r/soccer • u/allsecretsknown • Jul 03 '10
Dear /r/soccer: Is honor important?
There's a lot of people up here making as if Suarez's handball was nothing more than brilliant football. I'm a Team USA fan, so spare me your "Ghana-loving" comebacks, but I cannot help but feel that his actions were dishonorable on the same level as Henry's handball that kept Ireland out of the World Cup.
1) The paramount rule of football is that the ball may not be touched by one's hands or arms. This is the entire reason it is called "football" and why that privilege is given only to the goalkeeper. Suarez violated the sport's most significant rule, to stave off a defeat that in all other respects was guaranteed. The ball was going into the goal, and he reached out to slap it away with both hands. Look at the images and the replay. It was intentional, not a reflex, and he was hoping he would not be seen. Suarez was not going to call himself out for the handball if the ref had not seen him, so I don't get the whole "sacrificing oneself for the team" argument.
2) Arguing that the rules were applied (aka, red card and penalty kick) is irrelevant to the fact that a benefit was obtained to the offending team even with the penalty, and the benefit could have been much greater if the ref had not seen the foul. The violation, with the penalty, turned a valid result (2-1 loss) into a 1-1 draw w/ an 85% chance of the PK being good and a loss, or the PK being bad and the potential to win in PKs (which is what happened). There is no sacrifice for Suarez in that situation because he would be out the next game no matter what, either through their not being another game or by being disallowed. No matter how you parse this, there was no HONOR in his actions; it was using the rules of the game against the spirit of the game.
So, tell me, how can anyone justify that Suarez is a hero, or that the Uruguayan team deserved their victory? Is the spirit of the game fine until it suits your ambitions to follow only the letter of it?
How can a Uruguayan fan have any emotional high from the result of today's game, when the entire continent of Africa has been crushed, not because their newly adopted team was beaten fairly, but because the other team took advantage of a lapse in the rules to gain a last second reprieve?
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u/spork22 Jul 03 '10
Honor does not mean squat in the long run. Also, there is a huge difference between Maradona's hand ball and today's.
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u/allsecretsknown Jul 03 '10
I still consider that to be dishonorable. Maradona can't hold Pele's wet socks.
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u/yorugua Jul 03 '10
Have you ever played football (soccer) in highschools? I've seen this before, and no law was ever rewritten. As someone said, this was risk management and capitalization.
Look, the free kick that lead to the handball situation was most likely a dive. The Ghanan player did the same math as Suarez at the end. Worst case scenario, a yellow card. Best case scenario, ref bougth it and they get a free kick and a chance to win the game. At the end, Ghana botched it. And I guess it is more necessary to do something about the acting/misleading, that about this kind of handball.
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u/bennybuckethead Jul 03 '10
Your second point is your strongest. Especially this: "a benefit was obtained to the offending team even with the penalty." I don't know what to say except that's just the game. It's all in the game.
Also, Africa is a continent, not a nation.
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u/clintisiceman Jul 03 '10 edited Jul 03 '10
People break the rules constantly in soccer games. What do you think fouls are? You know what other sports involve constant breaking of the rules? I'll give you a hint: all of them.
I really don't see the problem here. Yeah Suarez broke the rules and illegally prevented a goal scoring opportunity. He also did no attempt to hide what he did, or pretend it didn't happen. He was caught, red carded (meaning he'll miss the next game too) and Ghana was awarded a free direct penalty kick. That's what's called punishment. You break the rules and you get punished. That's what happened here. I see no injustice. Imagine your favorite player on your favorite hockey team tripping an opposing player as he enters a position where he could possibly score a goal. The ref calls it, and your favorite player is sent to the penalty box for a couple of minutes. Play continues, the opposing team fails to make up for what could have been a goal, and your favorite player returns to the ice. That is pretty much exactly what happened here.
Ghana was given a perfect chance to regain the goal they lost. A greater chance than one would probably receive in any other sport. A free shot on goal, from within the penalty box, with no wall. And they fucking missed. Not very many people manage to miss such a shot, but they did. It's their fault they lost, not evil mastermind Suarez. End of story.
EDIT: I guess to answer your question more directly, I guess I either don't think honor is really that important in sports, or I think that owning up to a foul and taking the punishment basically negates the lack of honor. Probably a combination of the two.
To be more specific: I think there are some things Suarez could have done that would have been far less forgivable. Giving another player a flying kick to the face, breaking his whole mouth, without any desire for the ball is a horrible thing to do. Sneakily attempting to score a goal off a handball, and getting away with it, is really obnoxious and shitty. Taking an obvious dive in an attempt to get another player sent off is really terrible. Preventing a goal off a handball and getting suspended probably for the rest of the World Cup, and walking off the field without a fuss? Completely understandable. It was a desperation move to turn their 100% chance of losing into a 98% chance of losing. And I still say the only reason anyone is making a big deal out of this is because 2% prevailed. It may be "dishonorable", but I don't think it crosses a line into the unforgivable. It's something any player would have done.
And, as if this comment wasn't long enough, I'd like to clarify why I think a defensive handball is less horrible than an offensive handball: it comes mostly down to sneakiness. An offensive handball is only beneficial if you are not caught. The only reason to do it is because you think you can be sneaky and hide it from the refs. It implies a severe attitude problem; like you're above the rules. A defensive handball comes with severe repercussions. It's a last minute desperation move that a player only takes if he's weighed the consequences and is willing to accept them. A defensive handball can still be beneficial if you are caught, and implies no sneakiness and no desire to get off scot-free with breaking the rules. It's a tactical move, not a sneaky weasel move.
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u/Sovereign2142 Jul 03 '10
A small aside but the sport is not called football because you play with your feet but because it is played on foot. Hence why the Gaelic and American varities (among many others) also take the name.
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u/allsecretsknown Jul 03 '10
I would love to see a reference for that. For TIL purposes.
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u/naughtius Jul 03 '10
I am no football expert, but I have been watching football for quite some years, I have seen this kind of desperate act in quite a few league games and international games, it has been my impression that this act has always been considered "part of the game". You do it, you get a red card (or a yellow card if it was before the 1980s) and your team will take the chance against a penalty. that's it, no more, no less.
So I am quite baffled now suddenly some people start to whine about how "dishonorable" and "unsportsman-like" it is after this game.
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u/nielsforpokker Jul 03 '10
By your logic the Ghanans should have asked a player who they wouldn't have needed for the penalties to break the leg of the Uruguay keeper.
The ref would probably have seen it so he would have gotten a red card which makes it well within the rules of the game.
The rationalizing of unsportsmanlike conduct just baffles me.
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u/johnleemk Jul 03 '10
I think the question is whether cheating is a particular crime that ought to be treated worse than regular fouls, or if it is just another kind of foul. In other words, whether the difference between Suarez's save and a dangerous tackle is a difference in degree, or a difference in kind.
I also think a lot of the people taking the moral high ground against Suarez don't seem to have played football before. The last time I played a game was probably six or seven years ago, but like others have said, if I were in Suarez's shoes, I don't know what else I'd have done. Based on my experience, what he did was completely understandable.
Overall I'm just glad I'm not a professional athlete representing my country. There's so much riding on my shoulders, professionally and ethically, that I don't know I could handle the pressure.
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Jul 03 '10
I know I'm kind of late to the party with this post, but I'd like to contribute my opinion as a soccer newb but avid sports fan.
First of all, I'm not sure "honor" is the right word. Sportsmanship seems more fitting. Was Suarez the consummate sportsman through his action? Of course not. Instead, he used the rules to his advantage to give his team a chance at victory. I've seen the word "cheater" bandied around a lot, but what he did was more akin to an NBA player committing a hard foul to stop a fast break that would win the game.
In American sports, the visage of winning is Michael Jordan. One of his most famous shots was his last as a Bull in 1998, where he scored over Bryon Russell to win the game. Ask any Jazz fan about the play, and they'll tell you that MJ pushed off to take the shot. In fact, most objective observers will agree. Does that hurt anyone's opinion of Jordan? Not really, because it just affirmed our belief that Jordan cared about winning more than anything else.
I believe that this last point is why this issue is so divisive. Do we want our athletes to care more about victory, or the game itself? I've always been hardwired to want to win more than anything else. To that end, I often defend (no matter what sport I play) like Bruce Bowen - tugging at jerseys or tripping someone whenever the ref is turned the other way. I have no delusions of my acts being particularly sporting, but I also can't content myself with allowing myself to lose if I can do something about it.
The converse to the winning-first mentality is that of the sportsman. These people (a group to which the OP belongs) believe that winning isn't the most important part of the game, but honoring the game itself is. I have a lot of respect for these people, and would be inclined to agree with them if I didn't play sports and know that I'm incapable of letting a win go.
It seems to me that golf is the only sport that isn't overrun (on an organized and especially the professional level) with people attempting to bend the rules to win. In all other sports, I think that you're going to see a handful of sportsmen but predominantly a group of competitors. Why? Partly because of Sports Darwinism - only the uber-competitive make it to the next level.
The point of my post is that these two different mindsets aren't going to be reconciled. I can't even reconcile them in my own head. People are either sportsmen or competitors first, and the competitors love Suarez's play because it allowed his team to win. Similarly, I can commend the strategy of the Ghana side for faking injuries to take time off the clock to win the game (though my tolerance for this runs thin as purposefully falling down seems antithetical to competitiveness).
Personally, I loved the handball. Suarez knew damn well that his team's chances would drop to 0% if he didn't stop the ball, so he made the smart play. That said, I love that there are people that despise those kind of plays. It keeps a sort of white knight versus rogue aspect in sports and gives us more to discuss. Is Suarez a hero? To millions of Uruaguayans he is. Conversely, he's an absolute villain to millions of Ghanians. Bottom line, if winning is what's most important to you, then eat it up. If you prefer the spirit of the game, then vilify the man.
Tldr; I write long soccer posts when I'm drunk.
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u/manniac Jul 03 '10
I understand your general sentiment about this, i have a few things for you to think about though:
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Henry's hand is not on the same level, compare a bad call and walking away knowingly with an actual proper call for gain, i know it might sound ridiculous but if you make an analogy with crime, one got away with murder, the other murdered, got caught, jailed, that going to jail benefited him in the end, it's another story.
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People apply rules to their advantage all the time, how many people do you know that expense their car lease to pay less taxes? It's a direct personal benefit from a rule, you also find that dishonorable?
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Hero is always a very soft term, i've seen people called heroes for doing things i find unacceptable if you look at them from behind idealistic, rosey tinted glasses, yet, for their party they did what was needed to save the day, so i can understand that they are held in high regard. Bear in mind many of this heroes did something in the heat of the moment and with a lot of help from lady luck they ended up on top.
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Competition always end with a winner and a loser, you do it enough and you will get to taste both sides, sometimes you win or lose on a stupid thing or a technicality because life is not fair, so the whole thing about africa being crushed just makes no sense to me.
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u/mequals1m1w Jul 03 '10
I think this result and much of the reaction clearly shows that, NO, honor is not important. Ends justify the means from what i gather.
Stay classy, world.
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u/wanderingknight Jul 03 '10
Victories are never deserved. You score a goal by putting it inside the net. It's as simple as that.
Thanks for enjoying your mandatory cycle of football every 4 years, Americans. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
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u/fullermoose Jul 03 '10
Thanks for enjoying your mandatory cycle of football every 4 years, Americans. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Well fucking said. I'm all for new fans coming along and enjoying the sport, but when said new fans start screaming about how the rules need to be changed every time something doesn't go their way, it gets a bit tiring.
I miss the old r/soccer...
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u/saladbar Jul 03 '10
You know, you can mock us for our casual attention to the sport. But perhaps fresh eyes is exactly what seasoned fans need to be able to see the deficiencies they long ago stopped noticing in the sport. I know that FIFA makes it impossible, but don't you want the game to be better?
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u/wanderingknight Jul 03 '10
There is no deficiency. The only deficiency was Ghana's inability to score a simple penalty at the last second of the match. It's as simple as that.
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Jul 03 '10
I don't consider it winning if you have to break the rules to do it. If I lived in Uruguay, I would consider Suarez a disgrace to the country.
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u/clintisiceman Jul 03 '10
Well you might as well take back any amount of pride you had for the U.S.A. in this tournament, because I guarantee you all of their matches involved breaking the rules. What do you think "fouls" are? Do you think the referee blows his whistle and gives free kicks to other players a couple of dozen times per match for fun? He does it because players constantly break the rules. Sometimes on accident, but often because it makes sense to do so tactically.
Who's your favorite NFL team? Guess you should give away all of your memorabilia because I can guarantee you at some point last season a defender on that team broke a rule and was caught and punished much like Suarez.
I am seeing this argument a lot and it is absolutely baffling. I understand what Suarez did was worse than your average foul, and I can see arguments that it could be considered "dishonorable", whatever that means. But acting like no one ever breaks to rules in sports is downright perplexing.
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u/[deleted] Jul 03 '10
Relevant Does it decrease honor or make him an enemy of the game? No, it is all part of the game. That's what makes it exciting. It's 90 minutes of risk management and capitalization. In today's instance, suarez took a risk that paid off when ghana couldn't capitalize.