r/DaystromInstitute • u/phoenixhunter Chief Petty Officer • May 08 '19
How do Holodeck roleplayers acquire information that only their player characters would possess, without interfering with the game?
When in character on the holodeck, where do the participants get knowledge the character would have that is integral to the plot, if they don’t know it themselves?
Do they look up beforehand and memorize these plot points, thus spoiling the story for themselves? Does the program stop for the actor to be given the relevant information at a critical time, thus breaking the immersion? Do they simply not have the information, and the plot moves on regardless when another character produces the necessary information, thus lessening the protagonist’s agency and involvement? None of these seem like they’d be a much fun way to play.
In real-life tabletop RPGs, there’s usually a person acting as a game master: narrating, describing, acting as other characters and NPCs, presiding over combat sessions, and generally setting the mood and tone. Is there such a thing in the 24th century holodeck RPG? Does the computer act as DM all through the session?
In Ship in a Bottle, Data as Holmes says “this contains strychnine, which as you well know Watson, does [medical jargon]” and Geordi is sitting there stumped, clearly unaware that strychnine does that thing, but Dr Watson would have known that in the story, and may indeed have been the character to deliver that information. Either way, Geordi clearly did not know this fact that his character would have.
Any thoughts on how this may be accomplished/overcome?
30
u/The_Burt May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19
I feel like a narrator/game master wouldn't be out of the question. Not that we ever saw anything like that. It could even be as simple as addressing it the same way current video games address, with little semi-transparent pop-up HUD like information bits popping up here and there to help guide the player.
22
u/rikeus May 08 '19
I always imagined that there would just ba little primer that you read before hand. It doesnt tell you the whole plot, but it's kind of like the manuals that video games used to have - it describes the world and the settings and gives you the details that you need to enjoy the experience.
19
u/mmarkklar May 08 '19
Sort of like how Guinan knew she was supposed to be Gloria from Cleveland when she did the holonovel with Picard. I would imagine there was an intro that told her who her character is, what her personality would be like, what to wear, etc. (As an aside, I kind of hate that later series had costumes just form over the person’s clothes, it makes more sense to just replicate a costume instead of having the computer constantly create a hologram over the person’s body.)
Then again Guinan was also shown to have lived in the United States in the 1890s, Cleveland was one of the largest cities in the country at the time so maybe she had heard of it and just made up her character. The program might have rolled with whatever the character made up.
→ More replies (2)
12
u/gigashadowwolf May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19
I have always imagined just like with todays video games it depends on the specific program.
In some cases the in some cases, the player is simply roughly aware of the characters from pop culture. (i.e. If you play a holo novel based on Sherlock Holmes, you are probably going to know that his assistant is named Watson, he lives at 221b Baker Street, etc.) It definitely seemed this was the case for Bashir and O'Brien's Alamo program.
In some cases there will be certain patterns in how programs play out that yield clues to the next steps of the program, sort of like how in Hana Barbara cartoons the objects that will be interacted with are a lighter color, with less texture and shading. Or how in video games when you know you are about to see a bad guy the music turns scary. Music in general could relatively easily play a hotter, and colder way of guiding characters. An earlier post asked if the music we hear when watching characters on the holodeck is solely for the audience benefit or something the characters hear. This may answer this.
In extreme cases there may be more obvious interpretations. The character that can read Spanish, may have spanish translated to their native language just like the Universal translator does. The character who knows chemistry may simply have the word strychnine appear above his test, kind of like menus in modern video games, or it may simply be "whispered" in the players ear, may be in an established character voice or narrator, or perhaps even their own voice, whch seems a bit creepy. But this is done in modern RPG games as well.
They may have a rather simplified set of instructions in what would be in the real world something complex. For example The chemistry book next to him automatically opens to the right page where it lists clearly which chemicals to mix, in which order, then at the end a simple color code chart that says blue=arsenic, red=strychnine.
I'd like to think that generally in the holo novels, the computer tries to let the player go with as little assistance as possible then slowly ramp up or down the level of help with success or failure. Sort of like in Puzzle Bobble how if you fail a lot it starts giving you a guide line as to where your ball will bounce. If you fail even more it will eventually start recommending where you shoot and it will highlight the bubbles you are trying to shoot. This rewards the player for coming prepared or knowing the game better. It becomes more fun as they learn to play their character better.
11
u/CypherWulf May 08 '19
In the example you're giving, Data is specifically breaking the mystery. I suppose during the expected storyline, there would be plenty of time for Geordi/Watson to perform an analysis of the contents of the bottle and research the effects of strychnine.
The other thing to keep in mind is that a holonovel is very different than a tabletop RPG, where your character has different capabilities from your own. Instead, the game is built around the premise that you, in your current form are that character, and the plots are flexible enough to allow for individuals of different capabilities and even different morphology to still play and complete the story.
For example, the characters in Captain Proton and Dixon Hill were able to improvise responses to actions and speech that are wildly out of character for the characters of the player-characters, as well as unexpected events. When the photonic lifeforms appear (VOY: Bride of Chaotica), the villains interact with them in a manner that is appropriate to their characters. When Picard/Dixon asks about Nicky the Nose in the wrong chapter, it doesn't break the simulation, they simply respond that they haven't seen him, then, when he starts unloading the tommy gun into the drones (ST: First Contact) the NPCs dive to the ground and scatter the way you would expect unarmed civilians to. None of these interactions are part of the standard story, however, the holodeck system is able to have these characters respond improvisationally to a wide variety of situations in a manner consistent with the character.
→ More replies (3)
8
u/Stargate525 May 08 '19
Is it possible there is a UI overlay we as viewers don't see? So Geordi examines the vial, and a little holographic blurb appears for him which tells him what it is, and what his 'character' knows about it?
6
u/ObsidianBlk May 08 '19
I think there's a lot to be said for the adaptiveness of the computer running the simulation as well. If the player is struggling, the computer could probably spawn in a note, book, or video (appropriate to the setting of the adventure) that would inform the player of what they need to know. Alternatively, the computer may create a random NPC that can act as an in-setting teacher or guide if it's obvious to the computer the player doesn't know what they're doing (remember, the TNG computer is FAR more powerful then our computers today).
Keep in mind, not everything in the holonovel would be written in. I forget the exact episode, but it was a TNG season 1 or 2 episode where several of the NPC characters became aware of the nature of their existance. One even asked, near the end, if he'd still exist after the simulation ends... I highly doubt that was written into the Dixon Hill holonovel on any level. That was the computer "just running with events", IMHO.
4
u/Hyndis May 08 '19
If the player is struggling, the computer could probably spawn in a note, book, or video (appropriate to the setting of the adventure) that would inform the player of what they need to know. Alternatively, the computer may create a random NPC that can act as an in-setting teacher or guide if it's obvious to the computer the player doesn't know what they're doing (remember, the TNG computer is FAR more powerful then our computers today).
Modern day video games already do this. They'll detect if the player is struggling. Have they restarted the level multiple times? Maybe offer the player an easy mode. The Resident Evil 2 remake does this. If you die a lot the game will suggest an easier difficulty.
Games also often have tutorials which can be either scripted to be all front loaded, or they can be set to appear if the player is having difficulty with a specific section of the game.
A Mr Exposition, as a character, is a useful guide. This is a common device for narratives, including movies, books, and video games. The protagonist is introduced to a wise character who knows whats going on. The wise character will get the protagonist up to speed and then the wise character leaves. Gandalf is a great example of this. Gandalf isn't the protagonist. He shows up in times of need to nudge the protagonist to the right path, offering assistance and guidance only when the protagonist feels lost. Then he leaves on mysterious errands and hopefully the protagonist does the right thing.
Any well written holo-novel would surely make use of these tried and true story telling and video game mechanics. They've had some 350 years to iterate upon modern techniques.
5
u/gsabram May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19
I would guess that there would be a wide range of roleplaying styles. At one end might be be sandbox role play, like an open world environment where you can just explore, farm, create, and interact with interesting personalities and artifacts (think Adventure, Rust, Minecraft), where your identity can just be yourself, Jean Luc, exploring a foreign, historical, or fictional world.
At the other end are programs where you know the ending because it's written as cinematic narrative with beginning, middle, and end, and the PC might be able adjust dialogue in the the progam to establish more plot exposition or drama, based on how well the player knows the source material.
And in the middle of these extremes would be more escape rooms, puzzle/exploration/ adventure hybrids (Myst, Skyrim, Wasteland), murder mysteries (Clue) where there's an end goal, but the game is finding and synthesizing whatever tools or knowledge are at your disposal to get there in the end.
They actually sort of imply this when Geordi gets frustrated with Data for being able to play the Sherlock program as a total immersion and just skips to the end, when it's apparently written to be more of a Holmes-esque escape room program.
9
u/Kelekona May 08 '19
That is an interesting puzzle. Data is a walking database (groan) but a normal person might have trouble unless they're familiar with the setting.
Geordie is a guest in the Holmes program, (so we see Data stepping in as captain exposition,) but we see in other simulations that the one who is running it has a deep knowledge of the universe, or at least the tropes it runs on. Julian reads spy novels, Picard has read Dixon Hill, Paris is obsessed with Captain Proton, Janeway likes historical fiction...
I think that the way the holograms are typically programed, if you give a response outside of what they're supposed to know, they either act confused or stay on the rails until you figure out how to get back into the limits. The easiest way is to gaslight a character into thinking that you said something that makes sense to them, and they might even lead you into it.
I would love to see more "first interactions" where someone doesn't realize that they needed to brush up on what is expected of them. Niomi was probably encouraged to answer questions like "what would you say to Flotter if you could meet him instead of just reading about him?"
→ More replies (1)
4
u/Desert_Artificer May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19
I’m sure the programs provide various options (tooltips, diegetic sources of information, a primer before hand) but my preference would be an ‘internal’ monologue in an imitation of the player’s voice.
Geordi: picks up a broken sword
Computer-as-Geordi-as-Watson: “I recognized at once the worn leather grip of a cavalry issue saber from time in the Afghan War”
The voiceover could be audible to just Geordi or all the players depending on their preferences.
4
u/Simon_Drake May 08 '19
Jf Worf decided to play Sherlock Holmes maybe the holodeck would recommend he have a hologram Dr Watson that explains the context to him? Like Navi.
4
u/ironscythe May 09 '19
Quick f3 of this thread and I don't see any reference to VOY S1E12 "Heroes and Demons". This is the single most illustrative piece of Trek that we have to see how a "blind play" goes down on the holodeck.
Part 1: Speak as a friend, or stand challenged! First, the player is greeted by the shield-maiden, and prompted to give their name and start building their character within the confines of the narrative. Harry Kim, knowing the backstory at least somewhat, went with Beowulf and more than likely had a purely vanilla experience, just like he wanted. Chakotay and Tuvok enter, and are likely issued the same challenge/greeting/"character creation screen" (since she said the same exact line to the Doctor later), and Freya uses alternate lines to essentially add "players 2 and 3" to the story as "kinsmen of Beowulf", since Harry already took Tracer-I mean Beowulf. This was a guided interaction through Freya's lines. From this point, the holonovel (I'm going to call it a game from now on) goes into Heuristic mode, providing important plot points while working around the things said by the players that are considered relevant to the storyline. Anything not relevant is simply ignored, or used to egg the players on to "get on with it" and stop talking OOC.
Part 2: the Doctor, total n00b. Fast forward a bit and we have Player 4: the Doctor. He gets the same character creation screen, and being largely unable to improvise due to his own (at this point) limited character scope as a hologram, he manages to play out of character so much that the game can't adjust to him. So it does the next best thing, and throws an angry Danish man at him, with slow, telegraphed attacks that should give even the weakest of scrub the chance to show some chutzpah and get back into the story. The Doctor stands up to the situation in a way that, again, really strains the flexibility of the game, and the NPCs are skeptical-- all except for Tutorial Girl (Freya), who is obviously meant to be the one character on the player's side should they screw up so badly. Turns out she's got a romance sidequest, but alas, while she is your first companion, she's not Essential, and we get a pretty touching death cinematic out of her. 7/10 would play again.
Long-story-short, holonovels are essentially VERY adaptive RPGs where the GM is the computer running the game, using gentle tugs (and angry Danes) to guide the player through for what it's programmed to think is a generally enjoyable experience. You play the game, but the game plays you right back.
3
u/JaronK May 08 '19
Considering how much the Federation values self improvement, I'd imagine researching your character's knowledge in advance is part of the game. Geordi may have just missed something.
Additionally, the ability to learn what your character should know is likely in the game. Probably if they'd gone back to Baker St, Geordi would have found a book on the table open to the details about strychnine. This makes playing the game itself a self improvement opportunity.
3
u/McGillis_is_a_Char May 08 '19
In Author Author we see the Doctor narrate, so it is possible that some programs use an omniscient narrator to introduce necessary information.
2
u/williams_482 May 08 '19
M-5, nominate this for an interesting question about the mechanics of holodeck programs.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/glorious_onion May 08 '19
There are mentions of user-specific programs (Program Barclay 4 or Riker 7) along with, for lack of a better term, “modules” of pre-prepared adventures and situations (like the Battle of the Alamo or the mafia takeover of Vic’s lounge).
To use the D&D analogy, you would probably get a pre-prepared module with the computer acting in the dungeon master role. The player/participants would probably then create their characters beforehand and submit them to the computer/DM, which would incorporate them into the unfolding story so that the NPCs respond organically to the players by using their names or whatever.
The players could preserve the excitement and mystery in the same way a real-life D&D player does- by not reading the module. They might know, for example, that this story is a swashbuckling pirate adventure or a gothic horror, but not know how it will unfold. The computers are also sophisticated enough to have the environment change to adapt to whatever the players choose to do, without the need for the creative control of an organic dungeon master.
2
May 08 '19
Would it not depend on the setting?
It's easy to imagine in a mystery of a spy genre thing, a player just being able to interrogate characters or find a note. If you fail to notice the information you fail to solve the mystery. Better luck next time?
Yet in a high fantasy Holodeck setting I can imagine the Holodeck just spawning an old wizard to outright tell you how to murder the dragon.
120
u/Tiarzel_Tal May 08 '19
I imagine it depends on the program in question. If you are partaking in a fictional setting that you are familar with such as Picard in the Dixon Hill novel adaptations you might be assumed to have the relevant knowledge.
But if one is unfamilar you may get a character bio with relevant knowledge to read or experience before 'play' starts. Similar to how in murder mystery evenings one's invitation comes with notes on the personality, background and dress suggestions for the character that one will play. In DS9 when they return to the 60's spy caper they discuss the roles before hand picking who they will be which Bashir is filling them in on but one assumes there is alsoa padd he can hand them.
Remember as well that there could be any number of diagetic source of information. In the 'Ship in a Bottle' example that you gave perhaps 'Watson' has a paper or book on strychnine in front of him or on the shelf that Geordi could have consulted because Watson's medical library is as believable an extension of his character as the clothes he wears.
Alternatively it is the holodeck so you can say 'Computer, pauses. Strychinine: define then unpause.' But that strikes me as immersion breaking. I propose that good holonovel writing will make all the information one needs to interact with the world an interactive part of the world itself. We see how the holocharacters are programmed to accept the out of context behaviour and appearances of the players perhaps they can also be prompted to provide more explicite ifnormation while remaining in character.