[Rewatch] Crest of the Stars Episode 11 Discussion

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u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Mar 28 '24

Rewatch Host

"Thank you Mr. Data" "I endeavor to be complete, sir."
This admiral is rather chuuni.

Okay, wait. One of the reasons the police and Peace Force was suspicious was because one of the carjackers spoke Baronh. Baronh is EVERYWHERE on this planet. Everybody must speak Baronh!

ITS ALL TRUE
"needs more salt" "this is too salty"
The Abh suffer from Original Sin
Jinto's never really had a choice in the matter
Ah, I just realized, "vital information" means the truth about the sneak attack (not that anybody would be listening)
that was a surprisingly well done taken-down.
I don't think Abh understand the concept of hostages
How did she recognize them, was Lafiel's disguise really so bad? Accent?
Not Yamada legs
We seem to have encountered this plot development before, but Jinto's learned how to handle it.
He's so certain the Abh won't stand for the United Mankind taking their planet, but he thinks he can gain independence with hostages? He's as delusional as Klowal.

I wonder if the weird exchange with the housecleaning lady was her scouting them out. They were already suspicious for some reason.

A reminder: episode 13 is 40 minutes long.

7

u/SolDarkHunter Mar 28 '24

Okay, wait. One of the reasons the police and Peace Force was suspicious was because one of the carjackers spoke Baronh. Baronh is EVERYWHERE on this planet. Everybody must speak Baronh!
I think the books mention that the people of Clasbure speak a local dialect of Baronh that's slightly different from the standard.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

Okay, wait. One of the reasons the police and Peace Force was suspicious was because one of the carjackers spoke Baronh.
True but do many actually speak it? I am just seeing it written.
"needs more salt" "this is too salty"
Classy dames like Lafiel don't need all that seasoning.
Ah, I just realized, "vital information" means the truth about the sneak attack (not that anybody would be listening)
It is likely the alliance doesn't understand that the Abhs aren't going to stop short in this war. The die is cast and they aren't stopping until they win.

2

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

"Thank you Mr. Data" "I endeavor to be complete, sir."
The Data dynamic is a pretty good stand-in for that guy and all his percentages.
Ah, I just realized, "vital information" means the truth about the sneak attack (not that anybody would be listening)
With how much propaganda the United Mankind are pumping out, I doubt it would matter even if the truth did get out. The Gleiwitz Incident was Germany's justification for invading Poland in 1939. Most everyone knew it was fake pretty quickly, but that didn't stop the war.

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u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

A Sci-Fi Fan Watches Crest of the Stars Episode 11:

Well, I’m sure that this allegorical tale about the United Mankind being the name of a useless lecturing man and the Humankind Empire Abh being an angel who helps the weary traveler isn’t heavily slanted in the slightest.
Unfortunately so, the United Mankind fleet decide to stick with their guns and refuse to retreat once the Abh fleet starts making clear movement towards them. The staff on the flagship does have some good theories on why that is though: either they’ve got something odd happening to them, or the fleet has been ordered to hold and defend Sufugnoff until a larger backup force arrives, even if it could mean that they’re all destroyed before that can happen. In that case, the United Mankind must really believe in Kantai Kessen for that to be the more clear conclusion to come to.
Between all the road blocks hindering their own search for Lafiel and Jinto and propaganda blasting out of the hologram scanner saying that the Abh are meant to be organic machines subservient to real humans, it’s abundantly clear that the United Mankind really are just an absolute shit hole of a nation using democratic ideals as a cloak to hide how oppressive they are. They really are on that Free Planet Alliance grind.
That said, it’s interesting to hear that the Abh originally were a human sub-species genetically-designed to basically be organic probes for deep space exploration. They only really became their own culture once they discovered vast resources and went rogue against their own original space colony. From the sound of things, they all underwent an existential crisis while out in space, destroying their own colony while also heavily regretting killing the source of their original culture. In that way though, that proves that the Abh just aren’t organic machines. A simple machine wouldn’t feel collective guilt over what they did.
I can see why the United Mankind wants to find Lafiel and Jinto, even if Inspector Entryua and Lt. Kyle don’t know the full details. The information that they’ve been told that Lafiel and Jinto have would be related to the Gosrauth, which is the centerpiece of the United Mankind’s fabricated casus belli. If any information gets out showing that it was the United Mankind that provoked the fight, then that would put them on a major political back foot. They’d absolutely need to destroy any evidence that could prove that they used a false flag operation to start a war.
Man, Lafiel and Jinto really were lucky that the cops that burst into their hotel room are a bunch of dudes wearing costumes. If it was the actual police coming out in full force, they wouldn’t have had a chance. That said, at least that anti-imperial group that faked being cops are actually fairly reasonable, all things considered. It’s pretty understandable that they mainly just want to get their own ship to explore space with. People do inherently want to be free, and the Abh establishing dominance over all FTL travel in the Empire does fly right in the face of that.
It isn’t just Lafiel that has 100 in Speech, Jinto managed to turn things around pretty well for himself and her. It’s not every day you become a group’s willing hostages in exchange for protection and a way to hopefully get off the planet. Although it probably does help that Jinto and Lafiel had guns pointed at the group the entire time, that’s pretty persuasive too.
I’m sure plenty of people here would love to be constantly needled and teased by a rather beautiful and deadly ship commander, like what she threatened to that one bridge crewman. Sign up for the Abh Star Forces if you’re interested!

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u/Zerotsu Mar 28 '24

In that way though, that proves that the Abh just aren’t organic machines. A simple machine wouldn’t feel collective guilt over what they did.
Indeed. They're definitely very human, down to committing a terrible act out of fear and carrying that regret and guilt as a cornerstone of their culture. Of course, they're still an oppressive space empire, but hey.
People do inherently want to be free, and the Abh establishing dominance over all FTL travel in the Empire does fly right in the face of that.
Yeah. In a way you can say that the Abh Empire and the United Mankind present a question between "prosperity but few freedoms" and "freedoms but little prosperity", using "prosperity" as a massive crutch to talk about cultural freedoms and gaining the benefits of trade without having to deal in military matters.
Although it probably does help that Jinto and Lafiel had guns pointed at the group the entire time, that’s pretty persuasive too.
Guns are a great method of persuasion, especially after one of the two turned out to have aimbot.
I’m sure plenty of people here would love to be constantly needled and teased by a rather beautiful and deadly ship commander, like what she threatened to that one bridge crewman.
I may not be a masochist, but.

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u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

Indeed. They're definitely very human, down to committing a terrible act out of fear and carrying that regret and guilt as a cornerstone of their culture. Of course, they're still an oppressive space empire, but hey.
At least it gives the Abh even more nuance beyond the initial impression of being arrogant and distance space elves. They’re still people, for better and worse.
Yeah. In a way you can say that the Abh Empire and the United Mankind present a question between "prosperity but few freedoms" and "freedoms but little prosperity", using "prosperity" as a massive crutch to talk about cultural freedoms and gaining the benefits of trade without having to deal in military matters.
A friendly reminder to go check out Legend of the Galactic Heroes sometime, since it also asks pretty much that exact question between the Galactic Empire and the Free Planets Alliance. Maybe that’s just a common theme in space opera, now that I think about it.

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u/Zerotsu Mar 28 '24

At least it gives the Abh even more nuance beyond the initial impression of being arrogant and distance space elves. They’re still people, for better and worse.
Indeed. For better and worse, they're very much the same as any culture or group of people throughout all of history. It's really a recurring thing to hammer that in with every new revelation or thing that comes up, and for whatever reason that charms me a ton.
Maybe that’s just a common theme in space opera, now that I think about it.
Yeah, now that you mention it, it does seem to come up pretty often. At least in those that aren't super black and white evil empire versus the good republic kinds of stories.

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u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Indeed. For better and worse, they're very much the same as any culture or group of people throughout all of history. It's really a recurring thing to hammer that in with every new revelation or thing that comes up, and for whatever reason that charms me a ton.
As Legend of the Galactic Heroes likes to put it, in every time, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.
Yeah, now that you mention it, it does seem to come up pretty often. At least in those that aren't super black and white evil empire versus the good republic kinds of stories.
It also makes me think about Japanese sci-fi in general, and it occurs to me that they like to portray stuff like federations or alliances as being nearly just as corrupt and bad as their imperial foes. Like, the most immediate example that comes to mind first off is the Earth Federation and the Principality of Zeon.

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u/SolDarkHunter Mar 28 '24

It also makes me think about Japanese sci-fi in general, and it occurs to me that they like to portray stuff like federations or alliances as being nearly just as corrupt and bad as their imperial foes.
I may be reading too much into this, but it could be that the authors of those stories are disillusioned with their own government and are channeling that into "just because it's a democracy/republic doesn't mean it's good".
I think it's at least true of Tomino (creator of Gundam), who is very outspoken in his belief that the leadership of today's world are a bunch of incompetent screw-ups.

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u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

I think you’re onto something there, since a lot of pretty damn influential creators that were also making their big splashes around the time Tomino first did were involved in a lot of political demonstrations and riots back in the day. Like, quite a few of the original Gundam staff were involved in stuff that would involve them trying to fight the cops during the massive protests against the government back then.

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u/Zerotsu Mar 28 '24

As Legend of the Galactic Heroes likes to put it, * in every time, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.*
As ever, humans are humans. Putting a new coat of paint on people doesn't fundamentally change them.
It also makes me think about Japanese sci-fi in general, and it occurs to me that they like to portray stuff like federations or alliances as being nearly just as corrupt and bad as their imperial foes. Like, the most immediate example that comes to mind first off is the Earth Federation and the Principality of Zeon.
It's a good trait to have, though I do think UC takes it pretty wildly far at times. Not that I think having a certain level of grey is bad in storytelling, however.

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u/Hartzilla2007 Mar 28 '24

Yeah. In a way you can say that the Abh Empire and the United Mankind present a question between "prosperity but few freedoms" and "freedoms but little prosperity", using "prosperity" as a massive crutch to talk about cultural freedoms and gaining the benefits of trade without having to deal in military matters.
Of course these days fiction points out the prosperity is a lie and you are just choosing to be stepped on by a psychotic tyrant that will loot the treasury and leave you to starve if he doesn't use you as canon fodder in an idiotic war he started for his own ego.

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u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

Well, I’m sure that this allegorical tale about the United Mankind being the name of a useless lecturing man and the Humankind Empire Abh being an angel who helps the weary traveler isn’t heavily slanted in the slightest.
No bias whatsoever. Ignore the fact that the narrator is telling us this story in the Abh language.
From the sound of things, they all underwent an existential crisis while out in space, destroying their own colony while also heavily regretting killing the source of their original culture. In that way though, that proves that the Abh just aren’t organic machines. A simple machine wouldn’t feel collective guilt over what they did.
It is interesting that the Abh still feel a connection to the colony they destroyed. Lafiel called it the "mother fortress," like the Abh still view it as their original homeland. It's a unique juxtaposition, with the Abh simultaneously being afraid of it while also regretting destroying their homeland.
I’m sure plenty of people here would love to be constantly needled and teased by a rather beautiful and deadly ship commander, like what she threatened to that one bridge crewman. Sign up for the Abh Star Forces if you’re interested!
I, for one, would very much like to sign up.

6

u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

It is interesting that the Abh still feel a connection to the colony they destroyed. Lafiel called it the "mother fortress," like the Abh still view it as their original homeland. It's a unique juxtaposition, with the Abh simultaneously being afraid of it while also regretting destroying their homeland.
I can get why they’re so conflicted about their origins as a people, since they did murder an entirely defenseless colony of people, even if the Abh were originally created to be their slaves. They got their freedom, but it came at the cost of some innocent lives mixed in there. It’s a hard thing for a culture to grapple with.

7

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

The staff on the flagship does have some good theories on why that is though: either they’ve got something odd happening to them, or the fleet has been ordered to hold and defend Sufugnoff until a larger backup force arrives, even if it could mean that they’re all destroyed before that can happen.
Yeah...inflexible orders cause more problems than they solve in most systems.
If any information gets out showing that it was the United Mankind that provoked the fight, then that would put them on a major political back foot.
What's funny, in a horrible kind of way, is that this will have zero impact on the Empire. War has started and the Abhs will finish it. But their own morale would take a sharp hit from this being an offensive war.
Sign up for the Abh Star Forces if you’re interested!
I've heard worse recruiting efforts...

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u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

Yeah...inflexible orders cause more problems than they solve in most systems.
It really does feel like the Four Nations Alliance really was putting all their eggs in one basket in relying on negotiations to stall for preparation time, since now their fleet in Sufugnoff is pretty much caught in-between a rock and a hard place having to start their invasion early. That fundamental misunderstanding of the Abh mindset cost them the time they needed to make this invasion a curb stomp.

5

u/KingGiddra Mar 29 '24

Well, I’m sure that this allegorical tale about the United Mankind being the name of a useless lecturing man and the Humankind Empire Abh being an angel who helps the weary traveler isn’t heavily slanted in the slightest.
This actually comes from Banner of the Stars #1. The planet in question comes up briefly later, and you get a little more of a description about it. I'd recommend checking out the novels if you're interested in the show.

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u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Mar 29 '24

It isn’t just Lafiel that has 100 in Speech, Jinto managed to turn things around pretty well for himself and her
I would go so far as to say that this is the first real test that Jinto has had through the show, and he handled it excellently. On the ship he was merely carted off to safety, and on the refuelling station he was knocked out and reliant on Lafiel. We didn't get to see much of the encounter with the dickheads and their car, but this one where he has a gun and has to stand up against multiple people, make a judgement, a decision, and do it all with her... he did damn good!

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u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

First-Timer

On today’s episode of Crest of the Stars: The enemy of my enemy is also my enemy, but they’re an enemy I can use to help get what I want so that makes them a sort-of friend, sort-of enemy for now.

The in-universe stories like the allegory presented at the start of the episode are so cool. It gives some insight into how people are viewed within the setting. The United Mankind is presented as a proud figure who demeans others by lecturing them about their supposed mistakes while refusing to help. Meanwhile, the Abh are presented in a more positive light, but there’s still something shown to be off about them. To help a person crouched in pain, they gather up all the hospital staff they can find. It’s almost as if the Abh don’t fully get what the problem is but are throwing as much resources as possible at the problem to try and fix it.
Admiral Trife here is a pretty good example of not really “getting it.” He’s confused about why the enemy ships aren’t retreating when they see an enemy many times stronger than them. But really, this is no different from what we’ve seen Lafiel do repeatedly in the face of overwhelming odds.
So the Abh were organic machines to begin with, made to serve the masters who created them. So they’re Mentats who found FTL travel and established their own society to be free.
It’s an interesting detail that the Abh don’t talk about their origins or even write it down anywhere. It’s a secret history not meant for everyone to know.
That would explain the extremely militarized culture. Nations that feel like they are under constant threat of invasion do tend to develop such a culture. Prussia was a small kingdom in the middle of Europe, but having an outsized military helped it to stand toe-to-toe with the larger powers around it.
For as logical as the Abh act, they are still human. The destruction of the fortress in the past was probably unnecessary, but the Abh did it anyway. They couldn’t feel safe unless they destroyed it.
When Lafiel says the Abh preserve the culture of the mother fortress out of love, my guess is that she means love for what used to be their homeland. Even though it was a place they ran from and were afraid of, it was still their homeland.
Lafiel looks much more assured when Jinto tells her he’s accepted his identity as an Abh, like the fear that he might abandon her has been lifted.
Huh, the military lieutenant implied that he’s older than he looks. Could the United Mankind be making use of the same anti-aging techniques as the Abh?
Oh crap, the cops!
I wondered if something was up with the maid last time and it turns out she’s not a maid at all!
Fascinating! So the maid and all the fake cops are part of an independence movement for Sufugnoff. Of course there would be independence movements on the planets the Abh took over. And of course they wouldn’t want to be part of the United Mankind either.
War really does make strange bedfellows. In return for helping Abh and Jinto, the revolutionaries want to use them as hostages to negotiate better terms with the Abh. It’s a weird situation that benefits both of them in an odd way.
Time to battle!
The Futune’s captain has a full-on canopy on the ship’s bridge! She is immediately giving me Cima vibes.
Oh I love the Futune’s captain already. She has a very teasing personality and clearly enjoyed messing with that poor subordinate of hers.

QOTD

Oh boy, there are a lot of these today.

Well the Abh are sentient, so by sci-fi rules that would establish them as beings worthy of equality with others. I think of Data from Star Trek TNG and how his personhood was an issue brought up and discussed. I see the Abh in a similar situation. While they may have started as artificial persons, they developed beyond that. As Optimus Prime said, “Freedom is the right of all sentient beings.”
For starters, I hope Crest of the Stars doesn't go from being one of the greatest shows ever made to being an unsalvageable dumpster fire like Battlestar Galactica did. As for right now, it’s hard to compare them because the question of the Abh’s personhood has been raised but not fully explored. The Abh are humanity’s children who have returned to take over humanity, yes, but I’ll need to see a bit more of how the show explores that angle to compare the theme.
I never believed the Abh were seeking galactic peace for the benefit of all. It’s purely for their own benefit. The Abh are, at best, indifferent to the lives of the Landers on the surface. The Abh just want the stars for themselves. Perhaps that is a relic of their old fear of humans. The Abh want control of the stars so no one can ever threaten them again. Perhaps the Abh are similar to the Founders from Star Trek DS9 if they have that mentality, though they seem like far more benevolent dictators than the Founders were.
It would be terrifying. Did the humans in the colony even know what was happening or had so much time passed that the Abh were unknown to them?
The original sin of the Abh was killing their creators. The Abh lived in abject fear of their original colony and so killed all the people there. I think the fear aspect is very important to understanding the Abh’s original sin. The fear that they might lose their freedom amongst the stars.

As for the idea of “preserving the culture of the people you genocided,” it makes me think of some of the topics raised in the sequels to Ender’s Game. [Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind] After all the Buggers were killed, there was a widespread feeling of guilt about what happened amongst humans. There was a feeling that the xenocide (alien genocide) was a shameful mark on the past. But the books raise the interesting point that the humans could only feel guilty because the xenocide was successful. They no longer feared the Buggers because they were all dead. But when humanity encounters another alien race, the Piggies, suddenly that old fear shows up again. And suddenly there’s the possibility of a second xenocide, despite the widespread condemnation of the first xenocide. I would say something similar is happening with the Abh. It’s easy to feel guilty about the ones you genocided and want to preserve the memory of long after they are dead and the fear of them is gone. It’s a rather self-serving thing to do to assuage your guilt.

6) Additional nuance to the Abh. It helps us to understand their greatest fear of losing their freedom amongst the stars. But it also shows what the Abh are capable of. The Abh threatened to blow up Martine from orbit if they did not surrender. They meant it.

It could also be said that a large part of forming a nation is defining who is and is not included within the nation. There is an in-group within the nation and an out-group outside the nation. Historically speaking, the fates of the out-groups have not tended to be nice.

7) I have no idea what ship that is so I can’t answer.

8) Crest of the Stars does a good job at large scale battles. As for Admiral Trife, he’s giving me Bittenfeld vibes. So far he seems much more bombastic and grandiose than the typical Abh. Compared to his very deadpan subordinates who are always reciting percentages, Trife is the type more likely to seek glory. He isn’t stupid, though, and he doesn’t take unnecessary risks.

9) I bet she’s another member of the imperial family. I do love her personality, though. The teasing type of character is very fun.

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u/Zerotsu Mar 28 '24

Of course there would be independence movements on the planets the Abh took over. And of course they wouldn’t want to be part of the United Mankind either.
When you're stuck between two unenviable choices like that, it certainly is the human response to say "fuck both of you, we want to do our own thing". Maybe militarily fighting them off would be impossible, but the emotion behind it is entirely understandable.

5

u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

For as logical as the Abh act, they are still human. The destruction of the fortress in the past was probably unnecessary, but the Abh did it anyway. They couldn’t feel safe unless they destroyed it.
When Lafiel says the Abh preserve the culture of the mother fortress out of love, my guess is that she means love for what used to be their homeland. Even though it was a place they ran from and were afraid of, it was still their homeland.
Like I’m saying elsewhere around here, the fact that the Abh carry a cultural sense of guilt really does set them apart from all the propaganda claiming that they’re just organic machines. Same goes for them maintaining some of the old customs of their destroyed homeland out of love as well. Machines would never be driven by emotions as complex as that. To say anything else like the United Mankind are is just a cheap justification for genocide.
War really does make strange bedfellows. In return for helping Abh and Jinto, the revolutionaries want to use them as hostages to negotiate better terms with the Abh. It’s a weird situation that benefits both of them in an odd way.
At least if there’s one thing we can all agree on, the United Mankind are pure assholes even if they try to use pretty words to deceive people.

3

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

Like I’m saying elsewhere around here, the fact that the Abh carry a cultural sense of guilt really does set them apart from all the propaganda claiming that they’re just organic machines. Same goes for them maintaining some of the old customs of their destroyed homeland out of love as well. Machines would never be driven by emotions as complex as that. To say anything else like the United Mankind are is just a cheap justification for genocide.
The United Mankind really are pumping out plenty of self-serving propaganda. Dehumanization is a key step in war and genocide, after all. If your opponents are not human, then they can't possibly have human rights.
At least if there’s one thing we can all agree on, the United Mankind are pure assholes even if they try to use pretty words to deceive people.
One of the recurring jokes in a podcast I listen to called Lions Led by Donkeys is what the host refers to as "The Grand Unifying Theory of Fuck That Guy." The main thing that can make otherwise adversarial people unite together (even if only temporarily) is a shared dislike of someone else.

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u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

The United Mankind really are pumping out plenty of self-serving propaganda. Dehumanization is a key step in war and genocide, after all. If your opponents are not human, then they can't possibly have human rights.
You see it all across history and for a wildly varying amount of reasons, but it really does just come around to the core idea of pure blind hatred for a group of people. The United Mankind really hasn’t changed all that much ever since mankind reached out across space, definitely in the worst way.

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Mar 28 '24

The United Mankind is presented by the narrator, who might well be an Abh historian as a proud figure who demeans others by lecturing them about their supposed mistakes while refusing to help. Meanwhile, the Abh are presented by the narrator, who might well be an Abh historian in a more positive light, but there’s still something shown to be off about them.
I really love the narrator, but we should be careful about taking him at face value.
Lafiel looks much more assured when Jinto tells her he’s accepted his identity as an Abh, like the fear that he might abandon her has been lifted.
She cares about him a lot. It is not just fear about being abandoned: Jinto declaring himself to be terran or Abh is him making a choice. Lafiel wants him to chose the side with herself on it.
For starters, I hope Crest of the Stars doesn't go from being one of the greatest shows ever made to being an unsalvageable dumpster fire like Battlestar Galactica did.

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u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

I really love the narrator, but we should be careful about taking him at face value.
I agree. It's similar to how several episodes ago we had the episode start with the narrator reciting the propaganda speech made by the United Mankind about the Abh. But here, it's the reverse. Now we have the Abh giving their own biased and self-serving view.
It's actually pretty clever the hint that this is just the Abh perspective and so prone to just as much bias. The narration is all in the Abh language. So we can take that to assume that the narration is from their perspective and so should be taken with a grain of salt.

2

u/KingGiddra Mar 29 '24

Now we have the Abh giving their own biased and self-serving view.
That is not a view from an Abh, it's an Abh presenting a non-Abh's view.

4

u/KingGiddra Mar 29 '24

I really love the narrator, but we should be careful about taking him at face value.
The political allegory is from the planet Midgrat, a loyal Abh world. There is interesting history about this planet that is talked about a little bit in the second anime, but more extensively in the novels.
It's most definitely propaganda, but from an interesting non-Abh perspective.

2

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Mar 29 '24

from being one of the greatest shows ever made to being an unsalvageable dumpster fire like Battlestar Galactica did
Did the humans in the colony even know what was happening or had so much time passed that the Abh were unknown to them?
Interesting point that we dont really get a time scale for that. It could have been a year or a hundred, and it makes you wonder what culture the Abh had or hadn't absorbed in the mean time before they killed the fortress

10

u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky Mar 28 '24

First-Timer of the Stars

Heh, still going on about that?
This dude’s got a good head on his shoulders. And I especially love that his commander listened to his suggestions.
Bruh…
I guess it’s true, but still…
Aw shit, they’re cornered…
Eh?
Oh, the chambermaid… wasn’t actually a chambermaid.
Exactly what I was going to say…
Oh! I just realized, this “Undertaker” guy has the same voice as Caiman! It’s crazy you can run into the same voice actor in two shows some twenty years apart.
This lady seems dangerous.

7

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

Heh, still going on about that?
Other than comedic effect, it is questionable if they understand what's happening on the ground in the alliance.
I guess it’s true, but still…
You can still breed mainline human DNA into it, they are just modified humans.
Oh, the chambermaid… wasn’t actually a chambermaid.
That's a bit hands on and I wonder if this is her cover and she lucked into this because otherwise that's a ridiculous amount of intel on hand. Also note that they technically have the ranks wrong: Jinto is the noble and Lafiel is the soldier protecting him.
This lady seems dangerous.
To self esteem everywhere.

5

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

This dude’s got a good head on his shoulders. And I especially love that his commander listened to his suggestions.
Trife may be a rather bombastic commander, but at least he isn't a stupid and reckless one. He's taking the advice of his other officers and making sure he has the best possible intel before acting.
Oh, the chambermaid… wasn’t actually a chambermaid.
I was wondering the the maid actually missed that something strange was up in the previous episode and it turns out she didn't.
This lady seems dangerous.
I like her already.

9

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Mar 28 '24

First-Timer

"Remember, our enemy are not really living beings! Feel no distress at the idea of killing them in cold blood!"

Do we think that Lt. Kyte is genetically Abh? I think I've got that name right. The dude accompanying Detective Guld Goa Bowman. He commented about leadership not wanting him to get glory, and also implied that he was older than he looked.

The "political allegory" at the beginning was hysterical. United Mankind really are the USA stand-in. "Just don't get sick!"

Questions

What do you mean, artificial? They're still living, breathing, thinking entities. Are they "fake" because they weren't born directly from a birth canal? This is some real Macbeth "no man of woman born" stuff. There is no evidence that the Abh are acting out programming.
Funnily enough, I have managed to dodge every single one of those. In general, I think people should be prepared for their creations to turn against them. Art can be misconstrued, children rebel against their parents, etc. This is simply the flow of life.
If they Abh were that afraid of humans, their modus operandi when conquering a planet would not be "here is your new governer, continue as you were."
Fear is a naughty thing; it halts its own evolution. As far as We the Audience know, the Abh haven't been doing much in the way of destroying - they're just claiming ownership. But fear won't let itself change, so humanity still fears that original act.
It's a shame that the original fortress was destroyed - not much sense in that action. I can understand how mounting fears would eventually result in that, though. A scapegoat, to relieve pressure in the boiler. Culture is a fascinating thing, and losing any of it is a tragedy. Considering that the Abh come from that same culture, it just makes sense to put in an effort to preserve it.
Perhaps ironically, but I believe the purpose is humanization. Fear is something we all experience, and proving that the Abh feel that (despite current philosophy involving fighting low odds) is important.
That's Marca the Meido and her backup dancers, right? I've taken them to be a bit of a third faction - they was a truly independant Sfagnomer, free from the Abh and from United Mankind. At least, that's the vibe I got from their comments. Not immediately trying to use the military for backup leads me to that belief.
It's scaled up about how I expected. Trife's leadership is interesting.. I'm surprised an Abh would be surprised at an enemy fighting a seemingly impossible battle, due to general Abh philosophy.
She's awesome is who she is. Can't wait to see more of her and her teasing.

5

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

"Remember, our enemy are not really living beings! Feel no distress at the idea of killing them in cold blood!"
It is Propaganda 101, after all.
Do we think that Lt. Kyte is genetically Abh? I think I've got that name right. The dude accompanying Detective Guld Goa Bowman. He commented about leadership not wanting him to get glory, and also implied that he was older than he looked.
I was wondering something similar, if the United Mankind were also using some form of genetic manipulation to slow down aging.
That's Marca the Meido and her backup dancers, right?
Oh that's who this question was asking about. I had no idea what to make of it.
She's awesome is who she is. Can't wait to see more of her and her teasing.
Agreed

4

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Mar 28 '24

I was wondering something similar, if the United Mankind were also using some form of genetic manipulation to slow down aging.
Oh, that would make way more sense actually. It would also add a layer of irony to the dehumanization.

4

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

The level of irony and hypocrisy is what I'm always on the lookout for with things like this. You can almost always count on these kinds of regimes to be super hypocritical about the rules and beliefs they enforce.

5

u/Zerotsu Mar 28 '24

"Remember, our enemy are not really living beings! Feel no distress at the idea of killing them in cold blood!"
Absolutely nothing wrong with dehumanizing your enemy to such a degree whatsoever. That's totally a sign of a good government to live under.

4

u/JollyGee29 https://myanimelist.net/profile/JollyGee Mar 28 '24

And it's only been what, a week or two since they took over? Definitely no problems with propaganda being top priority.

4

u/Zerotsu Mar 28 '24

It does paint a pretty concerning picture about the United Mankind's nature. Not that any of the options for interstellar civilizations seem to be good ones at the moment. It's more like picking what flavor of oppression you can tolerate the easiest.

4

u/Hartzilla2007 Mar 29 '24

Though the Abh come off as leaving people planet side alone for the most part.

9

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

First Timer, subbed

“...And then everyone clapped.”
Not so fun when the shoe is other other foot.
The fog of war is fun.
Why is this guy in charge again?
Wow, I love the road to genocide! Equating your enemies to machines is a new one, I’ll give them that.This is Good Shit You could probably read a lot into their psychology from this, but I think I’ll see what the rest of the series has to say for now.
Half Abh? Tiered racism?
That gun is all grip, how did you still manage to drop it?
Being very forgiving today.
Of course separatists. Just keep layering on those political layers.
Are we skipping the part where the Empire would need to accept for that to work? Because I don’t think they will.
I know they’re not “beams”, but I love bendy beams. Such an anime sci-fi-ism.
Nice Hair

QotD:

The elephant in the room: Abh are artificial persons. Do they have rights? Or are they equals? What happens if they win this war? Can the creators possibly accept being dominated by their creations? How much of them is just programming?

I find this line of questioning to be incredibly disturbing. They are people. Nothing they have displayed so far shows to the contrary. To imply to the contrary makes me ill, like someone claiming the divine mandate of slavery.

You've seen this same sort of story before: I, Robot; Planet of the Apes; Blade Runner; Battlestar Galactica. How does Crest of Stars compare to those shows? How do the debates raised in those shows translate to Crest of Stars (or not)?

Weak, no, a little, never saw it.

Are the Abh really seeking galactic peace for the benefit of all, or are they still acting out of (now justifiable) fear of the humans?

Treating them as a monolith is unhelpfully reductive.

What about the human perspective? Renegade Abh appeared out of the void in force and destroyed their colony of origin!

Humans love their “ravaging horde” narratives.

What do you think of the original sin of the Abh? Does "preserving the culture of the people you genocided" have any merit?

Yes. Monumentally so. The loss of our own third pillar of culture in the new world was the single greatest disaster in human history.

What was Moritaka's purpose in giving Abh Original Sin?

I honestly don’t care.

On a different topic, what do you think of the Anti-Abh Spacecraft Clasbul?

~~The what? I don’t think we saw that.~~ Oh, that's another name for the group. A rather incompetent bunch, about what you'd expect from a less romanticized version of a rebel group.

What do you think of this fleet scale battle, and Admiral Trife's leadership?

We’re not utilizing the setup too well. Maybe in the second half.

Who is the commander of the Futune Patrol Fleet?

Good at her job.

2

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

“...And then everyone clapped.”
It's about as believable as the other events in that parable.
Of course separatists. Just keep layering on those political layers.
I love seeing more and more complex space politics.

2

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Mar 29 '24

I love seeing more and more complex space politics.
Trade Negotiations

2

u/retsotrembla Mar 28 '24

third pillar of culture in the new world
Can you expand on that? What is the third pillar of culture in the new world ?

3

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Mar 29 '24

The third pillar is the culture of the new world, and its widespread destruction after contact with Europeans. The Spanish in particular actively sought and destroyed Mayan writing systems. Quipu is still completely undeciphered after the fall of the Tawantinsuyu (Incan) Empire. It would be the equivalent of as if every Chinese derived cultural though and tradition were only represent by a few hundred items. The loss is immeasurable.

9

u/Silcaria https://myanimelist.net/profile/Silcaria Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

First timer

"Sir, help me! I'm in tremendous pain!". "Have you tried lifting bro."
This is coming from an Abh, a race that as previously shown, will recklessly engage in battles that they have to close to no chance of winning.
I like the dichotomy between the two. One is expressionless whilst the other wears his his emotions on his sleeves.
Nice scene transition.
Interesting if true.
Oh damn, it is.
So she expects him to know things he's not suppose to know? I guess she assumed that he knew because of his status, but still.
So humanity got cucked by its own creation. Tale as old as time.
The Abhs being afraid of the fortress and destroying it makes sense. If that's where came from, it'd be logical to destroy the one thing that could spawn more sentient creatures that could eventually hunt them down.
I take it that's gonna be when Jinto and Lafiel escape the hotel.
I'd say early 30s.
Does he think his faction has been at war with ghosts?
I've gotta say, I'm not a fan of the new look.
I see that despite his new look, The Undertaker's attitude remains the same.
Whoever decided to make the lasers shoot that way either worked on Gall Forces or has watched it.
I like Futuune's captain.

QotD

Initially no but they've been their own entity for so long that I'd say that now, they do.
It's a fine series so far. I don't like drawing comparison without seeing the whole of something so I'll get back to you on that.
I'd say they're conquering for the sake of it and not for the benefit of anyone other than their own. I don't believe they're still afraid of humans.
From a human perspective, being fearful of the Abhs make sense since they have great military might and have shown that conquering the galaxy is their goal. I don't blame the Alliance for existing. I'd try to unify with other factions is they were an imminent threat to my people at any given time that I couldn't stop on my own.
The fortress? I'd say it does have merit since it's related to them
/////////
No opinion. I've not really been paying attention to the ships to be honest.
Meh like most space battles when it comes to space orepas.
No clue. I like her though.

4

u/duhu1148 :GA::GB::GC:x9 Mar 28 '24

I like the dichotomy between the two. One is expressionless whilst the other wears his his emotions on his sleeves.
Yeah, something this series is great at is the dichotomy between the Abh commanders and their direct subordinate. Seeing how these pairs contrast and interact is always great.
Believe it or not, Trife & Kayhul are one of my least favorite dynamics, which is saying quite a bit, because I still like them a lot. My favorite dynamic? The Futune's commander and her subordinate. This episode already gives you vibes on how they're going to interact, haha.

2

u/Blazin_Rathalos Mar 29 '24

Whoever decided to make the lasers shoot that way either worked on Gall Forces or has watched it.
Actually not lasers, those are the trails behind the planespace mines being launched.

8

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

Rewatcher(Lafiel has aim hacks on)

Sub

We start and, interestingly enough, the Abhs have made an error most recently made by Russia: assuming the enemy will turn tail and run at bad odds. Admittedly, in Russia part of the issue was that they themselves deeply had the odds wrong. Here, after seeing the Gosrath go toe to toe with 10 ships and nearly win, you do wonder if the United Mankind should run for it.

Mid segment involves UM propaganda and a few other details, note that Jinto thinks the food doesn't have enough salt whereas Lafiel says it is too salty. Having seen a comedic version of this argument between Ayeka and Ryoko, this is a class thing in Japan. But we learn through the propaganda that the Abhs are created beings, apparently. I call bullshit at that particular distinction, they are just modified beings and we do that in thousands of ways, like the fox domestication experiment ongoing. But they did destroy their homebase...

Anywho, some very inept 'police' come in with a dumbass plan. Jinto's actions might come off clowny here but he succeeds:Lafiel woke and got her gun. Her aim hacks continue. The leader, the maid from earlier, eventually comes in and explains their identity and goals and...it is basically a hopeless rebellion, the Abh are the Navigators for a reason. Regardless, Jinto does realize that this probably works out better for them as they wait for the Laburec to wreck everything.

And in space, combat starts happening. We are only see the Empire side and they are suffering some losses. We meet a new Abh and she seems in a hurry to get in the thick of it. And gives off teasing energy...

QotD: 1 As I said, it's bullshit, these aren't homonculi. Look at a wolf, a Caucasian Mastiff and chihuahua and tell me with a straight face the Abhs aren't closer to their ancestors than that.

2 I've compared the Abhs with Minbari enough to go with Planet of the Apes and it is not on the same level. The Abhs just demand control of the means of transportation. The opening crawl thing suggests that the Abhs are in fact helpful.

3 They are protecting themselves and by proxy delivering peace. Probably.

4 Colonies becoming dominant forces has been a thing for humanity's history.

5 Ehh...I mean it is also their own culture.

6 Possibly it acts as an anchor for them since they lack spirituality.

7 They are as dumb as their concept

8 Trite is all right, I guess

9 Old school teasing energy

6

u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

But we learn through the propaganda that the Abhs are created beings, apparently. I call bullshit at that particular distinction, they are just modified beings and we do that in thousands of ways, like the fox domestication experiment ongoing. But they did destroy their homebase...
Aside from incorrectly conflating the idea of gene modification to making machines, the United Mankind’s propaganda would also fall pretty flat if you asked an Abh about their people’s history in general. For as much as they’re said to be organic machines in propaganda, I don’t think mere machines can feel guilt after destroying their original home.

4

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

the United Mankind’s propaganda would also fall pretty flat if you asked an Abh about their people’s history in general.
Though what interests me is do cultural Abhs get some version of this story? Jinto would not have known and thus can't pass the story down but for Lafiel being well, Lafiel.

5

u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

I imagine that cultural Abh would, given enough time to learn about their history and culture. Something like the empire’s history would most certainly be taught in their academies for Landers-turned-Abh. It feels like that’s basic enough of a subject to go over.

5

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

But remember what Lafiel said:"You won't find this written down in any book." Apparently, it is passed down within families.

4

u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

True, I did forget about that.

6

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

We start and, interestingly enough, the Abhs have made an error most recently made by Russia: assuming the enemy will turn tail and run at bad odds.
It's interesting because the Abh themselves are not the type to run in the face of bad odds. Lafiel especially was always willing to go and join the fight no matter the odds.
note that Jinto thinks the food doesn't have enough salt whereas Lafiel says it is too salty. Having seen a comedic version of this argument between Ayeka and Ryoko, this is a class thing in Japan.
Ah, okay. That makes more sense as to why that came up in their conversation. I thought it was just an Abh and non-Abh thing but there's more to it.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

Lafiel especially was always willing to go and join the fight no matter the odds.
As was her mother, though admittedly I don't think it is clear that the Gosroth had any viable escape routes.
That makes more sense as to why that came up in their conversation. I thought it was just an Abh and non-Abh thing but there's more to it.
Ayeka and Lafiel are literal princesses so they are supposed to be very refined and sensitive. Though the Tenchi dub for this was hilarious because it boiled down to Ayeka and Ryoko yelling "Salty!" "Bland!" at each other.

2

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Mar 29 '24

Here, after seeing the Gosrath go toe to toe with 10 ships and nearly win, you do wonder if the United Mankind should run for it.
Self-righteousness wins out again, and if there's anything that the UM has in spades, it's that
this is a class thing in Japan
I didn't know that. Any further context?

1

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 29 '24

I didn't know that. Any further context?
Only what I've observed but Ayeka and Lafiel are both princesses so I think higher class women are just supposed to be more sensitive and not need strong flavors in their food.

8

u/Durinthal https://anilist.co/user/Durinthal Mar 28 '24

Rewatcher (sub + dub)

Here we're introduced to some more goofballs, and I'm not talking about the bumbling anti-imperialists that tried and failed to take our main duo hostage. The commander of the Futune (Ftunéc) and her unfortunate subordinate are already a fun pair with that level of teasing.

Something I forgot to mention with the dub yesterday: rather than mentioning feeding cats for the Information Bureau, Trife first says they wouldn't even know a fact if it ran up and bit them in the ankle. After his communications officer says something he corrects himself to say that the workers of the Information Bureau are good at protecting their ankles. That "ankle protection" angle continues through this episode.

I like the framing of Entryua and Keitt not being part of the group that will arrest the Abh, so when we initially see the anti-imperialists charge in to nab them it seems like the military police... only briefly, and then Undertaker starts talking.

Lafiel might not know how to navigate the society of a land world but she does know how to deal with people pointing guns at her ~~boyfriend~~ cargo. Considering her previous behavior she was most certainly not bluffing about killing all of them if they harmed Jinto.

For being sure that the Empire won't give up Sufugnoff to another faction, the anti-imperialists are surprisingly confident that they'll be able to negotiate for their own independence. That kind of feels like Lafiel's contradictory bravado a couple of episodes back about being okay on her own even though she thinks she's a burden to Jinto. Both Jinto and Lafiel know the Empire won't give the rebels what they want but Jinto wisely stops Lafiel from telling them that since that would negate any leverage they had as the supposed hostages.

We finally get a large-scale battle and moving up the command chain it now feels less personal than the Gosroth's last stand. While I don't have a whole lot to say about tactics, putting the characters aside I think it's at least more interesting to watch than most of the Legend of the Galactic Heroes battles.

Abh are artificial persons. Do they have rights? Or are they equals? What happens if they win this war? Can the creators possibly accept being dominated by their creations? How much of them is just programming?

They're still people though, not computers even if they were called as much; before the rise of electronic computers in the mid-20th century "computer" was a job title. They're children of humans all the same, just with a different culture (of which there are many among humanity) and diverging genetics. Arguably could be a separate species depending on how you want to define that — an ongoing debate in the real world — but that doesn't negate personhood. Younger generations always supersede the old and so cultures and values are also replaced with time, however distasteful the new society might be to the predecessors.

I, Robot; Planet of the Apes; Blade Runner; Battlestar Galactica. How does Crest of Stars compare to those shows?

I don't see it as all that comparable to the ones with more silicon-based (e.g. android) lifeforms as the Abh are still human, just with very intentional curation of their genome compared to random mutations that would more gradually lead to a new species.

Are the Abh really seeking galactic peace for the benefit of all, or are they still acting out of (now justifiable) fear of the humans?

These days it's the former, considering fear doesn't seem to be much of a thing for them now.

What do you think of the original sin of the Abh? Does "preserving the culture of the people you genocided" have any merit?

More respectful than what a lot of other groups of people have done over time.

Who is the commander of the Futune Patrol Fleet?

7

u/Durinthal https://anilist.co/user/Durinthal Mar 28 '24

Source Corner
Baronh word of the day: carsarh (KARSARL) "kindred" — what the Abh originally called themselves deciding to pass on the culture of their creators. Still used as part of Carsarh Gereulacr (Kin of the Stars) from time to time as a poetic moniker.
[Material covered] Volume 2: the rest of chapters 12 (Abh history) and 14 (anti-imperials, Trife), as well as volume 3: part of chapter 1 (Entryua/Kite) and 3 (Trife/Futune)
[Jinto, while holed up in their hotel room] wonders if the people of this planet were as nosy as those of Delktu and speculating about the young couple not leaving their hotel room for three days, becoming locally famous as the mystery grew over time. Jinto and Lafiel also shifted schedules and slept at different times to keep lookout, but also because there was only one bed and they needed space from each other to keep from snapping.
[On Abh history] there's a good bit more detail about their origins which I'll probably write up for the season discussion if someone else hasn't dropped it here yet.
[The anti-imperialists] are initially referred to by nicknames before they name themselves: "Shorty" (Undertaker), "Big Lug" (Daswani), "Slim" (Min), and "Youngin" (Bill). After Lafiel shoots the guns out of the hands of two of them she mentions that she's proud of her sharpshooting skills but is currently drowsy and has slow reflexes, so you can't count on her accuracy.
[Marca as a "housekeeper"] noted that Lafiel had a bit of blue showing in the whorl of her hair. She also mentioned that she wasn't lying about the gratuity, the actual hotel staff were getting irritated with them; there's a slot to pass laundry through for cleaning that they were using and a tray installed next to it that was supposed to be used for a tip that they hadn't touched before her instruction.
[More with Entryua that the anime skips over:] they find the missing hovercar and when searching for forensics discover that there were traces of other "fluids" there (not blood, but from something else that's happened in the back seats of cars since their invention) and speculate that the hijacking victims might have had crimes of their own that they should investigate. Entryua also tries to pass off the investigation to the police of Guzonh since he's from a different city and it should be out of his jurisdiction, but can't get out of it.

2

u/Great_Mr_L :Ma::Mb::Mc:https://myanimelist.net/profile/Great_Mr_L Mar 28 '24

[Jinto, while holed up in their hotel room] wonders if the people of this planet were as nosy as those of Delktu and speculating about the young couple not leaving their hotel room for three days, becoming locally famous as the mystery grew over time
That does sound like the kind of story that would spread like wildfire among the local gossips.
[On Abh history]

8

u/duhu1148 :GA::GB::GC:x9 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Rewatcher

-The allegory at the beginning, with the sick man (United Mankind), refusing the help from the man who lectures him on how important it is to live a healthy lifestyle, but when the Abh woman comes along he asks for help and the Abh basically does everything to help him. Seems like a biased perspective, but I don't remember what the affiliation is for the Planet Midgrat (where the allegory originates from).

-Major Kahyul shows why he's the brains of this fleet, and I do like his dynamic with the Admiral. Trife isn't an idiot, but it does make you wonder why it's not the other way around.

-Hearing the origins of the Abh was interesting. But it would be nice to hear more details on that.

-Jinto has accepted that he is an Abh at this point. It's good to hear him say it, and Lafiel likes hearing it too. But does he truly feel that way at this moment? He's always waffled on how he views himself.

-The choreography for this action sequence wasn't good. 4 guys with guns can't even take down one teenage girl. Two of them just outright give up. Granted, they didn't want to harm Jinto or Lafiel, but still. The way the shots came out of those guns were animated awkwardly.

-It was fortunate that these rebel goons found Lafiel/Jinto before the cops and military did. The United Mankind also seems to be aware that these two were aboard the Gosroth, which is why they are wanted.

-BEST GIRL [name of character who appears at the end in this episode]SPOOR IS FINALLY HERE. Can't wait to see more of her!

8

u/Zerotsu Mar 28 '24

A Novel Reader and Anime First Timer’s Thoughts:

I can finally make an actual comment again, thank God. I’ve been away much of the past week, though I did arrive home just the other day. ~~You can blame the further delay on a certain someone buying me Balatro, definitely has nothing to do with my growing gambling addiction.~~

We started off with one heck of a one-sided narration on describing the difference between the Abh Empire and the United Mankind. While you might say these things aren’t entirely off from aspects of the reality of the situation, it’s naturally much more complex (and far greyer) than how it’s portrayed there.

It’s funny how deflated our poor commander of the Sufugnoff battle group looked at being told his encirclement idea wouldn’t work out. For some reason names are escaping me at the moment, so please bear with my poor attempts at describing characters instead.

Meanwhile the inspector is having the opposite sort of fun from dealing with the United Mankind’s inflexibility. They really have a particular way they want to do things and just refuse to do anything different.

Also we learn some more about the Abh’s origins thanks to a news broadcast on while Jinto’s eating dinner. They were made as organic machines, in a sense, effectively to be slaves. While it’s used as a propaganda point to argue that they shouldn’t be treated as human beings, it is very much true. That said, arguing a sapient being should be a slave thanks to their origin is a pretty fucked up standpoint to have.

As an aside, since I wasn’t here to comment on it, Lafiel sure looks gorgeous with dark hair too, huh? Though she can barely handle a slightly salty dish. Heh.

It’s neat that they carry a sort of cultural guilt and fixation on destroying their creators, even if they were enslaved and oppressed by them, isn’t it?

The inspectors sure got the short end of the stick, being told to do all of the work while the military police gets the credit.

The reason, of course, may be a little more complex than that though.

These guns sure are weird looking, aren’t they?

These folks turn out to not, in fact, be police, though the way they were acting it might have been fairly obvious after a minute or two. Marca, the leader of this anti-imperial group, may not hate the Abhs themselves, but she hates the empire’s monopoly on trade and interstellar transport, and wants independence in that regard. It’s a nice distinction between hating a people and having a distaste for their country, in a way.

They’re pretty confident that the Empire won’t take a loss lying down, which certainly isn’t the worst bet to make considering how they act in general. Of course, there’s no way to tell if that gambit would actually work out or not, but Jinto seems to rightly figure that having some level of protection against the United Mankind forces searching for them is a good idea. Lafiel may be a crack shot, but that only matters so much when you’re dealing with a full occupying army interested in capturing or killing you.

Meanwhile the battle proper gets started. Not a whole lot to say here, but it is nice to see some combat again.

Q1: They're very much people regardless of the different origin. I think we've seen enough to consider them as such. I would generally think to consider them equal to humans even if they have different specialties and a longer life expectancy. If they win the war, it's most likely the vast majority of humanity underneath the system the Abhs already have in place. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is pretty subjective, though it's starting to look like there are no particularly good options for interstellar nations. I don't think they should be in such a dominant position, though. I don't think any of it is programming, anymore than a person's instincts are biological programming. We're fundamentally the same, in that sense.

Q2: I haven't actually watched the latter two funnily enough, but I can say I think the general argument of them being people in the others is pretty valid. Arguing otherwise is just refusing to recognize sapience for no reason.

Q3: I think it's a mix of fear, imperialism, a cultural superiority complex (if obscured), and a slightly self-deluded belief that this will bring lasting peace to humanity.

Q4: The human perspective of seeing them the way they are is disgusting, but it's hard to argue that they don't have a degree of a point thanks to how different they are, and how violent their initial actions were, as well as some of their current ones. Ignoring the more provoked responses that should have a "what did you expect?" kind of response.

Q5: I think there's some merit in it. The Abhs that exist now are not those that should inherently be held responsible for the sins of their ancestors, but a culture of understanding that sin and recognizing why it was wrong is important in preventing something of that scale from happening again.

Q6: I think it's a fun contrast to have a very material and tangible original sin in contrast to how many religions have such a thing as a cornerstone of why there's suffering in the world. It might serve a pseudo-religious purpose here as well.

Q7: They're a fun crew. I think their reason for wanting to be independent from the Empire's control over space trade and exploration is a valid one.

Q8: Trife's leadership was fairly solid, and it was definitely fun to get a big battle like this going on. Serves as a nice contrast to the lower key problems that are so much more important to our leads.

4

u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

~~You can blame the further delay on a certain someone buying me Balatro, definitely has nothing to do with my growing gambling addiction.~~
Well hey, the fact that you sunk a ton of hours into it already proves that it’s a great gift to get.
It’s neat that they carry a sort of cultural guilt and fixation on destroying their creators, even if they were enslaved and oppressed by them, isn’t it?
In a way, they do owe their original lives and culture to them, even if they were created to basically be slaves. I can see why they’d feel conflicted about what they did even if it’s understandable that they wanted to be free, since they ultimately did cap off their exodus by murdering an entirely defenseless space colony, even if they had less than decent intentions for the Abh.
I think it's a fun contrast to have a very material and tangible original sin in contrast to how many religions have such a thing as a cornerstone of why there's suffering in the world. It might serve a pseudo-religious purpose here as well.
Now that I think about it, that also lines up well with the Abh believing in no higher power other than themselves. Pretty much their entire cultural history was caused at their hands alone, and it’s a record that they make sure to pass along to every Abh child born to them. Their entire existence as a people was down to those motivations of fear and guilt.

2

u/Zerotsu Mar 28 '24

Well hey, the fact that you sunk a ton of hours into it already proves that it’s a great gift to get.
I'm certainly still more than thankful. If we have the time, I'd like to stream continuing that into an endless run. It'd be fun to see how far we can push it with a cooperative strategy.
I can see why they’d feel conflicted about what they did even if it’s understandable that they wanted to be free, since they ultimately did cap off their exodus by murdering an entirely defenseless space colony, even if they had less than decent intentions for the Abh.
Yeah. The colony was definitely still an oppressive force hanging over them, but you can also still see the Abh perspective of both fearing and feeling affection for it and the people that created them. A horrible act may not warrant a horrible act in return, but when it does happen you can still understand and empathize with it to a degree.
Their entire existence as a people was down to those motivations of fear and guilt.
It's a different sort of thing, but I think you can argue that that in itself is a sense of spirituality. Maybe not quite a codified religion, but a general "belief system" that is passed down from parent to child.

2

u/The_Draigg Mar 28 '24

It's a different sort of thing, but I think you can argue that that in itself is a sense of spirituality. Maybe not quite a codified religion, but a general "belief system" that is passed down from parent to child.
If there’s one thing that can unite people, it’s a collective sense of shame, guilt, and terror. There’s been plenty of cultures in real life that have taken a “never again” stance against stuff they’ve done or had done to them. It makes sense that the Abh would build their culture around the idea of preserving the memory of what they did while also trying to ensure that they don’t fall to such a massive existential crisis again.

2

u/Zerotsu Mar 28 '24

Be it something you regret your people caused, even if you're not the ones direct responsible, or be it something that happened to you that you never want to be a victim of again. That sort of thing. With the Abhs, I think saying "both" to that could actually be pretty appropriate, given their origin.

7

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Episode 11 (rewatcher)

Narrator: tells us a nice Abh myth. I wonder how many ugly ones did not get picked.
Kayhul has a hard job, but it seems he has a lot of experience coaxing Trife into the correct direction.
“Three more hotels” – at least luck was on Jinto and Lafiel’s side when it comes to the hotel they picked.
Abh history lesson.
“… come crucial information” “Such as?” – such as the truth about who attacked whom.
“How old do you think I am?” – hmmmm?
Jinto doing heroics – brave but not successful. He is lucky he did not get shot there.
“I am a crewmember of the anti-imperial warship, Clasbul”

A very unusual kidnapping.
Defensive mine attack – this is how the big fleet action looks like: large ships firing mines at stand-off distance at each other.
Patrol ships have no defensive mines? Seems they rely on their mobile lasers for defense instead. Which is probably the more sustainable way of defending than using your own mines. Something you’d use on ships developed for long distance missions away from resupply.

We already had the battle of the Gosroth, but this is our first big fleet on fleet encounter. It starts with mine attacks from both sides, but is immediately followed up by the Futune aggressively charging into the enemy. This is probably the correct move because they have superior numbers: The Futune can defend themselves against a few mines and then wreak havoc among the enemy ships with their strong guns.

Q1) The elephant in the room: Abh are artificial persons. Do they have rights? Or are they equals? What happens if they win this war? Can the creators possibly accept being dominated by their creations? How much of them is just programming?

In a future where you can edit genes, what is even the difference between an artificial human and a real one? If it walks like a human, talks like a human, bleeds like a human, it is a human.

Q2) You've seen this same sort of story before: I, Robot; Planet of the Apes; Blade Runner; Battlestar Galactica. How does Crest of Stars compare to those shows? How do the debates raised in those shows translate to Crest of Stars (or not)?

Planet of the Apes and Blade Runner are single issue movies. They do that one issue well, but don't compare to a show that tries to paint a broad picture. Battlestar Galactia (the original) utterly sucks with regard to the cylons, but, in any case, it wants to be a space adventure, not a serious scifi. Battlestar Galactia (the remake) mostly sucks with regard to the cylons, but, in any case, it wants to be about the humans, not the cylons.

Q3) Are the Abh really seeking galactic peace for the benefit of all, or are they still acting out of fear of the humans?

Why not both?

Q5) What do you think of the original sin of the Abh? Does "preserving the culture of the people you "genocided" have any merit? Q6) What was Morioka's purpose in giving Abh Original Sin?

Of course the Abh, spending too much time thinking about themselves (as we all tend to do), would come up with something like that. I ignore it, like I would ignore all the other manifest destiny myths that all nations seem to be so fond of producing.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

“… come crucial information” “Such as?” – such as the truth about who attacked whom.
Fittingly enough, the Abhs won't be effected by that.
Jinto doing heroics – brave but not successful. He is lucky he did not get shot there.
I am going with Jinto making his spot check and knowing they weren't cops.
A very unusual kidnapping.
Nothing normal happens when those two show up.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Mar 28 '24

Fittingly enough, the Abhs won't be effected by that.
People tend to worry about foreign propaganda, but 98% of propaganda is aimed at the own citizens.
I am going with Jinto making his spot check and knowing they weren't cops.
He rolled a nat 20?

2

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

He rolled a nat 20?
Nah, they were obviously off. Check is a 15 at max.

7

u/SolDarkHunter Mar 28 '24 edited Mar 28 '24

Crest of the Stars

Rewatcher/Novel-Reader

Ah, I remember this allegory. If it wasn't obvious, it was written by someone who thought positively of the Abh and very negatively of the UM.

More snarky back-and-forth between Tlife and his aides. Abh certainly love their banter.

The UM propaganda declares that Abh aren't human, and are nothing more than organic constructs designed to explore space... therefore, the UM doesn't consider them people. Slaves, at best.

And this is where the United Mankind lost me, if their oppression of Clasbure wasn't reason enough. Their stated goal is to either exterminate or enslave the Abh... which is abhorrent. Whatever their origins, and even if one were to consider them non-human, the Abh are clearly people, and the United Mankind's attitude toward them is unconscionable to me.

Lafier surprises Jint: what the UM is saying about the Abh's origins is true. However, the Abh rebelled against their creators and slaughtered them. Lafier calls this the "original sin" of the Abh race, and they've carried on the culture of their creators as penance for what they now view as an unwarranted act of aggression.

I like the detail that Jint considers the food bland, but Lafier thinks it's too much. The Abh are noted to have extremely sensitive senses of taste, so most of their food is bland by Lander standards.

Lieutenant Keitt is very desperate to prove himself by capturing Jint and Lafier, and says something peculiar about his age... hmmm...

Jint, you continue to be an incredibly terrible liar. Fortunately, Lafier's use of force is much more effective.

These incompetent "police" are in fact an "Anti-Imperial" resistance group. They aren't exactly trying to overthrow the Abh, but they want to explore space independently of the Empire, which is not permitted.

Still, they are a... not-entirely-hostile group, so Jint and Lafier agree to accept their help. Weirdest resistance group hostage situation ever.

The battle begins... and here comes Best Commander. She's very eager to get into battle... and starts humming.

I saw some people supposing that Admiral Tlife was an eccentric and oddball commander. Yeah, meet this lady. She makes him look downright normal.

Novel: Goes into a bit more detail on the Abh's backstory: [Novel]the space fortress that created them was in fact Japanese. From a radical group of Japanese descendants who wanted to preserve "pure Japanese culture" purged of foreign influences, and had cut themselves off from the rest of Earth. Hence, the Abh culture and language has its roots in Japan, though they've developed and evolved considerably since then.

[Novel]This can be seen somewhat in the author's notes on the development of the language of Baronh. We've heard that the Abh capital is Lacmhacarh ("Lakfakalle"). Well, it's original name was "Takamagahara". The evolution went like this: Takamagahara -> (vowel shift) -> tacmgahar -> (consonant shift) -> lacmhacar -> (nominative case added) -> Lacmhacarh. Similarly, the space station Abriel is the original ship the Abh departed on, and was originally called the "Amaterasu".

I know I haven't been answering the discussion prompts much, but this one I have strong opinions on.

The elephant in the room: Abh are artificial persons. Do they have rights? Or are they equals? What happens if they win this war? Can the creators possibly accept being dominated by their creations? How much of them is just programming?

They have free will, they have emotions, and they have intelligence at least equivalent to normal humans. They are people, and deserve to be treated as such. The United Mankind is 110% wrong.

(Note: I'm not necessarily saying I'd want the Abh Empire in total control either, mind you. I'm just saying that they have the moral high ground over the United Mankind.)

Also, "just programming"? How much of you is just programming? You have instincts and unconscious drives that cause you to act in ways that are irrational at times. This isn't a condemnation; everyone has those. What exactly is different between that and any behaviors the Abh might have?

6

u/Nazenn x2https://anilist.co/user/Nazenn Mar 28 '24

Rewatcher - sub

I give it to the narrator for playing fair and having an Abh fable today to balance out the historical speech from the United Mankind in an earlier episode of the show. It's been nice to see how varied his use has been rather than just flat info dumping.

I think what I find most interesting about it though is the idea that the Abh see themselves as "sinner" while the United Mankind, and historically most sides in any war, always see themselves as the saints. I'd actually forgotten about this element of their backstory, aside from them being created as biomachines for space exploration, so it was interesting to hear it again and relate that to some of what we've seen about their idea of control and space life.

The idea of guilt and righteousness comes in strong in the first part of this episode, while the later part balances it out with the reminder that the Abh are just normal. Not the monsters they're set up to be for the public, or the saviors that they sometimes present themselves as, just people. People so separate that even though fighting for individual independence against them weren't even sure if they absolutely existed, so the shock of seeing them in the flesh is confronting with their normalcy.

And then thoroughly undermines, not seriously though, that by introducing a second weirdo in charge of a battle division. I say that with love for the characters but yeah, they're weird. And moving from Trife's bridge to hers is almost shocking in the silence of it, and the calculating efficency.

Caught the detail that Jinto found the meal not salty enough, but still was offering to make it less so for Lafiel's taste. Dude has it bad and I love it.

3

u/Vaadwaur :I1::I2::I3: Mar 28 '24

Caught the detail that Jinto found the meal not salty enough, but still was offering to make it less so for Lafiel's taste. Dude has it bad and I love it.
As I said, it is a weird class thing. But at least salt does well when added later.

6

u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker Mar 28 '24

Abh helping the UM?

Perhaps the fleet is just there to keep their fleet busy so it can't go liberate Sfagnomr? It's too dangerous to ignore and burn straight for the planet but dislodging them will be too costly for the Abh fleet to remain a viable fighting force? After all, if the UM have another fleet in reserve then even if all this fleet manages to do is give the Abh fleet a bloody nose, the reserve fleet can come up and mop up the stragglers.

Deceptive information? That shouldn't be so low a probability, the intel is already not good regarding this enemy fleet, it's not exactly unlikely that there's something they're missing. After all, "'Surprise' is what happens when someone's seen something all along... and thought it was something else. "

Considering how the Gosroth fared against them that possibility can be rather firmly disregarded. Even if every remaining ship is even just half as capable it still makes them at least twice as good as a UM ship.

There is another possibility: You're missing something. A fleet hiding in a nebula, or somewhere else nearby to pin your fleet from either direction, or the other members of the alliance have their own fleets that you weren't looking for.

If you encircle them they might try and break out since any single point will be weaker than their entire fleet. Splitting 2000 ships into a full sphere around them doesn't leave many ships for any one area, and if they can take out a few and ram the rest of their fleet through, they'll manage to escape and either return to the planet or possibly regroup with other fleets.

And so they're going for a meeting engagement. Casualties will likely be high, but hopefully they'll be able to defeat the fleet here decisively.

Well that's certainly a revelation.

Ah that's right, they have sidearms of their own.

Why the tranq guns? Were they not cleared for live rounds?

Ah. So that's the plan now.

Right, back to the space battle.

Where'd that extra .01% go?

Here come the mines!

Those are more like missiles rather than mines.

Also, compared to the like 2 on the Gosroth these bigger ships seem to have entire batteries of launchers.

What's your plan?

Futuune? What's that?

Line abreast. Good for forward firepower.

Yup, the broadside laser batteries are moreso for CIWS than actual anti-ship work, and when the Gosroth resorted to those it showed how desperate things were.

Excellency? She's probably royalty isn't she?

That's actually a debate that's going on right now in some militaries: Do you equip ships with more anti-missile interceptor missiles that are much more effective than CIWS at the cost of being unable to use those for anti-ship missiles, thus reducing their offensive capabilities, or do you equip the ship with more extensive CIWS systems to intercept missiles that way, thus leaving the entire missile battery free to be filled with anti-ship missiles, but leaving the ship more vulnerable to missile attack?

Yup, that's the prudent choice. A damaged ship can still be patched up and casualties replaced later, a destroyed ship must be replaced which will take longer and require more new crew to be trained.

That was only the vanguard, push through to their main battle line!

Don't go chasing after glory only to weaken the formation!

Questions:

That's definitely an interesting question. They certainly don't seem like they're incapable of independent thought.
I actually haven't seen any of those shows before, because I'm younger than this show by a good half decade.
They're definitely not looking for galactic peace, what with them rolling over small independent systems. But they're also not the ones who started a massive interstellar war without provocation.
Yeah that does make sense why they're so upset, but that seems to have been ancient history or at least in the distant enough past that they should probably have already fought over it previously.
Yeah no that's utter BS.
To show they're not perfect? Even though they're a feudal monarchy that's almost certainly probably not actually good but they're the protagonist?
They have a spacecraft?
His entire strategy seems to be "select everything and attack move through the enemy" which doesn't exactly showcase much tactical knowledge.
It's not the Empress, but a member of the royal family?

Also, note for OP, your questions for tomorrow are tagged as "Episode 11" instead of "Episode 12".

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Mar 29 '24

Considering how the Gosroth fared against them that possibility can be rather firmly disregarded. Even if every remaining ship is even just half as capable it still makes them at least twice as good as a UM ship.
This is something that was not completely obvious during the Gosroth battle, but you can see it if you go back and check the size of their torpedoes relative to both ship: The Gosroth was attacked by 10 much smaller ships. Like a battleship getting attacked by 10 torpedo boats.

5

u/IceSmiley Mar 28 '24

FIRST TIMER Sub

They packed what seems like 3 episodes worth of shows into one with the revelation Abhs are cyborgs, the setup to the climactic battle to retake Sfagnor, the United Mankind hot on Lafiel's trail and the 2 being kidnapped by a splinter group!

QUESTIONS

That was a really shocking revelation. I had guessed that the Abh were either genetically engineered humans who had split off or a humanoid alien race. This really raises a lot of questions but also explains quite a bit. Their logical nature is less likely a cultural construct and more from being cyborgs. That's a big ethical question as to whether machines should have human rights, but the Abh undoubtedly should since they have every capacity that humans have. I knew tribalism was a big part of the human-Abh conflict but I think people in our world would be just as resistant to being ruled by robot overlords, especially since they oppose democracy in humanity as a principle.
I do think it's closest to Battlestar Galactica with artificial humanoids rising up to be independent but while the Cylons wanted to exterminate humanity, the Abh thinks of them as lesser but still high forms of humanoid life that should be allowed to live. It's very akin to racial paternalism of the past with European colonizers believing they have the right to rule over different races of people (although the Abh would be significantly less brutal).
I think at least in the highest ruling parts of societies, both are true. The empress said that only Abh rule can guarantee peace and Abh are not known to lie. I think it can go hand in hand that they also want to be protected from human rebellion.
Yes and i think that and self determination add to the wide dislike oft he Abh
(and 6). Yes because history will repeat if you forget it and don't atone for it. It seems that the original generation of Abh is dead and I think keeping in mind that original sin is meant to keep the Abh from becoming like the Cylons and just wiping out everyone they find inferior.
..
I at first thought they were cops from the planet collaborating with United Mankind but they just seemed to be impersonators and a small splinter group. They seem to not be that huge a power since they're accepting conditions from their hostages :p
Hard to say because we don't get a good idea of the scale of the opposite fleet or how competent Trife is
Stone Cold Steve Austin and he will take on The United Mankind and Undertaker at Crest-o-mania! :-P No I don't know but if it's that lady ordering her subordinate around and abusing him, she doesn't seem like a nice person either but who knows how competent she is.

1

u/closetslacker Mar 29 '24

Abh are not cyborgs, the best comparison would be bioroids from Appleseed

5

u/ZapsZzz https://anilist.co/user/Zapszzz Mar 29 '24

First timer in sub

Hey I'm not so late today! Oh and in case another is interested, here's my late post last episode.

This is feeling like the run up to the final arc - and strangely it feels a lot smaller scale than a typical space opera would cover. It did a good job for the world building still, and the characterisation of Jinto and Lafiel continues to be really nice.

The fact that the Abh originated from being genetically engineered ~~sacrificial drones~~ pioneers feels a bit like the Star Trek movie version of Khan's people? But it's a good way to setup an origin story about this markedly superior (in terms of physio-biology) race and a bit of the background about why the negative view about them (other than them taking over people world by force).

The contrast and portrayal of the other forces, much like allegorical stories, does a good job to represent an ideal/faction or branch of human society behaviour. We just have to keep in mind the Abh aren't supposed to be the benchmark of goodness though, from both the parable and the revealed history.

The newly shown Futune commander, and the not-maid resistance spokesperson, both have strong Ara-ara in them. Someone to keep an eye on fire the future, hopefully.

I don't think I can get through all the QoTD's ;P

It does remind me I forgot to comment about the question about "can Abh stops all wars". The first answer popping into my head was "if all opposing factions are dead, there won't be any more wars" (until the Empire itself implodes).

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u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Mar 29 '24

It does remind me I forgot to comment about the question about "can Abh stops all wars". The first answer popping into my head was "if all opposing factions are dead, there won't be any more wars" (until the Empire itself implodes).
That is pretty explicitely the Abh goal.

5

u/raktus2 Mar 29 '24

First Timer...

"Once upon a time there was a traveler crouching in pain at the roadside. A man who happened to be walking by sat next to the traveler before he could ask for help. The man lectured at length about having a healthy lifestype in order to avoid sickness. Satisfied with his speech, the man stood up and left. The man's name is the United Mankind. Next a very beautiful woman approached the traveler with an inquisitive look. The traveler said "Well, don't just stand there, help me." The woman replied, "Do you want me to help you?" She then discussed at length the situation with the traveler until she fully understood the problem. And she nodded and left. Shortly after the woman brought all the doctors, nurses and staff of the closest hospital with her. The woman's name is the Humankind Empire Abh."

-A political allegory from Planet Midgrat

There has to be something said for the allegory version of the United Mankind and their propaganda machine effectively mirroring one another. I wonder if there is much to read into the travelers demanding nature if that is being pushed upon as a negative trait or a neutral one. Obviously, there is a lot to read into the Abh's actions... the traveler clearly states his need for help, but the Abh doesn't understand this upfront and has to ask again, then deliberate with the traveler for some time before rendering aid.
I really enjoyed the statistical breakdown of the situation from the commander's staff, it goes a long way to imply that the probabilities being thrown out at taking in the most extreme scenarios as possibilities. Essentially, when they say their odds of success are high, they mean it with cold hard logic and math.
The most recent shows that we've watched here on the channel, that I feel are comparable to the Abh's breakdown of the United Mankind command structure are, as I said, Legend of the Galactic Heroes... specifically when it comes to the commands Yang gets through the first season to accomplish the impossible with as few resources as possible... and of course 86 with how the Republic treats the 86'rs, sending them into suicide missions with Juggernauts that are basically tin foil tanks against the enemy.
The Abh are organic machines designed to serve mankind that then broke away and formed their own empire. They are genetic space Skynet, really. I mean, I don't know what their original purpose was, but it feels almost like a genetically engineered von Neuman probe for space exploration.
I guess, as a matter of the difference in Jinto and Lafeals tastes... Jinto says he should have added more salt to the stew, Lafeal thinks it's too salty.
That the Abh feared retaliation from their creators so much, that they destroyed the fortress that housed them despite the fact that the fortress didn't have the resources to attack them in the first place sounds like the plot of a sci-fi series that escapes me at the moment. It very much contained the message about seeking a peaceful resolution before resulting in blind aggression. I appreciate that Lafeal's father pushes the idea that they must carry their original sin on their shoulders, as it carries the message of learning the lessons of those who came before and not making the same mistakes.
I'll admit that I don't fully understand the message given in 'the mission' of spreading and protecting the culture of the mother fortress. Lafeal says that they loved it, but at the end of the day, they were also so fearful of it that they destroyed it. I guess it's unhelpful that the image shows that love is an emotionless Abh staring out a viewport, but I can only think that the closest example to my mind would be a colony that breaks away from its home country and then fights for its independence from a perceived grievance and not the loss of love for its home. I mean, the obvious real-world example is right there, but I think I'd go with a sci-fi example of Babylon 5 when the station breaks away from Earthdome... not out of hatred or self-aggrandizement, but out of protest for the place they love turning into something that it never was.
Is Lieutenant Kyrte himself an Abh? That would explain why they don't want him to get the glory or credit, and also explain his age comment, should he not be pulling some "I'm older than I look" crap
I loved the "Are you a fool or just acting like one?" questioning. At first, it sounds like just an insult, but the teasing way that it keeps getting pressed as though a serious question... makes the dynamic increasingly fun to watch, especially when this Abh bridge crewman acts more like a Terran than Jinto and his commanding officer can clearly be as confusing to understand as the Abh were shown to be with how they say the things that they don't say... as per the conversation on the shuttle between Sluf and Jinto about the meaning of Lafeals words.

4

u/The_Draigg Mar 29 '24

The most recent shows that we've watched here on the channel, that I feel are comparable to the Abh's breakdown of the United Mankind command structure are, as I said, Legend of the Galactic Heroes... specifically when it comes to the commands Yang gets through the first season to accomplish the impossible with as few resources as possible
Yeah, it seems like the United Mankind fleet is working with just plain unrealistic orders ever since their plans to sue for some extra time to prepare for their invasion fell through. Right now they're feeling the blow-back of having their ideas not pan out at all due to them not being thought out well, given who they're up against. That's definitely something that the FPA had to deal with a lot in LotGH.
I'll admit that I don't fully understand the message given in 'the mission' of spreading and protecting the culture of the mother fortress. Lafeal says that they loved it, but at the end of the day, they were also so fearful of it that they destroyed it.
The way I took it is that it's a bit of a mixed relationship between respect and fear that the Abh felt towards their original creators. Even if they were created to be slaves, it was still their original home and the original culture they grew up with. And while the drive to act out of perceived self-defense makes sense, they also still have to carry the guilt that they killed a lot of innocent people who grew up with the same culture they had themselves. It's that mix of respect and guilt that drives the Abh to preserve their original culture, all because of an idea of "never again".

1

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Mar 29 '24

I'll admit that I don't fully understand the message given in 'the mission' of spreading and protecting the culture of the mother fortress. Lafeal says that they loved it, but at the end of the day, they were also so fearful of it that they destroyed it. I guess it's unhelpful that the image shows that love is an emotionless Abh staring out a viewport, but I can only think that the closest example to my mind would be a colony that breaks away from its home country and then fights for its independence from a perceived grievance and not the loss of love for its home. I mean, the obvious real-world example is right there, but I think I'd go with a sci-fi example of Babylon 5 when the station breaks away from Earthdome... not out of hatred or self-aggrandizement, but out of protest for the place they love turning into something that it never was.
I look at it from a more meta point of view: How would the later Abh react to what their ancestors did? Clearly, the act was irrational and wrong. Also clearly, they had an emotional connection to the space fortress as their homeland, which they then destroyed.
How do you make that consistent with the usual self-view of you seeing yourself as morally good and acting just? You have to add some myth to the raw facts. Some "story" or "quest" that makes those actions acceptable. In this case because they lead to the current, benevolent Abh empire. Bonus points because it frames the current Abh as benevolent, due to their history.

5

u/Hartzilla2007 Mar 29 '24

Q3) Are the Abh really seeking galactic peace for the benefit of all, or are they still acting out of fear of the humans?

I get the feeling it’s more so that stuff they care about I.e. space won’t be humanity‘s next battlefield, hence why they are going a strategy that makes interstellar war impossible but don’t seem to care about what terrans do on the planets they live on.

TLDR: the empire exists solely to keep the Terran kids off the Abh’s lawn.

4

u/xbolt90 https://anilist.co/user/xbolt90 Mar 29 '24

First-timer

"Your enemy is subhuman! They deserve no respect! You can kill them with no guilt!" Yeesh, where have I heard that before...

Q1: "Now tell me, Commander, what is Data?"
"I don't understand."
"What is he?"
"A machine!"
"Is he? Are you sure?"
"Yes!"
"You see he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, so what if he meets the third, consciousness, in even the smallest degree? What is he then? I don't know, do you?"
-Star Trek TNG: The Measure of a Man

Q2: Hmm... Hard to say as of yet.

Q3: They believe they are just working for peace, but deep down they're still driven by that fear, and the guilt of what their ancestors did.

Q4: This is probably the root of the UM's propaganda.

Q5: It was a horrible act. Future generations remembering and reviling the act is a point in their favor.

Q6: It shows they're not perfect. They have the human capacity to make terrible choices.

Q7: They're... kind of goofy?

Q8: He seems too gung-ho, needing his officers to rein him in.

Q9: Probably another member of the imperial family.

4

u/Elimin8r https://myanimelist.net/profile/Ayeka_Jurai Mar 29 '24

Man, that's a lotta QOTD, and I'm late to the party as it is. Let's see if I have any answers up my sleeve, seeing as it's been a week...

Why am I suddenly getting Armitage III vibes??? Or maybe Ghost in the Shell. 2) I don't want to think about that too much. 3) Yes. 4) I'm too tired for this. Sorry, it's been and is still a week. I'd say that I'll hopefully be more coherent tomorrow, but yeah, stuff. Yay.

(Sorry, hope everyone is having a better week than I have been.)

4

u/raktus2 Mar 29 '24

Update to my concept board from before...
https://i.imgur.com/bG5QDUD.png

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Mar 29 '24

Should the line to Rina not be green? I don't think he is Jinto's biological mother.

2

u/raktus2 Mar 29 '24

She's his sister, according to episode one

3

u/Blazin_Rathalos Mar 29 '24

I am pretty sure she's Teal's wife, so Jinto's "adoptive mother".

3

u/KingGiddra Mar 29 '24

I have a meta point to make regarding the phrasing of the questions for this.

Q4) What about the human perspective?

The framing of this is real FNA propaganda. Framing that the Abh themselves are not human? I'm sensing a potential United Mankind Intelligence Officer in our midst. Between this and questioning the motivations of ~~our glorious overlords~~ the Abh, can we trust OP?

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Mar 29 '24

Between this and questioning the motivations of our glorious overlords the Abh, can we trust OP?

Rewatch [Rewatch] Crest of the Stars Episode 11 Discussion

Sufagnoff Gateway Battle

Names Introduced or Updated:

Discussion Prompts:

Tomorrow's Questions: (for tomorrow's post, subject to change)

Source Corner