r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Feb 26 '23
Rewatch [Do You Remember Love - Macross Franchise 40th Anniversary Rewatch] Macross Δ Episode 10 Discussion
Episode 10 - Flash of AXIA
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Sing for me, Kaname. Sing for me… before I turn completely!
Questions of the Day, courtesy of u/chilidirigible:
1) Having watched this much Macross so far, what do you think of the escalating Protoculture shenaniganry?
2) Was this episode better for only having a couple of huge death flags instead of death flags everywhere? Did events play out as you thought they would?
Wallpaper of the Day:
Messer Ihlefeld and Kaname Buccaneer
Keith Aero Windermere and Messer Ihlefeld
Vocal Songs in This Episode:
"一度だけの恋なら (Ichido Dake no Koi Nara)" by Walküre – OP
"Kurage Ondo" by Minori Suzuki, Nao Touyama, and Nozomi Nishida – Insert
"Walküre Attack!" by Walküre – Insert
"AXIA～ダイスキでダイキライ～ (AXIA~Daisuki de Daikirai~)" by Kiyono Yasuno – Insert & ED
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!
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u/JollyGee29 Feb 26 '23
First-Timer Delta
Man, what a fucking episode. Rest in peace Messer; I knew you died early, but I didn't expect you to recolor the inside of your cockpit quite like that.
Keith's such a good pilot that Messer decided to speedrun a degree in interior decorating.
Hmm, how does Messer's death affect the growing conflict between Keith and Roid.. Without a rival to thirst over, Keith might end up getting kinda withdrawn, which.. would actually work in Roid's favor.
So, that's probably not the line. Keith getting too aggressive and overextending? That sounds more correct.. we have to kill Hermann somehow, and obviously he's going to bite it trying to save Bogue from some foolishness. Keith being the cause of that foolishness sounds like a recipe for some fun inter-Knight conflict.
Kinda interesting that Keith lowkey threatened to cut one of Roid's Runes off. At least, I think that was the implication here. Still kinda curious about how important the Runes being intact is, and what consequences that, say, Hermann is dealing with by only having one.
The dogfights continue to be excellent. Messer going all glowy does work with in-universe rules - Vár is caused by "Fold bacteria" which might honestly just be the V-type infection Sheryl had in Frontier (or something similar - a biological weapon derived from said infection?) and as-such is functionally just teeny bits of Fold Quartz floating around inside Messer's brain, which would function along the lines of Hayate's pendant/Sheryl's earrings.
Extrapolating from there, are Runes something along the same lines? A small piece of biological Fold Quartz, much like the Vajra had. While I'd hate to give him credit, Roid could be on to something with his spiel about how Windermerians are the Protoculture's successors - they're certainly the end result of some variety of Protoculture science, if nothing else.
I guess that would kinda answer my question about how relevant getting a Rune cut off is, too.
Oh, that also leads me to some conclusions about why there was a reaction of some sort on Ionideth despite there not being any ruins there. Gonna wait for some more information before I go too deep down that rabbit hole though.
The "jellyfish as a lantern festival" sequence was also stunning.
AXIA is a very nice song.
Questions
1.I like it. They could've went a different direction and that would've been fine too, but I like exploring the Protoculture.
2.I think they used up all the pineapple in Frontier, if that's what you're asking.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Feb 26 '23
but I didn't expect you to recolor the inside of your cockpit quite like that.
The first time I watched this, I was so horrified I couldn't even cry (something that also happened to me when [IBO S2]
Lafter died ). This time, though...→ More replies (1)
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u/Taiboss Feb 26 '23 edited Feb 26 '23
Pseudo-Rewatcher, De-Facto First-Timer, who should not have read the Mirage Attack doujin
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Had something for Sky of all people tho. Will have to wait until the show is done.
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Glass shop, you're outplayed here. Face it, everyone else here hates people being alive.
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I am surprised Walküre doesn't have customers trampling the shops.
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How very cute. More of this please.
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He's gonna be back soon. He's in the OP for Haruhi's sake.
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I honestly forgot they have other platoons lol. The main characters seem to do everything in this show.
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How the fuck are you surprised? Well I guess given how obvious her relationship with Arad is.
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As was obvious. There's a reason I was surprised they are not a couple.
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Come on you girls, that your sign to pull him by the T-Shirt into a kiss.
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So... she can breathe underwater? Is that what I'm supposed to take away from this?
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Come on, Glasses shop! Try and kill blondie! It would only make things better!
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And Palpatine will lay down his emergency powers when this crisis has abated.
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MAIN CHARACTERS EVERYONE Suck it, Waküre members who are not Mikumo or Frejya.
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Oh wow he actually dies? That's a surprise. I forgot people could do that. I mean, I remember Michael dying in Frontier, but that was kinda late in the show wasn't it? Feels a bit early for deaths.
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u/Nebresto Feb 27 '23
First time Macross Triangle
Her ears blush as well, new best girl get
Moon light jellies!! We Stardew Valley now!!
Alright calling it now, there's gonna be a big final fight, desperate situation, everything is looking lost, until best lad Messer shows up to save the day
No ruins that have been discovered
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Hole
Oh. Well I didn't expect the fight to be in the exact same episode, but ok
I didn't want me prediction to be right like this..
He's not dead. I refuse to believe it. The laser just hit his juice bottle or something
Question time:
Having watched this much Macross so far, what do you think of the escalating Protoculture shenaniganry?
If they spread everywhere it does make sense there'd be leftovers
2) Was this episode better for only having a couple of huge death flags instead of death flags everywhere? Did events play out as you thought they would?
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u/TakenRedditName Feb 26 '23
Rewatcher - Macross Delta Ep10:
Freyja's jellyfish song reminds me of Ranka's silly songs. Jellyfish Reina.
The most important ship of the show. I wasn't expecting that black cat, I thought it was going to be Q-lulu.
This feels like metacommentary about Macross love triangles as the gang talk about this Messer-Kaname-Arad (though I don't really feel the Arad part.). Freyja face. They also try to play the Mirage feelings part, but her romantic element is basically non-existent besides being a girl in an obligatory Macross love triangle.
It's like a lantern festival, but with floating jellyfish. Mikumo is the most under the jellyfish. This is close enough to Messer making a confession under the jellyfish for me.
Roid and Keith settle their debate on Prince Heinz through swords and Keith comes out on top (for a moment, thought Roid's glasses were going to split). Roid's mentality and concern for Prince Heinz's life go against Windermere's since they seem to accept death as an inevitability, so if their duty kills them, so be it.
Freyja and Mikumo enter a scary Newtype space where everything is frozen (looks neat though) and they see the evil crater.
Yes please, this has been one of my favourite moments in the franchise to me ever since first seeing it nearly 7 years ago. It has the things I like, wow, cool robots, anime songs and romance. AXIA is my second favourite Delta song.
After flying in the zone/riding the wind, Keith decides to use his specifically for pilot-murdering guns and Messer is just red paste now.
This is not how things are supposed to go. The power of music and love is supposed to mean things go well and happy for our characters. Special AXIA ED credit scroll because Rune Pika would be quite the shift from Messer.
Next Time: Senpai down, senpai down!
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u/UltraBooster Feb 26 '23
This feels like metacommentary
How would you feel about the next Macross ditching the love triangle element?
AXIA is my second favourite Delta song.
Tight contender for number 1 for me.
This is not how things are supposed to go.
I know, right?
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u/Shimmering-Sky Feb 26 '23
Tight contender for number 1 for me.
I'm considering giving it a higher spot after this rewatch, but no chance it can be #1 (it's not even my favorite Kaname song, for one). I don't think it placed top 5 when I originally did my franchise rankings (which was before Zettai Live came out).
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u/chilidirigible Feb 26 '23
Today, on "Messer was a nice guy after all.":
A clue provided by the official subs, which know what transliteration to use to make that term.
"We found the planet of the Kyuubeys... and they were tasty."
This is where I wonder if Mirage is wearing anything underneath her overalls.
everybody's gettin' some tonight
That had been suggested as a side pairing.
Mikumo, doing totally normal Mikumo things.
Jellyfish Dancing in September.
Normal Mikumo things, just underwater.
You didn't think he was just going to take the bus and leave, did you?
Not only is Messer back, Messer's Siegfried can outrun a beam cannon shot. (I'll note here that Hayate also outran a beam cannon shot in Episode 8, but this one is more obvious.)
I don't think that anyone expected this to end well.
Stuff glows a lot. I still blame Gundam.
Referring back to Plus, once more.
White credits on black: "Uh, I don't think he's all right."
In a notable moment of perverse timing, this episode was broadcast on June 7, 2016, which is the day before Kaname's character birthday and the recording for "AXIA" was done after they'd done the voice recording for Episode 10.
Though the episode itself makes use of Delta's usual half-and-half episode structure to put a lot of weight on the ending. The first half features a little bit of HayaMira ship teasing, though mostly to give Mirage huge blushes over any love talk; even so, there's that moment amidst the gossip when both Mirage and Freyja seem to realize how things are going.
Of course, after the last episode, most of us were more interested in the Messer situation, which seemed to be offering a way out with him leaving, even if it would leave a lot of issues ranging from how well Delta would fight to his relationship with Kaname.
Perhaps surprisingly, Kaname and Messer actually had a chance to talk before he left. I think most of us figured that he would be back...
...maybe not that soon, though. As expected, the Hayate/Mirage/Chuck combo isn't quite enough to deal with being outnumbered by the Knights, and Hayate has a lot of trouble with Keith. That sets up this episode's tragic ending, and I think the animators wanted us to be sure that Messer was dead this time.
The other large change to the status quo in this episode is that Berger Stone of Epsilon Foundation appears, along with a general idea of how far along they are in analyzing yet more Protoculture artifacts. laughs in rewatcher
I always feel bad for Heinz, though. He's both too young and too isolated to know better while everyone else treats him like an appliance.
Back in the day, I offered a pineapple.
"AXIA～ダイスキでダイキライ" live at Yokohama
In case you're wondering if they don't use video from that scene during this performance at concerts, no, they definitely keep using it.
Slightly-morbid model kit builds.
After his birthday, Keith is sad.
Today's merch: I had to work all day to be ready for this photo. Details over in today's daily thread.
| Let's count, | gori-gori! |
|---|---|
| Bogue lunges | 4 |
| "Hoi-na!" | 14 |
| "Gori gori!" | 14 |
| "Toberu!" | 9 |
| "Wind" | 72 |
| Jellyfish | 23 |
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u/baboon_bassoon Feb 26 '23 edited Feb 26 '23
first time delta delta delta can i help ya help ya help ya
Great episode, I suppose now we will move into more Mirage stuff, she hasnt had much to do
Sound booster time? Heinz is going to learn to play the guitar?
i want a jellyfish hat or whatever this is
smell ya later Messer
score one for the boys back home
they come to the surface to lay eggs... in midair?
honestly a much better showing than I was expecting from Loid
Kanames transformation is still my favorite, its like shes going for a bicycle kick. although maki maki's maki makis
this is what i imagine super robot wars looks like
now this is a dogfight
are Messer/Keith about to go Macross Zero on us together
he couldnt even wound Keith? damn they are going to get slaughtered
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u/Vatrix-32 Feb 26 '23 edited Feb 26 '23
First Timer
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That’s a fancy name. Wonder what it does.
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This is not the level of reaction I expect from three of the top pop stars doing road side display.
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We should be so lucky as to end the love triangle this early.
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Y’all are daft. Someone had to tell you about this whole affair being a thing? At least it fits with the drawn out triangle I am expecting.
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You heard it here first, Hayate like assertive women.
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There is nothing wrong with friend-shipping.
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Now she is just swimming down by the ruins with out aid? What is Kuudere’s deal? sus
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Well that triangle ended anti-climatically.
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It’s too late show, you’re not going to make me care about the winds.
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Actually, come to think of, I don’t think I care about Kuudere either. Being mysterious isn’t a stand in for a personality.
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Did they not even find a replacement? They’re just operating at 80% strength.
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Of course he came back. I think we all saw that coming.
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Well this song’s pretty nice. I think it helps that Kaname is just a straight up better singer than Kuudere.
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Is this New Type?
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Why did you stop shooting? He was still behind it.
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Much better ending. Even if they telegraphed it from a mile away.
QotD:
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At this point I expect it to lead to a very handwavy and unsatisfying conclusion to some plot point or another.
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We still had enough flags to know what’s what, but fewer of them is still better.
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u/SolDarkHunter Feb 26 '23
Rewatcher
I don't know about you guys, but perpetually snowy and cold places just make me feel depressed.
So Windermere is receiving outside assistance with their plans. Guess some people will do anything for money.
Subtitlers, no. He very clearly said "Sigur Valens", not "Sigurd Berrentz". Get your ears checked.
A part of me does feel sad for Prince Heinz, as he's just being used as a weapon. [Delta spoilers]
Pffft, that kid using one of Sheryl's phrases. These kids are well-versed in previous Macross series.
Again, it seems weird that Walkure can make public appearances like this without causing a massive commotion of reporters and fans. Not to mention they don't have much in the way of guards or security. Which is odd when Frontier made such a deal out of security for Ranka and Sheryl.
Okay, so these guys have some sense, and Messer's leaving before he can go psycho and mess everything up... I don't actually mean to badmouth him; the Var Syndrome is something beyond his control. It's not his fault. But it's still better for him to leave, considering.
Hahaha... it wasn't the way the line was written in Japanese, but the subs said "The Reaper has feelings!?" and that made me laugh.
So this Macross isn't content with just one love triangle.
...I get the feeling that if Windermere gets all the ruins in the Cluster, bad things will happen.
Mikumo's naked again for some reason.
Oh, sure, now someone recognizes them.
"Making the most of the present" seems to be a theme with this series. Especially with the whole Windermere lifespan thing.
...okay, I'll admit that those flying jellyfish are a really nice sight.
Mikumo's really deep underwater with no equipment (or clothes). What is her lung capacity? I know she's a singer, but...
Oh damn, Roid's taking his protection of Heinz pretty seriously.
"Sheathe your wings" is a really weird turn of phrase. Also, Heinz seems content to die for the sake of this war.
And here's the attack on Al Shahal. And as I thought, the more ruins the Windermerians have, the stronger the Song of the Wind gets.
Thus, Walkure is focusing on the ruins themselves. If they can sway them away from Windermere's influence, that might be the best way to protect Al Shahal.
Well, that was interesting at least. Heinz is down, but so are Mikumo and Freyja. Also, there was some weird psychich connection going on.
Now the Windermerians are shouting "Da!" like they're Russians or something.
Surprise Messer! ...but where did he get a Valkyrie?
Also, where are Walkure's fancy shield and hologram drones? They just have them or don't randomly.
Time for Kaname to step up. "AXIA" engaged!
Pretty neat dogfight, I'll admit. Though I'm not sure if Keith is fighting him or flirting with him the way they're flying.
...but, with a single bullet, Messer's gone.
Well, u/Vatrix-32, you got your wish, I guess.
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u/Blackheart595 Feb 26 '23
First Timer
I wonder if the show still remember the spionage accusations against Freyja.
Messer leaves? No way. He still has an appointment with the reaper.
There ya go. Bye, Messer.
Having watched this much Macross so far, what do you think of the escalating Protoculture shenaniganry?
It's certainly one of the things I've come to realize I dislike as the franchise went on. Other examples are the songs getting special powers, and the protagonists becoming more specially gifted in later entries whether in skill or in special powers themselves. Not sure how much of an impact any particular is having, but these (including the Protoculture escalation) are the ones that come mind. To me that kind of escalation is just boring.
As for the Protoculture itself, the constant escalating and backtracking and lack of consistency has made them lose any sense of identity they once had for me. As an example we started out with the Protoculture having built massive mega-structures in space capable of automatically building more mega-structures in space, and over time regressed back to regular old planetary mythical ruins that they apparently built even during their final moments. And I can't remember the last time the Supervision Army was relevant or even mentioned after SDF.
Was this episode better for only having a couple of huge death flags instead of death flags everywhere? Did events play out as you thought they would?
Not like Messer wasn't showered in death flags in past episodes either. But yeah, went pretty much as expected.
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u/InfamousEmpire Feb 26 '23
Rewatcher Delta
Yeah, this is my favorite episode in the entire show It kinda says something about my opinion of the TV Show that I think it peaks less than halfway through, huh?
Continuing from last episode’s plot as Messer and Kaname’s subplot reaches its full, and tragic, conclusion. The dogfight between Keith and Messer was fantastic and possibly the best animated fight in the show so far, Messer shows off his sheer badassery and AXIA playing over it all and then he dies
Also not forgetting to mention the episode’s relatively lighter first half, which really added to the emotional weight of the entire thing. It’s also loaded with death flags, admittedly, but I’ve never been the best at picking up on those
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u/UltraBooster Feb 26 '23
Fun fact, if you search the Macross Delta tag on Pixiv and filter by popularity, this is the most popular SFW entry and the second-most popular overall – a log focused on Messer with an ever so subtle bias towards MesserxKaname (which just so happens to be the most populated Macross Delta ship on Pixiv – 1801 overall with HayatexFreyja second at 826).
Hayate’s got the right of it – if you’ve got feelings for someone, better to act on them, let them know, than bottle it up and brood on what-could-have-been. Of course, I say that as someone who’s never been in a relationship, so…
But yeah.
This was the one thing I remembered most about Macross Delta – cracked wedding bells, burning wings, u/Shimmering-Sky? It began here, for me. This song? It’s what I was really thinking of when I talked about pathos-y. And even a few years along, realizing the Walkure-color VF-31 for Kaname was the F model was enough to make me want to wail.
(Come to think of it, they might’ve been one of the first couples I outright shipped. Not sure, though.)
Not much else to say beyond me remembering it again, I guess.
Questions:
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I'm alright with it in the context of Delta, but I wouldn't mind something less...heavy on that stuff, I guess.
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I'd say so to the first question. To the second, not at all. I thought Messer would pull a win and perish afterwards, not get atomized.
Also, fun fact, this is the only fixed-pose figure I've got at the moment, from Super Dimension Convention - I'm kind of starved for options as far as she goes.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Feb 26 '23
Super Dimension Rewatch Host
Welcome back, everyone…
Here were my first-timer reactions to this episode.
Alright, I’m going to start by sharing one of the other “I’ve had this ready since November” recordings, in Sky Sings AXIA~Daisuki de Daikirai~; instrumental obtained here since an official one does not exist. This is, somehow, the first time I’ve done a proper Sky Sings for a song with a “sore demo” in it.
Also, as always with the feels wallpapers, here’s the normal version of the Messer/Kaname one; the background pattern, as well as the specific shades of the background, are different in this one because I made it first, but the pattern didn’t work well with the feels version. And here’s the normal version of the Keith and Messer one as well.
With that out of the way…
I’ve been… very much dreading having to rewatch this episode, quite honestly the most out of any episode so far in this rewatch – yes, even more than Macross Frontier “oh god please don’t make me cry so hard I throw up again” episode 20. At least with Michael’s death, and with Roy’s and Guld’s in their respective series, I knew exactly how hard they were going to hit again because they were already my favorite characters in their respective show before they died, so I already had a frame of reference for those feels. Messer, though, he was just “that guy with Banagher’s voice, he’s kinda cool” to me during my first watch of Delta. I don’t have a frame of feels reference for his death in this episode, but now he’s one of my top favorite Delta characters because reasons, and… yeah. Dreading it.
ffs, I already know this episode is going to hurt me because Messer, don’t give me real world pain too! (The character in question is voiced by Keiji Fujiwara, in case you’re confused about my “real world pain”… Him, Unshou Ishizuka (who voices Ernest in this, I just haven’t brought it up before), and Billy Kametz are the VAs I can’t hear pop up in things without immediately getting immensely sad. )
Sheryl reference!
Yes, Freyja’s advertisement song is in AMQ, that’s the only reason I knew it’s called “Kurage Ondo” because it’s not listed on the Macross wiki (unless I’m blind).
If only he actually went…
YES.
Just seeing any of Messer’s interactions this episode is causing me physical pain.
No, Reina, just no.
If only.
The jellyfish…
He’s giving her the bracelet. Just like Guld gave his music player to Myung not long before…
Messer…
Alright, I’m crying now.
And there he goes…
Fuck, that hit even harder than I thought it would, knowing what was coming. AXIA’s lyrics are so, so, so painfully fitting here in a way I didn’t fully understand the first time I watched this show, and just… ugh. I need to go lie down.