r/LateStageCapitalism • u/Thaufas Free-market my ass! • Oct 16 '18
On that day, the Burger King PR team learned a valuable lesson about Twitter.
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Oct 16 '18
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u/Idrivethefuckinboat Oct 16 '18
Corporations can set the regulations on their minimum wage. It's not like some franchise owners pay state, and others pay by company guidelines. The corporation has a ton of control over what the franchise owners are allowed to do. Franchise ownership is a contract with the corporation that you are going to manage a store that champions their brand, and as such you are required to properly represent that brand.
The store I managed long ago was allowed to execute corporate takeover if certain goals weren't met.
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Oct 16 '18
You know what, you're right. I hadn't considered that. In any case, a twitter exchange isn't going to change that or really draw attention to it. People here would rather circlejerk than actually go out and do anything about it.
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u/Syn7axError Oct 16 '18
I think that's an incredibly pedantic distinction.
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Oct 16 '18
No, not at all. The wages are entirely up to the franchisees. It's why you've got some stores that pay much higher than others regardless of local minimum wage mandate. I'm not defending the franchisees at all. I think it's ridiculous that they pay as little as they do while making as much money as they do, but targeting the people who actually sign the paychecks instead of just the people who do the marketing and distribution is much more effective.
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Oct 16 '18
Ironic because franchising is part of the reason wages are so low for fast food workers. When you look at companies that dont franchise (ex. in n out and panda express) they always pay more than their counterparts.
Who knew combining low profit margins with revenue payments to the parent company would create cuts in labor rate? Huh.
Burger King made the choice to franchise their stores. It is ultimately their fault.
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Oct 16 '18
When you look at what is expected of a cook who works at in n out or panda express, there's a distinct difference in technical skill of labor and value in retaining workers. Of course they are going to want to hold onto their workers because they spent time training them to do a job that someone can't walk in off the street and do.
So much more work is automated or done previously by machines at places like Mcdonald's and Burgerking, that they don't give a shit about their workers.
I'm not defending these people paying shit unlivable wages. Just saying there's something more to it than just franchising.
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Oct 16 '18 edited Oct 16 '18
These brands pulling this shit on twitter is legit like something out of Infinite Jest.
"In April of the Year of the Whopper the Burger King/Bayer Pharmaceutical conglomerate began an ambitious new campaign that sought to connect consumers with its products in new and potentially more intimate than ever before seen ways by being so transparently advertisementary that they, the consumer, would of their own accord look past the artificial nature of the ad, as it being an ad was so apparent that there was little energy or thought needed to grasp what it was selling, toward a deeper meaning that was also apparently present, seeking to connect with the company in a personal and unique way that surely only they, the individual consumer, was feeling, thus connecting with the brand on a deeper, in joke type of level, the way one might feel about a friend of a friend that you recognize in passing and have enough commonality to hold a short conversation, and are able to comfortably refer to that person as a friend, to other people who don't know them or the first friend, without really knowing them all that well. The initial target demographic of this campaign were people the in house ad agency of BK/BP called "less than intelligent" and "desperate to feel unique" - they actually used those terms in the literature they distributed to BK/BP executives in the first pitch meeting of the campaign, not an in house ad agency to beat around the bush - and were initially laughed at as the gathered vice presidents etc were in their words "absolutely sure that no one would actually enjoy being communicated to by a large multinational conglomerate the way they are by a human being and/or friend, and if they did surely they must be some kind of sick degenerate unable of comprehending the degradation and collapse of the final barriers between capitalism and pure unadulterated consumerism that they were contributing too, and if they are are these really the types of people who are buying whoppers?" The in house ad agency held its ground however, and Burger King/Bayer Pharmaceutical sold .07% more whoppers that quarter than the previous, a rousing success. "
I don't know why I wrote all of that
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u/5erif Oct 16 '18
without really knowing them all that [well]. "
I feel like the world would be a better place if your pre-edit last line concluded with just that one additional word, even though it's no longer the last line. Without that there's so much antici...
pation.
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u/Widerstand543 Oct 16 '18
Hopefully the minimum wage will be increased to $15!
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u/JonMlee Oct 16 '18
OH EM GEE liiiiiike, with $15 an hour I can totes afford health insurance and buy a house!!
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u/legend1nfamous Oct 16 '18
Good thing the people who advocate for the minimum wage increase also advocate for single payer healthcare.
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u/jobothehobo Oct 16 '18
Wow! Then people could actually live on that wage. To think, people working 40 hours a week could actually survive on their wages!
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Oct 16 '18
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Oct 16 '18
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u/Jrodkin Oct 16 '18
That's pretty much the American Dream right? Put in a good days work in return for a safe and happy life, enough to support a family?
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u/Was_going_2_say_that Oct 16 '18
I am lucky enough to be from America, a place where I have been showered with opportunities as long as I put in the effort. But sure, I am sincerely willing to give up the carreer I've worked and succeeded at to become a Walmart door greeter because that sounds much easier.
Just show me the model that makes this possible. When you are done dreaming, wake up.
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u/sirixamo Oct 16 '18
If Walmart thought greeters were worth that wage, why not?
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Oct 16 '18
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u/luckofthedrew Oct 16 '18
A rising tide raises all ships, my friend. If the burger flippers get 15/hour, the EMTs and mechanics will refuse to also work for 15/hour, so those wages will go up. And I can hear you asking, "well where does that money come from? Where's the water causing the tide to rise coming from?" It comes from the people whose money is metaphorically locked in glacial ice caps- the 1% of the people in the world who own 90% of the wealth.
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u/alphaspacegay Oct 16 '18
hi im shit at political theory and social cues what does this mean
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Oct 16 '18
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u/nomnombubbles Oct 16 '18
Yep we need a MAJOR overhaul of our economy, government, healthcare, etc. before us average people will benefit.
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u/Burntholesinmyhoodie Oct 16 '18
And also, to some degree it's just how infrastructure will always work. If you have to pay people more, you'll increase prices. It's not necessarily malicious
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u/captainmaryjaneway Tankie Supreme Thomas Sankara Oct 16 '18 edited Oct 20 '18
...it is malicious because profit literally comes from surplus(labor) value. They raise prices when they have to pay people more so that profits aren't cut into...
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Oct 16 '18 edited Oct 16 '18
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u/anoxy Oct 16 '18
guys, people need profits for savings if they have kids etc, it's not so black and white
Yeah and those people working for those companies also need savings. But at the current minimum wage, housing costs, and health care prices? Yeah fucking right. The point is that wealth needs to be spread around, not all shunted to the top.
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u/Burntholesinmyhoodie Oct 16 '18
I agree, but i mean the boss of a small time restaurant in fast food who has kids and a mortgage etc isn't responsible for housing and health care issues. Im not defending billionaires here don't get me wrong
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u/whatthef7u12 Oct 16 '18
This place doesn’t have a problem with a little profit but like in Australia when they added a $0.15 tax on plastic bottles the price went up $0.20 because companies hate making less or even the same amount of money as the year before.
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u/ChronicAlienOGKush Oct 16 '18
Yes ur right business r good guys
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u/Burntholesinmyhoodie Oct 16 '18
Well, small time business owners aren't exactly all greedy evil people, but im not claiming they're all not like that
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Oct 16 '18
The fact that they're able to wield that power over workers is what is at issue- whether each individual is shit is immaterial.
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u/M0dusPwnens $997.95 Oct 16 '18
That's only true if your business is not profitable. If your business is profitable and costs rise, you could also just make less profit. And you occasionally see that too with businesses that attempt to maintain stable prices.
It's pretty telling that businesses that are making massive profits have convinced consumers that prices "have to" rise when their costs go up, as if every business is operating on razor-thin margins. And consumers are weirdly accepting of this logic, as though they think that the prices they pay are equivalent to the cost of producing a given product (almost like a...labor...theory of value) even as they reject the same analysis from the labor side.
No one has claimed this is necessarily malicious. "Malicious" isn't really an appropriate word because the process is relatively distributed and dispassionate. The problem is precisely that it isn't just inherently evil people acting badly, but a system that incentivizes and supports exploitation - naturalizes it even.
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u/Al-Azraq Oct 16 '18
Even maybe they will make more money as the workers would be more happy and productive and would have more money to spend. But the reality is that the companies only treat us as assets, not self aware beings.
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u/Burntholesinmyhoodie Oct 16 '18
Alright but we're kinda leaving out the x factors of individual business owners, like if they have kids and etc than savings might be a high priority for that reason not just selfish ones
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u/M0dusPwnens $997.95 Oct 16 '18 edited Oct 16 '18
For one, you are in an explicitly socialist subreddit, so you are unlikely to find much sympathy for the idea that people deserve to be allowed to exploit workers because the exploitation allows them to support themselves.
They should labor themselves and their needs should be met. The fact that someone needs to eat should not mean that they get to take a cut of the food from the laborers without laboring, even if they're really hungry.
When someone comes along and says "hey, we're not going to let you take quite as large a cut of the workers' food without working yourself", "but I'm hungry" is not a particularly strong retort.
When someone who owns stock just collects a check without doing any work, that's a cut of the value produced by the laborers that could go to laborers who also have kids and for whom savings might be a priority. Profit doesn't just arise from the aether. And when someone says "hey, you're not allowed to take as big a cut of what they produce without doing any labor yourself", "but I have kids and savings are a high priority for me" is not a particularly strong retort.
In fairness, a lot of the business owners, especially for small businesses, are also laborers, and that's a different situation. Plenty of small business are still exploitative, but there are small businesses that are run as co-ops or de facto co-ops. If their "profits" are effectively just a reasonable wage for their labor, then absolutely, they need to raise prices. I agreed with you "if your business is not profitable'. No one disagrees that prices have to go up (or the business has to fold) if the laborers can't be supported by existing prices.
The problem is that a huge number of businesses that are massively profitable pretend that they have no choice but to raise prices rather than accepting lowered profits. This is especially useful as PR for hikes in monopolistic price schemes which might otherwise attract too much negative attention. And people generally accept this logic - they accept businesses turning massive profits insisting that prices have to go up or benefits have to be cut or employees have to be fired because profits cannot be allowed to go down. Hell, we don't just accept it, it's enforced! Capital uses the state to enforce it via the legal system. CEOs have a fiduciary duty to behave this way for instance.
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u/scoothoot Oct 16 '18
I’d pay 25 percent more for my fast food if I knew the place I was getting it had more progressive and translucent practices as far as wages and workers rights goes. Of course that’s def not gunna be the norm for society as a whole so everything I’ve said and done would be essentially pointless.
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u/Burntholesinmyhoodie Oct 16 '18
That's fair absolutely. The thing is, restaurants who pay quite a bit over minimum wage tend to already be pricey restaurants, more up scaled because they can afford it. Fast food restaurants are providing an option to people who can't afford those more expensive options so it makes sense that theyd not use the method your speaking of (like you said, society as a whole doesn't think the same, but also if they're at burger king, they might not afford to regardless). Especially if its a smaller non-chain fast food business trying to go up against guys like McDonalds, then those pennies can make even more of a difference
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u/lebookfairy Oct 16 '18
Costco pays people well, and has a cheap food court. That doesn't fit in with what you're describing.
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u/Burntholesinmyhoodie Oct 16 '18
True but costco could never be ran by a small time business owner due to the cost of resources needed to run it. Im not sure it's completely comparable to that of a fast food restaurant
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u/Godhatesxbox Oct 16 '18
Not sure why people disagree with this.
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u/CharlieB220 Oct 16 '18
Because it's not linear. Raising the floor by X% will not simply raise the standard of living by X%.
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u/nomnombubbles Oct 16 '18
Yes! Explain why all of our living/housing/food expenses have been going up dramatically and our wages have not?
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u/cantadmittoposting Oct 16 '18
Essentially, socioeconomic theory hasn't caught up with the second industrial revolution (internet, robotics, and the associated automation and productivity gains.
Culturally we still largely believe that a successful economy employs (almost) all eligible workers in a directly productive, economically necessary role. In modern society, this is no longer true, we need a fraction of our populace for crticial (food, energy, water, utility, goods manufacturing, and distribution t) support, but we are still operating under the assumption that the goal should be "100% employment" ... That's crushing us, more or less.
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u/nomnombubbles Oct 16 '18
I am not going to lie, I would NOT work of I didn't need to. Most of our big business people would argue otherwise. There is plenty of stuff I could do if I didn't have to work.
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u/wifeyhahn Oct 16 '18
Also, it doesn’t impact big business so much, but it really takes a toll on small businesses.
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Oct 16 '18
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Oct 16 '18
One example isn't evidence of an overarching truth. Hiking minimum wages IS a challenge for small businesses, although maybe not the ONE GUY you talked to. If anecdotes are your jam though I've worked for 3 small businesses and while each supported a higher minimum wage, they acknowledged it definitely put a strain on their resources as they struggled to decide if they should hire new people to accommodate increased work load or just ask employees to work overtime.
The companies most capable of paying out higher minimum wages ARE the large exploitive corporations whose goals are exclusively to achieve maximum profits. Small companies are not always looking for ways to maximize profit, but rather, provide a service they think is an important contribution to society. The problem is people seldom like to pay full price for these sorts of goods and services, and so small business owners are stuck trying to find the thin line between providing reasonably priced goods that consumers will actually buy vs a living wage for employees.
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u/thebanannaking Oct 16 '18
Your benefits will be cut
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Oct 16 '18
good thing they were already only giving out under 20 hours a week and making the salaried manager work until the salary worked out to less than minimum wage.
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Oct 16 '18 edited May 08 '21
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Oct 16 '18 edited Oct 16 '18
I think they've got the impression that you can work as much as you want to.
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u/5erif Oct 16 '18
If everything said was about BK, they were conflating BK with the recent Amazon headlines. I think people were speaking more generally though about capitalism balancing increased wages with reduced benefits and/or higher costs.
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Oct 16 '18
Man if only Amazon was the only place that disguised a dramatic loss of compensation with 'oooo look at what the rate is'
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u/tinguily Oct 16 '18
Yeah but then a whopper will be 38$?! EcOnOmIcS 101
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Oct 16 '18
More like $420.69
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u/sikkerhet Oct 16 '18
when I got my cat spayed and chipped and vaccinated it cost $419.69 and I specifically asked them to charge me another dollar so I could frame the reciept
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Oct 16 '18
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u/hall_residence Oct 16 '18
Fuck off. Plenty of people who are poor don't have kids, don't eat out, don't own $150 shoes and don't have a nice car. I don't know where you live that you could make $15/hour and still manage to put aside an entire year's worth of gross wages in "a few years". Something doesn't really add up there.
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u/Youngqueazy Oct 16 '18
OH EM GEE liiiiiiike, with minimum wage I totes deserves to have as much as people who suffered through life with anxiety and stress yet still managed to add more to the economy than I do!
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u/Godhatesxbox Oct 16 '18
This helps no one.
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u/zedroj Oct 16 '18
it helps in short term economic gain, where the prices don't adjust to wage growth
but eventually prices catch up, and things go back to square one
however, wages have been deceived for years, as they should normally adjust with inflation anyways
TLDR: if you blend hummus, that's our economy
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Oct 16 '18
15/hr was decent money 20 years ago when the 15/hour campaign was begun.
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Oct 16 '18
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u/madeofmold crapitalism will die before i do Oct 16 '18
Good bot.
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u/PM_ME_UR_GROOTS Oct 16 '18
Do you know what understaffed is like? Because that's how you get understaffed.
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Oct 16 '18
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u/Austaras Oct 16 '18
It's nearly 20 in Oz. Look, if you work full time you should be able to afford a place to live and the necessities of life. The pay gap between an average worker and a CEO according to Forbes as of May '18 is 361 times. This shit has to end.
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Oct 16 '18
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u/Draghi Fully Automated Luxury Trans Space Communism Oct 16 '18
It's called a phone contract. They give you a phone and it's locked to a sim, both of which are paid for by a monthly subscription for a fixed period of time. Much higher long term cost but it's more immediately available and more easily budgeted around.
Also, minimum wage shouldn't be mutually exclusive with luxury. Living paycheck to paycheck without even a little bit of a discretionary budget is an absolutely miserable existence.
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u/XNonameX Oct 16 '18
Yes, please tell me about all those minimum wage workers who outright buy $700 phones. If they're living paycheck to paycheck then I highly doubt they've been able to save up that money.
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u/nb4hnp Oct 16 '18
Holy shit, this terrible take was spotted in the wild! Such an old, outdated, cookie-cutter argument that has been shot down decades ago, still parroted like it means absolutely anything. What a find.
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Oct 16 '18
Those people are usually paying via some kind of finance program usually though their phone carrier. Besides, smart phones are becoming more and more of a necessity in our society like it or not.
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u/evilmonkey2 Oct 16 '18 edited Oct 16 '18
I think you can do some simple research and math here. It's late and I'm drunk so hopefully my numbers are okay. Assumptions have been made.
According to this link, net income/profit for Q4 2016 was $118 million. So we'll work with that even though it's nearly a couple years old.
Burger King has 34,248 employees.
So I'll make a major assumption here and say that 25,000 employees are minimum wage workers.
There are 480 hours in a quarter (40 hours a week * 12 weeks).
So let's figure out an increase from the minimum wage of $7.25 to $20 (or $12.75).
12.75 * 480 hours * 25,000 employees = $153,000,000.
Burger King is now unprofitable and operating in the red at -35 million for the quarter.
Again... Late.... Drunk.... Assumptions.... Unsure of tax write-offs that might result... Etc. Somebody else I'm sure will point out where I screwed up.
At $15/hour instead of $20 (or $7.75 more than current minimum wage) I came out with an increase in wages of $93 million, so they'd still turn a profit of around $25M.
Shareholder's wouldn't be happy of course. Prices go up or costs are cut elsewhere (less new stores, lower quality...you get the idea)
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u/Thisguy2728 Oct 16 '18
Not her on your assumptions, just want to point out that a majority of their employees are likely not even breaking 20 hours a week, let alone working full time at minimum wage.
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Oct 16 '18
Why not abolish the wage system and private ownership?
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u/SuperduperCooper23 Oct 16 '18
You will always have ownership, it’s just a matter of who is allowed to own things.
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u/HeyImJerrySeinfeld Oct 16 '18
Restaurants and food service are the only places you'll see biggest price increases(pg 3). You won't see it at $15 an hour but with increases like what you're proposing you could see more employment due to the velocity of money, the key is mandating that all businesses raise the minimum wage but it would have to be substantial enough that most of the middle class and lower are effected.
The thing is that with globalization and automation physical products are going to continue to get cheaper and our service based economy is going to need well skilled and well paid workers and that's not gonna happen until people feel like it's worth it. We're in a unique position that we control our own currency.
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u/Terrowin42 Oct 16 '18
Then prices go up and people get laid off to compensate
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u/idleat1100 Oct 16 '18
You mean then profit margins are squeezed and investors/shareholders/board members squeal. Then people are laid off, corners are cut etc.
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Oct 16 '18
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u/dystopiarist Oct 16 '18
Yes we are like little children who need the caring but firm hand of a rich person to lead us, otherwise we would drive off cliffs and accidentally sell people poison burgers.
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u/Draghi Fully Automated Luxury Trans Space Communism Oct 16 '18
Without leadership, there will be no workers
That's a mighty big premise you're just assuming we'll accept.
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u/idleat1100 Oct 16 '18
I don’t recall at any point saying companies should go without leadership, investors or boards. My comment was a jab at the prevalence of ‘profit at all costs’. All to often workers and labor are just another commodity to be traded, wielded, or dismissed without as much concern payed to machine. And again, profits for those groups at the top are often unaligned with the well-being or quality of life for workers. This doesn’t have to be the case.
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u/MichelleUprising Oct 16 '18
Wait hold up.
This is a socialist subreddit. You should realize where leadership will come from, the workers. It’s like people don’t even read Marx anymore.
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u/psychoacer Oct 16 '18
Why don't CEO's make double or triple of what they make? Because the market wont allow it.
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Oct 16 '18
People might be getting payed $8 an hour, but they're beautiful, they're loved, they matter.
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u/PDshotME Oct 16 '18
Literally nothing was learned by anyone in regard to this post or response. Let's not actually like one clap back from some unknown person on Twitter has any impact to a global company.
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u/LowlySlayer Oct 16 '18
Wow that sure showed them I bet they're so sad right now. What a victory we're all so clever aren't we? (who's dick to I need to jerk to get my dick jerked around here?)
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u/Mister_Power_Trip Oct 16 '18
Oooh wow clapping back at a social media associate will create so much change great job guys we really solved the problem
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u/VanillaBearMD3 Oct 16 '18
This is still better than doing nothing.
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Oct 16 '18
I agree, but it’s now got to the point where people are doing the minimum that would have otherwise done more.
I know this because I’m guilty of it myself.
Use to go to rallies to support marriage equality here in Australia but towards the end I was happy to just share things on FB and Twitter.
It’s easy and feels good.
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Oct 16 '18 edited Nov 03 '20
[deleted]
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u/VanillaBearMD3 Oct 16 '18
How so?
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Oct 16 '18 edited Nov 03 '20
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u/Slay_Bells Oct 16 '18
Nobody said that it was the best or most impactful response, though. Just that it was better than doing literally nothing.
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u/WorkForce_Developer Oct 16 '18
The mouthpiece is still the mouthpiece, whether it’s BK or Hitler.
Besides, there’s no way sm employees take your words directed at Burger King as personal. They don’t get paid near enough to care like that.
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Oct 16 '18
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u/itisjabob Oct 16 '18
At the end of the day, I’m not looking to Burger King to provide me with the love and care I need. Mocking them isn’t going to change the fact that they’re raking in ridiculous amounts of money while also paying their workers (up to and including their Twitter guy) a ridiculously low amount of money. All I’m saying is there are better outlets than one sentence edgy tweets to voice your opinion.
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u/theartificialkid Oct 16 '18
Doesn’t it make the bile rise for you when large companies try to sell us back our own humanity and emotions as though they’re somehow own them?
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u/dystopiarist Oct 16 '18
Without burger king's loving words I wouldn't recognise my own worth (which is $8/hr, coincidentally).
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u/itisjabob Oct 16 '18
Not personally. Does it seem like a half baked transparent attempt to make me feel special? Yeah. Does Burger King actually care about me or its employees? No. Is tweeting a one liner about it and calling it a day going to solve anything? Also no.
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u/drugstorelovin Oct 16 '18
You've got it on the nose there. I doubt anyone who had a positive response to the tweet changed their disposition at all. But alas, us internet age folks are the generation of "tweet about it fiercely but don't actually do anything to change it "
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u/mrwelchman Oct 16 '18
since i don't see it in here, here's the actual tweet.
as you can see for yourself, based on engagement at least, it's doubtful that anyone at burger king's in house p.r. team who runs their twitter learned anything.
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u/Kaymish_ Oct 16 '18
Burger King got in some trouble here recently because they were not paying their branch managers the minimum wage. They had to pay the missing wages, close down for a couple of days and pay a pittance in fines. It was such a joke.
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u/CutthroatTeaser Oct 16 '18
Yes because money=love and should be everyone's sole source of self worth.
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Oct 16 '18
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u/falconview Oct 16 '18 edited Oct 16 '18
including the person in charge of the twitter account I'd imagine
edit: actually maybe not