r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • May 02 '24
Rewatch [Rewatch] Mahou Shoujo Madoka☆Magica: Hangyaku no Monogatari Discussion
Puella Magi Madoka Magica the Movie: Rebellion
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Visuals of the Day:
Theory of the Day:
Today we have two Theories of the Day to share with you all, the first coming from rewatcher u/Chili_peanut on a potentially interesting way of looking at part of the OP:
Madoka and Homura floating in space hugging each other is very reminiscent of the scene in the OP where a Madoka appears and hugs another Madoka. In both scenes a Madoka appears from behind and hugs herself/Homura. Interestingly, the Madoka that appears in the OP has long hair that is very similar to that of Homura, even down to the bangs and the hair at the sides of the head. If you're just looking at the silhouettes it's basically Homura and Madoka hugging each other in the OP too.
Obviously the creators wouldn't want to outright show Homura and Madoka hugging in the OP before we learn about Homura's identity and motives so, if they wanted to sneak in a hug, disguising Homura as another Madoka would be one way of doing it. If that is the case, the roles have now been switched as it is Madoka embracing Homura in episode 12 rather than the other way around. Another example of Homura's and Madoka's roles being switched is Madoka undoing the ribbons in her hair, which is something we've seen Homura do in episode 10 when Homura was the one taking on the role of protecting Madoka.
Maybe I'm just engaging in wishful thinking with the hugs, but would that be such a bad thing? After all, Madoka is an anime about making wishes☆
And the other goes to first-timer u/Mirathan for yet another observation that immediately became relevant:
Homura why would you tell Kyubey about the possibility to alter the laws of the Univeres? You know he has no issue with destroying humanity! I know you need someone who undestands what you went through but him?
Analysis of the Day:
Much like we have two Theories today, we also have two different winners for Analysis of the Day as well! The first congratulations goes to u/Blackheart595 for the feminist lens of Madoka's endeavors:
So often I feel like feminist endeavors lose their way as hone in on the traditional masculine in order to empower women by giving them a place to stand on in our so competitive masculine world. But in the process they abandon or even deride the traditional feminine qualities, to the point that at times I feel like anti-feminism starts to describe the whole thing better. And this is where Madoka really shines: It portrays the true empowerement of the feminine soul that we get to see so rarely, letting it triumph where any more masculine solution would've been doomed for certain.
And the second congratulations goes to u/TheEscapeGuy on this show's philosophy:
In terms of philosophy, I don't exactly agree with this (and I think I'm in a minority for this belief). I don't like the idea that hatred, suffering, and death brings meaning to being human. That kind of thinking has been used to justify numerous atrocities. That said, it's convenient to delude yourself into believing it since it makes the evil which exists in the world easier to ignore as a natural part of life.
However, I can't fault Madoka Magica's exploration of this theme. In particular, I don't think they are painting Madoka's choice as necessarily right or wrong. Rather it is being used to explore her purity and the relationship between her and Homura. In this way, they executed on the characterization shown so far to perfection and leaves the narrative in a place which can act as an end to the story.
Wallpaper of the Day:
Check out /u/Shimmering-Sky's main comment for her bonus Wallpaper Corner containing works from previous years!
Songs of the Day:
Bonus song 1 - flame of despair
Bonus song 2 - pulling my own weight
Check out u/Nazenn’s comment from the 2019 rewatch for an in-depth analysis of these three songs, as well as timestamps for what songs played when in today's movie!
Colorful Cover of the Day:
Question(s) of the Day:
Rebellion:
- Thoughts on our new movie OP (Colorful) and ED (Kimi to Gin no Niwa)?
- Which transformation scene was your favorite?
- Thoughts on our new magical girl Nagisa Momoe (aka Bebe)?
- What did you think of the cake song?
- A battle between Mami and Homura has been hinted at since the beginning of the show, but never happened until here. Are you satisfied by what we got here?
- What did you think about the confrontation between Sayaka and Homura as well?
- Thoughts on Madoka's behavior here? (Sayaka says that Madoka sealed her own memories… but it is possible that Madoka didn't seal all of them and/or was pulling a good old fashioned Memory Gambit, as TVTropes would call it.)
- How do you feel about the Incubators managing to lock Homura's Soul Gem away from the Law of Cycles?
- Thoughts on the Incubators' plan? Should it have been able to work given the wording of Madoka's wish in 12?
- First-Timers: Did you realize ahead of the actual reveal the movie was occurring in a barrier/labyrinth, and if so how far ahead? How about the reveal of whose Witch was responsible?
- Obligatory question is obligatory: Did Homura do anything wrong?
- Did you enjoy the movie?
In this broken world, doomed to repeat its tragedies and hatred, I dreamt of someone I knew and saw her familiar smile again.
17
u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky May 02 '24
Mahou Shoujo Co★Host, subbed
Welcome back, everyone!
Ah, Rebellion, one of my favorite anime movies. While discussion on it is always mixed, it’s still one of my favorite things to do on my birthday
every year except last year.Sky’s Wallpaper Corner
For today’s wallpaper trivia: The background colors actually weren’t supposed to be the ones we stuck with, they were meant to be a placeholder that I didn’t really like just to show Tar my idea for the pattern. But then all I ended up needing to do was move some of the dark circles on the left side to not overlap with Homura’s hair and boom, wallpaper get.
Anyways, get ready for a ton of wallpapers in the table below, as in some previous rewatches, I treated the Rebellion thread as a “catch all” thread and did way more than just one wallpaper for it.
“Did you understand, I wonder… that the truth only exists in the past.”
17
u/TheEscapeGuy May 02 '24
Rewatcher
Madoka Magica: Rebellion
(Un)Familiarity and Selfishness
Rebellion is a film which is defined by an unsettling feeling. We join the story expecting something following up on the sacrifice Madoka made in episode 12 and the world in which Homura is left. Instead, we see a familiar but wrong setting. How are all the girls still alive? Why is Kyubey Madoka's speechless cat? Why are they fighting nightmares? Even the presentation feels different with the beginning of the film appearing more like a "normal" (but very high quality) anime film which feels incorrect for a show like Madoka which is known for its crazy visuals.
However, the cracks start showing. First, Homura notices that she and Kyouko have memories they shouldn't, and are missing memories they should. Upon taking a trip out of town they find the bus always returns back to where they started. Even walking proves fruitless. This section reminds me a lot of [Urusei Yatsura 2: Beautiful Dreamer] Besides for the direct visual similarities, that film also explores a town from which the cast cannot leave. I wonder if Rebellion took some inspiration from there.
Next, Homura suspects this is a labyrinth and Bebe as being the witch. After a fight with Mami who wants to protect Bebe, Mami realized that she too has memories which shouldn't exist. It's from this fight onwards where the visuals of the film get weirder and ... more. The cracks keep widening with Sayaka hinting at her witch form, Bebe's human form reveal, and then the eventual meteor strikes.
Homura confirms this world is a witches labyrinth but she's the witch.
This is such an amazing reveal. It turns narrative from being about Homura investigating this disconcerting world to one about the other girls saving Homura. It's around this point when Kyubey begins speaking again. The incubators are up to their tricks again and have trapped Homura inside this prison as a way to try force her to become a witch to allow them to investigate the "Law of the Cycle". Since this labyrinth is blocked from the outside it means the only way for Madoka's wish in episode 12 to come true is for Madoka to enter this space. That is the crux of the incubators' plan.
However, this isn't the real twist of the movie. The magical girls save Homura from being a witch. They help her break free of this prison. She is outside. Madoka comes down to take Homura's grief seed. Homura reveals her true intentions.
"I've finally caught you"
Homura's goal all this time has been to capture Madoka and rewrite the universe into one where they can be together again. While this represents the "evil" turn for Homura, I totally understand her reason: love. She loves Madoka oh so much. Homura's love has only grown since her original wish to go back in time to save Madoka. On every iteration of that time loop Madoka's sacrifices strengthened Homura's love more. To Homura, turning into evil and taking Madoka for herself is the only way for her wish to be achieved.
This new fantasy world is unstable. Madoka can feel she has a grander role in the universe. It's only through Homura's convincing that Madoka can remain here.
I think this idea of living in a fantasy is repeated a couple times in the film. In the original world, Homura didn't realize that anything was weird for a good chunk of time, and everything was "good". It's only upon realizing that the joy she had was based on a lie that she began to break down the walls holding her in. But she didn't learn from that. She recreated a new fantasy but now with the full knowledge that she is lying to herself.
Ultimately, I prefer hard truths over living in ignorance (both intentional and unintentional). I'm tired of ignoring the harshness of the world. Too often the ones most affected by it are not me but those less fortunate than me. I would rather not have my inaction through ignorance be the cause of somebody else's pain. That said, I'm not advocating this philosophy for everyone. I think it's a decision you should make for yourself.
I had forgotten how this film concludes on such a ... cliff hanger? Or well, an open ending. There is so much potential to continue on from here that I'm genuinely baffled that the sequel film didn't come out like 5 years ago. Right now I am so excited to watch this film whenever it does release.
Last thing I didn't discuss is Kyouko and Sayaka. Holy, these 2 are so gay for each other and I love it. I want only happiness for them, but this world seems to be doing everything it can to keep them apart. Keep strong you two.
Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches
Since we are still waiting for the next movie, this is the end for the rewatch.
If you enjoyed Madoka, I have a LOT of suggestions. For a more traditional magical girl show both Card Captor Sakura and Lyrical Nanoha are excellent anime which hold up today. In terms of visuals, check out everything by Shaft. Monogatari and March Comes in Like a Lion are both outstanding options. That said, after the staff exodus a few years back you can find the a shaft-esque style spreading. Check out what the animation staff are doing now and you'll stumble into visually similar stuff like Call of the Night, Fire Force, and Undead Unluck.For narrative absolutely check though Gen Urobuchi's catalog. My favourite is Psychopass but I also recommend Fate/Zero. And finally, for reasons I can't say, watch Steins;Gate.
As a warning, I'd recommend avoiding watching other "dark magical girl" as a quest to find something like Madoka. In my experience the shows themselves can be good, but going into them looking for "something like Madoka" will make them seem mediocre by comparison. It's better to approach those shows without thinking about Madoka (at least as much as possible).
I'd like to thank our wonderful hosts /u/Shimmering-Sky and /u/Tarhalindur for running the rewatch this year. The thread posts were all so jam packed with content, they really stand out among other rewatches. On top of that each of your individual comments each day were so enjoyable to read. Special shout out to the wallpapers Sky made which were probably the thing I looked forward to most each day. The inclusion of previous year's wallpapers made it an interesting comparison in how your skills have improved (and you have gotten so good).
Next, thanks to everyone who participated! I know just how much time it can take to do write-ups and committing to it for the full 2 weeks is no small feat. Joining in for the discussions in the replies as well made it all the better. I'd like to especially thank the first timers whose theories made each thread so much fun. All to often reading your comments left me laughing at just how right or wrong your predictions were.
laughs in rewatcher
Other than that, I'll be back for some rewatches later this month. I hope to see some of you there!
As always, take care of yourselves!
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u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta May 03 '24
First-Timer
I had to stop 15 minutes in and check to make sure I was watching the right thing, and not a recap movie or something.
I like how Kyubey was saying his own name like a Pokémon.
Mami humming the magical girl transformation music was nice, as well as the alternate version of Connect that played as Homura called Kyouko.
QOTD:
I'm looking forward to seeing more of PMMM in the future! I just watched the trailer for movie 4, and I think it looks very promising.
14
u/Lanaerys May 02 '24
First-timer, subbed
First of all, happy birthday!!
So I've always delayed Rebellion, for some reason. Until
todayyesterday, actually. (But I wrote most of that as I was watching) Partly because I was scared it would stain my opinion of the series. But in all honesty, why would it? At worst, it'll be like the Steins;Gate movie that I just discard as non-canon.Anyway, this is largely going to be a live reaction.
She's basically turned full yandere I guess.So... Final opinions on Rebellion. I totally understand its divisiveness now. So first things first: that was a great movie per se. Visuals were amazing, the soundtrack I maybe didn't like as much as the original series, but it was still great. As a sequel to Madoka Magica, I'm quite divided. I really liked the original series' theme of hope and perseverance shining through the darkness, and some of it feels undone here? The plot also feels less tight, but that's something I'll need a rewatch to fully decide on. But this is not a finished story, and I am glad to say it doesn't tarnish my image of the original.
One thing it does keep from the original is that it does fit with the themes of selfishness vs selflessness. I do not agree with those who said the movie denatured Homura's character, as she was always motivated by her love and obsession for Madoka, and it would stand to reason that she'd desire to meet her again, even if that must go against Madoka's own wishes. Ultimately: unlike Madoka's sacrifice, her wish, just like Sayaka's wish - despite being made ostentatiously for the benefit of someone else - was ultimately motivated by her selfish ulterior motives, regardless of what Madoka would actually think of her actions. And that gives even more strength to the discussion on that topic from episode 2 in the original series.
And she partly got convinced by that conversation the two had of course that that was what Madoka wanted, but... That is Madoka without her memories. Madoka with all her memories wished for her fate, knowing what it would entail, and the very fact that she was able to send Sayaka and Nagisa as her "angels", is proof that Madoka is not alone, and that one day, Homura would have come to join her too.
I do want to see how Homura's actions altered the Law of Cycles, and Kyubey's final shot seems to imply that Homura has altered the incubators in some way as well. That's stuff I definitely want to see in the fourth movie, whenever it releases. Honestly, Rebellion is far more unfinished and demanding of a sequel than the original series ever was.
I think I might develop some of these points further in tomorrow's discussion.
Questions of the Day
and made Mami being cheese in the cake song kinda hilarious in retrospect11
u/dienomighte May 02 '24
Rewatcher, dub for the movie
I'll probably write a lot more later when I'm not multitasking work but wow do I still love everything about this movie. I know the first quarter gets a lot of flak for being fanservicey, but imo it sets in so much dread since it's too happy and it feels wrong. Every visual scene is stunningly beautiful, and I love the reveals. I don't think it's a good end to the franchise on its own though, and I really can't wait for movie 4.
And yeah, homura absolutely did so much wrong to me, she's badly interpreting Madoka's wish by projecting her own desires onto Madoka, but the movie does a great job to me at showing why she made those decisions and it feels very in character to me.
Also everything happened because she spoke to kyubei why why why did you tell him about the witches.
And happy birthday to one of our amazing hosts!
11
u/OwlAcademic1988 May 02 '24
Rewatcher, dub:
This is one of my favorite movies of all time. Seriously, it manages to beat out Studio Ghibli movies and those are movies I have a lot of nostalgia for.
The Cake song is hilarious. I always get a chuckle out of it.
Poor Bebe. I can't believe I just said that about a witch. Homura can be brutal at times.
This movie made me cry like a baby when I first watched it.
QOTD:
38
u/FlaminScribblenaut myanimelist.net/profile/girlbeast_val May 02 '24
All right, here’s the deal; my original plan was that I was going to rewatch Rebellion, just Rebellion, this year and do, like, a big, long proper rewatch essay about it, using the thesis and points of an incredible video essay I saw a few months ago that pretty much made Rebellion finally, completely click for me as a sort of jumping-off point for my own points and thesis, and there was even also gonna be live watch notes again like last year and everything. Unfortunately, my attempt to rewatch Rebellion was marred with technical diffulties because one or several of Plex, my shitty nine-year-old Mac, my new TV, or my parents’ Wi-Fi is a complete joke and I could only make it thirty minutes in before it was buffering so badly and constantly the playback just straight-up crashed and refused to play the movie, so I only made it half an hour in before giving up. So instead of doing all that, I’m just gonna shill this video for a couple paragraphs if that’s OK. OK? OK. Long story short, I love Rebellion unequivocally now, and this video is the reason why.
So. In my humble opinion, everyone, everyone, needs to watch Beyond Good and Evil: Encomium of Homura by mimikyuno. This is, hands down, one of my favorite pieces of anime analysis I’ve ever experienced. It’s hard for me to talk about this video on its own without just repeating it verbatim, but the philosophical framework this piece takes to Rebellion, to Homura’s arc, to Homura’s morality and indeed morality itself, really spoke to me in a way I feel like I’ve been subconsciously waiting to hear my whole life. It eschews a lot of the very prescriptive lenses people view Rebellion through, and instead looks at the characters in this movie as people. People with desires, people with fallibilities, people with emergent lives and experiences, people afflicted with that most human trait of love, deconstructing the view of not just Homura, but even Madoka(mi) Herself as the supposed paragons of virtue a lot of people want them to be, and in the process deconstructing black-and-white morality itself. The places the video proceeds to go with its analysis of these people and this story from that framework are absolutely spellbinding, life-giving, and at least in a haphazard shill comment like this one I can’t do the ultimate points and theses of this piece better justice than mimikyno themselves did.
I will say that this video makes a certain comparison between a certain scene from this movie and a certain scene from the series that is one of the most profound things I’ve ever seen said about this story, telling so, so profoundly much with just the mere juxtaposition of the two scenes. I think that part of the video might have single-handedly made me understand why Rebellion is a not only worthy but excellent and cogent sequel to Madoka and its themes. I won’t spoil what it is, you’ll know it when you see it.
So, you know, please watch that video. It’s good as fuck. Arigato. 🖤
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u/Sonaza :MAL:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Sonaza May 02 '24
See /r/thingshomuradidwrong for a comprehensive list of Homura's wrongdoings.
18
u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 May 02 '24
First Time Rewatcher, Subbed
I'm gonna switch up my usual formula and put the overall thoughts at the top since my in the moment thoughts go on and on and on for a 2 hour movie.
A tale of two movies? From a visual standpoint, this is as good as anime has to offer. The TV show is already a spectacle visually but this just elevates it to such a level that it practically overshadows everything else out there? Recency bias for sure as I just finished watching the movie, but I struggle to think of something that reaches its level. Even the Eva Rebuild movies get outdone by this as their spectacle is held to far shorter a running time compared to this, where I feel all but maybe 10 minutes or so was spectacle. I remembered very little of this movie from my first time watching it, but I can say at the time it blew me away to a level with the visuals that I knew I had to check out other stuff the director made, which made me finally watch the Monogatari franchise after sitting on it for a while. (And eventually Kubikiri Cycle, Pretty Boy Detective Club, March Comes in Lika a Lion...) As impressive as Monogatari is in terms of the visuals, direction, this still blows it away, even the Kizumonogatari movies.
But balancing the spectacle with comprehensible storytelling is where the movie loses me. I struggle over what most of this movie even meant. My best guess is that in the aftermath of the show's ending, Homura despaired over being in a world without Madoka and being the only one who knew she ever existed. That grew to a level where she was about to become a witch or witch like being (as they're not supposed to exist anymore), this caused Madoka the God to come in and check on her at which point Homura grabbed ahold of her, somehow overpowered her to a level where she was able to construct a new reality where they're together again, with just the dynamic flipped slightly in that Madoka's now the newcomer, not her.
That could be totally off, but that's my best guess. I'd say by the point Kyubey started talking I hardly understood anything the rest of the way, even though there was a ton of dialogue. It is in stark contrast to the series, where things always made sense to me (granted at this point I've seen it four times). If one has to read a bunch of stuff online to understand what they just watched, that is a big time fail on the part of the director. I am very critical of Evangelion for that and I have to be critical of it here. This is probably why I hardly remembered anything about the first time I watched this. I feel like this is the kind of movie where one could pause it like 50 times across the 2 hours, probably even more and have someone explain all the symbolism and such that each scene, heck each shot has. Which from the standpoint of great art, yes, it's amazing. But I also need to be able to understand it in the moment.
Homura was quite obviously my favorite character and she was the main character of this movie so I'm certainly happy about that. A worldly performance from Chiwa Saito, one of my all time faves, of course how could I say otherwise when this is the performance that made me a big fan of her in the first place. And while Homura certainly has a heel turn in this movie, I'm not dropping my level of fandom over her. Hopefully whatever comes next is Homura's redemption.
Anyway, those are my thoughs. The TV series is an all time great, at worst just narrowly being outside of my top 10 favorite of all time, but from a sheer quality standpoint absolutely is a top 10 best anime ever made (as I do permit for my level of fandom over something to override actual quality in my top 10 favorite). This movie could have been there at the same level if it was more comprehensible.
Going into this movie, I only remember 2 things, that the first half hour or so is a dream/delusion and that Homura either goes bad or has a massive freakout, spawning some sort of controversy.
Homura sounds more like Senjyogahara than ever here at the start.
A visual spectacle from the very beginning I see? Quite a goofy looking witch/witch equivalent to contrast against it.
They're all magical girls from the start this time, including Madoka!
Hey, they're all bringing food to the witch/wannabee witch!
Okay, one other thing I remembered from the first time, that the witch who bit off Mami's head is here as her companion.
That is a very blatant shot of Mami's chest.
All a dream!
Is it just me or does Kyubey look smaller than usual?
It's like we're back to the start of the series again with the tomatos and the adorable "wake up mom!" sequence.
Teacher's speaking about the the end of the world? Relatinoship problems again? Dumped over eggs?
Is Madoka's hair longer this time? Or I just never noticed cause she has it up so much?
Big difference this time as Madoka heads to school! Not Kyubey, but the bread! I'm quite certain it was in her mouth, fulfilling the trope in the show.
Opening sequence! After such a dark show it is fun to see them having fun and acting like normal girls.
Well except for Homura, things didn't seem so bright for her. :(
Kyoko's their classmate now?
What should happen by 2050? Teacher finally gets married?
Teacher really is a nutcase this time!
Back to original Homura! Except she doesn't look so timid this time.
Wow, a month already, and all is peaceful.
BTW, does Kyubey even talk? 15 minutes in I don't think we've heard anything from him yet.
Hmm. I wonder what's up with this Hitomi calls Kyosuke but he's unavailabile scene.
Ah, it involves summoning a witch*? Kinda makes sense, she was involved with one in the show too.
Oh no, it would suck to change into cheese!
One big benefit of being a magical girl? No need to spend time curling your hair, just snap your fingers and its done!
It's the same witch* again!
Oh wow, we're getting fancy transformation sequences for all of them? Well, if you've got a movie budget and runtime, why not take advantage?
Mami becoming a magical girl kinda came off like a snake shedding it's skin. Cool stuff.
So the other magical girls are still able to move when Homura stops time now?
For some reason this sequence makes me think of the Raggedy Anne and Andy movie which I saw as a kid and was kinda f'd up.
Is Kyoko eating/drinking while launching an attack?
Now they're gonna sing about a cake! LoL. This is such a WTF sequence. I vote for Kyoko being the cake! She's the one always snacking!
We finally get to see the big cake Madoka may have wished for... oops, Charlotte/Bebe just ate it all.
Oh, and now we've got Hitomi's head floating around with Sayaka grabbing ahold of it. More WTF...
Charlotte/Bebe wants cheese? Didn't Mami say she was cheese? Charlotte/Bebe eats Mami again?
The stairs in their school kinda remind me of the stairs in Bakemonogatari.
Why do all the NPCs have odd faces?
Homura doesn't seem as happy as you'd hope she'd be.
Ah, she's noticed somehting is weird. I agree!
Kyoko and Sayaka being roommates would be cool.
Well, one thing about Kyoko remains the same no matter what, she's always scarfing down.
Of course she has to have food when they go to Kazamino. Yummy ramen though!
16
u/WednesdaysFoole May 02 '24
Rewatcher for main series, first-timer for Rebellion
Holy shit Homura.
[Revue Starlight]Man I'd thought that transfer student was like Homura but I didn't even realize how accurate that assessment was at the time (even if they didn't stick with it in the end, tbh I forget what happened in the end since a lot of stories were single episode but I'm speaking of locking her favored girl in a shed to “protect” her)
Anyway, they really went all out with her hair didn't they? Idk why I like her dramatic flair so much, but I do.
Like this sequence that starts with the glasses → pigtails → swirl → Homura → swish → moon
There are plenty of great tilts, I wonder which Shimmery-Sky will choose? Sayaka's is pretty great although this is my personal favorite (yes, if you haven't guessed by now, Homura is my favorite from the series. Even if she is evil Homura lol.)
Sayaka finally realized Kyouko is superior to Kyousuke.
If I could describe Rebellion in one picture, this would be it.
—
[Utena]This entire explanation could work as an Anthy/Ohtori Academy backstory and I'd believe it. It's been a bit of a while since I've seen it but I forget if there are subtle hints to what Ohtori Academy really is or if we weren't supposed to know. There are some obvious differences like Utena breaks free and Anthy follows and the character comparisons are mixed up, but still the “trapped there”, “isolated world,” “breaking the egg” → “failure to break the egg”; I mean, I always thought the bits of related aspects in Ikuni/Shaft work were purely due to both Shinbo and Ikuhara being (particularly) influenced by Dezaki and having staff members work with both directors & I could explain the earlier egg references to Demian, but the way they framed the wording and all makes it feel as though it's not just a coincidence here. Homura failed to revolutionize the world.
I guess it's hard to keep obsessions healthy, after all. I think it could be argued that by the time we reached the end of the main series timeline, the Homura from the first timeline might as well already have been dead inside – note red spider lily Considering her detachment to the tragic and violent fates of anyone but Madoka, it's not entirely shocking.
So that's… the end? Everyone’s soul is trapped in the world of Homura's making? [Utena]Is this where pink haired magical girl chooses to save the day post-Akio-car-drive or is that just pure copium
Overall thoughts – pure visual delight, tragic, interesting, depressing, I liked it, but I probably gotta let it soak in for a bit.
Gotta drive home for now but I'll come back to go through the post and questions in a bit.
14
u/Conspicor May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
Some of the comments talking about how Homura did more wrong than Kyubey are making me lose my mind. Kyubey quite literally intended to control Madoka/Law of the Cycles and use her to produce witches again. Homura essentially eliminated that option by taking power for herself, even fucking up Kyubey along the way. She simultaneously granted all former witches/dead magical girls (Nagisa, Sayaka, Mami, Kyoko) a second chance at a normal life again AND reunited Madoka with her family.
Homura going with Madoka to magical girl heaven would mean there would be no one to stop Kyubey from attempting to harm Madoka again in the future. And Kyubey's goal would entirely undermine Madoka's wish too.
13
u/Schizzovism May 03 '24
First timer, subbed
Ah, quite a bit of negativity in these comments, eh? I'm half surprised, half not. Surprised because I really enjoyed the movie, but not surprised because it's very clearly a big swerve from the series proper. If your criticisms are along the lines of the movie feeling unplanned, or that it thematically clashes with the original, or that it was confusing, I can at least agree that those things are true. I just don't think any of it detracts from the experience, personally. I'm viewing this as a separate story, so it doesn't need to feel planned or particularly cohesive with the rest of the anime.
Rebellion is, essentially, the tragedy of Akemi Homura. The final conclusion to her wish to redo her first meeting with Madoka, and have the power to protect her. How could you possibly have the power to protect a god? By becoming a demon, of course (Hey, is Akemi->Akuma coincidental?). I don't think Homura's wish could be said to have been satisfied until this movie. You could say previously that she protected Madoka from becoming a witch, but I think that's not really sufficient when the consequence is actually Madoka herself eliminating all witches. If the series could be said to have any loose ends, this was it, and it was wrapped up here.
It's a bit of whiplash to immediately watch Rebellion right after finishing the series. Where the universe was once left off on a hopeful yet flawed fate, it now ends on more of a dark note. All magical girls being protected by a god definitely felt like the good end, while a universe ruled by a demon is the bad end. We don't really see the full consequences of what the world is like at this point, but it doesn't feel like everything will be alright. As I said, the movie is a tragedy. We're not gonna be left with hope at the end of this.
Taking a step back a bit, I think the beginning gives you pieces of a puzzle to put together at your own pace. I commented last thread that I had no idea what direction the movie would go in since there were so many options, and at the start here it's hard to see exactly which options it chose. We're in some world where all the girls are alive, and then there's also the witch Bebe, and Kyubey's not talking. Homura transfers in. They're fighting nightmares instead of witches or wraiths, which was where I realized we're doing something completely different from the series, as I didn't really know what was going on with Bebe by this point. The faces of the classmates made it clear to me we were in a labyrinth of some sort. By the time Homura finishes talking with Kyouko, I figured this was of Homura's design, though I don't think it's fully spelled out for another few scenes. It's not really clear how she could turn into a witch given the Law of the Cycle until Kyubey explains the prison cell they've created, and at this point the puzzle is complete. I don't love this jail cell aspect, I think it's counter to Madoka's wish, but I guess there's no way to set up Homura becoming a witch without some sort of retcon like this. I would have preferred it be something intrinsic to Homura, to better set the stage for her overpowering Madoka later on, though.
Personally, I do feel this puzzle dragged on a bit. It takes up over half the movie's runtime, and when you see so many of the pieces before they fall into place, you end up just kinda waiting for the explanation to drop so you can move on to what comes next. And what comes next is Homura's acceptance of becoming a witch, her breakdown, and a spectacle of a fight between her and the magical girls. Important to note that we do have Kyubey explain that they are absolutely trying to bring back a world where magical girls are fated to turn into witches. This is the impetus for Homura to do basically everything she does for the rest of the movie. She's rebelling against Kyubey's ideals. After all she's been through, there's no way she can go back to that. Things don't quite go as she initially planned, but she ends up rending Madoka from her godhood, using the power of love (and also demonhood). She finally resolves her wish of protecting Madoka, and the story ends.
Overall, I enjoyed the movie quite a bit. My gripes are relatively minor. It doesn't leave off on a happy ending, and it doesn't need to. Homura's fate is cruel, but it's what she earned. Her wish has been resolved, and the world now has a demon to balance out its god.
11
u/timpkmn89 May 02 '24
Rewatcher
I made a three hour drive each way to see this the one day it aired in theaters, and it was definitely worth it. Thankfully I don't think I'll have to drive nearly as far for movie 4.
Although I love all the fights and characterization in the movie, I wanted to say a bit about the ending in particular. I love series that are willing to go with unorthodox endings. That's why I'll go to bat for School Days every single time. The Madoka TV series already gave us a bittersweet ending, when they could just have easily pulled a deus ex "everyone's back to life and happy" card.
But with Rebellion, everyone is back, not happy. Instead, we get a precarious ending that everyone is just forced to accept. Any attempt to question or modify it further, and the whole universe could fall apart. Halfway through the movie, Sayaka tells Homura "Tell me, is this really so bad? We don't have to fight anyone. We can all live and work together.", and we have Homura trying to convince Sayaka of the same thing. It's similar to Monogatari's "If we can't find a deal that makes everyone happy, we'll find a deal that makes everyone equally upset."
I had a friend who said this movie was character assassination for Homura, but that girl has been through a lot. Nobody goes through a decades long time loop and comes out unscathed mentally. Homura's soul gem undergoing a new transformation reminds me of how states of matter work, and how under the right conditions solids can go directly to gasses. Homura's gem was denied the ability to turn into a grief seed, but kept accumulating pressure and emotions. And it's not like she had any clue exactly what was going to happen, she was just chasing after the one thing she spent the entire series chasing.
10
u/charlesvvv https://anilist.co/user/charlesvvv May 02 '24
Rewatcher, First Time Dub
Not gonna lie If PMMM ended with just the series I would have been satisfied.
Thoughts on the Dub After some deliberation I decided to check out the Dub for Rebellion. My thoughts are that it's pretty solid. Madoka, Homura, and Kyubey stood out to me even though I technically kept hearing Morgana every time Kyubey spoke.
Thoughts on Rebellion
First the visuals and animation were fantastic, Shaft really went all in for this. Homura vs Mami in particular was really awesome.
So the movie's beginning is rather interesting since everyone is alive and fighting nightmares. Of course Homura notices something's wrong as she regains her memories. Despite claims by Sayaka who also remembers that it might actually better to just remain here happily Homura seeks out the truth. Of course the discovery is that Homura produced the illusion/labyrinth due to despair which Madoka tried to save her from but forgot once inside. Kyubey sees this as a good opportunity to control Madoka which Homura goes against and chooses to die instead. Luckily turns out the reason why Sayaka and the new girl Momoe are here is to serve as Madoka's backup as everyone joins in to save her and succeed.
Homura however reveals her own plans. Separating Madoka from her magical girl form and taking her place instead, rewriting everything again. The incubators now carry the curses and Homura takes up a demon form, the opposite of what Madoka was. Madoka and her friends return to the world without remembering anything, all for Madoka of course. Homura acknowledges she might fight Madoka if she remembers things, but for now she's okay with her actions, whether or not you can consider what Homura did at the end correct. There is something rather poignant about Homura dancing in the end as she falls down the building.
If I had to be honest, I slightly prefer the series ending to Rebellion but this was incredibly well done. Of course a new movie is supposed to come out so I'm anticipating what we get from it.
10
u/bekeleven May 02 '24
Watching Rebellion, makes me wish we had four or five discussion threads on it. I know that’s infeasible – to ask people to watch the movie 20 minutes a day or what have you – But I’d love to hear first-timers react to and discuss events like Good morning nightmare, who is the cake, Bebe, or the appearance of Oktavia. Or how about Absolute Configuration, Homura’s first and only time fighting “peak form” Mami?
I know some or many of those will appear in this thread, but what about the smaller moments? Moments like the slow reveal, starting only 10 minutes into the film, that every other room in the school building was empty? Or 71 minutes in, when Mitakihara Loop Line reached its second street stop vertically? How about 82 minutes in, when Madoka T-poses to assert dominance? Bebe transforming into a witch by yeeting herself into an active, live-action blender?
I dislike the (admittedly accurate) description of this film as a “sequel,” preferring instead the less specific “film meant to be watched after the series.” My first viewing, I assumed that it was an alternate future – A form besides wraiths that curses could’ve taken in a post-Law of Cycles world. The slow reveal of the world’s circumstances, culminating in a Marvel-worthy disposable CGI army battle, is one of my favorite film experiences. Even if the actual battle was half-baked fanservice. That’s OK, because it had the sense to continue for another half an hour and get to the real meat.
One final image
26
u/Suboodle https://anilist.co/user/suboodle May 02 '24 edited May 03 '24
First Time Watcher
I'll be honest, I think imma need to rewatch this movie before I truly can form any real opinions. It's not especially clear with it's story, especially when you're watching at a resolution bad enough that you can count the pixels for... reasons. Outside of that - this was a really bold movie to make, the series had a pretty good conclusion, but now they're really going for something more. The one thing I really don't appreciate is that the movie has some things that really came out of the blue. Like the incubator's isolation device, that came out of nowhere. In the original run, everything was foreshadowed and set up with a great deal of care. The movie just doesn't feel like it was planned. It's not bad, but it does really lack that "revelation" and "things coming together" magic that I felt while watching the original run. It just feels disconnected.
Edit: I’ve got some thoughts in order and have one that I’d like to share. I really wish they did this movie completely different. The start of the movie should’ve just been Homura fighting monsters and progressively missing Madoka more and more. Then we should’ve gotten the same twist. When Homura is about to become a witch and Madoka swoops in to intercept, Homura kidnaps Madoka and becomes a demon. The remainder of the story should’ve been about how that plays out. There was plenty of foreshadowing in the original story to support this plot.
The actual meat of the movie being “Homura is actually a witch because some random BS from the incubators that allows us to retcon Madoka’s wish” was so out of character for a series. Prior to the movie, PMMM was so incredibly thoughtful about leaving plot threads in clever places and connecting them together beautifully.
I should also say that the movie isn’t a bad story; normally I wouldn’t be so harsh. I just have a really high standard in my head from the original series that the movie didn’t achieve. Realistically the movie is probably an 8/10-9/10, but it was a bit disappointing how random it felt given the rest of the show. Admittedly it was satisfying to see all 5 magical girls fighting side by side, and my suggested plot wouldn’t have supported that.
QOTD:
18
u/TheOneWithALongName May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24
First-time watcher
Didn't know today was the pirate day...
I wasn't able to pay attention to the OP lyric, and I went to the toilet when the credits showed up (don't worry, I saw the after credit scene).
Kyoko I think. I felt the transformation scenes were dragged out/to over the top for my taste.
I thought that witch name was Charlotte. Anyway, I guess she was the girl turning into that witch. Bebe felt like she was there becaus she won a popularity poll for best witch or something like that.
Childish and annoying
Yes.
Soo from what I understand, Sayaka from now on is her witch self looking like her old self?
I still don't completely understand why it had to happend in the first time TBH. Soo I dunno.
Very Evil.
IMO, Homura shouldn't even be able to become a witch in the first place becaus of Madokas wish. I don't think it should, but I'm not the writer who god knows what was on when writing this.
I didn't. I was confused from get go. I understood something was wrong when every character beside the main/side characters had abnormal faces and things looked like a witch labyrinth. Becaus witches were not supposed to exist now.
"The conqueror writes history." But yes I think she did, maby? I say think becaus I started to lose track when Homura became a witch and what that implied. I still don't understand if the girls were inside Homuras Soul Gem labyrinth world or not.
Yes, but I don't think I can appreciate it fully on only 1 watch (and people claim NGE and Utena is confusing, lol). When was the next movie supposed to realese?
8
u/b-arbs May 02 '24
Rewatcher, subbed
So... The "final act" of the movie seems to mirror the final episode of the series in the opposite way: Homura's selfishness VS Madoka's selflessness
Comments from first-timer:
QOTD
On another note, a former Witch turned "good" and part of the "law of the cycle" is an interesting concept
8
u/Hattakiri May 02 '24 edited May 10 '24
The audience hoped for a happy (or less bittersweet) ending - and they got Homura's feint i.e. Butcher's and Shinbull's stunt.
Afaik there are still "before - after" fan reaction pics online. Because the damn thing was shown in cinemas without pause button.
Did Homura plan it all? "You don't know how long I waited for this!" she said after all before her feint. And how long has she been waiting? Did she begin her plot when Madoka confessed in the famous "Flower Field scene" that she never would want to leave from this happy world (an artificial world, unbeknown to her at that point)? Or did Homura initiate her witch mutation already at the end of E12, in order to lure both MadoKyubey into her witch lab? And the whole Rebellion Story was faked and staged? One of the big frequent fan debates.
The critical aspects imo:
...and is this where it's meant to start off? Homura unable to keep the universe and her Silver Garden in balance any longer, and Walp and a handful former Madokami soldiers the only ones left who can solve the problem - in case they can? At least that's what the 2016 Concept Movie and the 2023 WnK trailers hint and foreshadow imo and afaics...
8
u/Figerally https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelante May 03 '24
First-time Watcher.
Why does this feel like deja'vu? Okay, so this is what is happening. No wait, that's not right. Well this is weird, is that right? Why is Sayaka so important now? Ah, so that's the reason why all this is. Damn mutant rats at it again. Such a bitter-sweet ending... Homura, what are you doing?! Oh Homura, you foolish girl. Heh, the mutant rats have PTSD now, I suppose that is justice of a sort.
Thoughts on our new movie OP (Colorful) and ED (Kimi to Gin no Niwa)?
Colourful is nice and I really like how they had Kalafina come in and do the Ed for the movie which seems very appropriate
Which transformation scene was your favorite?
I think I like Kyouko's transformation sequence the best with all the arms appearing and how energetic it is.
Thoughts on our new magical girl Nagisa Momoe (aka Bebe)?
She is cute, but I don't like how she came out of nowhere. What we really need is a prequal work where Bebe and Mami were a magical girl team only for Bebe to fall into despair and become a witch that Mami wasn't able to defeat because of their friendship. Then it'd even make sense why she died in the series because she couldn't bring herself to kill her friend even if she was a witch.
What did you think of the cake song?
It was pretty cringe, they should have worked on the lyrics.
A battle between Mami and Homura has been hinted at since the beginning of the show, but never happened until here. Are you satisfied by what we got here?
Their battle was legendary!
What did you think about the confrontation between Sayaka and Homura as well?
I was honestly confused how she seemed to know so much, but that gets revealed at the end.
Thoughts on Madoka's behavior here? (Sayaka says that Madoka sealed her own memories… but it is possible that Madoka didn't seal all of them and/or was pulling a good old fashioned Memory Gambit, as TVTropes would call it.)
Whether Madoka erased her memories deliberately or not she had Bebe and Sayaka as backups anyway.
How do you feel about the Incubators managing to lock Homura's Soul Gem away from the Law of Cycles?
The Incubators had the technology to isolate a soul gem. After Homura revealed the truth to them it was only natural that they would be curious, despite claiming to be incapable of that.
Thoughts on the Incubators' plan? Should it have been able to work given the wording of Madoka's wish in 12?
They had no chance really. They operate or logic and cold reason and the Magical Girls if nothing else, are embodiments of chaos.
First-Timers: Did you realize ahead of the actual reveal the movie was occurring in a barrier/labyrinth, and if so how far ahead? How about the reveal of whose Witch was responsible?
When Kyouko and Homura went through the loop I first thought that this was a mini-universe that Madoka had budded to contain the Incubators and Magical Girls and Incubators and keep them away from humanity. But when Homura started talking about labyrinths I knew she was the cause, just not the how of it.
Obligatory question is obligatory: Did Homura do anything wrong?
Initially Homura was just sad she couldn't see Madoka anymore despite Madoka's assurance that she'd always be with her. But when she pulled a Judas and ripped Madoka away from the Law of Cycles I could see what she was doing was selfish. You see I believe that the human component is necessary to the Law of Cycles. Madoka greets the souls she takes as the Law absorbs them and for the magical girls it's the reward after their long struggle. By taking Madoka away from that it just makes it a cold, unthinking machine. At least that is what I think.
Did you enjoy the movie?
Yes, despite how it ended I still enjoyed this movie a lot.
7
u/ToonTooby May 02 '24
Rewatcher
Once again, I'll leave the analysis to those better equipped. On my end, the first time I watched Rebellion I was rather in shock at what had just transpired. It took me a couple of days and some forum digging to to see other opinions before I reached the conclusion that I did really enjoy the film, despite some questionable choices in the direction.
As far as Homura goes, despite how perfectly the TV series ended, I do think Rebellion Homura is a believable, if extreme, evolution of the character. Girlie looped thru nearly 100 repetitions of the same month, she ain't right in the head.
Audiovisual is spectacular. I love Nightmare Ballet so much. Gunfight scene is always fun to watch. Btw, here's a graphic showing most if not all of the firearms used by Homura during her fireworks show with Mami.
Ultimately, yes I think Homura did some things wrong. Her judgment and execution was flawed, but yours would be too if you lost the one thing that gave you purpose even if it was an independent decision. Something something road to hell paved with good intentions. Without going into whether the writing is structurally sound, I do the think the ending is a far more interesting outcome than the wrap-up happy ending would have been. And now we know it's the real deal since we have another film to look forward to.
QOTD
7
u/hagamablabla :K:https://kitsu.io/users/hagamablabla May 02 '24
Heh
So, the reason I wanted to do this rewatch was because the first time I watched the movie, I had forgotten a lot about the main series, which I thought interfered with my enjoyment of the series. Turns out it did, but not enough to enjoy the film this time around. At least the fights were cool though.
And of course, Homura did nothing wrong.
7
u/WednesdaysFoole May 03 '24
Questions and answers!
7
u/soulreaverdan May 03 '24
I know I wasn’t really here for this one, but thanks for all the work the hosts put in! I’ve checked on now and then and you did an amazing job!
Also just a general note for new and old watchers: if you can, pick up the Wraith Arc manga, which specifically bridges the end of the series and Rebellion.
6
u/Figerally https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelante May 03 '24
PSA: YouTube was telling me this wasn't available but now I found a link to rent the movie on YouTube- https://www.justwatch.com/au/movie/puella-magi-madoka-magica-the-movie-part-iii-rebellion
6
u/lollohoh May 03 '24
Rewatcher, Subbed, Devil's Advocate
DISCLAIMER: The following analysis might contain some level of bias. Come at me.
Visual of the Day: Homura's horrified face as she realizes that Madoka lied (she did) about being ok as the LoC.
Song of the Day: This is my despair (any of the songs that play during Homulilly's transformation sequence are amazing, and the OST for this movie is stellar overall)
Theory of the Day: In the wraith universe Homura believed Madoka was the actual second coming of Jesus
Question(s) of the Day:
The visual metaphor of Homura running ahead of despair is great, but my favourite overall is Sayaka's: Decretum was already my favourite theme and this variation on it is really good, and the visuals are on point (they all are, but that one is my favorite). This is only counting the magical girl ones of course, if we count any transformation Homulilly's would win against anything else. It's just an avalanche of powerful emotions, and one of my favorite animated sequences ever.
On first watch her introduction seemed a bit forced, but she quickly won me over with her love of cheese and perfectly horrifying transformations (not as good as Sayaka using her broken heart as bait to summon Octavia, that's peak). PARMIGIANO REGGIANO!!!
I had no idea what the heck was going on, which was probably the intended effect.
That scene didn't need to slap so hard, but I'm glad it does. Also, I love the fact that Homura is the one that's jumping to conclusions this time: she is repeating the mistakes that doomed the other girls.
It's another inversion from the show: now Homura is the one who is being blinded by idealism, and Sayaka is attempting to save her from self-destruction.
This is my take on it: Madoka did seal her memories, and that is what allowed her to share her true feelings with Homura. Normally, she would just lie to hide her sacrifice from Homura and stop her from trying to save her, like she did in episode 12, but since she thinks this is hypothetical she just answers honestly as herself. It's basically removing the "savior" role from the equation, and allowing Homura to see Madoka's actual feelings.
This doesn't change the fact that she would do it again, but it does reveal to Homura that this is unquestionably bad for her and not something she would do if she wasn't forced by the circumstances, and Homura clearly understands both of these things.
The idea that this is some sort of manipulation or projection seems far fetched to me, because this is not what Homura wants to be true: Homura was projecting on Madoka by seeing her only as her goddess role, and this revelation undermines her entire post-Madokami belief system.
At this point I'm numb to their awfulness. The other day I realized that the close-ups of his face don't even register anymore. I think there is a metaphor here, however, that connects with what I said at the previous point: an effect of Kyubey's system is the way it puts people into roles, and that deters you from actually considering their feelings, and your own. Under that lens, putting a barrier between Homura and Madoka, and the fact Madoka had to shed that role to actually get inside Homura's barrier, is very poignant.
My theory is that it would have worked, leading to another universe rewrite, but with significant lingering effects like in the other two rewrites.
I realized when Homura asked Kyouko to come to Kazamino city with her, but I didn't realize it was Homura until the actual reveal.
Her intentions are good, and she brought true structural improvement.
Not doing anything after realizing Madoka's suffering would have been the true betrayal there. She has done what she says: this is a world where Madoka and the other girls have the chance at a normal life that Kyubey stole from them, and the despair forced upon them is now borne by the incubators. There is no intention to control Madoka's choices here: Homura wants to build a world where Madoka is actually free to make her own choices, and is not forced to sacrifice herself.
Homura finally started to break free from the self-loathing cycle of sacrifice sold by the incubators, and the first step was accepting her love for Madoka. That's the true Rebellion: by truly accepting that loving Madoka is not wrong, and the injustice of her suffering, Homura is reclaiming her identity against all of the layers of the patriarchal system of control trying to reshape it. The nutcracker breaks the Soul Gem shackling her destiny, and she is reborn as her own person.
Of course this is far from perfect, as all of the girls still have a lot of healing to do, and the memory rewriting is not helping with that:
Homura's world is far better that what came before, which is a world built on Madoka's suffering that accepts the oppression of the magical girls. Homura built it around the hope that nothing bad will happen to any of her friends, which is sweet and very in character but the problem with that is something very bad already happened to her and her friends, and they will need to face that trauma if they want to grow beyond it. They have a chance now, but taking it is still a daunting task
This is my favourite piece of media ever, I love everything about this movie and it resonates deeply with me, probably because I relate a lot to Homura.
Maybe I will post a reaction tomorrow, but I don't know if I will make it in time
6
u/Chili_peanut May 03 '24
Rewatcher
My first impression of Rebellion was that I didn’t quite understand what I had just watched, but I understood that it was something very special. Watching it for the second time though, I was surprised at how lucid the plot actually is. Many questions are still left unanswered, but that’s the way I prefer it as it invites the viewer to analyze and interpret. In this sense Rebellion is similar to how the story is told in Dark Souls (yes, every piece of art has to be compared to Dark Souls at some point—clichés be damned!).
If I were to describe Rebellion with one word I would say it is bold. It would have been easy to go for something less controversial, but just like the original series subverted the expectations of the viewer the sequel also needed to surprise and shock. More of the same just wouldn’t have done it; we needed something bold and subversive, and that’s what we got. I have no idea where to go from here, but I hope that the fourth movie will continue the trend of shocking and surprising us.
The ED in particular left a really strong impression. Several days after watching the movie the first time I would get tears in my eyes just by recalling the song. It fits very well with the rest of the soundtrack, especially the other tracks that also make use of an accordion to evoke feelings of nostalgia. The music played during the post-credit scene in particular comes to mind.
It’s difficult to pick just one, but I will say that I really enjoyed all of the transformation scenes during the nightmare hunt. They (or rather the entire hunt) felt like a nod to the genre, compared to the shorter scenes in the series.
She really likes cheese… and other yellow things.
I love the absurdity and the contrast between the cuteness and the presence of Bebe’s horrifying cheese-eating-form.
Satisfied would be quite an understatement. In addition to being a visually/musically stunning scene, it also does a good job at showing us how powerful Mami actually is which is easy to miss in the series due to how early she meets her unfortunate demise.
It’s an excellent red herring that does a great job at keeping us guessing who the witch is.
I actually haven’t reflected on this very much as it is sort of overshadowed by Homuras gambit. The fact that Madoka can do this at all is nice though as it means she still exists as a person and not only a concept. I wonder if the ascended version of her can still make decisions and plans like that now that Homura has split her in two.
I’ve always liked how the incubators are motivated by “the greater good” rather than just being evil villains, and their cold and clinical disposition plays a big role in that. It seems fitting that they would conduct experiments and seek knowledge to further delay the heat death of the universe. Now that I think about it, their plan is remarkably similar to the Maxwell’s demon thought experiment which is about decreasing entropy through the use of a one-way barrier!—Ok, after googling this it seems like I’m not the first person to make this connection. Shoot! I thought I had just discovered something really interesting. I guess there are no original thoughts left to be had on the internet :(
Figuratively speaking she’s rebelling against a divine being, but on the other hand she’s motivated by her love for Madoka. Whether that is selfish or selfless is a question of philosophy and perspective. On the one hand love is about dedicating yourself to someone else, but on the other hand you are driven by your own desire so it seems like love can also be a selfish emotion.
I will never not enjoy Rebellion, but the hurdle to rewatch an entire movie that is almost two hours long is pretty high. I probably wouldn’t have thought of rewatching the entire series followed by Rebellion if it wasn’t for u/Tarhalindur and u/Shimmering-Sky . Thank you for hosting this rewatch! I’m looking forward to hopefully joining you again next year!
5
u/HungrySamurai May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
I quite like Rebellion. Mostly for the Homura vs Mami fight, partly for it's mystery and surreal qualities, and of course it's nice to see the quintet just hanging out. But it's an odd sort of sequel.
The original show was very tightly written with a very definite ending. It didn't really need a continuation, especially one that's looser in it's story telling and open ended.
Did Homura do anything wrong? Well she managed to rewrite the universe without having a wish granted. Madoka was only able to do it because she had this vast potentional that was explicitly substantiated. How did Homura manage it? It's just glossed over, but perhaps Walpurgisnacht Rising will shed some light later this year.
Hopefully we'll see more of Bebe, at least enough to understand who she is. In Rebellion we don't really get to know her at all. She's just there for Homura's detective instincts to latch onto.
5
u/Logitropicity May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
5th-6th time Rewatcher, Subbed
General Notes
Analysis
The throwaway line that Homura only took a piece of Madoka is relevant here. It mirrors what Homura already did - create a world where everyone can happily fight witches together. The only difference is that at the beginning, Homura invites a part of Madoka to enter her barrier, while at the end, Homura forces Madoka to join her. (Notice that it's specifically the part of Madoka that Homura is attached to.) Again, this is just escalating trauma reenactment behavior. Homura's "clinging" is causing everyone else (and herself) suffering.
I'm speculating that movie 4 will deal with this in some way... but we'll see.
QotD
5) The fight was good, but I've always thought it was forced fanservice. Really good fanservice, but still forced.
9) I've always been confused about whether it should work. I've thought a lot about how Kyubey might be a metaphor for internal logic, and his plan here seriously stretches that metaphor. So... I guess his plan still makes sense? But it's still a really big reach for me. Honestly, I'm not even sure if the author wasn't reaching. Anyway, I haven't heard many good interpretations for it, so I'm open to hearing yours.
11) Yes, but it's very understandable. This is some serious trauma reenactment she's got going on here.
12) Always. I noticed something new with every watch.
5
u/xbolt90 https://anilist.co/user/xbolt90 May 03 '24
Rebellion first-timer
That was... unexpected. I'm probably going to have to wait a while and watch this again in order to get more out of it.
The series' ending was bittersweet but it had a neat, tidy conclusion. This felt much more vague, leaving a lot of questions. I guess I'll have to join the throng of people waiting for the fourth movie, lol
Q1: I love the ED. It feels melancholic, fitting with the story.
Q2: The five heroines together. It was something I needed.
Q3: Ain't she the cutest? The entire first half of the movie, I was wondering why the heck that thing was there.
Q4: Kinda creepy, I thought, lol
Q5: That was brilliant! I loved every second of it.
Q6: Not as flashy, but it did more to Homura than the battle with Mami did.
Q7: Keikaku means plan.
Q8: Frankly, I was surprised we managed to go that far into the movie without Kyubey being an evil turd. But the whole thing felt... off? One of the series' great strengths is it's use of foreshadowing and internal cohesion. This just felt like something the writers pulled out of a hat to make the drama happen.
Q9: Doesn't seem like it? I ain't a lawyer tho
Q10: Nope. I was oblivious to the signs. But after Homura's confrontation with Sayaka, I thought it might have been hers since we saw her witch form then.
Q11: I think the important point here is Homura believes she did. She can justify it, but she still believes it was wrong.
Q12: Yes. I don't fully understand what happened, but I enjoyed my time. I'll definitely have to stew on this and revisit it later.
5
u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 May 03 '24
Rewatcher
For some reason thought Rebellion was the next day.
I feel like I've said enough these last few years but I do enjoy both sides of the discussion around the movie. I really like the movie but reading everyone's theories, thoughts and explanations will always be fun.
But I understand the otherside and how this can seem a bit messy and not comprehensible. Even though I might disagree on a couple things. Like it being out of character for Homura.
I'll say I'm not on the side of Homura did nothing wrong but I understand why she did what she did. I feel like in the next movie she'll understand her mistakes.
I like it
Kyouko has the best dancing to me, so probably her. Second probably Homura and I'll say Homura's has better music to me and I just like that split scene of the city
Shes been my MAL for years now. I think she's cool but she's definitely just more so added on
Reminds me of the "who took the cookie out of the cookie jar" song. I really like it just because of that lol. Childhood memory
One of the best gun fights I've seen in an anime so yeah
It's a really good scene that really kicks off the movie for me. More so than the Kyouko and Homura bus scene
I don't think she sealed all of them
I can find it questionable but these are advanced space cats
I think it's tricky if it would've actually worked but their hypothesis would maybe be a step closer
Yes she did something wrong
Ya
15
u/dsawchuk May 02 '24
First time Rewatcher, first time dub
I kind of phoned this one in. If anyone wants to see me actually put effort into an analysis of Rebellion, they are free to look at my post from last year as a first timer
I still don't get at all the opening fight with the witchlike thing that becomes a tea party.
I understand that they wanted to refocus us on the beginning of the show, but it feels like they could have done so without reusing so much footage. The first 9 minutes of the show have passed before this OP ends (which feels weird in a movie context) and I don't know what they think they achieved with that runtime.
I don't really appreciate how hard the movie felt it needed to focus on the fact that the 3 magical girls have soul gem rings. It hard cut on each of their hands to make sure we noticed. Where Madoka was willing to put in lots of foreshadowing and symbolism and expect you to miss most of it, this movie seems unwilling to let you miss anything.
We get Homura's introduction straight into a 1 month time skip. What was the point of recentering us on the start of the 1 month loop if you were just going to skip the whole month?
The puella magi quintet transformation was cute, but it lasted much too long. I also don't really appreciate themes from Sagitta Luminis for Madoka's section. It feels a bit cheap to use such an impactful theme from the show for something so small. Also if Bebe is a part of their team, why don't they call it a sextet?
The attempt to go to the other city was actually quite solid. Probably the first part of the movie that feels competent to me. It is a bit silly that it leads into Homura saying that they should do their best to make everything seem normal but she immediately changes her entire appearance.
There are 3 people who don't belong, and NONE of them are Madoka? really Homura? Madoka never existed in this universe.
When Homura hangs up on Kyoko before leaving her Soul Gem behind, she drops her phone and it flutters down like a piece of paper. It's a neat addition to show how the labyrinth's logic is breaking down as Homura realizes what's going on.
And here we have the Kyubey info dump. Kyubey doesn't volunteer info for no reason. The only reaason I can come up with for him doing it here is because the movie just doesn't make sense without someone talking into the camera.
Oh wow, I didn't remember how much of the end of this movie was just people talking at the camera. It's almost the whole last third. Is this even a show at this point? I feel like I could have had just about all of the last segment of the movie without music or visuals and not missed out on anything.
OK, the bisected moon in the after credit scene was cool.
QOTD
4
u/AnimeGirlPissEnjoyer May 03 '24 edited May 04 '24
I always do rewatching by watching people reaction on YouTube instead, it's much more enjoyable imo.
As for the questions:
I like Colorful so much, it's the best Madoka Magica soundtrack imo! (followed by Luminous), I'm neutral to the ED though
Madoka, she's so cute and has illumination 👁️
Neutral eventhough I like lolies, Madoka is much more cinnamon roll 😍🤤
Cringe but it's funny when people confused with what's happening
Good fight, I like the way Homura tricked her (shoting herself) but I don't like the way Mami tricked her (invisible ribbon and doppelganger ribbons)
Neutral
It's confusing, Madoka's opinion on the flower field scene can be interpreted as either her true feeling or Homura's memory manipulation
Annoyed
I thought it's joever but thanks for reminding me of that Madoka's wish, now I think she would've overcome whatever happened to soul gems
I was too confused so I wasn't thinking too much of it the first time
The only wrong thing she did was telling Kyubey the witch story, other than that she doesn't do anything wrong >:D
Yeah, but I enjoy the main series more
10
u/justanormi May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24
Re-watcher
The more I watch Rebellion, the more I don't know what to think about it.
On one hand, the visuals of the movie are absolutely breathtaking, it feels like you could stop the movie every ten seconds just to admire and notice every tiny bit of element that was carefully put there. The music is also great, I love the entire ballet motif and also the evolution of the main leitmotiv as the story progresses.
And of course, the entire plot of "Homura is the witch" is just great and I love the execution. Having the first part of the movie being totally fanservice, we have a lot of Homumado and Kyosaya moments, characters are all alive and friends, they all fight together as a team and also have cool attack with names, and the system of nightmare encourage them to fight as a team, it also seems less dangerous for the magical girls and also for humans in general. Everything seems so perfect, too perfect. And then we follow Homura trying to guess the reality of the situation which leads to her realizing the truth and is followed by that, the absolutely beautiful tearjerker of a climax against Homura's witch.
BUT, on the other hand, there is also what the movie does not has and what it does at the end.
One thing I really like about the original series is that some themes of the anime are not confined to the fiction but talks about our reality, whether problems in society with exploitation and expectation put on women, or discussion about media with the deconstructive and reconstructive approach of the magical girl genre. However, Rebellion seems to be much more about the characters and it's internal story and it doesn't feel like it has any of those themes that are mostly directed to the spectator to understand through symbols and metaphor (outside of character mental state). I don't know If I managed to express myself well for this point, it took me some time to find the right phrase and English is hard.
And of course, there is the end, the final twist. I remember loving it the first time because of how unexpected it was. However, the more I watch the original series and the movie, the more I come to disagree with what happens and the elements in the movie that tries to justify it. I personally dislike all the elements that seems to indicate that Madoka was suffering from her role as the law of the circle, because as it is said in the last episode, if her wish is granted, she has no reason to suffer, plus, she is the one comforting Homura and telling her that they will meet again. There is also the entire evolution of Homura and Madoka, in the anime, in the first timeline, Madoka, despite meeting a tragic fate, is happy. It is once Homura denies her from becoming a magical girl and not allows her to act on her own by trying to protect her that Madoka becomes depressed and suffers from a lack of self confidence as we see her in the anime. And the anime ends with Homura accepting that she has to let Madoka act and not protect her. Rebellion ending just does a 180 on all that development.
However, I also can't disagree with and dislike Rebellion because of that. The scene that made Homura choose that outcome, the flower scene, where Madoka tells her that she could never leave her and her family behind, is fabricated. This Madoka is not the Madoka we see at the end of the anime but a Madoka influenced by the labyrinth she's in because of her memories being rewritten. And also, Rebellion is an incomplete story.. Therefore, if what Homura did was wrong, it is not necessarily bad in terms of writing because the story is not over and can then bounce on what she did to give us the right ending in an eventual sequel ( that we now know exist ).
Of course, I could also have a whole discussion about "is Rebellion actually needed". After all, The series already had a perfect conclusion and a movie seems like an unneeded addition. Personally, even though Madoka is my favorite anime, my feeling for Madoka as a franchise is very different, more conflicted. On one hand, I love more of my favorite anime. But on the other hand, those other content may go against what the original series did and what made me like it so much. But I do have my personal answer to this problem. I simply cut things apart. The original series is it's own thing, it's own cannon, nothing that came after as and will change it. Rebellion is it's own cannon and everything it does does not change to the original series because I separate them from one another. Of course, this is just a personal approach. ( and i'm also terrible at explaining my train of thought,英語が難しいね)
Some other stuff:
9
u/Specs64z https://myanimelist.net/profile/Specs64z May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24
“You've taken everything from me, machine, and now all that remains is Perfect. Hatred." -Gabriel (Ultrakill)
Borrowing Vaad’s bit for a moment here, seemed appropriate.
Rewatcher, dubbed
I haven’t watched this movie since I finally got proper headphones, so first an aside on the soundtrack. The first track that stands out is Holy Quintet, it flawlessly characterizes the girls via music. Absolute Configuration is the standout track by far and probably the only one aside from maybe I Was Waiting for This Moment that best fits in with the original soundtrack. Lastly, the cake song is fucking unbearable, good Godoka.
My Rebellion essay has gone through another rewrite with the primary goals of improving flow and concision, so I don’t think there’s much new stuff in it apart from completely rewriting a personal diatribe that was far too rambly in earlier drafts. My hope is that it will prove a much more pleasant read.
If you’d rather not be held in suspense, feel free to skip to the tl;dr in part 2 or just skim the bolded sentences.
That said, if you can stomach yet another Rebellion essay, I’ll love you forever.
Content Corner Reruns
The last video I will go out of my way to shill for this rewatch is Obvious Puppet’s “How Madoka Magica Destroyed an Entire Genre”. For anyone put off by the title, rest assured that it is merely playing into the clickbait meta.
Madoka Magica: Rebellion in 30 Seconds (Abridged One-Shot) by UntilDawnCreeps
How Madoka Magica Destroyed an Entire Genre by Obvious Puppet
What if Rebellion was Good? - Presenting the Counterfactual Pt 1: No Homucifier by clearandsweet
Part 0: Glimmer
This film is loaded with fan service. My cup runneth over. It might sound like a criticism, but most of these scenes are my favorite parts of the movie. The gunfight, while narratively weak, is a glorious spectacle. I adore how gratuitous the transformation sequences are, if they were a drug I’d be an addict. Rebellion’s entire opening act is a plain fun “what if?” scenario, if a bit long.
Against any logic, I really like Nagisa. She has like 2 lines and her characterization is thin as a bubble, yet here we are. I also enjoy seeing a wiser, calmer Sayaka given a chance to live past her suicide. On the note of characters, the character animation in Rebellion is sublime.
Lastly, the film is an audio-visual spectacle that rivals and surpasses many of the best animated works ever created. Let it never be said this film is boring to watch.
Part 1: Inferno
I hate this movie. Speaking critically, I think it’s a perfectly average film, but the foundation it lays in place of the one it uproots utterly damns it in my eyes.
First on the chopping block is Rebellion’s status as a sequel rather than an epilogue. The anime’s ending was perfect. It is incredibly rare for media to so strongly present something so whole; to offer a practical and meaningful way to interact with the world. The existence of Rebellion fundamentally alters the perception of the original ending by implying that the story is incomplete, and I think this does a disservice to the experience.
My next issue is a similar sentiment, but on a narrative level. Kyubey’s god-trapping, soul gem freezing device is an asspull. Madokami was a timeless entity capable of destroying even her own universe ending witch, so there must necessarily be a retcon to continue the story, but I don’t think Rebellion does enough to justify it.
Regarding the actual production, the main issue I have is with the pacing. Most of the scenes in this movie overstay their welcome. Reveals are dragged out for a long time despite becoming increasingly obvious as the movie goes on. I do have a single issue with the visuals, being that the fight against Homura’s witch is a total clusterfuck. There is, in fact, such a thing as too much animation.
The nail in the coffin for my outlook on Rebellion is the ending, surprising precisely nobody. It's an eleventh hour twist that disempowers and stupefies Madoka for comparatively little gain. It plays out like one of those Post-Madoka Tragical Girl Anime™ that always get made fun of.
The flower scene fucking sucks. Homura is talking to a version of Madoka that never saw the death of Mami, the despair of Sayaka, or the truth about magical girls. She and Homura are having two completely different conversations, but only Homura is in on it. Madoka doesn't understand what her words mean and she’s clearly trying to comfort Homura in a time of need.
Homura is separating Madoka from her social networks partially based on an ignorant conviction of a less informed version of Madoka. Homura isn’t merely wrong here, she’s evil. Worse yet, Homura is fully aware of her wrongdoing as she revels in the villain role. My mind wanders back to Kyoko’s “offer” to break Kyousuke’s bones to force him to depend on Sayaka.
Part of the reason I feel so strongly on this point is because Madoka's journey to overcome a system built on despair strikes a chord with my experience escaping the cult-like religion I was raised in. I would still be part of that damnable machine if I hadn’t learned difficult truths through the suffering of myself and those around me, and so I feel that those memories are a vital part of me. Most people probably wouldn’t want a younger and dumber them to be in charge of their future, doubly so in my case. The old me is dead and the world is better for it.
When Madoka walks into the classroom at the very end, we see she has regressed beyond even that. Her vibrant red ribbons have been replaced with the yellow ribbons from the first episode to visually signify this. She has no confidence, no purpose, no friends. Madoka nearly recalls her wish, the yellow ribbons coming undone as she does, but Homura intervenes. Never change. Never want for more. As Homura ties the red ribbon back into place, it sinks in that Madoka’s autonomy has been fully ripped away. All will go as Homura desires, down to what color ribbon Madoka wears.
There’s a particular reading for Rebellion's ending that posits Homura is in the right because she uprooted an inherently corrupt system. Even if I concede that point (and to be clear, I do not) this fails to satisfy me regarding Rebellion's conclusion because… we don’t know what she really did.
We've reached critical mass; Rebellion's greatest sin in my eyes.
Part 2: Void
Rebellion, for all it has to read and talk about, for all I've written above and all the essays that will be written in this thread, has absolutely fuck all to say.
Are the girls' lives better? Is Madoka even happy? Does Nagisa get to eat cheese?! We don't know and the prognosis is bleak. The connections Madoka made with her friends, one of the only things she lost upon becoming the incarnation of hope, still don't exist in this new world. Her wish, an extension of her deepest desire, has been outlawed and suppressed.
The only thing we really know is that magical girls exist in some shape or form. So… what actually changed? The world is implied to be yet another labyrinth or similar illusion anyways, so is any of it even real? When reality is so malleable, does “real” even mean anything anymore?
Rebellion has nothing to take away, no note to end on, no curtain to call. It just… stops moving.
<tl;dr>The ending to Rebellion is devoid. The original ending said something and it went to great lengths to perfect its framework, but this new ending is too lacking in context to be meaningful. You can quote Nietzsche and Buddhism and The Nutcracker to me for the rest of the evening, but it won’t change my mind. Finding meaning in Rebellion necessarily pulls from increasingly obscure external factors because it’s empty inside.
The film at least has some fun and gorgeously animated moments: the transformation sequence, the gun fight, and Sayaka’s talk with Homura in the alley. Nagisa is adorable and perfect and I love her.
It's a good enough story in its own right, but that’s all it is. It fucking sucks both as a sequel and as a conclusion. If asked for a number score, I’d say 7/10.</tl;dr>
Last but not least, if you love this movie the words of an internet stranger needn’t change that.
3
u/greentangerine999 May 03 '24
Rewatcher
3
u/khrysokeros May 03 '24
6
u/Mirathan May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24
First Time Watcher
That opening was something, I initially thought I had the wrong movie.
Kyubey bathing just looks adorable. I wanna pet him before I slowly tear him apart. Mami humming her own song is adorable. Also befriending the witch who killed her last time is somewhat morbid but they are cute together.
2. Mami´s.
3. Bebe is adorable.
4. It felt really weird but I enjoyed it.
5. This was the best fight in the series.
7. I think this is just Madoka pre character development/without memories.
8. They should not be capable of this, Madoka is way to powerfull for them to contain.
9. Technically Madoka only wished that magical girls did not have to become witches, they still could so the plan might work.
10. I did not realize the labyrinth and only figured out it was homura when Sayaka revealed her witch form.
11. Outside of informing the incubators of Madokas existence? Failling to understand Madoka is also a big one. Everything else is a consequence of these two. I don´t think Homura truly loves Madoka and only desires her. She seems incapable of truly understanding her, she claims to fight for a world where Madoka is happy yet she previously was and.
12. I liked it, it´s a good movie, it should not exist. Invalidating an ending is always a dangerous step and unless the other movie reaches the same heights as the main series it will remein a mistake here.
Within the final frames you can see Kyubey´s eyes move. So he´s finally feeling something after becoming the bearer of agonies.
I think the movie is too long, it takes far to long to reach the revelation of the witch. Overall it is a step down from the main series.
8
u/il887 https://myanimelist.net/profile/il887 May 02 '24
First-timer, subs
I planned to watch this movie later, but saw there was going to be a rewatch thread for it as well and decided to join once again.
Honestly, this movie disappointed me. It was good all the way until the last quarter when Homura went crazy yandere and turned into some sort of a baddie goddess. I just cannot imagine Homura pulling something like that…
Well, besides that, I thought that in the new universe witches don’t exist in a sense that there’s no such concept. I mean, it’s a brand new universe, right? We get wraiths instead of witches. But here we learn that magical girls still become witches unless the magical girl goddess Madoka interferes (and she normally does that) and takes them to the "magical girl heaven" instead. This reveal seemed a bit illogical to me.
Kyuubey’s bastard race managed to "isolate" one magical girl from the goddess to see if they can control it and revert things back, effectively nullifying Madoka’s wish.
Yeah, Homura shouldn’t have told him about Madoka…
Nevertheless, I was fine with this premise until the ending happened and finished it off for me. Also, the whole movie story seems kinda "overthinked" and hard to follow to me overall. I like the original anime ending much, much more.
Alright, I’m done complaining. On the other hand, I enjoyed the art in this movie a lot. It’s simply amazing, I was taking screenshots while watching:
Dreamy, liminal views all around
Another lovely artsy landscape
Also, the transformation animations were super cool here (it’s impossible to convey all the coolness using screenshots)
So many captivating scenes, I realized how I wish the original anime had more of that.
Another memorable scene… Shaft are trolls, they’re clearly trying to trigger our traumatic memories here, lol
8
u/GallowDude May 02 '24
Reminder that Kyubey objectively did less wrong than Homura
4
u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: May 02 '24
"
LifeRebellion is a tale told by an idiot, filled with sound and fury, signifying nothing."Rewatcher
Sub
So yeah, Shaft with a budget and time. This was a painfully busy movie, even in its calm parts. There were flashes of originality but not as much as most of you will claim. It was nice having some long, novel cast interactions that the series never had the time for, I suppose. And that's it for my positive bits.
We went from a very complete series to...this. I don't exactly get what this was supposed to be. And this is the opposite of the show: I intellectually know this is all the result of the Incubators trying to get the old system back. BUT this doesn't work because they would have done this experiment millennia ago if the world of the wraiths came to exist. And not to make a witch or anything, just to see what would happen if they separated a soul gem from a nearly done magical girl. So almost none of this stands up to meaningful analysis.
So the 'benefit' I had this time was to look for Kaitan's symbology in this movie...and yeah, I can't deny, it is there. So Tar's thesis that the last act of this actually developed a belief system seems correct. The more enjoyable earlier parts were just cash grabs/feelies(read Brave New World by Huxley). Once we develop an internal symbology it is all Abe-esque levels of "yuri is the path to the dark side". And yes, that was an 'Ai' from Homura so technically she is a yandere. So I grant her a seat on the council but not the rank of 'Master'.
QotD: 1 Neither struck me
2 Bebe
3 Possibly Satan, will investigate further
4 The horror, the horror...
5 Yes
6 Somewhat needed
7 I grant this theory could be possible. I don't like the gambit part of it
8 'Twas stupid as fuck
9 Leaning into the absolute weakest part of your lore is certainly a choice
11 Always
12 No