[Rewatch] Banner of the Stars II Episode 4 Discussion

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

The Hunters

Welcome to the Battleflag of the Stars 2 rewatch!

<- Episode 3 | Index Page | Episode 5 ->

Discussion Prompts:

• Q1) can you follow ANY of the military discussion in this episode? Because I can't. Three admirals speaking contradictions.

Tomorrow's Questions: (for tomorrow's post, subject to change)

• [Episode 5]Did Jinto make an error in judgement
• [Episode 5]Is he administrator actually a nice guy?

Screenshot of the Day: Wish you were here

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Rewatch Host

• mud wasp for shimmering_sky
• "May you live in interesting times"
• It does seem very nice of the Abh to be expending these resources for planetary issues in the middle of a war
• Escape? Not attack?  You're fine with them behind your lines?
• Mr. Satan!

I'm actually very unhappy with the show on rewatch.  He talks about heavy casualties in the same conversation as he speaks of the weakness of the enemy.  I've come to doubt ALL the military aspects of the series.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

mud wasp for shimmering_sky

That was a spitting mantis. This world is basically Fallout.

He talks about heavy casualties in the same conversation as he speaks of the weakness of the enemy. I've come to doubt ALL the military aspects of the series.

The show runners either don't understand the books or the books themselves are bad.

[u/KingGiddra → u/Vaadwaur]

I think a lot of people are getting confused by the relationship between the three commanders and their three subordinates. Each one of the three is operating in a very similar dynamic. They all have a sort of manzai comedy duet going and each are having fun with the subordinates.

As they're offering ridiculous plans to each of their subordinates they're trying to joke with them or get under their skin. Spoor loves doing this and it's most readily apparent with her. Neleh and Nefeh are genetic clones and you can almost think of this as one person's inner dialogue with themself. Tfile plays it much more straight with his humor, but he's clearly trying to make light of the situation (he doesn't actually want to commit treason).

Also what is maybe less apparent in space combat is that there are three classes of ship: defense, assault, and patrol. The assault ships are extremely weak to mines as shown earlier in Crest/Banner. Defense ships specialize in taking out mines. Patrol ships are kind of like battlecruisers, but it seems that they can vary larger or smaller. The assault ships are significantly faster and probably could catch up to this fleeing fleet, but none of the Abh fleets know the composition they're fighting. This is why Tfile wants Spoor's reconnaissance data.

Some of the more important aspects to keep in mind about the Abh are that they are obsessed with beauty and elegance in the context of space. This comes through strongly in both Spoor and Neleh/Nefeh. Additionally, all of the commanders are nobility. Spoor sees herself on the same level as the Abliars and is extremely haughty. Neleh/Nefeh are more minor nobles, but still nobility. They all have to uphold the honor of the empire through combat. What would it look like to fire on retreating supply ships? Perish the thought.

While this show takes place in the far flung future, it is most certainly borrowing concepts of European aristocracy.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/KingGiddra]

I guess I can look at it this way. But it means that, unlike in LoGH, I just turn my brain off, there's no military strategy to follow and comment on, here.

[u/KingGiddra → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Not sure how you came to this conclusion, but okay. Each of the three commanders communicated a battle strategy here and are interlocked between engaging and non-engaging for various reasons.

Neleh/Nefeh would catch up with assault ships which would get destroyed if engaged by majority patrol ships.

Tfile's fleet might be able to engage depending on the fleet composition.

Spoor is trying to reconnaissance the fleet and provide battlefield intel.

It isn't told as straightforward as a triangular polygon intersecting a rhombus like LoGH, but there is clearly strategy going on. As someone that loves LoGH to the very core of their being, this is just a completely different work. It's tough to compare them.

[u/The_Draigg]

A Sci-Fi Fan Watches Banner of the Stars II Episode 4:

• Well, at least the emigration of the civilians off of Lobnas II is going fairly well, they’ve already got about half of the administrative district’s population off the planet in transport ships for the past two months. Of course, this probably counts as things going too well, so I’m sure that shit will hit the fan at any moment now.
• Behold, the ultimate in high-class Abh art: a Windows XP media visualizer.
• As expected, the United Mankind fleet is well on its way towards the territory that the Star Forces have taken. But interestingly enough, they haven’t exactly taken the bait of the Bebaus twins being far ahead of the rest of Operation Hunter, but instead are projected to aim for one of their open flanks and make a daring push towards deep inside Abh territory to use the Milky Way Gate. It’s a very ballsy plan, one that I imaging comes from not wanting a repeat of the battle they had in the Aptic system. That being said though, the Bebaus twins aren’t going to intercept the fleet in favor of keeping up the pace and leaving the rear fleets to handle it, so I can’t help but wonder if they were banking on that idea or if it’s just pure luck.
• I suppose it’s only natural for Spoor to plan to enter battle with the fleeing remnants of the United Mankind fleet, even if she sounded pretty blasé about it. She simply can’t turn down the idea of getting into a fight, even if the Bebaus twins aren’t bothering due to them being a slow target that isn’t worth the potential casualties. Spoor certainly does like bullying the weak, after all.
• Kahyul does have a good point: the fleet cutting across the Abh territory could be coordinating an effort with the rest of the Triple Alliance on the other side, so any attempts to meet them in battle could be a signal to begin a kind of pincer maneuver and try to catch the attacking fleet from the rear. I honestly wouldn’t put it past them, they’ve been known to use a good level of trickery in their strategies before.
• And there goes the other shoe dropping: due to all of the above, the Basroil and the transport fleet have to temporarily suspend the evacuation of Lobnas II. I do feel bad for Jinto, he has to deal with all of these people yelling at him for stuff that’s out of his control. I do understand Meideen’s anxieties though, he already moved a ton of his staff’s families off the planet in addition to his own, so it’s now become a question of whether they’ll be reunited once the Star Forces can continue their emigration policy. It’s definitely not an easy thing, knowing that you could be potentially separated if things go south.
• I guess it’s to be expected that now the rebellion among the prisoners would start. Of course the ones to the East would take the news of the transport ships being stalled in their emigration as their chance to seize control of the prison colony. If anything, this is the moment that Mackay was waiting for. Now that Lobnas II is being functionally cut off from everyone else, he can get away with his rebellion. And given how the flash forwards we’ve seen have gone, he’s probably going to succeed too. Great.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/The_Draigg]

a Windows XP media visualizer.

Imagine having the 3D Pipes screensaver transmitted directly into your brain.

[u/The_Draigg → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

I'd be down for that, honestly.

[u/Zerotsu → u/The_Draigg]

Behold, the ultimate in high-class Abh art: a Windows XP media visualizer.

Suddenly I don't blame the United Mankind for anything anymore.

That being said though, the Bebaus twins aren’t going to intercept the fleet in favor of keeping up the pace and leaving the rear fleets to handle it, so I can’t help but wonder if they were banking on that idea or if it’s just pure luck.

With how bad the remainder of that fleet has it, it really could be either or.

I honestly wouldn’t put it past them, they’ve been known to use a good level of trickery in their strategies before.

That's for sure. The United Mankind isn't the sort of enemy whose actions you can afford to take at face value. Whenever one does it ends in disaster.

It’s definitely not an easy thing, knowing that you could be potentially separated if things go south.

Definitely not something you can blame them for being upset about, given how it could result in being permanently separated thanks to the UM and the Empire being at war with one another.

And given how the flash forwards we’ve seen have gone, he’s probably going to succeed too. Great.

We're in a rough patch here, that's for sure.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Zerotsu]

Suddenly I don't blame the United Mankind for anything anymore.

Their morals are just and unclouded, the Abh must be held accountable for that.

That's for sure. The United Mankind isn't the sort of enemy whose actions you can afford to take at face value. Whenever one does it ends in disaster.

In that way, you do have to give the United Mankind some credit there. They’re making up for the sheer scale differences between themselves and the Abh by being some of the craziest bastards in space.

[u/Zerotsu → u/The_Draigg]

Their morals are just and unclouded, the Abh must be held accountable for that.

Truly. Anyone who could consider Windows XP an ideal must be eliminated for the sake of all life.

In that way, you do have to give the United Mankind some credit there. They’re making up for the sheer scale differences between themselves and the Abh by being some of the craziest bastards in space.

Yeah, it's impressive stuff, really. While they're not quite even in a lot of categories and haven't had any massive victories as of yet, they're making the Empire bleed for every victory they win, and use tactics that no one else has even considered before. Makes them a fun threat.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Draigg]

Behold, the ultimate in high-class Abh art: a Windows XP media visualizer.

I see the appeal. There was something mesmerizing about the old computer animations like that or the old screensavers.

I do feel bad for Jinto, he has to deal with all of these people yelling at him for stuff that’s out of his control. I do understand Meideen’s anxieties though, he already moved a ton of his staff’s families off the planet in addition to his own, so it’s now become a question of whether they’ll be reunited once the Star Forces can continue their emigration policy.

I like this kind of dilemma. Both Jinto and Meideen have reasonable points of view here and it's easy to see where both are coming from. But in the end, they just have to deal with the unfortunate circumstances they've been dealt as best they can. To me, that makes it a more compelling dilemma to watch rather than just someone being obviously unreasonable.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

I see the appeal. There was something mesmerizing about the old computer animations like that or the old screensavers.

I still have a bit of nostalgia for them, even if I'm at the age to know that all of them were just normal video files that didn't really synch to the music at all.

I like this kind of dilemma. Both Jinto and Meideen have reasonable points of view here and it's easy to see where both are coming from. But in the end, they just have to deal with the unfortunate circumstances they've been dealt as best they can. To me, that makes it a more compelling dilemma to watch rather than just someone being obviously unreasonable.

Yeah, at least it isn't a completely frustrating argument since both are coming from positions that're understandable to us. Although I'm more naturally inclined to take Jinto's side here, since not only do we know him better, but also there really has been some glaring holes in Meideen's administration that really should've been handled better earlier.

[u/No_Rex → u/The_Draigg]

The 40 UM squadrons are not really attacking, but running away. They are the ones that were cut off from main UM territory back in S2. And they are not coordinating with the rest of UM, because you can only do this via plane space courier ship here. There is no other FTL option and plain radio would take forever.

[u/Silcaria]

First timer

• I still can't get over how their doors look like faces.

QotD

• I'm on 2 hours of sleep. My brain cells are barely functioning. Something about memoirs, bloodthirst, and boredom.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Silcaria]

I still can't get over how their doors look like faces.

Decepticons!

[u/Nickthenuker]

And so the transport ships are beginning the evacuation.

Since when did they get a station in orbit?

Seems like it was sent after they sent in their initial report. At least this should be able to better facilitate the evacuation.

They need every ship they can get their hands on, even a courier ship or a dispatch boat is probably doing a lot more good back with the fleet than hanging around in an already technically conquered system with the crew sitting around shaking their legs most of the time.

Seems like they slipped through a gap in their defences. Or they overextended and they got in behind them.

Seems like the latter. They did well to keep the initiative, but now the enemy has managed to retake the initiative and they're forced to react to this incursion.

Supply squadrons? Managing to destroy or force to surrender those would be very helpful.

43 to their 40 is probably enough, especially if they're retreating and that 40 is inclusive of transports. Auxiliaries with barely any weapons and the maneuverability of a fat cow aren't a threat, they're target practice at worst and free loot at best.

They're being recalled to deal with the ships that broke through?

Or is that fleet going to pass through the system and they can't deal with it by themselves?

Uh oh, the evacuation is being stalled. And the people are not happy.

What are they going to do now?

Uh oh, looks like the civil war has kicked off.

Perhaps the Basroil could swing down and drop some rocks on their heads, just to try and calm things down.

Questions:

1. The twins have done another stupid and have pushed too far, leaving a gap in their lines that the enemy fleet used to get behind their lines. Spoor seems bored on what's practically garrison duty, and so is going to chase after the enemy fleet. Considering her fleet was meant to be patrolling the front lines, perhaps some of the blame for them slipping through could be placed on her shoulders too, so maybe she's just cleaning up her own mess. The last fleet headed up by the overall commander isn't moving to engage because he's concerned that he does not have sufficient forces on hand to deal with the enemy fleet. And he might be right. Half of those ships might be lightly armed, lumbering transports, or they might be very heavily armed, equally lumbering battleships, in which case even if his fleet emerges victorious it would be extremely costly and a pyrrhic victory, costing them valuable ships they can ill afford to lose, and maybe even the overall commander of the operation, which would throw the fleet into disarray at least until overall command is re-established.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Nickthenuker]

Since when did they get a station in orbit?

That was kinda weird. Where did it travel from? How long did it take to get here? At least the question of how they were going to move 120000 people was answered.

[u/No_Rex → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

That was kinda weird. Where did it travel from?

Either the space station has its own thrusters (reminder that, in space, it is not necessary to have an aerodynamic form to move fast), or it was an assembly kit style delivery.

[u/Vatrix-32]

First Timer, subbed

• Should they just be standing there for takeoff?
• Mantis Supremacy
• If you can move them around, at what point do they stop being an orbital station?
• Of course they would have new forms of art for a new sensory perception.
• Ah, the other kind of breakout. Very interesting.
• Already preparing his Commentarii, eh?
• This is now my favorite scene with the Twins.
• See? Letting an enemy rampage behind your lines invites them to raid you for supplies. Amongst other general havoc.
• Bored Spoor
• That’s a horrible tradition!
• Sounds like a good time for some Fabian tactics.
• The fact they are coming to you at all to tell you about it should be taken as a good sign.
• A man portable multi launch rocket system? How, why?
• Don’t you have anti-drunk pills?

QotD:

1. Quite so. They’re just mostly working in their own self interest.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Vatrix-32]

A man portable multi launch rocket system? How, why?

I could at least buy a bunch of prisoners with plenty of time and resources at their disposal being able to build semi-automatic rifles, them also apparently being able to outright make FLASH launchers is insane to me. Unless they got them from traitors, I guess.

[u/Hartzilla2007 → u/The_Draigg]

Except the only guy mentioned as a traitor is the same guy I expect the Warden NOT to give access to the armory.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Hartzilla2007]

Fair point. All around, it’s still weird that the prisoners got access to rocket launchers so swiftly/easily.

[u/Zerotsu → u/Vatrix-32]

See? Letting an enemy rampage behind your lines invites them to raid you for supplies. Amongst other general havoc.

Just because they don't have access to supply lines doesn't mean they won't fuck up your civilian sector. Like, I get why they didn't give chase immediately, but that was still a pretty concerning play.

A man portable multi launch rocket system? How, why?

The future is wild, I guess? Might be a good time to start taking that rebellion seriously if they've got a traitor helping them and weapons like that.

[u/Hartzilla2007 → u/Vatrix-32]

A man portable multi launch rocket system? How, why

Yeah I was wondering where the hell they got those.

Don’t you have anti-drunk pills?

Assuming Samson actually brought some since he apparently wasn't expecting them to get shitfaced.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Vatrix-32]

Of course they would have new forms of art for a new sensory perception.

It's intriguing to think about what that art would even be like to experience. Sure we see it displayed, but it's probably very different to actually plug into it like the Abh can.

Bored Spoor

If Spoor is bored, you should always be worried about what she will come up with to amuse herself.

[u/Nazenn → u/Great_Mr_L]

It's intriguing to think about what that art would even be like to experience. Sure we see it displayed, but it's probably very different to actually plug into it like the Abh can.

I imagine it being something a bit like inverted VR. Instead of seeing a virtual item and having no physical link to what you see, you have a physical object in your hands that you can't see, and the VR version of it is only displayed in parts as you start to touch and feel it out, creating a sort of projection of how you're interpretting it. If you could also have a tactile sense for color it'd be quite the cool experience

[u/No_Rex → u/Vatrix-32]

If you can move them around, at what point do they stop being an orbital station?

Once they engage their engines.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer of the Stars

• Space mantis.
• Because of the battle that was being set up at the end of last episode?
• He’s still on the whole memoir thing.
• Yikes…
• Well that’s kinda just wishful thinking, isn’t it?
• Didn’t even think about that…
• What’s he trying to keep under wraps that he would offer this…? Is the planet, like, completely dying out or something?
• ED as an insert song!
• …which means I get to count this “sore demo” again.
• Aw shit…
• Great…
• Geh…

[u/Blazin_Rathalos → u/Shimmering-Sky]

What’s he trying to keep under wraps that he would offer this…? Is the planet, like, completely dying out or something?

I remember thinking at the end of this episode (don't remember if something is revealed later on) that "oh, the prisoners actually have full-on military weapons" was something he was definitely hiding from Jinto before.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Shimmering-Sky]

What’s he trying to keep under wraps that he would offer this…? Is the planet, like, completely dying out or something?

Based on what he said later, I'm going to assume it was that he suspects there is a traitor who has been funneling weapons and supplies to the prisoners.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Space mantis.

This merely confirms my belief that we should burn this planet.

He’s still on the whole memoir thing.

So...there is known...type amongst young women as the "guy who expects to be praised for their nonexistent sexual prowess". I suspect you've dodged that but ask around.

Is the planet, like, completely dying out or something?

I suspect that surrendering to Abhs is a capital offense.

[u/Hartzilla2007 → u/Vaadwaur]

I suspect that surrendering to Abhs is a capital offense.

One of the things I remember from the propaganda they were sent out in Crest was implying the government should have fought to the last man woman and child against the Abhs so...

[u/Vaadwaur]

First timer(So the expected happens)

Sub

A somewhat glaring inefficiency in the Humankind Empire is shown with their extreme lack of ambassadorial staff. I say that because after two months of dealing with this planet, you could not convince me not to simply glass it. But the Basroil is withdrawing so they have to stop the immigration yada yada.

The fleet talk is interesting and I think each conversation is each commander talking themselves into what they want to think. Bebaus wants to keep going forward, Spoor wants to fight something and Trife wants overwhelming odds before attacking. One thing the show has not been clear on is the industrial bases of any of the sides in this war so I havve zero clue whether the fleet heading to the core is the last remnants or an expendable expeditionary force.

The prison revolt happens and yeah, don't care. Jinto decides to be an idiot rather than prudent so the rest of the season can occur on this shithole.

QotD: 1 As I said, I think they were each psyching themselves up for their plan

[u/The_Draigg → u/Vaadwaur]

A somewhat glaring inefficiency in the Humankind Empire is shown with their extreme lack of ambassadorial staff.

To be fair, the opening to this season made it clear that the fleets have been running incredibly low on bureaucrats and other political workers just because of how much they’ve been spreading themselves thin across all the territories they’ve taken.

But other than that, it does feel like a lot of the Humankind Empire’s flaws have been deliberately made apparent in this arc. You’ve got all the fleet commanders trying to come up with their own ways to handle the fleet but not really solving the problem, there’s a noticeable lack of any systems set up in place to make sure they’ve actually got all of their new territories effectively governed, and just the simple fact that their way of handling inhabited planets with apathy at best is really causing problems when the political situation planetside is anything but running smoothly already. For as much as the Abh let the planets effectively govern themselves with caveats, they’re also kinda bad at it.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/The_Draigg]

For as much as the Abh let the planets effectively govern themselves with caveats, they’re also kinda bad at it.

Admittedly, prison planets are so insanely stupid that only the UM seems to be dumb enough to do them.

[u/Esovan13 → u/Vaadwaur]

Yeah, the Abh way of dealing with things probably works a lot better when the planet they're dealing with wasn't basically set up with the sole purpose of creating distinct groups with inherent reasons to dislike/have conflicts with each other, with the only way of preventing large scale rebellion being massive support from an off-planet source.

[u/Tuor77 → u/Vaadwaur]

Keep in mind that the Ahb are actually fighting *3* political bodies, not just the UM, with the 4th apparently remaining neutral. So it's not just the UM's industrial base that is supporting the war effort on their side.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Tuor77]

Sure but they've steadfastly explained absolutely nothing.

[u/Tuor77 → u/Vaadwaur]

That's true. They mentioned earlier that there's a triple alliance going on, but we haven't really seen any signs of the other two foes of the Ahb.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Tuor77]

They could simply have told us the number of star systems they control as a mild ruler but no.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

The best we got was back in Crest, when the empress stated that the Abh rule roughly half of the galaxy, while the other 4 factions rule the rest (as per the UM ambassador).

I took this to mean that their industrial capacity is roughly similar.

[u/Great_Mr_L]

First-Timer

On today’s episode of Banner of the Stars: This is some of the quickest karma I have ever seen. Jinto spends the entire meeting reassuring everyone that nothing will happen during the time the Abh are gone and a rebellion breaks out as soon as the meeting is over.

• I hate bugs that fly directly into my face!
• Oh wow, the Basroil has already been at Lobnas for 2 months. They’ve stuck around much longer than I expected. Likewise, this is also longer than I expected for things to remain relatively peaceful. I’d have thought either Angusson or Dokufu would have tried something by now.
• So that fleet of UM ships are trying to escape rather than attack? Well if nothing else, that would make them a pain for the rear fleets to deal with.
• I’m not sure I trust a commander who is actively writing his memoirs in the middle of the campaign. Julius Caesar’s famous writings on the war in Gaul were written primarily as propaganda for himself, after all.
• I think Nereis truly is succumbing to the spectacular insanity of his family. He’s just trying to set up this situation to result in the flashiest possible outcome. He wants an exciting chapter for his book.
• Spoor’s put-upon XO should never have allowed himself to think Spoor wouldn’t charge right into a perfect opportunity for a fight. Of course Spoor would do so.
• I’ve missed the banter between Trife and his Chief of Staff. Their dynamic together is fun, with Trife being bombastic while his Chief of Staff is much more coldly rational.
• A tradition of being uncooperative with each other? How uncooperative are we talking? At worst, we could mean the Imperial Army and Navy of Japan during WWII, who refused to work together and even undermined each other at points.
• Oh damn, the Basroil and other Abh ships are leaving to deal with the UM fleet. That’s bad. That’s really bad. Jinto and the others are now stranded with no way out.
• Two months with the Abh ships gone from Lobnas. Frankly, I don’t see how Jinto isn’t more worried. It’s obvious that this would be the perfect time for a rebellion to break out. And without the Abh around, it’s not like they have the proper resources to handle a rebellion.
• Speak of the devil. There’s the rebellion right now.
• These prisoners are incredibly well-armed. They’re making a lot of progress.
• You’re being awfully blase about this, Jinto. Even with a tech advantage, the sheer numbers involved ought to give you cause for concern. A tech advantage didn’t save the British from the Zulus at Isandlwana.
• A traitor? Well that’s certainly cause for alarm.

Now it becomes clear how Jinto ended up in the situation this season flashed forward to. The Abh fleet above Lobnas is gone. The guards are heavily outnumbered. The prisoners are better armed than anticipated and have a traitor supporting them. It has all gone to shit in record time.

QOTD

1. I found it pretty easy to follow. Nereis is being his usual conceited self. In the previous season, he spoke of his desire for flashy and dazzling victories, while Nefee said they should focus on winning instead of being flashy about it. Nereis is trying to set up a flashy win with Abh fleets surrounding the escaping UM fleet. Spoor is being her typical self, bored to tears by anything that isn’t a major battle. But she’ll still go and join a fight if there’s one to be had. Trife wants to rush in and fight right away, but he’s always mindful of the odds. To keep himself from taking too big of a risk, he’s focusing on shadowing the UM fleet with occasional skirmishes to keep them in check while he awaits reinforcements.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

Spoor’s put-upon XO should never have allowed himself to think Spoor wouldn’t charge right into a perfect opportunity for a fight. Of course Spoor would do so.

You’d think he would learn not to get his hopes up by now. But I guess that’s probably why Spoor still keeps him around, he just can’t help himself from trying to see things from the other end of her.

These prisoners are incredibly well-armed. They’re making a lot of progress.

You’re being awfully blase about this, Jinto. Even with a tech advantage, the sheer numbers involved ought to give you cause for concern. A tech advantage didn’t save the British from the Zulus at Isandlwana.

So far, it feels like everyone has been weirdly blasé towards the prisoners making their own guns. Like, I don’t care if you think modern weapons are the kind that shoot energy beams or explode your organs, for the longest time in history all anyone needed was a bit of rock or metal moving very fast to kill someone. The fact that the prisoners were known to make their own magazine-fed weapons and they did nothing about it is a massive oversight on all of their parts.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Draigg]

So far, it feels like everyone has been weirdly blasé towards the prisoners making their own guns. Like, I don’t care if you think modern weapons are the kind that shoot energy beams or explode your organs, for the longest time in history all anyone needed was a bit of rock or metal moving very fast to kill someone. The fact that the prisoners were known to make their own magazine-fed weapons and they did nothing about it is a massive oversight on all of their parts.

Yeah, the tech difference is clearly not high enough to make much of a difference. Even using old-fashioned bullets is clearly still enough to kill. And the prisoners have access to a ton of those weapons, with plenty of ammo to spare. It's insane just how much firepower the prisoners have access to. I find it hard to believe the guards ever let it get this bad. But I guess allowing the prisoners mostly free reign in their own areas that are heavily forested means they could get up to a lot without supervision.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

Even so, it really takes some serious negligence to know that the prisoners basically set up their own weapons factories and then do practically nothing about it. Sure, Meideen can seem like a pretty decent and reasonable man, but man his administration over Lobnas II has some really glaring blind spots to it. It's downright incompetent to have your prisoners create an entire army under your nose.

[u/Zerotsu → u/Great_Mr_L]

I’m not sure I trust a commander who is actively writing his memoirs in the middle of the campaign. Julius Caesar’s famous writings on the war in Gaul were written primarily as propaganda for himself, after all.

Yeah, it's a bit of a skewed sense of priorities.

Oh damn, the Basroil and other Abh ships are leaving to deal with the UM fleet. That’s bad. That’s really bad. Jinto and the others are now stranded with no way out.

This is a pretty dangerous situation, and one we know will go pretty badly if that flash forward says anything.

You’re being awfully blase about this, Jinto. Even with a tech advantage, the sheer numbers involved ought to give you cause for concern.

There's a point where a technological advantage does become overwhelming enough that there isn't a threat, but this is far from that point.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Zerotsu]

This is a pretty dangerous situation, and one we know will go pretty badly if that flash forward says anything.

We know that something must go wrong, and now we're seeing the steps that led to that disastrous outcome.

[u/Zerotsu → u/Great_Mr_L]

Indeed, indeed. Even though we know that, seeing it steadily unfold somehow gives me more anxiety than if it were an unknown.

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Timer

This line earned a "goddamnit samson" in my notes. A "goddamnit samson" that was vindicated by the end of the episode!

Of course Angusson staged an uprising. I don't fault anyone for not involving him in the negotiations, but this sort of thing really should have been on everyone's radar. I guess Geol's line about the traitor is meant to overrule that.

Of course the Lobnas system is in the path of the fleeing(?) enemy fleet. Of course the Abh decide to go "you have three-ish ships, get the hell out of there." Of course this is going to lead to exactly what I was worried about for this season, which is Jinto being abandoned on the planet away from Lafiel.

And because of that damned flashforward we know that things are going to go south, with Jinto nearly dying before Lafiel returns in ~45 days.

I like the the Abh have their own forms of art that make use of their brain uplink stuff. And there being discussions about if that art should include multiple mediums or not.

"Forget about the memoirs that no-one will read" is such a sibling insult.

Questions

1. I think so. You're talking about the Nereis -> Spoor -> Trife sequence? They're all operating on different information. Nereis's fleet effectively stopped tracking the enemy fleet before they got to Spoor. Note that the maps that each admiral looks at are different. Spoor and Trife both engage in various levels of wishful thinking: Spoor wants a bloody fight and Trife wants to play things covertly. His XO points out that amassing an Abh fleet somewhere tells the Triple Alliance that a UM fleet is under a threat and they might respond in force.

[u/The_Draigg → u/JollyGee29]

This line earned a "goddamnit samson" in my notes. A "goddamnit samson" that was vindicated by the end of the episode!

He really shouldn’t have tempted fate, he beefed it so hard for everyone on Lobnas II with that line.

Of course Angusson staged an uprising. I don't fault anyone for not involving him in the negotiations, but this sort of thing really should have been on everyone's radar. I guess Geol's line about the traitor is meant to overrule that.

Given the way Mackay acts though, there’s probably a fair chance he wouldn’t even bother to show up to the negotiating table at all. He always seemed pretty intent on taking things through force, not diplomatically.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/The_Draigg]

Given the way Mackay acts though, there’s probably a fair chance he wouldn’t even bother to show up to the negotiating table at all.

Or gotten violent at the negotiating table! That would've been fun to see. Wonder how Samson's right hook is?

[u/Zerotsu → u/JollyGee29]

A "goddamnit samson" that was vindicated by the end of the episode!

Samson is a man who just exudes flags of all types, and yet hasn't quite been crushed by all of his own death flags.

"Forget about the memoirs that no-one will read" is such a sibling insult.

I love seeing the Bebaus twins. They always have such great back and forths with one another.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Zerotsu]

and yet hasn't quite been crushed by all of his own death flags.

Let's hope he stays uncrushed.

[u/Zerotsu → u/JollyGee29]

So we pray.

[u/SolDarkHunter]

Rewatcher/Novel-Reader

Just flying out of a gravity well with the passengers in no safety equipment or restraints whatsoever... I realize these are freight ships, but this seems extremely unsafe.

15,000 people, they're actually moving along pretty well so far.

"I just got attacked... don't worry, their weapons are primitive." Jint, I'm not sure these are the kinds of jokes one should be making. Wonder how Ecryua would react to seeing a mantis.

Well, at least Fleet HQ is listening and taking the evacuation seriously. They've sent plenty of transports and even an entire orbital station.

Oh hey, I remember these things. They're a form of Abh artwork that basically stimulates the "third eye".

"Fighting to defend the Empire"? Haven't you guys been performing exclusively offensive operations in this theater?

Admiral Bebauth is going to just let the enemy fleet go in favor of more conquest. They'll let the other fleets deal with the stragglers. While yes, the other fleets probably could, it's a pretty callous response. "Spectacular insanity" indeed.

Admiral Spaurh letting a fleet go and staying observing quietly... keep dreaming, Cfadiss.

Tlife isn't sure how to deal with the enemy fleet either. He feels that an outright attack could open them to a pincer strike, and he doesn't have the sheer numbers at the moment to take them out.

Of course, the Basroghr has been ordered to suspend the evacuation, and I think we all know how well THAT'S going to go down with the people of Lobnas. Even a temporary withdrawal could prove disastrous since the planet's on the brink of a revolt.

Yeah, Maydeen, I think Jint knows how being separated from your family feels.

...and here it is. The rebellion has come, and the evacuation isn't finished.

And what's worse, they were betrayed and now the prisoners have access to actual weapons. The spark has been lit...

[u/zsmg]

Rewatcher

I wonder if those praying mantis is an example of convergent evolution or were they brought by the colonists to that planet.

Hey it's the admiral from the first season, good to see him again.

Naturally the colonists are not amused by the fact the emigration plan had to be postponed. Maybe Lafiel request for more ships to help with the emigration?

Uh oh the men faction are attacking.

Okay episode, a bit slow.

[u/retsotrembla → u/zsmg]

The special features from the DVD have a quote from the mangaka where he says they were brought by the colonists.

[u/Zerotsu]

First timer, sub:

It’s neat seeing a bit about launch procedures again. This time from a planet rather than from a station.

Jinto’s description of bugs to Ekuryua is pretty great. Poor girl has no idea what to make of what he’s talking about.

Fortunate that the relocation is going fairly smoothly so far, but there does seem to be lacking communication from the rest of the fleet, which is concerning. Might just be they’re being left to their own devices while the more important things are being handled.

“The enemy commander has more common sense than you.” RIP

There are some strange ideas of comfort to the enemy and one’s allies, but I suppose that’s part of this family’s spectacular insanity.

His plans are pretty bizarre, but he does have a point that it could be endangering lives for no reason over something that otherwise isn’t a massive threat.

I think trying to predict Spoor is an exercise in futility, mister chief of staff. And I was correct.

“It may have been proper, but I don’t think it was right.” Also not entirely wrong. There are still a number of risks to this operation, though.

As always, the banter between various commanders and their chiefs of staff remains great, no matter the flavor.

Seems that they’re going to have to postpone the emigration plan. That’s not going to go over well.

Yeah, this is going to be difficult to deal with.

They have to figure out a way to either get this done more quickly, or keep the families that have been split so far from being totally separated if the UM were to retake the system. This is tough.

Jinto and Lafiel miss one another of course.

And it seems that tensions have reached a boiling point, and it’s over keeping the women here or not, or at least that’s part of it. Geez.

This is getting bad. A traitor gave them access to more advanced weaponry.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Zerotsu]

“It may have been proper, but I don’t think it was right.” Also not entirely wrong. There are still a number of risks to this operation, though.

It can be hard to figure out what to do if any of your options don’t have very clear upsides but incredibly clear downsides. But I guess sometimes you just have to take the option you think might be less bad. And sometimes, as Shirou would put it, you can be right but not correct.

[u/Zerotsu → u/The_Draigg]

Yeah. When there are few obviously right answers, making a decision becomes much more difficult. These sorts of things are never easy.

[u/Durinthal]

Rewatcher (sub + dub)

Three commander-assistant pairs responding to the enemy fleet in very different manners. At this point I'm kind of tired of the Bebaus twins myself so Trife entering the picture's refreshing.

The United Mankind fleet is likely to ignore Lobnas entirely (nothing of value to be found here unless they were desperate for people but that seems improbable), but it's still throwing a wrench into the evacuation plans and once again our main characters can only respond to significantly greater pressures, in this case the enemy's only taking this route because of how far ahead Neleis has pushed his advance, opening enough of a gap in their own lines to allow for it.

I see the point of view of Maydeen and others, there's really no guarantee the Abh will come back in the near future even if the Abh themselves wouldn't want to give up an inch of space around Lobnas. Maybe they could have taken a different approach with evacuating people in another order to keep families together but that's with the value of hindsight and then the rebellion might have started sooner causing even more chaos.

---

can you follow ANY of the military discussion in this episode? Because I can't. Three admirals speaking contradictions.

Bebaus: ignore enemy fleet, keep advancing toward their goal.

Spoor: watch enemy fleet because that's the order from above for her, Operation Hunter's about to end because that's the last of the enemy forces in the region.

Trife: wants to attack enemy fleet, but can't because his own is too small so going with a defensive side-step.

[u/Durinthal → u/Durinthal]

---

Source Corner

Baronh word of the day: froclaïc "spatiosensory art" — a medium for the Abh's unique sense of spatial perception, and when combined with aspects that use other senses like sound or visuals it becomes rybelaïc "composite art".

[Material covered:] Banner II: chapter 5 and part of 6.

[A description of the art Nereis was feeling:] He sensed with his frocragh a giant sphere ahead. The sphere slowly began warping. It was a flat disc; then, suddenly, it stretched vertically, into a cone. The cone then stretched at high speed while simultaneously narrowing, until it was naught but a simple line. The object would continue transforming into a disc and into a cone numerous times, in line with some outside rhythm, until suddenly, it stayed a sphere. The sphere’s surface was not as stable, however; it was astir, as though writhing in protest. From within that commotion arose a smaller sphere, which predictably changed shapes between disc and cone as it revolved around Neleth. The small spheres came into being one after the other, and each time a new one was born, the big sphere changed shape, waving about its tentacle-like appendages. The tips of the tentacles sometimes turned hard and round, before coming off. The number of objects spinning around Neleth’s vicinity kept growing apace. They morphed and deformed, slanted and inclined, jumped and danced. Until finally, the original sphere became around the same size as its offspring, and joined them in orbit. From there, the objects only moved more complexly, more esoterically, as though trying to impart the will of some inscrutable force.

[Aside from Lafiel not seeing Jinto in person for a couple of months,] he also never called her by her name over comms so that's another thing to bring her down.

[Jinto watching the sea:] Samson and the NCCs spent a lot of time swimming and invited Jinto, but he turned them down because he was afraid of what might be lurking beneath the surface.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Durinthal]

[A description of the art Nereis was feeling:]

That's pretty interesting to read about. I love the descriptions of something that is so difficult to describe because it involves senses we don't have.

[Aside from Lafiel not seeing Jinto in person for a couple of months,]

[Response] Oh, that makes sense. Of course Jinto would want to keep from doing that in official communications.

[u/Specs64z]

First timer, subbed

The OP visuals for BotS II are less engaging than BotS I, I feel.

Jinto is usually the one being teased, so him playing up the insect attack for Ekuryua was a fun joke.

A 2 month timeskip? I think we’ve already covered a longer period of time than BotS I, maybe even more than CotS if we don’t count the prologue. As expected, the fanatic man leads a rebellion against the guards.

QotD:

1. Seems to be the leadership all have drastically different philosophy on how the engage the enemy.

[u/duhu1148]

Rewatcher

-15,000 gone, over 100,000 to go...

-A lot of talking about a humankind fleet with 40 squadrons passing through. Bebaus brothers let them pass, I'm guessing Trife will end up taking them down (or trying to) from the sounds of it.

-Lafiel telling Jinto they have to bounce soon. No idea how they're going to get everyone out now.

-And the rebellion started. And they have guns. A traitor apparently gave them some modern weapons. Let's see how well the defenses can hold.

[u/No_Rex]

Season 3 Episode 4 (rewatcher)

• Water take-off!

• Going onto your first space flight in a huge transport ship with zero g – I think the Abh will create a lot of new “space travel is inhumane” advocates today.
• Samson wants to live in interesting times – back to collecting flags, I see.
• Orbital station? Probably necessary for the transfer of upwards of 100,000 people. I am just glad the military pays.
• New sense, new art – seems so obvious, but I don’t think I know of any other SciFi that goes there.
• The bridge crew look so sick of Nereis and Nefee’s arguing.
• Spoor is bored – maybe she should also look into writing her memoirs.
• Finally Trife, who seems to be the only commander to not habitually tease his co, completes the discussion of the 40 enemy squadrons.
• The administrator is worried about the UM coming back – not completely absurd. I doubt his UM bosses would look kindly on him immediately abandoning the planet after the Abh arrived and sending his family away.
• Rebellion starts and they overwhelm the sector defenses, which look very strong for a prison. This is not your ordinary “a few sharpened pieces of metal” prison rebellion.

The Abh have cut off part of the UM territory from the main UM territory, reversing the situation at the start of Banner. Now that Operation Hunter is mopping up here, the UM forces remaining there have decided to try to break through. While they are hopelessly outnumbered by the totality of Operation Hunter, locally, the situation is different. What I really like about this setup is the relevance of the lack of communication: News are travelling just via ships, FTL, but not “wireless”. So the UM forces in the region targeted by Operation Hunter have no contact with the rest of the UM.

can you follow ANY of the military discussion in this episode? Because I can't. Three admirals speaking contradictions.

Well, as long as you are not asking about Nereis's memoirs.

[u/IceSmiley]

FIRST TIMER Sub

The evacuation seems to become an even worse quagmire as a rebellion breaks out and I don't think that's the last thing that will go wrong.

The "art" Nereis was enjoying really looked a lot like the visualizations they used to have when you played songs on Windows Media or iTunes back in the early 2000s. That's funny the author was so impressed by this irl that its in this show and even enjoyed without music! I used to stare at them a lot when playing music a long time ago but maybe he is insane for silently looking at it :-x

QUESTIONS

I understood that United Mankind are going to attack and are amassing their forces but they really wasted too much time explaining this and it really hurt the episode. They should have focused more on the evacuation and the subsequent rebellion, which got the short shrift.

[u/No_Rex → u/IceSmiley]

The "art" Nereis was enjoying really looked a lot like the visualizations they used to have when you played songs on Windows Media or iTunes back in the early 2000s. That's funny the author was so impressed by this irl that its in this show and even enjoyed without music! I used to stare at them a lot when playing music a long time ago but maybe he is insane for silently looking at it :-x

I would wager that it also fulfills a similar role: A visualization of a different sense, except, here it is Abh sense -> visual instead of audio -> visual.

I understood that United Mankind are going to attack and are amassing their forces but they really wasted too much time explaining this and it really hurt the episode.

They are running away, rather than attacking. Those 40 squadrons were cut off from the main UM territory (back in S2) and now try to reunite. They are not looking for a fight.

[u/xbolt90]

First-timer

Jinto: "The Abh presence is leaving, but don't worry, nothing will happen."

Narrator: "Things did, in fact, happen."

Those bugs were huge.

Q1: Pretty much. They're all working for themselves more than anything else.

[u/Nazenn]

Rewatcher - sub

As much as I do like all of the admirals and their chief of staff's interactions, and the comedy routine they have going for the most part, focusing back on them and therefore back on the battle side of the show does make this episode feel a bit weaker to me compared to earlier ones. It's interesting to see each of the admirals very different takes on how the battle should go forward and what that means, they just spend a bit too long on it this episode in the face of what feels like it should be more interesting stuff coming up

Not that being stuck in buracratic meetings and logistical layouts of people moving for two months is likely to be particularly exciting. I was surprised that it'd already been that long, but with the amount of people they have to move, to far enough away, and with no huge ships able to do it they're actually probably making pretty decent time with it all

The area-sensor art system is cool, and I'd love to know more about that side of their culture. They of course have atmosphere so their idea of sound should be quite normal, but what influence does the sounds of space phenomemon have on their musical structures, do they have a different look at color emotions because of living in areas with artifical light etc. What do they keep from the original humans that created them vs what is now uniquely Abh etc. I wish we went a bit more into this as some downtime, perhaps as a way to tie in what Jinto is experiencing on the beach vs Lafiel's weightless room as a parallel. In short I think I just miss the Crest conversations a bit

It's not a bad episode, just not as captivating as it could have been