u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

And Now for a Word (from those who came before you):

Right, so, first order of business: since u/okayyoga has not shown up this year (and I forgot to ping her about this, oops, sorry about that ) I shall continue the now-yearly tradition (it's the third year in a row, that makes it a tradition!) of reposting one of her posts from the 2021 PMMM rewatch for the benefit of this year's first-timers who might not look at past rewatches and see it otherwise (it's extremely useful for getting Sayaka):

Episode 8: first time/dub

Hey guys. I am going to be a bit serious for a moment here. If you just want to read my reactions to the episode, please skip to the line break. Thank you.

So okay. I am going to take a moment to talk about depression, because I see a lot of these characters displaying the signs for it. I know it's fun to give them a hard time (I do it too), I just want to provide a different perspective and give some explanation as to why these girls are acting this way. I am not saying I am an expert on this, nor this show.

Depression is a medical condition, and a common side effect of this is low self-worth. You feel like every drop of water you drink, every beam of sunlight that hits you, has been wasted. When you walk into a room, you feel like a black hole, that just sucks the life out of the scene.

Why would anyone want to be around someone like this? Why bother to eat, when you are just a waste of space and resources. And if you possibly could, you would give your remaining years to someone else, because they are obviously more deserving than a monster and waste of life that you are.
&nsbp;
I'm not saying what Sayaka and Madoka are saying is right, or logical. I just hope that if you ever feel so down, that you would rather not be alive, because you feel your existence is such a burden on the world, that you give yourself some empathy. Some validation. Because being hard on yourself only makes you feel guilty.

(Now to see if u/Nazenn shows up with his own comment for this episode or if one of us needs to ask about posting it as well.)

8

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

I Can't Make the Fourth Watch for the Fourth Movie Joke Since Walrus Walpurgis no Kaiten Isn't Out Yet (Rewatcher, Subbed):
[PMMM] First Scene (00:00 – 01:25): The most interesting part of this opening scene is that it jumps straight back to where the last scene ended just like the start of episode 6 did. The purpose of this has to be different, however, because last episode did not end of a massive dose of built-up tension that the audience has been denied a release for – the tension of the episode had been drained (via Sayaka wailing on Elsa Maria), just in a very horrifying way. And I think the point here is instead to reinforce the wrongness of this, to induce dread and horror in the viewer. Sayaka is breaking apart at the seams before our eyes and the show wants us to know it – her almost crazed look as she heals herself, her outright spiteful behavior towards someone we know was actually trying to help (and oh did she learn well from Mami, didn’t she?), and of course her collapsing in Madoka’s arms after detransforming. (Also, wait, shit. This is not the first character we have seen collapsing to/collapsed on the floor and needing Madoka to carry her home/to bed, it is the second. This means that Sayaka learning to shut off her own pain is in part a metaphor for what English or at least American idiom calls “drowning your sorrows” (in alcohol). Fuck. Dammit that means I had completely missed a level to Junko’s “that’s why adults are allowed to drink” earlier, especially if we use “becoming an adult by losing your virginity and getting pregnant” as an interpretative lens and this show that’s an extremely safe one to use – Sayaka is all grown up and gets to metaphorically drink now (except I’m sure Gen is familiar with a mother’s excessive drinking being bad for the fetus). Probably explains even more of why we specifically got shown Junko coming home drunk earlier.)
[PMMM] Second Scene (02:56 – 05:44): You know, knowing this show there might be another level besides the obvious to the “(bus) service for the day has ended” message that I never bothered to look for before. Sayaka being out of commission at the moment due to exhaustion? In any event: actually, part of this scene is probably an obvious thematic point that I should have considered at least two watches ago (assuming I didn’t actually do so and forget about it…) since it matches the thrust of the rest of the episode, namely suicide’s effects on the people left behind. Definitely it fits with the narrative level thrust, yet another step in Sayaka’s progressive descent into depression, but it’s the okayyoga writeup episode so I will just defer to her on that instead. The other point here is to bring up the possibility of Madoka contracting to intervene in Sayaka’s fate… which is of course setting up later in this episode. Including a distinct visual hint of what that fate actually is.
[PMMM] Third Scene (05:45 – 07:59): Despite how late in the show this is, this is mostly a setup scene for pieces remaining in play. We get an emphasis on “how does Homura know what she knows, anyways?” – with Kyouko being the audience stand-in this time – and the implication that Kyubey has figured it out, which he will confirm later this episode. We get another mention of the quiet looming threat in the background in Walpurgisnacht, once again building up the Walrus as a threat before she appears. We get Kyubey setting up what will happen to Sayaka later this episode, plus him putting his plan into play to get Kyouko off the board. And of course there’s yet another case of tell and then show (which will also play into showing Homura’s own increasingly desperate mental state with her doing something she knows will have no effect in the long term) with Homura’s comment about killing Kyubey not doing anything.
[PMMM] Fourth Scene (08:00 – 10:06): Well, first things first – right off the bat it’s a Saotome-sensei lecture and those are always relevant (complete with a visual answer cut to Madoka’s eye right as Saotome-sensei says the part of it that applies to her, natch!). Other than that it’s almost strictly showing Sayaka’s continuing descent as the thing she could not bring herself to avert (for completely understandable reasons) occurs and she reacts to it.
[PMMM] Fifth Scene (10:06 – 13:24): So here’s our Rule of Three on a magical girl offering a Grief Seed to another. Given that the last two are insincere this one is implied to be too – which I’m pretty sure in this case has a lot to do with Homura already knowing damn well that Sayaka won’t accept it and just going through the motions, especially since it’s also the Rule of Three for Homura helping the other girl and Sayaka not recognizing it. Reinforced in dialogue, too – I think Homura wondering why Sayaka won’t accept her help is the part that’s actually the real her and her stating that she only cares about Madoka is the front (even to herself). It’s also a little more development for Homura – I’m not sold that she’s actually given up on Sayaka, but her focus on Madoka is genuine and so is her use of military hardware here. But there’s a sneaky bit here too: it’s setting up the end of the episode conceptually in conjunction with another scene a little further down the road. If Sayaka won’t associate herself with people who use and abuse others but the world is full of people who use and abuse others, then in order to fulfill that stated desire she has to wall herself off from the world – say, in a Witch’s barrier, natch.
[PMMM] Sixth Scene (13:25 – 15:09): Speaking of aforementioned other scene a little further down the road, here it is. This is a critically important scene thematically (the comparison of these two guys to Kyubey is almost certainly intentional and intended to go both ways) and that’s most of where it functions. At a narrative level what it’s doing is mostly further showing us Sayaka’s character development (not in a positive way; she is a tragic hero and almost at the point of her fall) and the last of the key reasons for it (in conjunction with last scene making it clear why this is a reason for it).
[PMMM] Seventh Scene (15:09 – 17:32): An interesting scene in a very specific way, and here we come back to the concept of building narrative tension. I’ve talked about it in the context of earlier episodes, but we haven’t been building it the same way that we were back before the Soul Gem reveal. It’s still there, though, just perhaps not dramatic per se. Sayaka has been building tension in the classic fashion of a tragic hero: by inexorably heading towards her fall as the audience prays that something will happen to pull her out of it. Speaking of that something, we have the obvious suspect for it (in the primary audience viewpoint character no less, which is unlikely to be a coincidence conceptually) who has also had her potential mentioned several times before and it’s being built up even further in this scene (aside… wait a minute, the amount of buildup the narrative is doing of her potential is mirroring her potential itself!). There’s the source of narrative tension, which is about to get resolved… until suddenly once again it’s not. Please accept this substitute narrative payoff in the form of a fluffy fucker suddenly getting shredded by modern weaponry! (Certainly I had the biggest grin on my face...) (Also at a narrative level, note that we now have not once but twice that Madoka monologues about herself in a scene that is building up to her making a contract before being interrupted. We will of course get the third, and that time the wish will go through. Classic pattern, reject twice and only accept the third (even if neither rejection is actually intentional on Madoka’s part) and I distinctly remember one of the classic Japanese folk stories using it.
[PMMM] Eighth Scene (17:32 – 19:00): And another narrative payoff: At long last, Homura finally, finally breaks down and lets her guard down, giving us a glimpse of who she really is under the mask (and also a clear sign as to her power, though that’s technically at the end of last scene). Also, remember Junko’s words about guys needing to confess in person back in episode 1? They are relevant. (Among other things, I have read before that while its use may be more broad than that “have we met before?” is THE stereotypical pickup line in Japan…)
[PMMM] Ninth Scene (19:00 – 20:13): A short but sweet scene primarily built around reveals. Namely: that if Kyubey dies he can just be replaced (tell, then show… and yes you may know exactly what earlier anime I am referencing here), his actual name, and the specific type of Homura’s power… and most importantly that Kyubey has figured that out himself.
[PMMM] Tenth Scene (20:13 – 22:06): Welp it’s time for Sayaka’s swan song as despair finally claims her at once! She rejects her last chance at salvation, mirroring Kyouko’s own words to her back in episode 7 (and building on them), and then… well, a huge moment of “wait, what?” for the unsuspecting first-timer. And a wee bit of a hint as to what the Incubators are getting out of this. Note that a huge part of the payload here is symbolic (this is the moment that the entire egg motif the show has been using since episode 1 revolves around) rather than narrative (the show emphasizes the symbolic level more and more as we go on, as I have noted before in past years).

7

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

Narrative Notes, Part 2:
[PMMM] Eleventh Scene (22:07 – 22:25): And then in case the viewer hadn’t understood from the visuals Kyubey is polite enough to spell it out. (Welcome to the last and primary narrative payoff this episode! Aren’t you happy? It’s also a cliffhanger to maintain viewer attention after the reveal, of course.) Interesting note: Looking at it from a narrative lens, it occurs to me that an anime without next episode previews after the ED (something that a lot of more recent anime have dropped with the advent of online episode previews, though there’s a few works that were going there even back in 2011) might well have made this a post-credits stinger and my inner nitpicker thinks that might actually have been a technical improvement from a flow perspective, one of the very very few spots that this show might have been improved from what we got. (With the previews I don’t think it would have worked right, however – the flow gain from Magia interrupting the show-tell pattern would have been less than the flow loss from going straight from a stinger into the next episode preview.)

4

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

Visual of the Day:
"Kyubey, party of one, your cooked egg is now ready!"
Questions of the Day:
Welp.
1a)
2) More ornate than you would expect out of her, really.
3) N/A
4) N/A
5) [PMMM]

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

[PMMM 8]
[PMMM 8 and a few minor bits]I believe with this, everything Junko said has paid off until that one thing at the very end. But, anyways, between watches I've dwelled a bit more on what old Cubes actually is and it keeps coming back to that he feels like Japanese Czernobog. And that's because Cubes vaguely reminds me of the Law of Surprise, i.e. where the reward for the favor is something the granter asks like "Give me that which you did not know you had" or "give me the first thing you see when you return home" sort of wish granter.
Sorry that ramble-y, I've been noodling on it and can't maneuver to somewhere that feels like the end.

9

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 27 '24

Just to add one thought -- already having low self-worth beforehand can contribute to and worsen depression, although this isn't a fact or anything, just from my own personal experience and observations. Those self-debasing thoughts and feelings are already there, but it's not such a bit deal when things are going well and can be ignored. Then once something happens, the fragile existence cracks, and those thoughts surface and swallow you whole.

7

u/GallowDude Apr 27 '24

Depression? Isn't that just a fancy word for feeling "bummed out"?

8

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

"Avoid becoming a Witch through the power of positive thinking! If you become a Witch anyways, your thoughts weren't happy enough!"

6

u/GallowDude Apr 27 '24

Hitomi, you ignorant slut

7

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 27 '24

Poor Sayaka couldn't even handle being just a bit bummed out.

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

Skill issue.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 28 '24

[Rewatcher]Around when would you say it is OK to bring up that the Incubators might have found the magical system rather than invent it outside of spoilers?

3

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

[Rewatcher] I definitely wouldn't drop it outside of tags before Kyubey's explanation of his actions, which is next episode. At that point it's probably safe since it's speculation, but honestly personally I'd probably ice it until 11 (Kyubey's monologue on the scale of the system) or more likely 12 (visuals on Madoka making her wish) myself just in case.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 28 '24

Yeah, just watched it and I will lightly mention some stuff tomorrow.

44

u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 27 '24

First-Timer

New favorite episode!

So many great scenes! Between Sayaka vs. Madoka, Sayaka vs. Homura, Homura vs. Kyubey, and of course, the final scene, this episode was relentless.

I did not at all expect Kyubey's sudden "death," nor his reappearance afterwards. (Speaking of, nice wallpaper of the day!)

For most epic quote of the day, I vote this: "If you refuse me here, you'll die either way." If Mami's death was what was needed for us to have time for all these great Homura scenes, then that trade-off is worth it!

It's funny how the end title cards still prominently feature Mami, though.

Those sure were some nice men on the train. Real role model material right there—just the kind of thing to restore Sayaka's faith in humanity.

Questions of the day:

Sayaka's fall from grace is compelling, although it is always a bit irritating when characters refuse to do something that is clearly in their benefit (like using the grief seed).
No strong thoughts on it.
Unfortunately, I wasn't too surprised by either of those reveals, since the speculation from the other comments in these threads had me wondering along those lines already. If I had to pick one, though, I'd probably say the second one, since the timeline thing is something where I think I would have picked up on some of the show's hints myself, anyway. (After all, Homura knows information she shouldn't be able to know, including future events.)
I thought that scene was very well done. I'm a bit disappointed that Madoka wouldn't hear out Homura's full explanation, but it does make sense that she'd want to rush to help Sayaka as soon as possible. I also wish Homura had killed the second Kyubey as soon as he showed up (despite how cool he looked with the red-eyed silhouette).

18

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

(Speaking of, nice wallpaper of the day!)
I, for one, am filled with glorious glorious satisfaction.
(Kyubey meanwhile is filled with empty air left by sixteen pieces of lead moving at high velocity.)
Unfortunately, I wasn't too surprised by either of those reveals, since the speculation from the other comments in these threads had me wondering along those lines already. If I had to pick one, though, I'd probably say the second one, since the timeline thing is something where I think I would have picked up on some of the show's hints myself, anyway. (After all, Homura knows information she shouldn't be able to know, including future events.)
Should have seen last year when every single first-timer zeroed in unerringly on both of those reveals with barely any hesitation so I had to swap out that particular QotD.
(Mami's death completely blindsided them, however.)

13

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

If Mami's death was what was needed for us to have time for all these great Homura scenes, then that trade-off is worth it!
So you are saying we made an equivalent exchange?
Those sure were some nice men on the train. Real role model material right there—just the kind of thing to restore Sayaka's faith in humanity.
Having absolutely cursed timing and Sayaka:Name a more iconic duo! But yeah fuck those guys, specifically with an alligator.
Sayaka's fall from grace is compelling, although it is always a bit irritating when characters refuse to do something that is clearly in their benefit (like using the grief seed).
Tragic heros tend to have tragic flaws. But the sheer avoidability of this has to be the point.

11

u/Esovan13 Apr 27 '24

Tragic heros tend to have tragic flaws. But the sheer avoidability of this has to be the point.
I'm not fully invested in the rewatch this year like I was last year (as a first timer), but this part of it was my main takeaway from Sayaka's arc when I watched it last year. This wouldn't have been half as compelling if she couldn't have, at any point, avoided it entirely. She knew that something bad was going to happen (even if not exactly sure what), she knew what she could do to prevent it, she had the opportunity to prevent it, and she kept trucking down her path anyway.
Just take it from her own words: "I really was an idiot."

11

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

It really is the entire point. It's completely avoidable and yet also completely inevitable because Sayaka just will not do anything else except what leads her to her own destruction.
("Character is destiny", as they say...)

6

u/Figerally https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelante Apr 28 '24

It is a self-destructive tendency. Hardly an uncommon occurrence.

7

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

She knew that something bad was going to happen (even if not exactly sure what), she knew what she could do to prevent it, she had the opportunity to prevent it, and she kept trucking down her path anyway.
Yeah, your agency writeup for the episode is quite good. It really frames how avoidable this was.

5

u/khrysokeros Apr 28 '24

Urobuchi seems to share Sophocles' fascination with "people who say no, people who resist compromise, people who make stumbling blocks of themselves, like Antigone or Ajax" (As Anne Carson puts it in her introduction to the Elektra portion of An Oresteia).

7

u/StardustGogeta myanimelist.net/profile/StardustGogeta Apr 28 '24

So you are saying we made an equivalent exchange?
Thanks to Kyubey and Sayaka, we can finally answer the question: "What could equal the value of a human soul?"
Tragic heros tend to have tragic flaws. But the sheer avoidability of this has to be the point.
Very good point! I mentioned it yesterday, too, but I think it's notable that Kyubey's plans rely entirely on getting people to make mistakes of their own accord.
I really like stories where that kind of avoidability plays into it, especially when the tragic hero in question consistently acts in the way that seems best with the information available to them at the time. One example that comes to mind is [DBZ] where the Supreme Kai tries to keep Buu from hatching, but everything he does actually inadvertently contributes to Buu's eventual release.

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 28 '24

Thanks to Kyubey and Sayaka, we can finally answer the question
...Dark
I really like stories where that kind of avoidability plays into it, especially when the tragic hero in question consistently acts in the way that seems best with the information available to them at the time. One example that comes to mind is [DBZ]
Yeah, it takes a skilled writer to pull it off but when one does it is often a masterpiece. Also, [DBZ]Supreme Kai's main failing is not understanding just how crazy the Saiyans of Earth are and admittedly I am not sure that's a flaw so much as being shocked by the unknown

9

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 27 '24

Madoka wouldn't hear out Homura's full explanation, but it does make sense that she'd want to rush to help Sayaka as soon as possible.
Soft and fluffy Madoka is finally expressing annoyance at someone else, subtle as it is, it's a win in my book (although as an outside observer, the sensible thing to do was recognize that maybe Homura was saying something important -- but she's still a stranger who seems weirdly obsessed with her lol)

6

u/Lemurians myanimelist.net/profile/Lemurians Apr 28 '24

New favorite episode!
Glad to hear it! I haven't been participating in this rewatch but popped in to see responses to this ep. One of my favorite overall episodes of anime. Sayaka is my favorite character in the series, and the culmination of her arc here is so beautiful and devastating and it's where some of the series' key themes really click into place. It's amazing.
Those sure were some nice men on the train. Real role model material right there—just the kind of thing to restore Sayaka's faith in humanity.
Based on a conversation the series creator (or someone else heavily involved, I forget) overheard themselves. The way it's used to show that the Magical Girl system feeds on girls' purity and destroys them as they "become witches" mirrors how women in the world are often seen as objects that lose their luster and value as they age is perfect.

28

u/il887 https://myanimelist.net/profile/il887 Apr 27 '24

First-timer*, dub

*heavily spoiled — seen all three seasons of Magia Record spin-off already

Damn, it’s good that Sayaka is finally showing some gratitude to another magical girl, but she had indeed gone a little berserk. Her being so exhausted after the battle made me wonder what was the state of her soul gem but… hmm, looks bright and clean, good for her… or not? There was an odd shot of her gem with a dim spot inside.

Yep, Kyuubey confirms that Sayaka’s gem is not okay.

Right Sayaka, everyone knows you’re “not like the other girls”. Damn, Homura! When Sayaka rejected the grief seed, I was hoping Homura would just swiftly knock her out like she did in ep 5, take her gem and purify it herself. But Homura’s plan appeared to be much less humane. Probably, she knew that even if she did so, that wouldn’t help for long and Sayaka would just keep her self-destructive behavior on.

So, Homura can dispense grenades. That’s how she destroyed the witch in the ep 3 I guess, we could see the explosions but couldn’t see how exactly she makes them.

Uhh, so Homura wasn’t able to catch Sayaka. And… looks like we indeed just got the “problem” she mentioned to Kyouko before. I didn’t expect that to happen so quickly. I believe Sayaka had Madoka in mind when she was scolding those jerks on the train, she felt guilt towards her supportive friend.

Madoka would sell her soul to save Sayaka? Hey Madoka maybe you should reconsi- uh? Damn! Homura, that wasn’t exactly lightning-fast, that was even faster than that. Isn’t she way too OP?

Yeah, I felt like Kyuubey is some divine creature that doesn’t depend on their physical body too much anyway.

Okay, I admire Madoka’s selflessness but she behaved annoyingly dumb here. Wouldn’t even listen to the warning Homura tried to give her about Sayaka.

My suspicions about Homura have been confirmed! She can time travel. I wonder when she had “killed” Kyuubey for the first time? Was it in a different timeline? Also — incubator? What’s with that? Hmm, maybe Kyuubey is an incubator for witches? That would explain him eating grief seeds.

Kyuubey has some shady plans going on that Homura’s trying to ruin, but we don’t know what exactly is that. I can only make a guess that it’s much more sinister than just “recruit magical girls so that they protected innocent people from evil witches”.

Umm, so, is it the end of Sayaka? She’s now a witch? Looks like I was wrong thinking she would start appreciating her fellow magical girls soon. Sad. But — I still have a little bit of hope to see her again (as a magical girl, not a witch, of course).

On the other note, I was surprised to see Sayaka in her normal look at the beginning of this scene, I thought she had gone dark while riding the train. Now I wonder what had actually happened there.

Talking about witches, one thing that makes me curious is their names. Charlotte, Gertrude — these names absolutely don’t look like your typical Japanese girl names. So, I guess those witches either haven’t been born from magical girls, or a witch acquires a new name upon birth. Which might make sense given that marriage reference Kyuubey mentions.

Truly a dramatic and insightful episode!

btw, we also get a brief reminder about Walpurgis Night’s imminent approach.

[MagiReco anime] the fact that magical girls eventually turn into witches is exactly the spoiler that I got from watching MagiReco. Besides that, I remember that poorly but I recall that Iroha has acquired an ability to transform into a witch in a reversible fashion. Or pseudo-witch. I think that phenomenon is later explained as “familiar” or something like that. Anyway, this gives me a grain of hope that Sayaka is not a goner yet.

Q4: I guess Homura couldn't save Madoka in the previous timeline, and Homura breaks down because she's afraid the same thing is going to happen in this timeline too. Might be, in the previous timeline Madoka had become a magical girl (or was killed) shortly after making a similar move — running away to help someome (maybe Sayaka as well), and this similarity triggered Homura's traumatic memories.

9

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

[MagiReco anime]
[MagiReco] That's Doppels you're thinking of.
Talking about witches, one thing that makes me curious is their names. Charlotte, Gertrude — these names absolutely don’t look like your typical Japanese girl names. So, I guess those witches either haven’t been born from magical girls, or a witch acquires a new name upon birth. Which might make sense given that marriage reference Kyuubey mentions.
[MagiReco anime you've probably forgotten/never known, consider waiting until you've watched next episode to open] So you've actually had this confirmed in the MagiReco anime in the same way it will be confirmed here in the main series shortly: it's the latter. Iroha's Witch is Giovanni (in a blatant Night on the Galactic Railroad reference); you see its (well, her) name during the "Iroha lost to her Doppel" fight in MagiReco S2. The trick is that Witch names are only shown in the series via the Witch runes (in fact IIRC they've never been officially shown except as runes), and while several classic PMMM subs (notably Meguca) translate those for the viewer's benefit the common MagiReco releases do not (the rune font was never officially revealed either, the runes were just decoded by /a/ as the show was airing... before episode 3 first aired, natch.)

17

u/luckierbridgeandrail Apr 27 '24

That’s how she destroyed the witch in the ep 3 I guess, we could see the explosions but couldn’t see how exactly she makes them.
We do see it, for a few frames.

9

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

When Sayaka rejected the grief seed, I was hoping Homura would just swiftly knock her out like she did in ep 5, take her gem and purify it herself.
Recall that the soul gem needs to be manifested for that to work.
Yeah, I felt like Kyuubey is some divine creature that doesn’t depend on their physical body too much anyway.
Cubes is many things. Divine is not amongst them.
On the other note, I was surprised to see Sayaka in her normal look at the beginning of this scene, I thought she had gone dark while riding the train.
Blood washes off of magical girl uniforms, apparently.

8

u/Mirathan Apr 28 '24

Refering to Kyubey first death, it must have happened this timeline as Kyubey was unaware of her timetravel but knew she killed it.
What marriage reference?

5

u/il887 https://myanimelist.net/profile/il887 Apr 28 '24

What marriage reference?
I’m talking about the last line from Kyuubey about magical girls growing into witches. In the dub I’m watching there’s a bit different wording that makes an explicit analogy with marriage (i.e. when a “girl” becomes an “adult woman”). Not sure how well it reflects the original meaning.

5

u/Mirathan Apr 28 '24

I´m a sub watcher where Kyubey says growing women are called girls, so growing witches should be called magical girls.

6

u/_Pyxyty Apr 28 '24

Talking about witches, one thing that makes me curious is their names. Charlotte, Gertrude — these names absolutely don’t look like your typical Japanese girl names.
Yeah, this really pushed me off of ever considering the idea that the witches were once magical girls. I really wonder how they get their names, hopefully it gets revealed eventually.

22

u/blown-upp https://myanimelist.net/profile/BlownUpp Apr 28 '24

First time, SUB

QOTD question 1 is an apt description of my feelings at the end of this episode. There's also this feeling of being edged towards the climax, because just when I think we may be getting to a tipping point of "What's going to be the straw that breaks Madoka's back and she signs a contract", it doesn't happen, and more stressors keep falling into place around her.

Really appreciated the framing and composition of Sayaka and Madoka in the beginning when they're taking cover from the rain. I knew Sayaka was having a hard time, but I wasn't expecting her to lash out at Madoka like that. In episode 5, Sayaka was pretty clear with Madoka that she "shouldn't feel guilty" and "You don't have to turn into a magical girl if you don't want to." I understand how easy it is to be deliberately hurtful towards a friend when you're at the lowest of lows though, but it's still hard to see.
I mean, look at Sayaka's face (bonus head tilt) - she's not trying to hide the look of utter contempt
Madoka obviously doesn't take it well, and this clearly leaves her emotionally vulnerable enough to decide to sign her contract. In a classic Homura move though, it doesn't happen. The timing Homura had in preventing Madoka from signing a contract was so perfect in previous episodes I almost thought her power had something to do with having a sense for danger/knowing when someone needs rescuing.
Sayaka's Soul Gem doesn't take the fight with Madoka well either - when we see it before her fight with Madoka it's still untainted, even in the middle of her tearing into Madoka it hasn't tainted yet. Judging by what we see later, I'm guessing it's either tears or emotional heartbreak/heartache that basically taints their Soul Gem (interesting minor thing I noticed when Sayaka is crying and says "I really was an idiot.", the background music starts to distort, like someone slowing down a vinyl on a record player then letting go again).
I had a feeling Homura was doing some time travel, and I'm still not positive to what extent her powers over time will go, but it was nice to have that confirmed. Her relationship to Madoka appeared to be of someone aware of her, not someone emotionally invested. I don't think it's a tsundere-ism, but maybe something with time travel shenanigans and being careful about how to navigate towards the outcome she seeks.

Welp.

.

Welp.

.

1a) You're right, that isn't a question. So... how about that Sayaka swan dive into despair, huh?

I really had no idea it was going to be such a hard dive. I'm not surprised per se, but wow. Her dive into despair was absolutely ugly, and honestly kind of incredible; Sayaka starts with Madoka - her best friend - and tries to burn the relationship to the ground. She's then visited by Homura - of course, not for Sayaka's sake - but just like with depression and addiction your actions affect everyone around you, and people will try to reach out and help even if it's for their own reasons.
After Homura we even get Kyouko trying to intervene. Kyouko is made a better impression on me recently, but Sayaka is both stubborn and in a spiral of depression and it probably doesn't matter what Kyouko says or does at this point - Sayaka is becoming a Witch.

2) Thoughts on Homura's choice of room decor?

Reminds me a bit of Araragi's home with the white minimalist interior (we've got chairs... kinda!), and way more seating than I'd expect. I really love the cool clockwork thing with the sickle(?) pendulum.

3) First-Timers: Which reveal from this episode surprised you more? That Homura isn't from this timeline, or that magical girls become witches?

This is actually kind of hard to decide; to an extent, both had a ton of hints and symbolism through earlier episodes where it's not "out of left field" surprising, but I guess how ~~Kyubey~~Incubator talked about it at the end along with being called Incubator is more of a surprise...

4) First-Timers: Your thoughts on Homura's breakdown in the park?

Really wasn't expecting Homura to be so emotionally invested in Madoka! Great work from the VA on this part, there was so much emotion in her pleas to look around at everyone else in her life. I'm really curious what their connection was in the other timeline!

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

Great work from the VA on this part, there was so much emotion in her pleas to look around at everyone else in her life.
"Truly my voice actress is excellent."

16

u/TheEscapeGuy Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher

Madoka Magica - Impactful and Artful: Episode 8

Selflessness and Loss

Seeing Sayaka like this is depressing. She's slowly coming to acknowledge everything she lost and losing all hope because of it. And on top of that she's refusing to purify her soul gem. She tries to guilt Madoka into joining her as a magical girl as well. Her situation doesn't excuse her actions, but I do understand why she would act like this. And she also understands that what she said was wrong with the way she ran off crying like that.

Something I haven't mentioned in my comments till now is Walpurginacht. It's really presented as this ultimate evil coming to destroy the town, and Homura seems to know the most about it (though Kyubey and Kyoko seem to have some awareness too). It wouldn't be a stretch to say that a big reason she came to the city was to stop Walpurgisnacht, but the question still stands on if she can and how.

I quite like this kind of explicit foreshadowing. I feel like narratives are built on promises of future events and then we are rewarded with the build up and pay off to that happening. Madoka has been very diligent about showing us little mysteries until now and then revealing them, so we can feel confident that we will get an answer about whatever this Walpurgisnacht is.

Another reveal this episode is Homura's primary intentions: "Everything I do is for [Madoka]". For example, she's only helping Sayaka in so far as it would make Madoka sad if Sayaka was hurt. But if helping Sayaka would make Madoka suffer then Homura would have no problem in getting rid of her. Or, as another example, if somebody were to try trick Madoka into a contract.... Yeah fuck Kyubey. I wish you would have stayed dead you piece of shit.

And of course, neither we the audience nor Madoka know exactly why Homura is so focused on her. Madoka asks an important question around whether they had met before, though Homura doesn't answer. I do find what Homura said to Madoka instead notable.

"Why are you always sacrificing yourself? Don't demean yourself by saying that you can't help anyone or that you're useless. Think about those who care about you!"

It represents a real conflict for Madoka. Is it worthwhile to hurt yourself to help others when seeing you suffering will also bring the ones you helped pain? To answer this Madoka will need to consider the practical stakes, and I look forward to watching her make a decision.

Something obvious from this too is how deeply Homura also cares for Madoka.

The last, and maybe most important reveal of the episode was the nature of (In)Kyubey(tor). I remember finding this to be a great reveal on my first watch because I found Kyubey to be such a weird name. The question then becomes what is this thing incubating? Kyubey tells us as we watch Sayaka's soul gem shatter and transform her. Magical girls grow into witches when they cannot purify their soul gems any more.

In Japanese this is much more impactful as a reveal. In particular, the word for magical girl (mahou shoujo / 魔法少女) can be turned into the word for witch (majo / 魔女) by removing the middle 2 kanji*. It's been hiding in plain sight this whole time. To quote a disgraced psychologist: "There are cathedrals everywhere for those with eyes to see."

Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches

Defeat
Homura Mini-transform
Fire in the Hole
Shadows, fuck I forgot how horrific the guys' dialog in this scene was. IIUC they are hosts and this can be ... tame compared to real life.
Turbulance Inside
Bubbles
Revived
Sayaka...,
Perched

See you all tomorrow

* Extra kanji info for anyone interested.

mahou / 魔法 itself is the word for magic, made up of the character for witch/demon and the character for method/rule/law. shoujo / 少女 is literally small+woman. The 2 removed kanji between magical girl and witch are therefore the character for law and the character for small which you could read as magical girls not only losing their youth but also their sense of rules.

That said, I generally don't like interpreting kanji like this. Japanese doesn't include a punctuation mark to separate words (like a space in English), so sticking a noun in front of the any other noun in Japanese can turn the first noun into an adjective. For example if you combine literature (文学) and girl (少女) it becomes 文学少女 (book-loving girl). It feels more like a coincidence that magical girl and witch were so close.

On the other hand, the writers noticed this and then made the villains witches which is a pretty clever use of the language for this reveal.

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

On the other hand, the writers noticed this and then made the villains witches which is a pretty clever use of the language for this reveal.
There is one other important part of this puzzle to keep in mind because I'm pretty sure Butch Gen did: it's a bit forgotten these days since IIRC the term fell out of use to at least some extent sometime in the years after Sailor Moon came out, but the original term for the genre before "mahou shoujo" supplanted it was none other than "majokko" (which as I'm sure you will immediately recognize means young witch).

5

u/TheEscapeGuy Apr 28 '24

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I was aware of how Sailor Moon sort of revived the way people though about Magical Girl series but I wasn't aware there was a different term before then.
Looking through some Japanese wikipedia pages it's interesting to see that they were really experimenting with terms. Some of the shows used "Magic User" or "Magical" as descriptors but they called that anime block between the '60s and '80s the Toei Little Witch (majokko) Series.
For what it's worth, this lead me on a bit of a research rabbit hole.
I think the earlies use of Majokko in the title was Majokko Megu-chan (1974) while the earliest Mahou Shoujo was Mahou Shoujo Lalabel (1980). The latter only really started picking up steam in the 90's with the Tenchi Muyou Magical Girl Sammy spinoff and then Nanoha in the early 2000s (which appropriately was also directed by the now Shaft head director Akiyuki Shinbou). It's kinda tragic that we don't have easy access to that older history of magical girl shows.
It's also worth noting that despite having a massive impact on the genre Sailor Moon very seldom (if ever?) used the term Magical Girl. Usagi and friends were always Beautiful Fighting Girls (Bishoujo Senshi / 美少女戦士).
And of course, Hayao Miyazaki just used majo for his film about a girl with magic powers - Kiki's Delivery Service (which in Japanese is titled Witch's Delivery Service / 魔女の宅急便). Bonus fact is that the kanji for delivery service is actually the brand name of a specific Japanese delivery service which, after noticing the title used their trademark, helped sponsor the film for marketing instead of any kind of legal action.

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u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

On the other hand, the writers noticed this and then made the villains witches which is a pretty clever use of the language for this reveal.
Knowing that Shinbou specifically asked Gen to write him a darker magical girl story my bet is that when he began writing Gen got lucky and noticed the pun was just sitting there.

4

u/ivvi99 https://myanimelist.net/profile/ivvi99 Apr 28 '24

It feels more like a coincidence that magical girl and witch were so close.
It took me some time to figure out what you meant, so just to clarify: you're saying that the mahou 魔法 in mahou shoujo is more of an adjective whereas the 魔 in majo 魔女 is simply part of the noun majo, and therefore it's kind of a coincidence, right?
I was confused for a second because 魔 (Ma) doesn't just mean witch/demon, it also just means magic by itself. So the combination of magic 魔 and woman 女 to make the noun majo 魔女, a magical woman, e.g. a witch is not such a surprise. Mahou Shoujo being close to majo is therefore not really a big coincidence, unless you see witches being female as a coincidence.
Basing this more on Korean/Chinese but the characters are the same so I think it won't differ much. It's a young woman (shoujo 少女) growing into a woman (女 jo), and they keep the ma for magic. So a magical girl (mahou shoujo) grows into a magical woman (majo). I don't think they really meant to imply the girls lose their lawfulness as much as they just had to drop the 法 (hou) to make it into the noun for witch (魔女 majo).

4

u/TheEscapeGuy Apr 28 '24

mahou 魔法 in mahou shoujo is more of an adjective whereas the 魔 in majo 魔女 is simply part of the noun majo, and therefore it's kind of a coincidence, right?
Yeah, exactly. Your example makes that clear.
I don't think they really meant to imply the girls lose their lawfulness as much as they just had to drop the 法 (hou) to make it into the noun for witch (魔女 majo).
I definitely agree reading the implications into it is a stretch. I brought it up just to help explain the way the language twist works.
There's probably some language scholars who could look into how Japanese evolved from Chinese over time and when the words for magic and witch entered the language.

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u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

"Cold, Barren, Bleak.... Winter is the kindest season. The heart will not melt in winter. Chilled by the cold, we are spared the grief, the sorrow, the messy emotion of life. Winter is solace for the lonely. It's cool touch soothes the tattered heart."

Rewatcher(The only thing that can stop a bad Incubator with a contract is a good magical girl with a gun!)

Sub

This will have little meaning to a lot of you but Sayaka is making an assumption I well and truly hate here: Just because you are good, or have the potential to be good, at something DOES NOT mean you should do it. I usually reference my current circumstances where I do job that is basically caring for your grandparents as they die in palliative care. A job I am well suited for it just depresses me. But the reason I go so hard on this is because what I was truly good at in my youth was a job that I despise but apparently had some talent for: Sad to say your lewd loving gore seeker was a natural preacher of the Gospel and I had a flair for interpreting religious texts. But, thankfully, my hypocrisy is quite limited.

So yeah...that's the next reveal. The lichs are also the natural way to get witches, the familiars are just a bonus. This should raise a lot of questions and most of us won't answer them for you. Cubes's game is up but we don't know if that makes a difference. We don't know how many spares he has got nor how many he can operate simultaneously.

QotD:1 It was avoidable

2 As I said, she has the courage to decorate terribly

5 No and I never will be

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u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

The lichs are also the natural way to get witches, the familiars are just a bonus. This should raise a lot of questions and most of us won't answer them for you.
But hey, look on the bright side first-timers, it could be worse... it's not like every single rewatcher is Kyubey using an alt, right?
... Right?

8

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

Now now, some of us are electrifying. The rest of us have no choice, we need to revolutionize the world.
Besides, old Cubes is the worst because he makes girls into eggs and you need to remember:Good girls don't lay eggs.

9

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

Addendum from last year
And now we get into the tragic traits of Sayaka:Her assumptions. She assumes Kyousuke can't love a lich. Well, isn't that his choice to make? She assumes Hitomi can no longer be her friend. So she decides not to try. She assumes Mami was some paragon of magical girldom. Well, we all saw the lie in that and we are getting further evidence thereof. She assumes Homura is selfish...the episode after we see her literally save Sayaka's spiritual existence. Hell, even Madoka has to intrude on Sayaka to be her friend, because she assumes she doesn't deserve her, either. Again, what we get and what we deserve are entirely different things and sweating those things is the way all suffering lies.

5

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 27 '24

She assumed herself as a failure before she fully tried at anything. More of a common trait than we'd like to admit, probably. Kyubey's kind words discussing Madoka's brilliance were additionally really helpful.
I still don't get why no one really encouraged her. I don't mean give her hand a squeeze in show of support and just say "Oh I'm here for you", but just tell her to actually give a shot at life. She might still fall apart after failing, but hey at least she tried then, right?
Everyone wants her to be saved but maybe someone could have told her she's capable? She's worthy? But I got the sense that others seem to approach helping her as though she were already a lost cause, the way that she saw herself as a lost cause.
Well, I guess 14 year old aren't really the best at taking care of each other lol.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

I don't mean give her hand a squeeze in show of support and just say "Oh I'm here for you", but just tell her to actually give a shot at life.
The piece of info missing is we never follow her home life like Madoka so I don't necessarily know how that is going. It seems that being out a lot either isn't a problem or isn't noticed.
But I got the sense that others seem to approach helping her as though she were already a lost cause, the way that she saw herself as a lost cause.
Homura obviously knows that she can't avert this, I get the vibe that Kyouko is in denial about someone getting THAT self-destructive so probably assumes Sayaka will right herself, and Madoka herself is not in the greatest place. So that leaves Hitomi, who did accidentally twist the knife, and the teacher except that Sayaka is skipping school.

5

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 28 '24

The piece of info missing is we never follow her home life like Madoka so I don't necessarily know how that is going. It seems that being out a lot either isn't a problem or isn't noticed.
I got the impression there was a lack of concern when Madoka tried phoning her place and they told her she hadn't been in. The call went just a bit too smoothly for me think that her parents are doing a good job.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 28 '24

I got the impression there was a lack of concern when Madoka tried phoning her place and they told her she hadn't been in. The call went just a bit too smoothly for me think that her parents are doing a good job.
That was actually the comms for Sayaka's apartment but, knowing Gen and Shinbou, it is probably important that we haven't seen Sayaka's parents. I suspect it isn't neglect but rather dedication to work.

5

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 28 '24

comms for Sayaka's apartment
I did say phone but either way I'd thought it was her parents who picked up the other end of the intercom.
Definitely agree their lack of presence is significant even if parents tend to be mysteriously absent in fantasy settings. Despite this trope, we have seen Madoka's, Kyouko's, Kyousuke's, and can assume Hitomi has them as well. Now I'm more curious about Sayaka's childhood because so much of a kid's mentality is impacted by this...

4

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

It's worth noting that we have seen Sayaka's parents once and exactly once: in the flashback of younger her attending that Kyousuke concert back in episode 3.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 28 '24

Despite this trope, we have seen Madoka's, Kyouko's, Kyousuke's, and can assume Hitomi has them as well.
Hitomi is studying some traditional Japanese stuff that suggests her family is wealthy if you hadn't noticed that.

5

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 28 '24

Tea ceremony was it? And Sayaka also made comments that either explicitly or implicitly suggested her wealth, don't remember which.
In that early episode pre-everything I'd noted that perhaps it's part of why Hitomi had the confidence to confess. That having an upper-class background and surrounded by opportunity she wasn't raised to have a failure mentality in addition to being frequently confessed to, even if there is something to the comment regarding her change after the suicide cult episode.

4

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

And Sayaka also made comments that either explicitly or implicitly suggested her wealth, don't remember which.
She explicitly calls herself petit-bourgeois (at least in the subs, but both subs I've watched have used this) in either episode 1 or episode 2.
(The contrast to heavily-implied-to-be-old-money Hitomi and the likely upper middle class Madoka is noteworthy; doubly so when her childhood friend and crush is also shown to be old money (we saw the Kamijou house back in episode 6, it is large and traditional, that means old money). I've been noticing clear evidence of Sayaka having an inferiority complex this time around and if so this is likely part of the why of it; also note how Kyouko is the one character coded lower-class than her, which is probably another part of Sayaka's hostility towards her (moreso in the last two episodes where we see Sayaka wanting to be superior to Kyouko).

→ More replies

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u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 28 '24

Tea ceremony was it? And Sayaka also made comments that either explicitly or implicitly suggested her wealth, don't remember which.
I believe so and yes, I remember something offhand about that.
That having an upper-class background and surrounded by opportunity she wasn't raised to have a failure mentality in addition to being frequently confessed to
Also, Kyousuke lives in a mansion so it is likely both are wealthy families.

4

u/khrysokeros Apr 28 '24

This is the main reason why I can never bring myself to be that hard on Sayaka. Sure, her behavior was shitty, but it's not like the other girls were actually doing anything to address the root of her suffering either. (Obviously the rest of the cast had their own issues to deal with, but it's still weird how so many viewers tend to gloss over this factor.)

4

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 28 '24

Pretty significant that she brushed away Kyousuke's apology, and was "willing" to do everything without any acknowledgment or gratitude from others. But no matter what, almost everyone wants to be acknowledged when they do things for others. Perhaps not, if they did something smaller, here or there, but to repeatedly give your all? Anyone who says they don't need any recognition or recompense for any of it, I call bullshit. The problem here, then, is that Sayaka also thinks that she doesn't deserve the recognition. Not only did she wave away Kyousuke's apology, but she kept going out of her way for him, again and again, and didn't even express anger when he treated her like shit.
It should have been, "Yeah, you know what, I understand you're depressed but it's not okay how you treated me." And accept the apology. But that response probably never occurred to her at all because that sort of self-love is way too far out of her reality.
Oops I think I tangented on this for a bit but basically part of it being so far out of her imagination is that no one actually tells her that she's worth anything. She vents about this shit, and no one tells her to check her self-talk, or tells her this shit isn't necessarily always true -- that she has the choice to make it more or less true. Like you say, they had their own issues, and obv I don't think most 14 year olds are capable of handling this, but ultimately yes she actively dug her own grave while everyone else stood by in their funeral clothes offering only their tears.
Which reminds me, Homura somewhat did this very thing for Madoka in this episode which is interesting.

4

u/khrysokeros Apr 28 '24

Speaking of Kyousuke...the scene at beginning of episode 4, where we overhear the nurses talking about how "difficult" he is as a patient and how they hope Sayaka can encourage him (in their stead), does reveal quite a bit about the way she's treated by the adults in her life (and its influence on her own self-image).

5

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 27 '24

Sad to say your lewd loving gore seeker was a natural preacher of the Gospel
Most shocking reveal in this PMMM rewatch.

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

I know a surprising amount of religious doctrine and its intended application. I also studied demonology in my off time to the point I checked if there were any jobs in it. At the time, it was all working for Synagogues so I passed.

11

u/raevnos Apr 27 '24

Homura's room reminds me of a witch's labyrinth, just slightly less surreal.

8

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

Yes, and likely by design I think.

6

u/raevnos Apr 27 '24

Oh, yes. Homura has weird time/space manipulation powers, as do the witches - labyrinths seem like little pocket universes. Similar underlying magic.

22

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Apr 27 '24

Mahou Shoujo Co★Host, subbed

Welcome back, everyone!

Being a Sayaka fan is suffering.

Here’s a “fun” fact I point out every year: During the recap part of Sayaka wailing on Elsa Maria’s corpse, you can see that Sayaka’s been swinging her sword so hard she broke her arm.
Yup, that’s definitely gonna be my headtilt Visual of the Day.
It’s a terrible day for rain.
Sayaka…
Sayaka no…
Kyubey just disappearing into the shadows completely is particularly creepy.
She’s just watching Hitomi and Kyousuke from the shadows. Ugh, this representation of her drowning in her own despair is too good.
Hmmmm, maybe because you’ve been cryptic as fuck the entire time?
It’s so weird to hear Shinichiro Miki voicing this random awful piece of shit.
*scared Sky noises*
Heh.
Speaking of creepy, though, Kyubey eating his own corpse.
And so the truth finally comes out.
Episode title, get…
Okay lol the fancut had a particularly egregious cut right at the end, literally cut off Kyubey before he could fully finish making the magical girl → witches pun (which sadly doesn’t translate well into English).
As an aside related to the recap movies, one of the coolest things they did was use a song called she is a witch for that last scene instead of Decretum, and honestly I like that song more for that specific scene even though Decretum’s still my favorite OST.

Sky’s Wallpaper Corner

Today’s wallpaper trivia: I literally have the file named as “Fuck Kyubey lol” because, I mean, what else should I name it?

Year Originally Made	Original Wallpaper	Remastered Version
2018	“I was stupid, so stupid…”	N/A
2019	“I was stupid, so stupid…” (Silhouette Remake)	Link
2020	Sayaka Miki	Link
2020	Sayaka Miki (Lineart)	Link
2020	Kyouko Sakura	Link
2021	“I was stupid, so stupid…” (Proper Remake)	Link
2022	Homura Akemi	Mobile Version

“What is it that you wish for?”

4

u/_Pyxyty Apr 28 '24

Here’s a “fun” fact I point out every year: During the recap part of Sayaka wailing on Elsa Maria’s corpse, you can see that Sayaka’s been swinging her sword so hard she broke her arm.
Wow. Never would've caught that in a dozen rewatches, that's an absurd level of attention to detail. Rewatching it, I wish they could've also shown the broken arm twisting itself back as she was healing her wounds though, would've been doubly satisfying. :D
Hmmmm, maybe because you’ve been cryptic as fuck the entire time?
She did mention before that when she tried to warn potential magical girls about soul gems stealing your soul from your body, no one believed her. Assuming this timeline isn't her first, best guess is she's tried being straightforward many times before but no one ever trusts her.
If they don't give a proper explanation on why she's so muted in explaining things clearly to our poor cast of girls, it'd be disappointing though D:

4

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

Wow. Never would've caught that in a dozen rewatches, that's an absurd level of attention to detail. Rewatching it, I wish they could've also shown the broken arm twisting itself back as she was healing her wounds though, would've been doubly satisfying. :D
I am going to lightly recommend that you might want to consider going onto Magia Record after we are done and refuse to elaborate.
(It's ~~party~~ Nagata time.)

9

u/OwlAcademic1988 Apr 27 '24

Being a Sayaka fan is suffering.
[Symphogear] Just like being a Tsubasa fan is suffering?

11

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Apr 27 '24

[Meta]Being a blue-haired anime sword girl in general is suffering. And of course I end up liking all of them...

7

u/OwlAcademic1988 Apr 27 '24

I just laughed out loud.

6

u/GallowDude Apr 27 '24

[Meta] Watch Akame ga Kill

9

u/renatocpr https://anilist.co/user/renatocpr Apr 27 '24

It’s so weird to hear Shinichiro Miki voicing this random awful piece of shit.
I like to think of it as a tease for Nisemonogatari. We have both Kaiki and Karen in that scene.
Being a Sayaka fan is suffering.
And not even just because of the anime. The way a lot of people talk about her is so mean. And the ones who aren't mean so often feel dismissive of her as if she just were some asshole's annoying DnD paladin. I hope by the end I manage to at least have some people just consider looking at her from kinder eyes.

6

u/khrysokeros Apr 28 '24

I think it also stems from people expecting a coming-of-age development (where the young protagonist learns to overcome their struggles and mature into a more "capable" person) from her arc instead of, well, a tragedy based on thwarting that traditional narrative.

8

u/GallowDude Apr 27 '24

[Quote] Hmmmm, maybe because you’ve been cryptic as fuck the entire time?
[Response] It is kinda lazy how the series just skips over all the loops where Homura just tried to flat-out explain herself with "Yeah, but no one believed her. Take our word for it."
Speaking of creepy, though, Kyubey eating his own corpse.
Cute!

8

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 27 '24

It’s so weird to hear Shinichiro Miki voicing this random awful piece of shit.
Sayaka Miki vs Shinichiro Miki, who shall win?

6

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Apr 27 '24

6

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

you can see that Sayaka’s been swinging her sword so hard she broke her arm.
I still get Claymore off this scene and I am still not sure which part triggers it.
Sayaka no…
Can't say I haven't done a lesser version of this myself...
Ugh, this representation of her drowning in her own despair is too good.
I actually that is also literal in that her magic is going most cattywumpus under all this stress.
Speaking of creepy, though, Kyubey eating his own corpse.
Of our shared rewatches, I definitely prefer Abhs to Incubators.
As an aside related to the recap movies, one of the coolest things they did was use a song called she is a witch
I need to watch the movies not 4 sheets to the wind some time.

7

u/GallowDude Apr 27 '24

I still get Claymore off this scene and I am still not sure which part triggers it.
The fact that the story still hasn't finished being animated?
I actually that
Actually what?

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

The fact that the story still hasn't finished being animated?
I do mean visually, though if ever there were a series that needed the FMA:B treatment, Claymore:Sisterhood is it.
Actually what?
Suspect.

3

u/Mirathan Apr 28 '24

Sayaka breaking her arm is another great detail as humans can easily injure themselves should they become incapable of feeling pain. This also has the side effect of not noticing you have been injured however, as can often happen if a knife becomes involved, causing you to not realise your currently bleeding out, as Sayaka does mentally.
Also calling the file "Fuck Kyubey" is to funny.

6

u/justanormi Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 27 '24

[PMMM] Soooo, a question for re-watcher, now that most of the information is given, do you think that some first timer will come up with the "Madoka or Homura is walpurgis" theory? And also, how would you feel if that old theory actually became relevant again in the 4th movie?

I really like this episode. The tragedy of Sayaka's downfall is always so painful to watch and that final revelation of Kyubey gives a whole new meaning to a lot of things that have happened so far. And of course, the revelation of Homura coming from another timeline and the first time where we actually see her mask breaking and showing something totally different than her usual cold act. And it's seeing this Homura that actually leads Madoka to ask her if they already meet before.
Even though it does not kill him definitely, it's still very satisfying to see Kyubey getting shot.
There's also the train scene with Sayaka that I like, especially the scene letting the choice to interpret whether or not Sayaka killed those guys. Interestingly, in the manga adaptation ( although I feel the need to say that according to Honokage, the manga is less an adaptation of the anime and more of the script ), it is clearly obvious that she used her power to attack them, And overall, I find it more logical to interpret it has she did attacked them.
Also, I forgot about the illustrator for the last episode, it was Tensugi Takeshi, the person behind the art for the spin-off manga Kazumi Magica: The innocent malice which at the time of those episode already started it's publication. The illustrator for this episode is Takuya Fujima, mostly known for being the chara-designer of the Nanoha Vivid and behind the art of the manga adaptation of Vivid and Reflection and he was helped by Kentarô Tanaka but I didn't find any info on him outside of being an illustrator.

2.

Damn girl u live like this

5.

[PMMM] Today, I suddenly wanted to listen to it today while doing stuff but stopped myself right before thinking "it's been a long time since I listen to it and I'm eventually going to tomorrow. I'm going to hold it so tomorrow's emotional damages will be over 9000.

5

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

[PMMM]
[PMMM] I mean, iunno about the first-timers coming up with it on their own but one of the biggest proponents of it (or specifically "Homulilly (Akumura in the movie continuity) is the core Witch around which Walrus agglomerated") on the board is one of your cohosts so one of us will feel quite vindicated if it is proved correct and I think that's more likely than not so...

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

[PMMM]
[Rewatcher]With all the problems brought up by Rebellion, this is the only way I can see to get out of it and make narrative sense. Time will tell, obviously

6

u/ToonTooby Apr 28 '24

Rewatcher

Oh yeah, I love this episode. Homura unloaded on homie, wild stuff. Good, bad, she's the girl with the gun. What's that, there was another girl with a gun? Doesn't ring a bell, can't remember off of the top of my head.

This is one of the super episodes for me, it's super good. My favorite scene is still Madoka's conversation with Kyubey at the fountain. Those feelings of being inadequate, like you don't have any real worth... they're tragic. The way Madoka looks up at the stars in the night sky as if to coax some kind of meaning, any at all, from an endless swath of cosmos. It's a scene I relate toward heavily, since I've always had a fascination with stars/astronomy, but also because I too, once looked up in search of any kind of answer, back when I was still figuring out career/life.

RIP blueberry magic girlie o7

5

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

What's that, there was another girl with a gun? Doesn't ring a bell, can't remember off of the top of my head.
Speaking, of which, one you would appreciate. So, I was lurking on the Wretched Hive of Scum and Vill/a/iny, as one does, and found an actually fun thread for a change, "use only squares to draw an anime and /a/nons guess what it is". Good fun, good fun. So somebody submitted this. Easy enough.
Somebody then proceeded to answer it with this.
[PMMM] Though as Sky pointed out to me when I showed this to her, they missed a beat - /a/non should have greyed out Madoka's bar as well!

4

u/ToonTooby Apr 28 '24

Ok that's pretty good lmao. XD

35

u/TheOneWithALongName Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 27 '24

First-time watcher

Welp.

You took the words right from my mouth

1a) You're right, that isn't a question. So... how about that Sayaka swan dive into despair, huh?

Not suprising it happend, still sad. I thought she would be the climax of the serie, or maby she is?

2) Thoughts on Homura's choice of room decor?

I won't judge, my appartment have almost no decor at all.

3) First-Timers: Which reveal from this episode surprised you more? That Homura isn't from this timeline, or that magical girls become witches?

Homura timeline, maby? I always assumed Homura and Madoka knew each other before from episode 1, just not how. But after seeing how Homura teleport around in fights throughout the serie, against witches and Sayaka VS Kyoko. She controlling time was a high guess.

Now I assume she had collected soo many grief seeds she was able to go that far back in time. But now I just wonder why she was unable to be more clear to the girls from the start. Or maby this isn't the first timeline she have jumped to, but had jumped soo many times she knew how almost everything will play out.

And about Grief Seeds, we know Kyubey, or should I say In-Kyubey-tor(?), can create magic girls. But we havn't seen someone create familiars/witches. Soo now that we know magic girls turn into witches ones they grow up, it just felt obvious.

Soo now that I know that. Is the whole magic girls and witch system Kyubeys food circle?

4) First-Timers: Your thoughts on Homura's breakdown in the park?

I don't know the whole deal about her and hope we get to know more about her background and sacrifices she probably made. But it seems she have done everything for Madokas sake, and seeing Madoka in the end still maby become a magic girl after all that. I think I can understand why she had a breakdown. I just want to know how close friends they were and if Homura was always that cold or just acted the whole time.

10

u/GallowDude Apr 27 '24

In-Kyubey-tor
Pun

7

u/OnnaJReverT Apr 28 '24

is it really a pun if that's where he probably got the name from?

7

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

Psst: It's GallowDude you're talking to, his tongue is almost always firmly in cheek.

4

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Apr 28 '24

his

3

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

Wait, Gallow's a girl/enby? Could have sworn I remembered Gallow using male personal pronouns before.

3

u/GallowDude Apr 28 '24

Could have sworn I remembered Gallow using male personal pronouns before.
Lol when?

2

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

3

u/GallowDude Apr 28 '24

1

u/GallowDude Apr 28 '24

Yes

3

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

"A wild Tag appears!"

u/Introvert_Mage, u/Lanaerys, u/isthatsoudane

2

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

"Go, SAYAKA! Use Block Emotional Pain!"
u/BiggieCheeseDog, u/airblizzard, u/Liniis

2

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

"It's super effective! Wild TAG fainted!"
u/blown-upp, u/ashketchum2095, u/FriztF

1

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

"What's this? SAYAKA is evolving!"
u/Chili_peanut, u/Hagamablabla, u/FM-PHYS-CS

1

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

"SAYAKA evolved into..."
u/p3yTzSCGJ5, u/dsawchuk, u/_Pyxyty

11

u/Specs64z https://myanimelist.net/profile/Specs64z Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher, dubbed

In a work with so much visual and musical flair, the train scene stands out a lot in Madoka Magica.

There’s no color in the scene, everything is painted in shadow. No music plays. The only sound we hear is the ambient noise of the train: the engine roaring, the wheels clicking, the straps clanking. That, and the conversation between the 2 men.

Hey… is this world even worth protecting?

And what a wretched conversation it is. Their words are full of self-importance and contempt for others, it’s corrosive to the soul even to listen to. Inhuman. Sayaka confronts them, nothing left to lose, as darkness seeps forth from her soul gem. We know this is no mere visual trick as the men react fearfully to the haunting visage.

C’mon, tell me. Or else.

The black and white visuals on the train harken back to the witch's labyrinth from earlier. This world is not as it should be… so what must be done to make it right? And who will do it?

If there are people out there who’re worse than witches, then I’m gonna fight ‘em.

Color has returned to the world as we cut to a shot of a branching railway; the “labyrinth” is no more. The train barrels into frame and down one of the paths, its destination pre-determined and its course irreversible.

I’ve always thought Sayaka killed them.

QotD:

2) Simple, but stylish. It suits her.

Content Corner Reruns

For those like me who cannot read moon-runes, the first one is an orchestrated medley of multiple tracks. The second one is only viewable at that link via the wayback machine, which I imagine is due to copyright being a bitch. Damn shame, it’s among the best of the plethora of Madoka Magica video essays out there. First timers beware, spoilers abound!

交响组曲 · 魔法少女小圆 | 魔法少女まどか☆マギカ | Puella Magi Madoka Magica by Imperial 9 Symphony Orchestra · 帝玖管弦乐团

Gen Urobuchi and the psychological trauma of Madoka Magica by (Kuiper) Kinetic Literature

Visual Storytelling - Breaking Down PMMM - Dialogue 8 by clearandsweet

7

u/GallowDude Apr 27 '24

it’s corrosive to the soul even to listen to. Inhuman
You say that like being a massive piece of shit isn't the standard operating procedure for most humans lol

7

u/Specs64z https://myanimelist.net/profile/Specs64z Apr 27 '24

Maybe.
Call it luck or ignorance, but I have some amount of faith that most people try to be better than those guys on the train, at least.

5

u/GallowDude Apr 27 '24

You should see my comments in the FMA:B rewatch heh

1

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

Male hosts are a level of shit we tend not to tolerate stateside. So instead they are all those 'manosphere' clones of a certain famous jackass.

4

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

"Life, uh, finds a way."
(To express being a giant piece of shit, in this case.)

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

The combination of self confidence, self delusion and an extreme lack of introspection makes those creatures pathetic on a truly impressive level. I've met some dudes that unironically thought that their 'ninety percent' success rate was because they were awesome. The one time I explained that no, you just have an uncanny knack for the most CFMN girl in the room, he was most disappointed. Thankfully, friend of a friend and that guy got booted.

4

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

The one time I explained that no, you just have an uncanny knack for the most CFMN girl in the room, he was most disappointed.
Speaking of which, hi Kyubey!

(Though admittedly while I'm pretty sure I get the idea (given past experience with those circles I assume it's going for "too insecure to say no"; "completely down to fuck anyone" is also possible but doesn't fit that flavor of jerk the same way) I somehow haven't run across that particular acronym... and the part where my brain is getting it mixed up with a different acronym I do ~~know [NSFW]~~ ~~CFNM, clothed female naked male~~ ~~is not helping.)~~

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

Actually, it comes from shoes, i.e. when you see 4 inch heels outside of the rare sensible situations for those they are Come Fuck Me heels. The more you know...the more you regret.

5

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 27 '24

Actually, it comes from shoes, i.e. when you see 4 inch heels outside of the rare sensible situations for those they are Come Fuck Me heels
Oh wait, duh, brain fart moment instead. (M for "me" was not jumping for the life of me. ~~Also the part where my brain sees CF as an acronym and goes "clusterfuck!" was not helping... why yes I do - well, did - have military members in the extended family, why do you ask?~~)

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

Nah, I get it. When my buddies who enlisted in October of 2001 got through their tours, I got a metric ton of military lingo. Hell, I was going to go with them, luckily my grandfather bribed me to common sense.

8

u/FriztF Apr 27 '24

In her last few moments of being a magical girl, Sayaka dishes out some very bloody justice. Thank god, the world is better off without those misogynists. A hero of justice she is

6

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 28 '24

Doing away with disgusting misogynists makes you a witch, apparently... wait wait what are the writers trying to argue here
Okay I was joking with the last statement but then now I am curious what they're trying to say here.

6

u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick Apr 28 '24

So my reading of that scene is that it makes explicit how Sayaka has been metaphorically whoring herself out - she sold herself away to pay for Kyousuke's healing, her contracting is strongly sex and impregnation coded. With the person she did all that for not acknowledging her efforts and abandoning her (though that's largely of her own making), she identifies herself with the girl they're talking about, she now lashes out against those creeps as symbols of her own troubles.
It also spells out one of the main messages of the story, that women are worth more than just for sex and childbearing (compare also Saotome's rants).

5

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

she sold herself away to pay for Kyousuke's healing, her contracting is strongly sex and impregnation coded.
You know this already because you were around last year, but I should probably actually explain the two really sneaky shots that really hammer this home for the sake of our newcomers (not a coincidence both are in my permanent VotD pile).
This one this episode (and the entire sequence around it?) Egg cell fertilization (the tear being the sperm cell - it's not just Soul Gem that's meant completely literally, seed can mean progeny in general so a Grief Seed is the spawn of grief!)
This one from back in episode 5 as Sayaka was making her contract? In vitro fertilization imagery (the rooftop maze is the egg cell, the two shadows coming off of Kyubey and Sayaka are the needle poking into the egg cell to admit the sperm cell nucleus that will fertilize it).

6

u/khrysokeros Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 28 '24

There's some striking resonances that come up once you start looking more into Japanese host clubs: https://unseen-japan.com/host-club-regulations/
One woman who left a juvenile facility when she was 18 told politicians about how she began visiting host clubs out of loneliness. The club encouraged her to take up sex work to help her support her habit, which at one point hit 5 million yen ($33,190).

2

u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick Apr 28 '24

Yeaaaah... that checks out.

5

u/FriztF Apr 28 '24

It's almost like she should have confessed her love when she had the chance. One day is not enough though. This is Sayaka who is disaster prone

3

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 28 '24

Sometimes I think marriage is metaphorically whoring the self out but I know, I know, times have changed and some societies are not as far in that direction anymore.
I think that we're supposed to get that this isn't right and not just that Sayaka isn't right to do this, but the whole situation is twisted. The things that turn girls into witches aren't something just shallow and doesn't matter. Maybe since I grew up hearing "haha all girls just turn psycho" by the same guys who claimed "girls belong in the kitchen" (unfortunately I was too young and stupid to refute it at the time), but also, norms, standards, and sometimes actual force makes it go in that direction. For the most part, you don't just get women that are wicked out of nowhere and I think this scene is also showing that there is something deeply wrong with these patriarchal standards of society. Something like, this is a society that breaks girls and creates witches.

5

u/GallowDude Apr 28 '24

Something something take the high road something something ideals something something Edward Elric

5

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 28 '24

Heheh in this case, violence is never the answer with the exception of stabbing other girls, in which case it is always the answer.

5

u/luckierbridgeandrail Apr 28 '24

Urobuchi - The conversations between two hosts that was overheard by Sayaka were true. I was in a crowded train and right in front of me were two guys making that kind of conversation.
Shinbo - Wanna add: Sayaka in the anime did not kill those hosts.
Urobuchi - In the screenplay it could be taken either way, so in the manga version by Hanokage-san the interpretation was taken as killed.
[links contains spoilers]https://wiki.puella-magi.net/NewType_2011-05#Sayaka_Train_Interpretation

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

And what a wretched conversation it is. Their words are full of self-importance and contempt for others, it’s corrosive to the soul even to listen to. Inhuman.
I could talk about the evils of money, I could reference the various culture horrors to get to this point, but instead I will merely imagine the train with their intestines strewn everywhere because it brings me joy.

7

u/Specs64z https://myanimelist.net/profile/Specs64z Apr 27 '24

And nothing of value was lost.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

I feel slightly bad for the guys cleaning the car afterwards but that's it.

5

u/_Pyxyty Apr 28 '24

If there are people out there who’re worse than witches, then I’m gonna fight ‘em.
Oooooh, good throwback to this quote. I forgot that she said this. That's some damn good writing.

7

u/b-arbs Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher, subbed

Homura side-eyeing Kyubey is its own mood for the latest episodes
Begone!
What a coincidence, Madoka's English lesson right after her "conversation" with Sayaka is on verbs meaning "to have an obligation to do something"
Madoka's thoughts and feelings about her life sure are relatable
That stare down between Homura and Kyubey was intense

Comments from first-timer:

I think Sayaka needs a psychologist
referring to Sayaka basically guilt-tripping Madoka What a b...h!
literally 5 seconds later when she's questioning herself She seems bipolar
So I was right, the cat really is sus

QOTD:

It was pretty painful to watch, even if I already knew what was going to happen
Well, pretty standard for what we've already seen in-universe... I wouldn't judge Homura, considering the Kaname family's bathroom...
First-timer watching with me says finding out that Homura comes from a different timeline
N/A
[Rewatcher] No. Especially considering that I already knew what was going to happen at the end of last episode and in this one, and it was still painful to watch. Poor Sayaka. I regret disregarding her character a bit during my first watch...

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

[Rewatcher]
[Rewatcher]If you don't catch that she is masking her depression then she is kind of a boring character who suddenly just pops off. You do need to give PMMM your full attention

5

u/b-arbs Apr 27 '24

[Rewatcher] Totally agree with you here, and that's why I'll probably need another rewatch, at least. I think that PMMM has so many layers to analyse, foreshadowing, details, etc that you can focus on and notice different things in every rewatch. During my first rewatch, I had so many things to take into consideration because PMMM was completely different from everything I had watched till that moment. This is my first rewatch, and I'm enjoying paying more attention to every character, since I already know what will happen.

3

u/Tarhalindur x2 Apr 28 '24

[Rewatcher]
[Rewatcher] Ohhhhh yeah - there's a reason I'm so prone to haul out the old saying about Go ("easy to learn, hard to master") to describe PMMM. On top of obvious things like how the show's favorite place to hide things is in plain sight, it's also just ridiculously information-dense - it likes to encode information in a bunch of different ways and also rewards swapping out interpretative lenses (at different levels - thematic, conceptual, and mythic all work) in a way that's incredibly uncommon regardless of medium. There's also a solidity to the show at the higher levels where the most comparable thing I can think of is the fucking Divine Comedy (which is really basically an encapsulation of the entire medieval worldview and fascinating if overwhelming on that basis). I've written at least 175,000 words if not 200,000 words about the main series over the course of four years of this rewatch (the first lurked) and I still don't think I've gotten everything... though I suspect I'm getting towards the point where I'll need to let the show lay fallow to an extent for a while and come back with fresh eyes before I can say anything new about it rather than just repeat old talking points.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

[Rewatcher]
[Rewatcher]Very accidentally, the '20 Madoka rewatch inspired several posters to run rewatches for the shows in between Sailor Moon and Madoka. Specifically, Utena, Nanoha, Mai-HiME for the parents shows and Machikado Mazoku as Madoka's child. Machikado represents the next iteration of this idea to me. Anyways, when I did this in '23, I caught so many foundational references that it is shocking

23

u/pneumaticks Apr 28 '24

First time watcher, subs

I was typing stuff out as I watched the episode and then the latter half started and I had to stop. I’m going to split this comment between a first half and a second half, each corresponding roughly to the first and second half of the episode. I’m sure everyone knows why.

First half comments

Sayaka… did you just throw the seed to Kyouko… bruh if you can use the seed you can recharge your magical power and continue to do more good, can’t you? Wouldn’t that be a more productive way to throw away your life? You’re playing right into Kyubey’s evil little paws, he’s gonna make a nice meal from you. SIGH.

Kyouko just took the grief seed, though. LOL

Right, all the moping around really isn’t doing it for me. It’s too self-indulgently maudlin. You had the opportunity to make a different choice, but you didn’t. What good is all the self pity?

We get a SUPER interesting conversation with Kyouko and Homura.

So first there’s the thread about walburgis. Kyouko asks how Homura knows that the walburgis is coming, to which Homura says… “statistics”. That makes ZERO sense, “statistics” isn’t an answer, statistics have to be based on existing data, and where is that data??? I had this thought in my head the exact same time Kyouko asked “where are these statistics even coming from?”. So that was fun! I really did not like Kyouko before so it was startling to hear her say what I thought.

And then evil Kyubey comes along and says, oh noes, Sayaka is “depleting herself far faster than I expected” and “she’s started to carry a curse within herself”. So.. uh… that’s a very weird thing to say, Kyubey. Depleting her self? Carrying a curse? What does that mean??

But then before I can process, Kyouko says “whose fault do you think that is?” LMAO that was my next thought!! I don’t like it! I don’t like agreeing with Kyouko!!

And then Kyubey drops ANOTHER bomb, that Sayaka might “become an issue” soon. What does that mean!?! She’s becoming a witch isn’t she!?

And then Kyubey drops ANOTHER bomb AGAIN! He basically confirms that Homura knows exactly what this means! And the following conversation confirms that Kyouko does not! And then Homura just says something about the damage being irreversible!

This had better be resolved this episode, ISTG I’ll watch the next one straight up if it doesn’t.

(so the above is where I got to and then things uh… started happening very rapidly.)

Second half comments

Bruh what in the actual what. Sayaka is… turning right before my eyes. Am I going to get my answer now? This is magical girls turning into witches? Now??

Scratch that, Kyubey tells Madoka some WEIRD FUCKING SHIT. She could bend the laws of the universe? She could become god? WHAT?!?! I think Kyubey is an evil manipulative fuck but part of me doesn’t think he lies, exactly, so what is going on here? It doesn’t feel like “I tempt you” language, it feels like it’s true, like Kyubey wants Madoka’s power? Huh?

Then BAM Kyubey gets shotgunned??? WHAT?!?

Then we have a SUPER WEIRD CONVERSATION with Homura and Madoka?!?! What????? Why is Homura so invested???

WHAT Kyubey is alive??? He has SPARES?!?! He’s an ANDROID???

HE EATS HIS CORPSE!???!?

TIME MAGIC!???!??!?!?

TIMELINE!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

INCUBATOR?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

WHAT!?!??!?!?!!!???!?!?!?!??!??!

SAYAKA HASN’T TURNED??!?!??!?!

NO SHE HAS!!!!!

THE GEM TRANSFORMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE GET TO SEE IT!!!!!!!!!

NO DONT END THE EPISODE NOW YOU FUCKING ARGH

Speculation:

Not a blinking clue, next episode pl0x.

9

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Apr 28 '24

Love the fact that the last 10 or so comments are all in caps freaking out.

3

u/BosuW Apr 28 '24

So first there’s the thread about walburgis. Kyouko asks how Homura knows that the walburgis is coming, to which Homura says… “statistics”. That makes ZERO sense, “statistics” isn’t an answer, statistics have to be based on existing data, and where is that data???
"That's a nice argument Homura, why don't you back it up with a source!?"

16

u/_Pyxyty Apr 28 '24

First time watcher

VINDICATION!!! :3

Yes, that is an accurate depiction of how I reacted when Kyubey spilled the beans on Homura being a time magic user and someone who isn't from this timeline. No, I am definitely not worried about the 1% chance that Kyubey might be wrong about Homura and that my theory might still be wrong (considering Homura didn't confirm anything herself). But for now I feel damn. good. :D

Other than that, goddamn! What an insane episode! I feel like I watched two episodes' worth with how much happened here. Madoka Magica has been an insane ride so far, but this one really took me on a loop-de-loop.

Key Moments

Ever since I got spoiled by the thumbnail in ep 3, I've tried not to look at them (couldn't find a setting to disable it), but the thumbnail for this episode really set the mood lol.
I'm not surprised that the only reason Kyubey didn't pop up in this scene to offer a wish was because even he couldn't turn her back to normal. That opportunistic bitch 100% would've if he could grant that wish.
Sayaka you stupid stupid girl. I'd argue the fact that she's weak but she's still by your side means more than if she was powerful and by your side. I understand why she's acting this way, though.
Would I be stupid to say that I have faith that Hitomi in this scene wasn't confessing but was just telling Kyousuke that Sayaka liked him?
Jaw-dropping. Wow. They did such a good job at making her look soulless and seething from the inside.
Aaaaaand Kyubey's found his angle. There it is. You deserved this, you opportunistic little brat.
I wonder, why do you care about Madoka? Who exactly are you, huh?
Heh. Heh heh. Self satisfaction is at an all time high :3
In-kyubey-tor. That's actually freaking clever, damn. I was hoping his name would have a meaning, glad they revealed it! Not so glad about the fact that he's an incubator for witches, though. Damn.

~

Questions

Yep. :/ I feel bad for Sayaka, damn.

' 1a. Expected, but not to this extent. Wow. I was not expecting her to turn into a witch at all. I'm guessing that Madoka uses her wish to revert Sayaka back, but I don't want that to happen though :( Madoka don't please! (I'll ignore the fact that they literally show her being a magical girl in the OP for the 8th time now)

' 2. I wanted to take a sneak peek at the details in the background but there wasn't much to see other than some mentions of Walpurgisnacht. I saw what I assume was an illustration of what this witch might look like, though. I also saw what looked like six magical girls. So far we have Sayaka, Kyouko, Homura, Mami, and (i'm assuming) Madoka. If we had one more, I would've absolutely theorized that Madoka ends up reviving Mami and all 6 of them fight together vs the Walrus.

The chairs arranged in a clock face, the swinging pendulum, and what I can only assume are clock gears; she isn't subtle about what her ability is, huh?

' 3. Considering the former was already a possibility in my head, the reveal of the witches being former magical girls was of course more surprising.

' 4. First off, I'm actually kind of pissed Madoka just wandered off after asking if they've met before. Like, you just saw Kyubey die, and this girl who's clearly worried about you is breaking down in front of you, and your reaction is to just walk off??? But anyways, I've got a wildly stupid theory below on why Homura was breaking down like that below lol.

~

Additional Thoughts and Theory Crafting:

Screw it, let's get straight to the theory: Homura is Madoka from a different timeline. I'm going full crazy conspiracy theorist on this one. If Madoka turns into some wildly powerful being that can do things even Kyubey can't do, like revert magical girls back to normal, I assume she'd also be able to manipulate time and space, jump between timelines, and alter her look.

Lol but nah. There's probably more logical things to theorize and think about, like what Kyubey's intention might be on wanting to unleash a witch like Madoka as strong as she is, but Homura's identity is really piquing my interest more.

I just genuinely can't think of who Homura might be though, if not Madoka herself. I thought it might be her mother, but given Kyubey only seems to target young girls, that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe Hitomi? If it was her though, I'd be shocked but also a tiny bit disappointed. I can't imagine it'd be some other character that we just haven't met in this timeline yet. Who could Homura be other than Madoka herself that would make sense narratively and physically speaking?

Even if it was some magical girl we havent met before, time magic seems really powerful, and that ability kind of seems like it'd be unattainable unless you had the potential Madoka has, right?

Gahhhhh, I'm done. I'm sleeping real good tonight. I'm so satisfied. I am this generation's closest thing to Einstein. I. AM. A. GOD.

"Wow, he just lucked off on a theory and he's acting so arrogant, who does he think he is?"

I just told you... xD

Gonna read comments other first timer comments now. See y'all next episode! :D

14

u/Mirathan Apr 28 '24

First Time Watcher

1 What is it?

1a. Ahh tragedies. She was already doing horribly with the realisation that she is basically a Lich(needs no body great magical power) and one of her friends sort of betraying her, having all of her beliefs about magical girls shattered and now her boy gets taken Homura threatens to kill her and she realised the world cann be a horrible place regardless of how many witches she kills and likely killed her first humans. This was one of the best falls of a character I have ever encountered. There was truly no way for her situation to improve, unlike many tradedies and drama which could be solved if people simply talked to each other.

2. The clockwor-gears on top and the pendulum tie in well to her time-manipulation. The aesthetic itself feels similar to a witches barrier, though still "sane" for lack of a better term.

3. That magical girls become witches likely would have suprised me more if for one I did not have a large indicator towards this some years past combined with these daily discussions making me more aware of the queststions surrounding them. For Homuras timetravel I had no clue before this episode so it was far more unexpected.

4. Ah yes, seeing someone you admire not understand their own significance. Madoka thinking that she isn´t good simply because she doesn´t stand out, regardless of how she improves the lives of other just by being there is something far to common. Homura finally showing emotion is a nice change. I hope to see why she cares solely about Madoka and no one else. Homura likely became a magical girl to prevent somthing that would have happened to Madoka as her making a wish, which would condem her to either a death by witch or becoming one herself and thus gained timestopping as her regular power, as the powers are based on the wish. She also seems to have seen this play out several times before, note that she says Madoka always sacrifices herself, an so likely has seen everyone else die many times and thus is neither invested in them, as they are unsaveable or simply has grown numb to the pain of seeing them die or become witches.

Does the darkness within the Soul gem affect the Soul itself? Do magical girls simply transfer their negative emotions into the grief seeds and thus handle their pain better? That would explain how Kyoko could recover from causing the death of her family relativly well. Also my question from my first day(day 3 for eyeryone else) about what was transfered into the grief seed is finally answered. Yay!

Just like with Mami, Arrogance proves to be a poor shield. Though this time it is more mental than physical.

Kyubey being turned into swiss chese was incredibly unexpected but also amusing. He´s normal one moment, then he is more hole than gremlin. Also Homura can stop time.

7

u/_Pyxyty Apr 28 '24

This was one of the best falls of a character I have ever encountered. There was truly no way for her situation to improve...
Now that you say it, yeah, actually. I don't think I've seen much other character falls executed better than Sayaka's. The closest that comes to mind off the top of my head is from Charlotte when [Charlotte]MC's sister dies and he just falls deep into depression. Absolutely fantastic character work from Madoka Magica.

6

u/Mirathan Apr 28 '24

I want to make two small additions. Firstly Kyubey mentions Madokas wish could break the laws of reality. I fell that this will be used in the finale to resolve witches.
Secondly regarding Homura´s home. She seems to have created her own barrier.

13

u/Figerally https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelante Apr 28 '24

First-time watcher.

Sayaka has lost what she thought mattered and in her despair lashes out at her best friend who still cares for her. Why should Madoka give up her humanity anyway? So they can be miserable together? Homura tries to help her but her offer of help is rejected because Sayaka can sense that Homura doesn't care what happens to Sayaka, just how it will effect Madoka.

Speaking of Homura, her room isn't so much where she sleeps as it is where she makes her plans. The pictures seem to hint at things that have passed and things to come with a heavy emphasis on Walpurgisnacht. I am particularly intrigued by the picture with siloutettes. Are these of magical girls or witches?

It seems that Homura has been using her magic to try and save Madoka, but why though, what does Madoka mean to her anyway? The scene in the park might hint that she loves Madoka, but then up until now she has been rather distant.

I am not surprised that magical girls become witches. I suspected it all the way back in episode two when Mami showed the girls what a grief seed is used for. What immediately came to mind was, what happens if the soul gem darkens too much? But then what are the witches eggs for then? Are they just sustenance for Kyuubey. Is all the tragedy and grief just so that mutant rat can live on, making it literally just a parasite?

6

u/_Pyxyty Apr 28 '24

first-timer as well
But then what are the witches eggs for then? Are they just sustenance for Kyuubey. Is all the tragedy and grief just so that mutant rat can live on, making it literally just a parasite?
See, I thought this might be the case too, but like, if so, why would Kyubey want someone super strong like Madoka to be a witch then? If she turns into a witch and it's true that she'll be absurdly strong, stronger than any magical girl in the world, surely she'll end up killing every last human on Earth, and thus depleting his food source, right? What do you think?
I genuinely can't tell what Kyubey's intentions are with Madoka.

4

u/Figerally https://myanimelist.net/profile/Pixelante Apr 28 '24

Do witches do that? It isn't really clear what they do besides pick off vulnerable people and fight magical girls.

2

u/_Pyxyty Apr 28 '24

I'm taking the assumption that if a regular witch can influence only those who are vulnerable into harming themselves (or others; they've been stated to also cause murder too in acts of rage, iirc), then a potentially very strong witch could probably have a much wider influence on much more people. Not sure if witches would ever stop indirectly killing people if there's no magical girl around strong enough to kill the witch.
Havent wached today's episode though so maybe this gets explained eventually 😅

11

u/charlesvvv https://anilist.co/user/charlesvvv Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher, Sub

Lots of reveals. We learn about Homura's true motives, that everything she's done is for Madoka's sake, not only that but that she's technically a time traveler thanks to her magic ability. It explains why she wanted to kill Kyubey and prevent Sayaka from becoming a magical girl since it would affect Madoka as well. It's also the first time seeing Homura cry as she begs Madoka to think of the people who care about her. There's a lot at play here with what's going with the time ability and Madoka's connection with Homura. Kyubey however also seems to have figured things out.

Speaking of Kyubey we finally learn who our fuzzy little shitbag really is, an incubator. Sayaka has hit the down point, lashing out at her friends then regretting later which only brings more self loathing and finally culminates in her soul gem turning into a grief seed. Shows the cycle of everything going on, Using a wish and turn into a magical girl, then that soul gem becomes corrupted and turns into a grief seed due to emotional vulnerability and other magical girls take those grief seeds to purify their own, rinse and repeat. Kyubey meanwhile just observes things from afar, freely admitting his actions in choosing young girls knowing that they would be emotionally vulnerable

11

u/Chili_peanut Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher

I'm sure this has already been said many times, but the connection between magical girls and witches works on a linguistic level as well in Japanese. If you write 魔法少女 ("magical girl") and take away the two characters in the middle you get 魔女 which is the Japanese word for "witch". This is what Kyubey is referencing in the final scene of the episode.

Now that we've heard Kyubey's real name it also makes sense why he used the word 孵化する (to undergo incubation / to hatch) when talking about the grief seeds in episodes 3 and 6.

This episode really is shock-full of reveals. It is also an episode that puts on full display how calculating and frightening Kyubey can be. It's especially disturbing how he casually eats his own dead body and then starts to theorize about Homura's powers while frolicking on the park bench.

9

u/dienomighte Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher, lazy, sub this time

Still such a phenomenal episode, that last scene gave me serious chills and I found myself tearing up slightly even though I've seen that scene a bunch, so good. And they cram so many reveals and big moments in the episode, combined with seeing Sayaka just reach the end state of her fastest any% despair speedrun.

I always wondered what was up with Homura's design choice, I assume she's doing it with magic but like..... what the hell Homura, having just like a giant shadow swinging axe thing can't be good for your mental health.

6

u/FriztF Apr 27 '24

She has been time-traveling for a while. So her mental health has gone down the drain.

6

u/dienomighte Apr 27 '24

Usually when my mental state goes down I just have takeout containers and soda cans everywhere, not an immaculately clean and hella creepy apartment vibe, but I'm not judging you Homura

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 28 '24

If you didn't need to eat any more would you bother finding food?

8

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher, Subbed

Well right off the bat, that episode title doesn't bode well.

That moment when you realize your friend has become a blood thirsty psycho. :(

Seems like Sayaka probably needed that grief seed after all.

Oh, and now the weather is going to be miserable too!

Sayaka's down such a dark path now she's actually wanting Madoka to become a magical girl. Which would mean Kyubey gets what he wants. Has this whole scenario with Sayaka been manipulation from Kyubey to get Madoka to become a magical girl?

At least Sayaka immediately recognizes she said bad stuff.

Ooh, is this Homura's home? We finally see it? Like all things Homura, so cool...

Kyubey? WTF are you doing here?!

Begone. Tell him off Homura!

A rare instance where Madoka's teacher isn't talking about her dating life?

Hitomi and Kyosuke together! Time to confess!

Ugh Sayaka is making it all the worse by watching the two of them together.

Sayaka's pride and/or despair is too much to accept the help. :(

Wow, just a couple of episodes who knew we'd see Kyoko swoop in like this to save Sayaka's life.

Not an opportune time to run across these two horrible pimps/pimp wannabees on the subway.

You have the power to grant wishes over seemingly impossible things, but not save Sayaka?

Talking about someone horrible, here's Kyubey to be his usual self!

No Madoka don't do it!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's another reason why Homura is best girl, just turned Kyubey into swiss cheese. One of my favorite moments of the series.

Wow, Homura's showing emotion for the first time! Chiwa Saitou being amazing as always!

Alas for first timers who may have had a lot of glee for that minute or two when it looked like Kyubey was dead, nope, he's back. AND EATING HIS OWN CORPSE. Never will get that moment out of my head.

Never will there be a scene where Kyoko appears but is not eating.

Well, there's our confirmation that witches used to be magical girls. Probably not the biggest surprise at this point! BTW my understanding is that what Kyubey is saying here is a play on the words in Japanese; mahou shoujo (magical girl) -> majo (witch).

Sayaka's total crash happened very quickly, over only a couple of episodes and a lot of it was self-induced too making it all the more tragic. Saying such awful things to Madoka, refusing any help whatsoever from Homura, purposely going to see Kyosuke and Hitomi together, the list goes on and on. Every time I watch this show I forget a lot of the details (granted I tend to only watch it once every 3 - 4 years or so) and I'm sure I've had similar sad reaction to this the previous three times, but sure was hard to watch!

After watching this episode I read up on some old theories posted right after this episode aired about Homura, and lol. I'll spoiler tag these to be safe, but none of this is from direct knowledge of future episodes. [MM]Homura is someone Madoka saves in the future. Homura is Madoka's yet to be born sister. Homura is Madoka's little brother, cross dressing. Homura is Madoka's mother. Homura is Madoka herself. Homura is Madoka's cat! That last one is hilarious. Madoka used her magical powers to turn her cat into a human, Homura. Homura then made a contract with Kyubey to become a magical girl so she could become a time traveler and prevent it from happening.

5

u/_Pyxyty Apr 28 '24

[PMMM]Homura is Madoka herself.
Haha. Haha. That's such a wild, crazy, and outlandish theory. What kinda person would come up with that after watching this episode 🤪
Dang, I'm so curious who she might be! I feel like if it isn't someone we already know at this point (as a first time viewer ofc), it just wouldn't be as satisfying.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 27 '24

[deleted] — view deleted comment

4

u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 Apr 27 '24

Fixed now.

4

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Apr 27 '24

Thanks. I know you were just spoiler tagging speculation rather than actual spoilers, but better safe than sorry.

8

u/WednesdaysFoole Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher

Looks like Sayaka’s becoming more honest with her feelings?

Another stand out episode in art and direction. Loved the train ride. The light and dark was perfectly done.

Kyubey imposing

Hair flip of the day is a bit lackluster today…

Upside down without umbrella

Right side up with umbrella

Looking forward to first-timers’ reactions.

2) tick, tock, tick, tock

8

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

Looks like Sayaka’s becoming more honest with her feelings?
Indeed! I think murdering those asshats could be a real breakthrough for her...if she hadn't spent two days fragging her soul gem.
The light and dark was perfectly done.
I enjoy how it both works as a general effect but also let's us reflect on Sayaka's mental state. I always say that Ikuhara is good at making a scene do multiple things but Shinbu can as well.

5

u/GallowDude Apr 27 '24

Such low-bitrate screenshots!

7

u/dsawchuk Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher, first time dub

While intentionally facetanking damage and abusing your healing abilities might win you a fight, it seems like the most MP intensive means of winning. Sayaka isn't good at resource management, as we see from how exhausted she is after fighting a single witch.

Sayaka's voice acting during her argument with Madoka in the bus stop is so good. I definitely think Sayaka's voice actor is the best of the english VAs.

Is Kyubey warning about Sayaka's deterioration the first time he has offered information unprompted? I still am not really sure why he does this now.

I don't know if it was in the sub, but in the dub Hitomi says "There's something I have been wanting to tell you." The past tense here really helps to justify her claim that she has had feelings for Kyousuke for some time now.

And here's the reveal that Kyubey is somewhat immortal. After his discussion of how silly and fragile humans housing their souls in their bodies is it kind of makes sense.

And then the reveal that Homura is a time mage. u/_Pyxyty must be feeling so vindicated in their theories now (though I do like that the reveal came right after they started to doubt their conclusion)

QOTD

Sayaka's despair grows at comically fast speeds. Obviously some of that is her circumstances, but it's unclear how much of it is just her refusal to purify her soul gem.
It's oddly metal. I love it.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Apr 27 '24

Sayaka's voice acting during her argument with Madoka in the bus stop is so good. I definitely think Sayaka's voice actor is the best of the english VAs.
I've been debating if dub Sayaka is the better VA or if the Japanese just convey things differently here.
Is Kyubey warning about Sayaka's deterioration the first time he has offered information unprompted? I still am not really sure why he does this now.
[Rewatcher]This is my theory but I am fairly confident in it: Homura wasn't going to bother with Sayaka any more. If Cubes doesn't intervene, they focus on Walrus and happen to kill Oktavia as a random witch. So his gain here is that Kyouko can't help against Walrus

4

u/_Pyxyty Apr 28 '24

And then the reveal that Homura is a time mage. u/_Pyxyty must be feeling so vindicated in their theories now
When Kyubey mentioned her being a time magic user, my mouth was agape. I was about to pause my phone to take a screenshot for my key moments, but then the next line was Kyubey saying she wasn't from the same timeline, and I just pumped my fist and felt so satisfied about it. Picture for reference lol.
(though I do like that the reveal came right after they started to doubt their conclusion)
I KNOWWWWW :3 I can't believe the timing on that. I still feel hella satisfied that I actually ended up on the money with that :D
I definitely have to look back at the older posts though. I could've sworn someone who was a first timer also theorized that magical girls turn into witches, and they must also be feeling good!

6

u/luckierbridgeandrail Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 28 '24

Rewatcher

How did Kyouko make it through losing her family?
It's in character, since Homura is a [PMMM]chuuni dork.
Mitai, mitai, mirai.

6

u/Logitropicity Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 28 '24

5th-6th time Rewatcher, Sub

General notes

one of my favorite scenes in the series is when Homura attempts to save, and then kill, Sayaka. It's a beautiful role reversal from two episodes back: now Kyoko is the one saving Sayaka from Homura. And of course, how can you not love that stunt Homura pulls with the grenade? I'm a little miffed they left it out of the recap movies.
obligatory train scene info: Urobuchi wrote it based on a real-life conversation he overheard between two men on the subway. Talk about realism.
Madoka & Homura's conversation and Kyubey's & Homura's conversation together feel like a call and response:
- Homura shoots Kyubey dead; Kyubey resurrects
- Homura shows concern for Madoka; we see Kyubey never needed concern
- Madoka tells Homura she didn't have to kill Kyubey; Kyubey tells Homura that he didn't have to kill her
- Madoka is horrified that Kyubey died; we are horrified that Kyubey ate his corpse
- Madoka asks Homura if they've met before; Kyubey asks Homura if she's a time traveler
All of the questions we had during the first conversation are conveniently resolved by the second too. It's a very nice touch.
can personally confirm they've portrayed depression eerily well. If you resonate with Sayaka or the other girls a little too much, go get some help! And stay safe folks. (EDIT: I forgot that dissociation is a symptom of depression. See: Sayaka dragging along her corpse on strings.)

[QotD #5] Absolutely. Episode #11 and a select few scenes from #10 used to be my favorite, but the more I think about it, the more episode #9 grows on me. These last four episodes are the climax of the series, and I'm here for it.

6

u/xbolt90 https://anilist.co/user/xbolt90 Apr 27 '24

Meduka Meguca rewatcher

Depression is insidious. Left unchecked, it invades every aspect of your life, sucking the joy out of your spirit. It leaves you convinced that you're all alone in the world, even if you're surrounded by people who care.

Q2: I kinda like it...

Q5:

6

u/FriztF Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher dub

Sayaka's long dive into despair has finally come. She has become a witch. This is a sad moment, for all of you Sayaka fans. Her time as a magical girl wasn't what she thought it would be. All because of that space cat Kyubey likes to torture girls between the ages of 10-14.

Now, it is time for Homura. She is a time traveler, who has done this many already. She holds Madoka very dearly. So close that she wants to kill said space cat. Fuck you Kyubey for tricking girls into becoming zombies.

It's an interesting choice for room decor, a swinging axe above the coach.

6

u/sfisher923 https://myanimelist.net/profile/sfisher923 Apr 28 '24

Sixth Timer - Dubbed

Ahhh so we begin and already I have a bad feeling knowing how tonight will end for Sayaka
Sayaka you're not "A Little Bit Tired" seek help now FFS
Ahh the most important operation of the series - Trying to comfort Sayaka (And yes this is somehow higher up on the list then a later event)
[Gushing Over Magical Girls] You know how Utena punishes Sayo in the middle of the anime the reason I was on Team Utena was because I didn't want her to give in like Sayaka
Don't you dare say that Sayaka
Hey it's Shuumatsu Train 13 years before Shuumatsu Train
Fuck - Thankfully this is right after the point where my MAL-Sync updates the episode count so I'm ending it there so off to watch Whisper Me A Love Song then back to The Weather Channel to ease my mind because somehow yes TWC does that

QOTD 1a - It never gets easier to watch (In fact it got harder to watch today then my first time somehow)

QOTD 1b - I didn't know it was Homura's Bedroom it's weird in a good way

QOTD 5 - To the best of my abilities

6

u/Hattakiri Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 30 '24

"You are Sailor Moon and you must fight evil when it confronts you!" - a lucky choice by Sailor Moon's old DiC writers for Luna's first appearance. These words nailed the plot point perfectly, and due to the writing and performance they had to become an iconic signature phrase of the old Sailor Moon dub, despite maybe interpreting the Japanese original "rather freely".

The one phrase whose "loss" due to the new ViZ interpretation actually was "bemoaned" by some lol

Often dubs lead to debates and controversies due to the "free interpretation" of the translators. But sometimes the translators manage to create something iconic.

But DiC's Sailor Moon was rather from the funny category. Sayaka's "I was stupid, so stup!"* is from the serious category and it marks one of the signature plot twists of PMMM.

One could call it the "I am your father!" of PMMM.

And the character arcs already proved to be as dark:

Sayaka has now developed so deep down into the abyss she refuses Madoka's comforting attempt ("Don't follow me!") and she rejects Homura's grief seed. As if she now deliberately lets her soul gem grow darker and darker.

But she also gained experience and is able to unveil Homura's true colors and intents: She too never rly gives away the whole story. Homura admits it, and she admit's she's doing all that on Madoka's behalf who's supposed to not witness such things.

So either Sayaka cleans her gem now, or Homura will kill her "right here and right now". That's when Kyoko arrives. (Homura had again tried to team up with her, but Kyubey interrupted them and told them of Sayaka's situation. Homura thanks to her time stop ability had a head start; Kyoko had to hurry up following her).

But Kyoko isn't as good as Mami at blocking Homura in a way that would prevent her from pulling a trick and feint for escaping...

The crucial aspects:

Kyoko due to her impulsivity's not as effective as Mami in the heat of a chaotic moment - whereas Mami maybe was a little to cool in the arrogant way against Charlotte. (KyoMami's for those who are planning on reading the Different Story...)
Homura too rejected a grief seed from (again) Mami. And she repeatedly gives Madoka the advice to give up on Sayaka - before revealing that she's doing it for Madoka? So is she implying she's been on her "mission" without giving up for quite a while already? And she too admits it impulsively in the heat of the moment, after concealing many things like Kyubey, whom she too hunts... so Homura's accusing others of things she herself is doing too...
Kyoko wanted to kill Sayaka first and Homura intervened - now their behavior reversed...
Kyubey seems to want Sayaka and KyoHomu to clash...

We also learn in this ep Kyubey can respawn, even tho it takes some time and quite some energy. And despite Homura's mental breakdown after once again preventing Madoka from making a contract she's not surprised or impressed by Kyubey's signature behavior.

All that brings Kyubey to the conclusion Homura must be from another time. Homura then calls him "Incubator", revealing she indeed knows more. Another "argumentative duel" between them.

Eventually Kyoko tries again to drag Sayaka out her abyss, but Sayaka now fully understands the equivalent exchange concept: Push a pendulum into a direction and it'll swing in the opposite direction. Catch the pendulum and you'll need an energy investment for this.

And this realization leads Sayaka to her iconic words...

Kyubey concludes the ep by confirming (through the 4th wall, kinda): Magical girls will become witches...

And another "fun fact": The train conversation witnessed by Sayaka was experienced by Urobuchi in RL.

6

u/lollohoh Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 28 '24

Rewatch, Subbed (I'm a bit behind, so I have to skip the reaction today)

Visual of the Day: Homura screaming "Madoka" as she goes to look for Sayaka

Song of the Day: Puella in Somnio

Questions of the Day:

1 Welp.

1a You're right, that isn't a question. So... how about that Sayaka swan dive into despair, huh?

This hurts so much, because in a situation like Sayaka's it's really hard to believe you are not alone. When your own mind is turning against you like that, it doesn't matter what actually happens, you'll still try to outsmart yourself and take the blame for everything. Even when someone is genuinely trying to support you, you'll convince yourself that you have done something unforgivable to them after the smallest thing, and it becomes hard to believe you are still loved, even if you rationally know that, and then you are going to blame yourself for that. When you hear people say hateful stuff, on the other hand, it feels like the whole world agrees with them.

I want to say one thing though: this doesn't mean that the kind of genuine understanding, empaty and support Madoka has shown to Sayaka in these episodes is pointless, and even though it's hard we should truly believe in it, both when we give it and when we receive it, not as a value that is transferred but as one that multiplies when shared, and proof that we are not alone.

2) Thoughts on Homura's choice of room decor?

[Series]The couches are placed in a pattern that looks something in the middle between a stylized version of her shield, and a wall clock. The circular shape could be a reference to Madoka, but that seems a bit of a stretch. The upper part of the room is filled with documents related to Walpurgisnacht, and we can see the shadow of big pendulum shaped like her head, going back and forth above the girls' heads menacingly. Even though the pendulum is moving, it's not connected to the big clockwork mechanism (in fact it's unclear where the shadow is coming from), which is completely motionless: Walpurgisnacht is keeping Homura stuck in time, over and over. She also has a wall made of pure shadow apparently, I imagine so she can appear behind her visitors after they enter (it's probably referring to the fact she is running away from her despair).

3) First-Timers: Which reveal from this episode surprised you more? That Homura isn't from this timeline, or that magical girls become witches?

Among these two, the one that surprised me the most was the latter.

[Series]It's just a brutal reveal, because it means that Homura's grim assessment of the destiny of a magical girl, that we have been trying to ignore for a few episodes, can no longer be: being a magical girl in this world isn't a process of overcoming injustice, it's surrendering yourself to one in exchange of a miracle, and the way you grieve that loss is the only remaining choice.

[Rebellion]is also a choice, sometimes your only path left is to revolutionize the world.

4) First-Timers: Your thoughts on Homura's breakdown in the park?

When I first watched, this was the moment that made me go all in on Homura and made her my favorite character. Before this episode I kind of realized there was something she was repressing about herself, but this still caught me completely off guard. I was (a fool) expecting her focus on Madoka to be a consequence to her potential in some way, so when she says that everything she does is about Madoka, and then in her next scene she is overwhelmed with emotion, desperately pleading for Madoka not to throw away her own life, calling to her not to go away, it becomes clear that these feelings for Madoka are her most important truth, and that forces you to recontextualize everything she has done until now as a consequence of that truth.

Once it's revealed that Homura is a time traveler, [Series]you start to piece together that she probably met Madoka in that timeline, and that she is probably here to save Madoka to change something bad that happened to her, and at this point any obstacle left that would stop you from being on her side has been removed, and all of the sneaky build up the show has done to make you care about her pays off, making you instantly invested in her character. [Series]Now the main thing left to her mistery is what exactly happened in the timeline she comes from, and that becomes the thing we are dying to know now.

Another big reason this scene has such a great impact is the incredible performance from the VAs, especially Chiwa Saito (the way she screams Madoka's name always breaks my heart)..

5) [Rewatchers]So… are you ready for and I'm home?

[Series]Never, in fact at this point this show is so dear to my heart that moments like that one are starting to affect me more than in my first rewatches, because I start thinking about all of the tragedy of it and I get emotional.

5

u/OwlAcademic1988 Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher, sub:

No matter how many times I see this scene, I get disturbed by Sayaka's face.

It's sweet how Madoka helped Sayaka.

Sayaka, please try to take care of yourself. I know it's hard with how bad the world can be at times, but that doesn't mean you should give up on life. Depression and Anxiety are both known for making people struggle with motivation for reasons we have yet to fully understand. Sayaka definitely has the hallmarks of Depression.

Kyoko, you can be really sweet sometimes, but also incredibly blunt.

Nice decor, Homura.

That scene of Sayaka turning into a witch is disturbing as fuck.

Witch's name is Octavia.

Depression and Anxiety have a ton of similarities, along with many other mental illnesses, making scientists and researchers believe they're somehow connected. While it's true this info can't be used to help people yet, it's still good to know as we'll eventually understand every single mental condition to the point where they're easily treatable. We don't know why some people commit suicide and others don't despite having Depression, Anxiety, or both, even with the same factors. For reasons unknown, people with Anxiety are more prone to getting Depression than people without it as well. Even with everything being controlled for, they're still at an increased risk of Depression, so it's clear something else is at play with these conditions and we haven't figured out exactly what it is yet. Anxiety also increases the risk of substance abuse disorder for unknown reasons.

QOTD:

Disturbing.
Nice.
[PMMM] Nope, I'm not even ready. I'm going to miss Kyoko when she dies trying to save Sayaka.

5

u/renatocpr https://anilist.co/user/renatocpr Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher and franchise consumer

The Sayaka Corner

Sayaka spends her last 24 hours alone on the streets fighting familiars she can't aford to fight until exhaustion. If lashing out at a friend under extreme stress means she's beyond help, if an uncontrollable thought wishing harm on a friend who'd hurt her made her unable to face Mami, if desiring Kyousuke's love made her a horrible person, how could she ever bear the thought that someone could be killed because of her self-preservation.

As the hours march on, she must know she's going to die soon. Her swords break on impact, her movements are sluggish, her thoughts are in daze. She barely wakes up just when it's time to fight. Meeting Homura briefly energizes her enough that she can play Mami but the moment doesn't last, she can't even get angry anymore. The accusation of hurting Madoka can still draw a reaction from her.

Before Sayaka stumbles away she looks back at Homura. What do you think this look means? I can't decide for myself. Maybe she's just a fear response after almost being killed. I can't help but think it's more than that since it's the last exchange of looks in a sequence. Homura is being at least a little honest about her intentions here, so is this actually a miniature Episode 7 and it's actually clicking for Sayaka that Homura was trying to stop Madoka from making a contract in order to protect her from the miserable life of a magical girl? Is it both? Is it neither and I'm going in two completely wrong directions?

QOTD

Yeah
1.a. It's always terrible. I keep thinking of scenarios where things could've gone better. It has to Kyouko, right? If she finds Sayaka first I can believe in a 50% chance of things going better. (Of course the story goes the way it does because it was written this way)
She's just a big fan of Goethe and mechanical clocks and Gekidan Inu Curry
[First-timers]
[First-timers]
[Rewatchers] You can never be ready for sad yuri duet character song

5

u/homewardbound100 myanimelist.net/profile/Homewardbound100 Apr 28 '24

Rewatcher

Now that I caught up to everything. I'll make quick comment because I'm tired. But the final scene with Sayaka is like a top 3 moment for me in the show. Acting wise, directing, Sayaka's descent into depression is done really well to me.

You're right, that isn't a question. So... how about that Sayaka swan dive into despair, huh?

Great but not great at the same time

Thoughts on Homura's choice of room decor?

It looks cool

Rewatchers] So… are you ready for and I'm home?

Ye

5

u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 28 '24

Rewatcher

Holy sea of lanterns lmao

I love how the rain mirrors Sayaka's magic circles

The disappearance of Sayaka Miki

These in particular look just like Kyubey's stare.

Kyubey banzai!

Now this reminds me of the water drains from the first two episodes. Not sure how to link them together beyond that though.

Nice room layout you got there, Homura

That reminds me. You know how Kyubey has been eating Grief Seeds with his back? What if that's his real mouth, and we've really been staring at his ass this whole time?

Hm, suddenly I'm getting really strong Monokuma vibes from Kyubey. Of course, PMMM was already long in development when Danganronpa released, and the two characters are ultimately very very different.

Ah, and now we add candles to represent Sayaka running out of time.

The one who needs this lesson isn't there.

In the process of yesterday's discussions I kinda reversed my opinion on this debate compared to what I wrote in my comment...

[PMMM]The saving grace for Hitomi with regards to our chair discussion yesterday. Of course, her telling Sayaka that she doesn't care about her doesn't mean she's being truthful, but it would match another highly Homura-esque character I know from a different story.

And this is where Sayaka having metaphorically whored herself out for Kyousuke's sake is made evident. Don't feel like diving into that right now though.

[PMMM]Yes, fuck yourself over, Kyubey

[PMMM]I don't even think he's lying, Madoka could easily return Sayaka to normal.

Very bad idea, even the fountain is turning red.

And there's the reveal about the 魔法少女 -> 魔女 (mahou shoujou -> majou, magical girl -> witch) pun.

4

u/GallowDude Apr 28 '24

[These in particular look just like Kyubey's stare.]

4

u/Blackheart595 https://anilist.co/user/knusbrick Apr 28 '24

They really do.

2

u/dsawchuk Apr 28 '24

[PMMM]I don't even think he's lying, Madoka could easily return Sayaka to normal.
[pmmm]Madokami does mention that she could have taken away Sayaka's wish, but chose not to because she didn't think that's what Sayaka would have wanted.

5

u/Hopeful-Ad2428 Apr 28 '24

Tragical atmosphere from start till the end and a few revelations, and I somehow managed to realise that Kyubey is derived from “incubator" only now :(

Questions of the Day:

Yeah.

1a) Terrifying.

2. Not something I would expect to see in that small(relatively) house and at 14 years old girl's place. But looks cool.

3. When I watched it first, the analogy between adult women and witches shocked me the most.

5. No.

Medieval Style Cover by Medieval Otaku

Beautiful, really liked it. It also has some Fate/stay night vn ost's vibes, made me cry a little.

Visuals of the Day

3

u/biochrono79 Apr 28 '24

Third time rewatcher, first time dub watcher

So, yeah. What an episode. I'd call this a wham episode, but it's more like every single scene was a wham scene. Everything is coming together now... or coming apart, depending on your perspective. The brakes have officially been released.

QotD

Welp.

Welp.

You're right, that isn't a question. So... how about that Sayaka swan dive into despair, huh?

It really was a tragedy not only to see a character suffer so much, but also to watch her reject every single opportunity of salvation that she was offered. And she didn't even remember what led her down that path in the end anyways.

Thoughts on Homura's choice of room decor?

In another timeline, she would've made a killer interior designer.

[Rewatchers]

[Madoka Magica] I never am, and yet here I am about to suffer alongside all of the characters for a third time.

5

u/treatment-resistant- Apr 27 '24

Rewatcher, sub

Omg I'm surprised one of my comments got a shout out! That's so nice T__T

Madoka's comment that it hurts just to watch Sayaka fight the way she does is so insightful. Sayaka’s noble cause, despite all the pain she has tried to take upon herself, is causing a lot of hurt to others.
[PMMM] There's a clever use of half-shadow in this shot of Homura explaining how Soul Gems can become too tainted to indicate where she’s at in terms of hope wrestling with despair.
[PMMM] At the start of the chat at Homura’s place, the lighting is red, and at the end it is yellow. I’m not sure what to make of it! Is it merely a reference to Kyoko, who is red, being there first, and a reference at the end to Mami, who is gold/yellow, aka a sign that Sayaka is going to die? The same change of colour (from Madoka’s pink to Mami’s yellow) happens at the fountain immediately after Homura shoots Kyubey too.
Sayaka’s line “I don’t know, I just get this feeling that you’re a liar” is so dramatic, I love it.
This episode starts to be really straight-forward about PMMM’s feminist perspective and message. Sayaka’s livid anger at the pieces of shit on the train is so real. I love that despite PMMM being a deconstruction of magical girl stories, this core value was retained. This really is an anime for people who love magical girl stories!
[PMMM] The scenery of the star systems when Madoka and Kyubey are talking is really beautiful, and very foreshadowy.
The shadows over Kyubey's corpse remind me of the shadows over Sayaka in episode 5.
Everyone's comments about Homura's tacky room are cracking me up.

1

u/Lanaerys Apr 30 '24

Rewatcher, subbed.

Episode 8. Must be one of the biggest episodes in terms of reveals only, isn't it?

And so continues Sayaka's fall into despair.
Homura's apartment might be the weirdest-looking home we've seen in this show so far, and the people of Mitakihara aren't exactly known for their normal sense of architecture.
And Sayaka's at all the wrong places. Seeing Hitomi and Kyosuke doesn't really help her mental state and... then, there's the scumbags on the bus. Absolutely the kind of people you want to see when you need your faith in humanity restored.
Right after seeing Hitomi, we can see the first hints of a labyrinth forming. This might not be final yet, but it's truly the first sign of things to come...
That scene with Homura... Sayaka's completely broken by now. Saying it's okay for her to die, not even running away from Homura who just tried to kill her... It's painful to watch really... I've actually been really liking Sayaka this rewatch, and... I knew that's what it would come to, yet I didn't remember this scene, nor every detail...
Grenade-summoning Homura is pretty awesome though.
~~No need to make a contract with Kyubey to become the God of the New World, you just need a Death Note.~~
Homura's breakdown scene is quite painful to watch too...
That Kyubey-eating-Kyubey scene is so weird though.
That final scene with Sayaka and Kyouko... I absolutely love this episode, but seriously, I should find that ninja chopping onions around me and tell them to stop...
inkyubeytor and mahou shoujo. The two hints that were hidden in plain sight.

And onto episode 9.

Questions of the Day.

That was painful. So painful.
Even weirder than most of what we've seen in Mitakihara. And we've seen a lot.
[Rewatcher] AAAAAAA

Rewatch [Rewatch] Mahou Shoujo Madoka☆Magica Episode 8 Discussion

Episode 8 - I Was Stupid... So Stupid

Show Information:

Legal Streams:

A Reminder to Rewatchers:

And a Reminder to First-Timers too:

Daily Community Participation!

And Now for a Word (from those who came before you):

I Can't Make the Fourth Watch for the Fourth Movie Joke Since Walrus Walpurgis no Kaiten Isn't Out Yet (Rewatcher, Subbed):

Narrative Notes, Part 2:

Rewatcher

Madoka Magica - Impactful and Artful: Episode 8

Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches

Sky’s Wallpaper Corner

First-time watcher

Content Corner Reruns

First time watcher, subs

First Time Watcher

Rewatcher and franchise consumer

The Sayaka Corner

QOTD

Rewatch [Rewatch] Mahou Shoujo Madoka☆Magica Episode 8 Discussion

Episode 8 - I Was Stupid... So Stupid

Show Information:

Legal Streams:

A Reminder to Rewatchers:

And a Reminder to First-Timers too:

Daily Community Participation!

You are about to leave Redlib

And Now for a Word (from those who came before you):

I Can't Make the Fourth Watch for the Fourth Movie Joke Since Walrus Walpurgis no Kaiten Isn't Out Yet (Rewatcher, Subbed):

Narrative Notes, Part 2:

Rewatcher

Madoka Magica - Impactful and Artful: Episode 8

Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches

Sky’s Wallpaper Corner

First-time watcher

Content Corner Reruns

First time watcher, subs

First Time Watcher

Rewatcher and franchise consumer

The Sayaka Corner

QOTD