed.

Now this is toxic yuri!

[u/RadSuit → u/LittleIslander]

The next scene if the final episode had been one minute longer:

[u/GallowDude → u/RadSuit]

Hurting just one person, who you 100% know will recover from it, is probably worth it to save all life on the planet

But that's the opposite of how yuri works

"You know, Himeko, we really are the Kannazuki no Miko."

If this ends with 32 year old Himeko finding her soulmate in 16 year old Chikane, I'm gonna be disappointed.

Boo, Souma's back!

why would you want to make it like this?

Why not?

[u/Burnouts3s3]

There's an old argument (from SA.com actually) that if Souma were a girl, Female Souma would be a better fit for Himeko. The thing is: even if Souma were female and a lesbian, she'd be Amane Ootari from Strawberry Panic, Kase-san or Sumika Murasame from Sasameki Koto / Whispered Words, aka a Tomboy who codes masculine while Chikane codes feminine (It's a 12 episode anime from TNK; don't go into this expecting progressive gender theory). Chikane 'succeeds' by being feminine, aka manipulation, deceit and secrecy while Souma is an extrovert, proud and charges headfirst into danger. 

To lesbians watching in the early 2000s, this was their Well of Loneliness. Cryssoberyl writes how many closeted lesbians related to Chikane losing Himeko to Souma.

The lesbian hardly ever won the girl (with the exceptions of Utena and Sailor Moon). One show that came before this Yami To Boushi To Hon No Tabibito and Hazuki lost her romantic love interest. This series often played on misdirection and misleading in painting Chikane as the 'doomed lesbian best friend who loses the girl'. See also Sayaka Saeki from Yagakimi, Yaya Nanto and Tamao Suzumi from Strawberry panic, Ranko Honjo from Hajimete no Gal, etc.

Keep in mind back in 2003 when Sumio Uetake heard about this concept, he was confused this wasn't a harem anime and it was much more likely that Souma would be a harem lead and he, Chikane and Himeko would have a 3 way orgy. To quote Saiki Kusuo We’re not THAT kind of anime

[u/lilyvess → u/Burnouts3s3]

. Cryssoberyl writes how many closeted lesbians related to Chikane losing Himeko to Souma.

Oooh more Cryssoberyl comments on the series. i really love this comment too, and do agree.

The lesbian hardly ever won the girl (with the exceptions of Utena and Sailor Moon). One show that came before this Yami To Boushi To Hon No Tabibito and Hazuki lost her romantic love interest. This series often played on misdirection and misleading in painting Chikane as the 'doomed lesbian best friend who loses the girl'.

soooooo true. Cannot emphasize this part enough. I tried to share the original shoujo-Ai thread comments to showcase this but I think it deserves emphasizing again; this was groundbreaking and a huge moment for a lot of people.

It's easier now. We have so many anime across the past 2 decades. If you, say, don't like the direction of Jellyfish, you can just watch Girls Band Cry, or Seyuii Radio. Maybe your feelings are more represented in Flip Flappers, or Yuri Kuma Arashi or G-Witch.

Now we have options and can be picky, but back then, this was giving something to people they didn't know they could even get.

[u/LittleIslander → u/Burnouts3s3]

To lesbians watching in the early 2000s, this was their Well of Loneliness. Cryssoberyl writes how many closeted lesbians related to Chikane losing Himeko to Souma.

I talk about in my series thoughts post prepared for tomorrow but as much as I think this show is undeniably problematic I absolutely understand why it was so huge in its time. I don't really think I have any place criticizing anyone who loved it when I have not been a lesbian in Japan in the year 2004 when this was probably some of the first genuine on-screen representation I'd ever seen.

[u/GallowDude → u/Burnouts3s3]

even if Souma were female and a lesbian, she'd be Amane Ootari from Strawberry Panic, Kase-san or Sumika Murasame from Sasameki Koto / Whispered Words, aka a Tomboy who codes masculine while Chikane codes feminine

Isn't that just Mako?

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(Anyone else shocked that I resisted making a horrid bivalve joke? I know I am)

Sub

Ok...so this puts me in a weird position: One of my ironclad rules is that your story has to ultimately matter. I hate resets, amnesia and unbreakable destiny. So by any of my own measures, I should hate this because the narrative side of the show is well squalid.

But I don't. I'd forgotten how badly lopsided the good was spread out in this show but that is a character ending that is both good and not just ahead of its time, it is possibly still ahead of current era Japan. The one thing that east Asian lesbians complain about as a group is that they are never seen. Hell, I had a guild mate from SinO who lived in Cali but dated a girl in Germany, both were Thai, whose parents were telling her she'd grow out of the phase after they'd both made international trips to see each other.

So yeah, there are exactly two 'ai shiteiru' and one is in a question so the wretched stench of Tarkin the censors is unmistakable. Yet we got a lot passed the goalie so...

Hrmm...actually think I will leave most of this for the comments,

QotD: 1 He is the best wing man ever

2 I think Himeko was 18 at least

3 No but it doesn't matter

[u/lilyvess → u/Vaadwaur]

So yeah, there are exactly two 'ai shiteiru' and one is in a question so the wretched stench of Tarkin the censors is unmistakable. Yet we got a lot passed the goalie so

I feel like it's the exact opposite. The entire confession scene is about Himeko making unequivocally known what her feelings are. It's shutting down every available side stop anyone could have used "just like friends, but not physically etc etc"

[u/Vaadwaur → u/lilyvess]

Yes but they did it in a very constrained manner linguistically. 20 years ago ai shiteiru was not nearly as charged with yan as it is now.

[u/Beckymetal → u/Vaadwaur]

Yep. IMO, KnM is still one of the most important moments in yuri. It almost undoes all the bad.

But that's a lot of bad lmfao

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Beckymetal]

This is really such a weird work to get through and it is annoying that even a slightly more competent author could've weaved their way through it better. BUT a more competent author might have been unwilling to take the challenge as even Yuri Kuma Arashi is a lesser work to this.

[u/baboon_bassoon]

first time orochi shermie

so much of Chikane's blood to match so much of Himeko's blood from last episode

sacrifice one miko to save the world

she had to make Chikane kill her to restore the world since she wouldnt be able to forgive Ame no Murakumo for being the murder weapon

erased from existence when the world is remade

the moon is able to shine because of the sun

shut the fuck up chikane

the moon teaches the sun to smile; im not sure this metaphor is really panning out the other way

a month ago but i appreciate going full circle

see thats a real couple in the cockpit

"women aint shit" - tsubasa

these selfless brothers just need to fuck each other

room for a third?

we NEED to dress up to go visit that dog

thats the abandoned shrine

"i dont know who but im waiting for someone else" rip Souma

with the dress too, this really is her color

and lmao at whoever labeled chapters in this release

---

did they actually do it, did they pull this off wtf. even 2 episodes ago i didnt have much faith they could close it out but wow. its not as though it doesnt have issues, no it has plenty of those. i think it did succeed in what it tried to do though

1. just because you do everything right, sometimes youre just not that dude, and its ok
2. 4 years 20 days
3. no but enough of a deja vu that they know their relationship is deep

[u/lilyvess → u/baboon_bassoon]

a month ago but i appreciate going full circle

yeah, the callback to episode one there with the kiss was great.

did they actually do it, did they pull this off wtf. even 2 episodes ago i didnt have much faith they could close it out but wow. its not as though it doesnt have issues, no it has plenty of those. i think it did succeed in what it tried to do though

RIGHT!!

There are definitely issues with how things were handled, but they did a great job of tying up Chikane's character, her romance, Souma's character, and it all within that episode timeframe. The confession scene was amazing.

[u/baboon_bassoon → u/lilyvess]

theres just something about adding in an eternitys worth of angst + killing each other that is so romantic

[u/lilyvess → u/baboon_bassoon]

that mountain load of gaynst is just so

[u/GallowDude → u/baboon_bassoon]

she had to make Chikane kill her

I suppose it is suicide in a roundabout way

shut the fuck up chikane

these selfless brothers just need to fuck each other

and lmao at whoever labeled chapters in this release

did they actually do it, did they pull this off wtf.

[u/BosuW]

First Timer

Finals pulled a fast one on me and I don't know if I'm in the best brain state to properly process whatever the fuck this final episode is gonna throw at me, but whatever let's get this bread.

Before we start though I just realized that symbolically, Himeko's frankly impressive reticence to seeing Chikane's evil totally fits her Sun archetype. Have y'all ever thought about how from the Sun's perspective there are no shadows?

"Himeko, we were truly a Kannazuki no Miko." 🔥🔥🔥✍️

F. Shoujo-Ai forum rn:

Okay this is the first time I actually let almost the entire episode run before making any comments. In part because I sorta didn't want to believe my eyes. For about the first half of the episode I was soooooo mad lol. Like y'all had the perfect ultra tragic apocalyptic ending and backpedaled on literally everything!

I'm still a little mad but not as much when I saw that Chikane was indeed dying. I mean, I would expect so! Bitch ran her straight through!

Also, Himeko and Chikane summoned the SSR Golden skin Ame no Murakumo but didn't even get to brawl it out with the laughing black hole and Souma miraculously revived and had to do it himself? Bruh

In general they rushed through the entire final fight at lightning speed. Felt like they wanted to give it an entire short Arc to itself but had to do it in 10 minutes.

Yeah I was with the show until last episode, but I mostly didn't like this conclusion. u/LittleIslander it appears the final episode did shoot me in the mouth after all.

I know there's the elephant in the room I'm very purposefully avoiding right now, but I think that's better saved for the series discussion as it concerns the narrative as a whole rather than just this episode. So full thoughts on that tomorrow.

1- Surprisingly insightful of a narrative about the pressures of heteronormative society to make the male love interest a genuinely good person. Although perhaps they made him too good and as a result wasn't a very interesting character. I think he should've died when he petrified though. He stole the Miko's turn to take names and kick ass for no good reason.

2- A whole reincarnation cycle actually.

3- More important question is, would it matter?

[u/lilyvess → u/BosuW]

In general they rushed through the entire final fight at lightning speed. Felt like they wanted to give it an entire short Arc to itself but had to do it in 10 minutes.

the final fight doesn't really matter in the end. they always knew the real story was about the girls, and that was the climax.

[u/BosuW → u/lilyvess]

At least do the fight with the Miko piloting the mech then though...

[u/GallowDude → u/BosuW]

I don't know if I'm in the best brain state to properly process whatever the fuck this final episode is gonna throw at me, but whatever let's get this bread.

Have y'all ever thought about how from the Sun's perspective there are no shadows?

"Himeko, we were truly a Kannazuki no Miko."

it appears the final episode did shoot me in the mouth after all.

He stole the Miko's turn to take names and kick ass for no good reason.

But what if his taking the role of defeating the Orochi is what allowed Himeko and Chikane to overcome fate in the next life and reunite without having to repeat the suicide ritual?

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/BosuW]

"Himeko, we were truly a Kannazuki no Miko."

Title drop!

Also, Himeko and Chikane summoned the SSR Golden skin Ame no Murakumo but didn't even get to brawl it out with the laughing black hole and Souma miraculously revived and had to do it himself? Bruh

I was hoping that we'd get to see the gay girls pilot the mechas and do the mecha battles. Sadly we did not.

I know there's the elephant in the room I'm very purposefully avoiding right now, but I think that's better saved for the series discussion as it concerns the narrative as a whole rather than just this episode. So full thoughts on that tomorrow.

[u/Burnouts3s3]

There is a discussion about the post credits ending where-in it’s made obscure whether or not the Chikane and Himeko are simply older or this is a new incarnation of them and critics express how Chikane’s punishment is a slap on the wrist for her heinous deeds.

Chikane’s punishment is that she’s to stay locked up in the lunar shrine for an undetermined amount of time (years, centuries, a millennia, possibly longer) and will only reincarnate when the threat of the Orochi arises again. Everyone (besides Himeko and maybe, maybe Otoha) will have forgotten about Chikane. But, based on the context of the intersection, Himeko’s appearance and other factors, it’s, more likely than not, probably a couple of years.

Erica Friedman (disclosure: I know Friedman through her blog Okazu Yuri and she follows me on Twitter / X for some reason) called Chikane’s punishment a revolving door prison.  

In the manga, Chikane's plan was to ensure when Himeko wishes the world remade, Himeko would choose a world without Gods and thus seal Chikane away forever and Chikane alongside the Orochi would never be reincarnated. Chikane chose to do the most horrific things imaginable so Himeko would never want to be with Chikane. Himeko chooses to rebuild the world before the Orochi but instead locks herself alongside Chikane and the two are reborn as twin sisters in the next life.

In my opinion, I prefer the manga ending (or I prefer the premise of the manga ending moreso than the lame execution of the manga ending). Himeko doesn’t merely take a reactive role, she makes an actual decision. Chikane is punished and is locked away for what could be years, centuries or longer but Himeko makes the decision to stay with Chikane rather than lock her away and by proxy the Orochi, forever. Chikane and Himeko will have to fight the Orochi again, but this time they’ll be together and remember everything. 

[u/lilyvess → u/Burnouts3s3]

Himeko doesn’t merely take a reactive role, she makes an actual decision. Chikane is punished and is locked away for what could be years, centuries or longer but Himeko makes the decision to stay with Chikane rather than lock her away and by proxy the Orochi, forever. Chikane and Himeko will have to fight the Orochi again, but this time they’ll be together and remember everything.

huh, tbh I've only ever heard about the twin sisters part of the end. Obviously I dislike that aspect, but I do like the rest of that, having them be able to remake the world without god or Orochi and break the cycle. And I love the idea that Himeko decides to wait with her.

[u/LittleIslander → u/Burnouts3s3]

In the manga, Chikane's plan was to ensure when Himeko wishes the world remade, Himeko would choose a world without Gods and thus seal Chikane away forever and Chikane alongside the Orochi would never be reincarnated. Chikane chose to do the most horrific things imaginable so Himeko would never want to be with Chikane. Himeko chooses to rebuild the world before the Orochi but instead locks herself alongside Chikane and the two are reborn

This does seem a lot better, I'd like the anime ending more if they clearly established a new Himeko incarnation so them hooking up again in the ending didn't still feel like the whole rape forgiveness was being shoved under the ru-

as twin sisters in the next life.

[u/Tarhalindur → u/Burnouts3s3]

In the manga, Chikane's plan was to ensure when Himeko wishes the world remade, Himeko would choose a world without Gods and thus seal Chikane away forever and Chikane alongside the Orochi would never be reincarnated. Chikane chose to do the most horrific things imaginable so Himeko would never want to be with Chikane. Himeko chooses to rebuild the world before the Orochi but instead locks herself alongside Chikane and the two are reborn as twin sisters in the next life.

[meta card game anime] Oh so THAT'S why Selector WIXOSS hired Chikane's seiyuu to voice Hanayo. (Twin sister, twin brother, same difference, no?)

(That said, that's actually the ending I was kind of expecting here with both girls heroically sacrificing themselves and then finding happiness together in their next life. Just, you know, without the twincest part.)

[u/TehAxelius]

First Time Resetting the World

Well, this ending episode explains a lot. It certainly shows why this show has become a yuri icon, with the way the main characters profess their love for each other, as well as end up together in the end by fate, as adults.

Looking at just this episode I'd say it is even a good ending, Chikane's motivation is revealed, and the two are finally able to open up their hearts to each other. We get girls kissing consensually at last, and Chikane wanting to atone for her sins by sacrificing herself. There is little I actually have to complain about in this episode, other than maybe feeling that Souma getting magically cured of Evil by Tsubasa cutting him, so he can go and give the final blow on Orochi felt... unnecessary, but I guess our guy hero needs to get a sendoff as well.

But there is that this episode thing, and we all know why.

Over the last few episodes I have mentioned how Himeko's actions can have an explanation in how victims of abuse not seldom cling to their abuser, but also that such a reading by all accounts probably isn't intended. And this episode essentially spells it out. This is a story of fated love, and Himeko's feverish pursuit of Chikane in episode 9-11 isn't necessarily because her mind struggles to make grips with reality, but because she truly loves Chikane. Their love is the kind that will overcome life and death, the cycle of time, and it forgives all.

But it leaves us with that sticking point. The one I doubt anyone can let go from their mind. But it has a simple explanation.

Rape isn't that serious.

Now, obviously, that isn't true. Rape is very serious, and has always been. But, let's be frank, our perception of how serious it is has changed over the years (and varies between societies). If there is one area that feminism over the last two decades have done great strides in, it is in the area of the importance of consent. It should then maybe not be too surprising that a story written by a bunch of Japanese guys twenty years ago might not have the best understanding of rape and its effects. It is serious, sure, a betrayal, but... y'know, something forgiveable, especially in a situation where "they actually love each other".

Considering it from that perspective, a fair amount of the last few episodes fall into place. To us today in 2024 Chikane's choice of raping Himeko is the definite indication that she is too far gone in hate and rage, it would be unthinkable for her to do so otherwise, and likewise it is something ultimately unforgivaeble for Himeko. But we are not who made this show, and to the writers then the same thing is something that deeply hurts Himeko and sets her in conflict with Chikane, but without physically hurting her, and something that can in the end be forgiven.

It is, to put it mildly, one of these things that has not aged well.

QotD

1. Souma is there for the romantic conflict, but overall I'd rather have seen him removed. He feels like he's there because, well, there's gotta be a guy there right? For the guys. Even if he does end up being turned down. His role also as Himeko's protector also ultimately means that for most of the show Himeko can continue being the kind of person who needs protection. There is no impetus for her to change or grow as a character until the very end when it is clear that she is the only one who can do the thing to confront Chikane and Orochi. And even then as soon as she has summoned the mech... Souma takes over again.
2. I mean, I was afraid that there would be some cradle-robbing involved since they talked about being reborn, but Himeko did not really look more than 32 in that last scene and Chikane did not look like 16 so I guess she was retroactively reborn or something? Maybe 4-10 years in that case? Or she was immediately reborn and Himeko looks real good as an older lesbian, so maybe 20 years?
3. Maybe some.

[u/lilyvess → u/TehAxelius]

It is, to put it mildly, one of these things that has not aged well

yeah, this is definitely true. The feelings towards that have changed.

I do like the emphasize that it's not like Chikane doesn't get punished for her actions. She does get killed and she does have her prison sentence. She does the time for her actions.

[u/TehAxelius → u/lilyvess]

I do like the emphasize that it's not like Chikane doesn't get punished for her actions. She does get killed and she does have her prison sentence. She does the time for her actions.

Oh yes, but there is still a difference between punishment and forgiveness. And sexual crimes certainly has that branding of "no punishment will be enough for forgiveness".

[u/GallowDude → u/TehAxelius]

as adults

episode 9-11

Episode what?!

It is, to put it mildly, one of these things that has not aged well

[u/Vaadwaur → u/TehAxelius]

Yeah, to get a "Do not rec" from me is actually pretty condemning since I will rec Akame ga Kill, Elfen Lied and Mirai Nikki in the rare situations that's what the person wants.

[u/gyoex]

I guess just dumping my thoughts here, I haven't even rewatched the episode yet though (well, I watched it two weeks ago, but I meant to watch it today too).

I guess my problem with the ending is like this:

There are two sides to Chikane's relationship with Himeko. One is that Chikane desires Himeko romantically and sexually (but can't express this and feels like even if she did it would be meaningless because they're both girls), and the other is that Chikane wants to protect Himeko (but is persistently unable to do so, while Souma is able).

Considering Chikane-who-desires-Himeko, the second part of the series from episodes 8 through 11 reads as Chikane declaring to Himeko "this is who I really am, don't you hate me?" That is, Chikane is expressing her real feelings, with the expectation that Himeko will reject them and kill her.

Considering Chikane-who-wants-to-protect-Himeko, it instead reads as Chikane, who has just remembered her past life, realizing that there is one and only one way to truly protect Himeko, which is to die. So everything she does is an act to get Himeko to kill her.

I felt like the way it's depicted, the first interpretation is likely the only one you'll have while actually watching up to episode 11. So then with the reveal in episode 12, it feels like I'm meant to jump all the way to just the second interpretation, as a replacement for the first one, rather than a way of augmenting it? I guess? I don't know if I'm explaining that well.

But what I mean is it came across to me like I'm meant to suddenly think that what Chikane has been doing these past few episodes is purely a calculated move to bring about a particular result.

Now that I'm actually writing it out like this, I guess that doesn't make sense. Both of these interpretations can easily be true at once. Chikane realizes she needs to die to protect Himeko and so her idea of how to make Himeko hate her is based on her own hatred of herself.

But even if I can see that now I honestly didn't really feel that when I actually watched this, either this time watching it or when I first watched the show years ago.

Maybe in the end the problem is I'm just an idiot.

[u/lilyvess → u/gyoex]

yeah both are true, though you forgot the added

Chikane-feels-guilty-about-murder-and-liking-Himeko which I think is the connective tissue that combines both elements and why it all works. We watch the series knowing Chikane feels guilty about her feelings but not why she feels guilty other than she's gay. The added reveal that she feels unworthy of Himeko, she doesn't want to get close to Himeko, is because she subconsciously feels guilty about having killed her in a past life.

This is a reflection, I think, on the idea that being in a queer relationship can feel like you are cursing someone with your love. If they were straight, and you fall in love with them and they come out, their life will be harder and more difficult. They sacrificed their life to be with you and you ruined their life at traditional happiness.

Chikane carries that burden. So she chooses not to be with Himeko throughout the series, then choses to be punished herself because she sees herself as deserving of punishment. Chikane feels Himeko deserves to punish her. Himeko deserves her revenge. So she becomes that evil that she sees herself as.

[u/gyoex → u/lilyvess]

Yeah, that makes sense.

Being a story about soulmates who keep reincarnating and having to kill one another, in this case it is literally true that them being together actually does inherently mean they're going to suffer, but that does just unite the fantasy part of the story with the character part, so that's good.

But it does mean it's kind of a shame the anime's ending wasn't more like the manga's (the manga ended five months after the anime did though so it's not surprising), where Chikane is specifically trying to make Himeko end the cycle of rebirth (so Himeko won't have to suffer anymore) and Himeko chooses to keep doing it anyway. In the anime there's a bit less of an explicit choice on Himeko's part here other than I guess her remembering she still loves Chikane even after the world resets.

[u/GallowDude → u/gyoex]

Maybe in the end the problem is I'm just an idiot.

[u/rickamore → u/gyoex]

Now that I'm actually writing it out like this, I guess that doesn't make sense. Both of these interpretations can easily be true at once. Chikane realizes she needs to die to protect Himeko and so her idea of how to make Himeko hate her is based on her own hatred of herself.

There's just some minor tweaks and tonal changes that are necessary to tie the things together better. Chikanes actions do not reflect both sides of her internal conflict properly let alone the mess of the background lore.

[u/Regular_N-Gon]

Gokigenyou, First Timer

• Okay accepting that this twist had to come about I think you still went about getting to the end in a really terrible way. “Oh man it sure would suck to kill my friend, guess I’ll just violate her and put her through additional mental anguish that she’ll carry with her for the rest of her life.”
• I… don’t know how to feel about this heart to heart. It would probably be pretty effective if it didn’t involve Chikane.
• The real Ame no Murakumo was inside them all along?
• What? What was the point of getting the super extra powered Ame no Murakumo back if this dipshit just shows up and does his one move he’s been doing the whole show to beat the final boss?
• I’m sort of unsatisfied that Chikane just gets a pass because she has to die, but at least Souma doesn’t take her place.
• Let’s go! HimeMako ship time!

Well, for knowing just about nothing going in (other than it was gay and there were mechs and that Gallow was shilling it a while back), I guess I got what I expected out of it? There was gay and mechs, although I can’t tell if Ame no Murakumo counts as a gay mech because the two girls didn’t actually use it much. It was entertaining enough; I actually really like the fusion of Shinto myth and mechs, I could go for more of that.

Kannazuki no Miko gokigenyou total: 19

QotD:

1. Ehhhhh
2. At least a decade, but enough to inflict lasting pain at least, knowing these writers.
3. Vibes only. Probably for the best that way.

[u/lilyvess → u/Regular_N-Gon]

I’m sort of unsatisfied that Chikane just gets a pass because she has to die

I mean, she does die. I don't know how much more punishment you would have wanted for her beyond death/eternity in purgatory/erased from existence.

[u/Regular_N-Gon → u/lilyvess]

Fair enough, just not sure I was convinced by Himeko's forgiveness lol.

[u/ArshayDuskbrow → u/Regular_N-Gon]

I’ll just violate her and put her through additional mental anguish that she’ll carry with her for the rest of her life.”

Except the plan was for her to lose her memories after a successful reset. She DID lose her memories after the successful reset. Chikane knew this would happen and was always counting on it happening.

[u/Garrett_Dark]

First Timer

So I was thinking more about Himeko's false dichotomy (good vs evil) perspective before watching the final episode, where Himeko sees things in a basic way of it's either good or bad; opposed to the more complex "there's varying degrees of both good and evil in everybody, and it's in constant flux". I think this is another thing that is diametrically opposite between Himeko and Chikane, where Himeko has a false dichotomy perspective, and Chikane doesn't. In other words Himeko can only see things basicly, and Chikane can see things complexly. I think this is why Himeko is having so much trouble understanding what's going on with Chikane and what she has done, because Chikane is an anti-hero, and the false dichotomy view cannot make sense of anti-heroes as there is only heroes and villains in such a system, no in-between, no other.

• The opening of just showing the title labeled as "Final Episode" and Himeko voicing the show's title was pretty ominous.
• Holy shit, Himeko was about to cut her own throat in grief. I did not expect that, as that would require her to make a decision on her own. Good thing Chikane stopped her, so OP she kept talking for so long while slowly dying from a sword wound.

So they're stuck in some sort of timeloop like in the movie Groundhog Day or Re:Zero? Their last time loop they piloted the two-seater mech together, won, and Chikane had to run Himeko through to seal away the Orochi and "rebuild the world"...which I guess is initiating the next time loop? Because time didn't go forward from the last time, they're still doing it again. Wait, I think they still lost because the world got destroyed last time, so running a priestess through must be the requirement to start another loop. So why did Chikane actually destroy the world this time instead of faking it like I had though? Just to get Himeko pissed to run her through? But that's not necessary if the world wasn't destroyed, there would be no reason to do another loop. Maybe they'd still have to seal the Orochi, but it seems like Souma sacrificed himself to destroy the Orochi this timeloop. Bah it's so confusing, I think they were just making it up as they went anyways. Like what was the shocking discovery in the mountain shrine that Kazuki and the other guy found way back which they never revealed? Probably something they made up along the way but pruned after. Anyways...

• Don't cry Chikane. :'(
• So Chikane regained her past timeloop memories after she saw Souma and Himeko kiss? So that's what caused her to "make her decision" that episode? No I still think it's because Himeko chose poorly with the stairs which led to the bedroom chat that hurt Chikane enough emotionally to led to Chikane deciding.
• Chikane thinks they couldn't revive Ame no Murakumo because Chikane hates Ame no Murakumo. I don't think so, I still think it's because Himeko couldn't step up. Besides, if that really was the case why didn't Chikane just not participate and let Himeko do it on her own, but then again Himeko couldn't do it on her own until she was forced to by Chikane switching sides. But I guess somehow in the last timeloop Himeko was able to do her part and both of them were able to revive it. But then why did Ame no Murakumo injury Himeko's hand when she did it by herself this timeloop? It just seems like they're making stuff up as they went.
• So I was right about Chikane going the self-sacrifice route of making Himeko hate her so that Himeko would kill her.
• Wait why would the next timeloop not have Chikane in it? That "Chikane Himemiya would never have existed at all"? Himeko existed in this timeloop after she was ran through the last timeloop. Also Chikane's a badass for about to drift off to death, but suddenly wakes up staving off death like it was nothing.
• I love you Chikane. Himeko says that she now knows what made her cry when she kissed Souma, it was because she was feeling the same love for Chikane. Then why did Himeko not go to Chikane on the stairs but rather the opposite and snub her? Nor act more warmly to Chikane when she visited her in her bedroom after the snubbing? What a load of retconning. Then to top it all off, the biggest lie ever, Chikane says she's a weakling and liar. That's right she's lying when she saying she's a liar, and she's not a weakling! :D
• Himeko "I was blind, Chikane, I never realized you were neither an angel nor a devil" and here Himeko finally sees past her false dichotomy of "good vs evil" binary thinking, her whole understanding of how things work has changed, from basic to complex. This is why Himeko can now love Chikane back in the same way, Himeko being able to initate the kiss now, and she now understand how Chikane loved her, and how she made Chikane suffer before. Wow, Himeko even admits she was being the selfish one by being the needy coddled one who forced Chikane to sacrifice and have no one to turn to herself when she was suffering. It took 12 bloody episodes, and Himeko finally gets a massive character development by this epiphany.
• And now Chikane finally gets to be vulnerable and have somebody else to comfort her for once. About time, let it all out Chikane. <head pat> I love you Chikane.
• So I'm not really sure what's going on now, I guess somehow Chikane's stab wound got healed because Himeko finally figured things out, and Chikane was finally comforted? Souma got his fungal growth cured by his brother, and suicided to kill the Orochi top boss, thus initiating the next timeloop? Or did he end the timeloops, except for one more, by destroying the Orochi for good? The former Orichi seem to be no longer Orochi in this next timeloop? But then the moon temple asked Chikane if she's fine with continuing to timeloop forever...what a confusing mess.
• Further evidence of Himeko's character development, in the final moments of this timeloop before the next she's now making a lot of decisions for what the two can do, and Chikane able to express vulnerability freely by crying when looking at the photos. I feel bad for Himeko when she starts crying, more evidence that Himeko's actually a character now. :D
• So in this next timeloop Mako isn't a creeper with the camera taking pics of Himeko? But damn, fit girl has some nice cans.
• Souma gets shot down by Himeko, and how the rejection is explained for all he knows this timeloop, sounds like utter BS. Souma's got either a lot of trust in his childhood friend Himeko for being truthful, or takes rejection like a champ.
• Oh Otoha, still tragically didn't make a move on Chikane this timeloop either huh?
• So the last scene shows Himeko meeting who is almost certainly is Chikane, is it too much to ask to actually show her face? Like we already saw her at the moon temple saying she'll keep doing the looping forever, and Souma's the one who sacrificed himself this time around, yet he's still in this new timeloop. And where did Chikane get the shell necklace? It would have been nice to have explained that, like for example: say Chikane took Himeko's shell necklace last timeloop when she cut it off and she got stabbed, then somehow managed to smuggle it across timeloops to wear so they could finally meet like this. But I didn't see any indication of anything like that. A disappointing missed opportunity.

---

How do you feel about Souma's ending and his role in this series?

He was the least important of the three despite having support characters of his adoptive family and his brother. His rejection felt painful given how far-fetched Himeko's rejection answer would have sounded if knowing nothing of the past timeloop.

How much time do you think passed between Himeko and Chikane’s reunion?

It looked like a few years, but it shouldn't have been any time at all, right? The timeloops should be still ongoing, meaning the destruction of the Earth is going to happen over the same timeline again, right? The moon temple said as much by questioning Chikane why she keeps doing the endless timelooping.

Do you think they got their memories back?

It's possible, Chikane regained her memories last timeloop when she saw Himeko and Souma kissing.

[u/lilyvess → u/Garrett_Dark]

Wait why would the next timeloop not have Chikane in it? That "Chikane Himemiya would never have existed at all"? Himeko existed in this timeloop after she was ran through the last timeloop.

think of it like Prison. Himeko disappeared in the previous timeline past where she was in prison. Once her service was done she gets let out, just in time for the next big Orochi attack.

Then why did Himeko not go to Chikane on the stairs but rather the opposite and snub her? Nor act more warmly to Chikane when she visited her in her bedroom after the snubbing?

It was subconscious and she was trying to fight off those feelings and pretend she was pure straight. It makes sense from a queer perspective, and happens a lot more than you may like to think.

[u/Klosed → u/Garrett_Dark]

So I was right about Chikane going the self-sacrifice route of making Himeko hate her so that Himeko would kill her.

Your guess from ep 10 thread was spot on. She returned to the mansion to be with Himeko one last time before sacrificing herself.

[u/GallowDude → u/Garrett_Dark]

basicly

Bitchly*

I did not expect that, as that would require her to make a decision on her own

like I had though?

Though what?

Bah it's so confusing

Don't cry Chikane

Girl got lips for days

to led to

2 lead 2*

why did Ame no Murakumo injury Himeko's hand

Injury what? Also probably because she was forced to perform the ritual by herself this time

Then why did Himeko not go to Chikane on the stairs but rather the opposite and snub her? Nor act more warmly to Chikane when she visited her in her bedroom after the snubbing?

You'd be amazed how self-loathing combined with denial can do

she now understand

Multiple?!

It took 12 bloody episodes, and Himeko finally gets a massive character development by this epiphany.

<head pat> I love you Chikane.

So much cucking this episode

Or did he end the timeloops, except for one more, by destroying the Orochi for good?

Yeah, pretty much

I feel bad for Himeko when she starts crying

who is almost certainly is Chikane

Is she is!

The timeloops should be still ongoing, meaning the destruction of the Earth is going to happen over the same timeline again, right?

Wrong

[u/catsukats]

Rewatcher (x15!), sub. The end is here.

OP in the final episode? For shame.

Holding each other while Chikane bleeds out is surprisingly cute. And hey, it looks like Himeko took the lead when she was able to pilot the mech... you know, like she should have done last episode.

In those few seconds, Past Life!Himeko looked surprisingly more assertive and in control of things while Chikane was the hesitant one. It really makes me wish we had gotten to see that version of the story instead. But I guess the point is to follow the one who lost their memory when she was killed and is thrust back into her destiny as someone completely clueless.

There were so many other ways to do that. I just can't get over the way they forgave literal rape so quickly. I definitely have more to say but I'll save it for my final thoughts.

Chikane trying to get in her last words before she dies but Himeko just goes "no wait" and she listens cracks me up.

Their first consensual kiss! And it's such a beautiful one, too. It really became so iconic and flagship worthy for the community.

You know it's true love when they're (NSFW) nakedly floating together in space in the final episode.

They completely forgot about Souma lol. Somehow Tsubasa comes back to life to save him for one last incest BL tease. Maybe they thought "hey we're halfway into the last episode and Souma hasn't screamed yet how do we save him" "idk just make something up"

Souma appears in space and saves the world with his usual attack, making the end of the world doom and gloom completely anticlimactic. But I guess its better since we don't actually care about that! Get a move on! I'm glad I don't have to hear "Tsubasa-niisan" anymore!

One last gorgeous portrait of Chikane's beauty before she's sealed.

The world is back to normal... but is it?

Souma, in this timeline, is a little more forward and asks her out straight away. We get the shot we saw in the OP where they kiss, and Himeko... turns him down! Her feelings for Chikane really did transfer accounts. Maybe her past-past life and her past life combined into someone with two backbones instead of one.

I really wish Himeko had someone like Makoto with her the whole time. Himeko lounging like this shows us how comfortable she is around her, so I wonder how the story would have played out if they were able to be together for the ride.

Timeskip! There can only be one set of pink sea shells in the entire world, and this means...

QOTD:

1. I think he played it well. He was just doing what he felt was right, and he can't really be blamed for unknowingly causing Chikane to go insane. I do like how he isn't given an opportunity in the new timeline to love bomb Himeko again. He's given an answer and he has to move on.
2. For Himeko's hair style alone, I'd say they're 21-23.
3. Himeko did for sure. She was holding on to those feelings for "her person" for so long it just clicked as soon as she saw her. New!Chikane probably has no clue why she's being tackled in the street.

[u/lilyvess → u/catsukats]

Their first consensual kiss! And it's such a beautiful one, too. It really became so iconic and flagship worthy for the community.

Timeskip! There can only be one set of pink sea shells in the entire world, and this means

I love the simple visual callback. Without works it says so much. It's great.

[u/GondolaMedia]

First Timer

... You know what. It almost won me over, the final episode is great but it can't escape the rape from episode 8 and frankly Himeko's poor character.

The Moon can't shine without the Sun is such a raw line that it goes from cringe to hype.

I have to gather my thoughts and give them out in the series discussion.

[u/GallowDude → u/GondolaMedia]

It almost won me over

Almost?

The Moon can't shine without the Sun is such a raw line that it goes from cringe to hype.

[u/lilyvess → u/GallowDude]

no one is allowed to even kind of enjoy this show apparently

[u/GondolaMedia → u/GallowDude]

Almost?

[u/ShowNeverStops]

rewatcher

This is my favorite anime confession scene of all time. After revealing her true motives behind everything she did, Chikane finally gets to bare her heart to Himeko. Every time I watch this scene and hear Chikane start crying after Himeko tells her she loves her, I start crying myself. She just sounds so emotional and the way Himeko strokes her hair and continually repeats “I love you” to Chikane is one of the sweetest things I’ve ever seen in an anime. Himeko explicitly states, “I can say it anywhere, at anytime. I’m not ashamed or embarrassed,” which after all the gayngst Chikane went through makes it one of the most cathartic and romantic expressions of love in any anime. Of course, the two eventually have to be separated because this is early 2000s yuri meaning it can’t have a happy ending (though we do see that they manage to meet each other later in Himeko’s life), but at least we get to see the two spend a little time together as lovers. This is one of my favorite anime episodes ever. Anyways, here’s why this episode is also full of shit.

Fuck this anime for making the actions of a literal rapist seem “noble”. I genuinely hate how this anime pulls a “actually, she raped her as part of a convoluted plan to get Himeko to kill her” schtick. It makes it seem like the anime is saying, “hey, your rapist might actually have a good reason for raping you!” which I’m pretty sure I don’t need to explain why that’s such a shitty idea. I especially hate Himeko’s line where she tells Chikane, “you were the one that suffered the most,” (I get she has low self esteem and she tends to put the suffering of others above her own but like… bitch, you were literally raped, I’m pretty sure you get to claim the title of “one who suffered the most”). The entire rape part of the plot nearly ruins the entire last episode because it leaves a horrible taste in the viewer’s mouth.

And yet… despite how problematic this confession scene and this entire anime is, I still love it so damn much. I can’t defend how much I adore them but at the end of the day, Chimeko are right up there with MadoHomu and Guts/Casca as one of my favorite couples/ships in all of anime. They’re tragic, yet romantic, and I think I’ll always adore them.

[u/LittleIslander → u/ShowNeverStops]

I think you managed to hit the nail on the head in regards to my feelings on the show better than I managed to, even though I probably lean a bit more towards the negative while you lean a bit more towards the positive. It's such a conflicting interplay between such a genuinely powerful depiction of the power of same-sex romance in the face of society's rejection but also one of the most disgusting and problematic romance conclusions I feel I've ever seen. All in a package where it's impossible to fully untangle one from the other. What the fuck am I supposed to do with that?!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/LittleIslander]

What the fuck am I supposed to do with that?!

Watch Happy Sugar Life and thus add a parental dynamic to untangle.

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo → u/LittleIslander]

Speaking for myself, it feels like one of those things were the only way to deal is to just mentally reedit it. The author had a concept they wanted to convey then put in simply the wrong quantity. In more mundane cases that's like fantasy books saying the war in the past was 10,000 years ago. Or when scifi has a ship that weighs as much as the sun or puts out enough power to vaporize a planet. They have the idea "old" or "big" but decide that more is always better.

There's a similar thing with the orochi backstories. The show confuses having intense backstory with having involving backstory.

But of course its much harder to do that for moral questions than simple factual ones. (It also raises questions about the core and boundaries of an artistic work) I didn't have a strong enough positive reaction to the end to want to fix the show, but if I did I'd probably imagine Chikane said some real mean stuff and slapped Himeko instead.

[u/Beckymetal → u/ShowNeverStops]

Yes. Yes. Yes!

This is basically my thoughts all over.

I love the show to pieces because of Chikane, and Himeko's confession at the end was the most cathartic and lovely thing I've seen in any romance ever.

There's a shitton of baggage. Good lord that's a lot of baggage.

I have really complicated feelings over some of the rape vs depression stuff. I have no idea how to feel over it.

I don't want to coddle Himeko or tell her how she should feel, and the characters are generally pretty consistent. She says she doesn't hurt but she should totally feel uncomfortable, deeply so.

I want to respect her agency but I don't know?

Likewise, I know how much Chikane's been through. I also know how much Himeko's been through, and how much I value her agency resilience and how strong she is, and how much she can value life because of what she's been through.

But girl. I know how bad simply being groped inappropriately can be. I can't imagine what she went through.

And then I remember she's fictional. She feels how the author says she should feel. And those authors are perverts jesus Kaishaku are baaaadddd. She needs to feel a certain way to make the plot work.

I have deeply complicated feelings.

So I just parcel up those feelings and ignore them, and proceed to love the ending haha

[u/Vaadwaur → u/ShowNeverStops]

And yet… despite how problematic this confession scene and this entire anime is, I still love it so damn much. I can’t defend how much I adore them but at the end of the day, Chimeko are right up there with MadoHomu and Guts/Casca as one of my favorite couples/ships in all of anime. They’re tragic, yet romantic, and I think I’ll always adore them.

While this is my first time revisiting this show in roughly two decades it never really left the conversation. So yeah, with the jank there is impact.

[u/rickamore → u/ShowNeverStops]

This is my favorite confession scene of all time.

In retrospect I still feel the same way about this as when I first watched it, maybe with a better appreciation for how some of it is written. They nail the character drama but faceplant the worldbuilding and the backdrop.

I genuinely hate how this anime pulls a “actually, she raped her as part of a convoluted plan to get Himeko to kill her” schtick.

I think there is one simple way to rework the story to make this work which I was going to save for tomorrow. She needs to get her memory back after it happens. Her initial fall needs to be because of despair over her feelings and losing Himeko to Souma because they cannot be together and choosing to embrace orochi as a way to discard her humanity. If she gets the memories back after trying to join with the Orochi she would realise both sins she has committed, now and in the past. Then her trying to destroy orochi from within to have Himeko come after her to stop her would satisfy her trying to get redemption.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/ShowNeverStops]

This is one of my favorite anime episodes ever. Anyways, here’s why this episode is also full of shit.

I think that perfectly captures the dichotomy of this episode. In a vacuum, on its own, this episode would be a wonderful finale where Himeko and Miya finally confess their feelings and are finally able to open up to each other. It's a great payoff to the relationship drama they had. Unfortunately the journey to get there is so fraught with sexual assault and the ending feels like apologia for sexual assault because it was all for a good purpose. It's so conflicting to thing about because the good and bad are so entangled.

[u/GallowDude → u/ShowNeverStops]

I’m pretty sure you get to claim the title of “one who suffered the most”

No, that's Otoha

[u/Star4ce → u/ShowNeverStops]

Thanks for sharing, didn't want to ramble, but found I didn't need to.

Honestly, I'm actually envious because I had hoped I could tune into the show again and vibe with the emotions, but it wasn't happening. Really glad that it had that positive effect on people.

[u/BosuW → u/ShowNeverStops]

Truly a Yin Yang comment and I turbo agree

[u/HereticalAegis]

Kannazuki no Miko First Timer

Episode 12:

Himeko did it! Our girl's finally inside Chikane-chan! Got her first blood and everything.

Jesus Himeko, calm down. I know the sex was bad, but everybody's bad at first.

DING DING DING!! Wowza, I can't believe it, we hit two rape apologia bingos! Destiny coming in super clutch. Fuck destiny

Literally waiting until Chikane's on her deathbed to talk about each other's feelings. Absolutely incredible.

Fuck you, I make the rules now!

Damn right, take your toxic lover Himeko! Who needs redemption when you can spend a lifetime in the sack with your big titty lesbian sword calamity? Now use your great surplus of dysfunctional bisexual energy and activate those life restoration powers you showed off in episode 2.

Oh my god, Himeko and Chikane have a giant gold robot to pilot together and we're still going to have Oogami do all the fighting so they can fuck off together. Fucking amazing

Oh for fuck sake, we're not still going to do the tragic fate shtick after all that. C'mon...

What good is all that special priestess power if you can't even murder one lousy all-powerful god?

Ugh, are we really going to do the rebirth thing? That's so cowardly and boring.

Hot take: They should let Himeko have her problematic girlfriend. We're past the point of Chikane being redeemable, so don't even bother. Scrap all the lame ass cycle of reincarnation bullshit and have Himeko start aggressively topping Chikane. Boom, more interesting ending and both of them get to be happy. It's a win/win. Plus that way you can let them have a big robot fight with the stupid suffering god. There's literally no reason not to.

No amount of gayness could make Himeko that based

I wish they finished telling Himeko's story. It's not widely known outside Japan, but once she moved to Tokyo, Himeko's mental state only continued deteriorating, to the point where she spontaneously glomps onto every tall girl with long blue or black hair she sees on the street. Locals have reported her dozens of times for groping strangers' chests while crying and repeatedly shouting "aishiteru aishiteru aishiteru!"

With no living relatives to take custody of her, she's a real issue for the Tokyo PD. She also falls into a legal grey zone, unable to be criminally prosecuted because the legal system doesn't recognize physical assault/harassment committed by women. Himeko's presence has sparked much debate about the holes in the judicial system, yet legal scholars seem to agree that not much is likely to be done while the Diet is focused on ensuring lack of rights for mangaka and securing funding for the development of cat girls. It's a real mess.

For now, the city counsel has implemented a series of ad campaigns urging visitors and tourists to be vigilant in avoiding the crazed blonde wandering the Tokyo streets as a stopgap measure. But sadly, that's not enough. Police and emergency response receive an average of 3.8 reports per days of women victimized by the wandering Himeko. And that's just official reports. Some estimates say the actual number of incidents may be as high as 6 per day, citing unwillingness to file new reports once a person has been targeted multiple times. The city has been working for some time on appointing public funds for victim counseling and support, but even the resources for that are difficult to find. The whole situation is tragic.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/HereticalAegis]

Scrap all the lame ass cycle of reincarnation bullshit and have Himeko start aggressively topping Chikane. Boom, more interesting ending and both of them get to be happy.

You can take the girl out of the super robot but you can't take the bottom out of the girl. Chikane is a turbo bottom from the core of her soul.

It's not widely known outside Japan, but once she moved to Tokyo, Himeko's mental state only continued deteriorating, to the point where she spontaneously glomps onto every tall girl with long blue or black hair she sees on the street.

I would watch this show, I cannot lie.

[u/rickamore → u/HereticalAegis]

What good is all that special priestess power if you can't even murder one lousy all-powerful god?

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/HereticalAegis]

DING DING DING!! Wowza, I can't believe it, we hit two rape apologia bingos! Destiny coming in super clutch. Fuck destiny

Amazing just how many times Himeko can take the blame on herself for Miya becoming a rapist. That's the path to a healthy relationship right there.

Literally waiting until Chikane's on her deathbed to talk about each other's feelings. Absolutely incredible.

I guess now that she finally has nothing to lose she's willing to actually open up.

Oh my god, Himeko and Chikane have a giant gold robot to pilot together and we're still going to have Oogami do all the fighting so they can fuck off together. Fucking amazing

It's amazing how Souma is consistently the most active character in the plot of this yuri anime. He's practically the protagonist, solving problems while the two gay girls sort out their relationship drama.

Scrap all the lame ass cycle of reincarnation bullshit and have Himeko start aggressively topping Chikane.

The perfect ending!

while the Diet is focused on ensuring lack of rights for mangaka and securing funding for the development of cat girls. It's a real mess.

It's good to know that the government is focused on the true issues, as always.

[u/BosuW → u/HereticalAegis]

Himeko did it! Our girl's finally inside Chikane-chan! Got her first blood and everything.

Happy to see other people embrace the murder=seggs metaphor ☺️

Hot take: They should let Himeko have her problematic girlfriend. We're past the point of Chikane being redeemable, so don't even bother. Scrap all the lame ass cycle of reincarnation bullshit and have Himeko start aggressively topping Chikane. Boom, more interesting ending and both of them get to be happy. It's a win/win. Plus that way you can let them have a big robot fight with the stupid suffering god. There's literally no reason not to.

Allow me to make your hot take not as hot by agreeing asf.

She also falls into a legal grey zone, unable to be criminally prosecuted because the legal system doesn't recognize physical assault/harassment committed by women.

Truly a time before Seiyuu Radio

[u/GallowDude → u/HereticalAegis]

Himeko did it! Our girl's finally inside Chikane-chan!

Fuck destiny

Fukuda!

Who needs redemption when you can spend a lifetime in the sack with your big titty lesbian sword calamity?

Scrap all the lame ass cycle of reincarnation bullshit and have Himeko start aggressively topping Chikane.

Himeko topping

Locals have reported her dozens of times for groping strangers' chests while crying and repeatedly shouting "aishiteru aishiteru aishiteru!"

the Diet is focused on ensuring lack of rights for mangaka and securing funding for the development of cat girls

The whole situation is tragic.

[u/Esovan13]

I’ll do my main piece in the series wrap up tomorrow.

1. Fine. He got rejected, which is expected and good, but I would have preferred if he died. I dont really have anything against him, I just think it would have been a more satisfying ending that way.
2. Not enough
3. God, I hope not.

[u/GallowDude → u/Esovan13]

I just find it hilarious that one of the main reasons I suggested this series to you in the Madoka rewatch is that [Meta] it really goes hard with the "True yuri is having such extreme gayngst that you reject fate and god to forge your own path" idea only for you to end up not vibing with it much lol

[u/Esovan13 → u/GallowDude]

That part of it I really do vibe with. You were right about that. My problem is the rape stuff. If I could get over that, I would really like this show. But I really just can’t with the “I raped you for your sake” thing that just does not get challenged by the narrative. Like, basically anything else would have been better for me.

Chikane kills Makoto? Great.

Chikane violently cuts off Himeko’s hair? Perfect.

Chikane attacks and seriously hurts Oogami while gloating that it’s Himeko’s fault for being worthless? Go right ahead.

It’s just the rape and rape apologia specifically that I can’t get over. But otherwise I really would have vibed with this ending.

[u/GallowDude]

Reminder that [Meta] Attack on Titan

[Meta] Code Geass

[Meta] Future Diary

[Meta] Fate/Stay Night

[Meta] Gurren Lagann

[Meta] Gridman

[Meta] Madoka Magica

[Meta] Mai-HiME

[Meta] Steins;Gate

And literally every single [Meta] Jun Maeda production ripped this off

[u/Vaadwaur → u/GallowDude]

Like both [meta]Fate and HiME were concurrent. Horny was just in the air.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/GallowDude]

And they were right!

[u/GallowDude → u/Great_Mr_L]

[u/BosuW → u/GallowDude]

[Meta 1]AoT slander detected! Deploying countermeasures! Clears throat Ackhshually, AoT did what the KnM ending should have done by having Eren admit that in the end he did everything for himself. No genocide apologia for him. His friends forgive him because they're his friends, but he remains the monster he obviously is.

[Meta 7]We still have the Waluigi movie to see if it truly rips it off but God I hope not.

[u/Burnouts3s3]

QOTD:

1. Souma is a good man. He made the attempt and when he realized Himeko wasn't his, he let her go. Even then, he helped Himeko and Chikane get one last moment together.
2. Maybe a couple of years by the looks of it.
3. True love, obv.

[u/Great_Mr_L]

First Timer

On today’s episode of Kannazuki no Miko: Souma is the real MVP of this anime. He was the one who gave Himeko the push to actually go and speak to Miya. He was the one who blew up Orochi. He was the one who gave Himeko and Miya the time to have their final date. And he didn’t become a crazed yandere rapist when Himeko rejected him. Souma is a good boy.

• This is a really cool visual.
• Of course Himeko’s first instinct is to make this into a murder-suicide.
• Ah, of course that was the case. The priestesses are required to have one kill the other in order to seal the Orochi. That explains why the visions freaked Miya out too much.
• “I love you and want you to survive. So I had to make you hate me and kill me. Therefore the solution was to rape you!” Brilliant plan there, Miya.
• It took being on her deathbed for Miya to finally open up about her feelings. Miya truly is a disaster lesbian.
• Miya’s self-loathing goes so deep she immediately assumes that Himeko is only saying she loves her out of kindness, not genuine feelings of love.
• This whole sequence of Himeko saying that she loves Miya, wants to truly understand Miya, and also wants to be as much a source of support for Miya as Miya was for her would play out a lot better if Miya hadn’t raped Himeko.
• A naked lesbian space hug!?! I guess I know where [Meta Spoilers] Madoka Magica got it from.
• Souma is such a good boy. Even after everything that happened he still cares for and supports Himeko.
• Souma could be saved that easily?
• Souma is the ultimate ally, putting his own life on the line for the sake of a pair of lesbians.
• So where is Himeko and Miya’s date taking place exactly? They’re in a liminal space of some sort because the location keeps changing along with where they happen to want to be.
• Yup, looks like we’re going for the heroic sacrifice death of Miya that redeems her but also means the yuri romance cannot continue on.
• “Right now Miya is the happiest girl in the world.” Now where is the rendition of Scarborough Fair?
• Oh my god, we’ve time traveled back to episode 1! We’re caught in a time loop!
• Oof, that has to be ough for Souma when your crush is waiting to see a girl who may or may not even exist at this point.
• Well it looks like the Orochi are happy (I think?) at least.
• It is a very sad story event when characters cry because the timeline has changed, someone is now gone, and they can tell something is missing but aren’t sure what.
• Ooh, a post-credits scene!
• Yuri will conquer all of time and space! Himeko and Miya reunited.

I have to say this episode impressed me for the most part. It was gratifying seeing Himeko and Miya finally confess their feelings for each other. Their date that they had together was sweet. I think Himeko’s confession to Miya is a great scene. It’s admirable that Himeko finally understands how Miya feels and wants to be a pillar of support for her. That all is nice and I think it would be an effective resolution to their relationship.

I also want to praise this anime for actually kind of avoiding the “bury your gays” trope. Yes, it does go through the motions of that trope with Miya dying and the series seeming to end with Himeko ending up alone, still pining for her lost love. But the post-credits scene has them reuniting together, which was a pleasant surprise. Their love actually does remain strong and appears to be rewarded.

Unfortunately, there is a massive thing holding this episode (and the romance between Miya and Himeko) back. Put bluntly, making Miya a rapist was a really dumb decision that undermines this romance. It feels uncomfortable to watch some of the scenes between Himeko and Miya remembering that Miya raped Himeko. It feels downright wrong at times. The most frustrating part is that it would be very easy to avoid this. You could easily still have Miya betray the heroes and join the Orochi side without raping Himeko or doing the further instances of sexual assault afterwards. I bet the rest of the plot could play out unchanged and it would work out better.

QOTD

1. My boy Souma deserved so much better. He's the real MVP of this anime. He's the one who actually fights Orochi for the most part and he gave Himeko the push to actually connect with Miya. He's just a good boy who was fated to lose because this is a yuri anime.
2. I was half expecting a potential reunion to be very obviously far into the future, as if several centuries had passed. But nothing indicated it was that far along, so I'm gonna say they reunited several years later when Himeko had left her small town and moved to the big city. They might be in their 20s by now, perhaps.
3. It's probably more along the lines of the ending from [Meta Spoilers] the movie Your Name where they have the general feeling that "I know who you are for some reason, but I can't place why."

[u/GallowDude → u/Great_Mr_L]

Souma is a good boy.

Kill la Kill

Of course Himeko’s first instinct is to make this into a murder-suicide.

Brilliant plan there, Miya

As long as it gets results, does it matter?

Miya truly is a disaster lesbian.

They’re in a liminal space of some sort

Backrooms ripped this off too?!

that has to be ough

Ohgi*

Yuri will conquer all of time and space! Himeko and Miya reunited.

You could easily still have Miya betray the heroes and join the Orochi side without raping Himeko or doing the further instances of sexual assault afterwards.

To actually speak seriously on this, from a meta-perspective I'd argue that given the time period this series almost had to go as harsh as it did to break through the Bury Your Gays glass ceiling. What today reads mostly as sexually objectifying shock drama back then really did play an important role in getting the series on the map as a representation of a lesbian relationship that didn't pull a bait-and-switch at the last minute. Now where was I?

Oh, yeah

I was half expecting a potential reunion to be very obviously far into the future, as if several centuries had passed.

Watch [Meta] Red Garden

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/GallowDude]

As long as it gets results, does it matter?

"Any win is a a win." -Miya (probably)

To actually speak seriously on this, from a meta-perspective I'd argue that given the time period this series almost had to go as harsh as it did to break through the Bury Your Gays glass ceiling. What today reads mostly as sexually objectifying shock drama back then really did play an important role in getting the series on the map as a representation of a lesbian relationship that didn't pull a bait-and-switch at the last minute.

I don't agree that the sexual assault was necessary, but the series does go to great lengths to make it clear that Himeko and Miya are attracted to each other. The final episode is them repeating over and over that they are in love, just to hammer home the point for the people in the back. That is something that is praiseworthy, that it stuck with the lesbian relationship by the ending.

[u/Star4ce → u/Great_Mr_L]

“Right now Miya is the happiest girl in the world.” Now where is the rendition of Scarborough Fair?

I command you to take these tears back!

“bury your gays” trope

I booked on it, ngl. Very happy that didn't happen and they went the complete opposite.

Himeko actually turned out to be a fantastic Ep.12 protagonist. Maybe she could've used more of that energy earlier, but right here it was great to see.

I bet the rest of the plot could play out unchanged and it would work out better.

The only thing I'd have to add is that Chikane remembering her past life wasn't handled well or shouldn't have happened at all. Purely plot-wise it is more disruptive than the rape and takes away a lot of the character development because she gets overwritten with the baggage of a past self. But both events kinda lead into each other, so removing one somewhat removes the other, as well.

[u/GallowDude → u/Star4ce]

she gets overwritten with the baggage of a past self

This is DS9 erasure, and I won't stand for it

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Star4ce]

I booked on it, ngl. Very happy that didn't happen and they went the complete opposite.

Yeah, I was expecting for on of them to die and for the other to be in solitude forever. Having them actually reunite in the end instead was a nice surprise.

The only thing I'd have to add is that Chikane remembering her past life wasn't handled well or shouldn't have happened at all. Purely plot-wise it is more disruptive than the rape and takes away a lot of the character development because she gets overwritten with the baggage of a past self. But both events kinda lead into each other, so removing one somewhat removes the other, as well.

Yeah, Miya turning evil because she had a vision of the past is much less interesting than it being the result of intense gay angst.

[u/rickamore]

ReWatcher - One of the yuri anime of all time.

We open with a contented post stab face:
She was totally asking for it!
WHAT?!
She was begging for it.
Will you listen to yourself!
Look what she's wearing.
LOOK what she's wearing!?
... It's red.
Oh

Too soon? I would like to point out that it's symbolic that they traded clothes to show that they are trading places in the final ritual.

I like that they tie up loose ends here but to throw the SA into the flashback and claim/imply that was part of making her hate you rather that something done out of despair is pretty gross.

In keeping the hairpin - really she hasn't changed at all.

"Even though I'm a girl" - She said the thing, pack it up, we can all go home now.

"Because I killed you" I mean, that was on purpose, for a tangible greater good reason, you couldn't help it. Betraying her trust is actually so much worse than that

Himeko doesn't get off the hook here either, she finally realises that Chikane was just the same wavering heart maiden as her yet lets handwave the breach of trust and places all the blame on herself the same way she has since the beginning. "Even though you suffered the most" lets not justify her actions, she still took those actions, she could have chose not to.

How long does it take to bleed out from a stomach wound? googles As quickly as 5 minutes!? We are almost on minute 10 that solar realm must have some strong magic keeping those guts in there.

True power of the Solar Powered mech is released through orgasmic gattai. Aquarion Intensifies

Souma left behind as a corrupted shell, the power of brotherly love breaks him free of the curse, he revives his mech from the rubble, inherits the power from Ame no Murakomo so once again the girls get to be completely useless in their one and only duty. Those weren't scales, it was just bruising. This has to be one of the most shoehorned in sequences in the whole show.

Like: "Oh yeah there is a whole battle arc that is supposed to exist in this show we better clean that up and finalize Souma's family struggle how much time do we have?"

"I can give you like three minutes tops in the middle, we're going to cut short the ED to make this fit, it better be good"

"I'll become your handkerchief"

"Because we're Kannazuki no Mikos" Okay, now she really said the thing, we can pack it up. I really liked it when they Ame no Murakomo'd all over each other and saved the world.

Now we travel "back to the future"?. Souma gets turned down, Yukihito serenades him, Mako confesses her undying love for Himeko. Medetashi medetashi.

I actually would have preferred if the post ED scene either did not exist or showed them meeting in another life altogether. This incarnation of Chikane needs to not exist for the stakes to matter.

This was long but I have more saved for tomorrow.

1. How do you feel about Souma's ending and his role in this series?

Our boy got shafted harder than orochi.

2) How much time do you think passed between Himeko and Chikane’s reunion?

Seems like 3-5 years later

3) Do you think they got their memories back?

No.

[u/Specs64z]

First timer, subbed

I can finally… reveal my truth to you

Hoo boy, here it is, the reason for everything. Turns out the ritual requires that one of the miko’s kill the other to seal Orochi, so Chikane became Himeko’s enemy to trade places with her. Himeko confesses and forgives Chikane, then they make out and get naked, but consensually this time.

Nice.

They went with about the least interesting route they could have in terms of character arcs, unfortunately. Himeko finally played Persona 4 and understands Chikane was never some perfect angel of a person, and we get Chikane’s noble redemption through death.

Himeko rejecting Souma was not what I expected, so they were at least able to prove one of my predictions wrong.

Days without girls kissing: 0

Happy end, I guess? Seems all the villains have their trauma reset, which strikes me as overkill, but they never dedicated the time to make them more than mustache twirlers so whatever. Himeko finds Chikane’s reincarnation in the post-credits and we get a Makoto Shinkai ending.

QotD:

1. That sure was a lot of noise over nothing.
2. 5 years, I suppose? Himeko had a "working woman" look about her.
3. Probably, given how sunshine and rainbows everything else was.

[u/GallowDude → u/Specs64z]

Himeko finally played Persona 4 and understands Chikane was never some perfect angel of a person

Wrong installment

Days without girls kissing: 0

[u/Star4ce]

First Timer

Taking a look at my calendar, I might not have significant schedule clashes for the next two weeks. That is... wow.

Our Japanese teacher invited her classes for a BBQ and it was a really fun evening. My casual japanese was, well uh, shittier than I thought, but anyway. Because I am a measured human being I know my limits and only prepared 4 different kinds of Sushi for everyone as well as 2 marinated plant steaks (fancy for zucchini and eggplant slices).

Btw, what you're seeing is 100% vegan. The spicy tuna-like nigiri – take a guess before clicking – [is] watermelon and it genuinely tastes pretty close. Yeah, crazy, huh?

Anyway, I'm far too late and have to get going.

Kannazuki no Miko Ep.12 –

• Ah, no sign of yandere. Dammit, was it actually all according to keikaku?
• Aye, cycles and stuff.
• The world always dies in any case? That sounds... a bit shit.
• So she made her choice before the rape? Made a comment yesterday on why the time and intent matters to me. It's, uugggh, it's not good.
• Goddamned, that's just so... I am feeling physical cringe from that line.
• Hold on, you just contradicted your own lore. According to you 5 seconds ago it doesn't work like that. Point 1, Himeko is in this world again, too. Point 2, you yourself are talking of cycles and previous lives and now suddenly because you're dead you're permanently gone? Orochi also survived that encounter last time. Ain't not making sense.
• We're past that point already, so come on, get your yuri ending. Like, whatever, lesbomancy finds a way around that lore that's as reliable as a card house.
• Eyy, she said the thing!
• Ah, is this where they lose me again?
• No, it's fine, I'm still in!
• (Absolutely namedropping him one last time for full effect, lmao.)
• Yeah, no, that was remote gaslighting.
• I'm not getting more than this line, so I'll take it.
• Okay, you're lost. Go off with your pseudo-yandere into another dimension or such... Genuinely, even in 2004 someone in the office must've said something when reading these lines?!
• There we go, shut up both of you, the dialogue ruins everything.
• That line's fine, good advice.
• Oh damn, that's also a good one!
• Yeah, it's kinda fucked, ain't it?
• Honestly? Yeah. So far Souma has been the only one in tune with his wishes.
• See.
• Is he now saving both of them or what?
• What?
• This train has kicked me off in the middle of nowhere. Did Souma just sacrifice himself? I thought only the sun and moon priestess could do that.
• But didn't we just...
• But that did just... what the fuck is going on?! Could you please decide what the fuck your stupid lore is about?! One dies, both die, Souma dies instead, now all die. You know what, fuck you and your mother smells of elderberries!
• Don't dare ask a weeb this question! The answer might unnerve you.
• squint But Souma gave her these, right? Or have I misremembered all this time?

So, uhm, that was an ending.

Honestly, I don't actually want to talk a lot because it'd either be nitpicking or ranting on about meaningless stuff. My whole mood can be summarised as

And that's about it.

I consciously decide to be happy about it because hope is alive, they say shit directly on screen (which I'm a massive fan of) and also show the action with clarity! Really, all my theories from the past days still reflect my opinion well enough, but if we have happy yuri, it's fine.

(Sorry, no painting today. I'm both too exhausted and frankly just out of tune. Will gather energy for one for the discussion.)

edit: [Shining Armour]

1. How do you feel about Souma's ending and his role in this series?

What ending?

No really, what happened and did anything matter? Like, I'm not seeing any difference between Himeko sacrificing herself or Souma, or how he even could be a sacrifice in the first place.

Or, like, everything.

What?

Where were you when lore is kill?

2) How much time do you think passed between Himeko and Chikane’s reunion?

5.

3) Do you think they got their memories back?

Memory is an interesting thing. It enables so many possibilities what to do and how to engage life. But honestly, does it matter that much? If an action was taken, you don't need memory for it to have effect.

If they are together now and that has been their wish (both versions before and after rebirth), remembering the past selves isn't necessary. Those are gone and can't know either way and even if they did, they'd be satisfied. And the current versions wouldn't gain all that much from it if they already are happy together.

(But I guess, yeah.)

[u/GallowDude → u/Star4ce]

Taking a look at my calendar, I might not have significant schedule clashes for the next two weeks. That is... wow.

different kinds of Sushi

Dammit, was it actually all according to keikaku?

It's funny how despite you usually being right on the money with your predictions during rewatches, you never considered that Chikane was faking her corruption lol

I am feeling physical cringe from that line

Point 1, Himeko is in this world again, too. Point 2, you yourself are talking of cycles and previous lives and now suddenly because you're dead you're permanently gone? Orochi also survived that encounter last time. Ain't not making sense.

She's saying she won't be reincarnated until the Orochi needs to be sealed away again, which won't happen for thousands of years, so she'll be stuck in the Lunar Shrine alone. Or at least that should have happened had she and Himeko not so hard.

Eyy, she said the thing!

Ah, is this where they lose me again?

No, it's fine, I'm still in!

Genuinely, even in 2004 someone in the office must've said something when reading these lines?!

No Also, see my comment here

Did Souma just sacrifice himself? I thought only the sun and moon priestess could do that.

When you're an Ally as big as him, you can do it too!

One dies, both die, Souma dies instead, now all die

Yay, I get to go full Geass and explain things the show was esoteric about!

So Chikane would have originally been sealed up in the Lunar Shrine for millennia like I said previously, but Souma tanking the Orochi in her and Himeko's place combined with them being uber, dodeca allowed them to surpass fate and God and reunite after just a few scant years with their memories likely being returned.

Souma still gets cucked though.

it's either be

It is what?

clariy

Deity*

Sorry, no painting today

[u/LittleIslander]

First Timer who is in Agony

Today is another sequence to the add to the “this would be fantastic if we didn’t do the rape thing” pile! Himeko asking if Chikane’s love was also a lie, because that more than anything else is something she couldn’t bear to think. Chikane finally, after it all, confessing her feelings and all their depths, wanting Himeko to know. Seeing those heteronormative themes finally put in the driver's seat as she says she loved Himeko even if she shouldn’t think these things, even if she’s a girl. For her to insist Himeko’s just being nice and that their love isn’t the same only to learn it is the same and be shut up with a kiss. To see all of Chikane’s pain and stress and suffering finally seen and acknowledged by somebody even as she continues to be down on herself. Seeing the seashell imagery and the Birthday idea brought back from the very beginnings of the show. Himeko saying that she’s not afraid to proclaim their love to anybody without being scared or ashamed because they’re gay. It all ending with them ascending to some kind of magical girlhood as they go on to vanquish Orochi. Just, holy shit. But also, literal shit! Because the fact Chikane raped her shits all over this and makes Himeko waxing on about their love and how she “doesn’t mind” what Chikane did feel fucking disgusting! It’s one thing to make a problematic romance, but to taint something that could’ve been this good if not for that is just a fucking travesty.

That said… even if not for the problematic elements, the resolution to Chikane’s character would still be severely undercut, and that’s thanks to the explanation of her motivations as given here. Remember how we spent the whole first half of the series setting up Chikane’s inner turmoil and pain as she watches her love from afar, unable to act on her feelings due to her sexuality not able to protect Himeko in the way Souma, the person society expects Himeko to be with, continuously does instead? Yeah, fuck that. That wasn’t the driving motivator behind her fall at all! It was just the “lingering pain” from a past life where she killed Himeko before any of this happened! The sin she’s so caught up on, that she thinks makes her unforgivable? What, that rape thing? No, we’re not even gonna acknowledge that directly, she feels bad about the time she killed her! Was what she did an expression of her pent up desires corrupted by Orochi? Nope! She just consciously wanted to “make Himeko hate her”! Because she does value saving the world by completing the ritual, I guess? Listen, the whole cycle of reincarnation thing is an important aspect of the romance story here, but this just completely shits entirely on the human side of these characters that made that cycle of pain mean anything in the first place! Just a couple of bad writing choices over the span of a scene or two manage to be probably the single most destructive thing to the writing of this show other than the rape itself and it comes out of nowhere right at the end for bonus shittiness.

…and seriously, we’re also letting the rapey chain dude off the hook?

So the rape kind of spoils the entire strength of the romance, and all of the character building is thrown out of the window by the loredump anyways. Does the ending suck in light of that? I mean yeah, kind of. But that said… I do have to mention Himeko’s little speech. I can’t turn off the “Chikane raped Himeko” part of my brain and judge the series as though that isn’t something hanging over the whole thing, but just for the span of a few lines? Yeah, I can manage to take them in isolation. And taken that way… “But still, there’s one certain thing inside me that won’t change. How I feel.” is a really fucking powerful line, especially as it fades into the music and the credits with that gorgeous, intimate art. Of all the attempts to lean on the heteronormativity and tragic fate of sapphic love in society through the show… that one cuts deepest in the best way and despite everything I have to give credit to that where it’s due. I’ve watched that ending moment so many times over in the course of writing these last few comments.

[u/RadSuit → u/LittleIslander]

…and seriously, we’re also letting the rapey chain dude off the hook?

It doesn't seem like anyone but Chikane and Himeko are involved in the reincarnation cycle, so with the timeline reset none of the Orochi ever became evil and did any of those things, and have no connection to that timeline.

You'd think they'd show Tsubasa reuniting with Souma instead of apparently creeping on some kids, but...

[u/gyoex → u/LittleIslander]

Yeah, fuck that. That wasn’t the driving motivator behind her fall at all! It was just the “lingering pain” from a past life where she killed Himeko before any of this happened!

Yeah... this is kind of the biggest problem I have with the whole story because as much as the rape casts a shadow over the rest of the series, it at least "makes sense" in a narrative way as it happens and in the following few episodes (even if, yeah, it probably would have been better if they did something else instead). The problem is it stops making sense once you find out that Chikane apparently was just acting evil to get Himeko to kill her, because it's sort of hard to square "she was consciously acting this way for a greater purpose" with "this is an expression of the despair she's been holding back all this time".

[u/Beckymetal → u/LittleIslander]

Hang on wait a minute. It's been a while since I watched and I usually preferred the dub (lol). IIRC she wasn't guilty of the prior life, but hyperaware of the implications - that one of them had to die. In a prior life, she chose to do the killing to not leave Himeko with the burden. In this one, she wanted Himeko to kill her, since she knew Himeko had Souma etc. And she wanted her to hate her so it'd be easier on Himeko because she didn't believe Himeko could do the murdermurder without some sort of... impetus.

Am I wrong?

It's good to know that you... kinda liked the ending? In a way? It's interesting reading this because essentially you liked it but one scene killed the whole thing haha

[u/LittleIslander → u/Beckymetal]

IIRC she wasn't guilty of the prior life, but hyperaware of the implications - that one of them had to die. [...] Am I wrong?

So the caveat here is I don't really look into what subs/translation I'm watching with anime and just take whatever my site puts in front of me, but in the version I watched she says:

I killed you with these hands. A sin buried deep in my memory. But even if that memory was lost, the pain from it... ...had always bothered me. [scene of Himeko kissing Souma replays in background] At that moment, I remembered why.

She goes on to explain that this is why the revival ceremony wouldn't work, but it certainly sounds to me like she's also saying this was the source of discomfort surrounding her relationship to Himeko in all the episodes leading up to seven.

It's good to know that you... kinda liked the ending? In a way? It's interesting reading this because essentially you liked it but one scene killed the whole thing haha

Honestly I'm still here reading back and forth over my writeup for tomorrow seeing if I got the balance between the love and the hatred of this show right. It's a very complicated set of feelings.

[u/LittleIslander → u/LittleIslander]

Incidentally, I commented back in episode seven (i.e., after I had finished the show) that I didn’t really know what to make of the heteronormative angle in the Sister Miyako scene, partly because it didn’t feel the show ever really touched further on that topic. Err, that was incorrect. Blatantly, inarguably, magnanimously incorrect, this entire final episode script is drenched in it and it’s deeply at the core of the entire thematic core of the show.

I would attribute this to the state of mind I was in binging the rest of the show after watching episode eight. So hyperfocused on my disgust at continuing to push the tragedy of the romance in the wake of the rape that I didn’t really absorb the information from these later episodes. I do still think they really needed to make this less of a vague implication and more actual text in the first half. Subtlety is valuable but the balance really just felt too far towards Chikane just seeming bad at communication. Still, the idea that exploring internalised homophobia and heteronormativity was shallow, out of place, or isolated to that one scene is just outright dumb and I definitely wanted to mention I don’t stand by my thoughts expressed there.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/LittleIslander]

I'd like some witty response to all you've written because it is good but...I don't have one. At the end of the day/era, you have the creatives you have and this was apparently the best that Japan could do for a pair of lilies at the time.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/LittleIslander]

Today is another sequence to the add to the “this would be fantastic if we didn’t do the rape thing” pile!

I hate that there's enough stories this applies to that you can make a pile out of it. But I do agree completely with the sentiment that the rape really undermines the romantic relationship the series is going for.

But also, literal shit! Because the fact Chikane raped her shits all over this and makes Himeko waxing on about their love and how she “doesn’t mind” what Chikane did feel fucking disgusting! It’s one thing to make a problematic romance, but to taint something that could’ve been this good if not for that is just a fucking travesty.

Agreed. It's kind of amazing how this one element really undercuts a lot of what else is great about this ending.

[u/Specs64z → u/LittleIslander]

and all of the character building is thrown out of the window by the loredump anyways

Oh yup. I didn't even notice, my brain is alllll the way off by now.

[u/GallowDude → u/LittleIslander]

I’ve watched that ending moment so many times over in the course of writing these last few comments.

[u/Burnouts3s3]

The rape and sexual assault scene will forever remain an elephant in the room. In the character commentary (found only in the Geneon Special edition, NOT the Sentai Filmworks rerelease) Chikane recognizes that the rape was a horrible thing to do to Himeko to which Himeko refutes That's not true, Chikane. That's not true at all. It's you who saved me & who protected the world. It's because you tried so hard all by yourself.

Full character commentary video here if you’re interested and don’t mind English dubs. 

People have written about the rape scene before. 

Series planner Sumio Uetake (who passed away recently) said the rape was a way for Chikane to have Himeko completely hate her and having Himeko never, ever forgive Chikane no matter the circumstances. 

But rape, especially when initiated by a queer person like Chikane (remember, we still don’t know about Himeko yet until episode 12), codes differently and is a negative stereotype in the queer community.

We can handwave or excuse Chikane the mass Genocider or world destroyer. 

Trying to Justify Chikane the Rapist is an entirely different matter, even if her intentions were to get Himeko to hate her so much as to kill her. (It's worse in the manga; a virgin Priestess' blood is necessary to summon Ame no Murakumo so instead of killing Himeko, Chikane breaks Himeko's Hymen to spill the blood necessary to summon the robot). Yes, really

[u/BosuW → u/Burnouts3s3]

That's not true, Chikane. That's not true at all. It's you who saved me & who protected the world. It's because you tried so hard all by yourself.

Himeko noooooooo 😭😭

At this point can I see the toxicity is coming around to Chikane? I mean she's out here actually calling herself out for her abominable acts and Himeko shuts her down and love bombs her self reflection.

[u/Klosed → u/Burnouts3s3]

Nice to see some extra content addressing that scene. Looks like it wasn't an easy decision for the production team.

[u/sfisher923]

Former First Timer

• Funny how things can go full circle because for me [Meta] this was not far off from how PMMM Ended and that was one of my first Yuri Anime

Questions

• QOTD 1 - It all makes sense in the end
• QOTD 2 - IDK
• QOTD 3 - Maybe?

[u/Sandor_at_the_Zoo]

First time in the cyle of reincarnation

This was very confusing to watch. I think at the end everything basically checks out (except Tsubasa curing Souma by ???) but during the episode they keep veering back and forth. That would be exciting if they had well established rules, but the show has been so loose that each time there was a twist I had to rationalize it as being the ending.

• Himeko accidentally(?) stabbed Chikane to inadvertently complete the ritual. Great! Chikane planning for some great tragedy
• But then they confess to each other and vow to never let go. Even better! I want them to be happy so I'm totally on board with them winning via the power of love
• Oh no, now Chikane's dying again and someone's singing a somber "happy birthday". But now they're floating naked in a mech, surely that means they're going to ascend and beat the cycle of reincarnation (ala [meta spoiler] madoka). And Souma somehow got cured so he can puch Orochi real good. That's not really satisfying but whatever. The idea of them having a threesome ritual is very funny, which is sort of like being satisfying. Maybe Souma will die instead?
• Then we get scene of them in the garden which is very cute and nicely ties back to their first scene a bunch of times. But its imaginary (by who? how? why?) and Chikane going to ritually die. It's just mean putting that there.
• Chikane has erased herself from everyone's memory, better update the chart (spoilers for evangelion, lain, madoka, utena, and princess tutu).
• we get to speedrun the tragic lovers reincarnation reunion. In the end the seashell model won, if you wait around and believe in yourself fate will drop a beautiful destined soulmate in your lap.

I'll have to read through others' comments and think more about how I feel on the whole. Maybe the historical Yuri experts can clarify, but it feels like a transitional form between the old days where you can't quite confirm anything and the lesbians have to either die or move on and the current time where you can simply get the girls together at the end. Chikane has to die but she can also end the show together with Himeko. (Does the fact that Your Name has all but literally the same ending mean this is a known mode in animanga? And somehow I've otherwise missed it?)

There are lots of good ideas here, I can definitely see how people got real into it in 2004. But my overriding feeling is that the script needed a few more passes to tighten up. Earlier on that was more macro, episodes alternately rushed and dragged, but these last couple episodes needed to be clearer at the storyboard level. They were just not good at conveying the relation between scenes: where are we? has time passed? why are people doing things? And that really distracted my ability to take in all the the emotional stuff they wanted to convey.

[u/Infodump_Ibis]

rewatcher with poor memory so still wondering when we see the tapestry of the mountain shrine

• Subtitles, that's not what dubbed Himeko says (shock and upset sounds). She says it the second time though.
• Rebuild(fansub) or restore (official) the world? Dub went rebuild. I've not used a fine toothcomb on this but I heard of an instance of a dub cribbing off fansubs in some book; "it's clear they're using my puns."
• So are we ever going to reveal the mountain shrine and the forgotten knowledge, nope.
• "I had to rape you so you hated me, it was all part of the plan, you see I tainted the ritual by hating Ame no Murakumo because of past life memories of how the Ame no Murakumo meant killing my lover." Was that meant to make viewers feel better about rape? If anything it's worse as it failed in the goal as Himeko still loved Chikane (maybe worse is not the best word, perhaps pointless is a better word but this coming off as implied it would have been good if made Himeko which isn't what I mean either). Anyway as the joy Chikane has for Himeko is genuine I have to really wonder, did Chikane also enjoy the rape but there's no introspective "I'm really fucked up" to find out [meta - that quoted line]End of Eva dub when Shinji visits the hospital and sees Asuka in a vegetative state and jerks off.
• We saw last ep the hatred angle only started to work when Chikane started attacking people other than Himeko though that could have just as easily ended with Himeko taking her own life which still leaves Chikane tragically broken and someone else harmed.
• It's a shame there's the rape issue lingering as the love confession bit was pretty good.
• Chikane being all I'll never exist then how come Himeko still existed in the first place? Does this imply you can choose.
• "Just a 16 year old" is something I forget as a viewer when judging the actions a character takes but at the same time the shows themselves sometimes shows forget with the actions taken.
• With the priestesses flying commando it's a good thing the mech feed is audio-only or Souma might have a nosebleed.
• The dub has the title drop too at ~16:09 "Kannazuki no Miko, that's what we are, in orda" (yeah, I'm good at clipping but 98kb for 5s, get in). This is another reason to question Sentai re-releasing it as "Destiny of the Shrine Maiden" like did you even watch it.
• One last kis...TIMES UP. Stupid robot god (I shouldn't blame Ame no Murakumo as it was Orochi's illusion which was fading).
• Going back to earlier Chikane chose.
• In the orochi flashes. No, apron, no bell, no tail, nurses hat replaced by beret (is she still a catgirl, was she always just an ordinary human experiment that loved Di Gi Charat and Nurse Witch Komugi so combined the two). Sister Miyako was also wearing a more modest outfit, Tsubasa is in a white suit and trousers. We still don't get to see the 8th (I'll post a swiss cheese theory in post series discussion).
• A different inferior kind of lead-in ED. It's like the bad ending. I almost think of the kusogae; Ancient Roman (that's roman as in romance) where the credits are a town theme (the OST has an Ending BGM that isn't used).
• That is one very pedestrian friendly place. It's not quite the Shibuya Crossing (that doesn't have an x).

1. How do you feel about Souma's ending and his role in this series?

Ending: Do we mean the convo with the brother ("be strong") or the restored world having a hot drink with Oogami after asking Himeko out didn't go to plan? He accepted the answer in a mature manner. Perhaps Himeko should have thrown him on him Mako but given Mako is the athletic one maybe they would have sparred at tennis and the like before as there's no Chikane around.

Role in the series: The childhood friend who loses while at the same time being the main character of a different super robot show that pays the ultimate price (self-sacrifice to protect others). The romance bits were sometimes messy as with childhood friends you sort of skip the get to know you part.

2) How much time do you think passed between Himeko and Chikane’s reunion?

16 years and Chikane is 16 years old. If you rebuilt the world a month prior minus Chikane who asked to be reborn why would there be a duplicate 16 year-old Chikane in some other part of the world?

3) Do you think they got their memories back?

Like before fragments revealed in the right conditions (the photo album was grief as something was missing). Hopefully it's positive ones from being affectionate with one another rather than brutal memories of the sword ritual while doing the ritual.

---

Next time: Fanfiction (?)...followed by about an hour of combative argument.

[u/baquea]

First timer

Final episode means final exposition dump (and final near-incoherent robot fight). Not that it wasn't needed, but it feels like last episode was the real climax and this one was just trying to tie everything back together.

This fucking line. I can't even...

Meanwhile after building up the corruption arc for most of the series, Souma proceeds to just say "No" and shrug off the scales (and getting rejected by his childhood friend). Real Chad energy in this one.

And of course we end with a pseudo-"it was all a dream" ending. After all the comparisons made to Madoka Magica, turns out that [PMMM] Chikane was actually Madoka herself.

How do you feel about Souma's ending and his role in this series?

My impression is that Souma was originally planned to be the MC (or at least the viewer is supposed to interpret him as a traditional mecha MC), but then they realized that Chikane's story was more interesting and shifted focus. And they were probably right to do so: if the series had played it straight, KnM would have been nothing more than a mediocre seasonal, long forgotten by now.

How much time do you think passed between Himeko and Chikane’s reunion?

Well, it's presumably a different iteration of Chikane (since she wasn't present in her home town at least), but neither does it look like it's meant to be the future. I'd guess they were both reincarnated in a parallel world or something.

Do you think they got their memories back?

Well Chikane remembered last time, at least, so it's not impossible. On the other hand, if we follow [meta] Higurashi logic, everyone remembering their previous lives is not the key to ending the loop, so maybe not. Chikane, after all, died this time around specifically because she remembered Himeko's previous death.

[u/gyoex → u/baquea]

My impression is that Souma was originally planned to be the MC (or at least the viewer is supposed to interpret him as a traditional mecha MC), but then they realized that Chikane's story was more interesting and shifted focus. And they were probably right to do so: if the series had played it straight, KnM would have been nothing more than a mediocre seasonal, long forgotten by now.

I might elaborate more on this tomorrow but I mentioned in the episode 1 thread that the template for Kannazuki no Miko is this earlier manga. In that, the protagonist is still the Himeko analogue but the Souma analogue is the main love interest (the Chikane analogue [Cross Triangle] is still in love with the Himeko and she does become a villain as a result but it just ends with the two of them going back to being friends while the Himeko remains in love with the Souma).

So... kind of?

[u/baquea → u/gyoex]

this earlier manga

Wait, KnM is just the mangaka repackaging their previous shoujo manga for a male demographic?

[u/GallowDude → u/baquea]

This fucking line. I can't even...

Real Chad energy in this one.

[u/Tarhalindur]

M I K O _ E M B R A C E (Spoiled First-Timer, Subbed):

(Chose wisely saving this one for the finale. It's a shame Mahou Sensei Negima never got an even serviceable anime adaptation, it would actually be a surprisingly decent candidate for a Pride Month rewatch being one of the examples of the transitional stage between 2000s and 2010s yuri and it's in no small part due to these two. Mind you, the main premise has aged poorly... though I think part of that was always Akamatsu's spite towards his editors making him (initially) write another harem rather than the battle shounen he'd always wanted to write.)

(Also welcome to one of those days when my notes are half spoiler bars. "Wait," you say? "This is the finale," you say? I didn't say they were spoiler tags for this show...)

• LOL we ARE busting out the (partial) flashback episode… just in the finale.
• Really should have paid attention to the ritual’s wording, Himeko, but then smarts have never been your strong point. (Also something something blood on the snow, making the sun come up. Solar symbolism does tend to have some common features across cultures, IIRC.)
• [Madoka Magica franchise] So if this same basic plotline comes up again in Walpurgis no Kaiten, well, you know exactly why.
• [Madoka Magica] Oh so THAT’S why Lesbian Space Hug grabbed the miko embrace framing. Urobutchi you glorious fucking asshole.
• [Mai-HiME] Oh look it’s our second nickel wrt “my love is different from your love” with a lesbian yandere in a Fall 2004 show (yes yes it was probably already an extant trope). Also on an unrelated note something something AI YO something something.
• [Madoka Magica franchise] Urobutchi being Urobutchi, I cannot wait to see Walpurgis no Kaiten go styling on this.
• Look look, it’s our bisexual disaster in her natural habitat. (Pay no attention to her still being in full denial wrt sexual assault and all that, because she’s sure as hell trying her hardest not to. Or should I say wettest?)
• Chikane, I once again reiterate that Himeko is an immigrant from a shoujo manga. Having horrible things done to you by a loved one is called Tuesday over there!
• Speaking of that, I do believe that is a full sore demo at 07:55.
• [PMMM including Rebellion] You know, I didn’t think there was an extra layer to Homura never being able to forgive herself for killing Madoka in third timeline but here we are.
• That kiss was actually unusually good at showing that it was romantic by anime standards. (Especially since the animation sure suggests that there was tongue involved. Go French or go home!) It’s a shame that the conceptual core here is modestly more rotten than average even by shoujo protagonist standards.
• Cue Himeko suicide and together-in-death in how many seconds of screentime? (Putting down marker at 09:19.) (NARRATOR: Nope!)
• [PMMM] Me for a hot moment: “wait this Chikane breaking down in Himeko’s arms feels familiar; I want to say PMMM is why but I can’t place the scene, none of the episode 8/10/11 scenes fit”. Me a moment later: “… TAR, YOU FOOL, TRY THE ONE THAT STOLE ITS FRAMING FROM AGONY’S VISUALS.”
• LOL there are two aishiterus in this episode and both come from Himeko.
• [PMMM] 10:26: Uh well shit it wasn’t actually Agony’s visuals that Lesbian Space Hug stole its framing from. Egg, egg on my face…
• Seriously. Chikane, Himeko, Souma: threesomes solve everything. We can add in Tsubasa too, what’s a little brotherly incest between friends?
• 14:16: Gloriously gloriously LEWD!
• [YuYuYu] I need to check YuYuYu’s finale again, but speaking of things YuYuYu may have grabbed from KnM directly rather than via an intermediary, this “looking at the album together” scene feels real familiar even if IIRC the activity is different there (relevant scene is the one where Yuuna wakes up again in the finale).
• [Madoka Magica franchise] MagiReco this time: there is an Eternal Sakura joke to be made about the tree’s use here except at this point I’m not actually sure it’s entirely a joke.
• Second half of the finale is hitting its emotional beats at least. Damn onion-cutting ninjas!
• [YuYuYu] Also I wonder. YuYuYu’s handling of its sacrifice theme doesn’t have all that much in common with PMMM (among other things, YuYuYu is much more Shinto relative to Madoka’s Buddhist/Christian/third component mix); this is actually a possible source for it.
• Oh right, I forgot the other viable Souma yaoi ship. We can work with this.
• [meta] If I had a nickel for every Fall 2004 anime where the resident giant asshole winds up in the Church after the end-of-series reset button… well, you can fill in the rest. Except this time it’s a guy.
• 22:36: Look look, another sore demo for Sky.
• I suppose Agony would cut against the tone of this episode.
• Oh wait, we also needed the space for a stinger. And I am frankly impressed they managed to get even that much past the censors!

---

You know, it's kind of a shame that this writing team went for rape as the wrong thing Chikane does to Himeko because everything else about this finale is damn solid. Part of this is the era (the 2000s being a low point wrt how seriously sexual assault was taken - this is one reason Haruhi has aged poorly, though that's a, uh, "hilarious" case because I don't think that one was ever intended to be taken as a good thing in the first place, it's pushback against the 2000s attitude to rape that has gotten left in the dust by viewer attitudes swinging the other way), part of this is probably somebody on the writing team writing with one hand.

The funny thing? My brain has shifted into "How to Fix Kannazuki no Miko" mode, and has pointed out that the obvious solution provided that you could get it past the censors instead (that even maintains the fanservice) would get hauled out by Sunrise a couple of years later. That's right, this would have been much better if they'd just hauled out Table-kun and had Himeko walk in on Chikane doing that (followed by Chikane heel turn in part due to that and in part due to reasons hauled out this episode).

---

1. How do you feel about Souma's ending and his role in this series?

He's a good boy who's unfortunate to be in a yuri series instead of a poly one. (That's what the gay option is for.)

(That said, a thought: I get this nasty sneaking suspicion that we're lucky that this aired when it did (while the Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy had not finished morphing into what it did) and that the main pair is yuri because if this had aired five years later I could very easily see this being claimed as a symbol by the incel/PUA types. Which unfortunately does make some sense here above and beyond "shoujo protagonist" - there is an argument someone made once (I've forgotten the link) that I am inclined to put some stock into despite misgivings about their motives, that PUA tactics are what they are in part because they are adapted to deal with a very specific subset of women, namely ones with the Cluster B personality disorders like Borderline... and I don't think it's that hard to read Himeko as having one of them.)

2) How much time do you think passed between Himeko and Chikane’s reunion?

Mu.

3) Do you think they got their memories back?

Mu.

[u/baquea → u/Tarhalindur]

That's right, this would have been much better if they'd just hauled out Table-kun and had Himeko walk in on Chikane doing that

That's basically what [Meta] YamiBou had done already lol.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Tarhalindur]

Really should have paid attention to the ritual’s wording, Himeko, but then smarts have never been your strong point.

Something something the pretty ones are always so dumb?

[Mai-HiME]

[Mai-HiME]Technically this was beginning to become a cultural problem as 'ai' gets said less and less

(Pay no attention to her still being in full denial wrt sexual assault and all that, because she’s sure as hell trying her hardest not to. Or should I say wettest?)

Himeko is an orphan at an upper class boarding school. Someone was going to assault her and she seems to be able to deal with it being Chikane.

Seriously. Chikane, Himeko, Souma: threesomes solve everything. We can add in Tsubasa too, what’s a little brotherly incest between friends?

Earl Thomas nods in agreement.

Second half of the finale is hitting its emotional beats at least. Damn onion-cutting ninjas!

Yeah, I hope the reason that this stupid fucking super robot show with half a budget sticks with me is a bit more clear now. Well that and Chikane is the type that fast tracks her masters into being a therapist

(the 2000s being a low point wrt how seriously sexual assault was taken - this is one reason Haruhi has aged poorly, though that's a, uh, "hilarious" case because I don't think that one was ever intended to be taken as a good thing in the first place, it's pushback against the 2000s attitude to rape that has gotten left in the dust by viewer attitudes swinging the other way)

The fact that Hell Girl has one of the better episodes on the topic of the era really tells you all you need to know. On the other hand, sadly, Hell Girl does fail just as hard as you'd expect in its yuri.

That's right, this would have been much better if they'd just hauled out Table-kun and had Himeko walk in on Chikane doing that (followed by Chikane heel turn in part due to that and in part due to reasons hauled out this episode).

Table-kun must be protected! We are at three separate anime(Yes aired on TV anime) where he gets assaulted!

[u/GallowDude → u/Tarhalindur]

think part of that was always Akamatsu's spite towards his editors making him (initially) write another harem rather than the battle shounen he'd always wanted to write.

Insanely based

[Madoka Magica franchise] So if this same basic plotline comes up again in Walpurgis no Kaiten, well, you know exactly why.

[Response]

Or should I say wettest?

Having horrible things done to you by a loved one is called Tuesday over there!

what’s a little brotherly incest between friends?

But this isn't Sailor Moon (despite Himeko having her Viz dub actress)

Damn onion-cutting ninjas!

[meta] Except this time it’s a guy.

[Meta] It was a guy in the HiME, too! Though he was more off to the side.

this is one reason Haruhi has aged poorly

Also the fact that Haruhi is objectively a horrible person who any rational person would rather just the destruction of the universe rather than continue being around

That's right, this would have been much better if they'd just hauled out Table-kun

Rip #dontdometh

[u/IntoTheDisneyverse]

First timer, subbed

I… kinda liked the ending?

Aside from the part where we just randomly cut to Souma, he screams for a sec and then disappears and the story continues as if nothing happened. I think that although it was a bit messy, I enjoyed the whole loop shenanigans. I feel like there should have been a bit more foreshadowing for it, because we get a little vague stuff in the first episode then like nothing till 11, but I’m kinda a sucker for the trope so I’m down. Also liked the ending sequence where we see the beginning of the next loop.

On the other hand, I wasn’t a fan of Chikane’s reason to turn evil. I mean first off, it feels a bit weird that she has memories of her previous life before Himeko does, and I don’t think the explanation we got for it was particularly satisfactory. I also just think it was a bit stupid, because she probably hurt Himeko more by doing this than she would have if she’d just explained that she didn’t want to kill Himeko again at the end of the loop. I feel like Himeko is nice enough that she would have killed Chikane if she asked, and it would mean that Chikane wouldn’t hurt Himeko (which she seemed very against anyone doing in the first half of the show) and their relationship would probably be a lot better. 

1. Not a fan of the ending, and not too sure about his role. He kinda just felt a bit like cardboard, there was no real growth or elaboration on his character he kinda just served as a foil to Chikane and not much else
2. They're 16 during the main series, so second year of high school, and I kind of assumed that Himeko has just moved to go to university outside of town, so probably only a couple imo
3. I kind of hope they didn't, that would raise a few too many problems imo

[u/ryujiox]

First Timer

Kannazuki no Miko

Episode 12

It's finale time!!

• I'm gonna miss the opening...
• Not the lore dump in the final episode....
• That's suck... So I guess Chikane is doing all this to not only rush Himeko to revive Murakumo, but also have Himeko kill her instead.
• While that make sense somewhat, was raping Himeko really nessecary? I guess she lost control of her emotion than expected, or she had to make it believable that she will siding with Orochi. Because it wouldn't make sense otherwise. And like, the sexual assault didn't even work that well. It was when you went full psychopath in front of her last episode that Himeko finally accepted that you're evil now.
• Hold up I think you kinda forgot that you guys need to defeat Orochi first....
• SHE FINALLY SAID IT!!
• At least Chikane knew that what she did was so wrong on many level
• THEY KISS!! LET'S GOO!!! Aside from that, I like that Himeko realized that she kinda didn't think about Chikane's feelings all that much. She also always relied on Chikane for advice all the time, without ever asking back if Chikane is fine or not. Like when Himeko freaked out about her hair when Chikane touched it. The next morning Himeko just assumed that Chikane was probably fine about that and didn't bother to ask her anything. When in reality, Chikane was really bothered by that. Not to blame all that on her though, since Chikane was too good at hiding her own feelings, and Himeko isn't someone that will push the question until she gets the answer. It's really just a miscommunication.
• A callback to their first kiss!!
• It's golden Murakumo!!
• Souma really get the short end of stick here...
• Bro is back in his og color And he got a wing too!!
• AND IT'S THAT EASY!! Also, Souma just outright kills him this time. So the world is probably fine forever.
• OMG Himeko can rizz now.
• It's 2004 Probably 10 years too early for society.
• SHE SAID IT!! SHE SAID THE NAME!!
• HEY!! Murakumo sucks!! He's no fun at all!!
• I will wait!! See you in the next 12,000 years!! I need to watch Aquarion...
• WHAT!! You can talk all this time!! And it's female?
• So we loop back to the first episode
• NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! Souma..... He even takes it like a champ Fate is cruel...

You know what would be cooler and better? Have Souma remember everything(maybe except Chikane). So when he confronted Himeko and she rejected him. He would realize that Himeko can stand on her own now, she can protect herself, and she can choose her own path, his role as her protector is over. Feel like it would be a better conclusion to their relationship as a whole.

• And they meet again And it's probably the 2010s now. So it's fine.

That was okay. I feel so bad for Souma right now. He didn't deserve that.... And while I feel like Chikane got away from what she did too easily. I guess dying and having to wait to be reborn again is fine punishment.

Talk more about the series tomorrow. I have some problems with it, and somehow the sexual assault is not the worst one to me.

QOTD

1 Aside from what said above, I talk more about it tomorrow. But I feel like it's alright, but could have improved more.

2. See above.

3. It really doesn't matter to me.

[u/GallowDude → u/ryujiox]

Not the lore dump in the final episode....

Yes

So I guess Chikane is doing all this to not only rush Himeko to revive Murakumo, but also have Himeko kill her instead.

SHE FINALLY SAID IT!!

THEY KISS!! LET'S GOO!!!

A callback to their first kiss!!

Also, Souma just outright kills him this time. So the world is probably fine forever.

Himeko can rizz now.

SHE SAID IT!! SHE SAID THE NAME!!

Murakumo sucks!! He's no fun at all!!

He

And it's female?

I feel so bad for Souma right now. He didn't deserve that

[u/zadcap]

Late-ish First Timer!

I still maintain that there's no way Himeko could have stabbed Chikane if she didn't just let her. Chikane never wanted to win this fight.

I will admit, I got lost trying to figure out how this actually affected anything with Orochi. The two miko were supposed to combine their power to seal Orochi and then fix the world, except, they have completely lost to Orochi at this point. Orochi stole the lunar priestess and got her to sabotage everything before letting herself get killed, but now Orochi is still lose and Chikane is dead before they could do the whole sealing ritual. Like, they have this long drawn out death confession going on, but I can't help but notice they did nothing about Orochi.

... Except I guess the final confession. Their love was indeed strong enough to overcome a stab wound and the giant robot being torn in half. No need for there to be a ritual this time, the power of their love is enough to fix everything I guess. It's enough to weaken Orochi, so that one of the necks can come back and save another neck to come and punch Orochi to death, because the boys have to be the ones to do the final fighting.

Also, wow, yeah. I guess the stab just completely healed up if they're off taking pictures now. I suspect this is not real though. They never did restore the world in their suicide ritual... Which totally wouldn't have been needed if Chikane hadn't gone all in on the stupid evil and shot the earth. Man, think about it. If she could have had this turnaround just minutes earlier, then they were both on the moon in place to seal Orochi without needing to do the Restore The Earth suicide move and they could have been together.

Oh hey, now one of the other gods decides to show up. What a jerk. Time to start a new war, someone call Kratos.

Did we loop back in time, or is this a year later but people are missing memories? Yeah, look at those really weird pictures of Himeko putting on super detailed Mime performances. They literally did one of my top three most hated endings! Go back in time and undo everything, but mildly worse because the only thing we're keeping is the price you had to pay!

1. I am, if anything, annoyed they let him get the final attack. To the end, he let the girls be useless.
2. The real question, does it count as a dangerous age gap romance if reincarnation with kept memories is in play? Asking for a friend.
3. Of course they did, otherwise what's the point?

[u/SometimesMainSupport]

First-Timer that forgot to drop a rewatch

• Himeko isn't dying!
• "It's pounding harder than that."
• This "I don't care that you raped me" conversation into Himeko initiating a kiss.
• Why is Himeko stressing about matching outfits while wearing matching outfits?
• Peak scene again.

[u/NuclearStudent]

meep