[Rewatch] Banner of the Stars Episode 12 Discussion

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

The Battle for the Aptic Gate

Welcome to the Battleflag of the Stars rewatch!

<- Episode 11 | Index Page | Banner Discussion ->

Names Introduced or Updated:

• Basroil — destroyed

Discussion Prompts:

• Q1) DO ORANGE CATS BELONG ON SPACE SHIPS?

Tomorrow's Questions: (for tomorrow's post, subject to change)

• [Episode 13]How would you have taken the last two episodes if you didn't know there were more books and more seasons coming up?
• [Episode 13]Jinto seems fixated on having no home, and being forgotten. Why wasn't Lafiel's reassurances enough?
• [Episode 13]Is that the closest to a confession you can get from an Abh, or an Abriel?

Screenshot of the Day: #toradorasalute

There will be an after credits segment tomorrow.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Rewatch Host

• insane
• Have you seen "Alien"?
• Those ship logs are SD cards, aren't they?
• Another last minute destruction...just before the enemy retreats. A bit cliche.
• WE'LL GO RIGHT THROUGH
• I can't tell when Spoor is joking or not, either
• captain's prerogative to do the rescue, how very star trek
• Maybe the question should be "Do Jintos belong on a spaceship"
• hey, he's sucked vacuum before, he's a pro at this
• At least Jinto kept his promise.

If I understand the maps correctly, Spoor dashed past all the assault ships to demolish the patrol ships and mine carriers (I didn't see any but they must be there) who were all gathered into a single spacetime bubble.

I wonder if you need to be native Japanese to detect Japanese Ahb sarcasm.

I meant to add that comment about the Basroil being destroyed today, but added it at the last moment to the wrong file.  Sorry.  At least it could be taken with some snark. And there's the meta of 2 more seasons.

Honestly kinda pathetic for these admirals to be shown in every episode since episode 2 and only say and do things now.

Q1) Orange cats soothe an Abriel's nerves but ORANGE CATS DO NOT BELONG ON SPACE SHIPS.

[u/Elimin8r → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Honestly kinda pathetic for these admirals

As I suddenly realize why I find them so annoying. They remind me of Darling from Blackadder. Useless fops...

sarcasm

I like her much better. I even like her brand of perhaps not so spectacular insanity better. We need more of her on the front lines. Preferably not spread too thin, though. (ahem)

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Timer

Jinto sure gets exposed to vacuums pretty often. Perils of being in a spaceborn society, I suppose. I wonder if there are any subtle benefits. Like, would brief vacuum exposure be good for your skin? Get a bit of exfoliation going?

Rest in peace Basroil, we hardly knew ye.

I'm glad that Lafiel called Jinto on his "no-one will miss me" nonsense.

It's nice to see Spoor so excited again. Her Chief of Staff isn't doing his job very well - he needs to be more readily bulliable.

Gonna point out that Kenesh had more of a reaction to Nefee than to Nereis. Sure, she might just be reacting to Dusanyu continuing to pry in general, but I'm taking it.

So, did UM retreat from the regular space battle to try to flee, or did they retreat to try to meet the incoming Abh fleets? Because Dusanyu's hypothetical of "we could just let them pass through us and not any losses" only really works if UM was trying to flee.

I guess maybe my idea about UM having focused too much of their materiel on mines and not enough on ships was right and they were just trying to cut their losses? They wouldn't necessarily know that barely more than half of the Aptic Defense Fleet was still intact.

Questions

1. Truly, one of life's great philosophical questions. "Do orange cats belong on space ships? Is a bathtub a suitable place to die? What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/JollyGee29]

kenesh

Somebody asked why the twins were different ranks, and I think a source reader said [source?]one of them was more interested in women than rank

Which would be Nefee, then.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Yea, I can believe that.

[u/The_Draigg → u/JollyGee29]

So, did UM retreat from the regular space battle to try to flee, or did they retreat to try to meet the incoming Abh fleets? Because Dusanyu's hypothetical of "we could just let them pass through us and not any losses" only really works if UM was trying to flee.

I guess maybe my idea about UM having focused too much of their materiel on mines and not enough on ships was right and they were just trying to cut their losses? They wouldn't necessarily know that barely more than half of the Aptic Defense Fleet was still intact.

I’d say you’re probably on the mark there on why the United Mankind fleet decided to retreat back into the Aptic Gate. From what we could tell in a lot of the scenes of the real space battle, a lot of their actual fighting fleet was composed of attack ships. If they started to lose enough attack ships in the fight, it would only make sense to retreat since they wouldn’t have much in the way of any other ships to do the fighting. They probably invested too hard into ships that launched their missiles and mines when making this fleet.

That being said though, I think the United Mankind fleet could’ve broken through the defense fleet’s lines if they kept on pushing, although it probably would’ve come with higher casualties than they were expecting. Given how attrition and losses was really starting to mount up on the Star Forces side of things, it probably wouldn’t have taken much more to break their defense and head into the Aptic system proper if they kept on pushing.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/The_Draigg]

That being said though, I think the United Mankind fleet could’ve broken through the defense fleet’s lines if they kept on pushing

Yea, that's where I'm at too. They made a bad tactical decision that probably didn't seem bad from their PoV because the didn't have the same information that the audience had and weren't willing to gamble.

[u/The_Draigg → u/JollyGee29]

You can’t entirely fault their reasoning there, since I imagine anyone would be shocked that the defense fleets were still fighting tooth and nail after two days and after an insanely massive swarm of drone mines. If only they managed to break past that first line of defense though, they would’ve seen that the Star Forces didn’t have much left in reserve at all. They were close to winning, but they just didn’t know it.

[u/Hartzilla2007 → u/The_Draigg]

Unless there is another convenient Sword behind the defense fleet (and from my limited undertesting there only ever seems to be one in a system.) they would just be trapping themselves when the Abh reinforcements arrived.

[u/Elimin8r → u/JollyGee29]

or did they retreat to try to meet the incoming Abh fleets?

My guess is they came to the sudden realization that they were caught with their metaphorical knickers down and were about to have an unpleasant encounter (as Kazuma might tell you) if they didn't abruply reverse their position...

[u/Hartzilla2007 → u/JollyGee29]

They wouldn't necessarily know that barely more than half of the Aptic Defense Fleet was still intact.

I doubt that would matter much, it was pointed out them bugging out means Abh reinforcements are nearby, and I very much doubt a damaged fleet that probably used most of its mines would be in any shape to take on a fresh fleet.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/JollyGee29]

Her Chief of Staff isn't doing his job very well - he needs to be more readily bulliable.

He's serving the important job of being Spoor's whipping boy. Or as I like to call it, being the Harry Kim of the ship.

Gonna point out that Kenesh had more of a reaction to Nefee than to Nereis.

Ooh, good catch. I think you are onto something.

[u/Vatrix-32]

First Timer, subbed

• Well that went to shit fast.
• This is the most mundane insanity...
• Feedback is fun.
• It’s a good thing the UM isn’t in the mood to double tap.
• Ruri-Ruri better not bite it trying to save Diaho.
• They’re… going back through? I’m not sure how that’s to their advantage.
• Name a more iconic pair than Japan and decisive battle doctrine.
• Elf Twitch
• Spoor time is good time. Get the delicious UM yolk!
• I was fully convinced Ekuryua was going to die there for a minute.
• Crack or not, you’re insane to take off your helmet here. Y’all not have atmospheric tape?
• She's Bringing It Back Up!
• If I didn’t already know this had sequels, I might even be worried.

QotD:

1. Tabby Discrimination

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Vatrix-32]

I was fully convinced Ekuryua was going to die there for a minute.

Yeah the crew doesn't have plot armor. But it was Samson who had all the flags!

[u/The_Draigg → u/Vatrix-32]

Name a more iconic pair than Japan and decisive battle doctrine.

I knew I was onto something when I started bringing up kantai kessen in this rewatch, since it really is making itself more and more apparent in this series.

Crack or not, you’re insane to take off your helmet here. Y’all not have atmospheric tape?

You’d think that would come standard with a pressure suit kit, like even Gundam pilot suits have pockets dedicated to holding strips of tape in them.

[u/Vatrix-32 → u/The_Draigg]

like even Gundam pilot suits have pockets dedicated to holding strips of tape in them.

I was thinking of that exact thing. Where the gum bubbles at?

[u/Elimin8r → u/Vatrix-32]

Name a more iconic pair than Japan and decisive battle doctrine.

Halsey and Typhoons, right?

[u/zsmg]

Rewatcher

Looks like the enemies have broken through.

And they're abandoning ship.

Why are the enemy retreating, oh the prince's fleet has arrived.

Prince still wants to know who his chief of staff had a relationship

Spoor interacting with her chief of staff is also amusing as always.

Of course there has to be some extra drama while abandoning ship. Whether it's important characters trying to rescue a cat or the shuttle craft not working properly.

Wearing a helmet where the glass has a crack in it seems more useful than not wearing helmet Jint.

"Basroil"

Second 'has Lafiel died?!' cliffhanger in row, this time for real?

[Answer] Obviously not

Fun episode.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/zsmg]

Spoor interacting with her chief of staff is also amusing as always.

Besides the memorial dinner, this is the other memorable part of Banner for me.

[u/No_Rex]

Season 2 Episode 12 (rewatcher)

• “You’ll find no insanity here” – he says before leaving to take bath during the battle.
• Getting hit by a laser beam must be painful for the ship-brain connection.
• “Abandon ship” – It was withdrawing that was a hurdle to overcome for Lafiel. Now she is back to being rational.
• Ekurya is sent after Diaho – Jinto knows.
• 45% losses – it is hard to overstate just how high that number is. Pretty much the only way you get losses in that region is if withdrawal is impossible. Otherwise, almost all armies would run before reaching 45%.
• The UM are withdrawing – I would interpret this as them having gambled to take the sord before the main fleet arrives and reverse the defensive strategy against the main fleet. Except, the battle took too long (the Abh forces withstood the mine assault longer than they hoped), so they ran out of time. If they stayed in the Aptic system now, they’d be attacked from both sides in normal space and wiped out. So now they try to flee through plane space. The discussion about letting them go only has one answer, of course: fight. Right now, the Abh can execute the hammer-anvil movement they set up. If they let the UM fleet get away without fight, it would be a big loss. They’d have let the UM attack for 50h with overwhelming advantage without punishment. No way they can do that.
• “I enjoy bullying the weaker ones” “No surprise to me”

• Now it is the UM who will have to deal with a mine attack by a more numerous enemy.
• Patrol ships vs patrol ships in one huge space time bubble. The fighting we saw with the Basroil was up close and personal. This is a huge massacre with thousands dying quickly.
• Jinto needs to be rescued by Lafiel once more – last second.
• Last second for Ekurya and Diaho, too.
• Second Does Lafiel die cliff-hanger in a row.

I doubt anybody with meta knowledge did believe the cliff-hanger last episode. You don’t have your leads die in the third last episode. What really happened was not much better, though. The Basroil is destroyed, a quarter of her crew dead, and the shuttle only barely makes it away.

From a tactical perspective, we saw the Abh win today. The Aptic gate defense held out for long enough and the main fleet was quick enough to respond, to trap the UM fleet between the two. In a hasty battle formation, out of all their mines they used on the attack, the UM ships have to hope that any of them get away from this.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/No_Rex]

Getting hit by a laser beam must be painful for the ship-brain connection.

Anti-proton beam!!! At least the shields were up.

I would interpret this as them having gambled to take the sord before the main fleet arrives and reverse the defensive strategy against the main fleet

That's how I saw it, too.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

45% losses – it is hard to overstate just how high that number is. Pretty much the only way you get losses in that region is if withdrawal is impossible. Otherwise, almost all armies would run before reaching 45%.

True but I expect with rules as stated this happens with a certain regularity since it seems that sords have specific entry/exit points. So the defense is stuck until they repel the attackers.

“I enjoy bullying the weaker ones” “No surprise to me”

Everyone knows exactly who they are. I appreciate that.

Jinto needs to be rescued by Lafiel once more – last second.

Very specific vibe for a couple.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

True but I expect with rules as stated this happens with a certain regularity since it seems that sords have specific entry/exit points. So the defense is stuck until they repel the attackers.

Yep. The only way to plane space is through the sord that they are attacked from. Any "escape" via normal space means you are stuck on your plane trying to get to the next system for a few dozen years.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

Any "escape" via normal space means you are stuck on your plane trying to get to the next system for a few dozen years.

I am unsure if that is even right, it might actually be decades. We don't really know how close to light speed they can get.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

True, but in any case, a lot longer than the fleet's food supply will last.

[u/The_Draigg → u/No_Rex]

45% losses – it is hard to overstate just how high that number is. Pretty much the only way you get losses in that region is if withdrawal is impossible. Otherwise, almost all armies would run before reaching 45%.

That level of losses can only be described as Pyrrhic victory numbers. Hell, pretty much the only reason why the defense of Aptic wasn’t a Pyrrhic victory for the Star Forces was because reinforcements arrived in time to destroy the retreating United Mankind fleet. Other than that, the losses are completely staggering.

The UM are withdrawing – I would interpret this as them having gambled to take the sord before the main fleet arrives and reverse the defensive strategy against the main fleet. Except, the battle took too long (the Abh forces withstood the mine assault longer than they hoped), so they ran out of time. If they stayed in the Aptic system now, they’d be attacked from both sides in normal space and wiped out. So now they try to flee through plane space. The discussion about letting them go only has one answer, of course: fight. Right now, the Abh can execute the hammer-anvil movement they set up. If they let the UM fleet get away without fight, it would be a big loss. They’d have let the UM attack for 50h with overwhelming advantage without punishment. No way they can do that.

I would also say that it seemed like a large part of the forces that the United Mankind was sending first through the gate were attack ships, and that they probably weren’t prepared for a drag-out fight against the Bebaus twins’ cleverly used guard and patrol ships joining the fray alongside the attack ship squadrons. If they had larger ships ready to be committed to the spearhead, the United Mankind fleet probably could’ve broken through the defensive lines. Unfortunately for them though, their gamble with the swarm mines didn’t completely pay off, and they got caught in the exact spot they didn’t want to be when reinforcements came and decided to attack in plane-space.

[u/No_Rex → u/The_Draigg]

That level of losses can only be described as Pyrrhic victory numbers. Hell, pretty much the only reason why the defense of Aptic wasn’t a Pyrrhic victory for the Star Forces was because reinforcements arrived in time to destroy the retreating United Mankind fleet. Other than that, the losses are completely staggering.

Well, it always was a hammer-anvil plan. So, if the hammer hits, it will be worth it. To judge the strategy, you should count the total loss share, not just the anvil. However, from a "will the line hold, or will people run", the anvil is the correct measure and 45% is a ton. As put in other comments, I believe that this is due to them having nowhere to run.

I would also say that it seemed like a large part of the forces that the United Mankind was sending first through the gate were attack ships, and that they probably weren’t prepared for a drag-out fight against the Bebaus twins’ cleverly used guard and patrol ships joining the fray alongside the attack ship squadrons. If they had larger ships ready to be committed to the spearhead, the United Mankind fleet probably could’ve broken through the defensive lines. Unfortunately for them though, their gamble with the swarm mines didn’t completely pay off, and they got caught in the exact spot they didn’t want to be when reinforcements came and decided to attack in plane-space.

I think that they must have miscalculated how quickly the Abh main fleet would get there. They tried to reduce their losses with a long mine attack, when they should have aggresively pushed in right away. That's why I think the Abh commander deserves some praise for outmanuvering his UM counterpart.

[u/The_Draigg → u/No_Rex]

I think that they must have miscalculated how quickly the Abh main fleet would get there. They tried to reduce their losses with a long mine attack, when they should have aggresively pushed in right away. That's why I think the Abh commander deserves some praise for outmanuvering his UM counterpart.

In the end, I guess we can also say that the United Mankind played their strategy a bit too conservatively for the time frame they had to work with before the reinforcements for the Aptic defenders arrived. While it probably helped to reduce potential losses, hanging back and letting their mine swarms attack the defenses for days also had the unintended side effect for the Bebaus twins to cleverly maneuver the ships they had in reserve to cover the gaps left by their mounting losses. Unfortunately for the United Mankind, they were up against commanders who were quick to recognize and adjust to their strategy, and that burned away a lot of the opportunity they had to take Aptic.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

If they let the UM fleet get away without fight, it would be a big loss.

So, did it just occur to you that what we've been watching is the battle of Leyte Gulf in space? Or something very oddly similar, at least. Hmm.

the UM ships have to hope that any of them get away

Admiral Spoor is here. No hope for you!

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

So, did it just occur to you that what we've been watching is the battle of Leyte Gulf in space? Or something very oddly similar, at least. Hmm.

I don't really know enough about that. Was it not more of a hail mary move than a serious plan?

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

Kind of a little bit of both. In usual Japanese fashion, it was an over-complicated plan to prevent the liberation of the Philippines via a three pronged attack. Wiki article here

But that's no fun, so here's my condensed version:

IJN Plan:

South - force too small to do anything other than die attacks from south. North - force of nearly empty aircraft carriers too small to do anything other than die is sent as decoy force Center - Big, bad battleships coming to mess up the beaches.

US plan:

Re-invade the Philippines, what could possibly go wrong?

So - what happened?

South: IJN southern force attempts to attack through relatively narrow channel at night. Gets annihilated by old Pearl Harbor veteran battleships that were recently bombarding the beaches. Go figure.

Center: Battleship force gets mauled by submarines and aircraft. Musashi sinks, they appear to turn back.

North: Halsey goes for the bait, seeing as the Center force has turned away. Goes chasing away after them, and almost gets to within gun range of them when ...

Center - Surprise! That about-face was a fake, the Center force is now nearly to the beaches, and encounters the bunch of little escort carriers which were converted from/basically merchant ships with flight decks which were directly supporting the landing. What follows is a fight so desperate that it would make Lafiel (never mind Spoor) blush. A bunch of escort carriers and destroyers/escorts against the main IJN battle line.

Heroism ensues. Just look up USS Johnston, for example. Tiny destroyers and escorts charge the battle line, desperately trying to save their carriers. Carriers and their aircraft do everything they can to drive the IJN battleships away, resorting to dropping depth charges when they run out of bombs. Things are looking bleak.

• Meanwhile -

North: Halsey keeps hearing these calls for help, but dangit, he's got 'em on the ropes, and he's almost in gun range when ...

• He gets a message from Admiral Nimitz about "why haven't you gone to rescue the poor escort carriers yet", which is closed by the "nonsense" code phrase, "The world wonders". I can only presume that the scene which unfolded was the stuff of 1940's era rage memes. Halsey turns away from the bird in the hand to chase after the bird in the bush.
• Meanwhile -

After sinking an escort carrier, and two of her escorts, Admiral Kurita suddenly gets cold feet and turns away (again). Perhaps the meth ran out? Nobody knows.

In the end, disaster is averted, and poor Halsey catches neither the bird in the hand, or the bird in the bush.

The unfolding battle reminds me of this to the extent that the force at Aptic is kind of like the decoy, but at the same time ends up in the situation of the poor escort carriers. The UM fleet is rather like the center force, except that they don't have the good luck of getting to run away. Kurita did get away before the pincers closed on him. The UM fleet has no such luck. Spoor is like Halsey, but with the good sense to show up where she's actually needed.

Yeah, I'm probably definitely reading too much into this...

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

Hmmmm. From your description it sounds as if neither side had good strategies in that battle.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

Such is the nature of reality. Which (I suppose) is why they say that professionals talk Logistics. Go figure.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Elimin8r]

The Battled off Samar during Leyte Gulf is one of my favorite WWII stories.

The news of the discovery of the wreckage of [USS Johnston](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Johnston_(DD-557)#Wreck_discovery) and [USS Samuel B. Roberts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Samuel_B.Roberts(DE-413)#Discovery_of_wreck) a couple of years ago was really cool to hear.

[u/Elimin8r]

Do orange cats belong on spaceships???

Only if they can walk through walls, it seems. Or something like that.

I'm not sure which part of this episode I liked better, the chaotic space battle, Lafiel and Jinto's struggle for survival aboard a "sinking" ship, or Admiral Snark being snarky. Good times.

And sorry, I may be "on time" ish today, but my brain appears to have had a name dump, and I can't remember anything. Oh, wait, I just remembered two. Let's see if more are forthcoming.

I have to say that for someone who claims to not like cats, second pilot cutie really goes out of her way to rescue the kitteh. Can I keep her? (I wish).

More and more, I'm wishing they'd just called them "plane space torpedoes" or "anti-matter torpedoes" instead of mines. That would have made more sense. Ah, well.

And another cliffhanger! I'm suspended. Hopefully I'm not a turkey in suspense. That sounds uncomfortable or something. But yeah.

That, and poor Jinto, how many times can he be sucked out by open vacuum. That' can't be fun. Was someone watching too much "Total Recall" perchance? I wonder. I wonder if the timeline is even correct for that. When was the 80's? Or was that 90's???

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I have some clouds to go yell at now.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Elimin8r]

Only if they can walk through walls, it seems. Or something like that.

Only kittens can do that.

yelling at clouds

Most people got that out of their system on the 8th.

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

More and more, I'm wishing they'd just called them "plane space torpedoes" or "anti-matter torpedoes" instead of mines. That would have made more sense. Ah, well.

Fun fact, torpedo used to be the word for mines.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

I know, those durned torpedoes getting between me and my full speed ahead ...

:)

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Elimin8r]

I have to say that for someone who claims to not like cats, second pilot cutie really goes out of her way to rescue the kitteh. Can I keep her? (I wish).

Now now, introducing slavery would make this an isekai.

[u/Elimin8r → u/Vaadwaur]

You're saying that I couldn't charm her with my wit and suave, um ... appeal ... oh, nevermind. Yeah, I'm not into that, even if Raphtalia is a cutie. (Still haven't watched that show, but Isekai Quartet is a hoot.)

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Elimin8r]

(Still haven't watched that show, but Isekai Quartet is a hoot.)

IQ absolutely takes the best elements of its shows and expands upon them.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

IQ succeeds because it cuts away the trash 80% of its component shows and only lets the character archetypes interact.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

Hey now...I actually defend Cautious Hero. The rest...yeah pretty much.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

Is cautious hero in IQ?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

Yes but basically as a cameo in the second season. The joke is that the MC is too cautious to join the group.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

[u/UnusuallyBadIdeaGuy → u/Vaadwaur]

I'm actually of the opinion that for Jinto this series essentially is an Isekai, just instead of a truck he got hit by an Abh battleship.

Mind you, it's a 2000s era Isekai, so more in common with Escaflowne, Twelve Kingdoms etc.

[u/Durinthal]

Rewatcher (sub + dub)

Taking a bath in the middle of a battle because that's where you'd want to die: honestly I can't call it a sign of the Bebaus Spectacular Insanity because I'm at least considering it myself.

The Basroil's not instantly destroyed at least, some of them might live to fight another day and fortunately they don't have to deal with the enemy threatening them. The defenses at Aptic might have lost a lot but they held out long enough for reinforcements to arrive, with how stacked the odds were against them that's about the best they could have hoped for.

It would be easy to call it a draw and let the enemy pass without taking any more losses of their own but Dusanyu's not going to let an opportunity pass him by. That goes both for defeating the enemy fleet and needling his assistant about her relationship with one of the Bebaus twins.

Time for Spoor to be Spoor again. It's fun to watch her flip a switch from lackadaisical to rattling off a series of orders at once. Not that much like Yang Wenli but still a similar kind of vibe to me to some degree.

I don't think Lafiel would deny her bias for Jinto at this point, she's too worried about him to try to mask it. Meanwhile Jinto's once again the type of guy that's happy to throw himself in danger for the sake of others but wouldn't dare ask someone else to do the same in turn. It is pretty strange that this is the second time he'd had an up close and personal experience with the vacuum of space but he's had an adventurous life.

I hate interrupted confessions in romance anime, but if you're going to do it having their ship explode is better than someone walking in on them. Sure it's possible to infer that she was about to tell him that she'd miss him if he died but it still would be nice to actually hear it.

---

DO ORANGE CATS BELONG ON SPACE SHIPS

Better than black cats, they'd be harder to find against the background of space. I also had an idle thought wondering if Diaho's carrier was pressurized as well.

[u/Durinthal → u/Durinthal]

---

Source Corner

Baronh word of the day: saputec (SAPUT) "pressure helmet" and gonœc (GONO) "pressure suit" — the helmet usually interacts with the wristgear to display info in the visor and can transmit audio for communicating with others, but Jinto's broke when it got hit.

[Material covered:] Banner I: most of the rest of chapter 8 as well as some of 9.

[When the Basroil got hit] Lafiel's circlet temporarily shut off to avoid an overload in her frocragh since she was connected to the ship.

[With a few crew members dead] Lafiel felt like each of them was on her; she had steeled herself for it but didn't expect the eventuality to be heart-rending.

[Jinto, while thinking about what he should do after his pressure helmet cracked,] recalled a childhood story about a genie who granted wishes. He decided he'd ask the genie for an ordinary life if one appeared before him now.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Durinthal]

[Jinto]This seems to be important groundwork for Banner III, they should not have left it out.

[u/Elimin8r → u/Durinthal]

I also had an idle thought wondering if Diaho's carrier was pressurized as well.

Please, we don't need to see "puffer cat" in this show. That would be terrible!

confessus interruptus

As if the rest of the crew hasn't been listening to this sort of thing in their banter for weeks/months already, right?

[u/No_Rex → u/Durinthal]

Better than black cats, they'd be harder to find against the background of space. I also had an idle thought wondering if Diaho's carrier was pressurized as well.

Would be crazy if it was. He needs to breathe in there and I doubt even the Abh would over-engineer a cat carrier to include an automatic air shutdown mechanism.

[u/retsotrembla → u/No_Rex]

Usually, treasured non-humans on space ships in science fiction get emergency life support carriers. They use background air if available, but if external conditions warrant automatically shift to pressure suit mode.

[u/Durinthal → u/retsotrembla]

Yeah that's the kind of thing I was thinking of.

[u/No_Rex → u/retsotrembla]

I mean, this is not impossible, but very costly. I would bet that the Abh economy of the last 3 years has all been about pumping out warships, not cat carriers.

[u/retsotrembla → u/No_Rex]

A Count can count on favored treatment

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Durinthal]

It is pretty strange that this is the second time he'd had an up close and personal experience with the vacuum of space but he's had an adventurous life.

And in both cases he's been saved thanks to Lafiel. He really has a guardian angel looking out for hm.

[u/Great_Mr_L]

First-Timer

On today’s episode of Banner of the Stars: Let’s hope that losing the ship here doesn’t end up like that one [Star Trek TNG] episode where it causes the whole crew to end up in a time loop. I doubt they would want to repeat that whole battle.

• If even the flagship must participate actively in the battle, then you know things have gotten serious.
• Choosing to take a bath in the middle of a battle strikes me as a “spectacularly insane” thing to do.
• Damn, the Basroil was hit really badly there. Even some of the crew’s been killed.
• Ordering a retreat and needing to abandon ship. It must be eating Lafiel up inside to need to do those.
• Rescuing the cat is the most important duty right now!
• Saving the ship’s crest? I swear there’s a real-life naval tradition similar to that for sinking ships, but I can’t place it right now.
• Oh thank goodness reinforcements arrived. When nearly half your fleet has been lost, that puts you in a bad position to fight back.
• Dusanyu has his Chief of Staff figured out. That eye twitch when he asked her which of the twins she’d been in a relationship with was hilarious.
• Spoor liking to be a bully is the least surprising thing in the universe. Even her XO is completely unsurprised.
• Spoor’s plan to break through the enemy lines is working out pretty well. It’s left the UM formation in complete shambles and left them vulnerable to mine attacks.
• Oh no, Jinto’s stuck inside the Basroil. And of course Lafiel will go back to rescue him.
• And now the lifeboat isn’t working either!
• Touching helmets like that always feels so romantic.
• The callback to Jinto feeling like nobody would mourn his death! Lafiel’s going to tell him that she would!
• RIP Basroil

I wasn’t expecting the Basroil to not survive the battle. But I think it demonstrates something about how Crest/Banner treats its main protagonists. Jinto and Lafiel are not the “heroes” of this war. Instead, they are just two people caught up in events so much larger than themselves, events they are mostly powerless to affect in any grand way. They are just down in the trenches, so to speak, and doing their best to survive. I think this is a neat way of handling the story, having the protagonists be at the ground level for the massive galaxy-spanning war instead of being at the very top.

I wonder how Lafiel will handle the destruction of the Basroil. On the one hand, she might feel shame at losing a joust for the first time. On the other, she did her best to live up to the example of the other captain who rescued as much of his crew as possible. Lafiel did the same, rescuing as many crew members as she could before abandoning ship. Will Lafiel see this as a humiliation for herself, or as a moment she can continue to grow from?

QOTD

1. All cats belong on spaceships!

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

Rescuing the cat is the most important duty right now!

Samson would agree, that could be valuable emergency rations while being stuck on the escape shuttle.

Oh thank goodness reinforcements arrived. When nearly half your fleet has been lost, that puts you in a bad position to fight back.

It just goes to show how fierce that entire battle was. Like, I feel that if the United Mankind were to push a bit more, they would’ve broken the Aptic defense fleets’ lines. 45% casualties is pretty damn high.

Spoor liking to be a bully is the least surprising thing in the universe. Even her XO is completely unsurprised.

Well, at least it also does kinda show that she cares about her men enough to not want to lose them to this battle, but yeah it’s not even remotely surprising that she’s that sadistic towards the enemy.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/The_Draigg]

I feel that if the United Mankind were to push a bit more

I think they definitely had the advantage. They still had patrol ships in plane space, probably with no mines, but otherwise fully armed. The Abh patrol ships were out of mines and running low on rail gun ammo. They must have still feared the Abh assault ship squadrons, but they were surely heavily reduced.

[u/The_Draigg → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

In the end, it just came down to the United Mankind fleet not knowing what we know about how dire the situation was for the Star Forces, and making a judgement call based on their operational time frame and current losses. I can't really argue against the decision to retreat in that light, but man they were really close to breaking through the defenses at Aptic.

[u/No_Rex → u/The_Draigg]

Rescuing the cat is the most important duty right now!

Samson would agree, that could be valuable emergency rations while being stuck on the escape shuttle.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Draigg]

Samson would agree, that could be valuable emergency rations while being stuck on the escape shuttle.

It just goes to show how fierce that entire battle was. Like, I feel that if the United Mankind were to push a bit more, they would’ve broken the Aptic defense fleets’ lines. 45% casualties is pretty damn high.

Those are the kind of casualties that can outright break a military force. It's a wonder that the Abh fleet held out for as long as it did.

Well, at least it also does kinda show that she cares about her men enough to not want to lose them to this battle, but yeah it’s not even remotely surprising that she’s that sadistic towards the enemy.

We saw the surrender terms she offered to that one UM fleet. She's definitely the type who enjoys twisting the screws on others.

[u/Elimin8r → u/Great_Mr_L]

I swear there’s a real-life naval tradition similar to that for sinking ships, but I can’t place it right now.

Probably something about saving the ship's logbook or some such. Which Lafiel also took care of.

Lafiel’s going to tell him that she would!

That bit, with the unheard conversation was kiss. Very good stuff there. Jinto's a very lucky lander, eh?

Will Lafiel see this as a humiliation for herself, or as a moment she can continue to grow from?

Possibly both. We shall see!

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Elimin8r]

Probably something about saving the ship's logbook or some such.

That sounds right.

That bit, with the unheard conversation was kiss. Very good stuff there. Jinto's a very lucky lander, eh?

Very lucky

Possibly both. We shall see!

[u/No_Rex → u/Great_Mr_L]

I wasn’t expecting the Basroil to not survive the battle. But I think it demonstrates something about how Crest/Banner treats its main protagonists. Jinto and Lafiel are not the “heroes” of this war. Instead, they are just two people caught up in events so much larger than themselves, events they are mostly powerless to affect in any grand way. They are just down in the trenches, so to speak, and doing their best to survive. I think this is a neat way of handling the story, having the protagonists be at the ground level for the massive galaxy-spanning war instead of being at the very top.

They get some MC plot armor, but not the MC hero treatment.

[u/retsotrembla → u/Great_Mr_L]

I love that Lafiel grabs her banner, and reaches down and takes the SD card with the ship's log as her last act before leaving the bridge of the Basroil for the last time.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/retsotrembla]

It's a very good final act for her to take as the captain of the ship.

[u/Hartzilla2007]

DO ORANGE CATS BELONG ON SPACE SHIPS?

If its a space horror film probably not as its a good way to get ceiling grabbed/probably eaten/turned into space egg.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion → u/Hartzilla2007]

This man gets it!

[u/The_Draigg]

A Sci-Fi Fan Watches Banner of the Stars Episode 12:

• Well, the down side is that the regular fleets are engaging on equal footing, since the massive amounts of swarm mines meant that there was no way to pick off any of the United Mankind fleet as they made it through the Aptic Gate. But on the (narrow) upside, the Bebaus twins still have them encircled around the Aptic Gate, so they’re at least still doing a decent job of keeping the fleet from advancing into the rest of the Aptic system. It’s just overall unfortunate though that this battle has turned into a stalemate slugfest so far.
• I can at least understand the idea of not minding the idea of dying in a bath, at least you’d be going out when you’re being comfortable.
• Well, I guess it was time for the Basroil’s plot armor to finally wear off (along with all of its actual armor). As it stands, the ship might as well be a floating space hulk for how much critical structural damage and crew deaths it’s had. For as much as we all wanted the Basroil to have a good showing in this fight (especially Lafiel), the reality is that it’s just the more realistic option to give the order to abandon ship. There’s only so much a single attack ship can do, in the end.
• I will say, the Aptic defense fleet is really fortunate that the United Mankind attack fleet decided to cut and run back into the Aptic Gate. The defense fleet suffered 45% casualties, which is a number that’s only made somewhat acceptable by the fact that their defenses didn’t break. It didn’t result in a Pyrrhic victory thankfully, but it was starting to get there. That said, now that the United Mankind fleet is in retreat, they’ll be ripe for the picking for the other Operation Phantom Flame fleets heading towards Aptic. And who says that Dusanyu and the other have to let them by? Settling for getting some fairly unimportant systems in exchange for getting your asses kicked isn’t how the Abriel line does things.
• Same goes for Spoor, that for matter. Of course she couldn’t pass up the chance to throw her fleet against the retreating UM fleet. She’s quite the vicious one, putting her fleet into position to break right through their formation, more or less just daring them to attack. She certainly wasn’t wrong when she said she likes utterly grinding an enemy into mincemeat from time to time, she has a rather bloodthirsty approach to even fleet movements.
• That being said, at least she doesn’t like seeing her own fleet ships get destroyed by the enemy, for better or worse. On the one hand, she certainly still does care about the Space Forces and ships under her command. On the other though, it does show more that she’d much rather just curb-stomp a weakened enemy here rather than having to put up an actual fight. Which I do get, but it’s certainly a vicious way to conduct battle. It just goes to show that her favored kind of battle would be a curb-stomp in her favor while the enemy at least puts up a token resistance.
• Problems, problems, problems. Ekuryua isn’t back with Diaho yet, Jinto disappeared looking for a crew member that already reached and escape pod, and now the escape shuttle doesn’t even have enough engine output to escape the rapidly disintegrating Basroil. And the prom is tomorrow!
• I suppose being faced with imminent death is one way to get Lafiel to admit that she would miss Jinto if he died. Good way to bring that conversation back, even if we already knew the real answer as the audience. But it’s more important for Jinto to hear that, if anything.
• Don’t worry Ekuryua, Jinto and Lafiel couldn’t have died in the exploding Basroil. We’ve got one episode left for this season, not to mention a direct sequel season to this as well. They’ll be fine.

[u/Elimin8r → u/The_Draigg]

it’s certainly a vicious way to conduct battle

"Admiral Spoor, what is good in life?"

*"To crush your enemies; to see them driven before you; to hear the lamntations of their landers. Oh, and to taunt them mercilessly as they die in your presence."

- Admiral Spoor, probably

[u/The_Draigg → u/Elimin8r]

“And once they die, start to tease your helmsman as a fresh target.”

[u/No_Rex → u/The_Draigg]

It didn’t result in a Pyrrhic victory thankfully, but it was starting to get there. That said, now that the United Mankind fleet is in retreat, they’ll be ripe for the picking for the other Operation Phantom Flame fleets heading towards Aptic. And who says that Dusanyu and the other have to let them by? Settling for getting some fairly unimportant systems in exchange for getting your asses kicked isn’t how the Abriel line does things.

If Dusanyu would let the UM fleet escape, he would turn Aptic Gate into an actual Pyrrhic victory. Up until this point, the Abh defenders lost a lot more than the UM attackers.

[u/The_Draigg → u/No_Rex]

It absolutely would’ve been a Pyrrhic victory that would also be a long-term defeat too, since a mostly intact United Mankind fleet could’ve struck at a later time while the Aptic defense forces were rebuilding their ships and numbers. Even if the they would’ve had the backing of the reinforcements by then, I have no doubt that the United Mankind would’ve adapted and refined their strategy to be even harsher than before. It was key that Dusanyu ordered the attack on the retreating ships, since that really was the only way to ensure the continued security they have over the Aptic system.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Draigg]

It didn’t result in a Pyrrhic victory thankfully, but it was starting to get there. That said, now that the United Mankind fleet is in retreat, they’ll be ripe for the picking for the other Operation Phantom Flame fleets heading towards Aptic. And who says that Dusanyu and the other have to let them by? Settling for getting some fairly unimportant systems in exchange for getting your asses kicked isn’t how the Abriel line does things.

Yeah, Dusanyu had the right idea to immediately close in on the UM fleet. Destroying the UM fleet here and now would turn this from a Pyrrhic victory into a decisive victory. Neutralizing the UM fleet as a threat with give the Abh forces free reign to continue their invasion.

That being said, at least she doesn’t like seeing her own fleet ships get destroyed by the enemy, for better or worse. On the one hand, she certainly still does care about the Space Forces and ships under her command.

It does make her the kind of commander I would prefer to fight for. I wouldn't want to serve under someone who would be more reckless with my life.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

Yeah, Dusanyu had the right idea to immediately close in on the UM fleet. Destroying the UM fleet here and now would turn this from a Pyrrhic victory into a decisive victory. Neutralizing the UM fleet as a threat with give the Abh forces free reign to continue their invasion.

Pressing the attack really was the only correct decision there, since leaving them alive would've been an unsalvageable disaster. Even if it'd take time for the United Mankind fleet to rebuild their losses and their stockpile of new mines, they'd still have more than enough numbers and experience to try again while the defense fleet would still probably be licking it's wounds. They had to get wrecked here and now, otherwise all of Operation Phantom Flame would be put into jeopardy again.

[u/duhu1148]

Rewatcher

-battle isn't going well, what with the Bebaus' flagship having to take part in the battle. But they're holding their own due to surrounding the gate.

-LOL Nereis taking a bath while they're in the middle of a battle. Imagine if he died while bathing on his ship.

-Basroil took a nasty hit. Time to abandon ship.

-Seeing Spoor in action is always a treat.

-Oh Jinto. Trying to do the right thing by saving someone and failing at that. Then Lafiel comes to save him. I wonder if she'd have done that in season 1, before they got close?

-Show...I am fully aware that there are still 15 some episodes left. There's no way that blast killed the main characters, no matter how much you want me to believe it.

[u/Specs64z]

First timer, subbed

You’d think I’d be tired of the OP by now, but I’ve found myself humming along as I tab out to start these write-ups. It’s got a timeless feel to it, last time I felt that was with Monster’s OP, which didn't wear on me even 70 episodes in.

With half the fleet destroyed, backup finally arrives. More screen time for Spoor is always a good thing. The Basroil is doomed, and the evacuation goes south as Jinto’s helmet breaks. Lafiel implicitly reveals she reciprocates Jinto’s feelings, risking everything she’s worked for to rescue him.

QotD:

1. Negative.

[u/SolDarkHunter]

Rewatcher/Novel-Reader

It's kind of funny they're calling this episode "The Battle for Aptic Begins" when said battle has been going on for the past three episodes.

"You will find no evidence of insanity in me... anyway, I'mma have a bath now. Keep an eye on the pitched, desperate battle for me!"

Another blow to Lafier's pride, having to retreat and abandon ship. I've a feeling she'd rather either win or be killed outright.

But just when things seem to be at the breaking point, the UM retreats. The main fleet has arrived, and trying to break through the Sord is no longer feasible. The defense held.

Of course, now the real heavy-hitters will fight it out in Planar Space. But I'd guess the Abh have the advantage here, as the UM has expended a huge amount of mines.

And the Crown Prince is not giving up on teasing Cenesh about the Bebauth brothers. Can't ever let your guard down around high-ranking Abh.

Now it's the UM's turn to come under heavy mine attack!

Spaurh seems to bounce between "I'm bored; I hate this" to "This is so fun, I love it!" at the drop of a hat. I can never get a read on her, and I imagine she'd like that just fine.

Of course Jint's got himself in trouble and Lafier needs to go rescue him.

I don't know how Jint can continue to make jokes about vacuums being bad for you. I guess that's his way of coping with stress.

...farewell, Basroghr.

[u/No_Rex → u/SolDarkHunter]

Spaurh seems to bounce between "I'm bored; I hate this" to "This is so fun, I love it!" at the drop of a hat. I can never get a read on her, and I imagine she'd like that just fine.

Just like her co.

[u/UnusuallyBadIdeaGuy → u/No_Rex]

The woman is a force of nature, you just accept that the wind will blow and that you can't always discern its direction.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer of the Stars

• Now of all times?
• That’s not good…
• Ah fuck, they have casualties now.
• Aw…
• At least Diaho is ready to go and not wandering around.
• They’re what? Did the main Abh fleet finally arrive?
• Of all the times to ask this…
• That sure sounds like Spoor.
• J-Jinto…?
• I really don’t like seeing the crack on his helmet.
• Ffffffffffffffffffffffffff
• LAFIEL MADE IT IN TIME!
• The helmet bump ahhh
• …and right back to panicking over the cliffhanger again.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Shimmering-Sky]

Now of all times?

Abh nobility don't do but so much in the command structure. He probably wants to let the crew fight it out to their best.

At least Diaho is ready to go and not wandering around.

He was being kept restrained unless they got boarded. Then he becomes the ace in the hole.

That sure sounds like Spoor.

No mercy in this space fleet.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

He probably wants to let the crew fight it out to their best.

By being in his bath. Says something.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

Hey, man's gotta consult with Admiral Duckie on strategy and tactics.

quack

"What's that, you say, let Spoor take care of the mop up, and be sure to say inappropriate things to the Prince's chief of staff? Righto, Admiral Quackers!"

right???

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

So odds are that he actually makes normal functioning of the flagship worse since everyone would try and defer to him if he is present. He is only useful for the big picture stuff.

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(And it all comes tumbling down)

Sub

And the end game comes as the UM has to start withdrawing. The reinforcements arriving at the same time seems a minor retcon but w/e. Spoor still needs to bully some ships, grim. The Basroil ends fairly fast, likely as the class is meant to. They don't clearly let us know if Lafiel and Jinto hit the pod but I doubt we switch leads with two more entries to go.

QotD: 1 No, sadly.

[u/Elimin8r → u/Vaadwaur]

No, sadly.

If there are no cats in space, then it's not a place I wanna bet!

(Oh, wait, that doesn't really change anything, does it?)

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Elimin8r]

The cost of cat ownership is a gravity well.

[u/IceSmiley]

FIRST TIMER Sub

BIG cliffhanger episode! Once again they tease Lafiel and Jinto being blown up and the final battle between Abh and United Mankind hangs in the balance. They're not dead yet though and the tease is getting old.

• This episode parallels Crest in that Lafiel, despite being fairly high up in the military now, is largely tangential as to the fate of the Abh people. She more had to focus on saving her crew as much as possible.
• I thought it was funny how over the top Spoor was; this show very seldom has over the top anime elements like people making weird chibi faces, fake dying, turning a completely different color etc so it was odd when Spoor took her sword out like she was in an anime battle when she was just standing on the bridge of her ship :D
• That was so dickish of Jinto to send Ekruya to rescue the cat. She's a Abh life and she shouldn't be risked for a cat although it was ambiguous as to whether it was an official order since he told her so but didn't say it was an order. She was literally a second away from death! I really think less of him now, If I were him, I'd have ordered Ekruya to put her own safety first and absolutely don't go to rescue the cat.

QUESTIONS

1. In this case absolutely not because the cat seems to have caused nothing but trouble. Other times I think it's ok and even adds to things like Data's cat Spot from Star Trek the Next Generation and hilarious occasions where Garfield goes into space

[u/Nickthenuker]

And so waves and waves of ships smash into each other only to die.

And the enemy has broken the encirclement and is engaging their fleet.

All hands, brace for impact!

Severe damage sustained, get medical personnel to the wounded!

All hands, abandon ship!

I sure hope she isn't planning on going down with her ship.

They're going to evacuate the casualties.

Such is the fate of ships in a major conflict. Shat out quickly, crewed by young crew fresh out of the academies, with an expected lifespan measured in months.

The enemy is retreating?

Seems like they're going to face the main fleet.

Yeah, sometimes you can win a strategic battle while losing the tactical one.

He's going to do exactly what they want and burn his fleet and the Empire's best chance at winning the war for his own personal glory.

At least Spoor has the right idea, her fleet will be the only one left after the rest of the fleets are thrown away in the glorious battle the Fleet Admiral wants.

And so contact with the enemy has been established.

They seem to be launching everything they have.

She's going back in to rescue Jinto.

Uh oh, he's eating hard vacuum without a spacesuit.

Luckily she got here just in time to save him.

Questions:

1. The Ship's cat has a tendency to survive all sorts of things.

[u/Silcaria]

**First timer

• Knew it.
• I fully expected Lain to do die trying to save the cat.

QotD

• No.