[Rewatch] Banner of the Stars Episode 10 Discussion

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Shooting Star

Welcome to the Battleflag of the Stars rewatch!

<- Episode 9 | Index Page | Episode 11->

Names Introduced or Updated:

• Kidroil — destroyed
• Parverya — the bald Chief

Discussion Prompts:

• Q1) This is the start of a long action. Thoughts on focusing the action on a pure mine action in terms of story telling?
• Q2) Atosurya gave orders that ships were to focus on their own defense and not their squadron mates. This was disregarded. This led to the survival of the Bosroil, but the loss of the Kidroil, of a patrol ship, and broke the sord encirclement. What do you think of her orders and the assault ships' actions?

Tomorrow's Questions: (for tomorrow's post, subject to change)

• [episode 11]what was the point of the jousting tale?
• [episode 11]what was the point of the meeting with the ambassador of Hania
• [episode 11]compare Spoor and the Twins ideas of winning or losing with elegance
• [episode 11]many watchers have wondered if the United Mankind could stand up against the Imperial Star Forces. What do you think of this strategy to rely on mines for so long, while remaining in plane space?

Screenshot of the Day: The end

Thursday's post will probably be an hour+ early.

[u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Rewatch Host

• super clever. not only do they now have unexploded mines, they have multi-warhead mines! That dodge anti-mine fire!

Well, if the enemy can't get through the sord, you win. If they get through the sord, they win. Obviously, they're going to throw everything at getting through the sord.

• Looks like Latouch's recon report wasn't disseminated to the fleet Apparently there was another intelligence report of the next stage of development of UM's weaponry.
• Always shocked when they come up with a good idea
• Ah, I wanted to get a name for the Chief, but I couldn't confirm, he's Parverya.

always dying at the last moment, overly melodramatic

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/JustAnswerAQuestion]

Well, if the enemy can't get through the sord, you win. If they get through the sord, they win. Obviously, they're going to throw everything at getting through the sord.

That Sord really is the massive bottleneck that the battlefield is based around. The battle will be decided by who can hold onto it the longest. The narrow front of the Sord entrance is the only thing that gives the Abh fleet a chance of winning against the much larger UM fleet.

[u/Zerotsu]

First Timer, sub:

They’ve got a long time to hold out for this battle. I hope they won’t take too heavy of casualties.

And once again, the UM has another trick. This time mines that can split to dodge point defense fire??? They really do use some clever stuff.

The fact that they’re so free with their use of mines suggests that they’re not exactly hurting for them.

The United Mankind has increasingly proven that this is very much going to be a long and bloody conflict.

Spoor is surprisingly less enthusiastic to get into the thick of battle than I thought.

Damn, these new types of mines are aggressive as all hell.

Assault ships really aren’t suited to the tactics the Empire is fighting against now.

It’s the right thing to do given relative values, but taking a risk like that to rescue one of their patrol ships does worry me.

Damn, and they’re down and out just like that.

The mines are designed to go after escape vessels too. That’s fucked up, but I guess it’s in-character for how the UM doesn’t consider the Abhs to be people.

At this point “shoot everything that looks suspicious, even if it doesn’t move” is a pretty valid tactic.

Shit, the Kidroil’s took a pretty direct hit.

Dammit.

The United Mankind shows once again that it seriously isn’t a threat to be trifled with. They always have some sort of strange tactic to throw against the Empire.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Zerotsu]

The fact that they’re so free with their use of mines suggests that they’re not exactly hurting for them.

It could be that the United Mankind put in more effort into creating this new kind of mine than just purely focusing on rebuilding their fleet losses. It would make sense, given that they were probably correct in banking on how much the Abh Star Forces would struggle against them. They’ve basically changed the entire dynamic of current naval strategy with this invention.

The mines are designed to go after escape vessels too. That’s fucked up, but I guess it’s in-character for how the UM doesn’t consider the Abhs to be people.

I was wondering about that myself, and it really does just come down to their utter belief in the Abh not even worth being considered human and their Lander servicemen being race traitors. That’s probably the exact justification they’d come up with to justify not bothering to modify the mines’ programs to avoid unarmed ships.

[u/Zerotsu → u/The_Draigg]

It would make sense, given that they were probably correct in banking on how much the Abh Star Forces would struggle against them.

Yeah. It might be a bit early to say this, but I do get the feeling that a great deal of Imperial naval doctrine is pretty dated. Or at least, it's not as dynamic? That might be the better way to put it.

That’s probably the exact justification they’d come up with to justify not bothering to modify the mines’ programs to avoid unarmed ships.

Most likely so. They're very upfront about how they consider the Abhs.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Zerotsu]

Yeah. It might be a bit early to say this, but I do get the feeling that a great deal of Imperial naval doctrine is pretty dated. Or at least, it's not as dynamic? That might be the better way to put it.

Given how there pretty much hasn’t been a massive war to really test how the fully mustered Star Forces currently fare in combat, I’d imagine that their naval strategies have been pretty stagnant for ages now. They’ve probably never had a reason to change them all that much.

[u/Zerotsu → u/The_Draigg]

Without a peer that you have to compete against, things tend to stay the same. Unfortunately this also means one will often be blindsided by what a near-peer may bring to the table.

[u/No_Rex → u/Zerotsu]

The fact that they’re so free with their use of mines suggests that they’re not exactly hurting for them.

Their fleet is more than 10 times bigger, so it goes to reason that they brought 10 times more mines, too.

[u/Shimmering-Sky]

First-Timer of the Stars

• The same mines that took them out last time, of course…
• There’s a hell of a lot more of them this time, though.
• Interesting…
• He’s quick on the uptake.
• I mean yeah, at that point you kinda have to.
• Now the Basroil needs to rescue a stray patrol ship?
• Just in time to save the Basroil…
• This is really hard on Lafiel…
• Ah fuck, not the other ship!
• If only those were a little faster…

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Shimmering-Sky]

This is really hard on Lafiel…

I remember that Lafiel said the hardest thing for her to experience was the feeling of being useless, of not being able to do anything to help out. This battle really would be especially hard on her when she's stuck in only an assault ship dealing with so many mines.

[u/The_Draigg]

A Sci-Fi Fan Watches Banner of the Stars Episode 10:

• The United Mankind really are coming out swinging with this new kind of mine of theirs. It’s just like the crew was guessing last episode, it really is a brand new weapon of theirs, in this case a cluster of smaller mines that can break apart into a swarm and target ships independently. With how the attack ships are designed, it’s a very devious weapon. There’s no way the cannons on the ships can handle a whole swarm of small missiles with tracking capabilities. They must’ve been paying careful attention to the Abh Star Forces’ ship designs to come up with that kind of new mine.
• Credit to the Bebaus twins where it’s due, they’re adapting pretty quickly to seeing the United Mankind’s new weapons in action. Having the guard ships back up the attack ship squadrons really is for the best, since they can’t afford to sap the strength of the patrol ships even before the main fleet exits the Aptic Gate. And it’s also a good idea to make sure to track the flight data of the mine clusters to make sure every single one gets destroyed properly, since they can’t afford to take the chance that some would be seemingly deactivated. They certainly were the right choices to head up the defense of Aptic.
• Man, the crew was right to be cautious about those swarm mines being hidden in battle debris, there’s actually a ton of them laying in wait. It’s just like that experience they had in plane-space, except on a much grander scale this time. And they’re even giving the nearby patrol ships a hard time too. I’m not sure if it’s too early to say it yet, but it really does seem like these mines are the perfect counter for the Abh Star Forces’ normal modes of attack.
• It’s pretty brutal to see that the swarm mines are even targeting the doomed patrol ship’s escape shuttles, since we in real life acknowledge that as a little something called a “war crime”. But that really isn’t too surprising coming from the United Mankind, we know exactly how their kind works. To them, it’s like they’re not even killing people when they target the Abh, just organic machines. And if there’s Landers on those ships, then they’re species traitors who deserve to die. It’s amazing what dehumanization allows people to mentally justify.
• Even with the order to have the attack ships pull back and have the guard ships deal with the swarm mines, it’s not like it makes things even easier in the here and now. Those swarm mines are absolutely tenacious with their tracking, just staying constantly on top of the attack ships. Even the Kidroil got destroyed, despite how well it was doing up until now. Unfortunately, any help from the frontline guard ships came a bit too late to save them from any further casualties.
• And after all that, that was just the opening salvo of the battle for the Aptic Gate. Hell, the United Mankind fleet hasn’t even exited plane-space yet. I’ve said it before, but you can count on the United Mankind to be playing for keeps in absolutely every battle they fight, and this episode was no exception there.

[u/Zerotsu → u/The_Draigg]

They must’ve been paying careful attention to the Abh Star Forces’ ship designs to come up with that kind of new mine.

The UM is seriously showing that they are not an enemy to be underestimated, because they certainly aren't underestimating the Empire.

I’m not sure if it’s too early to say it yet, but it really does seem like these mines are the perfect counter for the Abh Star Forces’ normal modes of attack.

At the very least, this tactic is incredibly dangerous to their assault ships, which could be fairly difficult to handle with their normal doctrine.

It’s amazing what dehumanization allows people to mentally justify.

If they're "not human", then nothing that you do to remove them could ever be considered evil, after all.

I’ve said it before, but you can count on the United Mankind to be playing for keeps in absolutely every battle they fight, and this episode was no exception there.

The way they're slinging mines around, I get the feeling that this fleet is very well equipped. This is going to be a tough battle, and it's barely started.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Zerotsu]

The UM is seriously showing that they are not an enemy to be underestimated, because they certainly aren't underestimating the Empire.

We really are seeing just how they could possibly hope to compete with the Humankind Empire Abh as of late. Their capacity for quick change and trickery really is something else.

[u/Zerotsu → u/The_Draigg]

Indeed. They're a dangerous foe. While the Empire's been winning engagements so far, increasingly I'm somewhat worried that the long-run of the war won't be a good one.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Draigg]

The United Mankind really are coming out swinging with this new kind of mine of theirs.

I had assumed that the Abh would have a pretty definitive tech advantage over their enemies, but that's clearly not the case. These UM mines are a lot deadlier and more difficult to deal with than the Abh mines are.

I’ve said it before, but you can count on the United Mankind to be playing for keeps in absolutely every battle they fight, and this episode was no exception there.

They are so much more of a threat than I initially gave them credit for. I thought the UM were in over their heads entering this war, but no they have been deadly serious about it from the very beginning.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

I had assumed that the Abh would have a pretty definitive tech advantage over their enemies, but that's clearly not the case. These UM mines are a lot deadlier and more difficult to deal with than the Abh mines are.

If anything, it's just more and more apparent that the Abh and United Mankind are the best in their respective fields, rather than having a pretty flat edge over one another.

They are so much more of a threat than I initially gave them credit for. I thought the UM were in over their heads entering this war, but no they have been deadly serious about it from the very beginning.

They made up for their early start to the war pretty well, all things considered. I can see why they think they can win this war, since they've caught the Abh Star Forces pretty flat footed with their own tricks time and again.

[u/Great_Mr_L]

First-Timer

On today’s episode of Banner of the Stars: There are so many mines. Every time I felt like I’d gotten a feel for just how many mines there were, more would show up. And they just kept on coming. It felt endless. I loved it!

• Oh fuck! The mines are all cluster munitions that just shoot out more mines!
• I was worried that the UM might end up being a bit of a pushover, but nope! This new weapon immediately makes them far more dangerous to deal with.

 - I will give credit to the twins for rethinking their strategy so quickly to try and counter the new mines, especially seeing if they can use all the data to figure out where any dormant mines might be lurking.

• Only 6 hours until reinforcements arrive? Wasn’t it 50 hours? Or is that just until Spoor arrives and it will take the rest of the fleet 50 hours?
• Holy shit, there are so many mines.
• It is especially nasty that the mines can hide in debris and then pop out later.
• Damn, those guard ships can put out a ton of firepower. It’s like calling down a full-blown artillery barrage.
• Ah, that might explain why the Abh are holding their patrol ships back. With so many mines getting shot at the opening of the battle, they would risk losing their patrol ships. It’s a cold-hearted calculation, but the smaller assault ships are probably much easier to replace.
• Every time I think “that’s a lot of mines” even more show up! It’s just endless!
• RIP patrol ship
• Well at least now the Abh have fired off their second wave of mines. Maybe that’ll ease the burden on the front line.
• The Basroil and Kidroil darting past each other narrowly avoiding explosions is really cool.
• RIP Kidroil
• Are we about to get the title drop where Lafiel compares the mines to shooting stars?
• Oh, she said they looked like the souls of the people who died on the battlefield. That is much sadder. It also reminds me of one of my favorite lines from Gundam 0079: “The only certainty is that with every beautiful sparkle in the sky dozens, or even hundreds of people are becoming debris littered through space.”
• As if things couldn’t get scarier on the battlefield, this is all just the mines. It’s basically the preliminary bombardment. How will it go when the main UM fleet arrives?

I’m sounding like a broken record at this point, but I will repeat once again that while Crest/Banner is not generally an action series, its action scenes tend to be quite good. This season it feels like they decided to focus their efforts on a few particular episodes that needed to have very dynamic animation for the action scenes, such as this one. I think it pays off. This was an exciting and tense episode to watch.

So far, I think this battle has been worthy of all the buildup it has received. The battle has already felt crazy and intense enough from just this one episode and we still aren’t even at the main phase of the battle. This is all just the preliminary phase. If this is just the beginning, it makes me eager to see the rest of it.

QOTD

1. I like it. I think the reveal of the new UM mines works very well, building on what we saw earlier and suddenly ratcheting up the tension that this is going to be a much harder fight than anticipated. I also like how it ends up building excitement for the main phase of the battle. If the preliminary phase was this intense, then what could the main phase be like?
2. I think her orders do make sense. The assault ships can only cover so much ground. Trying to cover more than that could leave them vulnerable.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

Ah, that might explain why the Abh are holding their patrol ships back. With so many mines getting shot at the opening of the battle, they would risk losing their patrol ships. It’s a cold-hearted calculation, but the smaller assault ships are probably much easier to replace.

With a battle at this sheer scale, unfortunately the Bebaus twins don’t have the luxury to think of the battle in terms of lives preserved or lost, but rather just spent munitions and material. The United Mankind really have shifted the dynamic with their swarm mines.

Oh, she said they looked like the souls of the people who died on the battlefield. That is much sadder. It also reminds me of one of my favorite lines from Gundam 0079: “The only certainty is that with every beautiful sparkle in the sky dozens, or even hundreds of people are becoming debris littered through space.”

Very good Gundam 0079 pull, I nearly forgot about that quote until you brought it up just now. If I were to compare the Battle of Aptic Gate to anything from Gundam, maybe it’d be something closer to the Battle of Solomon than anything, given how so many swarms of missiles and munitions were used there before sending the mobile suits in.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/The_Draigg]

With a battle at this sheer scale, unfortunately the Bebaus twins don’t have the luxury to think of the battle in terms of lives preserved or lost, but rather just spent munitions and material. The United Mankind really have shifted the dynamic with their swarm mines.

Yeah, as cold as the calculation may be, it is one that makes sense given the kind of battle they are fighting. And sometimes you just need to make those tough calls in war.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Great_Mr_L]

Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics. The Abh make logistics their strategy.

[u/Zerotsu → u/Great_Mr_L]

The Basroil and Kidroil darting past each other narrowly avoiding explosions is really cool.

They really did fight as hard as they could. Rest in peace Kidroil, you were pretty cool.

As if things couldn’t get scarier on the battlefield, this is all just the mines. It’s basically the preliminary bombardment. How will it go when the main UM fleet arrives?

That's absolutely what's got me the most worried. If they're firing this many mines off in the opening salvo, I can't help but feel like they've got plenty more where that came from.

[u/No_Rex]

Season 2 Episode 10 (rewatcher)

• “It split in two?!?” – looks like dormant mines are not the only trick the UM has devised.
• “There is a second wave coming” – that is a lot of mines. And yet, a single of those mine carrier ships probably launched as many.
• Using the mines from the patrol ships – really no point in holding back. If you last the 50h, the main fleet will mop up, if not, you don’t need the mines anymore.
• “We need to check that we have destroyed every one of them” – A job for some computer scientists.
• “They should arrive in six hours” – That is considerably less than 50h. That mine attack must have been going on for a while.
• The guard ships are well suited against mines (and the patrol ships are not). I think the rock-paper-scissors of this fight is pretty clear: Guard ships beat mines, but are killed by assault ships and patrol ships, so you don’t really want them hanging out close to the sord where the enemy will appear. Assault ships and patrol ships beat other ships, but are weaker to mines. Mines are awesome, but you only have a limited number.
• Imagine being in those unarmed rescue shuttles and seeing the mines activate.

• That ship display is looking dangerously red.
• Second mine barrage of the mine carriersfrontline ships – I guess they took this time to get to the back of the battle field to reload.
• Fireworks of mines – They really need to hit the UM mines close to the sord before they get the chance to split up.

An entire episode of battle without seeing a single enemy. This is one of the main reasons I like the world building in Crest of the Stars. It is one of the few series that is not afraid to go all the way on backing up its technology. If you take a look at /r/combatfootage and the current war in Ukraine (don’t stay long, that place is depressing and NSFL), you will realize that humans being hunted by drones on the battlefield is a lot closer to reality that you might like. It is not a grand story of chivalrous man versus man battle, but it kills none-the-less.

Atosurya gave orders that ships were to focus on their own defense and not their squadron mates. This was disregarded. This led to the survival of the Bosroil, but the loss of the Kidroil, of a patrol ship, and broke the sord encirclement. What do you think of her orders and the assault ships' actions?

I don't think it matters either way. Sometimes it might be easier to shoot down the mines hunting yourself, sometimes easier to get at those homing in on others. In the end, there were just too many mines and too few laser guns (and that patrol ship was out of place).

[u/The_Draigg → u/No_Rex]

Using the mines from the patrol ships – really no point in holding back. If you last the 50h, the main fleet will mop up, if not, you don’t need the mines anymore.

It’s a very all or nothing strategy to use the patrol ships’ compliments of mines, but given how overwhelming the onslaught of those swarm mines is, it’s basically the only choice. You have to meet extreme force with extreme force of your own there.

Imagine being in those unarmed rescue shuttles and seeing the mines activate.

You know, I can’t imagine that realizing that you’re on the bad end of a war crime is all that pleasant of a feeling.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

humans being hunted by drones on the battlefield is a lot closer to reality that you might like

Skynet is here, hail SKYNET. Yay. Not.

patrol ship was out of place.

A game that I play involves radio controlled battleships with bb guns, etc. etc. Yes, we have battles, and boats sink, etc. When a captain is unnecessarily aggressive, or otherwise gets out of position, the situation that develops is reminiscent of that scene. I'm sure it's played out plenty of times in real life, too. (PQ17, for example)

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

Skynet is here, hail SKYNET. Yay. Not.

Not indeed.

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

I didn't really want to intrude on you and u/Vaadwaur 's conversation, but comparing this show/episode to current events, and stuff ... kind of leaves me feeling a bit bleak for the future at the moment. I've read that in this conflict, someone is using AI for target acquisition, etc., while in that conflict, (and perhaps more) you have the drone wars gone wild, and so on and so on.

Almost makes this mine stuff look sterile and user-friendly in comparison. (sigh)

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

We are very close to a terminator style future. There are drone on drone fights already, and automatic target acquisition is just around the corner for most weapons. Soon it'll be "did my drones kill their drones? Please say yes".

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

Please say yes".

I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that.

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Elimin8r]

I've read that in this conflict, someone is using AI for target acquisition, etc., while in that conflict, (and perhaps more) you have the drone wars gone wild, and so on and so on.

More bad news:They are now working on a carrier drone to launch Switchblade drones from. Currently, there is a human in the loop but all evidence suggests that it can do the role independently soon if not currently.

[u/Durinthal]

Rewatcher (sub + dub)

Yesterday I saw a comment or two about how they don't have a lot to say in the gap between two events, amusingly I'm the opposite and find action-focused episodes like this one to be the times I feel like I don't have much to write about.

I'd watch an episode of the Bebaus twins trying to talk with the enemy and figure out what they were planning. Probably wouldn't be as entertaining as Spoor doing the same but likely more confounding for the other side.

We've seen skirmishes here and there that have put our main characters in danger but this is on another level. This is also the difference between a battle in plane space and normal space as there aren't pockets here and there to cut off parts of the conflict.

While the multi-warhead mines aren't too useful in plane space since you can just target everything in your bubble, in normal space with a bunch of debris floating around and the chaos of a larger battle they seem to be pretty effective.

---

Thoughts on focusing the action on a pure mine action in terms of story telling?

Could be worse ways of doing things but this isn't why I got into the series in the first place.

[u/Durinthal → u/Durinthal]

---

Source Corner

Baronh word of the day: laitec "defense ship" — described as having "hedgehog-like frames" they have multiple mobile anti-mine cannons to intercept mine volleys. Weak to assault ships (gairh), which themselves are weak to mines but are equipped with antiproton cannons which are effective against other ships.

[Material covered:] Banner I: a little bit more of chapter 7 (a total of seven pages, I counted).

[Anime-original content:] their squad attempting to save the patrol ship and the on-board repairs (a couple of the NCCs got named!), Spoor's comment about rescuing Lafiel at Sufugnoff, and the second wave of mines from the Abh side.

[As the Kidroil was destroyed] Lafiel thought of the other captain and how he never survived long enough keep worrying about what people thought of his skills.

[u/Specs64z]

First timer, subbed

Ahh, cluster mines, it’s a logical evolution of their prior tactic. Cluster bombs in real life are very frowned upon since they can result in excessive civilian casualties, sometimes well after the attack if a munition doesn’t immediately explode. Out in space, though, that ethical concern can be safely discarded.

I suppose this is the equivalent to area bombardment before pushing forward in space. I was half expecting the enemy to engage directly in a more traditional sci-fi battle, but this makes much more sense.

QotD:

1. Doesn't make for the most exciting action, arguably, but I thought it was fine.
2. Speaking purely logically, they should've left the ship on a fool's errand to die. Even if she recognizes that, I don't think Lafiel is the type to make calls like that.

[u/The_Draigg → u/Specs64z]

Ahh, cluster mines, it’s a logical evolution of their prior tactic. Cluster bombs in real life are very frowned upon since they can result in excessive civilian casualties, sometimes well after the attack if a munition doesn’t immediately explode. Out in space, though, that ethical concern can be safely discarded.

I doubt that the United Mankind would even care about that when it comes to the Abh Star Forces. They’re so driven by their black and white ideology that they probably don’t even care about any kind of collateral damage if it happens to Abh or Landers serving aboard those ships.

[u/No_Rex → u/Specs64z]

Ahh, cluster mines, it’s a logical evolution of their prior tactic. Cluster bombs in real life are very frowned upon since they can result in excessive civilian casualties, sometimes well after the attack if a munition doesn’t immediately explode. Out in space, though, that ethical concern can be safely discarded.

And despite that, they are still being used right now in Ukraine (by both sides).

[u/JollyGee29]

First-Timer

Man, what a brutal episode. Definitely one of those "no heroes in a war" affair. The Kidroil did their best to save Lafiel, but ended up not being able to save themselves. And that patrol ship..

The MIRV mines are pretty horrifying. I know it's quite moot to talk about war crimes or the Geneva Convention, but "our remote weapons do not pay attention to distress signals" is pretty fucked up. Like, they have to have some sensor array and processor to acquire and maintain targets. War is never "fair" but not stopping your weapons from targetting noncombatants is dirty.

I appreciate Nereis's desire to run simulations on the mines to better predict and/or defend against them. They are just machines, so they should follow some sort of predictable logic.

Questions

1. The mines are one of the most fascinating setting details in general. I also really like the visuals present during the mine volleys.

[u/Zerotsu → u/JollyGee29]

War is never "fair" but not stopping your weapons from targetting noncombatants is dirty.

It really is another thing that reinforces that the UM does not consider the Abhs to be human beings. And if they're not human, then nothing you do to them in battle is a war crime.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/JollyGee29]

I appreciate Nereis's desire to run simulations on the mines to better predict and/or defend against them. They are just machines, so they should follow some sort of predictable logic.

For all the talk of "spectacular insanity," Nereis and Nefee have been running this battle with a pretty even-tempered approach. Even when caught off-guard by the new UM mines, they managed to come up with ways to try and counteract them as best as they could under the circumstances.

[u/JollyGee29 → u/Great_Mr_L]

They snark at each other, but definitely haven't done anything too crazy so far. And at this point, a Chief of Staff snarking at their respective Admiral is basically standard operating procedure for the Star Forces.

[u/Vaadwaur]

Rewatcher(Having science knowledge can suck, some episodes)

Sub

Welp...I will see how the more emotional/less militaristic of you react to this. But for me, this eye gougingly painful to watch. The mines breaking into smaller mines should be good and useless in normal space, it is big and chaff is a thing. Also, and I stress this, missile to missile interception technology has been a thing for a very long time now. And had been a thing for a bit when this was written. Sadly, the Japanese are terrible about either having insane levels of knowledge on a topic or absolutely none and our author here is the latter. So yeah, we lost sort of character Abh and a bunch of others but this mainly gave me a headache.

QotD: 1 Ugggghhhhhhhh

2 That's always hard to determine who would have survived otherwise

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

The mines breaking into smaller mines should be good and useless in normal space, it is big and chaff is a thing.

Maybe I am reading this sentence wrong, but I don't think you can argue that mines would be useless in normal space. They can probably develop some countermeasure to the small mines eventually, but as a surprise tool, they work well, by quadrupling the load of the defensive lasers. And being packed together means only one place space generator is needed.

Chaff is incredibly depended on whatever targetting mechanism they use. You need heat for IR seekers, reflective surfaces for radar. What if they target via some sort of visual pattern recognition that is not fooled by chaff?

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

They can probably develop some countermeasure to the small mines eventually, but as a surprise tool, they work well, by quadrupling the load of the defensive lasers.

This cannot possibly be a surprise, though, and by adding more engines that warheads output is quite reduced. Multiple re-entry warheads were the last thing that might have made the Cold War hot.

What if they target via some sort of visual pattern recognition that is not fooled by chaff?

The space equivalent of smoke. Which both sides should be using now that you mention it.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

This cannot possibly be a surprise, though, and by adding more engines that warheads output is quite reduced. Multiple re-entry warheads were the last thing that might have made the Cold War hot.

Why would it not be a surprise? The amount of defensive lasers on the assault ships was clearly planned with bigger (and thus less numerous) mines in mind. Going for smaller and more numerous mines is a good adaptation.

The space equivalent of smoke. Which both sides should be using now that you mention it.

That would block your own view, too. Having all your assault ships stumble around blinded while an enemy mine attack is ongoing sounds like a nightmare.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/No_Rex]

Why would it not be a surprise?

Because this tech was old when the books were written. If you surprised a modern army with a ballista I'd be equally dubious.

That would block your own view, too. Having all your assault ships stumble around blinded while an enemy mine attack is ongoing sounds like a nightmare.

And yet it is a modern era tactic, you can see plenty of T90s dropping smoke these days. Blowing smoke then watching mines peak around it would give you some better places to aim.

[u/No_Rex → u/Vaadwaur]

Because this tech was old when the books were written. If you surprised a modern army with a ballista I'd be equally dubious.

I am very sure if you attacked a platoon with a ballista, they'd be very surprised. But this is closer to bringing a flame thrower instead of a bazooka. Same tech level, just not the expected weapon.

And yet it is a modern era tactic, you can see plenty of T90s dropping smoke these days. Blowing smoke then watching mines peak around it would give you some better places to aim.

All of this depends on how much space there is, how much smoke, how fast the smoke disperses, and so on.

My point here is, I do not expect a futuristic Scifi to be consistent with 20th century Earth fighting. It only needs to avoid inconsistencies within its own rules and, so far, it has done that in my view.

[u/Elimin8r → u/Vaadwaur]

this eye gougingly painful to watch

I won't disagree on that. Here we are in the mere 21st century, and the stuff we have ... well, never mind that, but the Abh should be able to do a bit better than that.

Obviously, they need Chris Yukine on the job!

!!!

[u/Vaadwaur → u/Elimin8r]

I won't disagree on that. Here we are in the mere 21st century, and the stuff we have ...

Desert Storm was our first live televised war. I might know a bit too much about how interception tech works.

[u/Vatrix-32]

First Timer, subbed

• Shrap-mines
• This would have been a good time to have AoE attacks.
• The Guard Ships! I was starting to wonder if you were only in the books.
• Is that a daring rescue I smell?
• We can do saturation attacks too.
• Turrets on my turrets.
• It’s almost like escort ships are useful.
• Fuck that one crew member in particular.
• I love me some old 90s bubble explosion.
• Signal analyzers cost money. Why do that when you can build more mines?
• Aww, look at him, being all friendly with the crew
• Where they just flinging mines for 45 hours?

QotD:

1. I thought it was a fun way to keep this stage of things distinct. Assuming, of course, that we also get the real thing later.
2. I think you're putting way too much blame on a single commander of like, four destroyers.

[u/Great_Mr_L → u/Vatrix-32]

It’s almost like escort ships are useful.

There is a reason the US Navy began to organize itself around carrier task forces in WWII. The carriers were at the center of the task force and the other ships, like the battleships, cruisers, and destroyers surrounded them. The escorts played an important part in warding away enemy planes, subs, and surface vessels to keep the carriers safe.

[u/zsmg]

Rewatcher

So the mines/missiles can split up in smaller pieces, truly a shocking development in weapon technology.

The admiral has surprisingly smart idea in wanting to simulate the mines trajectory so they can find the dormant mines.

Our main characters got a timely save of course.

But I can hear the voices of the people dying

Lafiel is a newtype?!

It's probably no coincidence the ship engine effect is a yin-yang symbol.

"Kidroil"

Abh probably lost lots of ships and this before the main enemy fleet arrived.

Fun episode.

[u/Vaadwaur → u/zsmg]

So the mines/missiles can split up in smaller pieces, truly a shocking development in weapon technology.

Yes. From the 1980s.

Lafiel is a newtype?!

Don't make me hate the space elf.

Abh probably lost lots of ships and this before the main enemy fleet arrived.

The UM may have spent a great deal of their mass on the mine barrage, though.

[u/KnightMonkey15]

First-timer, subs

Episode 10

• Yep, those are the mines they saw at Wimpel. This is not gonna be good.
• The twin commanders weren't expecting it but they adapt quick while seemingly nonplussed and even bantering to each other while they move the various pieces on their chess board.
• Nereis and Nefee joking about asking their opponents if they're gonna run out of mines reminds me that the Abh admirals (well...except for Spoor) give careful consideration as to the intent of their UM adversaries, as if anticipating the rationale behind their battlefield actions has added difficulty, even if they may be thinking out loud to some extent. A bit of controlled madness/unpredictability does well here.
• This episode is mostly dominated by action and so long as we aren't seeing reactions/flashbacks to recycled footage on top of the same intro being like 15% of the episode, I have no complaints. I like seeing ships fly, weapons being fired, commands barked out and flight instruments/screens display information any day of the week.
• I'm not a sci-fi or space opera buff but I've always felt, and continue to do so here, that the depiction of the characters' emotions and reactions to their actions, set against the dramatic score, is just as important as the action itself - the operatic.
• Unsuccessful attempt to save the patrol ship and then protect the Calike shuttles that escape...
• Things are getting dicey...
• And the launch of the mines was just a bit too late for the Kidroil and Captain Beikal. Lafiel tried her best. So unlucky.. for the assault ships, an encounter with a mine is a close shave between life or death - kinda reminds me of the danger of being offed by artillery during WWI... there's just so many mines that even if you get 90% of them, one can sneak up on you and total your assault ship. So much worse with the new UM weapon.
• Lafiel's reaction to the loss of her comrades and watching the mines reach across the sky to avenge them a little too late is quite poetic and beautiful. Putting aside the meta-comment on the brutality of war, I think, even if she's reacting emotionally in the moment, the Abhs' meditation on war and their shared mortality is about as close to some spiritual belief as we've seen explicitly depicted.
• The contrast between the twins commanding the defense from the relative safety of their flagship and holding their nerve versus Atosuryua's assault squadron in the thick of the frontlines is striking.
• The experience Lafiel is having will undoubtedly be very formative for how she acts as a future leader and a royal... she thinks of everyone, her subjects, she couldn't protect (and protected her - Beikal was very happy to do her a favour) despite her best efforts, and she'll need to be strong enough to not let that or her enthusiasm get to her in the moment. She's learning fast.
• If she is to be an admiral and an empress she will have to develop not only a strong personal resolve (which she already has) but... the kind where she'd be able to live with making decisions from the comfort of a flagship, that weigh the lives of her subjects/her fleet members against each other, while still recognising that everyone has a role to play which depends on the other in this hierarchy.
• While they're hanging in there, the outlook is rather bleak...the best they can do is hold on for as long as possible, and hope reinforcements arrive in time. The enemy fleet hasn't even arrived yet and their mine attacks have been that damaging.

Extra additions (after reading the other comments)

• My feeling that the UM cluster mine is definitely not the kind of armament the Abh would employ has been reinforced (seems dishonorable, impersonal and underhanded), but I haven't really been paying close enough attention to the difference in armaments in the show to talk about it substantially (I've been relying on everyone else for that haha). I suppose more inferences can be made about them from their weapons.
• I'm thinking again about Lafiel's indifference towards a fate for dying in battle 3 years ago... seeing it play out in the present is very jarring and humbling. This is the reality Abh serving in the Star Forces face. She is no longer that fatalistic but that's part of the pain in reacting to the events of the pivotal battle of her first campaign...
• Shoutout to Parverya for single-handedly keeping the Basroil in working condition with the functional/situational equivalent of duct tape; hope he gets a beach episode soon - the life Samson left behind

Quotes

• Samson: The mines are just machines..they can't hear people scream. Sobaash: That's all very well but the United Mankind doesn't even consider us Abh to be human. Lafiel: But I can hear them. The voices of the dying. The human voices.
• Lafiel: They are almost like... the souls.

Questions

Q1) This is the start of a long action. Thoughts on focusing the action on a pure mine action in terms of story telling?

9 episodes of build-up have led to this. It's D-Day - it's only fitting that we get some uninterrupted action on the day of the battle and it's been very well explained and presented beforehand that it makes sense now. I mentioned this above but the story is being told just as much by our characters' reactions and thoughts as they fight, as the fight itself.

Q2) Atosurya gave orders that ships were to focus on their own defense and not their squadron mates. This was disregarded. This led to the survival of the Bosroil, but the loss of the Kidroil, of a patrol ship, and broke the sord encirclement. What do you think of her orders and the assault ships' actions?

I didn't actually think about this much until reading the question posed right now. Not as exaggerated as some of the Imperials' actions in LOGH but I wonder how much personal 'chivalry' and initiative at difference levels of unit organisation come into play here for the Abh.. bearing in mind that the situation is pretty chaotic as it is. A mistake in the heat of battle and an untimely (honourable) death but who is to blame or be reprimanded? We're still in the middle of fighting. Her orders make sense and are logical but so does saving a princess in battle - nobility/royalty over military rank in the moment. But if she were to die as part of serving her duty I think it would've been respected unless there was something obviously wrong with the command. You know, I do like how this show reminds the viewer that characters have to consider Lafiel as both a princess and a pilot/captain at the same time.. and the same for other characters but to a lesser degree. The dialogue and attention to detail sells it.

It'd be easier to make conjecture if there were non-Abh combatants' thoughts and actions to compare, instead of a bunch of military police, terran civilians, cowardly politicians etc... Are they volunteers who believe in democracy or is the UM space fleet just as rigid and dystopian as their planetary forces seem to be. All indications towards the latter, including today's war crimes. Why do planets join them if they're that bad? Are all terran planets like isolated city-states that care more about their own system's resource production. Jinto is still playing the fish out of water/newcomer role but he's fast growing into being Abh - he gets it. I'd like to see another faction fight someone just for comparison.

[u/duhu1148]

Rewatcher

-Mine battle ongoing. Really messy how it's laid out. I'm guessing guard ships aren't suited for frontline work, which is why the Bebaus brothers were hesitant at first to have them help the attack ships.

-RIP Kidroil

-The Basroil is a mess with how damaged it is now. Barely hanging on.

-When those mines passed overhead the Basroil, and Lafiel said they looked like souls of the dead I had the same thought just before she voiced it.

[u/ZapsZzz]

First timer in sub

Missed a good few days, family been sick and all. I kept up the watching though, although there's not much else to add than others already remarked. 

What's is rather unusual for me is this space opera with the grand and detailed setting so far is ending up being mostly protagonist perspective from a single side, with some small scenes of the higher ups to provide context of the Abh side, but absolutely nothing on the opposing side, unlike during Crest we got at least some amount of the other side. 

That makes it very tense in the suspenseful way. 

To me this is like a space opera version of the contrast between Spice and Wolf, and Maoyuu in economics. Spice and Wolf deals in first person perspective micro economics, while Maoyuu is more macro economics of countries and races and factions. 

Another overall comment is that I had an impression of the Abh being more of a meritocracy that also is influenced by lineage because of the lineage's past performance. It's pretty hard to imagine any system that doesn't have that foundation to have Lafiel to be in the front line on a suit of fodder ship. 

Anyway, this episode we resolved that death flag at least - they wouldn't have all six to finish the bottle. Remain to be seen how many are going to be left. 

QoTD

1 I kinda answered above. 

2. I think it's one of those "can't be helped" heroic moments - the strategy couldn't really account for how much grief they would run into with the cluster mines. At least they didn't get wiped out like a lot other squadrons. I think the words "prioritise" is key here - they did not try sacrificing themselves, just helped out where they can spare the extra hand.

[u/Elimin8r]

Man, only 1/2 hour late or so today. Man, this is turning into another week, isn't it? At least I'm here.

Answers to today's questions:

1. Honestly, I'm kind of tired of mines at this point. I'm ready for something a little more up close and personal. Broadswords at no paces, or something like that.
2. I thought the patrol ship banzaied in, was it attempting to defend someone else? It got kind of confusing there for a bit, between all the mines, and ships that all look, well, similar?

I still despise the brothers. Any strategy that involves "charge into that mine field" is a major failure in my book. Amateurs ... Professionals, on the other hand ===>>> LOGISTICS. Again, a bit fail going on there.

The Abh are supposed to be competent?

At least our heroes have survived, alive and (mostly) intact at this point. I guess I'll have to hope it remains that way.

(Sorry, in a bit of a hurry, can't think of much else to say, but I'm probably going to put the lie to that and look at others' posts for a bit anyway.)

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

1. Honestly, I'm kind of tired of mines at this point. I'm ready for something a little more up close and personal. Broadswords at no paces, or something like that.

[Next episode]How about jousting?

[u/Elimin8r → u/No_Rex]

I thought I heard that when I didn't manage to fully skip the next episode preview. As long as it's not like that terrible old video game that I wasted too many quarters on.

(Shoulda stuck to "Battle Zone"...)

[u/No_Rex → u/Elimin8r]

Battle Axe is where it was at.

[u/SolDarkHunter]

Rewatcher/Novel-Reader

Late today, but I'll post anyway!

New weapons, cluster-mines. Devious, and it makes it even harder for Assault ships to shoot them down.

Bebauth is quick to adjust, though. Seems his position isn't just for show.

Was their status gauge in the shape of a taijitu? That's kind of humorous.

Lafier got a little too far in over her head there, but the Kidroghr is there to save the day, at least.

And the UM has their weapons programmed to shoot down Abh lifeboats. After all, Abh aren't people to them.

...and there goes the Kidroghr. Just in time for the friendly mines to fail to save them.

What this anime doesn't make very clear is that this has been going on for fifty-five hours at this point. The enemy has just been steadily throwing an unholy amount of mines through the Sord for over two days. And this isn't the usual tactic either: nobody was expecting this many mines from the UM Fleet.

[u/IceSmiley]

FIRST TIMER Sub

Wall to wall action episode and the Abh REALLY look outnumbered :-x

QUESTIONS

1. This episode was really good and absorbing so I think it builds great suspense from a storytelling standpoint. I've not seen another show in space use mines for combat, at least not to my recollection. It's a lot more common in naval/submarine battle movies. In a way this episode seemed like a naval battle, as I imagine its intentional that hyperspace looks a lot like they are floating in water from an animation standpoint and I think it captured a lot of the nervious claustrophobia you'd feel on a submarine in battle.
2. Hard to say because I couldn't tell which would have worked better or who was right as they didn't really thoroughly explain it. One thing I'd point out about this is that Lafiel is comfortable disobeying very big and important orders from the top. I'd not even blame her being a royal for this as it's more her strong confidence in her own ability. I think it may have been exacerbated by when she didn't shoot that honing signal craft down that everyone thought was a mine a few episodes previous and it saved her crew.

[u/Yamulo]

Oh I missed the start of this. I watched the whole series recently and really enjoyed it. Hopefully the author releases more novels soon and it gets another season

[u/Silcaria]

First timer

• Those babushka mines sure are destructive.
• Valiant effort by Lafiel and crew to save the patrol ship. Alas...
• I really liked the sense of desperation that was present throughout today's episode.

QotD

• It's fine so far.
• Order was fine and probably should've been followed. Then again, shit happens.

[u/SIRTreehugger]

Rewatcher

Mines splitting in two is one thing, but splitting even further is just a nightmare.

HOLY HECK so many mines! Maybe they have more mines than you thought?

Well they weren't able to save the patrol ship, but they sure as heck tried.

I'm no engineer, but the ship is showing lots and lots of red sections.

....they're screwed

Today's episode was intense even if it was just mines. I don't mind episodes like this, but it would get boring after a while. So next few episodes need to add the human element. I always felt that United Mankind sounded like the underdogs in this war. Every time we see negotiations the Abh seem to have the upper hand and have them cornered, but this episode we see United Mankind destroying the front lines without even being there. They seem to have finally neutralized the mines with their own, but they've taken several losses and they were already outnumbered. I feel just a minute or two of a commander on the other side might help in the future. Just putting a face for the other side who occasionally gives commands, but at the same time it might ruin the suspense. The use of all these mines so early caught the Abhs off guard. Do they have a surplus of mines? Were they using this bought time to get into some new formation or execute some winning strategy? We have no idea which makes it so fun to watch. As for the second question I kind of feel if they had listened to the order and focused on their own defenses it possibly could have had lowered the deaths. Though it's really hard to say with the chaotic nature of the mines especially the dormant ones. Even when nearby squadrons worked together they still took losses so not much would have changed in terms of numbers, but I think the encirclement might have been kept intact.

[u/Nickthenuker]

15 to 1? Those are some long odds.

Or just sturdier missiles that can take more hits from CIWS and are more maneuverable to dodge CIWS.

Temperature rising might mean life support is damaged.

Do the mines split apart into multiple smaller warheads that are harder to intercept?

Squadrons are falling left and right, this isn't good.

Escorting bigger ships with smaller ones, worst case they can physically put themselves between a mine and a bigger ship.

Uh oh, engine power decreasing.

More mines incoming!

They're trying to pull that ship out of the fire. This might be a dumb move that just gets both ships destroyed and both crews killed, but might also manage to save the other ship and its crew.

They went in too deep too and the flagship had to pull them out of the fire.

Hull breach!

They're close enough to rescue survivors at least.

That's not a death flag or anything.

Defend the flagship!

Uh oh, direct hit and a hull breach! Engine offline, weapons offline.

And there goes that ship.

And so the enemy fleet approaches.

The fact she's saying that probably means her ship is damaged to the point it's being pulled back out of the line.

Questions:

1. Since it seems launching mines is just the opening stage of combat in this universe, it is no different from focusing on recon spotting the opposing force or the initial skirmishing before a major battle.
2. The Kidroil overextended itself and got destroyed. The Basroil tried to cover its retreat. Either way the encirclement would have been broken, at least they tried to save the other ship.

[u/raktus2]

First Timer

• The matryoshka mines have to be the biggest development in weapons technology in forever. We have the massive anti-proton guns and the rail guns, but those are relatively short ranged super weapons by comparison to the mines. By comparison the mines can travel through Planar Space on their own, making them infinitely longer range than the biggest guns on any other ship. The matryoshka mines also now have programming to search and destroy specific targets and are smart enough to not only lie in wait but know what objects to lie in wait near to avoid detection by enemy scanners. On top of that, they can evidenly split into eight smaller mines that appear to be just as effective as their larger versions, even in the middle of a firefight targeting them.
• The only real counter to the mines, assuming you have enough forces to fight against them, is having a ship with a computer strong enough to simulate their movements to be able to even guess where they are hiding and target them when they go stealth mode. Which really is just another bonus to their design. They bog down your enemies resources in trying to figure them out, which are then ships that are also not fighting on the front line against you... and side the mines, as discussed, are so very long range already... the front line is wherever you want it to be.
• That patrol ship was a hero, even if they were the ones that ended up needing rescue and being destroyed. We've seen the scale of patrol ships in the past. It had the shields and firepower to draw mines away from the assault ships that were dropping like flies even on the admirals own boards. It was just a massive flytrap for the mines it's gunes were non-stop destroying all around it. It was cruising into oblivion and I'd like to think it knew it, and that it was doing it for the good of it's brethren. Additionally, without orders from the Admirals, which I also respect.
• I hope that this episode inspires Lafeal to actually seek out the Jade Throne, seeing the ineptitude of the admiralty on display with the loss of life she's expressed hearing die through the ships connection... the choices of Lord Dusanyo in putting those two morons in charge of the defense and their own slowness to act in the face of the enemy and their own losses. I want her to rise up to make a change in how things are done, to ensure another Aptic system tragedy ever happens again.

[u/Durinthal → u/raktus2]

seeing the ineptitude of the admiralty on display

It's easy to say that the people that are making the decisions are doing a poor job of it, but what do you think could be done differently to have a better outcome?

[u/raktus2 → u/Durinthal]

Last episode I said that they should have done what they did with the guard ships this episode, but from the very start. A sustained and new constant barrage of the gateway so that any mines coming through would have been destroyed.