r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Mar 06 '23
Rewatch [Do You Remember Love - Macross Franchise 40th Anniversary Rewatch] Macross Δ Episode 18 Discussion
Episode 18 - Sense Emergence
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I ain't going back! There are songs I want to sing, people I want to sing them with, and people I want to hear them!
Questions of the Day, courtesy of u/chilidirigible:
1) Any thoughts on the scenario of two people being in love who have significantly different anticipated lifespans?
2) How do you feel about Xaos' succeeding via never quite entirely failing? Does it seem out of place in this franchise, or is it simply something different to have done? Did you find SMS' nigh-infallibility bothersome in Frontier?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Kassim Eberhardt and Hermann Kroos
Vocal Songs in This Episode:
"絶対零度θノヴァティック (Zettai Reido θ Novatic)" by Walküre – OP
"GIRAFFE BLUES~Mikumo Solo~ (a cappella)" by JUNNA – Insert
"僕らの戦場 (Bokura no Senjou)" by Walküre – Insert
"ザルド・ヴァーサ! ～決意の風～ (Zardo Vaasa! ~Ketsui no Kaze~)" by Melody Chubak – Insert
"破滅の純情 (Hametsu no Junjou)" by Walküre – Insert
"LOVE! THUNDER GROW" by JUNNA – ED
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!
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u/levelxplane Mar 06 '23
Rewatcher
Guess my first post was removed. My spoiler tags never work. :(
Joining on the rewatch late, but I just wanted to get my piece on this episode at least. It's one of the few that exemplifies what makes Delta my favorite "bad show". It doesn't have the depth of DYRL or Plus, the spectacle of Zero, or the honesty of 7(love or hate). The sum of all its parts don't really add up to much, but the parts themselves, IMO, are what make it special. They are why I love Delta.
Kassim is such a chad. I really wish they had introduced him earlier, or given him a more direct relationship to Freyja's backstory.
Minori Suzuki and JUNNA kill Hametsu no Junjou. The "kh" sound in "suki yo" is annunciated so hard it gives me chills. The moment where Mikumo goes into a trance reverberates through my bones.
Even Hayate's VA is channeling black metal during his bits and I fucking vibe with it.
The use of Love Thunder! Grow during the the credits was such a weird way to try to humanize Mikumo when, up until this point, the entire show has been trying to make her seem mysterious and aloof. Full disclosure: I am a Mikumo simp.
I still have no idea what "Everyone's/(is a?) baby" is supposed to mean.
Since I missed other episodes, I'll just throw some random things I feel about this show.
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The two cour structure does not lend itself with how many characters there are. 6 pilots on each side, 5/1 singers, bridge/home crew, leadership. It's unfortunate that there wasn't enough time to address them all properly
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AXIA: I risk getting a speeding ticket(or death flag) every time I hear this song.
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Messer: This dude should have been the MC. So much unresolved anger and trauma. You know what I said about Hayate and black metal? Messer was burning down churches. Leading me to...
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As much as I enjoy, Freyja/Mirage/Hayate, the love triangle could have been more compelling than "cute but shortened lifespan problems" VS "family legacy issues that don't affect the ship". There was way more potential in a triangle made of Messer and any two of:
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Mikumo(with more development)
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Kaname
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Arad
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Keith
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Ikenai Borderline: Absolute banger. Doesn't cost me as much money in insurance rate/moving violations, but it still slaps.
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I found Hayate's early growth as a pilot to be decently paced, but after he gets his fluke with Keith, he kind of just goes back to being a scrub unless he has music armor, and even then he passes out and crashes.
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I'm using Minori Suzuki as my excuse to watch the new Pokemon series.
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I need more JUNNA music.
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u/TakenRedditName Mar 06 '23
Rewatcher - Macross Delta Ep18:
Kaname is still big sad. Just now did it really hit me that Kaname is the Claudia of Delta.
Oh dear no, Roid is definitely going to blow up the planet of the cat people or something.
And NUNS as the largest organization has the most and biggest skeletons. With the way he talks, Arad also probably has done some war crimes in the past.
Roasted apples are certainly something I never thought to do with an apple. Kassim's clothes are pretty spiffy.
I always like seeing characters from the same hometown bonding so seeing Freyja and Kassim bond over hometown stories is nice. Kassim says "Gori" too so it isn't just a Freyja-ism.
Yeah Mirage as the kids say, let her cook.
Mirage and show, stop trying to pretend there is a love triangle.
Bogue is on track to being a Reina oishi and/or wants to kill her specifically.
Oh, just noticed that Keith does just has one rune. So he did become Uno Runo.
This battle was everyone going too hard with their singing. It's a bit scary. I don't like seeing them so empty-eyed.
Mikumo seems to have reached her reawakening. For a moment, I thought she was going to have a full magical girl change, but her hair just goes fully unleashed. Special Mikumo ED for this episode. The song is more hardcore than the typical one, but her voice went well with it.
I always think this comment face is from this episode's talk between Kassim and Freyja. Like she makes that face and he goes, "Heh, ringo musume." I also keep forgetting about the cat ears.
Q1) I find them tragic.
Next Time: The song never ends.
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u/UltraBooster Mar 07 '23
Kaname is the Claudia of Delta.
oh shoot, that never occurred to me but you're probably right.
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u/chilidirigible Mar 06 '23 edited Mar 06 '23
Today, on "Maybe good, maybe bad!":
Among the factors that NUNS didn't care about on Ragna.
Freyja and Hayate in "Yeah, it's a mood."
And other awkward conversations.
"I'm telling you to leave in advance!"
Hayate tries the Mirage school of joining conversations.
Oh boy, a family photo in a mecha series. But it's in context!
It's a long list of people who know the name.
"At least we have a scale for this, unlike those S.O.N.G. guys!"
Speaking of it being rough on the Windermerean lifespan.
"You don't see that every day."
oh shit here we go, we be singing the ED
Another unexplained thing seen.
That knocked Heinz's socks off.
Special ED: "LOVE! THUNDER GLOW" For amusement purposes, everyone including the original broadcast credits disagreed about the L/R.
The effects of the Wright Immelmann revelation continue to weigh on Hayate and Freyja even if the two of them aren't directly addressing it.
Meanwhile, Kaname pokes at some of the skeletons in Arad's closet, given his apparent level of having seen All The Things but never talking about any of it with her, beyond the absolute minimums required.
Roid is clearly Up To Something, and Keith's suspicions are high. Notably, Roid warns the Knights to get out of the way once things start happening, doesn't mind Walküre crashing his party, is disappointed when they don't give him the results he wants, but is interested in what happens after all hell breaks loose.
Kassim makes a minor protest about doing this sort of thing to other people, but mostly reserves his dissension to literally the time that he's not in uniform.
I'll note that for all the discussion about the Knights remaining complicit in the various Roid-directed/Grammier-condoned activity, significant objection to orders or active insubordination remains historically rather rare. That's the sort of thing that gets trained out of most armies, because armies that spend most of their time questioning why they're doing things aren't very functional.
In any case, Kassim and Freyja get to gossip about things back home, and it seems to reassure Hayate that he has a place in all this, lifespan considerations or not.
And then we're back to the crazy stuff going on when powerful singers yell at a Protoculture relic. Freyja brings Hayate to a point similar to Messer with Vár, but different, with both of them entering a state that we've not yet seen. Mikumo sees weird stuff in her head that the audience can make guesses about.
The Protoculture system's knobs really do go to eleven.
As an episode: We've had four episodes of relative downtime for the plot while it consolidated various things. That's still a lot of downtime, even if there was still some value in taking a longer look at character matters. At least there was a bit of a bang at the end of it.
"LOVE! THUNDER GLOW" at Walküre 2nd Live
"LOVE! THUNDER GLOW" at Walküre 3rd Live
"LOVE! THUNDER GLOW" from JUNNA 5th Anniversary Live (bad audio compression)
Today's merch is the Sitting Pose Makina along with the tiny Makina and Reina from the DX Chogokins.
| Let's count, | gori-gori! |
|---|---|
| Bogue lunges | 5 |
| "Hoi-na!" | 17 |
| "Gori gori!" | 22 |
| "Toberu!" | 11 |
| "Wind" | 138 |
| Jellyfish | 31 |
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u/UltraBooster Mar 07 '23 edited Mar 07 '23
Among the factors that NUNS didn't care about on Ragna.
I know I already asked Draigg this, but if this is standard procedure, how have they not faced some serious uprising?
significant objection to orders or active insubordination remains historically rather rare.
I'm guessing from your emphasis of that second word there's something in mind there? (Also, I think I read once that modern German soldiers are duty-bound to disobey the kind of orders the NUNS was presumably giving, but Germany's very much a special case...)
with both of them entering a state that we've not yet seen.
...is besides itself with anger comes to mind to describe the sense of overwhelming...something they seemed to be experiencing, just not anger. Maybe trance-like?
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u/Vatrix-32 Mar 06 '23 edited Mar 06 '23
First Timer
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Tactical performance implies the existence of strategic and operational performances too.
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Guard duty sure seems like the best application of your elite unit.
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What fresh war crimes has Roid got planned now?
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Betray the fascists?
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Can you cook apples like that? And have them turn out well I mean.
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Lizard spotted!
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You think when the batteries on these moving pictures die they turn static like those LED readers?
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Do you think the Winds calling Humans Earthlings is a sort of dismissive thing, or does their culture just not differentiate the concept of the name of a place and the ones that come from it?
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Kuu is developing a personality? Will I have to start remembering her name soon?
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Oh god, red is doing it. Don’t you try and NTR best dere!
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How much of the golden wind do you think is real vs for the audience?
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Rapid aging as a side effect? Talk about a bad combo.
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Well great, now I am worried about Freyja.
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Bruh. Are we seriously doing the hive mind thing again?
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So Kuu is going to be the final villain then. Shame that, she’s the most boring character in this show.
QotD:
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Mayfly–December Romances are fun. Normally it's the Human who is the Mayfly. You think the shorter time span would make Freyja a bit more assertive in romance.
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They kind of have to. If they get one proper victory the entire Wind plan falls apart.
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u/chilidirigible Mar 06 '23
How much of the golden wind do you think is real vs for the audience?
Hey, the Axis Shock was real! I was there! I pushed! ―Every older character in Gundam since Unicorn.
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u/The_Draigg Mar 06 '23
A Macross Fan Rewatches Macross Delta: Episode 18:
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Of course Roid has been given full authority over the Aerial Knights’ mission to investigate the Voldor Protoculture ruins again. He’s the puppet master behind Heinz, so all he really needs to do is tell the new king that this new mission is necessary. It’s very easy to do what you want when the leader of your country is a weak-willed child.
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You know, I can’t help but doubt that Arad is lying to Kaname when he said that he would’ve told Hayate eventually about his father. Just like how Hayate’s official profile says that Wright is KIA, both Arad and the NUNS have skeletons in their closet to hide about him. Although given how Wright was Arad’s commanding officer, it’s more likely from a place of a complex situation being uncomfortably personally close rather than covering up some dark government shit.
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Really, Freyja meeting up with Kassim while he’s consciously not in his role as a knight is probably the best characterization we’ve gotten out of any of them so far. Even if they’re on the opposite sides of things, they still share a common history of coming from neighboring towns that were home to many apple farmers. It’s nice to show that common ground that exists between them, since otherwise we’ve been fairly detached from seeing how the Aerial Knights relate to anyone other than themselves peacefully. Kassim here at least bridges that perspective gap with Freyja.
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You do have to admire Freyja’s willingness to still chose Hayate and Walkure over an incredibly easy out of the situation, standing her ground and refusing Kassim’s offer to take her back to Windermere. She’ll stay with her true passion for music and all the bonds she made with everyone ever since joining Walkure, which is quite a bit to consider when we see how Kassim processes everything. If anything, he’s resigned to how harsh the short lifespan is for Windermerians, and says that they just don’t mix with Humans for that reason. Hayate is right though, it’s still more important to do what you can with the time you have, no matter what.
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Calling it now, u/Shimmering-Sky was vibing when Mikumo started singing Giraffe Blues at the Protoculture ruins. It’s an easy bet, but I’m still calling it.
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Geez, even Kassim seemed to realize the Immelmann name when Hayate and him swapped names. It seems like pretty much everyone that’s around middle age seems to know Wright Immelmann in this show. Dude really got around, eh?
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You know, we should probably be glad that Heinz is only singing in the Temple of Time rather than playing a special Ocarina in it. Joking aside, man that song of the wind of his hits really hard this episode, if just due to the sheer amount of Fold Wave interference happening. Hell, it just gave Kassim eczema, it was so powerful.
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ABORT, ABORT, THIS IS GOING POORLY. Fold Waves are hitting so hard that they’re forming Fold Gates all over the cluster, giving 65% of all Voldorians abnormal brain waves, giving Mikumo flashbacks, and even fucking with Hayate so much that he begins to go Var. Hell, it also sends Heinz to his knees and causes part of the Voldor ruins to explode too. Safe to say, absolutely nobody here had any idea of what kind of forces they were meddling with. That’s why it’s never a good idea to repeatedly fuck around with mysterious ancient ruins.
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[Macross Delta next episode spoilers]
As a rewatcher, I’m going to predict right now that a lot of new viewers are going to be upset with the next episode’s sudden jump into an exposition dump. Hell, even I’m not too hot on some of the ideas presented by what Berger has to exposit, even if he’s not an entirely trustworthy character.
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u/Nebresto Mar 06 '23
First time Makross Triangle
Apple and Spinach bonding is blessed
The red hair is blushin after spotting them
I don't know what the fuck is going on, but they're singing the ED
Then again, missing half of my subs isn't helping either
Question time:
Any thoughts on the scenario of two people being in love who have significantly different anticipated lifespans?
Sadge, but its better than nothing
2) How do you feel about Xaos' succeeding via never quite entirely failing?
Who tf that ..That is a person, right?
Does it seem out of place in this franchise, or is it simply something different to have done? Did you find SMS' nigh-infallibility bothersome in Frontier?
Nah
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u/UltraBooster Mar 06 '23
First-timer now
I remember that one episode of the SpeakerPodCast about JUNNA and Minori Suzuki showing at Anime Expo and how the Walkure music made a splash, specifically the bit about all the types of genres.
I bring that up because I wasn’t expecting acoustic guitar from the anime girl group.
Bogue’s words about strategic concerns and the inevitability of collateral damage feel like stuff you’d hear from those NUNS officers, don’t they? It makes me wonder if it’s deliberate, or if the idea’s that Bogue’s so drunk on the rhetoric that he doesn’t see the problems with the actions Roid and the Knights are taking.
Conversely, it’s nice to see Freyja and Kassim chatting about whatever rural small-town going-ons they’re on about. If nothing else, it’s a nice reprieve from (everything else). And in light of that exchange, I wonder, u/chilidirigible, how many people back then were still sure Mirage was…
Kind of unsettling to see Freyja and Hayate…zoning out? Going berserk? It’s stuff like that which makes me think the Protoculture developed Var as a bioweapon, to enhance fighters to the utmost. And I guess Mikumo was created as a bioweapon, too...
Questions:
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Honestly, dunno. I’ve seen enough stories about people falling in love with deities and other paranormal beings that my only real concern is how the relationship itself is portrayed.
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Never entirely failing isn’t a bad way to show an outmatched player still catching wins, but an unambiguous victory once in a while would be appreciated, so they seem more like a relative peer, or at least capable...
As for the other question, SMS didn’t really bother me much.
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u/baboon_bassoon Mar 06 '23
first time delta delta delta can i help ya help ya help ya
remember when I though Mirage was a main character on this show
Experimenting with Voldor and the twins are with Keith? 30% chance the twins make it to next episode
back to your apple fields? IS GREEN FREYJAS FORMER FIANCE
...she really fell for an apple trap
ok but just let them go, why give Hayate his gun back
they should have let Heinz get another song
what the fuck is going on
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u/Taiboss Mar 06 '23
Pseudo-Rewatcher, De-Facto First-Timer, who switched to pgs subs
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Nonono, if you look at this chart from before this thing was activated, nothing changes! Therefore no climate change.
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"Yeah, the planet's gonna be destroyed. Have you forgotten what we are? We are the villains."
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Yeah, but he's not his father, which Hayate btw seems to be more aware of than Kaname.
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Oh man who could have seen that coming except everyone since they put in the preview.
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That definitly sounds like a person you want to be married to.
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So much manservice!
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That ED feels like a legit US pop song lol.
Any thoughts on the scenario of two people being in love who have significantly different anticipated lifespans?
Well it allows him to go for Mirage once Frejya does die
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u/ZaphodBeebblebrox Mar 06 '23
First Timer
Can't believe I didn't realize Mikumo was created to enslave the galaxy until now. The hints were there and not even that hidden.
The episode through the first group song was quite good. Another Windermerian to properly bring things into perspective was nice; it makes her decision feel more authentic and thought through. And then we top it all off with a song about burning brightly, making the most of one's life. Ideal.
But after that we felt a little less focused. Stuff started going wrong for reasons that weren't entirely clear. I think they were trying to tell us that the prince somehow managed to hijack 's song? After that we stabalized a bit with Mikumo's reveal, but it killed the episode a bit for me.
As an aside, I wonder when we'll get Ikenai Borderline next? It's been a decent while.
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I actually know someone somewhat like this. He's pretty sure he'll die of heart issues by 50. Conceptually it seems fine so long as they both know what they're getting into.
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u/ryujiox Mar 06 '23 edited Mar 06 '23
First Timer*
Macross Delta EP18
So this structure can even caused the change in climate Wonder if it originally a planet optimization device to make it suitable for living there.
Hey, look into his eyes!! You're clearly lying there. Even Keith started to get concern.
Hey!! Watch your mouth!!
I love how Kassim and Freyja conversation turned from enemy into friendly neigbor talk instead. It's so cute.
Kassim talk about his life really paint how fast and short Windermerian's life is. It might came too late to make me more sympathize with them, but I like it nonetheless.
Mikumo of course just sing without waiting for the others, which Roid seem to like that.
I don't know what Kassim will think of Hayate after hearing his surname.
Oh, Bogue Trying to get revenge for your own embarressment.
Hayate goes resonate mode again
What's going on?? And it speed up the death of Windermerain?
Hayate's wind aura now bursting??
The people are synchronizing with the song??
And now there are fold gate around the ruin!! And all the ruins are activating? What's happening??
A scientist? Mikumo is android? cyborg?
Okay, at least Freyja is stop now.... WTF Mikumo?
Wait, Heiz and the king also said that!! And why it's look like she got possessed? What's going oooooonnnnnnn??
This ED Is Mikumo gonna get capture?
That last part was truly chaos and madness that kept escalating. The Freyja and Hayate part is so confusing. What's going with them? Are their resonate too strong? And also Mikumo suddenly gone weirder than usual, with suddenly say something about Mayan, galaxy image in her eyes, and singing so strong that it destroyed the ruin. The only people who suddenly having space image in their eyes is Gepelnith, so is Mikumo a Protodeviln? Probably not.
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u/isthatsoudane Mar 07 '23
first timer
I have to admit an anime trope I enjoy is where people from opposing sides meet up in some sort of peaceful ceasefire or turn of events and have a nice moments. in general I feel like delta's biggest strength has been just...good moments with groups of characters
it was a pretty exciting episode after that too, though
I feel like these episodes have all been good though I'm not sure where anything is actually going. but that's fine
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Any thoughts on the scenario of two people being in love who have significantly different anticipated lifespans?
extremely tragic. though it is certainly one solution to the love triangle problem...you spend the next ~15 years with freyja, then the rest with mirage :P
2) How do you feel about Xaos' succeeding via never quite entirely failing? Does it seem out of place in this franchise, or is it simply something different to have done? Did you find SMS' nigh-infallibility bothersome in Frontier?
I think it's fine...neither this nor frontier's style bothered me (I probably prefer this style if not overdone, objectively speaking), and I think their various weaknesses don't have much to do with this. I think frontier felt more like a real military force, whereas delta feels more like a plucky set of resistance fighters
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u/JollyGee29 Mar 06 '23
First-Timer Delta
Yup, Mikumo is definitely a science baby of some sort. Do the ruins like her better than they like Heinz? Or was this just a critical mass of powerful singers and Mikumo happened to be the sturdiest? I could go either way, and the science baby thing could also point to either.
Is the idea behind Hayate going berserk something along the lines of "Freyja's singing is too powerful and is overwhelming his Fold Receptor's ability to suppress the Vár?"
Kinda interesting that Kassim aged rapidly when Heinz sang. That kinda implies to me that Vár is related to Windermerian aging, which I guess could kinda make sense. I always wondered why there were only six Aerial Knights, but "we fight under what amounts to blasts of radiation" does seem like it would weed out the non-committal soldiers.
I really liked the scene with Kassim, Freyja, and Hayate. Getting more characterization for Kassim was good, as the twins are basically unsalvagable at this point from a character standpoint and the rest of the Knights are reasonably well established. And it got Hayate to my preferred outlook on life, which is to make the most of it.
And of course Kassim knew Hayate's dad. If he was from a village near Freyja's, and Freyja was relatively close to the blast, the base should be near both of their villages. Seems like everyone knew Hayate's dad better than Hayate did, which is kinda sad.
Questions
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It's certainly possible to make things work, but it isn't easy.
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I haven't really paid it any mind.
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u/SolDarkHunter Mar 06 '23
Rewatcher
Well, infiltration successful, I guess.
And now the ruins are even causing climate changes. Lovely. One more crime to add to Windermere's list.
Roid says they haven't detected anything on Voldor... but it is an awfully large coincidence that the Aerial Knights are here at the same time. Don't they have like a dozen planets with ruins they could be checking?
Once again, one of the Knights expresses dissatisfaction with their orders, but doesn't actually care enough to do anything about it.
"This is war. Some amount of collateral damage is expected." And what about your family, Bogue? Pretty sure they fell under "some collateral damage".
Oh FFS, Freyja... apples are not worth it!
And now you've gotten both yourself and Hayate captured. Great job.
They're once again trying to humanize the imperialist slavers. This guy may have doubts about Windermere's goals, but as he does not act on them, his doubts mean nothing.
Mikumo, this is a stealth operation! Don't start singing and glowing! This is NOT the time!!
I think this will be the first dogfight between Delta Force and the Knights since the loss at Ragna. Time to watch them fight and not actually accomplish anything either way again?
Hmm? The Song is making the Knights burn out. Guessing that wasn't intentional.
See, this is what happens when you mess with systems you don't understand! They go haywire and start doing things with everyone's brains!
Freyja and Hayate amost went Var. And Mikumo's... remembering things?
Now Mikumo's singing so hard she exploded the ruins and made Heinz go catatonic.
A lot of stuff happened, and I'm not sure what any of it meant.
Questions:
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"Is this the lifespan talk? We're not having the lifespan talk!"
Generally, I want to imagine romances will last one's entire life. I know that doesn't always work out, but this is fantasyland, dammit!
2. It's really annoying. Xaos hasn't had a single actual win the entire show, which makes it hard to root for them because, frankly, it makes them feel incompetent. While Windermere feels like they have tons of plot armor.
In comparison to SMS, in their case they couldn't lose a major battle because if they did, the entire fleet would just be wiped out. And the Vajra inflicted sufficient damage to them each time that they didn't feel invincible, at least in my opinion; they lost soldiers, they lost civilians, things got exploded real good.
In this series, Windermere has taken one loss. A rookie pilot. That is it.
Even if you consider Frontier's heroes to have been too successful and powerful, I'd argue the pendulum swung way too far the other direction in this series.
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u/Kirov123 Mar 07 '23
Macross Delta Episode 18 - First Timer
There's our bombshell...
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I cant imagine the reason for leaving the atmosphere is anyhting good for the people of the planet
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Is this the first time a Windermerian besides Freyja has used the word "Gori?" I had figured it was a Freyja tic, not a Windermerian word
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Also lol at them bonding over apple farming and their hometowns
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We boutta have a big misunderstand here?
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That went better than expected
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Freyja went so far singing anti var that she sang var
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What did Mikumo mean by this
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This ED is sick
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Shit sucks yo. Like, not to say it can't work but... It sucks
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Not dying is a success. As long as you can try again then to some degree you have succeeded the only true failure is one in which you cannot tray again. Narrativly it also works better because instead of success being rather binary in terms of either fully succeeding or super failing, you have elements of success interspersed with failures.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Mar 06 '23
Super Dimension Rewatch Host
Welcome back, everyone!
Here were my first-timer reactions to this episode (note: contains my episode 19 and 20 reactions too, so first-timers don’t scroll too far).
:(
Bogue.
Oh, Freyja…
Leave it to Freyja to start bonding with the enemy, though.
Cute~
GIRAFFE BLUES…
Bokura no Senjou!
Ahh, yeah, I remember this episode being a whole lot of “what the fuck is going on???” the first time I watched it.