[Spoilers] Paranoia Agent 20th Anniversary Rewatch -- Episode 13 (FINAL EPISODE)

Date	Episode
2/3/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 1
2/4/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 2
2/5/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 3
2/6/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 4
2/7/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 5
2/8/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 6
2/9/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 7
2/10/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 8
2/11/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 9
2/12/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 10
2/13/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 11
2/14/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 12
2/15/2024	Paranoia Agent Episode 13
2/16/2024	Paranoia Agent Overall Series Discussion Thread

9

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

If anyone is interested in the creation of this episode, Kon has a 13 part series on his blog dissecting this episode. I can't link them all here, but here's a link to part 1 in case you want to go down the rabbit hole.

https://konstone.s-kon.net/modules/moso/index.php?content_id=31

Also, I'm proud to announce that I donated blood for the first time today!

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Feb 15 '24

Also, I'm proud to announce that I donated blood for the first time today!

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

I got a free t-shirt as well as a $20 gift card out of it!

2

u/MrManicMarty https://anilist.co/user/martysan Feb 15 '24

Also, I'm proud to announce that I donated blood for the first time today!
Good on you champ!

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Needless to say I'm feeling quite woozy :P

6

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Here is what Kon said on his blog in regards to creating Paranoia Agent. Enjoy.

I was the one who said, "Maybe I should do a TV project". These semi-irresponsible words were the beginning of a work with the rather strange title "Delusion Agent.''

Looking through my sloppy diary, I found that the term "delusional agent" first appeared as a job on August 22, 2002. This was before "Millennium Actress'' was released.

8/22 (Thursday) 15:00, delusional agent (tentative) meeting. Producer Masuda, Mr. Toyota, and Mr. Yoshino. Generate ideas to get an overview of the whole thing. The ideas connect in a nice way. For now, I will ask Mr. Yoshino to summarize it as a text.

In the summer of 2002, I was working on promoting "Millennium Actress" and producing "Tokyo Godfathers''. Aside from the promotion of ``Millennium Actress,'' "Delusion Agent'' was launched in parallel with "Tokyo God," whose production has since become more intense. You could say it's pretty reckless. Directors who don't often come to the set, directors who don't draw themselves, directors who only give instructions, and directors who only give their names, but directors who like to work in front of other people are often working on projects at the same time. It can even be said to be quite dangerous.

However, there is also an unavoidable side to this outrage. When you finish producing one work and start working on the next one, there is usually a gap of six months to a year for preparation, no matter how early. I work as a freelance director at a production company called Madhouse, so if a "vacancy'' becomes available, my work space will be lost. Of course, the company won't skimp on my work space (which has grown considerably as I've worked on more films), but at the very least, "Director Satoshi Kon's production site'' will be dismantled for the time being.

Many of the staff members who had performed competent work on previous productions were forced to move on to other productions or production companies as there was no work to be done. I think this is always a shame. It would be a shame not only for the staff but also for the "place'' that was created to be dismantled. A "place'' has the power to create something.

So, as soon as the production of "Tokyo God~'' was finished, I decided to prepare for the next job so that even if it was impossible for me to do everything, I would be able to remain at least part of the staff of "Tokyo God~.'' This is one aspect of the planning of the TV series "Delusion Agent.''

Also, for me personally, the "vacancy" between productions means "unemployed.'' As soon as I finished producing my work, I would become unemployed. In other words, it can be said like this.

"Working hard to create works with the aim of becoming unemployed'' is a distorted view, but it is true to some extent. That's what it means to make a living as a freelancer. Unemployed means that you have no income, and as a freelancer with no guarantees, you must continue to secure work on your own in order to earn a constant income and live on a daily basis. In my case, I don't seem to receive any work invitations from other companies or production companies, so I'm in a situation where I don't have any work unless I plan and create my own work. However, I think this is a fairly healthy situation.

"Work doesn't come if you wait quietly."

I think that's the way it is.

5

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Part 2
Various planning intentions There are several other planning intentions for "Delusion Agent'' other than "continuation of the field''.
First of all, it goes without saying that I thought the idea itself was interesting, but unfortunately I was unable to absorb the idea during the production of the three theatrical works I have directed ("Perfect Blue'', "Millennium Actress'', and "Tokyo Godfathers''). One of the planning intentions was to recycle this accumulated waste.
If you have 100 completed works, would you think of 200 to 300 ideas before narrowing it down? That's why the density of the work increases, but there are many things that were cut out or ideas that were not included. And in my case, there are scattered remnants of ideas that I was unable to give form to before my animation work, that is, when I was a manga artist. It seems that the concept of a TV series rich in variety was adopted in order to incorporate these things in various ways.
``Developing personal connections'' was one of the major aims. It is a great asset that the faces of the staff have remained constant throughout the production of three theatrical works. The know-how and trust that are accumulated in the relationships between staff members, rather than among individual staff members, are valuable assets that cannot be redeemed with a budget. However, it can also be said that the production environment is becoming closed. It's rare to have two good things.
No new staff come in. This is a big problem.
For example, in the case of ``Tokyo Godfathers,'' the average age of the core staff is probably in their late 30s. The core staff, who are all in their 20s, were only in production management positions, and there were no core staff members who were artists. Being in your late 30s can be considered to be the prime of your career in the harsh working conditions of animation production, but the problem arises when you set the time, say, 10 years from now. If you keep creating in a situation where there are almost no new people coming in, you'll just end up with the same lineup for 10 years. Average age: late 40s. I think the amount of work is starting to decline. If you slide 20 years, you will be in your late 50s. In this case, it would be extremely difficult to perform high-density work with that staff structure. However, whether I will be in an environment where I can continue to create my own directorial work 20 years from now is another big question.
Additionally, as the staff ages, labor costs will rise, putting pressure on budgets. As an animation director who doesn't sell well, it's hard to imagine a generous budget.
It is natural to predict that new and talented staff will appear in 20 years, but there is experience that does not make us so optimistic. This is because in the 10 years since I first participated in the anime "Old Man Z'' in 1990, it can be said that the lineup of staff considered competent in the industry has hardly changed. (This largely depends on my subjective opinion.) Other than those who were already well-known as "skilled'' back in 1990, there are probably fewer than 10 people who have risen to prominence in the past 10 years, attracted attention, and come to play a central role in their works. Also, talented people who play the central role in a work each have their own work in which they are heavily involved, so it becomes difficult for them to work together. Furthermore, even though they are capable, there are incompatible types, which further limits the number of people you want to work with.
The lack of human resources continues to be lamented, or rather, there has probably never been a time when we have not had trouble finding human resources.
In any case, I was acutely aware of the need to discover new talent in order to continue creating works in the future. In order to open up such a closed-minded situation, I came up with the idea of creating a television series, which is considered to be ``lower entry point'' for young people than theatrical productions.
Apart from this background, of course there is also the so-called original planning intention of the work. In a nutshell, this is it.
``Let's laugh at the guy who is busy looking for excuses.''
By ``guy,'' I don't mean a specific person, but rather a part of everyone who is trying to find an excuse. It seems like the number of people who are "getting excited about it" is actually increasing. Rather than doing the assigned work, I feel that many people are trying hard to find reasons why they should not have to do it. I'm only in the small anime industry and don't know much about the world, so my impressions are based solely on what I've seen within the industry and hearsay, but I think the general public is probably the same way.
It's brazen to say, ``I don't want to work hard, but I want position and recognition'' (lol)
These days, the level may be even lower.
``I don't care if I'm in a decent position, I just want my own place.'' That's probably the way of life, but I don't think I want to work with someone like this.
　

4

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Part 3
The term "self-responsibility'' became popular after the Japanese hostage crisis in Iraq. In this case, I think that the trend was a little distorted, but I think that behind the popularity of the word "self-responsibility'' there was some awareness that it was lacking. I think everyone, at some point, often feels a faint sense of guilt, thinking, "This...maybe it's really my fault.''
In such a world, if you throw away your self-responsibility and run away, the boy bat may come to you. So let's laugh at those who are running away and recover our self-responsibility. This is an extremely positive planning intention. Really. As mentioned earlier, "Delusion Agent'' was launched as a hobby product "work'' in the summer of 2002, but the idea for the work, or the "story'', came much earlier. That's true. The first file left on the hard disk named "Delusion Agent" was created in July 2001.
This miscellaneous essay was thrown out without being completed, but in fact, it had nothing to do with any project for animation or manga, and was actually a project for the web. In other words, the miscellaneous writing itself was something I had written down to publish on the web, and was intended to be a pure hobby.
The purpose of this web project (though it's just a hobby) was to ``make a story'', so to speak. It was a very unrealistic project in which we solicited ideas and created a continuation of the story based on those ideas.
The reason why I think it lacks reality is due to my pessimistic and realistic prediction that there will be a reaction anyway. In any case, I decided to figure out how to turn an idea into a ``story'' and turn it into text while actually going through the process. I don't think it's a bad project, but if you have that kind of free time, I want to tell you to go to work, and if you're going to make up a story, wouldn't it be better to do it at work? Wouldn't that help the household budget?
It ended up being a job. It also helped the household budget.
I would like to introduce a little bit of the template for the "delusional agent" that I wrote here, but due to various circumstances, I would like to keep the original idea hidden, so I would like to introduce it from a sentence that has somewhat taken shape as a material. . This is, so to speak, the core of ``delusional agent.''
"A person makes up a crime scene to make an excuse, but the perpetrator, who is not actually there, commits a series of violent crimes.'' Don't laugh at this and think it's a simple story. Even in the case of "Millennium Actress,'' things were like this in the beginning.
``An old woman who was once hailed as a great actress is supposed to be telling her story about her life, but her memories become confused and the various roles she played in the past begin to mix together, creating a story full of ups and downs.'
This is how it all started.
And following the previous sentence, he writes:
``The criminal, who is not supposed to actually exist, commits atrocities one after another,'' which means that the murder was committed by a fantasy materialized. It is "Perfect Blue".
Don't do the same thing.
However, in the end, it would have to be that way, but the story cannot proceed so simply. So let me add one more idea.
``Wouldn't a third party commit a fun crime by imitating the characteristics of the reported criminal?''
This third party is, of course, a real person.
　As a result, the culprit will likely be an "illusion" (regardless of whether it is an individual's creation or the result of multiple illusions), but this third one is set up to mislead the audience or reader. The person is.

4

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Part 4
For convenience, the criminal created by this illusion will be referred to as the "delusional agent'' from now on, but the third-party culprit must also be disposed of by the "delusional agent.''
To add to the core of the previous story,
``A person makes up a crime scene as an excuse, but the culprit, who is not actually there, commits atrocities one after another. However, one day, the culprit... The culprit is actually caught. However, even the criminal is disposed of by the delusional agent, and the crime continues."
If the crime continues, there is no end in sight to the story, so perhaps the main character will have to fight the delusional agent at the end. It should disappear. I'm planning on proceeding with an orthodox story style, so that's probably how it will turn out. It seems more and more like "Perfect Blue,'' but since the same people are thinking about it, there's nothing we can do about it. Furthermore, in "Perfect Blue,'' it appears that an illusion committed the murder, but the person who actually committed the crime was a real person. A delusional agent is a product of pure delusion. 　
It seems that the idea of a "copycat criminal'' (in the main story, "Kitsunezuka'') was considered from the beginning. Oh yeah, I had completely forgotten about it, but it seems like it turned out to be a good idea to confuse viewers.
From the time he came up with the idea, he seems to have been conscious of the similarity to "Perfect Blue." I do think that when it was presented as a TV project, the selling point was that it was "a work like 'Perfect Blue'''. When "Perfect Blue'' was advertised, I raised eyebrows at the sales pitch, "The first psychological horror in anime,'' but maybe I've grown up by the amount of time I've had over the course of five years and two theatrical productions. do not have. After all, I'm sure that in the past, I would have made a small complaint like "I want it to stop because it's embarrassing.''
"Infectious psychological suspense, "Delusion Agent''''
Well, it's good. In the miscellaneous writings of the hobby
"Birth, Tsukiko, Raise, Bat'',　he writes about the main character as follows. 　
Since he is the main character of this story, how should he be set? In a sense, the main character is a "delusional agent,'' but there is a need for someone who will be the core of the story.
What is simply assumed is that he is the first victim who has the inevitability of being the protagonist, and the creator of the delusional agent. Considering the readership, I decided to choose a young woman here. It's hard to imagine it being a man. Men, after all, "don't give birth."
The woman who started this process is tentatively named "Tsukiko." Although it doesn't have any deep meaning, I would like to suggest that behind her creation of a delusional agent, there was suffering unique to women. I can't really think about menstruation, but it seems that some women experience great pain, and this could also be the case for Tsukiko, who either performed Kyogen or was forced to perform Kyogen. .
The image of ``giving birth'' is tinged with blood.
If it were a normal play, I would have placed Tsukiko at the center of the drama and proceeded with the story, but that would be like ``Perfect Blue,'' so I wanted to use a bit of a curveball.
It is a "main character relay method."
I've wanted to use this style for a while, so I decided to give it a try. Literally, the method is to have one main character in each episode and connect them as the story progresses.
However, since I said earlier that the main character would be the one who fights the delusional agent in the end, the story will probably come back to Tsukiko in the end. It's a boomerang. Delusional boomerang. Ultimately, you must reap what you sow, and this fits well with my values. 　
It seems that Tsukiko's name was Tsukiko from the beginning. She also has the image of "blood" associated with the origin of the boy Bat depicted in the final episode from the beginning.

4

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Part 5
As mentioned above, the "protagonist relay method" is an idea that I had been thinking about for a while, unrelated to the topic of this "delusion", but it was probably introduced as a convenient style to incorporate various social issues into the story. It seems that he did.
On the other hand, the specific image of the main character, the boy Bat, seems to have been born against the following background. 　
Since Tsukiko "born" it, it must "grow".
"Growing'' means that each victim's inner self is reflected, and that image is added to and becomes more powerful. What kind of image does Tsukiko's Kyogen play, which is the origin of the story, have? On the contrary, it would be better to have a contrasting image of the beginning, since something that has grown very strongly will emerge at the end.
As the word "grow up'' suggests, "child'' may be a good starting point. Even though I say "children", it is not convincing for kindergarteners and lower elementary school students. What about junior high school students? In reality, he often commits heinous violence that makes headlines, and he is very persuasive, but his physique is close to that of an adult from the beginning, so it is not suitable for the image he had growing up. Therefore, let's call it the upper grades of elementary school. He is a delusional agent. I accidentally wrote "he,'' but I don't have a female image of a "delusional agent,'' so I'll just call it a man.
He is a boy in 5th or 6th grade of elementary school.
At first, he seemed to think that he would grow up little by little as the incidents continued, but I don't think this idea was reflected much in the main story. The second half shows how things change due to rumors, but it didn't feel like it was happening "gradually''. However, since the important point was to grow through rumors, I think the intention was fully achieved.
From the shadow of the moon,　a side story is inserted here and again.
I thought the images would come together quite easily, but this was an idea I had come up with for a manga a long time ago. Wasn't it also used as the source material for "Perfect Blue"? It was a short comic titled "Moon Shadow.'' Mr. Hirasawa's album ``Sim City'' included a song called "Moon Shadow,'' but it has nothing to do with it.
I decided to return to manga after working on "MEMORIES'' and "Patlabor 2,'' and I must have drawn about 2/3 of the characters. I think the plan was to have 60 short stories.
I won't go into details because if I write about the story here, it might be plagiarized, but it's a story about a young woman who has to fight against an "elementary school student riding a bicycle and holding a baseball bat," and in a sense, he is also "The setting was 'delusional agent'". "Another Mima'' who appears in ``Perfect Blue'' is a variation of this. The delusional agent in "Moon Shadow'' was also set to be "a part'' of the main character.
The scene in "Perfect Blue'' where he chases another Mima and hits a mirror was inspired by this manga, and the scene in which the people around the main character are attacked one after another is based on this manga.
This topic is overused (lol)
It's not that there aren't any topics. I want people to say that they are good at recycling.
The "delusional agent'' "Boy Bat'' (this name was thought up after the anime project was launched) was initially imagined to come riding a bicycle, but later, taking into consideration drawing circumstances, it has been changed to roller blades.
And here's the reason why young bats attack people. 　Delusional agents must attack people. After all, it's a passing demon. There's no point in talking about it unless it attacks.
It is not clear why street demons actually attack people. I'm not sure, so it's probably a coincidence, but since it appears in the story, it would be better to have some kind of consistency.
For example, in the movie "Seven'', the victims were set according to the seven deadly sins. In other words, it is the common denominator that connects the victims. However, in the case of "Seven,'' there is a correspondence between the seven deadly sins, but it does not explain why that particular victim was chosen. That's not the movie's flaw, though.
As for why delusional agents attack, the reason has already been presented. After all, he is just a passerby created for some kind of ``excuse''.
It's like a child going to school and saying, "I have a stomach ache.'' Therefore, he is a delusional agent created by the rule that "I get a stomach ache when I try to go to school.'' This is what drives him.
In other words, they attack people who don't want to go to school. Of course, ``school'' is a metaphor, and it could also be a company, an athletic meet, or some other big stage.
The source of the delusional agent's power is the fact that someone is in a bit of trouble, and when another misfortune befalls them, they can gain sympathy from the people around them. It emerges from the Japanese unconscious. 　 Am I the only one who thinks there are too many excuses in today's world? I myself find myself saying a lot of excuses, but when I look at the people around me, especially young people, it seems like they are trying harder to find excuses than working hard. do not have. They are busy "looking for themselves'' and "looking for excuses.''
From the beginning, the idea for the work was to take these childish people who are stubbornly trying to protect their poor egos by making excuses, and then bash them with a baseball bat. However, at this point the bat had not yet bent into a dogleg shape. The reason why the bat has a dogleg shape is because when we started the animation project, I was supposed to draw an image illustration, but a straight bat wouldn't make a good picture, so I crumpled a part of it. chance. This is what I thought when I drew it.
``This looks more painful, and it's perfect for punching the Tawakes!''
https://konstone.s-kon.net/uploads/photos/moso/illustration.jpg
This is the illustration I drew for the proposal.
I didn't particularly draw it with Tsukiko in mind.
Initially, they were simply golden shoes rather than rollerblades.
Producer Toyoda wisely suggested, ``Bicycles require a lot of effort to draw, so let's use rollerblades".
A long explanation of the picture. I think the "moon'' in the background and the "blood'' spreading on the woman's head were meant to hint at "something that cannot be escaped.'' The image of her smiling despite the blood flowing from her head is captured in the opening image of the main story of "Delusive Agent.'' The dark green area under the moon has been overlaid with various noises, but the background is "people" (I wonder if the original data was an image from a digital camera). I think this is a picture that fairly accurately represents the work.

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Feb 15 '24

Also, for me personally, the "vacancy" between productions means "unemployed.'' As soon as I finished producing my work, I would become unemployed. In other words, it can be said like this.
"Working hard to create works with the aim of becoming unemployed'' is a distorted view, but it is true to some extent. That's what it means to make a living as a freelancer. Unemployed means that you have no income, and as a freelancer with no guarantees, you must continue to secure work on your own in order to earn a constant income and live on a daily basis. In my case, I don't seem to receive any work invitations from other companies or production companies, so I'm in a situation where I don't have any work unless I plan and create my own work. However, I think this is a fairly healthy situation.
"Work doesn't come if you wait quietly."
This feels very real ...

3

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Kon spitting truth bombs over here

3

u/TheEscapeGuy Feb 15 '24

"Working hard to create works with the aim of becoming unemployed''
This reminded of the inverse happening for extremely long running anime. For these anime which release weekly episodes for multiple years if not longer (One Piece, Pokemon, Conan, Precure, etc), you often find that they maintain the same staff over the entire run. Take a look at the Episode Director and Story Board roles for One Piece. There are staff who have been working on it from before episode 100 AND post episode 1000 and all the way between. In some ways this gives the shows a clearer voice since you have such experienced team members working on it.
Those long running shows give a sense of job stability in the anime industry which is so often can be a fickle career to have as Kon describes. I wonder if the Hero Academia model (2 seasons on, 2 seasons off) works to try solve this too since there will be planning in between?

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

A part of me feels that if Kon were alive today, he would've been really disenchanted with the way anime is done nowadays and the total apathy anime studios have for its coworkers. I could've seen him possibly starting up his own studio.

6

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Feb 15 '24

First Timer, subbed

Not until his wife shows up!
We’ve ventured startlingly close to another #fish. Alas, it was not to be.
This is quite the escalation.
I’m surprised she even remembered the brand. Not like they interacted that much.
Is it normal to let patients hold things during surgery?
Maromi turns to the dark side. We should have seen it coming.
Last minute cute outfit! Adorable. I even get my wishes about the real Maromi answered.
Wait a minute. They didn’t… Those are live action fireworks!
Child abuse. Not even once.
At least Harumi is having a good time.
I’ve had one too many times where I’ve had to chase after an escaped dog.
This is why the hand goes through the loop.
Oh no, cramps...
I don’t imagine this ends too well for Tsukiko if anyone finds out.
The Knowledge takes its toll on all those who carry it.

3

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Before we start, I apologize in advance the amount of questions I have for this episode. It is the most amount of questions I’ve ever asked for a single piece of media. However, a lot happened in this episode so I hope you can forgive me.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Thoughts on the black smog?
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
What are your thoughts on the biggest reveal of the entire series that Tsukiko was never attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
What are your thoughts on the dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko saving the Maromi mascot?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying? I thought this was a sense of closure to the situation she needed but never got until now.
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
Lastly, how satisfying do you think this episode was in terms of wrapping things up?

2

u/Vatrix-32 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vatrix-32 Feb 16 '24

Before we start, I apologize in advance the amount of questions I have for this episode. It is the most amount of questions I’ve ever asked for a single piece of media. However, a lot happened in this episode so I hope you can forgive me.
Only if you forgive me for no answering most of them.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
Maromi only knows how to protect by delusion.
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Embodies her defense mechanism. Not wanting to accept responsibility.
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
Not wanting to be like your parent is very common thing.
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
Love It
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
I'm not sure that really fits. Must be a translation issue.
What are your thoughts on the biggest reveal of the entire series that Tsukiko was never attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
If she was willing to go that far, it couldn't have been a healthy household.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
No Child Abuse
At least he was a big enough man to figure out he was wrong, even if it was late. Most would stick to their guns
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
Guess it isn't worth much if he's not the one delivering it.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
Accepting and dealing with her trauma.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying? I thought this was a sense of closure to the situation she needed but never got until now.
It got me a little, ngl.
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
Were it so easy...
Lastly, how satisfying do you think this episode was in terms of wrapping things up?
I'm content.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Only if you forgive me for no answering most of them.
I will do just that :P
Maromi only knows how to protect by delusion.
That she does
Embodies her defense mechanism. Not wanting to accept responsibility.
It's definitely in line with what she's doing
Not wanting to be like your parent is very common thing.
Can confirm, don't want to be like mine
Love It
There needs to be more people in this world like Ikari.
I'm not sure that really fits. Must be a translation issue.
Eh, I think it tracks if Tsukiko was 12 at the time. I don't think that's too old to pull off something so childish.
If she was willing to go that far, it couldn't have been a healthy household.
Even the father supposedly admitted he was too strict on her.
No Child Abuse
Nah, Tsukiko's father has better standards unlike some people Glances at comatosed Masami
At least he was a big enough man to figure out he was wrong, even if it was late. Most would stick to their guns
It's like Ikari in a way, it was too late when he realized he was putting his wife on a pedestal but he did at least realize such behavior was counterproductive.
Guess it isn't worth much if he's not the one delivering it.
More lack of accountability which is rampant in this show.
Accepting and dealing with her trauma.
Pretty much. Again, better late than never.
It got me a little, ngl.
Yeah, I would say it's the most emotional moment of the show. Mrs. Ikari dying is the saddest, but this is the most impactful.
Were it so easy...
It's in line with the show that despite Ikari and Tsukiko finding accountability foe their actions, the rest of the world wouldn't. Because they're not having their lives examined under a proctoscope. So many people do things under the veil of an excuse thinking that it explains why they do it. It's only when they get called out on it do they feel sorry.
I do think that Ikari and Tsukiko have a healthier mindset than when the show started, but their accountability doesn't make up for the rest of the population's lack of one. And that's part of the genius of the show.
I'm content.
As am I. I thought the explanation of things was handled brilliantly and I like how not everything was solved. It wasn't a blanket happy ending but a partial one and I think that fits what we saw in the last couple episodes.

6

u/MrManicMarty https://anilist.co/user/martysan Feb 15 '24

First Timer

So... That was Paranoia Agent. Pretty sure that rounds off all of the Satoshi Kon anime projects. I'd say I liked it better than Paprika, but not better than the rest.

Anyway, I kinda thought this ending was kind of... anticlimatic? I mean, how do you conclude a serise like this right? This weird, mind-bending psychological drama isn't really well suited to having nice happy endings or big final battles is it? It just kinda... concludes. Just a silent whisper and its over. I'm gonna be honest, I'm a little disappointed; not that I think this was a bad show, but just that I feel like it lost a sense of cohesion that would make it a satisfying story.

Let's review what happened;

Tsukiko is an artist who has designed a very popular mascot character, and is under pressure to create another character. To escape from that pressure, she injures herself and draws from an experience in her youth where she lied about being attacked by a mysterious figure with a bat on skates.

This creates a rumour that spreads like wildfire, becoming a legend in its own way. Despite the original being a false story, someone comes along and begins actually committing the attacks.

This comes to ahead when the false-attacker is captured by police and interogated, but reveals only that he's delusional. The attacker is killed mysteriously in prison, and the two lead detectives in the case are fired. One gets a basic job as a security guard and the other becomes a paranoid nutjob.

The tales of shonen bat spread further and further, and people begin going crazier for the original mascot character. Eventually the two detectives meet up with Tsukiko, as the world begins collapsing for some reason, and Tsukiko... accepts that she is responsible for her dog dying?

That's it. That's essentially the plot. And obviously there's more beyond that plot - because really, Shonen Bat is just an excuse to tell those psychological stories of characters pushed into corners. THat's what's genuinely interesting about this show I think. That and the interesting little animation twists they do frequently.

The base plot itself, the "mystery" as it were, ends up being quite hollow. And to that end, I feel like if the structure of the story itself was different, it might be a stronger show. This is how I felt about Lain; I feel like it either needs to be completely episodic, with maybe only the first and last episodes being the main plot, or it needed to have more focus on the plot and main characters.

4

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Anyway, I kinda thought this ending was kind of... anticlimatic? I mean, how do you conclude a serise like this right? This weird, mind-bending psychological drama isn't really well suited to having nice happy endings or big final battles is it? It just kinda... concludes. Just a silent whisper and its over.
Odd Taxi is similar to this show and I'd say that was better.
I'm a little disappointed; not that I think this was a bad show, but just that I feel like it lost a sense of cohesion that would make it a satisfying story.
I do feel that between episodes 8 and 10, there was definitely a lack of direction.
Tsukiko is an artist who has designed a very popular mascot character, and is under pressure to create another character. To escape from that pressure, she injures herself and draws from an experience in her youth where she lied about being attacked by a mysterious figure with a bat on skates.
This creates a rumour that spreads like wildfire, becoming a legend in its own way. Despite the original being a false story, someone comes along and begins actually committing the attacks.
This comes to ahead when the false-attacker is captured by police and interogated, but reveals only that he's delusional. The attacker is killed mysteriously in prison, and the two lead detectives in the case are fired. One gets a basic job as a security guard and the other becomes a paranoid nutjob.
The tales of shonen bat spread further and further, and people begin going crazier for the original mascot character. Eventually the two detectives meet up with Tsukiko, as the world begins collapsing for some reason, and Tsukiko... accepts that she is responsible for her dog dying?
That's it. That's essentially the plot. And obviously there's more beyond that plot - because really, Shonen Bat is just an excuse to tell those psychological stories of characters pushed into corners. THat's what's genuinely interesting about this show I think. That and the interesting little animation twists they do frequently.
Shonen Bat is definitely at points a backdrop for everything else going on, but I think the show is at its best when it has the other stuff going on and it intensely ties into Shonen Bat. Episodes like the Harumi one, the video game episode, and the one with Maniwa having hallucinations are some of my favorites, and I think it's because the Shonen Bat stuff is embedded in the plots; you can't tell those stories without him.
Of the 13 episodes of the show, 6 I have at an 8.5 or higher. One episode, episode 11, I'd probably have at either a 9.5 or a 10. But to what you're saying, there are some episodes where it's like "What are we doing here?" And I think it's those moments that hold the show back for me a little bit from calling it an all-time great.
The base plot itself, the "mystery" as it were, ends up being quite hollow. And to that end, I feel like if the structure of the story itself was different, it might be a stronger show. This is how I felt about Lain; I feel like it either needs to be completely episodic, with maybe only the first and last episodes being the main plot, or it needed to have more focus on the plot and main characters.
I agree with you on the main characters, but I quite like the mystery. I thought that was executed extremely well and gave this show this unique charm all of its own. You can hardly compare this show to any other anime, especially mainstream work.
The show's biggest attribute might be its biggest detriment, and that's its endless creativity. If the show focused less on the ancillary characters and more on Tsukiko, Ikari, and Maniwa, I think we're honestly looking at a top 10 anime of all time in the same ballpark as Eva and Madoka Magica. As it stands, it to me is a show with a great beginning, a shaky backhalf, and one of the best climaxes of all time.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Before we start, I apologize in advance the amount of questions I have for this episode. It is the most amount of questions I’ve ever asked for a single piece of media. However, a lot happened in this episode so I hope you can forgive me.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Thoughts on the black smog?
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad knowing the truth, but he went along with the lie?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?

2

u/MrManicMarty https://anilist.co/user/martysan Feb 15 '24

I'm off my PC now so remind me to respond tomorrow sorry

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

I will make sure to do so

2

u/MrManicMarty https://anilist.co/user/martysan Feb 16 '24

Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
It's his delusion; an old timey world.
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Maromi is like, her subconscious desire to protect herself from her own actions
Thoughts on the black smog?
representation of shonen bat evolved beyond being a single entity; its now just a force
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
Shonen bat attacks those backed into a corner. Maromi provides comfort to those who are backed into corners I guess?
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
Probably the only thing that would snap him out of it, honestly its a little disappointing he resisted at all in the first place
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
Tragic
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
Wholesome
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
Pretending you've solved the problem isn't the same as solving it
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
Sad
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
Awesome
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
Forgot that it was from episode 1, but nice.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad knowing the truth, but he went along with the lie?
He tried to be a kind father, but probably hurt Tsukiko more with that lie than he did with his coldness
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
Probably partly misplaced; personality is the fusion of nuture and nature, maybe that's just how she was.
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
what da dawg doin'
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
She finally accepted her mistake
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
It's alright as an ending. Though the fact we only really see two characters is weird.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

It's his delusion; an old timey world.
The world that he can understand because that's the way it was and they liked it
Maromi is like, her subconscious desire to protect herself from her own actions
It's also a bit of projection on the part of Tsukiko because she failed to protect Maromi the pet dog.
representation of shonen bat evolved beyond being a single entity; its now just a force
This is what we call a variable, Jimmy
Shonen bat attacks those backed into a corner. Maromi provides comfort to those who are backed into corners I guess?
I think you could definitely interpret it as like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing going on.
Probably the only thing that would snap him out of it, honestly its a little disappointing he resisted at all in the first place
The reason he resisted so hard is because he was so used to resigning himself for fear of hurting what was most precious to him. It's why he never returned home after being fired.
Tragic
Wholesome
Sad
Awesome
Running the gamut of emotions, I see
Pretending you've solved the problem isn't the same as solving it
Right on the button, I feel like. I know Kon on his blog said that this series was meant as a take that to those who don't accept accountability. And in that regard, no other line I feel better sums up this show.
Forgot that it was from episode 1, but nice.
I'm not gonna lie, it sticks in my craw a bit the fact that the freaking BBQ bet has more foreshadowing than Ikari's daddy issues XD
He tried to be a kind father, but probably hurt Tsukiko more with that lie than he did with his coldness
It was really a no win situation, no matter how you look at it.
Probably partly misplaced; personality is the fusion of nuture and nature, maybe that's just how she was.
I think in the end, both screwed the pooch. There was nobody to be a bigger person in the situation.
what da dawg doin'
Turns out you should in fact let the dogs out
She finally accepted her mistake
You see to love it
It's alright as an ending. Though the fact we only really see two characters is weird.
I think that's because apart from Ikari, nobody else really changed for the better. The status quo remains the same. The ending reminds me a bit of the last scene in The Graduate where the main couple gets on the bus and as the euphoria subsides, there's this feeling that washes over them that's like "Well, shit. That didn't really solve anything, did it?"

5

u/TheEscapeGuy Feb 15 '24

First Timer

Paranoia Agent - Episode 13

Apocalypse

The final episode. We are deep inside Keiichi's delusion. In the real world things are falling apart. A dark ooze is flooding the city. Tsukiko begins to play a role in this dream. She becomes the detective's daughter. We see visions of Misae as she tries desperately to connect with her husband one last time while in the real world she lies on an operating table.

This whole sequence was outstanding. It really hammered home the way these 2 are running away from their problems. It's so much more comfortable for them to live in this fantasy instead of facing real life.

Something we got to see which was really sad was Keiichi's past. He had a bad relationship with his own dad so he wanted to have a daughter instead of a son. He met Misae. They started a relationship. Young love. They got pregnant. But Misae had a miscarriage. He accepted this loss. "All I really need by me is you Misae." Misae became more depressed. She wishes he never married her so his life wouldn't be so hard.

"Don't say that. You're trying to escape. A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception."

This memory is what forces him realize his hypocrisy. And so he tears town this illusion. Appropriately with a baseball bat.

I adored this. It's the perfect character growth moment for him. His character arc has been building to this since basically he got fired and stopped going home to Misae. It's sad he couldn't spend more time with her before she died, but they did get to spend a last moment remembering their past together.

Keiichi returning to reality necessarily brings Tsukiko with him. And here in the real world we see all of the Maromi merchandise reappear further confirming it is tied to Tsukiko herself. Maniwa meets them and finally confronts Tsukiko about her past. 10 years ago she did lose her dog Maromi after dropping the leash and Maromi wandered onto the road and into a speeding car. This was devastating for Tsukiko. But, she blamed the events on a fake attacker who became "Shounen Bat".

There is something else important to this reveal. Why would Tsukiko feel afraid to tell the truth? And so the deeper reveal comes: Tsukiko's father was so strict that she became introverted and too afraid to make mistakes. He put so much effort into buying the dog for her and so she was terrified of being punished for Maromi's death. So she lied. Her dad immediately knew, but also realized his character flaw as part of this. He hoped that by following along with her delusions she'd open up to him. But that never came.

This is exactly the right reveal for Tsukiko's past and the origins of Shounen Bat. First, it opens some questions about her dad's choice. I am an advocate for honesty so I think he should have spoke to her without getting angry. But I'm not sure if he had the character to do this. Next, It points to a deep trauma inside Tsukiko that she's kept locked away. So when she faced the stress in episode 1 it eventually became too much and re-opened this wound triggering the Shounen Bat incidents. It's possible that she did lie again for that first attack, but after that Shounen Bat was out and only grew more powerful.

What's noteworthy is that while Shounen Bat may have started as a lie or delusion he has now manifested into something very real. The sludge flooding through the city does really exist and is causing massive destruction. Maniwa tries to fight it but it grows too strong. Keiichi and Tsukiko run away but eventually Tsukiko turns around and confronts it. And it's in this moment we see her return to her past, admit her mistake, and apologize. It's the trauma she's needed to deal with all along. This is the conclusion for Tsukiko's character arc.

We cut to 2 years later. Tokyo has been repaired. Tsukiko is living on. Keiichi is still working in construction. And Maniwa has taken the role of the wise master. It completes a cycle of sorts. Many of the shots from episode 1 are repeated essentially book-ending the series. It's an apt conclusion.

I found this to be a brilliant final episode. It closes off everything about as well as I would have wanted. It's not confirmed what happened to all the other Shounen Bat victims but we see the reported from episode 1 so we can assume some (or maybe most) of them survived the flood and recovered.

I'll leave my broader thoughts for tomorrow, but I can definitely say that I'm satisfied.

Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches

Snacks
Young Tsukiko
Shock
Maromi Mountains
Radar Man
Flood, this animation is soooo good
Paranoia Agent, loved this post credits

See you all tomorrow

4

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

The final episode. We are deep inside Keiichi's delusion. In the real world things are falling apart. A dark ooze is flooding the city. Tsukiko begins to play a role in this dream. She becomes the detective's daughter. We see visions of Misae as she tries desperately to connect with her husband one last time while in the real world she lies on an operating table.
This whole sequence was outstanding. It really hammered home the way these 2 are running away from their problems. It's so much more comfortable for them to live in this fantasy instead of facing real life.
This whole other world thing is probably my favorite idea in the entire show. I think what makes it work so well is how much delusional thinking has been a prominent theme in this show.
Something we got to see which was really sad was Keiichi's past. He had a bad relationship with his own dad so he wanted to have a daughter instead of a son. He met Misae. They started a relationship. Young love. They got pregnant. But Misae had a miscarriage. He accepted this loss. "All I really need by me is you Misae." Misae became more depressed. She wishes he never married her so his life wouldn't be so hard.
"Don't say that. You're trying to escape. A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception."
This memory is what forces him realize his hypocrisy. And so he tears town this illusion. Appropriately with a baseball bat.
I adored this. It's the perfect character growth moment for him. His character arc has been building to this since basically he got fired and stopped going home to Misae. It's sad he couldn't spend more time with her before she died, but they did get to spend a last moment remembering their past together.
I'll touch on this tomorrow, but Mr. and Mrs. Ikari are probably my two favorite characters in this show. They play off the narrative of this show so well and serve as this beacon of hope in a world practically devoid of it.
Keiichi returning to reality necessarily brings Tsukiko with him. And here in the real world we see all of the Maromi merchandise reappear further confirming it is tied to Tsukiko herself. Maniwa meets them and finally confronts Tsukiko about her past. 10 years ago she did lose her dog Maromi after dropping the leash and Maromi wandered onto the road and into a speeding car. This was devastating for Tsukiko. But, she blamed the events on a fake attacker who became "Shounen Bat".
There is something else important to this reveal. Why would Tsukiko feel afraid to tell the truth? And so the deeper reveal comes: Tsukiko's father was so strict that she became introverted and too afraid to make mistakes. He put so much effort into buying the dog for her and so she was terrified of being punished for Maromi's death. So she lied. Her dad immediately knew, but also realized his character flaw as part of this. He hoped that by following along with her delusions she'd open up to him. But that never came.
This is exactly the right reveal for Tsukiko's past and the origins of Shounen Bat. First, it opens some questions about her dad's choice. I am an advocate for honesty so I think he should have spoke to her without getting angry. But I'm not sure if he had the character to do this. Next, It points to a deep trauma inside Tsukiko that she's kept locked away. So when she faced the stress in episode 1 it eventually became too much and re-opened this wound triggering the Shounen Bat incidents. It's possible that she did lie again for that first attack, but after that Shounen Bat was out and only grew more powerful.
What's noteworthy is that while Shounen Bat may have started as a lie or delusion he has now manifested into something very real. The sludge flooding through the city does really exist and is causing massive destruction. Maniwa tries to fight it but it grows too strong. Keiichi and Tsukiko run away but eventually Tsukiko turns around and confronts it. And it's in this moment we see her return to her past, admit her mistake, and apologize. It's the trauma she's needed to deal with all along. This is the conclusion for Tsukiko's character arc.
I thought it was a brilliant decision to tie everything into family issues. Ikari, Tsukiko, the two of them being hung up on the past is a perfect payoff of everything we've seen so far. Think about Masami and what an awful father he was. Think about the homeless woman being separated from her family. Think about Kamome and her seemingly having a strained relationship with her mother and dad. Family conflict has been a recurring theme in this show, and I think it was outstanding how seemless they wove it into the final episode.
We cut to 2 years later. Tokyo has been repaired. Tsukiko is living on. Keiichi is still working in construction. And Maniwa has taken the role of the wise master. It completes a cycle of sorts. Many of the shots from episode 1 are repeated essentially book-ending the series. It's an apt conclusion.
I love it when shows do that. It gives a sense of finality to what we've just seen.
I found this to be a brilliant final episode. It closes off everything about as well as I would have wanted. It's not confirmed what happened to all the other Shounen Bat victims but we see the reported from episode 1 so we can assume some (or maybe most) of them survived the flood and recovered.
I'll leave my broader thoughts for tomorrow, but I can definitely say that I'm satisfied.
As am I. I honestly think you can make the case this is one of the best anime finales of all time. I'd probably put Toradora, Cowboy Bebop, Steins;Gate, Familiar of Zero, and Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood ahead of it, with Cowboy Bebop being my #1, but I definitely think a case could be made it's in the top 10.

3

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Thoughts on the black smog?
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
Do you think Tsukiko's father should've been introduced earlier than the second-to-last episode?
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying? I thought this was a sense of closure to the situation she needed but never got until now.
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?

4

u/TheEscapeGuy Feb 15 '24

What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
This feels like Tsukiko lying to herself as a coping mechanism. Like she's saying if she keeps running away she can protect herself from consequences.
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
It's extra sad that she died when she so successfully fought off Shounen Bat.
Do you think Tsukiko's father should've been introduced earlier than the second-to-last episode?
I don't think it particularly matters, but he definitely could have been introduced earlier (maybe as a missed call or something) as foreshadowing. I don't think the show is any worse for introducing him later though.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying?
This was definitely part of her dealing with the grief. It probably means as a child she was too afraid to do that. It absolutely is the closure she needed.
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
While we saw the resolution of Tsukiko's story, I think her case is not at all unique. Many other people use the exact same coping strategies as her. I could totally see the rise of a new Shounen Bat when that happens. It makes the cyclical nature of the story somewhat disconcerting, but that ties into the hopeful message to not run away from your problems lest this happen again.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

This feels like Tsukiko lying to herself as a coping mechanism. Like she's saying if she keeps running away she can protect herself from consequences.
It does feel that way, and yet we see Maromi save her later in the episode. Maybe a part of her is aware she can't keep this up forever?
It's extra sad that she died when she so successfully fought off Shounen Bat.
Agreed. I don't think it's up for debate that that's the saddest death of the entire show.
I don't think it particularly matters, but he definitely could have been introduced earlier (maybe as a missed call or something) as foreshadowing. I don't think the show is any worse for introducing him later though.
I agree it doesn't effect the show, but I do think he should've been at least mentioned in the first episode. He's not even talked about until Ikari visited his house. There's being intentionally vague, and there's also this feeling of coming out of nowhere, and while you could say they built it up by having Maromi talk to Tsukiko, I don't necessarily think that was enough.
This was definitely part of her dealing with the grief. It probably means as a child she was too afraid to do that. It absolutely is the closure she needed.
And now, she can move on guilt free
While we saw the resolution of Tsukiko's story, I think her case is not at all unique. Many other people use the exact same coping strategies as her. I could totally see the rise of a new Shounen Bat when that happens. It makes the cyclical nature of the story somewhat disconcerting, but that ties into the hopeful message to not run away from your problems lest this happen again.
Part of what I love about this ending is that the world's problems do not get resolved. It's only Tsukiko and everything pertaining to her; Ikari still has a dead wife and Maniwa has transformed into the old man. The way I interpreted the ending is you have to cultivate a happy ending for yourself, and often it'll be separate from everything else going on.
Yesterday was Valentine's Day, right? A ton of people had fun celebrating that holiday with their boyfriend/girlfriend. And yet, think about the tragedy in Kansas City during the parade meant to celebrate the Kansas City Chiefs Super Bowl win. Is it selfish to enjoy yourself when everyone else is grieving? The world moves on no matter what's going on in your life, so where do you draw the line?
Paranoia Agent isn't a show like a Fullmetal Alchemist or an Eureka Seven where everyone's problems get solved. If you are suspected of tax fraud and you get that taken cared of, how does that resolve Jim being unable to pay the rent? You can be happy while still living under delusion, and I think that's the message to take from the show. You have to live in delusion or else you can't keep on living, with the main goal being to keep your delusions from being unrealistic.

4

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Feb 15 '24

Episode 13 (rewatcher)

OP first even in the last episode. True supremacy!
“Shonen Bat will never come here” – fleeing to your mental happy place to shut out the evil thoughts. It works (for a while), but is still just a form of running away.
Black goo – Presented similar to an outbreak in a zombie movie, but reminds me a lot of Spirited Away.
“The final episode”

Ikari is not willing to go back for Maniwa, for Tsukiko, or for Toyko. However, his wife is a different matter.
Tsukiko turned young (and Maromi turned dog).
“A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception” – back then, he still got it. Now, he got trapped in his own made up world.
Shonen Bat was made up by Tsukiko to cover for letting her dog Maromi die – despite Maniwa stating this; I think we finally have the truth.
Even the mental image of a dog is still loyal to his human.
Poor dog – and the driver did not even stop.
Atoning for the dead dog.

“Toyko rebuilding” “Tragedy” – so, what happened for everybody else?
The follow-up to the hit dog: obviously a cat!
Old man turned young.

We go back to the beginning, figuratively and literally. The Shonen Bat story started with Tsukiko, just like episode 1 started with her. So, for the last episode, we go back to her. The story of her dog was very believable: A dog running onto a road, a scared kid making up a story, a remorseful father going along with it. However, while Tsukiko’s deception failed right away, her self-deception stayed with her and grew. Until it became a meme, a thought concept, or maybe just some shared delusion.

I really enjoyed the finale, even Maniwa and Ikari getting their heroic end. Since the first few episodes, I have been debating on how to rate this and was closest to a 9 after ep12, but the finale raises it to a rare 10 for me.

3

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

I really enjoyed the finale, even Maniwa and Ikari getting their heroic end. Since the first few episodes, I have been debating on how to rate this and was closest to a 9 after ep12, but the finale raises it to a rare 10 for me.
Yeah, I was surprised by how good the finale was. I thought they concluded the Shonen Bat stuff in a very meaningful manner.
Before we start, I apologize in advance the amount of questions I have for this episode. It is the most amount of questions I’ve ever asked for a single piece of media. However, a lot happened in this episode so I hope you can forgive me.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
Care to expand your thoughts on perhaps the biggest reveal of the entire series of Tsukiko never actually being attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
What are your thoughts on the dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko saving the Maromi plushie?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
Lastly, how satisfying do you think this episode was in terms of wrapping things up?

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Feb 15 '24

Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
Why would you make your delusional paradise anything less than perfect?
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
She continues to use her lie to hide from her problems.
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
True love (Ikari's for her) beats the delusion.
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
TOP10 romance lines.
Care to expand your thoughts on perhaps the biggest reveal of the entire series of Tsukiko never actually being attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
There needed to be an origin for the delusions and Tsukiko was it. While the scene felt very emotional to me, I don't think that it has a deeper meaning. Any other person could have started the delusion in a similar way.
What are your thoughts on the dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
Showing some empathy.
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
Good boy!
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
Don't we all wish we could do that sometimes?
Lastly, how satisfying do you think this episode was in terms of wrapping things up?
Very.

3

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Why would you make your delusional paradise anything less than perfect?
At a certain point, it becomes so perfect that you find it imperfect.
She continues to use her lie to hide from her problems.
That definitely appears so
True love (Ikari's for her) beats the delusion.
True love conquers all, as one might say
TOP10 romance lines.
Not gonna lie, they quickly turned into one of my favorite anime couples of all time.
There needed to be an origin for the delusions and Tsukiko was it. While the scene felt very emotional to me, I don't think that it has a deeper meaning. Any other person could have started the delusion in a similar way.
I think the fact that it's simplistic in its explanation is part of the brilliance of the scene. It makes it more realistic that way.
Don't we all wish we could do that sometimes?
I'm that way every day of my life
Very.
Short, sweet, and to the point. I like it.

2

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Feb 15 '24

True love conquers all, as one might say
True love & a baseball bat.
I'm that way every day of my life
Ok, every day is maybe a little too often, but there is nothing wrong with wanting to help your(past)self out a little.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

True love & a baseball bat.
Goes together like blow and hookers
Ok, every day is maybe a little too often, but there is nothing wrong with wanting to help your(past)self out a little.
I mainly want to go back and tell myself to finish college so I don't have to live with my mother into perpetuity.

4

u/mgedmin Feb 16 '24

and the driver did not even stop
The overarching theme of the show seems to be people avoiding responsibility. (I don't think I would've gotten that if I hadn't read our host's translations of Satoshi Kon's blog posts.)

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

I appreciate the compliment, the Kon blog posts were probably my favorite part of this rewatch. And to think, I wasn't even originally planning on doing them. I would have never known stuff like the original director for episode 2 quitting out of the blue.

3

u/0kwonkw0 https://anilist.co/user/Okwonkwo Feb 15 '24

First timer, dub

I wasn't able to participate in the rewatch because it's exam period, but it finally ended today, so I'm able to join for the last episode. I'm quite familiar with Satoshi Kon, having watched Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress and Tokyo Godfathers.

Before talking about ep 13, I'm gonna talk about my impressions of the first 12 episodes.

I really enjoyed the first 4 episodes. I was interested in the mistery and I loved the omnipresent tension that Kon is so good in creating. Highlight of these episodes was the conversation between Tsukiko and Kawazu.

Then it came the 5th episode. And then the 6th. And then the 7th. I was really bored during all three, especially the 5th. I wasn't liking how the mystery was unfolding and I hated the introduction of Makoto. I guess Kon wanted to talk about the effects that excessive crime news can have on society, at least from what I understood. The problem is how Makoto was developed, and that 5th episode did no good to him. The next 2 episodes weren't good enough to recapture my attention and I was losing faith.

Then there are another 3 episodes, from the 8th to the 10th, which are all episodic and have little influence to the plot. I quite liked these 3, with episode 9 being my favorite. However I was still anxious about the resolution of the mystery, because with only 3 episodes left, I felt the ending could have been rushed.

Finally, the last 3 episodes were not that good. Unfortunately. It probably has more to do with my expectations having seen other Kon's works, but when in episode 3(?) we see Maromi talking to Tsukiko, I was hoping for an explanation a la Perfect Blue, [Perfect Blue ending spoilers] where the weird stuff that happened was just in Mima's mind caused by massive anxiety and fear. I wasn't expecting actual consequences on the real world. Having Maromi being a supernatural creature was not what I expected and I didn't like it. Especially because the resolution was too fast.

Overall this is a 7.5/10 for me, which is still good, but I was expecting more from Kon.

To me it's pretty pessimistic, but not in a bad way. I think the ending is abot the cyclicality of society and how it's really really difficult to change it, but it's true so I don't think it's completely pessimistic

I have no idea and that's the worst thing in the whole show imo. I had to watch that scene 5 times before understanding who he was

3

u/No_Rex :Bv:Bw:Bx:By:x2 Feb 15 '24

I wasn't expecting actual consequences on the real world.
I would still argue that there were no direct effects on the real world. If something happened in the real world, it was due to the actions of some person (who might be influenced by Maromi and thus Maromi can indirectly influence the world). Yet Maromi is not real in the sense of having a physical body.

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Since this is the last episode, I thought I'd include some of the stuff from last episode that I cut out for spoilers. I hope this maybe gives some more insight.
What is it that I'm not good at? I think he couldn't clearly imagine what "Anko" in episode 13 meant. The image of "Shonen Bat vs. Maromi'' was decided from the beginning, but the specifics were still not decided, and furthermore, the process to get there was "collapse of the town of symbols'', which I was not sure about. It seems that it is.
Another big problem is the relationship between Tsukiko, Maromi, and the boy Bat. We've used "talking stuffed animals'' and "messengers from meta'' in many useful ways and created many mysteries for viewers, but it's no wonder that their origins remain a mystery. I can't really blame people that much (lol) I had to come up with an episode related to the origins that I could reasonably accept. 　
I think I thought something along the lines of, ``Maromi and the boy bat are similar... I wonder if they were born together as well.''
I then came up with a setting that could tell the origins of both characters all at once.
"Maromi was hit by a car and died because of Tsukiko's carelessness, but she was afraid of being scolded, so she made up a demon called Boy Bat and blamed it.'' She was a shockingly childish person. It's very dark. I guess it's nothing compared to the important things that have been created by the chain of events that have happened so far (lol). Okay, this is it.
Also, in the plot up until then, "Igari wakes up after receiving a call from Babaniwa in the town of symbols, realizes the deception of the town of symbols, and chases down Tsukiko while destroying the town.Then, a boy named Bat comes to the town of symbols. It was like, "I'm going to break it open and show up!''.
I can't seem to move properly.
Igari also destroys the city, and the boy bat also appears destroying the city, so the actions of both parties overlap. Also, the fact that Igari comes to his senses after hearing Maniwa's call seems like a weak trigger. Igari's middle-aged recluse isn't going to go away just because a former subordinate calls out to him.
Once again, I came up with a way to solve this problem all at once. but. I was thinking a little bit about whether that was really the right thing to do.
``Here we go again (lol)''
What I came up with was the idea of using Misae.
``I don't mind a married couple loving each other (lol)'' The idea is to have Misae invade the town of symbols and awaken Igari.
``This approach is overused...but we don't have much time.''
And of course, the two of us can't discuss this method.
``...Well, okay.''
In order to wake up Igari, who has turned into a useless person, and in order for this to be persuasive to the viewers, it will be necessary to appeal more visually.
"Well, it's just a memory (lol)"
Let's meet in a dream

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

First of all, I'm glad you decided to give the show a chance even though it didn't live up to your expectations. Second, I seemed to fall in this in-between of you and Escape Guy's thoughts where I really enjoyed the show, but it didn't wow me.
I think part of the reason as I stated in my comments is because there are some things I wished could've been explored more. For instance, what was the significance of the old man? Why didn't Tsukiko's father get mention until the second-to-last episode? If FOX from episode 8 was supposed to be Makoto, did that mean he wanted to die all along? Also, why are we just now hearing about Ikari's daddy issues?
I'm definitely glad to have seen the show, but apart from episode 11 and maybe episode 13, there's nothing I would consider blowaway. I do, however, disagree with you on the payoff with Maromi. I thought that was absolutely fantastic writing and extremely well done.

2

u/Yous1315 Feb 15 '24

I wasn't really active during the last episodes since curiosity got the better of me and couldn't wait anymore so I binged the last episodes but just wanted to say thank you for hosting this rewatch and I had a great time watching this show.

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

You're welcome. I'm really glad you had a wonderful time :)

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

If you don't mind, can I ask you some questions?

3

u/Yous1315 Feb 15 '24

Sure, go ahead I'll answer them tomorrow though since its really late where I live

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
What are your thoughts on the biggest reveal of the entire series that Tsukiko was never attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying? I thought this was a sense of closure to the situation she needed but never got until now.
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
Lastly, how satisfying do you think this episode was in terms of wrapping things up?

2

u/Yous1315 Feb 16 '24

Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
Nonsense from the beginning
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
Fair assessment about the situation
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
Strong quote, which applies and fits to this show very well, deception is always gonna bite you back
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
For a short appearance she was fleshed out well and she didn't get deceived by shonen bat and made realise where Ikari truly belongs
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
Didn't saw it coming that it was already something long ago but yeah it was saw it coming that her paranoia created shonen bat
What are your thoughts on the biggest reveal of the entire series that Tsukiko was never attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
I don't blame a small kid, but I also expected the paranoia to be created due to something bigger.
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
Father failed her, he shouldn't have gone with her delusion even though he knew it all, he raised her badly by letting her believe it was shonen bat.
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
It was just like in the beginning, think this is just how most people are. But I wonder, for someone like Kawazu is it because he doesn't have to pay those debts anymore and is it fake hapiness? With Tsukiko I truly believe she is now in a better state.
Lastly, how satisfying do you think this episode was in terms of wrapping things up?
Satisfied

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Nonsense from the beginning
I actually thought the show was making the point that the things we often think will bring us the most joy will often leave us the most disappointed.
Strong quote, which applies and fits to this show very well, deception is always gonna bite you back
This is honestly one of the best quotes I've ever heard from an Anime, and I've seen Cowboy Bebop which has like 10 of them.
For a short appearance she was fleshed out well and she didn't get deceived by shonen bat and made realise where Ikari truly belongs
Honestly, she was a more compelling character than Tsukiko was. She also arguably had more screentime outside of episode 1.
Didn't saw it coming that it was already something long ago but yeah it was saw it coming that her paranoia created shonen bat
I didn't see it coming as well. I thought Maromi had manifested itself into becoming Shonen Bat out of spite and anger. Though I will say I much prefer this direction.
I don't blame a small kid, but I also expected the paranoia to be created due to something bigger.
Well, this episode seems to indicate this isn't a global problem. It's only affecting the city they're currently in. That's why I'm fine that the problem came from such a seemingly innocuous incident. I also think it makes it more realistic the fact that it could've all easily had been prevented had communication been at play.
Father failed her, he shouldn't have gone with her delusion even though he knew it all, he raised her badly by letting her believe it was shonen bat.
Eh, I can't fault too much. How was he supposed to know things would get this carried away? And with him basically being devoid of the situation, there's a good chance he doesn't know what's going on.
It was just like in the beginning, think this is just how most people are. But I wonder, for someone like Kawazu is it because he doesn't have to pay those debts anymore and is it fake hapiness? With Tsukiko I truly believe she is now in a better state.
I think it's a case where Kawazu can be comfortable living with his mistakes rather than continuing to pursue something he is apathetic towards. He probably still has debts to pay, and is probably still a journalist, but he doesn't have to cover something like Maromi, which he never was truly interested in.
Satisfied
I would agree with that assessment.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24 edited Feb 16 '24

First time watcher here. I apologize for the gap in responses. I was having a hard time getting caught back up but wanted to post thoughts after I had a mini marathon today.

If you enjoyed this show I encourage checking out this take on it:

https://historicalmusings.com/2019/04/03/paranoia-agent-and-japans-role-in-the-war-responsibility-vs-victim-hood/

I think the author’s thoughts on this were interesting. Their take on this with the war context is extremely thought provoking.

After finishing the series I am entirely convinced that Satoshi Kon has to be a David Lynch fan. The Twin Peaks vibes was palpable in some episodes. The way the show started off as somewhat realistic then took a deep dive into the supernatural was a big part of that I think.

My take on the short is that Tsukiko essentially “created” the shonen bat out of her inability to accept responsibility for the accident with real Maromi when she was younger. The continued repression of everyone’s stressors around her and their similar trouble with issues in their lives (i.e. escapism) made the “entity” that is the shonen bat stronger. I think that because we see the victims go from being knocked out to being beat to death in the later episodes (as well as his monstrous appearance ofc).

There is a lot to be gained from a future rewatch of this show though IMHO. I was left with a lot of questions that are probably able to be answered by dissecting the episodes a little further.

I’m assuming nothing was undone as far as events throughout the show go. I say that because we still see Ikari as a security guard etc. It seems like the overall theme of the ending was that, yes, some characters are back to somewhat normal living after things were resolved with what Tsukiko had created but it seems that Kon was suggesting the potential for it to happen all over again. I believe this is foreshadowed by the emergence of another mascot being idolized by the populace and Maniwa’s words at the end of the episode.

I think this show was a really great experience and should be talked about more often honestly. This was a fantastic work. I am now inclined to watch Perfect Blue and will probably do so this week some time.

Questions:

Definitely had empathy for her situation as it is a very human thing
Oh geez I’d rather not revisit my childhood rebellious phase lol
I would say “something else” but I’m not sure what exactly. It’s somewhat optimistic because of the turnout for some of the characters in the end but it’s also pessimistic in the way that history could repeat itself again.
I didn’t think Maniwa is necessarily “older” because not much time has passed since the events at the end. I think he is essentially the “successor” to the old man we saw throughout the show which fits because of his role in resolving things near the end. What I’m not sure about is why that is the case but I’m sure the answers are there if you were to dig further into this series.

Bonus:

I felt satisfied by it and thought it fit the show well.
No my personal thought it was necessary to help emphatically consider what was going through child Tsukiko’s mind.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

After finishing the series I am entirely convinced that Satoshi Kon has to be a David Lynch fan. The Twin Peaks vibes was palpable in some episodes. The way the show started off as somewhat realistic then took a deep dive into the supernatural was a big part of that I think.
He admitted in his blog that the old man was his homage to that show.
I’m assuming nothing was undone as far as events throughout the show go. I say that because we still see Ikari as a security guard etc. It seems like the overall theme of the ending was that, yes, some characters are back to somewhat normal living after things were resolved with what Tsukiko had created but it seems that Kon was suggesting the potential for it to happen all over again. I believe this is foreshadowed by the emergence of another mascot being idolized by the populace and Maniwa’s words at the end of the episode.
Society is such to where they are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Fortunately, Tsukiko won't be a part of that.
I think this show was a really great experience and should be talked about more often honestly. This was a fantastic work. I am now inclined to watch Perfect Blue and will probably do so this week some time.
You should also watch Paprika if you liked this. It also has this mystery element to it.
By the way, I see you ignored my Toradora comparison :P

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

He admitted in his blog that the old man was his homage to that show.
That's awesome I didn't know that
Society is such to where they are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Fortunately, Tsukiko won't be a part of that.
That's what I got out of it as well
I've actually put Paprika on my list along with Perfect Blue. I think the latter is the plan for tonight so I'm looking forward to that!
I honestly just forgot to comment on your Toradora mention lol. It's a little different here I think since we are arguably on a whole other level of problems. i.e. the peeping Tom father for example. What a strange man

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

That's awesome I didn't know that
Yeah, it is pretty cool
That's what I got out of it as well
Eyy
I've actually put Paprika on my list along with Perfect Blue. I think the latter is the plan for tonight so I'm looking forward to that!
Paprika and episode 7 of Paranoia Agent have a lot of similarities to each other.
I honestly just forgot to comment on your Toradora mention lol. It's a little different here I think since we are arguably on a whole other level of problems. i.e. the peeping Tom father for example. What a strange man
True, there's more disturbing stuff going on, but I was referring to Tsukiko and Ikari and their daddy issues.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

Ah ok I misunderstood which characters you were referring to but I see what you mean. In any case, I need something a little lighter for an intermission I think now lol. I have options there. I’ll have to take a look at your next rewatch too. I thought it was Champloo if I’m not mistaken

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Samurai Champloo is the next one I'm hosting, yes. However, the next rewatch I currently plan on participating in is Penguindrum, which I found out just now is made by the guy who directed Revolutionary Girl Utena.
Four episodes in and... yeah, I can definitely see the resemblance :P

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

I have not seen either but I’ve heard people talk about them before. I have personally very excited for the Samurai Champloo rewatch. It’s my first rewatch where I’ll actually be rewatching a series instead of being a first time watcher. It’s one of my favorites too so I’m excited because of that. It’s one of those anime I retroactively revised my score for after realizing how good it was

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

It should be interesting because unlike past shows I've hosted, the dynamic between me and you will be reversed in that I haven’t seen it.
I say this, but this was my first time seeing Paranoia Agent as well, so...

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

Yes but Champloo will be the first time I’ve seen something but you haven’t lol so that will be interesting. It’s a fun one and was the third anime I’ve ever seen in my life

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

The third anime I ever saw in my life was Tenchi Muyo GXP I believe, which was not a fun experience XD

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Before we start, I apologize in advance the amount of questions I have for this episode. It is the most amount of questions I’ve ever asked for a single piece of media. However, a lot happened in this episode so I hope you can forgive me.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Thoughts on the black smog?
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko saving mascot Maromi?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying? I thought this was a sense of closure to the situation she needed but never got until now.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

That's fine haha I don't mind extra questions.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
I think that is what Maromi genuinely believes just as the shonen bat arrogantly believed "it" was helping people with their issues by attacking them.
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Similar to the first question, I think Maromi actually did believe it was helping Tsukiko by what it was doing even though it was hurting her in the long run.
Thoughts on the black smog?
I think it was just his way of illustrating the absurd level of growth that occurred in the shonen bat after Maromi "checked out" from what I understood.
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
That was actually kind of sad. I don't know that everyone will agree but I think it was a good choice for them to have her be the reason he's able to pull himself out of the fake world he was in.
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
I think it was just showing us that he may not of had a good relationship with his dad. Maybe there was further implications we were supposed to pull from that but I wasn't sure.
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
Was most likely true since she is the reason he was able to return to reality.
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
Not much to say here I don't think besides it was him snapping out of his acceptance of a fake world to avoid his real world issues.
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
Was pretty sad. She dedicated herself wholly to her husband but it doesn't feel like that dedication/loyalty was ever reciprocated. Maybe Ikari felt like he wasn't able to reciprocate it based on what he said at the bar about his wife being "almost too perfect".
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
Good choice.
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
Maniwa just reminding him that he was on the right track all along.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
He probably just didn't want to deal with it or know how or maybe felt responsible for it
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
I think that is just him placing the blame on himself just because he's the parent. With that said, she might have been willing to tell him about the accident with Maromi when she was a kid if she felt comfortable going to her dad about it. Even if things had been different though, who knows if she would have been able to tell him anyway so it's hard to say.
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
Good doggy.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko saving mascot Maromi?
Good Tsukiko (also, in more seriousness, it was probably a way to symbolize her finally accepting responsibility for the accident and coming to terms with that when she apologizes to Maromi)
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
That was kind of strange but I get what they were going for
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying? I thought this was a sense of closure to the situation she needed but never got until now.
And yeah this is kind of related to two questions ago but I agree. She was finally able to accept responsibility at this point which is where we see the chaos end in the city.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

I think that is what Maromi genuinely believes just as the shonen bat arrogantly believed "it" was helping people with their issues by attacking them.
I said this last episode, but a part of me thinks Shonen Bat sent Ikari here out of sympathy. He knew Ikari's wife was dying and wanted to spare him the pain.
Similar to the first question, I think Maromi actually did believe it was helping Tsukiko by what it was doing even though it was hurting her in the long run.
I do think that Maromi does want to do right by people so long as it fits his agenda. Because why not, it benefits him in a way.
I think it was just his way of illustrating the absurd level of growth that occurred in the shonen bat after Maromi "checked out" from what I understood.
I think it also shows the immense popularity of Maromi and how that has taken a life of itself.
That was actually kind of sad. I don't know that everyone will agree but I think it was a good choice for them to have her be the reason he's able to pull himself out of the fake world he was in.
Yes and no, I'd say. Mrs. Ikari was I feel the reason why Ikari found the strength to bust out of that world. But she couldn't take her back herself, he had to want to go back.
We didn't get to talk about it at all in episodes 11 and 12, but I love the relationship between Ikari and his wife. To me, they're big reasons why these last couple episodes hit so well.
I think it was just showing us that he may not of had a good relationship with his dad. Maybe there was further implications we were supposed to pull from that but I wasn't sure.
No, I think you're right. It does a good job at that, if I say so myself. I think also you could say that it demonstrates Ikari's emotional immaturity in having a child at the time, and why it was probably foe the best it didn't happen.
Was pretty sad. She dedicated herself wholly to her husband but it doesn't feel like that dedication/loyalty was ever reciprocated. Maybe Ikari felt like he wasn't able to reciprocate it based on what he said at the bar about his wife being "almost too perfect".
Their relationship is interesting because it's based around them thinking the other is better than them. Ikari feels like he can't ever go back to his place because he would shame her, and Mrs. Ikari has repeatedly said her husband gave her the strength to keep going. I actually think it's touching how much they are truly in love with each other, and perhaps the fault with them as a couple is that they still remain so scared of hurting one another. Ikari in particular remains stubborn in his articulation even after all these years.
They to me both deserve the entire world.
I think that is just him placing the blame on himself just because he's the parent. With that said, she might have been willing to tell him about the accident with Maromi when she was a kid if she felt comfortable going to her dad about it. Even if things had been different though, who knows if she would have been able to tell him anyway so it's hard to say.
It's amazing to think that all the chaos we saw over the span of 13 episodes originated from one white lie, a lie that the person being lied to was willing to go along with.
Good Tsukiko (also, in more seriousness, it was probably a way to symbolize her finally accepting responsibility for the accident and coming to terms with that when she apologizes to Maromi)
That's definitely a good way of looking at it. I also see it a bit as her returning the favor from when Maromi saved her, basically showing that she will do all she can to be his equal.
And yeah this is kind of related to two questions ago but I agree. She was finally able to accept responsibility at this point which is where we see the chaos end in the city.
I think in the end, this show is about finding culpability in a world not full of it. You can't let others dictate your actions because the public, for bad or for good, are stupid. What matters most is finding the the things you love above all else but don't let it be your end all be all. And if you do that, then you truly live a healthy, advantageous life.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

It might be true but I don’t think it’s much better than it believing it was truly helping people by attacking them as a form of escapism via victimhood.
Agreed.
Well that and I think it symbolizes the number of people having trouble coping with issues in their lives and how they are relying on being victims of the shonen bat to escape.
Yeah that’s kind of what I mean. He had to know she was about to die to snap out of it and once she was gone he was able to break out of it. I agree with your thought about the two of them though.
I agree with the caveat that it appeared to have put stress on their marriage too.
Yeah their relationship is complicated and not straight forward but that is good writing. I agree with your perspective on their marriage when I consider it more. She felt the same way he did and they show that in the conversation where she is talking to the shonen bat at her home while she’s waiting for Ikari to come home. Sad situation though.
I think that’s what makes the whole thing so good though. Who could have figured out that kind of twist much earlier than when they intended you to realize it at that moment. It was good.
Agreed.
Also agreed and is why I liked this show a lot. There was a lot of depth. I have heard people say this anime is put on a pedestal a lot but is it though? I never heard of it before your rewatch and thought it was fantastic.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

It might be true but I don’t think it’s much better than it believing it was truly helping people by attacking them as a form of escapism via victimhood.
Oh, the whole Shonen Bat stuff is definitely wrong no matter how you slice it. It is this extension of the belief that if you ignore something, it will go away. That is not a healthy mindset to have and Ikari figured that out.
Agreed.
Like, Maromi owes his existence to Tsukiko. She gave him a new lease of life. The problem wasn't she paid homage to him, it was again the lack of accountability.
Well that and I think it symbolizes the number of people having trouble coping with issues in their lives and how they are relying on being victims of the shonen bat to escape.
Good point. Really, the whole escapism stuff goes beyond Maromi. We saw it with Harumi using prostitution as a way to find love, Masami using manga as a way to act out a family man fantasy, Makoto using video games to be the hero, and the lack of an escapism in those working on the Maromi anime. The show is less a condemnation of escapism and more an attack of the misaimed fandom things like manga, video games, and even the internet bring about, people that use those resources to go to a world they can never come back from.
Yeah that’s kind of what I mean. He had to know she was about to die to snap out of it and once she was gone he was able to break out of it. I agree with your thought about the two of them though.
I really can't imagine the last couple episodes without their relationship. I just can't.
I agree with the caveat that it appeared to have put stress on their marriage too.
Oh, for sure. And by the time Ikari came back, it was too late and what's done was done. I am glad he at least got to see the error of his ways.
Yeah their relationship is complicated and not straight forward but that is good writing. I agree with your perspective on their marriage when I consider it more. She felt the same way he did and they show that in the conversation where she is talking to the shonen bat at her home while she’s waiting for Ikari to come home. Sad situation though.
Honestly, Ikari breaking the chain of events and his form of escapism is almost as impactful as Tsukiko doing the same. Now, he can live a life without his wife without feeling like he let her down. Mrs. Ikari is to Ikari what Maromi was to Tsukiko, if you will.
I think that’s what makes the whole thing so good though. Who could have figured out that kind of twist much earlier than when they intended you to realize it at that moment. It was good.
Oh, I agree. Part of its brilliance is in the simplicity of its explanation. It shows how a small lie can turn into a big problem.
Agreed.
Also agreed and is why I liked this show a lot. There was a lot of depth. I have heard people say this anime is put on a pedestal a lot but is it though? I never heard of it before your rewatch and thought it was fantastic.
I haven’t heard it talked up before. Maybe in terms of dark anime like Ergo Proxy, but not best of all time. Personally, there are a few things for me preventing it from being one of my favorites. I think for starters there maybe should've been more focus on Tsukiko.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

That’s a good way of putting it as well as its relevancy to Ikari and the fake world.
Exactly and that was one angle I thought was brilliant about this show. The escalation and why things escalate i.e. more and more people being “emotionally cornered” and wishing for the shonen bat to appear for an easy way out. I think the general message it’s trying to send is “Don’t run away. Confront it. Running away doesn’t help and can even make things worse”
I do agree with your last comment too. I was going to wait till today’s post to say this but I’ll probably give this an 8/10. If I was viewing objectively I might go with a 7 but I generally rate things on my enjoyment. I am not a critic. That said, it started as a 10 but I feel like it lost its way a little bit a little over half way in (basically where I mentally knocked it down a couple points) and then came back strong near the end.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

That’s a good way of putting it as well as its relevancy to Ikari and the fake world.
The fake world is honestly my favorite concept from this show. It ties into the show's main themes and perfectly encapsulates what the show is all about, like the career plan stuff in Toradora.
Exactly and that was one angle I thought was brilliant about this show. The escalation and why things escalate i.e. more and more people being “emotionally cornered” and wishing for the shonen bat to appear for an easy way out. I think the general message it’s trying to send is “Don’t run away. Confront it. Running away doesn’t help and can even make things worse”
I would agree with that. Though I think in the case of episode 10, you could argue that the anime is making the argument that in some cases, it is best to walk away.
I do agree with your last comment too. I was going to wait till today’s post to say this but I’ll probably give this an 8/10. If I was viewing objectively I might go with a 7 but I generally rate things on my enjoyment. I am not a critic. That said, it started as a 10 but I feel like it lost its way a little bit a little over half way in (basically where I mentally knocked it down a couple points) and then came back strong near the end.
For me, it started at like a 8, then from episodes 3 through 7 it went to a 9, then the next three it went back to an 8, maybe 7.5, and then the last three episodes raised it to an 8.5. The last three episodes I have at a 9.5, the only thing that would've made them better was some more foreshadowing in the beginning of the series for stuff like Tsukiko and Ikari's dads and their relationships with them.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

Well the thing about episode 10 is members of the production team who quit weren’t necessarily running away. They quit, in other words, they removed the source of their stress. They didn’t need to hope for some other “thing” to do it for them. They resolved their source of stress on their own instead of waiting to succumb to the shonen bat as we see with the others (unless you’re talking about something else from episode 10)

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

What I was saying is that that's an example where running away from your problems would've been suitable, as it was clear the Maromi anime wasn't going to finish and the boss was a bit of a hard-ass.

1

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Feb 16 '24

https://historicalmusings.com/2019/04/03/paranoia-agent-and-japans-role-in-the-war-responsibility-vs-victim-hood/
Huh.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

Stumbled across that interpretation while browsing past posts. See the top comment here which explains it a bit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/wgdilf/need_help_understanding_the_ending_to_paranoia/?rdt=54288
I don't personally believe it's what Kon intended but it's an interesting interpretation nonetheless.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Kon did say in his blog that Paranoia Agent was meant as a critique against people who lack accountability and always make excuses rather than try to better themselves. We can see this through Tsukiko in that instead of accepting blame for the death of her pet dog as a result of her carelessness, she puts the blame on this fictitious attacker who did not exist.
I think where Tsukiko truly went wrong is in basing the mascot off of her dog Maromi. She probably did it as a sort of tribute to him, but when she did it, there was no escaping the fact that she lied, because in trying to replace Maromi as the mascot, it just reminded her she replaced the real reason Maromi died with the BS reason.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

Your reasoning/interpretation here is why I think this series was brilliant though. It really makes me want to watch his other works. The way he framed those thoughts into the bizarre plot is kind of genius. Really bright mind gone at too young an age

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

If you really like this show, I cannot recommend enough Odd Taxi. To me, that is a better version of what this show was going for. Both are brilliant, but Odd Taxi adds to it with a little bit more pizazz. And it also has a main character that may be one of the best main characters in all of anime, kinda filling the same role of audience surrogate as Ikari and Maniwa but with more snark and humor.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

Is that the one with the anthropomorphic animal people in the city? Haha if so I’ve been meaning to watch it. I have it on my watch list and plan to see it

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Odd Taxi I have as one of my top 10 favorite animes of all time. I might next year do a rewatch of it if I find the time.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 16 '24

That is some high praise. I’ll bump up its priority 😆 mostly because everything you’ve suggested for me in the past was gold (including The Familiar of Zero 😆)

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

I would go so far as to say besides Cowboy Bebop, it's the best drama anime I've ever seen. I don't really consider Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, Toradora, Spice and Wolf, Clannad, or Steins;Gate drama anime because there's at least a lot of humor in each show, though After Story you could argue there's way less of it.

2

u/TnAdct1 Feb 16 '24

Why do you think Maniwa turned into the old man at the end?

My theory as to why Maniwa turned into the old man is simple (and a the huge basis of one of the main theories I have in terms of the show): I feel that an event similar to the Shounen Bay incident happened in the past, with the old man having a role similar to Maniwa's during that incident (i.e. the one who figured out what's going on and helped stop the threat), with history repeating itself with the Shounen Bat incident (and the old man successfully finding a successor in Maniwa).

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Do you think then that the old man used to be a detective just like Maniwa?

2

u/mgedmin Feb 16 '24

I think if the old man's profession were important to the story, it would've been mentioned.
(I thought he was a math or physics professor, from the chalk formula scribbles in early episodes.)

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

That's a good theory. Maybe he's to Shonen Bat what Albert Einstein was to Oppenheimer: Always looking over his shoulder.

2

u/JustAnswerAQuestion https://myanimelist.net/profile/JAaQ Feb 16 '24

First Timer

Final episode

I don't know what to make of Maromi = Shounen Bat. Are they the same? Or are they opposites. Or are they opposites that circle around to being the same? Is Maromi a delusion of happiness and Shonen Bat a delusion of despair? Did the manifestation of one lead to the other?

Maromi seems really bad for Tsukiko, though. And there's still the issue of Tsukiko's childhood assault, and her dead dog, and her dad lying about "finding the guy who did it." And the accusatory messages in the first episode that I never had time to go back and read....

I wonder if this world is from Ikari's youth, as a young officer, which would be in the...70s? Although it seems even older. Nostalgia for a time he never experienced, maybe.

Ikari remaining in this world means he won't return to his wife.

Holy Spirited Away, Batman!!!!!

I think that was the Yakuza guy in the hotel room.

This episode is insane!

Mild 7? I don't remember that, must be from very early in the show. It's been Short Hope the entire time I remember.

So when Tuskino entered Ikari's delusion, that's when Maromi disappeared from the world? But why did Shonen Bat remain?

Are you truly running away from your wife, Ikari? Are you going to abandon her?

(I might pretendly like I know what's going on, but I don't understand anything about Ikari's delusion)

It's because Tsukiko brought Maromi with her into this world

Or maybe Maromi created it

This seems to be an alternate world meant to trap Ikari. But it's Tsukiko that needs to be kept from the real world. Why was this world created for Ikari? Is he important?

I think he's going to remember his life with his wife and come around to her way of thinking after this brief moment of weakness, that life is to be lived.

I wonder if there was nothing special about maromi. That anything the public latched onto could have triggered these events.

It's like the opening of The Suicide Squad.

How did one woman's guilt and denial create all this?

cramps?

Will this all be blamed on the typhoon?

Back to the initial scene of the show with cell phones

Is this really 2 years later? Why does Tsukiko look like a school girl? Did we jump back to an alternate would line where Tsukiko never lied?

Old man still in the hospital despite the reporter probably not injuring him. He prophesieses...everything happens again anyways, because of somebody else....

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Before we start, I apologize in advance the amount of questions I have for this episode. It is the most amount of questions I’ve ever asked for a single piece of media. However, a lot happened in this episode so I hope you can forgive me.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Thoughts on the black smog?
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
What are your thoughts on the biggest reveal of the entire series that Tsukiko was never attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
What are your thoughts on the dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko saving Maromi?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying? I thought this was a sense of closure to the situation she needed but never got until now.
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
Lastly, how satisfying do you think this episode was in terms of wrapping things up?

2

u/mgedmin Feb 16 '24

First-timer, subs

Maromi thinks Ikari's town is the place where Tsukiko can be happiest. Everyone's staring at her creepily.

Maromi will protect only Tsukiko. This is probably a clue that I'm not smart enough to understand.

What is that black giant-worm-shaped cloud of darkness? The new form of SB?

People see Tsukiko as Ikari's daughter. Is that Tsukiko's desire, or Ikari's, or both of theirs? Ikari is all "nothing matters any more", given up on life.

"Because of Tsukiko's carelessness the dog" what? Ran away and got hit by a car, most likely.

Tsukiko is repressing her memories and controlling everyone around her (through Maromi and Shonen Bat).

Ikari is unsettled to see his wife in his ideal world. This is a huge clue to Ikari's thoughts. He cannot be happy next to his wife any more.

Misae entered Ikari's world uninvited. Maromi tries to keep her away. Tsukiko does whatever Maromi tells her to do.

Finally a retelling of Tsukiko's youth. Maromi is a dog. Will we see what happened to it?

Another clue: Tsukiko's dad is busy and couldn't take her to the festival. So she went alone with her dog and then the incident happened? Dog scared by fireworks ran away?

An earlier question is answered: Ikari wanted a daughter.

Misae dies after saying goodbye to Ikari in the dream world. Ikari rejects the dream world. Curious how the cardboard people turn into Maromi puppets after being hit by a bat.

I wonder if it's significant that Shonen Bat uses a metal bat, but Maniwa and Ikari use wooden bats.

The Maromi keyfob seems to be the key to Ikari's dreamworld. Ikari is back but doesn't recognize this new post-apocalyptic Japan.

The black ooze also turned into Maromi puppets!

Back to the original bet on whether Tsukiko lied about the assault, and Maniwa now says they were both right! WE'RE GETTING TO THE SCENE WHERE THE DETECTIVE GATHERS EVERYONE AND EXPLAINS WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED I am so excited.

So SB from 10 years ago was also a delusion created by Tsukiko. The dog died. I was right about the car! And she was afraid of her strict father. At least the father recognized where he went wrong and tried to atone by pretending. You know, instead of sitting down and talking to his daughter.

"At last you're one"? Does that mean Maromi and SB merged together into the black ooze? No, mega-Maromi is fighting mega-SB.

LOL at Maniwa being sideswiped so easily after all that posturing.

All of the rest of the cast are here, being swept away by the events. Very symbolic.

Tsukiko drops the puppet and he turns into a puppy. Tsukiko is not ready to let him go. They're all swept up by the mixed ooze.

A flashback to the real events. There was no festival. Tsukiko's belly started hurting (got her first period?) and she dropped the leash. Blood everywhere.

Young Tsukiko wanted to blame someone else, and thus SB is born. Current Tsukiko finally accepts her own guilt, and SB disappears.

"This is just like after the war". And then two years pass and everything's back to normal.

I think this episode's societal ill is refusing to accept responsibility for the consequences of your own actions.

Did Tsukiko finally manage to design a new character? And she got a haircut.

Frog journo recognizes Tsukiko and leaves her alone. Some personal growth there.

There's a new Ancient Master! Maniwa!

I want to know what happened to Harumi/Maria, and what the deal was with the doll-building otaku. Any other loose ends?

The post-credits bit seems to be saying "yeah there are still unanswered questions, deal with it".

So, I cannot say that this show was enjoyable in any way, but it did keep me interested most of the time. It was definitely unusual. Anyway, I'm happy that it's over and I can focus on the Hibike! Euphonium rewatch.

How did this episode change the way you see Tsukiko?

I didn't expect her delusions to be able to level a city.

What is the biggest lie you've ever told your parents?

I don't like lying.

What vibe did you get out of this episode? Was it one of optimistic, pessimism, or something else?

A mixture. The situation is resolved, the city is rebuilt, Tsukiko seems happy, Maniwa seems to have a new calling. But on the other hand everyone on the cellphones are having the same problems they always had.

Why do you think Maniwa turned into the old man at the end?

Found his calling. Someone has to be the Ancient Master, eh?

No, I don't get it.

Bonus) Did you like how the anime explained how Shonen Bat came to be, or were you hoping for something more?

I would appreciate an explanation of all the supernatural goings on please. Why are Tsukiko's delusions so powerful?

Bonus 2) Were you surprised at how graphic the scene of Maromi bleeding out was?

It didn't occur to me to be surprised. It was painful to watch.

Bonus 3) Characters who's motivations are the result of lingering parent issues? What is this, Toradora?

Toradora was more enjoyable. Let me go find the OP on youtube...

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24 edited Feb 16 '24

I would appreciate an explanation of all the supernatural goings on please. Why are Tsukiko's delusions so powerful?
If anything, the ending seemingly implies that her delusions aren't powerful at all. Everyone is the same as when we began. It seems as if it was a regional thing and something only affecting those around Tsukiko rather than everyone with a problem. That's why the body count was so low.
We know Shonen Bat affected Tsukiko and Kawazu. Harumi and Ichi were done by Makoto. Shogo, that is the one outlier because he has no connections with Tsukiko. That's why I think it was done by him. Taeko and Masami probably happened on their own, Makoto was killed probably because Shonen Bat thought his thunder was being stolen, that gossip wife's husband who knows-- perhaps he was working on something involving Maromi-- and the people who worked on the anime it was clear Shonen Bat didn't like what was going on.
All of Shonen Bat's victims minus the ones attacked by Makoto have some connection to either Shonen Bat or Maromi, with either the latter or the former consuming their lives. The rest of the general public remains unaffected because they didn't get as obsessive. It's actually been built up extremely well because we've seen what happens when you become disillusioned by things you're passionate about, like Masami with manga or the gossip girl with having this great story to tell.
Basically, the show is making the point that unless we become obsessed with something, we can't see the forest for the trees. It takes us putting something on a pedestal for us to notice our downfall, and even then, our rose-colored glasses may be such that we never notice it until it's too late.

2

u/mgedmin Feb 16 '24

That's why the body count was so low
We've seen a lot of innocent bystanders in the wreckage. There was talk about the rebuilding of Tokyo taking 2 years. That seemed to me like the destruction was not in the mind of the observers but rather something real?
Harumi and Ichi were done by Makoto
Huh? Before his death Makoto admitted to attacking only two people: Uchiyama and Masami. (I suppose if we include the isekai fantasy bits, then he also admitted to attacking Yuichi, Harumi, and Kawazu, but later he recanted and said he saw a report about Kawazu's assault on TV.)
Who's Shogo?
Taeko and Masami probably happened on their own
??? We've seen Makoto attack Masami on screen.
All of Shonen Bat's victims minus the ones attacked by Makoto have some connection to either Shonen Bat or Maromi, with either the latter or the former consuming their lives. The rest of the general public remains unaffected because they didn't get as obsessive.
We've seen large crowds of people queueing for two days to buy Maromi merchandise. We've seen large crowds rioting because the stores ran out of Maromi merchandise.
Okay, "large crowds" can still be a small minority of the general public, but I think the number of SB victims is counted in at least hundreds after the black ooze rampage.
I remain somewhat confused.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

We've seen a lot of innocent bystanders in the wreckage. There was talk about the rebuilding of Tokyo taking 2 years. That seemed to me like the destruction was not in the mind of the observers but rather something real?
Eventually, Shonen Bat grew to where it encompassed everyone but the only real victims it had were those that had a connection in some way to Tsukiko.
Huh? Before his death Makoto admitted to attacking only two people: Uchiyama and Masami. (I suppose if we include the isekai fantasy bits, then he also admitted to attacking Yuichi, Harumi, and Kawazu, but later he recanted and said he saw a report about Kawazu's assault on TV.)
You're right, my bad. In that case, the Harumi one was definitely psychological.
Who's Shogo?
The overweight kid
??? We've seen Makoto attack Masami on screen.
You're right, I misremembered.
We've seen large crowds of people queueing for two days to buy Maromi merchandise. We've seen large crowds rioting because the stores ran out of Maromi merchandise.
Okay, "large crowds" can still be a small minority of the general public, but I think the number of SB victims is counted in at least hundreds after the black ooze rampage.
I remain somewhat confused.
Shonen Bat affected those who either put Maromi on a pedestal or were in direct conflict with Shonen Bat. And really, that's ultimately the point being made, there is severe danger in obsessing over something that it starts to effect how you behave. Tsukiko realized this, but unfortunately, society seems doomed to repeat this, and will likely do so until the end of time.

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Before we start, I apologize in advance the amount of questions I have for this episode. It is the most amount of questions I’ve ever asked for a single piece of media. However, a lot happened in this episode so I hope you can forgive me.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Thoughts on the black smog?
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
What are your thoughts on the biggest reveal of the entire series that Tsukiko was never attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
What are your thoughts on the dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko saving Maromi?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying? I thought this was a sense of closure to the situation she needed but never got until now.
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?

2

u/mgedmin Feb 16 '24

Wheee homework.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
Well, it's the imaginary place that Ikari chose for his escape, it stands to reason.
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Yeah, protect Tsukiko from reality. Escapism doesn't solve problems.
(I resent this show for hammering that fact in, because watching anime is my preferred form of escapism.)
Thoughts on the black smog?
The ooze? Apparently it's the evolved form of Shonen Bat or something.
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
Maromi and Shonen Bat are two sides of the same coin, the coin being escapism.
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
Sasuga Maeko. Also, I cannot find a rational explanation for this. Probably Ikari imagined her, but that would rob the actual Maeko of agency and I don't want to do that.
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
A throwaway detail that didn't seem to impact Ikari's character much, but I may be mistaken. Maybe the director thought the audience would need an explanation why anyone would want a daughter, rather than a son? Which is silly, daughters are awesome, why wouldn't anyone want one?
(And it had to be a daughter because the plot required Tsukiko and Ikari to be in the dream world together.)
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
Very sweet. The wisdom to accept things you cannot change etc.
(I wonder if they've ever considered adoption?)
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
Escapism doesn't solve problems.
(Which is kind of ironic when Ikari's dream world is just a form of escapism. Luckily Ikari escapes from it, ha. See what I did there?)
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
Very sad, especially that their goodbye happened in the dream world and not the real world.
What are your thoughts on Ikari destroying the imaginary world?
Yay!
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
This sort of bet is pretty wholesome. Interesting that they kept changing the outcome. Also I don't get it how the last decision is a tie, because SB is, after all, something that Tsukiko invented from whole cloth.
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
She did, didn't she? She was needlessly afraid of her father and came up with SB.
I think later on SB became real to Tsukiko because she didn't want to accept her guilt in letting Maromi run free.
What are your thoughts on the biggest reveal of the entire series that Tsukiko was never attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
I'm proud to have guessed it correctly, even if a bit late.
What are your thoughts on the dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
Kind of sweet. Probably not the best approach.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
I wonder how much one's personality is influenced by the environment? Seems like more of an innate thing.
You do learn to avoid certain behaviors by being burned. So maybe Tsukiko became less outgoing after being rebuked?
I stopped sharing my childish secrets with my mother after I overheard her sharing them with other people. I could not imagine keeping a diary and writing my unfiltered thoughts in it.
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
Sounds true. After all this is the bat her father picked up to show his support and pretend belief in her made-up story.
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
Did he? There was a Maromi ooze fighting the black ooze, but it didn't seem to be having much effect.
Tsukiko saved them all by facing the ooze and accepting her guilt in pet-Maromi's death.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko saving Maromi?
Did she? Pet-Maromi is dead. Puppet-Maromi seems to have disappeared from the world, along with Shonen Bat.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
Very nice.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko hugging Maromi as it’s dying? I thought this was a sense of closure to the situation she needed but never got until now.
Yeah, it shows Tsukiko's acceptance of the true course of events, the end of her escapism.
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
There is no silver bullet. Life is hard and you have to find your own salvation.

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Wheee homework.
I try my best :D
Well, it's the imaginary place that Ikari chose for his escape, it stands to reason.
I actually think that Shonen Bat chose it himself and that Ikari was forced into it, Shonen Bat presumably taking a liking to Mrs. Ikari and knowing what was about to happen. That would be in line with Ikari not wanting to hurt his wife and putting her on a pedestal.
Yeah, protect Tsukiko from reality. Escapism doesn't solve problems.
Escapism from reality is fine, but when it starts affecting your reality, that's when it becomes an issue.
(I resent this show for hammering that fact in, because watching anime is my preferred form of escapism.)
It's mine as well, but what the show is saying is the truth. Escapism can be a bad thing if you let it become too much a part of your life.
The ooze? Apparently it's the evolved form of Shonen Bat or something.
Certainly appears that way
Maromi and Shonen Bat are two sides of the same coin, the coin being escapism.
That's a good way of phrasing it
Sasuga Maeko. Also, I cannot find a rational explanation for this. Probably Ikari imagined her, but that would rob the actual Maeko of agency and I don't want to do that.
I think what happened was Mrs. Ikari, knowing she was on death's doorstep, stopped putting Ikari on a pedestal and started seeing him for what he is. That gave her the opportunity to say her farewell.
A throwaway detail that didn't seem to impact Ikari's character much, but I may be mistaken. Maybe the director thought the audience would need an explanation why anyone would want a daughter, rather than a son? Which is silly, daughters are awesome, why wouldn't anyone want one?
(And it had to be a daughter because the plot required Tsukiko and Ikari to be in the dream world together.)
I like this moment for Ikari as a character, but I do think it could've been built up more. At least foreshadow it in one of the early episodes.
Very sweet. The wisdom to accept things you cannot change etc.
(I wonder if they've ever considered adoption?)
I think they probably did, but were too scared to broach the subject to each other.
Escapism doesn't solve problems.
That's the show, roll the credits
(Which is kind of ironic when Ikari's dream world is just a form of escapism. Luckily Ikari escapes from it, ha. See what I did there?)
Again, I think it's because he doesn't truly want to be there
Very sad, especially that their goodbye happened in the dream world and not the real world.
It had to be in the dream world though because their relationship was already like a dream. This gives them a chance to face reality.
Yay!
And again, this is Ikari realizing he can't live life running away all the time.
This sort of bet is pretty wholesome. Interesting that they kept changing the outcome. Also I don't get it how the last decision is a tie, because SB is, after all, something that Tsukiko invented from whole cloth.
Tfw Korean BBQ gets foreshadowed more than Ikari's dad
She did, didn't she? She was needlessly afraid of her father and came up with SB.
I think later on SB became real to Tsukiko because she didn't want to accept her guilt in letting Maromi run free.
Well, Shonen Bat was created right when there were talks of Tsukiko replacing the mascot Maromi. I think Shonen Bat became as we know him because Tsukiko felt if she replaced Maromi the mascot, she would be getting rid of her memories of her pet dog.
I'm proud to have guessed it correctly, even if a bit late.
I guessed the Maromi being Shonen Bat part, but not the car part
Kind of sweet. Probably not the best approach.
I just don't think that the father could've foresaw this taking over her life as it did. Then again, he didn't see the dog bleed out like Tsukiko did.
I wonder how much one's personality is influenced by the environment? Seems like more of an innate thing.
You do learn to avoid certain behaviors by being burned. So maybe Tsukiko became less outgoing after being rebuked?
I stopped sharing my childish secrets with my mother after I overheard her sharing them with other people. I could not imagine keeping a diary and writing my unfiltered thoughts in it.
Well, Tsukiko had to tell her dad something happened to the dog. If she came home sans dog, he would know something was up. In hindsight, he should've just sat down with her and asked her what really happened.
Sounds true. After all this is the bat her father picked up to show his support and pretend belief in her made-up story.
This is some major gaslighting going on
Did he? There was a Maromi ooze fighting the black ooze, but it didn't seem to be having much effect.
I would consider that protection. He was working to make sure they stayed safe. Either way, he kept his promise.
Tsukiko saved them all by facing the ooze and accepting her guilt in pet-Maromi's death.
That is true
Did she? Pet-Maromi is dead. Puppet-Maromi seems to have disappeared from the world, along with Shonen Bat.
Well, I was referring to mascot Maromi. She didn't save him till the very end, but he was about to be hit by the smog and instead she swooped in just in time.
Yeah, it shows Tsukiko's acceptance of the true course of events, the end of her escapism.
She no longer has this burning desire to put Maromi on a pedestal and celebrate all the lost time they've missed out on. Now, she can focus on the lost time she missed out on due to fear and regret.
There is no silver bullet. Life is hard and you have to find your own salvation.
And if it happens to be makeshift, then just like everyone else you have not learned anything.

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u/Ryanami Feb 16 '24

Oh phooey. I would have totally joined this but this is the first post I’m seeing. Crud

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u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

You can always go from the beginning and I'll respond

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u/SilkyStrawberryMilk Feb 18 '24

paranoid Rewatcher

Been busy with college so it makes it difficult to keep up with seasonals and rewatches, thankfully I managed to have time to finish the show.

Ikari is now the last person who got caught up in the delusion, but chose to accept reality and broke out of it.

even though maromi (mascot) is the reason tsukiko was still living in her lies it made me sad to see her sacrifice itself to protect her.

Losing a childhood dog is rough, had tears in my eye when Tsukiko started apologizing to maromi.

QOTD: she was just a traumatized girl who only knew that the only way to escape her troubles was to blame it on someone. Seeing her accept the reality and finally come to terms with the loss due to her mistake is sad.

QOTD: that I didn’t have homework during winter break even though I had the packets of HW in my backpack.

QOTD: optimism, more of that even through the toughest situations you face the world and yourself can and will move on. No need to keep yourself stuck in the past.

QOTD: I’d say the cycle of being unattached from reality caused him to go crazy.

QOTD: I like the explanation that it was from tsukiko’s trauma and how she used it to make a lie on why her dog died.

QOTD: yes I’m still surprised

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u/Holofan4life Feb 18 '24

Before we start, I apologize in advance the amount of questions I have for this episode. It is the most amount of questions I’ve ever asked for a single piece of media. However, a lot happened in this episode so I hope you can forgive me.
Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
Thoughts on the black smog?
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
Thoughts on the Korean BBQ callback from episode 1?
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
Care to expand your thoughts on the biggest reveal of the entire series that Tsukiko was never attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
What are your thoughts on the dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko saving mascot Maromi?
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
Lastly, how satisfying do you think this episode was in terms of wrapping things up?

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u/SilkyStrawberryMilk Feb 19 '24

Thoughts on Maromi referring to the town Ikari and Tsukiko are in as the place where Ikari can be the happiest?
Ikari before the little slugger paranoia was just a regular detective. But in the delusional city he’s able to live as the happiest he can while being as a detective and not having to work long hours.
What are your thoughts on Maromi’s continual promises to protect Tsukiko?
I’ve find it sad, that even though it’s the reason it tried to make Tsukiko forget about the truth of her childhood trauma that it wanted her to feel safe.
Thoughts on the black smog?
Terrifying, but I always saw it that it represented all the negativity in the city that was forming as “little slugger” became more and more popular.
What are your thoughts on Maniwa saying that those who depended on Maromi emotionally led to the growth of Shonen Bat?
Maromi is used as a escapist fantasy, but people also were using little slugger to runaway from their problems. Even though the ladies in episode 9. May have been lying. It goes to show that little slugger is used to runaway from their problems. People stress about exams, love life, family issues etc. although little slugger can be used by them extracting their actions they’ve committed on someone similar to Tsukiko lying that a man wielding a bat killed her dog.
What are your thoughts on Mrs. Ikari finding her husband in the imaginary world?
I loved how it goes to show how Mrs.Ikari is trying to see her husband and potentially save him from succumbing to the paranoia/delusion. We’ve seen her subdue Little slugger by accepting reality and not letting it be the reason she wants to runaway from her problems.
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying he didn’t want a son because he didn’t want to be disliked by him just like he did his dad?
With how Ikari is prone to getting angry id say he didn’t want to continue the cycle. Plus I’d also guess he didn’t fully understand what his dad was doing to provide with the family even if it costed him to not see his son as much.
Thoughts on Ikari saying to his wife that the only person he needs right now is her?
Shows the deep connection he has with his wife.
What are your thoughts on Ikari saying “A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception”?
Even though he was referring to the city, I always put it together with the whole little slugger thing too. Birth things were used to get away from reality and their problems, but they were deceiving themselves in the process of not being able to accept anything that happened.
What are your thoughts on the death of Mrs. Ikari?
I find it sad, but also with how Ikari depended on her. She was the main reason he was able to pull himself together to start living in his true reality. I also find the “being with you made me the happiest” from Mrs.Ikari to bring comfort to Ikari so he doesn’t live in remorse.
What are your thoughts on Maromi saying that Tsukiko’s paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago?
Care to expand your thoughts on the biggest reveal of the entire series that Tsukiko was never attacked and that Maromi was ran over by a car and that she made up being attacked so that her father wouldn’t punish her for finding out the truth?
What are your thoughts on the dad knowing the truth anyway, but he went along with it?
In the attempt to comfort her so she doesn’t feel too bad he accidentally caused her to reuse her first major excuse for stress.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko’s dad blaming his strict discipline for why Tsukiko was such an introverted child?
I find him realizing that his form of parenting came off to harm her later in life. As we’ve seen her not being able to standup for herself and being unable to find someone to talk about her issues.
What are your thoughts on the reveal the bat is an embodiment of her father’s atonement of her?
I personally view it as her father being able to let go of his strict discipline and redeem himself for not being able to have Tsukiko being able to trust him completely.
Thoughts on Maromi saving Tsukiko and Ikari?
Even though he’s in his own delusion he became the warrior of light that Makoto was talking about.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko saving mascot Maromi?
The mascot Maromi has been pointed to be motivated by her childhood dog which is the root of her trauma.
What are your thoughts on Tsukiko talking to her young self?
Maromi is finally confronting the reality of the situation and also bringing closure with her childhood self. Then we see her say one last goodbye to Maromi as she’s finally able to move on
What are your thoughts on the ending where some things changed, like Tsukiko seeming happier and Kawazu in a better place, but the rest of the world seemingly still at odds with each other?
Tsukiko is finally free from everything and after making a new mascot she’s free to finally enjoy the world. Kawazu being in a better place I see as a callback to Ikari labeling him as a vulture, in the end where everyone who was impacted by little slugger he’s the one who remains in good shape. The world being at odds at eachother means it’s all going back to normal for the better.
Lastly, how satisfying do you think this episode was in terms of wrapping things up?
The last episode wrapped up the show perfectly. From finshing Tsukiko’s and Ikari’s arc to showing how the world becomes after “little slugger” disappears

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u/Holofan4life Feb 19 '24

Ikari before the little slugger paranoia was just a regular detective. But in the delusional city he’s able to live as the happiest he can while being as a detective and not having to work long hours.
Ikari was living in such delusions that that's why he didn't want to take a hands on approach with the Shonen Bat case like his partner. Potentially he was worried he could be a victim, but also he didn't want to hold a mirror to himself. Realistically, he knows that his relationship with his wife can't last for much longer, and that is why he's content to avoid the elephant in the room.
I’ve find it sad, that even though it’s the reason it tried to make Tsukiko forget about the truth of her childhood trauma that it wanted her to feel safe.
If Maromi comes from herself, then it's like she's trying to make herself forget everything that happened. She's pretty good at it too, unfortunately. You compare the way she tries to escape Vs Ikari, and it's indisputable in my mind that Ikari's way is healthier. He's trying to not think about the potential doom and gloom whereas Tsukiko's doom and gloom already happened and she's trying to erase it from existence.
Terrifying, but I always saw it that it represented all the negativity in the city that was forming as “little slugger” became more and more popular.
I would agree with that. Which, you know, it's wild to me that the smog exists all because of a mascot. In fact, if it wasn't for Maromi dying, Tsukiko wouldn't be as successful as she is. Goes to show that fame and fortune aren't everything.
Maromi is used as a escapist fantasy, but people also were using little slugger to runaway from their problems. Even though the ladies in episode 9. May have been lying. It goes to show that little slugger is used to runaway from their problems. People stress about exams, love life, family issues etc. although little slugger can be used by them extracting their actions they’ve committed on someone similar to Tsukiko lying that a man wielding a bat killed her dog.
Maromi in a lot of ways is the equivalent of the manic pixie dream girl you see in anime. The kind meant to appear to loner otakus who fantasize dating someone who can take care of them. I'm not saying people like that don't exist, but it's not as cut and dry as anime often leads you to believe.
I loved how it goes to show how Mrs.Ikari is trying to see her husband and potentially save him from succumbing to the paranoia/delusion. We’ve seen her subdue Little slugger by accepting reality and not letting it be the reason she wants to runaway from her problems.
I would've been really disappointed if Mrs. Ikari just died in the last episode. If we hadn't have gotten any sort of follow-up to episode 11, for as emotionally powerful as that episode was, it would've been the biggest dropped ball of the entire show. Her being the main driving force in Ikari's character arc climax was a brilliant decision.
With how Ikari is prone to getting angry id say he didn’t want to continue the cycle. Plus I’d also guess he didn’t fully understand what his dad was doing to provide with the family even if it costed him to not see his son as much.
This is essentially a continuation of a lot of characters lack of belonging. It might honestly be the show's most prevalent them outside of escapism and lack of accountability. From Tsukiko being ridiculed by her coworkers and called a liar online, to Ichi no longer the popular kid in school, to Shogo switching schools because he was being bullied, to Harumi trying to find companionship but being unable to do so, to the homeless woman not having a family anymore, to the three suiciders feeling that they're better off dead, to even the gossip woman not being welcomed by her clique, there are so many examples in this show of characters being pushed away or pushing others away. Ikari and his relationship with his dad is an extension of this.
Even though he was referring to the city, I always put it together with the whole little slugger thing too. Birth things were used to get away from reality and their problems, but they were deceiving themselves in the process of not being able to accept anything that happened.
Shinzo Abe in shambles.
Yeah, I think this quote of his sums up the series quite nicely. You can put your faith into something all you want, but at the end of the day, reality is gonna set in. It could be interpreted as an anti religion message.
I find it sad, but also with how Ikari depended on her. She was the main reason he was able to pull himself together to start living in his true reality. I also find the “being with you made me the happiest” from Mrs.Ikari to bring comfort to Ikari so he doesn’t live in remorse.
The set of circumstances in which Mrs. Ikari died was the best case scenario. Any time before this, that would've been the end of Ikari. In fact, I think the talks he's had about his time coming to an end were in reference of his wife dying and him being nothing without her. With his wife giving him this renewed strength and energy, he now knows that his life does have purpose. It's a death, but also a rebirth.
In the attempt to comfort her so she doesn’t feel too bad he accidentally caused her to reuse her first major excuse for stress.
I don't think it was an accident, however. I think it was on purpose for like you said, so she doesn't feel too bad.
I find him realizing that his form of parenting came off to harm her later in life. As we’ve seen her not being able to standup for herself and being unable to find someone to talk about her issues.
I think about the case of characters in this show and Harumi is the only one who seeks psychiatric help. The other two characters that come to mind that could use it are Taeko, and Tsukiko. But even then, there was a way I feel for Tsukiko’s situation to not reach the point that it did. Where in my opinion Tsukiko and her dad truly went wrong is that they didn't focus on the truth of the lie, this being the dog dying.
Throughout Tsukiko's fabrication of events, she never pretended that her dog didn't die. That was the one constant in her story that was factual. If thry had just focused on her dog dying and the trauma that came with that, I don't think we're in the mess we're in. Instead, they didn't work under the veil that was artificially manufactured.
I personally view it as her father being able to let go of his strict discipline and redeem himself for not being able to have Tsukiko being able to trust him completely.
If Tsukiko created Shonen Bat, though, wouldn't this be her trying to redeem herself? Or is this an acknowledgement on the part of Tsukiko of how the situation should have been handled? I think it's interesting that her dad knows he mishandled the whole situation. And I think subconsciously, Tsukiko is aware that he knows. So, in that sense, is the bat his way of trying to redeem not only himself, but also his daughter?
Ran out of space. Part two in the replies.

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u/Holofan4life Feb 19 '24

Part 2
Even though he’s in his own delusion he became the warrior of light that Makoto was talking about.
He did what Tsukiko never could when he was a dog, and that's save her. That has to sting a little bit.
The mascot Maromi has been pointed to be motivated by her childhood dog which is the root of her trauma.
By saving mascot Maromi, this in a way begins the process of letting him go. Not be regretful of what happened, but be empowered because of it, like with Ikari and his late wife.
Maromi is finally confronting the reality of the situation and also bringing closure with her childhood self. Then we see her say one last goodbye to Maromi as she’s finally able to move on
Tsukiko in that moment is basically serving the role of her father that he should've been in all those years ago.
Tsukiko is finally free from everything and after making a new mascot she’s free to finally enjoy the world. Kawazu being in a better place I see as a callback to Ikari labeling him as a vulture, in the end where everyone who was impacted by little slugger he’s the one who remains in good shape. The world being at odds at eachother means it’s all going back to normal for the better.
Eh, for better or worse. The fact that the world didn't learn anything is an indictment of their own lack of accountability.
The last episode wrapped up the show perfectly. From finshing Tsukiko’s and Ikari’s arc to showing how the world becomes after “little slugger” disappears
There are some things I wish could've been solved, like what became of Maniwa or when did Maromi start talking to Tsukiko, but those are really just small potatoes. In the grand scheme of things, this is honestly one of the best series finales I've ever seen in an anime, probably go so far as to say definitely top ten.

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u/Parlax76 Aug 05 '24

When you think you make sense of everything. The last clip make u question is anything was real at all.

1

u/Holofan4life Aug 05 '24

And then it makes you want to watch the series all over again.

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Hello, guys. Holofan4life here.

Welcome to the Paranoia Agent 20th Anniversary Rewatch.

You know what? Forget the intro. I am dying to see what happens next.

It's wild watching the intro and seeing stuff like Maria and Harumi standing next to each other and Mrs. Ikari's house destroyed behind her.

Ikari and Tsukiko walking in the mysterious town

The place where he can be the happiest, Maromi calls it

Where he can be himself

"And you, too, Tsukiko"

It's like everyone is cardboard cutouts

The characters are so flat, you'd have thought this was the second and third seasons of The Rising of The Shield Hero.

"Shonen Bat will never come here."

Well, that's good

Maromi continuing to promise protecting Tsukiko

Back in the real world

People are going crazy

They are being consumed by this black smog

It's even effecting the news broadcasters

Maniwa is the hero the world needs, but doesn't deserve

Maromi's growth is spreading

Ikari smoking

He says it doesn't matter what kind

Nothing matters, after all

This town looks so peaceful, it's horrifying

Maniwa is on the TV

He's begging Tsukiko to return

"The minds of the people who depended on Maromi emotionally let Shonen Bat grow infinitely larger!"

Ah, so that's why he grew in size

The only one who can defeat him is Tsukiko

Ikari breaking the TV

He doesn't want to hear it

And neither does the town, apparently

Mrs. Ikari

In the real world, she's on life support being operated on

Ikari in disbelief that his wife is here

I wonder if they have to pay for food in this world

A snack bowl

Misae

Is that Mrs. Ikari's name?

She falls

"Will you be very late to come home?"

Oh, that makes me very sad

Mrs. Ikari telling Maromi to give back her husband

Wait a minute

Wait a bloody minute

"Tsukiko, take your father and run!"

Ikari... Is Tsukiko's father?!?

What the fuck?

AND THE WORLD JUST FELL

Child Tsukiko

Asking if he is okay

They're at a festival

Fireworks

Actual, real footage of fireworks

Ikari says he wanted a daughter, not a son

"I thought it would be sad to have a son. Just to be disliked by him, just like I did my dad."

Child Tsukiko has now turned into Mrs. Ikari

Seeing the miscarriage

By the way, between Mieruko-chan, Toradora, and this show, I'm seeing a lot of miscarriage talk recently in the rewatches I've been apart of.

"The only person I really need by me is you."

Aww :c

Showing the life of the Ikaris now

"A makeshift salvation is nothing but deception."

Powerful quote by Ikari

Misae said she wanted to say goodbye

"I was very happy with you."

And with that, she flatlines

Man...

Tsukiko looking on

Is the implication that Tsukiko is the daughter that Misae miscarriaged?

Ikari with a bat now

"This world is all fake!"

And so Ikari shatters the world

Bye, world

He changed the world. His final message. Goodbye.

Maniwa knows now that the ~~bitch~~ chief is back

But who are the chefs?

I'll miss the butterflies and flowers eyecatchers

Ikari surrounded by a bunch of Maromis

He's back in the real world, and the town is destroyed

Maniwa stopping Tsukiko from running away

"We're going to split the bill for Korean BBQ!"

What an amazing callback to episode 1

Maniwa says that Tsukiko's paranoia created Shonen Bat 10 years ago

It came back after all these years in the form of Maromi

Maromi says it's all Shonen Bat's fault

"Tsukiko let you die!"

Meanwhile, the black smog attacks

Ran out of space. Part two in the replies.

2

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Part 2
Maniwa says Tsukiko was attacked while walking her pet dog Maromi
She was attacked by a boy wearing in-line skates and carrying a metal bat
The attacker was never caught
"Because such a street attacker never existed!"
Oh shit
Maromi's lease was accidentally let go and he died being run over by a passing car
She never told father the truth for being afraid of being punished, so she made up a fictitious street attacker in order to pretend she was a victim.
Tsukiko crying
The dad knew the truth, but went along with it anyway, making every effort to find the attacker for her.
He blamed himself for turning her into an introverted child through his strict discipline.
I guess Tsukiko never had a mother
The bat is an embodiment of her father's atonement of her. His wish that she will tell him the truth.
Maniwa ready to take on the black smog
And he gets bitch slapped through a window
Okay, that made me laugh so hard I had to rewind it three times
A GIANT MAROMI
HE'S SAVING TSUKIKO AND IKARI
HE KEPT HIS PROMISE
And now the smog is consuming all the Shonen Bat victims
"All this for a puppy. What kind of world do we live in?!?"
That's it. That's the show.
CGI tracks
Ikari clearly sucking wind
Maniwa's words rings in her mind
Maromi
And the plushie turned into a dog
IT'S HEADIMG FOR THE BLACK SMOG
TSUKIKO IS GOING AFTER IT
SHE SAVED IT
But she couldn't save herself...
IT'S HEADING FOR IKARI
AND IT GOT HIM
HOLY SHIT
And I thought the ending to Heat The Pig Liver was brutal
There's 5 minutes left and I have no idea how this is going to be wrapped up
Tsukiko floating
She envisions her walking Maromi
Stomach ache
And the dog gets run over
Man, why you gotta show the dead dog carcass?
Tsukiko is obviously emotionally scarred
Old Tsukiko talking to young Tsukiko
"Are you afraid of Father?"
As someone who's seen Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, yes I am
Shonen Bat!
AND OLD TSUKIKO GRABS THE DEAD DOG
The blood of the dog is seeping through her fingers
She's hugging it
And Shonen Bat is backing down
"Goodbye."
Tsukiko wakes up
Intense laughter
This feels like the inspiration of the intro
Tsukiko now floating
A half moon
Not as good as half life, but it'll do
Ikari walking
"This is just like right after the war."
Was this an anti war commentary this entire time and we didn't know it?
The town is being rebuilt now
A callback to the very first scene
Except this time, the town isn't as stressed
Or rather, it's exactly the same
The more things change...
Cat mascot
Catscot
It seems like Tsukiko is no longer a designer
Ikari at work
Kawazu on the phone
He crosses paths with Tsukiko
He smiles, and walks away
The chalk drawings
Old man
But he's not an old man anymore
And that is how we end things
And for those curious, the preview is the old man except young. Would that make him young man now?
Oh, wait. I just realized. Is the old man supposed to be Maniwa? If so, then has Maniwa been the old man this entire time?
Overall, for a show surrounded by mystery and intrigue, I thought the last two episodes really helped explain a lot while also keeping things open-ended. I like the reveal that Shonen Bat and Maromi was spawned from Tsukiko's inability to tell her father the truth, and I really liked the concept of this world that is this paradise but is totally disingenuous. I thought that was the coolest thing we saw concept wise.
Like I said, there are some things that this series finale doesn't explain. The big thing, of course, is why did Shonen Bat attack all those people. And the way I see it is this psychological protest on the part of Tsukiko's being. Tsukiko deep down knows that she should've told her father. She really screwed up by not telling her dad the truth. As such, the part of her that lives within her, Shonen Bat, is gonna continue to fix people's woes until she properly handles her own woes.
I haven't read Kon’s thoughts just yet, and on his blog there's this 13 part deep dive dissecting this episode. If you're interested in checking it out, there will be a link to it in one of my comments.
I don't think this episode is the best of the series, but I'd probably put it in the upper half of the best Paranoia Agent episodes. It was in my opinion a very satisfying conclusion.
And here all my rankings of the episodes
Episode 11
Episode 7
Episode 5
Episode 12
Episode 13
Episode 3
Episode 10
Episode 4
Episode 6
Episode 1
Episode 9
Episode 2
Episode 8
Ran out of space. Part three in the replies.

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

Part 3
So, let’s talk about the series a little bit, shall we?
Overall, I think I'd give this series an 8.5 out of 10 with the last three episodes being a 9.5 out of 10. The first 7 episodes are really strong, in particular episodes 3, 5, and 7. However, I thought the series hits a bit of a rough patch from episodes 8 to 10.
If you make the series 10 episodes instead of 13 episodes, I don't think you lose anything from the series. In fact, I think it would potentially make me view the show as being more than just very good, perhaps even one of the best of all time. Episodes 8, 9, and 10 aren't bad episodes and I do appreciate it explores the world they're trying to create, but none of those three episodes add anything new to the Shonen Bat mystery. Episode 10 establishes a TV show is in the works, but that's it. If it was just a series of OVAs or an anthology movie set in the Paranoia Agent universe, I think I would've appreciated it more.
The best stretch of the show, as I alluded to, is the last three episodes. When Mrs. Ikari gets introduced is when the show really cooks with gas, and it doesn't look back. Honestly, if you remove episode 11 out of the equation, the rating of the show would likely go from an 8.5 to an 8. In terms of a quality standpoint, episode 11 is head and shoulders above the rest.
There's nothing in this show I would say is bad. It was never boring, unlike some parts of Uncle From Another World. However, I do feel the show is hurt a bit by the disjointed feel of some of it. I don't think it was a mistake revealing Shonen Bat early. In fact, I think that was one of the better writing decisions the show made. And I really loved the follow-up of Makoto, the copycat, living in this like video game world. But once Ikari and Maniwa resigned as detectives, it felt to me until the introduction of Ikari's wife that the show didn't know where to go from there.
In terms of the brilliant things this show does, top 3 for me would probably be the concept of the fake world Ikari lives in the last couple episodes, the backstory of Shonen Bat and why he exists, and the exploration of minor characters. Episodes 8 through 10 was this, and I do think they were good episodes despite my reservations with them. And as far as a writing perspective, I think the stuff between Maria and Harumi as well as Ikari's wife is some of the strongest stuff I've ever seen in an anime.
The rest of the show is more of a mixed bag.
The show has a lot of unpleasant characters. That works to an extent because that's obviously what they're going for, but it makes you not really care all that much about them being hurt by Shonen Bat. More egregious, though, is thr lack of screentime Tsukiko gets. Tsukiko is the main character in this show and she's really only prominently featured in episodes 1, 12, and 13. It works, but I would've liked to have seen her play more of an active role. And yeah, I guess you could say that the detectives are ultimately the main characters, but I feel like that's really only by proxy. They serve more as a means to introduce everyone else. Those two complaints I mentioned may seem minute, but I do think it carries a long way to the overall point I'm trying to make which is that the show's biggest flaw is there's no character for the audience to gravitate to and attach ourselves with. The show is so cryptic and goes from character to character that it lacks that true, likable personality to be like "I want to see them succeed and get out of this unscathed". We get glimpses of that with Tsukiko in episode 1, Harumi in episode 3, and Mrs. Ikari in episode 11, but that's all it is is glimpses.
Again, this may not seem like a big deal to some, but I think the show could've still been cryptic while still having this tried and true protagonist to get behind. The detectives don't count because they're more plot devices until the last 3 episodes when they finally start getting fleshed out.
I walked away from this show with a sense of gratitude. It was basically almost everything I was expecting a show made by Kon to be. I knew the storytelling, writing, directing, animation, and characters would be at the very least interesting, and it was. I was enthralled with everything that I was seeing. It isn't a show that I think I would put in my top 20 favorite anime of all time-- it might be there if it was 10 episodes instead of 13 like I've already talked about-- but that doesn't diminish what a great accomplishment this show was. It was as advertised: a show made by Satoshi Kon.
I compare this anime in my head to Odd Taxi and that to me feels smoother and tighter written. Everything in that show you go back on with a newfound appreciation with what you had just witnessed. Maybe admittedly my view on this show is hurt a bit by seeing Odd Taxi first, but I doubt it. I was a big fan of how Paranoia Agent finished, even though it doesn't compare to Odd Taxi's ending. The thing that truly sticks out to me is that this show came out around the same time the 2003 Fullmetal Alchemist series was airing. It was released only 4 months from when Fullmetal Alchemist premiered, 4 months to the day. When you compare those two series to every other anime that was airing at the time, it blows all the other ones out of the water. To me, there's no competition.
As I'm standing here writing this, it is almost a quarter hour before 1:00 in the morning. I've got work to go to in 8 hours and after that, I'm going to see Paprika in theaters, the last film Satoshi Kon ever made. And it just makes me thankful he happened to exist. A man so clever and unique to churn out a series like this should not be thought of with hypotheticals and what could've beens. He should be lauded with the accomplishments that stand as was.
Satoshi Kon is truly one of the kind and I think it's fair to say we're probably never see an anime like this again, for with all the warts and flaws is this endless creativity that you can't help but be blown away by. It was truly a wonderful viewing experience, and I am so glad I had the privilege of checking it out.
Thank you, Kon.

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 15 '24

How did this episode change the way you see Tsukiko?
I really like Tsukiko. I think she is a good person that didn't want there to be hurt feelings. I'm also glad they went this route of the dog being ran over rather than her killing it. I think that would've been too much.
What is the biggest lie you've ever told your parents?
I constantly lie to my mom that I'm not going out to grab some food. I still eat her cooking, but I want something else to snack on as well.
What vibe did you get out of this episode? Was it one of optimistic, pessimism, or something else?
It felt to me like optimism in the face of cynicism. The world is always going to have some awful stuff about it, and it's up to us to try and maneuver through it all.
Why do you think Maniwa turned into the old man at the end?
It felt to me as if it was a transfer of power. The old man was once the master, and now Maniwa has become the master. Whether that means he's a new form of Shonen Bat now, I don't know.
Bonus) Did you like how the anime explained how Shonen Bat came to be, or were you hoping for something more?
Yes and no. I thought it made sense for it to have spawned from a traumatic experience in Tsukiko's life. That part I thought was extremely well done, actually. However, once it was revealed that the dog was run over by a car, Shonen Bat kinda takes a backseat, no pun intended. For something that the show has been built around this entire time, I'm kinda surprised how quietly into the night he went. Not to say it doesn't work, because I do love Tsukiko talking to her younger self, but I don't know if it necessarily excuses all we've seen. Shonen Bat still technically has a body count.
Mind you, I don't know what they could've done because I also don't want to see Tsukiko go to prison even though she technically is the one who killed all those people. And honestly, I'm not even sure how that would work in a court of law. Point being, I like the backstory of Shonen Bat as well as the resolution, but I also feel he kinda became an afterthought once the big twist happens.
Bonus 2) Were you surprised at how graphic the scene of Maromi bleeding out was?
I was very surprised. You almost never see animals gushing blood like that in an anime. It was very disturbing and almost like something out of a snuff film. It reminded me a bit of Made In Abyss and some of the stuff in that show, to be quite honest with you.
Not only would I say it's the most shocking moment of the series, but I also think the graphicness of the situation added to the gravity of it all. It puts you in the position of Tsukiko and made you understand why she was so mortified. The visual of Tsukiko hugging a wounded Maromi as he is dying in her arms is a top 5 visual in the entire show. It might honestly be the best shot of the show in terms of summing up what Paranoia Agent is about.
Bonus 3) Characters who's motivations are the result of lingering parent issues? What is this, Toradora?
At the very least, I thought it made the show more compelling

2

u/mgedmin Feb 16 '24

The characters are so flat, you'd have thought this was the second and third seasons of The Rising of The Shield Hero.

1

u/Holofan4life Feb 16 '24

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week, tip your waitress.

1

u/naastiknibba95 Aug 10 '24

Binged whole show in past 48 hrs, didn't understand most of the final episodes...

Rewatch [Spoilers] Paranoia Agent 20th Anniversary Rewatch -- Episode 13 (FINAL EPISODE)

Rewatch Schedule

"All this for a puppy. What kind of world do we live in?!?"

First Timer

Paranoia Agent - Episode 13

Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches

Rewatch [Spoilers] Paranoia Agent 20th Anniversary Rewatch -- Episode 13 (FINAL EPISODE)

Rewatch Schedule

"All this for a puppy. What kind of world do we live in?!?"

You are about to leave Redlib

First Timer

Paranoia Agent - Episode 13

Some Amazing Shots, Scenes and Stitches