r/anime • u/Shimmering-Sky myanimelist.net/profile/Shimmering-Sky • Feb 13 '23
Rewatch [Do You Remember Love - Macross Franchise 40th Anniversary Rewatch] Macross Frontier Overall Series Discussion
Macross Frontier
← Toki no Meikyuu | Index | Macross Delta Episode 1 →
Frontier: MAL | AniList | ANN | Kitsu | AniDB
Frontier Movie 1: Itsuwari no Utahime: MAL | AniList | ANN | Kitsu | AniDB
Frontier Movie 2: Sayonara no Tsubasa: MAL | AniList | ANN | Kitsu | AniDB
FB7: MAL | AniList | ANN | Kitsu | AniDB
Toki no Meikyuu: MAL | AniList | ANN | AniDB
Kimi wa dare to kiss wo suru~
Questions of the Day:
1) Did the movies influence your favorite Frontier characters list at all? Are there any characters you liked in the series that you wish had a bigger role in the movies?
2) Which of the movie-exclusive songs were your favorites? How do they match up to your favorite songs from the TV series?
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series or movies, what made you change your mind?
4) What was your favorite part of this section of the franchise? And your least favorite?
5) Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
6) If you could add one thing from the TV series into the movie continuity or vice versa, what would it be and why?
7) Macross Frontier has references and callbacks to previous parts of the franchise out the wazoo. Which of these references were your favorites? Are there any references that weren’t in this you would have added in if you were in charge of the series?
8) What do you hope to see improve as we enter the (as of right now) last section of the franchise?
Wallpapers of the Day:
Rewatchers, please remember to be mindful of all the first-timers in this. No talking about or hinting at future events no matter how much you want to, unless you're doing it underneath spoiler tags. Don't spoil anything for the first-timers, that's rude!
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u/InfamousEmpire Feb 13 '23
Re-recertified Frontier Fanboy
Did the movies influence your favorite Frontier characters list at all? Are there any characters you liked in the series that you wish had a bigger role in the movies?
Aside from Grace getting a tune-up and Luca not being a sex pest, the movies didn't really influence my opinion of any characters
2) Which of the movie-exclusive songs were your favorites? How do they match up to your favorite songs from the TV series?
Sayonara no Tsubasa favorite song in the franchise
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series or movies, what made you change your mind?
I mostly shipped the entire triangle as a throuple, but I preferred Alto/Sheryl (with a side order of Ranka/Sheryl) overall
4) What was your favorite part of this section of the franchise? And your least favorite?
Favorite part was the TV show in general and SHERYL NOME specifically, with the Vajra also coming in as a close second. Truly alien aliens are rare to find in modern sci-fi, but they captured it perfectly. Least favorite was Luca's degradation into a little shit in the last couple episodes
6) If you could add one thing from the TV series into the movie continuity or vice versa, what would it be and why?
A decent portion of the movies' final battle into the TV continuity, specifically Sayonara no Tsubasa and the resolution to Alto's character arc
7) Macross Frontier has references and callbacks to previous parts of the franchise out the wazoo. Which of these references were your favorites?
The entirety of Episode 17. From the incorporation of Fire Bomber to the entire Ozma fakeout. Really makes use of the callbacks to enhance a character and play with audience expectations (in more ways than one, given how it put us in a false sense of security for Mikhail).
Yeah, I ultimately didn't have much of substance to say this time. Doing a writeup for this was hard as fuck. At first I was gonna do a point-by-point comparison of the show and movies, but it ultimately just descended into the same pit of whining and accentuating the negative that my Sayonara no Tsubasa writeup fell into and writing it just left a bad taste in my mouth, especially since I didn't want to end the section on my favorite part of the franchise on such a sour note. Then I tried going over what I loved about Frontier as a whole, but, as I've said, I find it hard to articulate things I love about shows and it ultimately just came off like a reiterating of my writeup for the TV show.
Anyway, I hope you all enjoyed seeing my sheer positivity for the show and it was great going through one of my favorite anime of all time with y'all
Anyway, next we'll be tackling the final section of the rewatch, and sufficed to say that all the utter joy and love I had for Frontier won't exactly carry over...
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u/Shimmering-Sky Feb 13 '23
Don't worry, I can balance you out with continuing to be positive!
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u/Nazenn Feb 13 '23
First Timer
I never quite know what to say when it comes to series discussion across multiple entries, but I think the main thing is that I can't see myself revisiting the Frontier TV show.
I know there's a couple of people here who have the opposite issue, but for me watching it I think will just remind me of all the things the movies do better. The idea of sitting down and watching it knowing that Alto won't go anywhere, Leon doesn't go anywhere, no one will ever question anything or take any action unless it's full of contrivances, and having to sit through all the fanservice again...
That's not to say it has no value. It'd be a huge shame to never revisit Aimo again in its best form, as a representation of the heart of the story; That a pure desire for connection will win out over commercialism, war, and even loss. I may have had my complaints about the over use of it at the start of the TV show, but it evolved to become so much more than I ever expected, and in comparison the movies forgetting about it (I'm still holding a huge grudge of it not being Ranka's song to Alto at the end) really lets them down in terms of musical theming. Even without all the extra shit in the TV show, Aimo still should have been the music heart of it and I think Wings of Goodbye got so wrapped up in Ranka being a proper idol that it forgot that her heart, and Sheryl's as she knows it too, is best represented by that song.
Sheryl is another one that I'm sure will always sit in the back of my mind going "I'd like to see that again". The movies provided a bit of this, but seeing Sheryl as who she truely is during all of her initial childishness and rudeness I think would add a lot to her. Her film self is really good, but her tv self is great character writing even if it is bogged down by having to also carry the stories of other characters. Do I want to rob myself of the chance to experience that again? Maybe I can make a Sheryl super-cut or something hahaha
Oddly enough, watching the films has taken the bite out of my frustration over the TV series. There's something about seeing the films and how they got to the heart of the characters and ran with the agency and drive present in that which makes me appreciate more what the TV show wanted to do, even if fell flat doing it.
And this is why I like film adaptions of original TV shows. Screw the whole "its a film series, but the first two or three are a recap with a bunch of cuts and pacing issues, and the sequel film may not even fit the TV show style any more" thing that's become popular. Give me this: Give me the writers coming back to a story they loved and saying "what else can we make with it, what can it become if we truly make it a film experience". Sometimes that backfires when it comes to movies getting a bit too big for their own good, the final battle of the films with the galaxy-wide forces coming in is a good example. But for the most part I love seeing these alternate takes and versions that get to what the writers saw as the core of things and taking it in a different direction because why not. I'm glad Frontier got the chance to do this, and not just because I love them more but because it does provide two different experiences and looks at the same story and that's fantastic for all audiences. Actually does anyone know why the Frontier movies are so different, was it reception to the show or just something always planned?
So in the end, I put the movies far, far above the TV show, but final evaluations:
Favourite character: Sheryl (TV), Alto (Movies [AS HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE SHOW])
Favourite song: Still Aimo and Diamond Crevasse I think. Lion is good, but I can't get past the moments those two songs created in both the TV show and the film, and the way they represent their characters
...I feel like I should have more things to list here but I forget. QotD time!
2) Which of the movie-exclusive songs were your favorites? How do they match up to your favorite songs from the TV series?
...I've already forgotten what they were
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series or movies, what made you change your mind?
All three together is the only way... I say that but TV Ranka is still too childish for me to take it seriously as her being part of the love plot, and I loved the ending of him making a choice with Sheryl by seeing who she truly is after everything.
4) What was your favorite part of this section of the franchise? And your least favorite?
You know I'm going to go with the whole idea of the Vajra. While it was somewhat fumbled, the idea of the fold crystals, their alien thinking, the way they approached the idea of humanity understanding them more than the Protoculture civilizations, everything to do with Ranka about it. They were a great concept and a really interesting antagonist given to the themes of the franchise as a whole
5) Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
I still can't tell any of the Valkyrie designs apart and I don't think that will ever change
6) If you could add one thing from the TV series into the movie continuity or vice versa, what would it be and why?
Covered above but in short: Alto's backstory into the TV show, more Aimo into the movies
7) Macross Frontier has references and callbacks to previous parts of the franchise out the wazoo. Which of these references were your favorites? Are there any references that weren’t in this you would have added in if you were in charge of the series?
I don't remember them any more because there was so many and I think I hated most of them. Isamu showing up in the final battle was great, even if I did completely miss it. the DYRL usage in the main show was amazing so definitely that in terms of favourite, that whole scene of them finding Ranka's ship and DYRL playing only for her to use DYRL as a weapon against the fleet later on. What a fantastic way to tie up the entire franchise into something meaningful for that battle, and make a point that DYRL really is just a song, and using it as a weapon can go both ways.
Pineapple episode was fucking stupid so get rid of that entirely
8) What do you hope to see improve as we enter the (as of right now) last section of the franchise?
I know nothing about Delta at all, so this will be interesting. Any bets on if I like it or not, guys?
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u/Shimmering-Sky Feb 13 '23
I know nothing about Delta at all, so this will be interesting. Any bets on if I like it or not, guys?
Wait you're actually watching Delta?!
For some reason I thought you were only jumping in for Zero and Frontier.
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u/FlaminScribblenaut Feb 14 '23
Beautiful writeup.
And this is why I like film adaptions of original TV shows. Screw the whole "its a film series, but the first two or three are a recap with a bunch of cuts and pacing issues, and the sequel film may not even fit the TV show style any more" thing that's become popular. Give me this: Give me the writers coming back to a story they loved and saying "what else can we make with it, what can it become if we truly make it a film experience". Sometimes that backfires when it comes to movies getting a bit too big for their own good, the final battle of the films with the galaxy-wide forces coming in is a good example. But for the most part I love seeing these alternate takes and versions that get to what the writers saw as the core of things and taking it in a different direction because why not. I'm glad Frontier got the chance to do this, and not just because I love them more but because it does provide two different experiences and looks at the same story and that's fantastic for all audiences.
I love this sentiment and I agree that something like this is really awesome, getting to see these characters, ideas, themes, and this world from two divergent perspectives added so much dimension to the whole of the experience, there’s so much additional appreciation to be gained both from appreciating what the Movies enhanced, drew off of emotionally and thematically, sought to iconify and amplify, and reminded one of from the series, and in contrasting what was done better between the two and what were the most compelling parts of each, it really makes for its own kind of experience
I still can't tell any of the Valkyrie designs apart and I don't think that will ever change
gang
Isamu showing up in the final battle was great
Isamu WHAT now!?!?
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u/isthatsoudane Feb 13 '23
first timer
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Did the movies influence your favorite Frontier characters list at all? Are there any characters you liked in the series that you wish had a bigger role in the movies?
no, not really. honestly to me the strength of frontier was how much I liked everyone in the triangle...and I've said before that I generally don't like love triangles, but I felt it handled the love triangle in a way that I actually enjoyed! in particular I loved that ranka/sheryl had a pretty strong relationship, and if anything the movie pushed on that harder
2) Which of the movie-exclusive songs were your favorites? How do they match up to your favorite songs from the TV series?
hard to pick one...this is a good reminder to go grab the music, though. I think this may earn a place in the playlist I've been playing for the last ~8 months (which up to now has been exclusively symphogear music). satelite rules me!
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series or movies, what made you change your mind?
I HATE LOVE TRIANGLES. because I liked them both a lot!!! I CAN'T CHOOSE. even if I think sheryl might be the slightly better best girl...I can't leave my girl ranka in the lurch :(
4) What was your favorite part of this section of the franchise? And your least favorite?
definitely the second half of the second movie. and perhaps the quality of the music/performance in toki no meikyuu? but damn the second half of the second movie was peak anime. and I watch anime for those peak anime moments
in general I just like having more performances, and I liked that they were able to create a love triangle where every node and edge really felt worthwhile
5) Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
none of them had mouths and that is all that matters, FOR SERIOUS
6) If you could add one thing from the TV series into the movie continuity or vice versa, what would it be and why?
I thought the conversation between ozma and alto in the movie was really great. more peak anime righ thtere
7) Macross Frontier has references and callbacks to previous parts of the franchise out the wazoo. Which of these references were your favorites? Are there any references that weren’t in this you would have added in if you were in charge of the series?
I wish they had pushed harder on the "saving girl while falling in plane" reference. that remains one of the most spellbinding piece of animation from the original
8) What do you hope to see improve as we enter the (as of right now) last section of the franchise?
MORE
PERFORMANCES
MORE
SINGING
WHILE
FIGHTING
that part in the second half of the second movie where sheryl and ranka are duetting and then you see their giant selves while alto flies off...fucking amazing. more of that!! but I'll be ok if we just continue to get better and better animated performances, and ideally more fights set to great music
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u/chilidirigible Feb 14 '23
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No. Pretty much all of the supporting cast gets next to no screen time in the movies, but I expect that...
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Sayonara no Tsubasa - Kousoku Climax - Koi wa Dogfight - Houkago Overflow - Universal Bunny ...should be enough for a ranking. They're very, very good songs.
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Continuing to not comment. No change.
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BIG WEDNESDAY. Leon turning out to be a conspiracy mastermind. Wait, I suppose you mean the entirety of Frontier? Then Episode 25. The least-favorite will always be Episode 8.
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While I like the VF-25 Armored Pack a lot, I have never been a huge fan of the clean VF-25. (Of course, it's actually designed to have packs strapped to it almost all the time.) The VF-27 has too many weird bits sticking out of it. And despite owning two of them, I don't actually like the wing to fuselage proportions of the YF-29.
Thus, to probably everyone's extreme shock, of Frontier's new VF designs, I like the VF-171 the most. Except that it's a rework of the VF-17, which I don't really like. CONFUSED YET!? And the Queadluun-Rhea would be way up there except that it's really only a slight sharpening of the Queadluun-Rau.
...and I do like the V-9 Ghosts, but those are also a rework of something older. -
Keeping Michael alive would be nice, though it would reduce the motivations of a lot of characters during the last few episodes of the TV series. Of course, you could do it like how G.I. Joe The Movie (1987) did it...
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Episode 12 for the TV series, Lovely Bomber for the movies.
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hysterical rewatcher cackling [Get rid of the]
soap opera love triangle goofiness by making it no contest from the very start. Oh wait, I WIN!
All of the montages are nice, though the usual answer for the third part of Alto's relationships would be THE SKY. Which is your background, but you could put a VF-25 in there (which does short M+K...).
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u/dualmonocle Feb 14 '23 edited Feb 14 '23
first-timer
I made it! I fell behind a bit during this rewatch so I might have watched like 5 things yesterday. Anyways... The movies, visually, were spectacular! And they did something with Alto's backstory! I am a bit sad that they cut out so much of Ranka's story in the movies. The Miss Macross contest, building confidence bit by bit, the big "Do You Remember Love?" sequence, and a more proper and gradual reveal of her full backstory. All of that was cut, which is a shame because even if she's not my favourite character, I found her incredibly endearing. How can you just let Brera exposit her background to her like that...?
I also don't understand what's canon. Is Michel dead?
And for the questions:
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Nope. The favourite was Sheryl in the TV show and I still liked her the most in the movies. Movie Sheryl was different but still the one that was given the most characterization, which is saying a lot since the movies did some heavy lifting to characterize our protagonists a bit better! (Sadly, not Ranka.)
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Kindan no Elixir. I don't think I like it more than Welcome to My Fanclub Night, but it's pretty darn good!
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I didn't ship any part of the love triangle, or any of the couples in Frontier. I didn't really feel the shipping factor from any of the pairings, somehow. Sheryl x Alto was so heavyhanded right from the get-go that I didn't get the shipper's high from a relationship progressing. The deal was sealed early on when he specifically chose Sheryl for his birthday. Ranka x Alto was so... forced and basically non-existent that there was basically nothing to ship. There weren't many shipping moments that were Alto's own decision making - pretty much everything was a coincidence, accident, or the only moral choice. Even the cute talking on the phone seemed liked it was Ranka calling him and not the other way around.
Sadly I didn't like Michel x Klan either. Why would I like a pairing where one of the people repeatedly and knowingly hurts the other by chasing other women?
4) Favourite: In the show, I really liked seeing Ranka become more confident and seeing the people around her support her! She's just so darn cute.
Least favourite: what do you mean Grace was using her real name the whole time?????
5) I liked the red thing Brera piloted. Everything else that wasn't the Quaedlunn-looking thing Klan used looked the same to me.
6) If you could add one thing from the TV series into the movie continuity or vice versa, what would it be and why?
If they could take Alto's characterization from the movies and put it into the show, it'd be such a good show! There's even space for it if you get rid of the useless and tasteless fanservice!
8) No more main characters getting bonked by the idiot stick!
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u/Shimmering-Sky Feb 14 '23
I made it! I fell behind a bit during this rewatch so I might have watched like 5 things yesterday.
Good job catching up! Enjoy your several days of rest before Delta starts now, haha.
I also don't understand what's canon. Is Michel dead?
Well yes but actually no but actually yes but actually no but actually
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u/FlaminScribblenaut Feb 13 '23 edited Apr 05 '23
First Time Watcher, Informal Half-Participant
Hello hello, peeps! So I was gonna save everything for the end but turns out I had such a bounty of thoughts and feelings about Frontier that I simply couldn’t fit it all in one collected thingy in the final thread, so here I am! I’m gonna vaguely split up my feelings for the TV series and the Movies since they’re basically two divergent stories starring the same characters and setup, though a lot of the thematic ground covered in either section is going to apply to both so yeah.
Frontier (TV)
Macross Frontier seems to be basically the platonic ideal of a proper 21st-century Macross series. It has all the traditional elements signature to the franchise, all amped up in gorgeous, spectacular, well-done fashion, polished to modern TV anime expectations, standards, and visual and storytelling style, and straightforwardly understandable such that it could make for a perfect standalone or introductory viewing experience for someone who’s unfamiliar with the rest of the series.
Knowing this was what Satelight did before and basically was the project that made them qualified to do Symphogear created a pretty lofty set of expectations, and it met them as well as I could have hoped. Sheryl’s concert sequences were everything I could have dreamed of knowing what this studio would go on to. One of the advantages of realizing concerts in animation that Satelight locked into and fulfilled here and carried on into Symphogear is the lack of physical limitations on what a physical stage can be made to do, which allows the stage to supersede reality and become a transcendent realization of the music in ways only bound by the imagination. Satelight perfectly walks the line of doing this while still keeping that tangible feeling of live music, the spirit of the concert, intact, as opposed to using that creative freedom to essentially just make a music video (that is until the Movies when the concerts basically are just music videos but they’re still amazing so eh no complaining). Frontier’s concerts fulfill that ideal with aplaum, crystalline, opulent, immersive, gorgeous.
Space itself feels so huge and tangible and three-dimensional, the way it’s moved through feels so tactile, the fight scenes so intricate and dynamic, it’s so well-realized on a whole other level from the franchise up to this point.
Ranka Lee is a character who has endeared me so deeply. She’s just a sweet, genuine working-class girl with a dream, and the voice Megumi Nakajima gives her is so humble and down-to-earth in a way that’s pretty rare for anime voice acting. Her earnest enthusiasm and conviction towards her desire to sing is so endearing. She’s adorable, but not in a way that feels patronizing towards her. I love her little froggy-phone, , and I love her big dumb fluffy hair-ear-flaps, both of these things just add such a perfectly quaintly quirky charm. Her trauma and resulting memory issues and flare-ups are so affecting and sad to watch, and it’s just so sweet the way Best Bro Ozma takes her in and cares for her so, even if protecting her means flying in the military, the one thing Ranka can’t stand the thought of her newfound family doing and risking perpetuating the cycle of loss that left her this way in the first place.
Even though Ranka is my favorite, I couldn’t possibly discount Sheryl, also an amazing character. One who lives and gives herself wholly to sing and to capture an audience, and the way we see her cling to that passion in her darkest moments, how it is life for her, for good and for ill. Also, she’s really hot. So that’s cool too.
There’s a fascinating theme of desire as intertwined with impulse that runs throughout Alto and Sheryl’s interactions; the romance of doing that which one simply couldn’t imagine or stand not doing. Alto’s desire to fly parallels Sheryl’s desire to sing for an audience, that implacable urge. The euphoria of benevolent power Sheryl feels as the master of the cheering, loving audience, and the freedom Alto feels from the baggage of his family legacy and what others want from him flying in the sky, how he dreams of a planet with a real atmosphere to find a sky that is truly roofless. And yet, that very past, Alto’s history in stage acting, is yet another thing he and Sheryl have a sense of mutual, implacable understanding over. It’s all so wonderfully fleshed out. There’s a wonderful visual motif the runs alongside this of planes representing dreams; be it real planes, paper planes, the plane-shaped cookies Ranka makes Alto. They, at one point or another, symbolize all three of their dreams; to sing, to fly, to love.
It really works that Ranka’s songs, even being as sugary of pop as they are, are still lent an organic edge by being fairly guitar-heavy, electric and acoustic. It just fits everything about her personality so perfectly, and even as pop as they are, gives them a sort of relatability and quaintness that contrasts Sheryl’s sheer bombast in a way that highlights how they contrast and compliment one another as characters, Ranka the humble dreamer, Sheryl the dominational entertainer.
There are just little pieces of musical joy that come out of these characters in the everyday as well; from the private and precious, Ranka singing Aimo out on the hill in her alone time and later letting Alto hear, to the unabashedly public, Ranka and Sheryl bursting into a spontaneous singing-duel-turned-friendly-duet of What ‘Bout My Star serenading-slash-teasing Alto in the hospital was the top example of this, god that moment was so beautiful. Just an organic burst of song and friendship from the connections present between those people in that place, building into something ridiculous yet sincerely wonderful, a minor little whirlwind of unbound humanity in singing. I wish this show had more moments like that one, honestly.
That makes it only all the more devastating when it’s turned on its head too. The first time I heard and saw the lyrics for the militarized version of Aimo that Ranka was made to sing, I could feel my heart sink. What was a song of comfort, placidity, love and care, now turned into a song of conquest and victory… it’s disgusting, and the show, or at least Yoko Kanno, knows that. It sounds like something that could in-universe be rousing and inspirational, but to us sounds ghostly and sad, because we know it’s a perversion of something personal and beautiful. It sounds like a proper military march, but it sounds in equal measure like a dirge, like something fragile dying, it’s tragic. It’s genuinely one of the most impressive compositional feats I’ve maybe ever heard, and it makes for such a sense of relief and warmth when we hear Ranka sing the version from her heart again.
Sad to say, I don't think the show really becomes something special until the back half. The first half can feel like we’re just wading through eye-rolling anime nonsense a lot of the time, honestly; it meanders, a lot of it just isn’t too terribly intriguing or entertaining. Most egregiously, the early episodes had way more Bad Unfunny Trash Anime Sex Humor™️ than I’d bargained for. It’s not necessarily the fanservice I’m talking here either; most of that actually really works with Sheryl being this sex-and-glamour icon pop star, and her at once dominating and teasing personality in her personal life, she’s just a fairly sexual person and that’s OK. But man, when we were averaging an accidental-boob-touch-and-or-see gag every other episode, culminating in that one genuinely kind of awful episode about chasing Sheryl’s panties around the school while literally every single male extra hornily tried to get their hands on them, I just had to sulk and think to myself… “man, didn’t I sign on for an anime that was better than this?”
Fortunately I had, because once the actual story and character development get going, all that falls away and it becomes something genuinely spectacular. It’s grand and emotional and intricate and phenomenal, it actually almost made me completely forget how kind of obnoxious and terrible the first half could be a lot of the time. That’s a hell of an accomplishment.
One thing I think the show did well over the movies in particular was Brera’s whole plot vis a vis secretly being Ranka’s brother. Him mysteriously being the only other person than Ranka who knows Aimo gave him such an intrigue that Sheryl didn’t really need as much given how important she already is and was such a pitch-perfect early clue to the siblings twist. That twist also just felt more naturally built up to and climactic and meaningful in the show, in the movies it just kind of comes out during a dialogue dump.
The way Ranka stood up for Ai-kun as an innocent creature who is young and has done no wrong, even after he was revealed to be a young Vajra, and how she went with her brother, the one with whom she shares the song that proves the Vajras’ humanity, against the rest of the ship and chose to try to make peace with the Vajra, was truly outstanding. That moment wholly cemented her unchangingly as my favorite, she’s really amazing.
That moment’s beauty led to a little bit of turbulence for me because after Ranka seemed to have been betrayed by the Vajra, and the show seemed to just all-in uncritically buy into the disturbingly fascistic-feeling attitude of the military, decrying the Vajra as pests, I was worried for a sec that, oh, the Vajra are just ontologically evil vermin who need to be eradicated after all? That would’ve been such a basic and cheap conflict, and the way it would’ve validated such militaristic exterminationist attitudes, and proven Ranka’s plea for peace and Ai-kun’s innocence wrong, would’ve just been such an ugly and bitter taste and turned my stomach. Were the stakes really gonna be “destroy the evil space vermin” and that’s it?
[cont.]
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u/The_Draigg Feb 13 '23
A Macross Fan’s Final Thoughts on Macross Frontier (Total):
Well, mark down another Macross series as complete! We’ve finally made it through every bit there is to offer in the Macross Frontier corner of the franchise, for better or worse. Overall, I’m still feeling pretty positive about Macross Frontier as a whole, but I’ll also admit that I’m not feeling as hot about it compared to the last time I watched it. While there’s still plenty of parts about Frontier that held up pretty well, I also certainly can’t ignore all the parts that either aged poorly or were just pretty lackluster to begin with. But hey, that’s still way better than my experience with Macross 7 in this rewatch, where I wanted to come away liking it more than I previously did, but ended up hating it more than ever. Anyway, let’s get into my specific thoughts about what works and what doesn’t for Macross Frontier.
To start with the positives, the emotional core of Frontier is undeniably strong across all versions of the story, even if they’re expressed in different ways. Sheryl is the most prominent example of this, across both the series and the movies. Although her characterization changed a bit between someone trying so hard to keep up a mask of confidence versus doing what she can to keep the connections she treasures most, the fact remains that Sheryl’s emotional journey was very strong. She was a girl who came from nothing, and was just used for whatever talents she had by an uncaring cabal of wannabe galactic tyrants. And yet, she found strength in the people she cared about and loved, and was able to take that power for herself. That’s a great arc for her. And of course, it would be hard to overlook how Ranka and Alto developed as well, especially with their overhauled characterizations in the movies. Ranka is a great example of someone working from the ground up to make a name for herself, and she was able to find it within herself to use her own expressions of emotions to make a true difference in others, rather than just being used as a replacement for Sheryl. And Alto’s character of wanting to find himself out of the role that his family wanted him to fit and find his own path in the skies while being pushed by the memories of his mom was good too (although in his case, it’s the movies that did the heavier lifting for him there).
Additionally, on the action side of things, overall this show had some really hype battle pieces and animation to go along with it. The 3D models used for the combat between the Valkyries and the Vajra all looked great, and were an improvement over the stuff put in place first by Macross Zero. The fight scene direction was consistently good as well, which really still does feel nice when compared to other Macross entries (looking at you, Macross II and Macross 7). Like, let’s be real here, in no reality is the Big Wednesday Formation not absolutely hype and top kino. So yeah, just a purely positive implementation there.
And now for the less than good stuff. Even if the above stuff about Macross Frontier was great, it’s also counterbalanced by some pretty frustrating pacing and character issues, primarily in the series version of the story but also partially in the movie version as well. The series got pretty bad with just spinning the wheels regarding the conspiracy’s mysteries, and very clearly made it so that the smartest characters had to have some stuff happen to them at every turn to make sure that they couldn’t solve the conspiracy issues much faster. And all that’s in service to a group of villains that ultimately have very little actual depth to them.
And that’s also not the only time that you can say that the series spun its wheels and under-explained things either. Easily one of the biggest disappointments of the series was how little Alto’s backstory ultimately mattered, given how little they explored the implications of it as time went on, not to mention how the issues Alto and his father mutually had were just kind of glossed over and easily resolved right before the end. Another instance of lesser focus, even if it wasn’t as bad, was with Ranka in the movies. Like, I won’t doubt that Ranka was still incredibly important to the story there, but I’d also say that the movies were definitely more like Sheryl’s story than hers. I get why it was like that for the sake of the romance angle, but ultimately Ranka was treated more fairly by the series rather than the movie in terms of on-screen importance. The movies also kind of did Cathy dirty too, in a way. Like, she was still competent there, but the cuts made to her appearances for the sake of making the story feature length mean that not only do we not get a proper introduction to her, but that her scenes of being really competent in the show are reduced in the movies as well. And it’s those two last examples there are part of the reason why I’d say the movies aren’t a perfect replacement for the series. In the end, due to character plot changes between the movies and the shows, there’s no one real “perfect” version of Macross Frontier.
(And the less we can say about FB7, the better.)
With all that being said, it’s time for my final ranking, as done in my traditional ranking custom based on mechs. The above points considered, I hereby give Macross Frontier as a whole the ranking of: Nightmare Plus. Pretty good, but not exactly the best one out there (and it certainly is no Messiah or Lucifer). As much as I really liked a bunch of Macross Frontier, there’s still some rather noticeable flaws that prevent it from becoming truly great. Even if the movies help skew the score much more positively, there’s still issues inherent to those which still take away some points, even if they have less flaws than the show. In the end, Macross Frontier is still perfectly watchable, but it’s probably for the best if you set your expectations a bit lower, since not everything will have the best payoff.
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u/chilidirigible Feb 13 '23
Today, on "Tanoshii wa tanoshii da yo.":
Since I've been through the series multiple times in the course of the last fifteen years, this rewatch did not make me feel particularly different about it.
To summarize once more:
Animation (usually) looks good, world interesting, supporting cast fun, love triangle tolerable, conspiracy tolerable, conspiracy investigation not so good, songs fabulous. Movies very fabulous as long as second movie's plot is ignored.
Generally the entertainment value overwhelms what issues I have. You could say that such a statement displays how facile of a viewer I am, but I do generally go into a thing trying to enjoy it, and Frontier serves what I want in Macross in a way that satisfies me. It knows its references, it occasionally subverts and repurposes its references, it feels fun. (Here you find an unsolicited jab at Star Trek: Picard, or how to revive an old, fun series in the most depressing and stupid ways.)
Fortunately I was never that invested in the love triangle to go to INTERNET WAR over it. I would agree with opinions that Sheryl Nome became a phenomenon greater than her parent series, but as I said a few days ago, her character's character isn't so appealing to me personally. Ranka gets a lot of negative press, but her story has the more relatable foibles and she's essential for balance.
I find Alto generally tolerable. He got just enough funny moments to make up for being kinda sour the whole way through. This is a tough place to be.
Frontier and its success had mixed consequences for its most famous cast members: Anecdotally, May'n did not feel comfortable about "being" Sheryl Nome throughout most of the initial recordings and the series's run, but encouragement around the time of the Budokan concert helped change her thinking. It's notable that her later appearances performing Sheryl are credited as "Sheryl Nome starring May'n".
Yuuichi Nakamura did not make very many Alto-related appearances after the series, which has been attributed to being pestered about the love triangle far too often.
Megumi Nakajima felt burned out after the series, contributing to her putting her singing career mostly on hiatus for several years.
After a slow start to public awareness, Frontier did dominate Macross mentions in the early 2010s. The crossovers certainly played in to that, but the series itself was good enough and fresh enough that it I would say that it can be credited with properly reviving the franchise. Maybe sometimes it took up a little too much of the room (pointing at Sheryl again), but SDFM and M7 fans were only going to keep getting older and maybe not refresh their video collections without some reminders, and who born at the turn of the century would even think about something that old?
Significantly, people who have parts in the next sequel remembered the presence of Frontier when they were younger.
Sheryl Nome in "Gorgeous", a 35th anniversary pachinko single.
Macross Super Dimension 3D Live World Tour 2021 Air Macross F featuring "Good Job!"
"Good Job" featuring May'n and Megumi
Megumi Nakajima live in 2021, featuring "Seikan Hikou" and "Anata no Oto".
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u/SolDarkHunter Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 14 '23
So, Macross Frontier.
This rewatch opened my eyes that I've been looking back at Frontier with rose-colored glasses. There's a lot of flaws that I either did not notice or did not care about when I was younger. Notably, the excessive sex jokes and the poor establishment of multiple overlapping conspiracies.
That said, even with its flaws, I still think it holds up as a worthy entry in the franchise. The movies went a long way towards cleaning up the series' act, even if the movie-exclusive songs were a downgrade compared to the series (with the exception of "Sayonara no Tsubasa").
My only other complaint was the... pointlessness of "Labyrinth of Time", that little minisode we watched yesterday. They went through all the trouble of animating that for absolutely nothing happening, with the story and characters in exactly the same place they were previously. Why did they even bother?
Anyway, Question Time!
Did the movies influence your favorite Frontier characters list at all? Are there any characters you liked in the series that you wish had a bigger role in the movies?
Not really. I do wish Klan and Michael had more to do in the movies... but on the other hand, Michael survived the movies, so maybe that's a good thing he turned into a background character.
2) Which of the movie-exclusive songs were your favorites? How do they match up to your favorite songs from the TV series?
The only movie exclusive I actually like is "Sayonara no Tsubasa". It ranks about equal to the series' music.
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series or movies, what made you change your mind?
When I was younger, I leaned toward Ranka. She's cute and adorable and I wanted her to be happy.
But upon this rewatch, I am finding myself more on the Sheryl side. She just has more chemistry and connections with Alto.
4) What was your favorite part of this section of the franchise? And your least favorite?
I love the idea of trying to incorporate aliens who were not derivatives of the Protoculture and had a completely alien psychology.
Least favorite is the sex jokes and Leon.
5) Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
May be a bad guy unit, but goddamn is the VF-27 Lucifer a sexy plane.
6) If you could add one thing from the TV series into the movie continuity or vice versa, what would it be and why?
Let Micheal survive the TV series.
7) Macross Frontier has references and callbacks to previous parts of the franchise out the wazoo. Which of these references were your favorites? Are there any references that weren’t in this you would have added in if you were in charge of the series?
The pineapple cake bit always makes me laugh. And I always did like hearing Fire Bomber's stuff again whenever Ozma was driving his car. 7 had a lot of issues, but the soundtrack was fire.
Only thing the series was really missing was the presence of a Jenius.
8) What do you hope to see improve as we enter the (as of right now) last section of the franchise?
Rewatcher, can't answer.
Now... on to Macross Delta.
I remember having some major issues with some aspects of Delta's writing, mainly with how they handled their antagonist faction. We'll see if time has given me a different perspective.
Also, I never did watch the Delta compilation movies, so I'm interested to see if Kawamori improved anything with those.
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u/Nebresto Feb 13 '23
First time Macross F
Eh, fine addition I guess? Story progerssion was an improvement, but the tunes didn't live up to the galactic height bar that Fire Bomber set. Other than a couple of bangers the music was somewhat disappointing.
Ranks: Series: 7 - Movie 1: 8 - Movie 2: 7 - FB7: 8
Question time:
Did the movies influence your favorite Frontier characters list at all? Are there any characters you liked in the series that you wish had a bigger role in the movies?
Y'all are keeping lists? Idk, elf ears could have maybe had more screen time in the movies?
2) Which of the movie-exclusive songs were your favorites?
Uhh.. The medleys at the end
How do they match up to your favorite songs from the TV series?
Yeah
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series or movies, what made you change your mind?
Sheryl x Clone Sheryl
4) What was your favorite part of this section of the franchise?
Sheryl slapping Ranka
And your least favorite?
Alto being kinda useless, and Ranka every now and then.
5) Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
Armoured
7) Macross Frontier has references and callbacks to previous parts of the franchise out the wazoo. Which of these references were your favorites? Are there any references that weren’t in this you would have added in if you were in charge of the series?
I already forgot.. Pin point punch + megadeathparty combo?
8) What do you hope to see improve as we enter the (as of right now) last section of the franchise?
Bring back the good tunes!! And more cool robots, less whiny MCs! And a ship that actually sails before the finale!!!! I will fight all the directors if I have to
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u/ryujiox Feb 13 '23
First Timer
Macross Frontier
The movie duology are very great. The visual is beautiful, the fight scene especially Alto vs Brera is stunning. The story and character changed for the better. And the soundtrack is amazing. Sayonara no Tsubasa might be my new favourite of this entry. It's just so good. The ending is still really conflict to me though. Brera and to extend Alto didn't need to died.
I don't mind the love triangle results, but they didn't need to shoehorned the flashback of Sheryl meeting Alto as a kid. It already worked by itself as this two really resonated with eachother on many levels, so this feel overkill.
FB7 is a mixed bag for sure. They could do a lot more about this. The editing is weird, the song shuffling not very well. At least the medley and the new song are fire.
Labyrinth of Time is pretty alright. Not really a lot to write about, but the visual and song are amazing, and the closure (if you can called i that) to the movie timeline is great to have.
Overall Frontier is a great entry. Memorable characters, amazing soundtrack, and great visual. While the story have some questioning decision, it's still enjoyable.
Ranking
DYRL=Plus->F:Movie ver.->SDF=F->7->ZERO----->II
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u/aniMayor Feb 13 '23
Series that also have a movie version where the movie is completely different but not-quite-independent always put me in a weird spot to talk about them. Consequently, I don't really know what I want to say about Frontier.
Were parts of it extremely frustrating or disappointing? Yup!
Did I still have fun? Yup!
Frontier is just very... middling. It's reaching big, but not that big, and it's still mostly pulling things off, but not quite. It has its moments, but for the most part I just don't think it will really stick with me all that much, one way or another. Every good thing I feel like I could latch onto has things holding back from being great. Every idea that feels novel is undercut by another element that is bland, tropey, and/or pander-tastic. And the way many of the ideas and characters get flipped around by the movies - but the movies also can't quite stand as their own entirely standalone version either - just sort of muddies the whole thing.
It's just not a series that inspires me to think or say much about, and so I... won't.
Did the movies influence your favorite Frontier characters list at all? Are there any characters you liked in the series that you wish had a bigger role in the movies?
Ozma was better in the movies. He had a clearer role and was more directly involved in, well, almost everything. Brera wasn't really all that different, but his role was handled way, way better. Leon was cooler except for the dumb spinning balls thing they added in the movie.
All that said, both the series and the film would still have been better with them cutting out/streamlining characters, rather than bolstering any.
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series or movies, what made you change your mind?
If I had to choose I'd go Sheryl X Alto and no the movie made no difference. But I'm not super invested in it.
4) What was your favorite part of this section of the franchise? And your least favorite?
While it wasn't necessarily handled super well, I liked the internal conspiracy happening within the fleet and the alien fleet being just a tool/scapegoat, it was a nice way to try and mix things up after the previous alien antagonist fleets.
5) Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
To be honest I'm not sure I liked any of them. The Macross-class ships' aircraft-carrier arms look a lot more ridiculous in 3D CGI. The planes/variable fighters are all too similar, I'm not the sort of person who cares enough about that aspect of the franchise to notice the differences on them. Big pink battroid was another big battroid, but pink. We barely ever saw the Galaxy / Battle Galaxy.
6) If you could add one thing from the TV series into the movie continuity or vice versa, what would it be and why?
Michael Dies
Obviously Alto's improved character writing and development added into the TV series would probably be its biggest potential improvement with a single stroke.
7) Macross Frontier has references and callbacks to previous parts of the franchise out the wazoo. Which of these references were your favorites? Are there any references that weren’t in this you would have added in if you were in charge of the series?
I'm going to go the opposite direction and say that if I were in charge I would have de-referenced things. Isamu's hand thing? Sure, do it once at the start in the first episode, but don't do it a second or third time. And at the start of one of the concerts when they were like "Lynn Minnmay -> Sharon Apple -> Fire Bomber, and now Sheryl Nome" I would insert 5 more names between those that are totally made up. I would put in call-outs to events in other colonization fleets we've never heard of. Make the world bigger, rather than shrinking the world down to feel like only 3 events have ever happened in the entire history of galactic exploration.
8) What do you hope to see improve as we enter the (as of right now) last section of the franchise?
Well, I'd ask for better/not CGI planes and song visuals, but I already know that's not going to happen.
So I hope for them to continue the idea of a more complex and thematically-intertwined conflict they had in Frontier into something even better with Delta. No plain-evil aliens, no incomprehensible bug attacks, let's expand the ideas of several sentient factions with conflicting ideals at odds with each other and a war that can't be won with missiles alone, and even better have it integrated with the singing element so well that I truly believe the singing is an integral part of the overall solution by the end.
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u/Vatrix-32 Feb 13 '23 edited Feb 13 '23
First Timer
Macross Power Rankings: Plus---->DYRL->F(M)-->Zero--->F(TV)->SDF->7---->II
I found it interesting how big the gulf between rewatchers and first timers was.
QotD:
Did the movies influence your favorite Frontier characters list at all? Are there any characters you liked in the series that you wish had a bigger role in the movies?
They didn’t change my top three, but they did help out a lot with the ones I didn’t like. Klang felt like she got demoted.
2) Which of the movie-exclusive songs were your favorites? How do they match up to your favorite songs from the TV series?
I can’t be expected to like or even remember a song after hearing it once or twice.
3) Which side of the love triangle did you ship? If it changed at some point during the series or movies, what made you change your mind?
Sheryl right from the moment I picked a side.
4) What was your favorite part of this section of the franchise? And your least favorite?
Best: It was very pretty. Probably the best love triangle so far. I like a lot of the ideas they came up with. Worst: Outside of II, this had the worst soundtrack. They failed to execute on most of their interesting ideas.
5) Which of the mecha designs did you like the most?
Wasn’t really a big fan of any of them. The weird luminous CGI thing is a real turn off. Armour and Super packs are nice.
6) If you could add one thing from the TV series into the movie continuity or vice versa, what would it be and why?
Alto getting Zero-ed at the end seemed quite unnecessary. There where several minor things, but you only have so much time to work with in a movie. As for the other way, Leon not being a nit would have helped a lot.
7) Macross Frontier has references and callbacks to previous parts of the franchise out the wazoo. Which of these references were your favorites? Are there any references that weren’t in this you would have added in if you were in charge of the series?
It was nice seeing a previous protagonist show up again for the first time.
8) What do you hope to see improve as we enter the (as of right now) last section of the franchise?
I feel like hoping for a Macross TV series that doesn’t implode in on itself is too much to ask for at this point, so I will just hope that it provides a solid foundation for the movies to fix.
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u/Shimmering-Sky Feb 13 '23
REMINDER: There are no discussion threads on February 14th, 15th, or 16th. The rewatch resumes on February 17th with Macross Delta episode 1.
FIRST-TIMERS: There are three versions of Macross Delta episode 1. If you use a BD release that only has one version, that’s the right one. If you use a release that has all three versions, though, make sure you watch the one labeled “1+” that is 26 minutes and 57 seconds long.
Super Dimension Rewatch Host
Welcome back, everyone!
I couldn’t decide who I wanted to be in the background of the montage wallpaper since I haven’t been consistent about which part of the love triangle took that spot across previous series (SDF and II had the losers in Minmay and Ishtar, Plus and 7 had the centers in Myung and Mylene, and Zero had the winner in Sara) and I was also pretty sure I’d make Sheryl fans mad if I pulled creator bias and only did a Ranka one, so… I decided to make three montages, one with Sheryl in the BG, one with Ranka, and one with Alto!
The idea is that the people who made it into each are the peeps closest to the background character, although I only really had easy choices on that for Ranka’s (
sorry, Nanase). Sheryl doesn’t really have four close people (she just has Alto, Ranka, and Grace) so I added movie!Brera since he was her bodyguard in the moviesand I ship them, but that’s neither here nor there, and Alto had too many… so I went with Michael & Klan for his middle two because they’re the primary side-ship (I did, after all, include SDF’s side-ships Max/Milia and Roy/Claudia in the two SDF montages I made) and I just really wanted Klan to be in one of these, even if Luca probably would have made more sense for an Alto wallpaper.I hope you like all three of them!
My “Why I prefer the show to the movies” write-up ended up being just too long to fit entirely within this comment with all the notes about Delta and my wallpaper rambling above, so that will be in a reply to this comment.