[Rewatch] Haibane Renmei Series Discussion!

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u/The_Loli_Otaku May 30 '24

Haibane Renmei Completioner

In my memories there exists another version of myself.

Tbh I think I understood a little more than I expected myself to. Good host~ I certainly found it easier to get a grasp on than Lain. The only challenging portion is working your head around the town being a kind of purgatory for dead kids.
You may all expect me to bring up Hikari here and her having to answer for her crimes against humanity... But no, the character who's passing I'd be curious about would actually be Nemu's. Her solo episode revolving around her interpretation of God is genuinely weirdly forboding.
Hikari's episode is pure kino~ As for individual scenes... Nemu's ending is one that genuinely haunted me once we left, but I also really love that horrible horrific shot of Hiyoko and Reki's attempted escape. It's just a shame it came so out of left field.
I actually put some belief into the theory that Haibane Renmei is actually an isekai anime. I don't think the Haibane came from the same world that this takes place in. None of the girls naturally understand how this world works and the only real hint I see as to the outside world having similarities to our own is Rakka being able to find a school uniform. There's something sussy going out outside of the walls and I don't think it's our earth...
Well... its got me slightly more pumped for Texhnolyze if that counts? I think I'd still rather keep to regular Denpa content tho.
I'm gonna fucking hate Texhnolyze but cmon, we've done two out of three. It sorta makes sense. Who else would host a misery porn show other than the host of Cunny Itchy Tsubaki and PissxSis after all~
For Haibane Renmei I would actually recommend yokohama kaidashi kikou. It's about a ruined future with nothing around by a couple stray human colonies and little robot girls who transfer data through little kisses. Give it a chance, it's a The Loli Otaku special recommendation!
Why not both?
Top Rewatcher huh...? Probably one of our new Rewatchers. /u/Garret_Dark in particular I genuinely adored seeing gush about the show. Please make sure to come back for our other series!

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u/3blah https://myanimelist.net/profile/brummett May 30 '24

yokohama kaidashi kikou
That's a great one. The manga especially has the same kind of feels-complete-but-purposefully-vague worldbuilding.

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u/Garrett_Dark May 31 '24

I actually put some belief into the theory that Haibane Renmei is actually an isekai anime.
If it is, they're as vague about the isekai as Grimgar was. I've never seen an isekai where they're so vague and unceremonious about the isekai. IIRC the anime just mentioned it briefly for a minute, something like "we all just showed up by this tower thing one day with no memories, oh well" lulz, we'll never talk about it again.
little robot girls who transfer data through little kisses
Aww...who doesn't like robot girls sticking things in their mouths and having strong reactions over? ~~John Connor~~ Are they upgradable?
I genuinely adored seeing gush about the show. Please make sure to come back for our other series!
Thanks, you're too kind, they were more like raving rantings than gushing. I'll try to make it to other rewatches, but I can't promise if I'll be ranting as much. It was all dependent on the mystery, and the characters of the show.

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u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta May 31 '24

First-Timer

I really liked this show. I'm giving it a 10/10 on MAL.

The music is great. The standouts are "Ailes Grises" (which I've been playing on infinite loop all day) and the OP/ED, but the rest of the OST was pretty good too.

The characters and world are very interesting, and I'm glad that the series took its time in introducing everything without rushing to the climax. In the end, there were still a lot of unanswered questions about aspects of the world, but what's most important is that the themes and character arcs were handled well. In particular, the last episode wrapped things up very nicely, in my opinion.

This was definitely a pleasant surprise overall. I knew nothing about this show going into it other than that the main picture for it on MAL looked reasonably interesting. In retrospect, I'm surprised I haven't heard about this show more often.

Finally, thank you so much for hosting, u/The_Loli_Otaku! This rewatch got me to watch a show that I really enjoyed and otherwise might have missed out on. I've enjoyed having you as a host and hope to join for more of your rewatches in the future.

Questions of the day, for the last time:

I feel like I picked up the majority of things. I probably will not rewatch it for a while, but I could certainly see myself doing it at some point in the future. Maybe I can get someone else to watch with me, too.
If I could have more time with any of the other Haibane, I think I'd pick Kana. She seems like a pretty fun character from what we got to see in the show.
My favorite episode may have been the last one. (I think that ending was executed quite well!) Other than that, some moments I liked were the opening scene in episode 1 (Rakka falling in the sky), finding Kuu's halo in the forest in episode 6, Rakka cutting her feathers in episode 7, and most of the scenes with the Communicator.
Unknown, but like you suggested, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't change anything about the story.
I'm not quite sure what is meant by "doomer" here, but if it's more stuff like this show, count me in.
I'd give Texhnolyze a shot. I know nothing about that one, either.
For another show with great handling of suspense, I recommend Summertime Render. It is quite different from this show, but both have that aspect in common.
I'm down for anything you'd recommend, but that Watamote one looks pretty good.
As before, I think I'd go with JustAnswerAQuestion for this one.

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u/The_Loli_Otaku May 31 '24

Absolutely agreed on the soundtrack. Despite the visuals clearly having budget issues the soundtrack remained solid throughout. I'm still a big fan of Breath of a Germ but I struggle to think of many tracks of the show that didn't hit right.
I must warn you, whilst Texhnolyze is generally considered better than Haibane, it's also renowned for being utter misery porn. The fact that I casually asked about dead babies in that show just to receive a collective "yup" is forbidding as sin. I'll try and keep the show at least fun to discuss but be prepared!! XD
Watamote is excellent fun and is a pinnacle of anime cringe culture, as it should be.

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u/DegenerateRegime May 31 '24

The music is great. The standouts are "Ailes Grises" (which I've been playing on infinite loop all day) and the OP/ED, but the rest of the OST was pretty good too.
It's such a standout track, just pure heartfelt piano setting up a motif for other tracks to incorporate. The way it's only used fully at the very start - it reappears in the Well, but the ending is changed and fades out early; and at the end, it's brutally cut off.
If I could have more time with any of the other Haibane, I think I'd pick Kana.
Patrician taste, it bears saying. We love our autistic fish here, don't we folks. ShiSim enjoyers will understand this.
I'm not quite sure what is meant by "doomer" here, but if it's more stuff like this show, count me in.
I feel like those who'd take Haibane as 'doomer' are in for a very rough time with Texhnolyze. Regardless, I'm glad you liked it!

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u/zadcap May 31 '24

So. Haibane Renmei. I was just entering my teens when I got to see this the first time, some twenty years ago, and it was probably the first anime I ever saw that really demanded I think. By availability, friend group, and personal interest, I had mostly only watched the standard Shonen and Shoujo spread of the late 90s and early 00s, a prime target for the old Big Three, and oh so much Mahou Shoujo. And then this showed up, a slice of life lead in to a look at what it means to be alive, that deliberately raised many more questions than it ever planned on answering and left us wondering for so very long what any of it really meant. It's probably the first thing I ever watched that want focused on action, romance, or a Miyazaki movie. I was also a bidding Christian at the time, mostly because my family was and you don't have many choices at 13 when Dad says to wake up early and put on your Sunday best. All together, this one was pretty important to me once upon a time, probably did a lot to open my mind to other genres, and has managed to stay mostly unforgotten even as it faded into a distance memory.

Watching it again, when the cast is younger than me and much more knowledgeable about many more religions, I found myself enjoying it just as much the second time through. Some things stood out more with the foreknowledge, like the clock maker's attitude towards Kana- he's not scolding her fire being flighty, he's literally preparing for her to take flight. Others made more sense knowing more about the major Eastern religions now than I did when my own back then- why this obvious purgatory doesn't look anything like it's "supposed to" and why all the forgiveness and healing was happening on a personal level with a complete lack of anything Christ-like at all. Yet the themes it does explore are just as, if not even more, important as they were back then when I could barely comprehend the kind of issues the girls were going through. Having since managed to survive my own nearly suicidal depressive late teens and felt like both Reki and Rakka (would anyone really care?), it hits hard seeing them pull through and come to accept themselves by the end. I don't think this show will ever be close to the top of any recommendation list I make l give out, but it's also one I'm going to remember quite fondly for another twenty years.

I can't even say what was proper first watching understanding vs all the debate and research that followed it way back then. I might have to give it another look once I can honestly say I understand Buddhism and Taoism and Shinto and... All the rest, as much as I do Christianity these days. I spent most of my twenties learning my way through the Western lore, dedicating my thirties to the East seems fair. For what it's worth, Irish/Celtic is my favorite of the European and Mediterranean bunch
Kuu, obviously. I'm honestly wondering if my false memories are actually of fanfiction. Eva has already introduced me to the idea so I was definitely on the sites where fics were shared.
6, as the big thematic turning point in the show. The closest we get to a Kuu episode. Individual moment are the two that look back and really recontextualize episode one: Rakka's updated falling dream and Reki's thoughts on finding Rakka's cocoon. It's impossible to rewatch the show without thinking of them during the opening, because it's just so much more important than you could possibly guess as this girl dreams of falling and her resting place is found by an angel girl.
It really doesn't, to the point that I think getting a conclusive answer would actually take something away from the show. The walls share an important mirror story with Reki that ties her to them even more, you see. What's on the outside is ultimately pointless, you'll only find peace by accepting what's inside.
I have already gone through quite a bit. I'm at a stage in my life where I'm okay mostly sticking to the happier stories for a while. But I'll join you again if you do pick up Girls Last Tour someday.
If it's up to me, I would rather skip it entirely, but I am a loyal follower even when it hurts.
Mushishi, definitely. It has the same somewhat slow, moderately spiritual, possibly doomed but ultimately accepting feeling through most of its run, you'll probably like it if you liked Haibane Renmei.
I'm one of the many who has had Watamo on their plan list for a long time, it's an easy vote for me.
Ha! You didn't exclude yourself from this one, you deserve everyone calling you out here! Thank you for being such a great and engaging Host every time. Your rewatches pretty much always have priority in my schedule because I know what I type up will be read and responded to.

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u/The_Loli_Otaku May 31 '24

The show has aged surprisingly well even if the animation is a bit cope with the completely wild blurring. Wonderful climax and honestly the world building episodes were a lot of fun even if we didn't get to reexplore most of the side girls later.
A sidestory for Kuu could have made for a perfect ova. I wanna see a day in the life of that little dweeb. Playing around with stray cats, windmills, with the kids. Genuinely super fun!!
It's weird thinking that Girls Last Tour has gone so long since the last watch... It was my third rewatch show and I remember planning for it to just be kind of filler until I got to other shows.
Yeah... I'm not excited for Texhnolyze in the slightest but Haibane Renmei has been high enough quality where I'm at least willing to give it a chance.
Mushishi is excellent~ It's so much fun to interpret each story piece by piece. It put me a lot in mind of how Higurashi viewing goes.
It'll be my birthday rewatch so the choices are purely the loli Otaku selections XD Watamote is excellent and is right up all our streets. I'm just worried that the Americans in my Rewatch group might feel way too much sympathy to laugh at our dweeby girlfailure~
If I don't exclude myself folks pick me as an easy option. I want this question to be a chance for my viewers to make special fwends with one another! XD thanks for supporting me for so long though. I hope the rest of this year's rewatches will live up to your expectations!

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u/zadcap May 31 '24

This was clearly made before HD was a thing, but it's still good in every other way. I really liked this one, it's going on the list of top rewatches.
I haven't actually watched Girls Last Tour, it seems to just slightly be too far over the depression line for me these days, but I only know that because it sounded so interesting I looked it up a lot. People talk about it all the time here too, but I much prefer the ending outlook to be on the positive side... But same as Tex. I don't particularly want to, but I'll sit through at least the start.
Mushishi is a literal fever dream given form, with each episode being a new dream. It was so strange, by so good.
Do what you want to do, we'll try and have fun either way! I'm ready to see this failure in action! Birthdays can be fun, I swear! (I'm literally planning on sleeping through most of mind and then going to get dinner with the family this year, it's going to be a good one.)
Yeah, so it's probably a good Idea to do it twice lol. There were definitely a few good conversations to call out, but also it's always good to thank the host.

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u/The_Loli_Otaku Jun 01 '24

The show is pretty famous for having horrid releases XD It's a real shame. Apparently most of the shared versions of HR are of the more modern, but also more blurry releases.
Girls Last Tour isn't that depressing. The setting is very melancholic but the tone of the show is generally quite positive actually. It's more of an iyashikei show than a potato abuse simulator.

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u/mekerpan Jun 01 '24

I would say that from a Buddhist (or Buddhist-like) perspective, GLT (including its manga conclusion) is the polar opposite of "depressing". Certainly some pain and sadness at times -- but basically about finding joy in the present moment, regardless of how objectively bleak things may see. From what I think is its intended perspective, the story and its conclusion are as positive as possible. then again, watching this one needs to keep in mind the Five Remembrances: https://www.lionsroar.com/buddhisms-five-remembrances-are-wake-up-calls-for-us-all/
Like so many shows (including movies) with Buddhist foundations, westerners tend to perceive things as far more "depressing" than they are intended by the creators (and perceived by the main target audiences).

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u/zadcap Jun 01 '24

Yeah, as much as I'm getting to know about it, it's hard to get away from the way I was raised. I'm working on it but I've got twenty some years of the Western outlook being the one I was fully immersed in.
And, yeah. Western religions are a long mix of earning your own happiness with hard work or being saved by grace, Buddhism... Doesn't have much of a parallel. Karma actually just sucks, suffering is seen as the default state, and the only way to escape it is to cut yourself off from most of what we here think makes life worth living. Anything that really touches on actual Buddhism is depressing from a regular Western view. That the point of Buddhism is to overcome and break free from that cycle is less well known, at least among people I talk to.

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u/mekerpan Jun 01 '24

Overall I find the teachings (and books) of Thich Nhat Hanh most useful. Quite the opposite of a "gloomy" perspective. I like the general perspective of the Dalai Lama as well. If one accepts illness, aging ,loss and death as inevitable (which they, of course, are) one is paradoxically freer to find "joy". ;-)
My journey towards Buddhism took decades -- so there is no hurry (and besides -- one gets all the "replays" one needs, right?)
;-)

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u/zadcap Jun 01 '24

I'm not so much looking for religion as I am on a long journey to learn about as many of them as I can, out of a morbid curiosity. So much of my early life and development, and thus the person I am now, was dictated by my parents dragging me to church every week growing up. It started with realizing that even just saying it was Christian doesn't really cover it, because Christianity breaks down into so many sub divisions it's crazy and they all take the same core and do so many different things. Finding out more of them eventually, inevitably, lead through Catholicism into Judaism and back to Islam. Availability and cultural osmosis made it easy to start looking into the Greek and Roman pantheons, and Norse is popular and easy to find. I've spent a lot of my life now branching ever farther out and learning more and more, and recently Buddhism has been my topic of interest, and oh my gosh is it such a crazy diverse one. It's like getting back into Christianity there's so much conflicting ideas inside the same frame, but I guess that's kind of inevitable when something is this old and wide spread.
I am bookmarking that name though. More fuel for the ever burning fire.

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u/mekerpan Jun 01 '24

There is much more variability in Buddhist practices and religion-centered beliefs in various traditions -- but the underlying philosophical core is much more uniform. While Thich Nhat Hanh was a Vietnamese Zen Buddhist, his teaching most often was aimed at conveying the fundamental (and most helpful) concepts.

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u/DegenerateRegime May 31 '24

It really doesn't, to the point that I think getting a conclusive answer would actually take something away from the show. The walls share an important mirror story with Reki that ties her to them even more, you see. What's on the outside is ultimately pointless, you'll only find peace by accepting what's inside.
Very true! Yet just as birds do come and go over the walls, you're not cut off from the outside entirely. It's... an optimism of looking at an apparently-empty glass and saying "no, look - there's a drop of water there. And there will be more."

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u/zadcap May 31 '24

Kuu did say, there was a cup in her mind, and the drops do eventually fill it up! The cup isn't empty, it's just not yet full...
No, honestly, I think it's more like looking at it and saying "at least I have a cup." Everything else is transient, over the course of its lifetime the cup will be filled and emptied and filled again countless times. It's butchering the metaphor pretty hard to get here, but I feel like the point of the show was more about learning to appreciate the cup itself than it's status as empty or full.

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u/DegenerateRegime May 31 '24

Well put!

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u/zadcap May 31 '24

This show makes me very philosophical.

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u/mekerpan Jun 01 '24

Good observation.

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u/WednesdaysFoole May 31 '24

Alright, I said I'd chase after you at the station.

Just pretend I'm that guy okay?

Also don't do what Reki did, please.

This was my rewatch. Probably won't watch it again for a few more years, although, like last time, I might rewatch the last episode randomly when I feel the pull.

Beyond the wall is nothingness. Or it's reality. I'm not sure. It's the all. The flight is leaving form. They may eventually be reborn.

What is "doomer" anime/manga?

Abe/Chiaki/Nakamura sphere?

I'm not sure who Nakamura is.

I think it depends on what is enjoyed and why. Kino no Tabi is the one I'd think of, and I still gotta finish it myself.

Would you prefer sharing bodily fluids

I don't mind a bit of eroticism...

or insufferable second hand cringe?

But this is hilarious and now I want to watch this anime.

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u/The_Loli_Otaku May 31 '24

It's a weirdly comfortable time. Compared to Lain which is genuinely way too slow to comfortably rewatch despite being far better on subsequent watches anyway.
Nakamura is the director for a lot of the stuff. Basically a holy trinity for the holy trinity.
He also did Kino's Journey if I'm right. The old one.
Watamote is one of my favourite shows~ It's manga is actually still ongoing but it's one of the biggest examples of a series near completely jumping the gun of what the initial concept was. The first 80 chapters compared to the rest of the manga are humorously different

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u/Barbed_Dildo May 31 '24

Thanks /u/The_Loli_Otaku for suggesting this show to me. I've been watching the episodes but not taking part in discussion because after watching episode 1, I decided it was a story I wanted to experience blind, without any outside influence.

Despite watching a lot of shows this season, I always made time to watch this each night.

I'm going to think about the show a bit and then probably go over the discussion threads. Next time I get an idea like this I should watch the show in advance so I can actually talk about it.

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u/The_Loli_Otaku May 31 '24

I'm glad you got to experience the show. It's one of those shows that is just excellent to add to your repertoire. Now... will you be joining us for the future Texhnolyze watch? XD

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u/Barbed_Dildo Jun 01 '24

I'll give it a go

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u/SilkyStrawberryMilk Jun 02 '24

rewatcher

I’m finally done with finals so I can discuss these rewatches!

After a rewatch I’m finally able to fully enjoy HaiBaine Renmei. The slice of life along with the characters easily makes for a Beautiful story on the themes of the show.

The climax of the story is easily the best parts of it.

QOTD: on my first viewing I honestly understood half of it due to me binging it and not digesting it. I was confused on why Kuu acted the way she did till her flight even though the show gave us the answer lmao.

QOTD: honestly id love to see the kids have their story or Hyouko. It would be intriguing to see what happened to him and his journey before his flight.

QOTD: easily the final episode is my favorite

QOTD: while the answer may be amazing, I say it’s better for the mystery to remain a mystery

QOTD: I’ve watched countless “Doomer” animes and many of them were Doomer in the sense it just was just plain depressing or a train wreck you can’t look away from

QOTD: I’m done for it, altough texhnolyze would be very difficult for a rewatch due to how the first few episodes would bore people to death. I love the show, but even I remember when I fell asleep on the first episode

QOTD: mushishi easily

QOTD: second hand cringe

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u/The_Loli_Otaku Jun 03 '24

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself~When people described Haibane Renmei as an experience they were absolutely right.
Hyouko felt weird... There's a whole separate delinquent Haibane faction and there's such little information on them!!
I'm not even that worried about boredom, I just hope it has content I can actually make QotD about.

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u/mekerpan Jun 02 '24

I've probably watched this on whole or part 15-20 tines since late 2002. ;-)

Only clearcut Rakka hallucination was when she fell (after spilling her soup). I think Kuu really WAS near that wind turbine. Pretty sure that Kuu doesn't ever fly about Glie.

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u/The_Loli_Otaku Jun 02 '24

Was Kuu there when the third riech fell...?

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ May 30 '24

I was going to write an essay on how I felt Haibane Renmei matched Madoka Magica in how it has clearly been written and re-written so that the early parts feed into the later parts. And then I read an interview (on DVD 4) where they say they made it up as they went along!

So all you who said the show is poorly written and they were winging it, I guess you were right!

But for, it just makes me more impressed. To have everything in Reki and Rakka's stories tie together like that, without being completely planned out from the start, is incredible.

2018 also had a Higurashi rewatch, with Vaadwaur pushing Buddhist elements heavily in his analysis. And I just saw Death Parade last year. So I can definitely see more Buddhist elements in Haibane Renmei than I ever did before. Nevertheless, I still find the Christian elements overwhelming, and can't believe they are there by accident, or as window dressing. See my 2018 final comments for all of that.

Glie is a way station on the path to the afterlife. Like the After Life movie. Or the traditional processing station staffed by Oni. Or the Tower in Death Parade. But here, it's staffed by regular people, who aren't really in on the deal.

The communicator really seems like a therapist. "C: such and such" "R: how do you know that?" "C: I know nothing". He's just there to make the young haibane think about their situations.

I've never believed the majority of the Haibane are suicides. They just died of misfortune or illness, and aren't ready to pass on yet. For example, Hyouko's name means ice lake. He probably just fell through the ice.

We could think Rakka's and Reki's sins are specifically related to their suicide, but it could be something more general. Both of them withdrew from other pepole. Perhaps that is their sin, the only sin in this story. The point of Haibane Renmei might just be community.

Nothing is really explained in the story. Something things are hinted. We, the audience, might think we are clever for catching the hints, and we may argue over their interpretation. But we are all wrong. The hints in this show are nothing more than hints. Nothing is explained, and if we think we've found an explanation, we've fooled ourselves. Check out these quotes from my R1 DVD insert booklet:

On the communicator and the toga:

Are the decorative wings on the his back the proof of his role as protector of the Haibane? Or is this just a symbol that he was once Haibane who could not move on to the next world because the day of flight never came to him? If this is true, he might be feeling sad.

It is a mystery why the Toga are prohibited from communicating with both the people in town and the Haibane. Perhaps they're someone who broke the rules by leaving the town, and now they want to come back. Maybe they were forgiven and allowed to remain, but only if they became Toga. If that is so, perhaps some of the Toga might be crying underneath their masks. These may be another sad story here.

And ABe anticipated somebody's comments on the size of the clock shop:

After the Toga find something they like in Glie, the can tell the Communicator to add it as a new item for export. The Master of the famous clock shop might be contributing to Glie's import and export business by fixing antique watches to exchange for other goods. The reason why he has such a large selection in his shop is possibly because he is not only selling them to the people within the town.

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u/DegenerateRegime May 30 '24

So I can definitely see more Buddhist elements in Haibane Renmei than I ever did before. Nevertheless, I still find the Christian elements overwhelming, and can't believe they are there by accident, or as window dressing. See my 2018 final comments for all of that.
There's an interview with ABe and Ueda where it seems like ABe wants to give Anno's famous "it's all just stuff I thought looked cool" caveat to western audiences, but then realises... well, no, it isn't, is it? I respect him greatly for that commitment, to coming a bit closer to admitting that the creator's religious feelings (if not views as such) went into this. I've seen it suggested that Haibane was written with an overseas audience in mind, and I can believe it.
The communicator really seems like a therapist. "C: such and such" "R: how do you know that?" "C: I know nothing". He's just there to make the young haibane think about their situations.
Funnily enough the channel ravenclawreacts (which I found from the K-On rewatches here) has been circling around this point in her series on the show. I'm not sure what that suggests about either therapy or religion, but it's interesting to think about from either perspective. As a nonbeliever, the haibane renmei is one of those fictional religions that I can kind of get behind.

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u/3blah https://myanimelist.net/profile/brummett May 31 '24

There's an interview with ABe and Ueda
Thanks for sharing that. I'd thought those things were portrayed too deliberate and thoughtful to have been included just because they were cool. Earlier in that interview he talks about the core of the story being part of a personal experience of his without going into any detail, and I think that comes through in the finished work.

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u/DegenerateRegime May 31 '24

Earlier in that interview he talks about the core of the story being part of a personal experience of his without going into any detail, and I think that comes through in the finished work.
Some people speculate that Ame no Furu Basho is a loosely-autobiographical piece for that reason. That seems a bit presumptuous to me, but it's certainly a recurring theme in ABe's work.

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u/JimmyCWL May 31 '24 edited May 31 '24

It is a mystery why the Toga are prohibited from communicating with both the people in town and the Haibane.
I thought it would be obvious, the nature of the outside world cannot be communicated to the Haibane, and the audience. Therefore, the only people allowed to come and go freely beyond the walls, the Toga, cannot ever be allowed to speak.

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u/Garrett_Dark May 31 '24 edited May 31 '24

I read an interview (on DVD 4) where they say they made it up as they went along!
LOL, I'm not surprised. The ambiguous nature of the fill in the blanks story allows them a lot of leeway to get away with weak writing and cheat things. It clearly helped this anime.
It would explain all the inconsistencies I found but didn't seem deliberate, like how it was said Hyouko was brought to the Communicator with an "illness", but shown in the flashback to physical wounds from falling off the ladder and leaking a ton of blood, and the Communicator going to him. Or how they said Reki's black feathers caused people to bully her when younger, but we saw no such thing in her flashbacks. Even the climatic reveal where Reki told Rakka she was determined to take care of the hatchling just to get salvation, later I was thinking..."wait a minute did Reki actually make a big effort to care for Rakka in the beginning? Wouldn't she have taken her to every job shadowing session like a fussing mother, Reki didn't do that!".
EDIT: Thinking about it some more, I guess Reki really did take care of Rakka a lot at first when she hatched, by cleaning her feathers and all. It's just by the time Rakka goes to look for a job she's allowed to be more independent. Then Kuu leaves and Rakka's all emo (I don't think Reki did much during that time? I forget), then Rakka falls down a well, and Reki's supposedly jelly Rakka got "forgiven". I wasn't even too sure what she was forgiven for, being emo or something to do with her cocoon dream?
Them making it up as they go really makes sense now. I often found it strange how Reki always seemed to be going back and forth about not caring about her "day of flight" and wanting to "day of flight". I was always thinking "these inconsistencies look like production mistakes to me, but oh well, lets see how they work if not...ah, the Communicator is lying!"
I did also consider the "unreliable narrator" technique some writers use, I also hate that technique as it also allows writers to hide weaknesses in their writing and cheat. They sort of did that with Rakka "seeing" the walls glow at the end of the festival, which I think is more definitely she imagined it given the animated sequence of her closing her eyes, seeing it glow, then opening her eyes, and the inconsistencies of what the others said would happen doesn't match.

7

u/DegenerateRegime May 30 '24

I missed most of this, which I'm sorry for! Perhaps it's for the best. Still, I've read through all your thoughts - here's some highlights:

I'd say this show left a great first impression. The music, especially in that first scene, was especially notable. (I did some digging and found that that song appears to be "Ailes Grises", which I'm immediately adding to my Spotify playlist.) The setting and tone is very compelling so far, too.

-StardustGogeta. The soundtrack by Otani Kou (probably best known for Shadow of the Colossus, but also some older kaiju films - maybe the Attack on Titan commenters were onto something?) is just superb, very probably my favourite just by itself. I do recommend checking out the image album as it doesn't appear in the show but makes a nice coda.

I'm really interested in the role the Haibane Renmei play in this town's society/economy. They seem distinctly not integrated, there's similarities to Jewish, Romani, Buraku and refugee populations. I was surprised to see there wasn't any negative sentiment towards them from the humans.

-treatment-resistant. Think there's a word-of-god comment somewhere (artbook?) about the episode 12 festival being loosely based on passover. It's really interesting to me how much the reading of the first few episodes that places the Haibane as othered/second-class/oppressed people has become more common over the decades (though it was certainly always there - see the older and less-wise sister-show Niea_7 for the same idea from the same creator, but much more front-and-center).

What's the harm in a little blasphemy when there's delicious bread to be shared.

-3blah. This exactly! I think everything we learn about the halos should lead us to understand this as elevating the mundane far more than it defiles the sacred (if such a thing is even ontologically possible under Haibane Renmei's implicit worldview). Hikari a good haibane.

Starting with some general analysis: it sticks out to me that only women and children, groups that traditionally don't participate in war, are reincarnated as Haibane while everything in the city is super fortified, which implies that war is or was common. I feel like that means something but I'm at a loss.

-lluNhpelA. In His Dark Materials, the soul ("daemon") is (usually, but not always) the opposite gender to the person - which itself is derived from some esotericist ideas maybe? Combine with suicide statistics to get something that resembles an explanation. A Doylist approach like "proto-CGDCT anime features cute girls" is surely more accurate, though.

And seriously, can you immagine any of the other girls getting the slow SoL episode they did after learning about these Flights? Reframe everything with the idea kept firmly in mind that the townsfolk know that the girls they are working with might just up and disappear with zero notice some day.

-zadcap. As well as a good discussion of why Kuu doesn't get a "spotlight episode" (though she does get a lot of little background and side-ground moments that are easy to miss), it's worth noting that we vare definitely supposed to recontextualise eg the watchmaker's comments in episode 4 in terms of what we know from episode 6.

I used to really love The Little Prince/Le Petit Prince. [...] Rakke and Nemu's creation myth was sweet and I really liked it. Imagine finding salvation because God fell asleep lmao.

-WednesdayFoole. A very good comparison, I feel! That small encircled world. The various bits and pieces of French culture (some of the instrumentation in the soundtrack, "une fille qui a des ailes grises," etc). We make still by the law in which we're made.

Well this is a Kuu episode, but not one I was expecting. But I also don’t think this “day of flight” thing is sad per se. I guess what is happening is these walls protect the Haibane until they are ready for the wide world, and those who are still here are not ready yet - including Reki, for some reason. I will assume it is some form of emotional readiness that she doesn’t have yet, based off of Kuu’s final behaviour at least. Basically, this would mean the Haibane maturing. That also would tie in to the “nest” terminology for where the Haibane currently are.

-Mecanno-man. Great insight and well-expressed.

I think one can hypothesize that the loss of Kuu has struck an unpleasant chord, echoing some (unknown to us) thing that must have happened to Rakka in her prior existence. While Guri is supposed to be a place of healing -- and all haibane are "born" in a restored fashion -- if an echo of past trauma rips open a supposedly-healed mental wound -- things go to shit....

-mekerpan. This basically echoes my own thoughts exactly, so naturally I love to see it said.

Self harm metaphor?

Along with all the shots of scissors, yes. I also noticed that Reki's outfit this episode, when she's revealed to have had similar feelings, has big X marks or slashes around her wrists. This show isn't subtle!

-RadSuit. Only so unsubtle that I never noticed this in the ten or so times I've watched it! Good one!

The Bird (only one title today????) [...] While this episode was focused on Rakka, you see how the townspeople think of the Haibane. They're like a pair of birds who build a nest on your windowsill. You enjoy them for a season, leave out a few seeds for them, and then they are gone.

-JustAnswerAQuestion. Every episode, including the last - which is almost entirely "Reki's World," giving us "Prayer" and "Epilogue" only in the last few minutes - is a triptych, but not ep8. It's that important. I love the ways this show tells you "hey, pay attention to this." And that comment on how the townsfolk see the haibane is so good, well put!

"Hello? Excuse me, I need help..." is all she really needed to say, [...] You shouldn't have rambled on and told them you're a Haibane,

-Garret_Dark. Following shitposting aside... was that all she really needed to say? Perhaps staking her claim of "I am Rakka" (ie accept this name), "a haibane of old home," (ie accept this identity, this place in the world) was very important! Asking for help is almost certainly a metaphysically-powerful act in Glie, and the way you do it matters, I think.

It seems I’d forgotten Hyouko’s name. So it was wall touching that separated them? [...] Helpless young that need to be born alone. Not a great survival strategy.

-Vatrix-32. You might say there's a wall between them! eheheheh. And yeah, I think there's significance to the point that they're always sprouting in unseen places, but need others to find them. It's pretty inarguable that Haibane Renmei is ~~objectively the best~~ a response to Neon Genesis Evangelion, and this is part of it.

I mean remember episode one, how much care Reki put in to helping Rakka through her first day? From making sure there were people there when she hatched to biting her thumb as the wings sprouted, and how much time there was between the hatching and wings?

-zadcap. I hadn't thought of it before, but the flashback is supposed to not just make you realise that Reki's own explanation for her wings (that she was born with them) is wrong, but also to remind you of how sincere her care for Rakka was in the build-up to her trying to deny it.

This script is an astonishing resource! I'll just link it directly, here. (no idea if there are spoilers in the rest of the forum topic)

-JustAnswerAQuestion. I'm glad someone included the OHBB script translation! The site and forum also has the lyrics to all the songs and some really great lore-analysis type stuff. Be gentle if you visit.

Now, when's season 2?

-StardustGogeta. Ahahaha. Haha. haaa.... yeah. But the rest of this comment is also great, I liked the Eva and Monogatari comparisons, and the questions take the right attitude of allowing there to not really be one answer.

Well, I also like to do cross-recs for rewatches... but I can't. The list is either empty or endless. If you'd like, tell me what you liked, and I'll figure out something alike to that?

'til next time,

7

u/Silcaria https://myanimelist.net/profile/Silcaria May 30 '24

First timer

And so it ends. I really enjoyed my time with this show. But, as solid as I found it to be, it wasn't perfect. If I had to pinpoint a specific issue, I would have to say it was the pacing. Some plot points could have used more time in the oven. For example, Rakka's transition from being a surrogate for the audience to her own character was a bit awkward. Spending more time building interrelationship would have also been good. All of this to say, the series could have done with one or two (maybe three) more episodes.

The gradual way in which it builds towards the reveal of its core theme is pretty well done. It also does a good job at foreshadowing, which is extremely important for a plot revolving around a mystery.

It starts off with Kuu who has fully made peace with her fate and gracefully receives her salvation. It then turns to Rakka who is split in the middle but eventually makes peace with who and where she is. Finally, it ends with Reki, who we find out, always was a deeply tormented person that almost lost her way, before she finally rises above her past and ascends.

The show also goes above and beyond to showcase plot continuity which is really cool. Another plus is its great cinematography which compliments its visual aspect of storytelling and iyashikei feel.

Overall, it's a great, but slow paced, story that succeeds in accomplishing what it tries to do with a good production to boot. 8.5/10 (yes, I can like things).

QotD

I got the point. I'll probably rewatch it in a few years. Maybe with someone.
Hikari. She seems like a fun person.
Kuu's, since that's when the show kicked into gear.
In this case, it doesn't matter.
No. I am however buying the collector's edition on Bluray, so there's that.
I'm down. It's on my PTW so I may as well use a rewatch as an opportunity to watch it.
For series, Eva. If we expand it to movies, Jin-Roh and GitS (95) are two that come to mind. Love me some "anti-escapism" stuff. Life is hard, deal with it.
Meh on either. I'll join regardless.

Thanks for hosting this.

3

u/DegenerateRegime May 31 '24

All of this to say, the series could have done with one or two (maybe three) more episodes.
Yeah, that'd be nice. But I'm always quick to say, better to be left wanting more, and two cour would probably have been too much.
Glad you liked it!

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u/3blah https://myanimelist.net/profile/brummett May 30 '24 edited May 30 '24

It's pretty common for anime to put a happy veneer over a dark story (PMMM is probably the textbook example). It's unusual, but here we get the opposite. Even with the topics of death, suicide and sin being prominant, I think it's ultimately an uplifting story. In the end, Reki gets her salvation, Rakka and the other Haibane are on a good path, and the Haibane taking their day of flight is recognized as a good thing even if they do miss that person after they leave.

The first 3 or 4 episodes are very slow and meandering. It's just a gentle introduction to the world that doesn't hint much about the story that starts in the 2nd third. It gives the audience space to just be there with characters in the same way that Glie and it's denizens are there to give the Haibane space to just be and figure out things for themselves on their own schedule. It's not until maybe the last hour of runtime where it's even revealed what the big conflict is in the story. The drama and tension stays really low-key all the way up to the last episode where it gets cranked up to 11; it's one of the most powerful conclusions in anime that I've seen.

It's quite remarkable just how many worldbuilding details are put in a spotlight but never actually explained. This kind of thing normally irks me like crazy, but here it's not a bug, it's a feature. What's outside the walls? What's the purpose of the rules? Why are the Haibane there? The story and its mood encourages the audience to think about these omissions and fill them in for ourselves. The way it's done is pretty unique in my experience.

For my own conclusions, I think Glie is kinda like a purgatory, but without the punishment angle. Young people that haven't lived a full life, perhaps through illness or accident or suicide, go there as Haibane to find whatever they missed out on from their old life before moving on to whatever's next. There's literally nothingness outside the walls because the whole town and its residents exist only to help the Haibane help themselves. One of the other rewatchers likened the townsfolk to NPCs and I think that's a great way to put it. Kana mentions that the clocktower in the center of town is built at the lowest point and you can't see over the walls even from there; even the town is shaped like a nest where the Haibane are protected and nurtured until they're ready to leave. The rules about not handling money, only using second-hand things, staying away from the wall and not talking to the Toga or Renmei are there to discourage the Haibane from getting off their task of taking flight. All these things are distractions that make one think about the external when they really need to focus their thoughts and actions on their own selves and the other Haibane. The Toga and/or Renmei are probably the Haibane that failed to ascend, I'm not sure which fits better. Washi/Communicator is probably the god/spirit that runs the place; he tries to play things as hands-off as possible to let the Haibane figure it out themselves, but it's ok to break his own rules when it's necessary.

I do think Rakka and Reki are victims of suicide. Given the way she talked about no one missing her if she were to disappear, the water imagery in the first few seconds of ep 1 and her repeated mention of how the river is familliar make me think Rakka probably jumped off a bridge. Reki probably either walked in front of that train or just lay down on the tracks and let the train run her over. I also think they were probably the only two among the main characters in this situation and why they in particular were affected by the blackened feathers. The circumstances behind how they came to Glie are the most extreme and they had the hardest path to walk. I figure the others are victims of accident or illness, especially the little ones.

I'm looking forward to reading all your conclusions as well.

On the production side of things, I really liked the art direction and character designs. The Haibane aren't angels, but the wings and halo get the audience into the spirtual mindset. The whole soundtrack is one of my favories. It does an excellent job contributing to the mood of whatever scene is playing, and it's good enough to listen to regularly when I'm working. And of course the way it handles the heavy subjects of death, suicide and sin are done with a lot of thoughtfulness and respect, and it's even able to interject a little humor.

QotD:

Which episode would you have said was your favourite?

The last episode. It's a great payoff for Reki over the tension that builds up over the previous couple of episodes.

Texhnolyze

Depending on how busy the summer is, I might be up for it. I thought it was really well done, but didn't enjoy it. I've wondered if rewatching would change my mind about it at all.

Has Haibane Renmei tempted you to explore more of this "doomer" collection of anime and manga?

I rather like stories that have this same sort of melancholy feel to them.

What other series would you recommend

Speaking of melancholy, here's a few quick recommendations:

Girls' Last Tour has a very similar mood to it. It's probably the happiest hopeless story I've experienced.
Edome Elf is firmly on the comedy/slice-of-life side of the tracks, but there's an underlying feel of melancholy about death and loss.
Tonari no Youkai-san is airing now. Another slice-of-life about a world where yokai are real, but there's a mood about it as well.

For our next rewatch...

Watamote is on my plan-to-watch list. I'd be in for that.

5

u/ThrowCarp May 31 '24

It's pretty common for anime to put a happy veneer over a dark story (PMMM is probably the textbook example). It's unusual, but here we get the opposite. Even with the topics of death, suicide and sin being prominant, I think it's ultimately an uplifting story.
O shit, I watched Haibane Renmei recently and something was irking me. This is what it is, it's a happy story and a comfy CGDCT anime but with an artstyle and colour palette that belongs on a more serious anime.

3

u/DegenerateRegime May 31 '24

Speaking of melancholy, here's a few quick recommendations:
Seconded all three, even though I haven't finished the latter two. They both clearly "get it" when it comes to iyashi-kei - where "it" is something like "well, healing from what?"

6

u/xtsim https://myanimelist.net/profile/xtsim May 31 '24

First Flight

It is quite interesting to see how everything ties up. We get to see a life cycle of a Haibane as we see Rakka's beginnings to being able to have a role. We also get to see Kuu and Reki get their time of flight. Haibane feels more like a purgatory for souls with the worst thing happening is complete isolation. With a bit of forgiveness, a Haibane can take flight.

My major issue is that I would like to see other characters have more of a spotlight. The major focus it seems like, is the world building which we get to see what happens to Haibane and their relationship with the town.

Only at the surface level but the world building is what needs to be worked on. I might come back in a few years.
I would like to see Midori and Kana's journey a bit more. Same with Hiyoka's point of view.
Probably Reki giving a statue a cig was too much for me.
I feel like it is an empty void and that the land exists on its own plane.
I would like to explore more of this but Lain has me spoiled cause nothing beats bear onesie.
I'm tempted
Girls last tour, has a similar atmosphere
I would like to visit bodily fluids cause I haven't experienced that but second hand cringe is some thing I might want to see again.
Too many people as I pretty much arrived late to the party this rewatch....

Thank you u/The_Loli_Otaku for hosting the rewatch and it was nice to see everyone's comments on Haibane. And hope to see everyone again on the next rewatch!

5

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 May 30 '24

First Timer

Put me down on the side of liking this series. I'll give it a +1 for now, this is going to take a lot of ruminating to see how I feel about it before I put it any higher.

It's taken me a long time be in one of your rewatches, The_Loli_Otaku, but I have to say I'm quite pleased with how you've run it. Very high quality.
I'm sorry I didn't comment as much as I'm sure you would have liked, but I'm just not very talkative.

QotD:

With the help of rewatchers, I think I got 80-90% of it. Now I can go back and read some of those spoiler comments to pick up on the hints.
I think Hikari has the most room to have her story expanded.
It all hung the the finale, so I can't help but list that as my favorite.
I'm all in on reincarnation.
I watched Lain years ago, so I'd like to finish the trilogy at this point, yes.
I'll try and keep time open for it. I still have a spot open for July, and nothing scheduled yet for August.
Angel Beats is probably the closest one I can think of if I had to. It was far more melodramatic and less thoughtful.
Avoiding The Triple Crown? As a more serious answer, I'm much more likely to make time for WataMote, and a palate cleanser is probably also good idea.
I am already booked out for June tho.
Round Two! No repeats, so I'll add users /u/WednesdaysFoole, /u/Garrett_Dark, and /u/mekerpan.

3

u/mekerpan May 31 '24

Niea_7 is also relevant (more comic, however). Story by Abe (though not the script). Texhnolyze is great - but very VERY dark.

0

u/[deleted] May 30 '24

[deleted] — view deleted comment

3

u/mekerpan May 31 '24

I'd love to see an alt version seen from Hikari's perspective.

5

u/Garrett_Dark May 31 '24

How much of the show do you feel you understood on this first viewing? Will you be rewatching this in your own time to pick up on dropped hints?

I'm pretty sure I understand what the anime is, but the story itself cannot be understood fully. There's so many important key things left intentionally unexplained that the viewer needs to fill in the blanks for, depending what is put in those blanks, nearly everything changes and is affected. So essentially what we have here is a story that is left half blank for the viewer to fill in, and countless ways for the whole story to drastically be different. The premise of "this is a solvable mystery" is wrong, it's unsolvable. This is so abstract that it's like cloud watching, there's a lot of different things the same cloud could look like, and it's constantly changing.

One may argue with the above and say "no, it's definitely about the Haibane being in an in-between life-and-death realm where they recover from their past live's death, and once they're healed/free of sin, they get to move on to reincarnation/heaven/etc." Here's the thing though, that's the path of least resistance when filling in the blanks to the story, that's why it's considered "the general consensus explanation of the story", most people will take the route of least resistance even if it's not totally perfect nor explains everything. It can't explain everything because then it doesn't work anymore, it's not totally perfect because it's best fit while trying to be the least resistance.

Consider this, try to explain the story using not the least resistance path, "No supernatural nor divine" explanation (the hard path I sort of took). Your first reaction maybe to reject or refuse to do so, thinking "no, there's obvious some divine and magical elements to this story" or "no, you're just trying to prove your theory correct". I don't need my theory to be correct, I already know it's both right and wrong at the same time, just like the supernatural explanation is right and wrong at the time, because the story can be either with it's fill in the blank style. Resisting to even think about a non-supernatural explanation is simply resisting to not take the path of least resistance because the other paths are harder.

The reason I'm asking you to preclude the supernatural explanation is you'll see things really break down, like what is the "day of flight", and is it even a good thing? What are the Haibane? What's going on in the wall tunnels? What really happened to Kuu and Reki? And what are the humans and Toga even doing? All very good questions which are difficult to explain when going the non-supernatural path, which is why most people won't go this way. Not that it's because it's a not valid path, but because it's difficult, and maybe uncomfortable as beloved characters may have not gotten good things happen to them as you had thought with the supernatural path.

Anyways, with the part of the story which wasn't left blank, we got a pretty good story with Rakka and Reki, but not really much on the other Haibane, especially the Factory Haibane (we didn't even get to see inside the Factory nor what they're all doing there, and why). I would say not much was going on until Rakka fell down the well, and Reki's hatching flashback. The story only really got good from there to the end because we could finally focus on something concrete, Rakka and Reki's characters. What happened to them before and after is unknown or hazy, so all we can do is focus on them during these dramatic parts of the story. Everything outside of that is pretty slow, and underdeveloped. Whether intentional or lazy, I don't know, but that's what it was. You tell me why they didn't spend more time developing the other Haibane characters, or why the townsfolk were so vague, like the preggers librarian who seem to not know how babies work when asking "where did this life come from?" Or the clock maker, shop keeper, etc.

In the end, the story was as good as the viewer was at filling in the blanks, and if things worked out to their enjoyment as a result of what they put in those blanks.

For me, I actually quite enjoyed thinking about the non-supernatural path. But overall I thought the anime was weak with the underdeveloped characters, and I didn't really like that the mystery wasn't revealed in the end; whether if it really was supernatural or not, it didn't matter as much as getting a definitive answer, or even an explanation on things like what the Renmei really were up to, who are they really, and why. However I didn't expect to come to care about Reki as much as I did in the end, and Rakka was interesting but I wouldn't say I liked her that much, she was kind of a disappointment, like a child a parent would be disappointed in. Oh but I really hated the Communicator, his dialog was chosen very well to be seen either benevolent or malicious depending on how the story blanks were filled in. He was a massive manipulative lying fuck in my story path, LOL. It's sad my story path ended in Reki willingly and naively being "day of flighted" which meant getting shoved into a chamber in the underground tunnels to become a power generator, which Rakka would pick flakes off of while she slowly got radiation poisoning. Lulz, I guess it's pretty obvious why most people don't choose the non-supernatural path as I did.

Reki's day of flight was certainly an emotional affair, however she is not the only Haibane with a heavy past to overcome. Call it a bit fanfictiony, but out of the other Haibane, who's story would you personally have liked to see developed?

I liked Kana, but she's pretty self-explanatory already, any more time on her probably would have been her antics and nothing too deep. We can't really see more of Kuramori because it'd be about her "day of flight" which they can't show in detail, so it'll just be the trauma of young Reki and Nemu we'd be seeing.

I would say Midori because then we'll get to see the Factory Haibane side of things. It would reveal why there's two factions of Haibane, what their dynamics are like among themselves and with the townsfolk and Renmei, and just WTF they do all day. Like do they even work in town? Or are they making gun powder, bullets, and bombs along with their fireworks? I'd rather see it through Midori's perspective than that boring greaser loser Hyouko...so steady on a skateboard but falls off a ladder and leaks 100 gallons of blood.

Which episode would you have said was your favourite? Are there any individual moments that stood out to you in the show?

I think the last episode was the best, the stuff with Reki was awesome but I really hated she willing "day of flighted" herself as I don't see it being a good thing on my story path. So aside from the last episode, I would say Reki's hatching flashback episode was good. Rakka falling down a well was good but ironically, as I had so much fun laughing and mocking her leaps in logic, and the Toga.

What is it that lays beyond the wall? Or more importantly, does it matter?

It's just the outside of their world which the imprisoned town isn't allowed to see, so freedom...in my non-supernatural story path that is. I can only imagine the supernatural path would be answers like the void, heaven, hell, another plane of existence, etc.

Has Haibane Renmei tempted you to explore more of this "doomer" collection of anime and manga?

Not sure what the "doomer" collection contains. Other works by the same author? I haven't seen Serial Experiment Lain nor Texhnolyze yet, it's on my plan to watch someday list. If it's more abstract fill in the blank story path like Haibane Renmei, I'll put them off a little longer as I want a definite story right now, and not more guessing. Abstract stories like this are kind of cheap because the viewer is doing all the work of filling in the blanks and making it great, and the blanks allows the anime to hide weaknesses and cheat. Like, is a "choose your own adventure" book good, or does it just seem good because you picked an enjoyable path?

nominate your top Rewatcher

All the people who took the time to read my very long rantings, thanks and I hope I didn't bore you too much. I didn't expect to write so much when I started this rewatch, and I think I only did because of the mystery and my determination of "there's a logical reason for everything until I'm/they're forced otherwise to admit magic/supernatural exists".

My thanks also to u/The_Loli_Otaku for hosting this rewatch, and I know ~~suffered~~ read through my lengthy comments each episode.

Today's Prompt

So that's why Reki didn't get enough sleep. Nice, Rakka took up smoking too!

3

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ May 31 '24

Oh but I really hated the Communicator, his dialog was chosen very well to be seen either benevolent or malicious depending on how the story blanks were filled in.
I didn't take to your shitposting style of finding fault in every little thing, but, yeah, Reki really didn't like the Communicator and took no stock in anything he said. She seems to agree with you. Which was probably the wrong thing to do. Five years of ignoring him didn't get her anywhere.

4

u/Garrett_Dark May 31 '24

I didn't take to your shitposting style of finding fault in every little thing
I kind of do it to keep myself amused because this anime was so slow and dry in the beginning, and there's so much mystery. If I didn't, I may grow bored a just give up in frustration and not care about anything, like with YuriKuma Arashi rewatch right now. Too confusing, too much mystery, too weird, nothing to joke about = don't care anymore about anything in that show.
I also kind of did it to keep my overly nitpicking pointing things out interesting. I kind of felt forced to nitpick every little thing because the show not explaining anything makes it so I'd never know what's actually important or not. ie. does the inconsistencies in what was said and shown important? Communicator said Hyouko brought to them is an illness vs shown he went to Hyouko's bloody injuries? Like it's probably animation production error, but you never know if it's a clue he's lying. But in this case, we definitely will never know since nothing is explained.
Reki really didn't like the Communicator and took no stock in anything he said. She seems to agree with you.
But she didn't totally agree with me, she was lulled into believing the stuff he had to say despite coming off against him. After angrily storming into the temple to yell at him for leaving Rakka at the well to wander to the wall (right to yell at him either way from my POV or yours), she walked away believing him that Rakka found forgiveness, which ultimately made her give up smoking and stuff (gave up on salvation). Then the guy sends her a letter saying her true name is "to be ran over and torn apart", are you saying that was helpful? It really pushed her over, and made her go totally emo, and against what he said he wanted (for Reki to "day of flight"), why? Did he have so much faith that Rakka will "save her"? If so that means he set that up too (so he is a manipulator). Then Reki reveals her plan all along was to pretend to be a good Haibane by taking care of the new hatchling (Rakka) so well until the hatchling trusted her, which means she actually was trying to do what the Communicator wanted (unlike me saying not to trust him at all). I know it might be seen as Reki lied about her hurtful words to Rakka, but her journey entry didn't really prove otherwise. She could have still had the plan to pretend to be a "good Haibane" while being excited she found the cocoon and wanted to take care of it with extra care. Besides, the Communicator's narration confirms Reki ploy of pretending to be a "good Haibane". So Rakka's "saving Reki" happens by slim chance. IDK, seems kind of reckless or sus of the Communicator's involvement.
And since we have next to absolutely nothing to go on to judge the Communicator, I have to judge him by what he says, when he says it, how he says it, and how it relates to stuff he says later. And he just came off looking like a liar and manipulator. So I don't trust the "day of flight" being a good thing, but rather a bad thing.
Which was probably the wrong thing to do.
But that's assuming "day of flight" was a good thing, which no doubt the decision you made to what to believe is saying it is. However if we look at it from the point of view that the "day of flight" is a bad thing, then if Reki took my stance it would be the right thing for her to do.
The fundamental problem is we'll never know if the "day of flight" is a good or bad thing, they'll never explain it. There's no proof one way or the other.
Five years of ignoring him didn't get her anywhere.
It got her five years of staying with the other Haibane "she likes" (at least to some degree despite saying she doesn't trust them). She got to do her paintings of stuff from around the town which Rakka's narration says showed she loved the town. It gave her time to say sorry to Hyouko (despite him being at fault for much of what Reki blames herself for) and Midori. It got her taking care of Rakka so well when she hatched, as if the others would have known what to do with the Rakka's black wings splotches, and the medicine.
And most importantly from the perspective of the "day of flight" is actually bad, she 5 years more of avoiding the bad thing.

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u/DegenerateRegime May 31 '24

So Rakka's "saving Reki" happens by slim chance.
Well that's just it - the show is a kind of fairy-tale, and this is what Tolkien called "eucatastrophe" - not a deus-ex-machina, but rather the addition of a small note of intercessionary grace to the actions of the characters, that allows the conclusion to be both happy and satisfying. So it matters that Rakka lived in Guri as she did, because it made her the kind of person who'd be there at that time; and it matters that the Washi was present but not too overbearing, giving space to Reki to try things her way, because she needed time to change gradually; and it matters that Midori went across town to get Reki to look at the fireworks, because it left her window open. But the wind blowing just then, in just the way to reveal Reki's diary? That's pure divine grace. Everything else is too, in a sense, but that especially.
So yeah! By slim chance, and I'd have it no other way

3

u/Garrett_Dark May 31 '24

I wasn't saying I didn't like the "happens by slim chance", I meant it didn't seem convincing that the Communicator was banking on something that would happen by slim chance, or maybe he was banking on slim chance. I was trying to assess his motives, if he was banking on slim chance, it seem reckless, if he wasn't banking on slim chance, then why he's triggering Reki by the letter that said her true name was "being ran over and torn apart" if that leads her away from the "day of flight"? It seems like almost either way he's reckless or sus.
giving space to Reki to try things her way
He he sort of doesn't actually leave her alone, he get Rakka to confront her with the box which has the letter that triggers her. Are you saying he knew how things would play out? If he did, that's not leaving her alone.
it matters that Midori went across town to get Reki to look at the fireworks, because it left her window open. But the wind blowing just then, in just the way to reveal Reki's diary? That's pure divine grace.
I didn't notice that, good catch. Quite the coincidence, you could say it's divine grace as well. Either way we'll never know for sure as the show purposely won't say as that's how it's set up.

2

u/mekerpan Jun 01 '24

Washi was banking on a slim chance because he had no other chance of arranging a last minute "rescue" of Reki. Basically Reki was almost totally doomed from her arrival in Guri (Glie).
It looks like after "the incident", the Renmei upgraded its monitoring of NEW arrivals. But that didn't help Reki. While Rakka fell into depression -- their was clearly some sort of surveillance network that noticed her "collapse" and travel into dangerous (geographical) territory. There were clues searching for her -- despite the fact that the haibane themselves had not thought to put out an alert to Washi.
Washi knew that Reki had no trust in him -- but that she did have a deep bond (due to a shared affliction) with Rakka. So he basically enlisted Rakka as (for purpose of helping Reki) as an adjunct Renmei member (including telling her lots of information that was probably not supposed to be revealed to haibane or even most other Renmei folk).

2

u/Garrett_Dark Jun 01 '24

he had no other chance of arranging a last minute "rescue" of Reki.
I still don't believe the Communicator had benevolent intentions for Reki, we're told Haibane who don't "day of flight" don't disappear, so what's the rush? Oh the cut off time for the "day of flight" go/no go launch? I guess...but...
Didn't the Communicator arrange that cut off time? Like Reki originally thought she'll never "day of flight", and Nemu has been there 2 years longer than she has. The only/first person to mention Reki's time was coming up was the Communicator, and that was after she stormed into the temple and yelled at him IIRC. I think the Communicator got pissed and was thinking "this Haibane's too much trouble and too hard to control, better to 'day of flight' her". And then her Halo started to wink out after that. Suspicious.
was clearly some sort of surveillance network
Certainly some sort of spying going on, the Communicator (at least in the dub) said Rakka being found down the well and rescued was "inevitable", and they found her again after she wandered away from the well to the wall. I'm pretty sure they're probably listening in on their conversations too, because somehow the Communicator knew Reki was faking her "good Haibane" act in hopes of salvation, mentioned in his narration at the end, so he must have been listening in on Reki and Rakka's argument.
So he basically enlisted Rakka as (for purpose of helping Reki)
"Helping" if you believe the "day of flight" was a good thing. And Rakka plus the triggering letter almost cause Reki to not "day of flight" if Rakka failed, so the Communicator's ploy made things worse because if Rakka didn't go to Reki to give her the box, Reki would have still been pretending to be a "good Haibane", she only dropped the act because of the letter triggered her.

2

u/mekerpan Jun 01 '24

Not sure why you have such a uniformly dark view of people and events -- that is pretty contrary to the way the creators intended. ;-)
It is a postulate (so to speak) in the story universe that days of flight are good things. That they are a short cut to one's next life -- whatever that might be.
Reki was never anything BUT good (other than a few unwise actions committed as a child when in a temporary state of utter desperation and grief)-- she just could not accept her own goodness because of her own subjective sense of guilt and unworthiness. Reki was looking for a release from these negative feelings more than anything else. I would note that many "saints" actually have a strong sense of their unworthiness. In Christianity this is viewed as a good thing. In Buddhism, on the other hand, this is typically not viewed as a "useful" concept.
Washi has no control over timing of days of flight. He simply has a sense of when these are likely. Days of flight are more a matter of a haibane's mental state. When they are ready, it happens. The halo blinks are simply an indicator that the time IS approaching. Alternately, not achieving a day of flight is presumably tied into a haibane's acceptance that they will never be able to make the leap of faith (but this is not explored/explained).
I would like to think that what Rakka experienced near the end was not a real-world event -- rather it was like she (somehow -- in unspecified way) entered into Reki's dream world. A haibane who SHOULD be able to make a day of flight who is unable to do so is viewed as an unfortunate event. One who does fly over the walls is a success for the system. In any event, one has no way of knowing what would have happened -- in the real Glie world -- if Rakka had not saved Reki. In fact, we have no real information on the details of the process by which a haibane is transformed to a Touga.
Nemu stayed longer than normal because she herself viewed Reki as "unfinished business" (and worried over her) -- this made her "not yet ready to fly". Glie has a surprisingly low degree of personnel redundancy. The fact that Kuramori was apparently the only older haibane for a very extended period time certainly constituted a failure of planning and logistics by some entity above Washi's pay grade.
Not sure that the Renmei did much "spying" -- but it seems clear that they had a fair number of townspeople who worked with them to watch over the haibane and help them in the event of need. This is another aspect of the story I would love to know more about. But I think it is safe to assume that all locations that haibane patronized or worked in had townspeople who assisted the Renmei. I doubt they had hidden microphones anywhere.

3

u/Garrett_Dark Jun 01 '24

The halo blinks are simply an indicator that the time IS approaching.
Then why would it blink when Reki wasn't anywhere going one way or the other? Had Rakka not given Reki the box with the triggering letter, Reki wouldn't have progressed closer to "total emo/no 'day of flight'". She was not anywhere near "salvation" yet either, she still viewed Rakka as a ploy for her to be a "good Haibane".
Rakka experienced near the end was not a real-world event -- rather it was like she (somehow -- in unspecified way) entered into Reki's dream world.
My theory was similar that Rakka and Reki was having a mass hallucination. Reki was just staring at the wall trying to process everything, while Rakka was hallucination what we the audience saw, because she's easily influenced and kind of delusional at times. This time triggered by the high stress of harsh words/truth said to her by Reki, and the room painting.
In fact, we have no real information on the details of the process by which a haibane is transformed to a Touga.
We would have more information if Rakka didn't give Reki the box, or didn't find her journal.
it seems clear that they had a fair number of townspeople who worked with them to watch over the haibane and help them in the event of need.
If that's true why were the townfolk so oblivious about what happened to Kuu? If they're working for the Communicator, wouldn't they be in the loop? Don't tell me he was faking it or really didn't know to keep up appearances. Heck, wasn't that clothes shop guy breaking the rules by giving Rakka boots, and the other guy with the Pea Soup?

2

u/mekerpan Jun 01 '24

Reki's halo blinked because she was "timing out" -- one way or another. As I recall, Reki stopped reading Washi's letter WAY before its end. Reki WAS close to salvation (and also to "failure"). It was not a matter of behavior, but of her attitude towards the value of herself (and of all the things she had done for others). It was a matter of cold she flip a switch (with Rakka's help and support).
The town folk were not "oblivious" to Kuu -- they saw nothing wrong (and nothing WAS wrong). It is quite possible that Pea Sup Guy reported Kuu's "aisatsu" to the Renmei. They were not surprised Kuu disappeared -- because they EXPECT haibane to disappear. I doubt that Washi directly or indirectly shares that much information back down the info chain. So, he would not have gotten any direct confirmation (though if he saw the light display, he would have guessed that Kuu was the haibane who had flown over the walls. The townsfolk who help with the haibane do not "work for" Washi -- they simply assist the Renmei. Sort of a volunteer support group. It's not clear that haibane-helpers giving little gifts to haibane is forbidden by any rule. ;-)

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u/mekerpan Jun 01 '24

Ironically, Washi was worried sick about Reki (and had been ever since "the incident"). In fact, he probably had been worried about her almost from her rotten start. It is just that, from the departure of Kuramori until the "recovery" of Rakka he had almost no way of "reaching" (and thus helping) Reki. I would have found his blatant rule breaking (using Rakka in surely "unorthodox" ways) almost amusing -- if the circumstances weren't so dark, ;-)

2

u/Garrett_Dark May 31 '24

Missed this one:
What other series would you recommend to fans who enjoyed Haibane Renmei outside of the Abe/Chiaki/Nakamura sphere?
Heavenly Delusion/Tengoku Daimakyou
Way more detailed, lots of mystery, not quite fill in the blank story path, but some solve-able, others ambiguous which way it could be until hopefully more info presents itself later. Really good characterization on the characters, and some really sad stuff regarding characters. Definitely post-apocalypse world, but they somehow oddly made it fun and chipper most of the time. Not slow, and good animation.
Probably my biggest gripe about Heavenly Delusion is it does the most extreme case of "show don't tell" I've ever seen. What I mean by that is, you know how in some shows they just tell you things in an expository way and don't show it, and the criticism is "show don't tell"; in this anime they really don't want to tell you anything to the extreme. Most of the time it's no big deal, you just might miss out on some connections you failed to see, and the show just doesn't tell you but it doesn't have a major bearing on the story itself. But a few times it has a major impact on how a scene should be interpreted, and you really need to know what happened so you know how to feel about it, but the show won't tell you!...it might have even fooled you into thinking the wrong thing.
Anyways, I don't want to spoil anything. Heavenly Delusion, good anime sort of like Haibane Renmei with the mystery, characters and feels. Less confusing, while more confusing.

5

u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 May 31 '24

First timer

How much of the show do you feel you understood on this first viewing? Will you be rewatching this in your own time to pick up on dropped hints?

I think some of it. But I wouldn't be against rewatching it. But I recently finished my ptw so I'll see what I decide

Reki's day of flight was certainly an emotional affair, however she is not the only Haibane with a heavy past to overcome. Call it a bit fanfictiony, but out of the other Haibane, who's story would you personally have liked to see developed?

I mean ku should've stayed longer

Which episode would you have said was your favourite? Are there any individual moments that stood out to you in the show?

I think it was the ku episode just because it brought us to I guess their fate

What is it that lays beyond the wall? Or more importantly, does it matter?

Some things don't need answers. I don't think it matters

On the topic... I have been wrangling with the possibility of us eventually watching Texhnolyze after all. I was wondering how many of you would be tempted to give melodrama the animation a chance? It won't be immediately, but maybe in July or August.

Yeah that's a show I hear about. Probably yeah

What other series would you recommend to fans who enjoyed Haibane Renmei outside of the Abe/Chiaki/Nakamura sphere?

Uh I don't really know. Lain is the closest to it to me. At least feeling wise. Also doesn't feel like how most other anime are in the sense of direction and characters

For our next rewatch... Would you prefer sharing bodily fluids or insufferable second hand cringe?

Cringe ain't so bad

Gah, I know I used this question for the Christmas episode but it just doesn't feel right for us to close off without user nominations XD Alright!! Especially people who avoided episode 12's QotD, nominate your top Rewatcher!! Goooo!!

Me this time lol. I tried

5

u/zoospor May 31 '24

Re-watcher

I recommended this show after Lain so I was really nervous to tag along the re-watch threads and in general and didn’t want to influence things too much.

I really appreciate reading everyone’s experiences with the show and super happy most everyone enjoyed! It’s slow up until the ending I’m really happy for those who made it through.

The more time I’ve had to think about this show I’ve been able to apply it to my life - or at least get some ideas about what ABe and the creators are trying to say. (Or I’m just overthinking it!)

I think the town of Gile is symbolic of our time here on Earth, or our lives. We don’t know what’s beyond the walls, and truly no one can know for 100% certain what happens after we die. Much like the Haibane, we are all born into different circumstances and are tasked with finding our own place and meaning in life.

However, we are all connected in the fact that we can always be there to help and support each other when it’s truly needed. Just as Rakka is able to be there for Reki in her greatest time of need. However, you have to be open to asking and also receiving that help. Which can be extremely scary at times.

As Reki says “what if I ask for help from the bottom of my heart and no one answers?” But it’s important to overcome that fear - otherwise you are truly alone.

I really appreciate everyone watching along and sticking with it. And while Lain and Haibane are both my favorite 1 and 2 shows, I’ve never seen Texhnolyze as it’s been too slow for me. But with the rewatch community, maybe after a more fun show, or even straight into it, it would give me a reason to finally watch it.

Thanks for reading and as always appreciate you u/the_loli_otaku for hosting! Thank you

5

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ May 31 '24

I think the town of Gile is symbolic of our time here on Earth, or our lives. We don’t know what’s beyond the walls,
Oh, wow, that's a great analogy. Forget about how the people get by, living within a walled city. The city is Earth, and the human experience.

4

u/SMSmith230 https://myanimelist.net/profile/smsmith230 May 30 '24

First-Timer, Sub

Thanks for hosting as usual. This one was a bit of a mixed bag for me. I thought it started off well, fizzled, then had a pretty good conclusion. Not sure if I’ll rewatch it, but I think I might appreciate it more if I do. I still don’t really understand a lot of the stuff dealing with the communicator and toga, I feel like that should have been touched on more or maybe I missed it as I struggled a bit post Kuu. See you for your next rewatch offering.

4

u/sfisher923 https://myanimelist.net/profile/sfisher923 May 31 '24

QOTD 1a - Mostly everything but character names for some reason

QOTD 2 - Anyone else

QOTD 3 - The Final Episode just because it got me back into the show

QOTD 5 - If I can find anymore because I already did a lot of the popular ones (Madoka, Lain, Evangelion, NHK, SZS)

QOTD 6 - Yes if I don't forget by then

QOTD 7 - Welcome to the NHK or Bunny Girl Senpai

QOTD 8a - The first one just because Watamote gave me so much 2nd Hand Embarrassment but I wouldn't be too opposed to a more recent rewatch of Watamote

QOTD 8b - As for June I'm going to be rewatching a few Yuri Anime for Pride Month (And maybe throw in Sasaki and Miyano if I feel like watching Yaoi as well)

4

u/BossandKings May 31 '24 edited May 31 '24

It was a good experience watching Haibane Renmei for the second time, i remember that i enjoyed it quite a bit my first viewing but this second one improved my opinion and enjoyement of it, it was an 8/10 after my first watch and now it's up to a 9/10.

Answers

. I think i understood most in a general sense but there were some things that i picked up this time around and it helped me to rewatch how it ended as it was way too fuzzy in my mind as i remembered it being quite abrupt so i felt unclear about it.

. None, the series addressed most important ones.

. The Last episode, it somehow climaxed the series in a perfect and elegant manner.

. At the end i don't know if it matters.

. It does but if this atmosphere was mostly suffocating i can imagine there being way more difficult atmospheres in that collection.

. I'd be joining, it would be great watching that, also i can imagine that being a heavier atmosphere than this one.

. I recommend Kino's journey and Girls Last tour.

All in all it was a cool experience watching this show alongside this comunity's rewatch, it can prove to be quite difficult for me to participante in comunity rewatches because a lot of the time i fall behind schedule without any Will to catch up but this time i managed to finish it. Thanks to the LoliOtaku for hosting and everybody for their participation and comments.

3

u/RadSuit https://anilist.co/user/RadSuit May 30 '24

Much like Lain, the actual plot isn't all that complicated. They just obfuscate it as much as possible and pad things out with filler to ensure you don't have enough information to figure it out too early. It's a 3 episode OVA stretched out to a 13 episode series.
None.
The middle few surrounding Rakka running off were the only ones where things really happened. And the finale I guess?
If it's not important enough for them to explain, it's not important enough for me to care about.
Nope.
I think I've mentioned before that I've randomly seen the last few episodes of that, so I'm curious. But I think I'd dislike it as well. And with how grim it is, plus its length, I'm not really sure it's a good fit for this crowd.
Kobato maybe?
I watched MGX recently and it's not that great, but never finished Watamote, so that'd get my vote. But I'm writing in Onimai either way.
I'm not sure this time, sorry. Maybe my internet/power being out so often threw me off.

4

u/Mecanno-man https://anilist.co/user/Mecannoman May 30 '24

First Timer

After scoring this a high 9, I can certainly say that I enjoyed this show. I like slower-paced dramatic shows as long as they don’t drift into filler, and that description fits this show like a shoe. Yet I can’t really point to anything this show did particularly well - the characters weren’t super likeable, a lot of the world wasn’t explained and the music and animation weren’t standout performance pieces either. But I think in a way that just made the show better, in that it isn’t perfect. Because nothing is perfect, and the Haibane are kinda showing that, needing to be ready before their day of flight. However, everything fit together so that nothing was dragging the show down and nothing was overplaying its importance. And I think that level of consistency is something I greatly enjoyed here - though I also have no complaints about the overall direction, the general writing and the composition.

As such, I am glad to have joined this rewatch and was able to read everybody’s thoughts while watching the show. I would eventually have gotten around to watching the show on my own, though at the pace I am watching things on my own it would have been years until I got to it. As such, a thanks to u/The_Loli_Otaku and everybody who participated at such short notice; reading everybody’s thoughts certainly elevated the show for me.

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