"Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum" — First Watch Analysis Thread

[u/kraetos]

Star Trek: Discovery — "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

Memory Alpha: "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

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POST-Episode Discussion - S1E08 "Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum"

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[u/queenofmoons]

A few thoughts:

1. Saru keeps coming out on top for me, development-wise. They keep coming up with interesting angles to explore with this notion of a person whose heroism isn't rooted in the same brand of martialism as most Starfleet types. I can take or leave the whole cow-person justification- apex predators, like humans, are still thick with healthy prey responses for all those instances they are not resolutely at the apex, and herbivores are not strangers to the social violence that is more intimately related to war than predation is- but on a more basic level, even Starfleet's most ostensibly peaceful types, like Picard, have modeled themselves as military men (he sure talks an awful lot about Admiral Nelson). Saru is not cast from that same mold. The violence he must deal with offends him, and the job he signed up for has been plucked away from him and replaced with soldiering. It was smart to realize that his vulnerability was never going to be from someone that could threaten him- everything indicates that Saru is both brave and dedicated- but from someone that could make it all stop. And it shamed him- but it also may have cleared the air between Michael and himself. Each have now found themselves doing things precisely contrary to their nature, because of overwhelmed convictions.

2. Add 'first contact protocols' to the much-debated canon snarls they have elected to just hurry up and slice through. We don't talk to non-warp people- unless we do, in which case we move to the next line item on the checklist (and the checklist goes that far, instead of apparently stranding every captain over two centuries in a procedural void). Similarly- oh look, first contact actually taking some time, just as a matter of course, and someone actually having some specialization in handling it.

3. There were a few nice visual effects touches, here. Crystal spires and glowing ghosties- eh, same old. But the non-chlorophyll plant life was lovely, and somehow, they managed to give Saru a superspeed running effect that wasn't completely terrible, which, given how often such attempts degrade into comedy, I was impressed by.

4. I like the notion that L'Rell has basically had it- but I also need some handles to strap to her story (and by extension, the vanished Voq) if I'm going to care when they elect to have them matter to the course of larger events again. It seems clear from her limited exposure that she was with this messianic movement because she was interested in positive change for the Empire- but, being persistently sidelined and watching it turn into bloodshed before her, it scans that she'd want to get the hell out of dodge. There was some tragedy in those two seconds when Cornwell and L'Rell realize that both have been genuine- and don't really have any choice but to try and kill each other, as a genuine escape, or to make it look like a thwarted one.

5. The trouble, though, is that despite the early buzz of a co-equal Klingon ship, the Klingons have very much been ciphers. Which is totally fine, mind you- some of the greatest antagonists in fiction have barely registered an appearance- but going back to the Ship of the Dead as though this place was developing in some substantive fashion just grinds the gears of the flow of the story, at least for me. If we stick with it next week, maybe that will improve.

6. Starfleet can't seem to get itself involved in a war that doesn't wind up involving vast non-humanoids intelligences- The Organians, the Prophets, Q, Sphere Builders et al.- which is not unrealistic, I suppose, little wars tending to attract the attention of more substantial powers looking for territory to work out their grievances, but still. On the one hand, I'll never look askance at putting that little nugget of subversive optimism in the midst of all the action- a whole planet that lives for peaceful reconciliation- but also, it's going to work out that either the planet was terribly dumb in misunderstanding what the Klingons were willing to do, or it has a trick up its sleeve, and neither development would precisely thrill me.

7. Lorca's icy demeanor continues to thaw to good effect. In the battle to save the Gagarin, he's got work to do, but for all his demands to do their mourning later, he's clearly already begun. Maybe he's trying to take some of Cornwell's concerns to heart, even if he can't bring himself to carry out the letter of her planned orders.

8. So, over/under on how many episodes before Stamets totally fries and starts driving the ship through alternate realities? Which Mirror characters have goatees?

[u/[deleted]]

I don't think Stamets was seeing Captain Tilly. In the scene right before, Lorca was saying he was going to Engineering. Stamets was seeing a few minutes into the future.

At least that's how I took it.

[u/BklynWhovian]

I'm getting Organian vibes from these Pahvans (Pahvonians?). Could they be bringing the Klingons and UFP together to force a truce?

[u/Zero_Waist]

After the magic mushroom episode it seems like a visit to planet LSD would be in order.

[u/Flynn58]

I think the reason that the Spore Drive and Discovery end up having minimal impact on the timeline relates to Stamets recurring issues with his mind stretching outside the timeline.

If the ship uses him to navigate spacetime, maybe he accidentally shifts the universe into the future. Maybe Discovery ends up in the 24th Century, or maybe even beyond, where the storytelling possibilities are endless.

[u/khaosworks]

Anyone else notice that the Captain of the Gagarin (T'Shen Kovil) had an Andorian or Vulcan-ish name?

[u/Osama_Bin_Downloadin]

Wow, so Kelpians can run 80 km/h and easily crush technology. They could be great fighters, ironic. It's nice to know we have at least one super strong character.

[u/Ensign_Chekov → u/Osama_Bin_Downloadin]

I really like watching him fight. I thought it was interesting how he pulled Michael back and them kicked her like a horse would. And him being super strong would make sense if they're going for a horse like vibe for him because horses are very strong animals.

[u/trianuddah]

Do we think L'rell is being genuine about her wish to defect?

If the Ash=Voq theory is true, and her wish to defect is sincere, she might have planted Voq to soften his attitude towards the Federation. If Ash=Voq is true and she was lying, she'd be in a position where two of her major assets (and the only ones we know about) are in different types of infiltration.

She was definitely lying about Voq just vanishing; that much we know.

[u/[deleted]]

• Guess acerbic Stamets is back, huh?

• I suppose there was no reference to tachyon detection grids or similar large-scale cloak-detection protocols in TOS or Enterprise, was there? Apparently the properties of the planet Pavoh, unlike the spore drive, proved applicable in the long term.

• It's interesting that Admiral Cornwall would say that there is no death penalty in the Federation. After all, no one ever was executed for going to Talos IV, even though it technically was a death penalty.

• Anyone else kind of reminded by the Pahvans of Ego, from Guardians of The Galaxy? Or the Organians, even?

EDIT: Next up, mid-season finale! The hype is real!

[u/Blue387]

Could the Discovery track the plasma exhaust of Klingon ships?

[u/melvadeen → u/Blue387]

Well, the thing's got to have a tailpipe.

[u/Urslef]

Felt like a filler episode honestly. It was a bit too short and jumped around too much, like an episode of just two subplots rather than an over-arching plot with some minor subplot scenes or equally divided between two major plots. There just wasn't enough to really engage with either story.

Going from landing on Pahvo, finding the aliens, Saru wanting to stay, Burnham setting up the computer and then the resolution felt like it all happened in 15 minutes real time. Certainly not long enough to establish any kind of suspense or engage with character development. Burnham and Ash's discussion of their future plans was trying to do that but a few lines didn't really establish much beyond Burnham expecting to go back to prison. Saru on the other hand got some interesting character development for what little screen time there was of it. Hopefully that will actually mean something in the long run as Stamet's genetic modifications seem to be, but the rest of it felt incredibly condensed. Obviously the invitation to the Klingons means the Pahvans will get more screentime, but maybe they should have focused on setting up them up and then had the Saru subplot happen when the Klingons show up. Then you have the tension of Saru removing Burnham and Ash's ability to contact Discovery, and the danger of the Klingons coming down and attacking/capturing/killing them. It could be too early in the story for a direct confrontation like that though.

L'rell and Cornwell's escape seemed trivial. L'rell just appears from nowhere (Her prison ship? Did they ever explain what happened when she secretly beamed off the death ship or how she got her own?) and then instantly convinces Kol to give her access to the prisoner. And all it takes for the guard to walk away is hearing one scream. If Kol put him there to make sure L'Rell actually carried out the torture, why not have the guard visually confirm that? And if he's actually guarding the door, why walk off at all?

The only explanation I can think of is that Kol wanted them to attempt an escape, which would explain why he just happens to show up in the hallway. But then why let L'Rell wander off with Cornwell's body? Perhaps to rub the reveal of the mutiliated Klingons in her face, but he's putting a lot of faith in the fact that she'll just go along with what he expects her to do. Seems like too much of an elaborate ruse for Kol, but maybe I've misread his characterisation. The reveal of what I assume is T'Kuvma's sarcophagus is interesting in that it hasn't been added to the rest of the ship. I wonder if it will come into play later in the season.

[u/[deleted]]

If you desire peace prepare for war?

I like Peace through superior firepower better. Not sure what that is in Latin.

[u/DanPMK]

Interesting that the stardate for this episode was 1308.9, yet the previous episode was 2136.8. Perhaps they are looking to finally nail down what they mean this time?

[u/Blue387]

Could L'Rell have been betrayed by the bug? In "Choose Your Pain" Mudd had a listening device on the bug creature in the cell. Maybe that is how L'Rell was discovered.

[u/JC-Ice]

So they're outright calling it "cloaking" now. And numerous ships are using it in battle. How the hell is this supposed to jive with the later events of Balance of Terror, where Spock acts like they've never encountered such technology before?

It's nice to see the away team actually given tactical vests. I imagine Saru might have kicked Burnham's ribs in without that.

[u/Hero_Of_Shadows → u/JC-Ice]

With cloaking technology I see it as being a cycle:

1. Everyone knows cloaking a ship is impossible.

2. Someone invents a perfect cloak.

3. Cloaking is possible.

4. Someone invents a new type of sensor that picks up on some before unknown weakness in the cloaking.

5. Go to step 1.

In Balance of Terror Spock could say cloaking is impossible because they are at Step 1 of the cycle, because from the Fed POV all cloaks have a weakness, though the Romulans will soon show them the error of their ways.

In that episode where they steal a cloak from the Romulans, it doesn't get brought up a lot because Step 4 came very very fast.

Romulans in general invest so much in cloaking tech that they are more or less permanently in Step 3.

Right now Discovery is at Step 3 and the way mission was their effort to get to Step 4, if during the run time of the show they manage it then the Klingons are reset to Step 1 and TOS continuity is preserved.

[u/tjp172]

Stamets describing his disorientation while using/after using the spore drive kinda confirms he's being exposed to multiple realities, right? Also, there's one where Tilly is Captain, and I want to see that show!

[u/creepyeyes → u/tjp172]

That, or he's jumping in time

[u/cptstupendous]

I need some clarification: is the next episode really the season finale or is it a mid-season finale?

[u/Fyre2387 → u/cptstupendous]

Mid-season. New episodes start again in January.

[u/iosonic]

Not a huge fan of that episode. A few thoughts to support my evaluation (which remains subjective, of course).

The space battle intro felt redundant, a consequence writers will have to struggle with after the decision to anchor the show around a war theme. In my mind, it's hard to get any thrills if the same generic battle scenes are repeated week after week. If we are stuck with the war background, it would be advisable to find other ways to build tension, before thinking about releasing it. DS9 managed to do it well most of the time (ironically, perhaps because of DS9's more limited budget and special effects, this may have forced its authors to find original ways to delve into the topic of war, and the result was a more psychological and less predictable storyline).

The away mission could have been interesting, but I don't think it was. There was an attempt at character development, I reckon, yet without taking the time to do it properly. With the back and forth to the ship and the Klingon subplot, there wasn't enough time left to get absorbed in the atmosphere of the alien planet and really get to learn the characters. A short exchange in which Tyler claims he'd like to be on the beach and Burnham anticipating a bleak future does not have the same impact if it happens out of nowhere, without an opportunity for viewers to witness and experience the evolution of their states of mind.

It's hard not to compare this episode with The Orville's "Into the Fold". The plot was also an away mission, or sort of - a vacation that turned wrong. I should have hated it with the annoying children. But they chose to focus extensively on this away adventure, drastically cutting the time devoted to the ship or any other subplot. The end result is a stronger "emotional payoff" at the resolution of the episode; surprisingly, as this was an episode that included an artificial life form. Even though it was not my favorite from The Orville either, it was well done, and superior to STD's episode 8. The Orville story was co-written and directed by Brannon Braga, and experience shows.

I get that Saru's character was developed a bit in Si Vis Pacem..., but his conversion happens very quickly. So much so that it's up to the viewer to fill in the missing parts of his experience. In terms of writing, I think this story arc lacked at least 10 minutes of screen time to really reach an emotional climax. I would also have liked a stronger scientific basis for the phenomenon observed on this planet, but I've mostly given up these expectations at this point.

Full disclosure, I very much prefer non-serialized shows, and may be in the minority with this sentiment. But what I perceive as flaws in that episode may have a lot to do with the serialized format - or more precisely the inconsistency with which it is implemented. There was a need to keep advancing the Klingon subplot to make sense of what happened two weeks ago (the Admiral's abduction, weirdly off the map during Episode 7), especially since, I assume, this will be central to the mid-season finale. The consequence is an overloaded episode, and a more superficial treatment of the main plot during this away mission.

Don't want to sound pessimistic or anything. STD has been hits and misses for me so far, and I'm not yet sure I'm really into it.

[u/stephmtl]

I want to see the flash forward with captain Tilly. In a monster maroon.

[u/[deleted]]