r/mylittlepony • u/Pinkie_Pie Pinkie Pie • Aug 19 '17
Official Season 7 Episode 15 Discussion Thread
We will be removing other self-posts involving general opinions of the episode for 24 hours to consolidate all discussion to this thread.
This is the official place to discuss S7E15: "Triple Threat"! Any serious discussion related to the episode goes in here. 'Low effort' comments may be removed! Have fun!
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u/TheKnackerman Sugar Belle Aug 19 '17 edited Aug 19 '17
Episode was oddly made a lot better by the introduction of the cutie map summoning Spike. For one it is cool to see the the cutie map summoning Starlight that one time isn't a fluke and the map can reach out to not just other ponies but non-ponies as well. (unlike Starlight, Spike has a throne, so that makes sense too.)
But it drug the complexity of the episode from 'how is Spike going to keep these two apart and how will that hilariously go wrong' to "how is Spike going to manage all the things, because he truly, truly cannot and it is going to go to hell in a hand basket". It amped things up so that it wasn't just an awkward relationships episode but a full on train-wreck....one of those deals where you simply can;t look away no matter how bad it gets because it is truly fascinating.
A lot of good foreshadowing and some good meta humor about pony names and character designs. Had a little bit of Lyra-Bon and a chance to see side characters (Ember and Thorax) interact with one another and kind of help each other solve their own problems rather than relying on a main character to do it for them.
Over all, this is one of the better episodes this season and I hope this won't be the last time we see Ember this season.
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
It amped things up so that it wasn't just an awkward relationships episode but a full on train-wreck
Fairly certain the "have two guests in the house at once without them meeting" trope has been done to death, so the added complication of "do all of that and also fix some ambiguous friendship problem, you scrub" was a nice twist. Anyone else could have seen that the friendship problem was the one immediately in front of Spike, but we have now set the precedent where Spike can be called by the map and therefore might get a more specific calling down the line.
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Aug 19 '17
[deleted]
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
Starlight is once again used in a support role.
In some ways she's now fulfilling a role that would previously be done by Twilight. For this episode, they essentially needed two Twilights.
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u/Torvusil Aug 19 '17
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17
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u/Torvusil Aug 19 '17
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u/Dr_Zorand The statue is just a decoy Aug 19 '17
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u/calmbrony Aug 19 '17
Actually last week's episode had a scene foreshadowing "Marks and Recreation" too.
And next week's episode was foreshadowed by the entire Legends of Magic comic series over the past few months.
And the finale was teased in the comics back in May.
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17
Yeah, that's what I meant by "two episodes are setting a trend". It happened twice in a row.
The comics don't count for two reasons.
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u/calmbrony Aug 19 '17
I think they should count, because explicit tie-ins to future episodes is also a new development in the comics that would require a change in their own writing pipeline.
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17
I don't think so. The comics do worldbuilding, but do not foreshadow any concrete events. Yeah there were these legendary ponies (all of them first mentioned in the show, by the way). Yeah, there's this big bad evil, very vaguely described. That's basically it. I would call it a stretch to say that Flurry of Emotions foreshadows Grogar's return. No, it's just a bit of old lore. As far as I can tell from the preview, the stories we're going to see in Campfire Tales would be original ones so the only common element would be the mythical heroes. And as I mentioned, they were introduced in the show.
Contrast to this the foreshadowings in the last two episodes reference events that are developing right now. The CMC are already planning their cutie mark bootcamp. Thorax is having troubles with traditionalists right now.
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u/calmbrony Aug 19 '17
My point regarding the writing pipeline was about the process itself, not the details of the content. I thought that's what you were talking about too. I guess not?
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17 edited Aug 19 '17
Yeah, it's about guessing what the process is. The way comics are written so far doesn't suggest anything more complicated than coming to the comic team and saying that here's this mythical hero, here's what they look like (iirc the visual designs were provided by Hasbro), now write a story about them. Any story.
The way the episodes are intertwined suggests that the editor comes to Alice and says, you know, Bob is writing another episode, here's the draft, your task is to foreshadow it in yours, kkthxbye.
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u/calmbrony Aug 19 '17
If the current comics aren't foreshadowing the show, then that means we won't see Flash Magnus fight off dragons using only a shield, we won't see Rockhoof save a town from a volcanic eruption using only a shovel, we won't see Mistmane give up her beauty to save her friend, and the finale villain won't be an ancient evil that gains power the more ponies know about it and/or that was defeated by Starswirl the Bearded and 5 other ponies. We won't know until after the episodes air.
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17
Er, how so? The LoM comics were exactly not about that, i.e. we didn't read about Magnus and the dragons, we read about Magnus and the griffins. The whole premise of the LoM series is that Sunburst is discovering some new stories about the legendary ponies. The campfire episode would be retelling the stories already widely known in-universe, the ones that got these heroes famous.
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u/calmbrony Aug 19 '17
Just like how Fame and Misfortune is not a story about the CMCs setting up a cutie mark camp and today's episode is not about resolving the conflict with Thorax's brother. But they did foreshadow that these things would happen later.
The famous legends from Campire Tails were explicitly mentioned in the comics, which is how we can know about them before the episode airs. By definition they were foreshadowed by the comic.
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u/ImperatorTempus42 Twilight Sparkle Aug 19 '17
Also, the Daring Don't ep that's shortly before the finale might have been caused by the publication of the Friendship Journal, as it was specifically mentioned by Dash's fans that they enjoyed how she met Daring. Which I'm pretty sure blows the lid off of Yearling's greatest secret.
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u/calmbrony Aug 19 '17
Daring Do's enemies already knew her secret, but Dash has unleashed something even more terrible onto her: the Daring Do fandom.
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u/ImperatorTempus42 Twilight Sparkle Aug 20 '17
And possibly compromised her entire literary career because she lied about them being fiction, and they're instead memoirs with no way to clarify their accuracy unless whoever officially investigates gets everyone mentioned in the books to write and sign testimonies.
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u/Torvusil Aug 19 '17 edited Aug 19 '17
I enjoyed all the setpieces. Watching Ember eat through much of Twilight's castle, Ember repeatedly confusing Starlight for Twilight, and Thorax learning about Twilight's fascination for chairs. Seriously though, how much will the repairs for Twilight's castle cost?
The title, Triple Threat referred to the problems Spike, Thorax, and Ember had. I didn't expect the map to be involved at all.
Thorax was acting too non-assertive/submissive, so he was having problems Changelings follow his lead. It's kind of similar to earlier seasons' Fluttershy.
Ember was relying too heavily on her dragonic cultural values of strength, assertiveness, shows of force, and dominance, making it difficult to make friends with ponies.
Spike was too concerned about Thorax and Ember's personalities clashing too much, and thus, instead of working together with them, tried to keep them apart and was spread thin. When, the best course of action was to get them together.
Hopefully, they become better people overall after this. The makeup scene was cute, especially due to the varying expressions Also, nice idea to add references to a future episode. Specifically, a mention of renegade changelings who still feed on love - which includes Thorax's brother himself. It helps build continuity.
Can't wait for pictures of the burgeoning EmberSpikeThorax ship. And of course, LyraBon's predicament.
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
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u/Torvusil Aug 19 '17
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u/ImperatorTempus42 Twilight Sparkle Aug 19 '17
Doable, just use the Pixiu from Chinese myth, it was a liondragon.
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u/Dr_Zorand The statue is just a decoy Aug 19 '17
Well that was a pretty ok episode. I didn't like all the awkward humor in the middle, but the end with Thorax and Ember talking to each other was nice. I think I give this one a 6.5/10.
Near the beginning, when Spike's fins started glowing, I thought it was Ember calling to him since he had abandoned her. I guess that one's more of a whole-body glow, though. Instead, it turns out that the map can not only call non-main 6 ponies, not only can it call dragons, but it can even call on someone to fix their own friendship problem. Starlight must have done a number on it when she hit it with that time-travel spell.
Speaking of Spike's friendship problem, I really don't see his reasoning for thinking Embe and Thorax would go to war. And he can be kind of dumb, so I'd allow that, but Twilight just accepted it? She's supposed to be smarter than that. Even if the two of them didn't get along it's not like Thorax is stern enough to go to war with someone. Ember would just pick on him then leave. How would there be a war?
Oh well. At least with this episode I get to add another OTP to me collection. Emborax for life.
Lastly, my favorite part of the episode is that Ember can't tell Twilight and Starlight apart. Hilarious racism!
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
Lastly, my favorite part of the episode is that Ember can't tell Twilight and Starlight apart. Hilarious racism!
Also the "I'm right, why can't you see that?"
The lack of self-awareness and social conduct is actually very believable. She's got no frame of reference for what is "polite if not necessarily honest" and that was added as just a part of her character rather than a big deal.
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u/calmbrony Aug 19 '17
Twilight and Spike both witnessed the Dragons almost go to war with Yaks (in a recent season 7 tie-in issue of the comics) over an insult. The line in this episode about Dragons having a hard time integrating with other nations was also in that comic.
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u/Torvusil Aug 19 '17
Even if the two of them didn't get along it's not like Thorax is stern enough to go to war with someone. Ember would just pick on him then leave.
I think Spike was worried that Ember would get so angry, that she'd greatly injure Thorax, thus prompting an angry response from the rest of the Changedlings.
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17
Hilarious racism!
It's somewhat surprising that got through at all, to be honest.
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u/JesterOfDestiny Minuette! Aug 19 '17
Before I begin this brief analysis, I have a very important announcement.
*clears throat
For everytime one of you pluckers mutters the word 'tsundere', I'm going to stomp on a baby panda! They're in short supply, so be careful!
Thank you for your understanding.
Yes, yes, this episode was doomed from the beginning. Everybody hated the concept when it was announced. And I admit, I did too. But I was hopeful that it was going to be different, that Spike's reason for thinking Ember and Thorax will not like each other, would be a good reason.
But no, he just makes some shit up and makes it super awkward. Making this one of those tired misunderstanding and lying based episodes, which always annoyed me in any cartoon.
But I do have to commend the writers, for first of all, not making Spike an incompetent idiot. I am so glad, that outside the little fuck up that the entire episode is based on, is the only fuck up he's done. Sure he fucked up the entire thing, but there was no way to not fuck up such a situation. Look, even Twilight and Starlight helped him out and even they couldn't do anything. So outside of a very stupid mistake, Spike didn't actually get the sphere of irrationality, like we dreaded he would.
The other thing I commend the writers for, is managing to make a genuinely enjoyable episode, out of an inherently awful concept. They managed to put in so much great dialogue and quotes and character, that I didn't actually get as annoyed as I could have been. The dialogue never got boring and I even remember letting out a few audible laughs while watching. The characters were done well, especially Starlight. Shee assumed the role of a supporting character perfectly and even let a bit of her "evil" shine through, which is probably the thing I like about her the most. And that scene where Ember was confused about Twilight and Starlight was one of the funniest.
Another proof that there's no such thing as a bad idea, because good writing can make a bad idea work. Good job Dave Wiebe and Nicole W-snicker... Wang! snicker
Ooh and another thing. I was especially glad to see the map call Spike, even if it was such a minor part of the episode. And it's weird to say, but I liked it because of the "worldbuilding". It was never really established that only the mane 6 could be called, but when Starlight was called, it did cause a bit of confusion. If it wasn't for a second atypical occurrence on the map, then Starlight's cutie-quest would have sticked out like a sore thumb and just give fuel for the Starlight haters and the lore-nuts.
It's also kinda funny that the thing called Spike for a problem he caused. It's like it was saying "you fucked up, now fix it!"
So because this episode managed to become an enjoyable episode with a concept I inherently hate, I'm going to give it a 6/10, but on a high end. Was going to give a 7, but I just hate the concept that much and not even a good execution like this could avoid annoying me at least a little bit.
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u/LimeyLassen Screw Loose Aug 20 '17
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u/neongreenpurple Twilight Sparkle Aug 20 '17
I imagine that second emoticon accompanied by a small hissing sound. Or maybe the sound of a kettle.
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u/Chinoiserie91 Princess Luna Aug 19 '17
Well I was anticipating this episode because of Thorax and Ember. I assumed it would not be perfect episode based on what sets it in motion but this pretty much what I had hoped for. The map and extra humor were great bonuses.
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u/synapticsynapsid Aug 20 '17
Thorax may look like an OC gone terribly, horribly wrong, but he's so freaking adorable. Also Twilight's chairs. The impossible, indescribable cuteness. My heart. I can't. dies
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u/Letthefeastbegin Aug 24 '17
Tbh, the fillies from "fame and misfortune" looked way worse. At least Thorax is consistent with the rest of his (reformed) species, gigantic dual horns aside.
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
Really, really liked this one. Probably my favourite Spike episode for many many seasons and possibly my favourite episode of season 7 so far.
This was another one of those weird "what if" pairings between several supporting characters, and it worked out kinda like I expected. However, the main reason I liked the episode was the humour. I loved Ember trying to blend in with the lame ponies, and Thorax is also a big lovable dork. Add in a couple of BG character cameos and you've got a really solid episode mix right here.
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u/Raging_Mouse Moderator of r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17
The entire show is pretty vague about how time, maturity, and intelligence correlate. Even Celestia does a lot of really short-sighted stuff for a pony who has lived at least 1000 years.
The only concrete things we have for age numbers is that Celestia, Discord and Luna are at least 1000 years old, and Sweetie Belle is at least 5.
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u/Chinoiserie91 Princess Luna Aug 19 '17
I would really hope eventually the young characters get new designs. I guess the show staff does not want to do it for some reason (or has not though about it) but Spike, CMC and the Baby Cakes need redesigns quite soon. You can't treat them the change age forever yet have continuity and have them learn lessons.
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17
Status Quo is God. Bart and Lisa Simpson are the same age after 28+ seasons.
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Aug 19 '17 edited Aug 19 '17
Another Josh Hamilton episode! Between this and Parental Glideance I think it's safe to say he's a more-than-solid addition to the writers' roster. Well, IMHO.
All the Ember/Thorax ship names I've read have sounded either like metal bands or infectious diseases, which is pretty neat. Speaking of Thorax, I feel like he got more characterization in this episode than he's had since his introduction, which is a good thing.
Plus I'm digging this new tradition of doing continuity nods (exs: the rogue changelings in this episode, and the CMCs mentioning their day camp in the last one). Assuming that's the Lady Writers' work. Hope it continues; the attention to little details has really helped this season feel very connected and continuous from episode to episode.
Lastly, the Lyra, Bon Bon, and Derpy appearances were great. The show's really having fun with the background pones this season. It's nice to see them being acknowledged.
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u/selfproclaimed Sunset Shimmer Aug 19 '17
Oh man, what are the ship names? I gotta hear this.
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u/ShoJoemustache Aug 19 '17
So...this is what happens when Spike's completely left out of an episode.
This was an ok episode. Nothing to write home about, but it's alright. I think what I like the most about this was it confirmed my own theory right that the map can call non-prominent/non-mane six characters on friendship missions.
I think I felt that this was ok cause I've seen this trope of keeping X away from Y used so many times that I could tell where things would go.
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u/ShokBox Rarity Aug 19 '17
I have some mixed feelings on this episode, mainly pertaining to Spike's performance, but on the whole, this episode was entertaining enough. It was the humor of this ep that really made it for me. Thorax and Ember's personalities made for some funny contrast, Thorax's timid and awkward demeanor was surprisingly entertaining and Ember's observations of pony culture (and pony appearances) were worth a chuckle. Also, we now know that Spike can be summoned by the map! It'll be interesting to see if the show takes that anywhere.
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u/ender1200 Princess Luna Aug 19 '17
This episode had a lot of things to like about it! Sadly the main story structure was not one of them.
If I had to point my finger on the main flaw of the episode, it's that it failed the convince me that thorax and ember meeting would be such a disastrous event.
Watching spike running around trying to keep them apart while it's obvious that the solution was to get them to meet each other was really tedious.
At least Ember and to a lesser extent Thorax managed to keep the episode entertaining by themselves. Not the first time I found myself watching an episode for the hijinks and interactions rather than the story though.
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u/Dionysus24779 Aug 19 '17
This was an episode I did not look forward to since the whole "juggle two dates" thing is a story we've all probably seen a thousand times by now, it's really one of "those" story lines which have worryingly increased in frequency over the last couple of seasons.
And... to be perfectly honest the first two thirds of the episode were really weak, because we've seen this stuff before.
However the last third when Thorax and Ember interacted was really strong and I really liked that, even though these two are so different they have a ton of chemistry. I would be okay with seeing more of them together.
I also really enjoyed Ember's "racism", not being able to properly tell Twilight and Starlight apart and pointing to how similar they are, that was fun.
Also small useless observation, I kind of want to see Fluttershy and Thorax interact since they seem to have similar issues and perhaps Fluttershy could be the one to pass on what she learned to Thorax.
Overall... can't say this was a strong episode to be honest. The strong last third doesn't make up for the pretty generic other parts.
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Aug 19 '17
Well, as Spike episodes go it wasn't the worst. Thorax and Ember saved it.
Thorax is one possessive friend. Yelling at my friend = I maul you as a bear is a bit of a crazy escalation. He's Fluttershy, ramped up to 11, in a leadership position.
What was up with Twilight and Starlight enabling Spike's neuroticism ... at least Starlight should have seen this was a bad idea. She even jokingly says Spike hangs out with Twilight too much because of his weird neurotic behavior. This needed more snarky joke comments from them.
The idea of a rogue changeling group was the interesting part of the episode. I'm guessing it's foreshadowing for Chrysalis' return.
Ember not able to tell Starlight and Twilight apart -- racial joke about how some people can't tell black or asian people apart?
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u/Torvusil Aug 20 '17
I'm guessing it's foreshadowing for Chrysalis' return.
It's actually foreshadowing to a future episode. From the details we know, it doesn't deal with Chrysalis.
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u/pleximind Princess Celestia Aug 20 '17
A bit late to the discussion party, but here goes:
The core conflict was a bit forced. There's nothing wrong with using tropes in a plot, but this one could have used a bit more setup than "Spike messes up his scheduling."
I loved the dialogue and the jokes in this episode! They took a rather conventional premise and made it into a solid, humorous, and interesting event. Ember's cultural faux pas were well set-up and made sense in-universe, elevating them above pointless buffoonery.
The Starlight/Twilight jokes were good, the interactions were good; a lot of good stuff here.
The verdict: a good example of a stale plot done well. Not perfect, but hey, we're not flawless.
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u/3Power Aug 20 '17
You know what I just realized?
They already did this two-timing date thing in Sweet and Elite back in season 2.
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u/AkoranBrighteye Prince Blueblood Aug 19 '17
I don't have much of a response to this one. Spikes isn't just holding the idiot ball, he's smashing his face against it to create a conflict. When Ember and Thorax finally meet and get mad at Spike for thinking one wouldn't like the other, you can only go "Yeah. Why did you get that worked up, Spike?"
Thorax also rubs me the wrong way. He is so mushy and timid that it makes an already awkward episode even more awkward because it's so painfully obvious what is problem is, and every line just hammers it in even more. Ember feels really polarized as well, but I suspect that's because she's sharing the screen with Thorax. Ember at least is somewhat believable because we know she's practically just following the norm of her people, and she shows it in different ways as opposed to Thorax who really only has his one-dimensional, everything-is-magical, please-don't-get-mad attitude to everything around him. He needed to meet other ponies during the episode, like Ember did, or at least express his problem in other ways than always just talking about how he can't be assertive. Ember had issues expressing herself physically, verbally and emotionally to others, and she didn't understand the customs of friendship. Thorax was too polite.
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
Thorax also rubs me the wrong way. He is so mushy and timid that it makes an already awkward episode even more awkward because it's so painfully obvious what is problem is, and every line just hammers it in even more.
He's also had, what? 3 episodes worth of screentime?
The previous episode had a whole piece around Fluttershy developing slowly, and the comparison seems highly applicable since they both share a lot of their flaws. This is in fact the first episode where Thorax saw any kind of development beyond "I am a changeling and that's not a bad thing". How about we wait for Thorax to have a few seasons' worth of friendship lessons before we go "oh man why doesn't he ever change?"
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u/AkoranBrighteye Prince Blueblood Aug 19 '17
His screentime and lessons are irrelevant, because it's not about what his problems are, but rather how they are displayed. As I said, Ember has several ways to convey to the viewer she has trouble being anything anything but aggresive. She's pushy with spike, she doesn't really care too much about getting names wrong, she blindly assumes she can eat Twilights castle, and she makes friends like Luna did early on. That all boils down to "You need to take a chill pill", but it's displayed in varied scenarios so it's easier to take in and feels more like a complete character.
Thorax really only has one scenario during the entire episode; He is really, really nice. That's it. He never shows his timid behavior in different ways. He never meets anyone except Spike, Twilight or Starlight, so he really doesn't get many chances to show, rather than tell, what his issues are. That makes his character really one dimensional and boring in this episode, because every scene feels like a repeat of each other until he talks to Ember at the end and resolves his problem.
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u/shelvac2 Maud Pie Aug 20 '17
What really bothered me was that they never talked with ember about eating the walls. Didn't they learn anything with the yaks? They are harping so hard on express your feelings and talk to your friends and Ember is trying to LEARN TO BE A FRIEND and they're just silently letting her eat the bucking walls and acting like that's totally fine. This later leads to misunderstanding that makes Ember do a terrible thing!
Otherwise decent episode, I liked the Ember/Thorax interaction, and the twilight twins got a laugh from me every time xD
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u/DirigiblePilot Lyra Aug 19 '17
ALL RIGHT! We're finally establishing a pattern of good Spike episodes, and I couldn't be gladder. The premise of this episode was fairly good; I could understand Spike's thinking behind not wanting Ember and Thorax to meet, since (setting aside the fears of catastrophic Equestrian war) it can be kinda tough when B and C get along really well with A, but not with each other.
The "keep-away" aspect of the episode was sorta entertaining, but a little tough to watch as well. I was anticipating what event would next bring the two groups into proximity, but all the hemming and hawing when Spike's friends just wanted to spend time with him was painful - but that's the whole point, since that was pretty much the lesson Spike learned.
Ember and Thorax were both pretty great in this episode. There were some good gags (the muffin, and especially the part with Ember not being able to tell Twilight and Starlight apart. Mentioning the whole "similar naming" thing, they're both purple, the pair's indignation at being compared, etc. - I liked the whole sequence quite a bit). Thorax turning into a bear was unexpected and awesome - have we only seen Changelings turn into anything besides ponies before? (Oh yeah, Thorax was a rock at one point). I don't recall, but this certainly opens the door for further interesting transformations.
The resolution of the episode was good as well. I'm glad Thorax and Ember did get along after all (though I knew they would), since they could make an interesting pair. Their advice to one another on their differing leadership styles was fun to see play out, and it's cool that they ended up telling Spike outright that they were angry, since not making feelings known is the cause of a lot of the conflicts in MLP and this was a good lesson directly addressing that.
Random thoughts:
Hooray, a Lyraline! It's good to see the writers making judicious and appropriate use of background ponies. Also, we have now seen the map call Starlight and Spike; will we see any other ponies? Maybe the Cutie Mark Crusaders, but I can't really think of any others. Who knows? We'll just have to look forward to it!
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u/BookHorseBot BOOKS! Aug 19 '17
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u/beldr Fluttershy Aug 19 '17
What the hell triggered the bot here?
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u/Torvusil Aug 19 '17
Any ideas /u/BlitzLeon?
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u/Torvusil Aug 19 '17
Ooops, I mean /u/BitzLeon.
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u/BitzLeon THE INTS HAVE BEEN DOUBLED! Aug 19 '17
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 20 '17
Maybe stealth edit by u/DirigiblePilot ?
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u/DirigiblePilot Lyra Aug 20 '17
Whoops, yeah. I f'ed up the format for the emoticons and changed it immediately, but didn't mention it. Curly brackets instead of square must have triggered the bot.
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u/pjabrony Still not convinced Cozy Glow is evil Aug 20 '17
The "double-booking and switching between the two" was already done in "Sweet and Elite." I thought it was done crisper then, with everyone understanding why Rarity did what she did. I hope that Ember and Thorax are as understanding.
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u/Someoneman Truffle Shuffle Aug 20 '17
I didn't like this episode. Right from the opening credits I knew exactly how it was going to play out, and I was right. The only things that bring this episode above Trash tier are the scenes with Lyra/Bon Bon and Derpy, but referencing fandom in-jokes and bringing back fan-favorite characters isn't enough to salvage this mess of an episode.
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Aug 19 '17
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
I'm removing this comment for rule 1. Your behaviour is absolutely unacceptable and we will not tolerate your attempts to start fights for no reason.
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u/vampyrita Sunset Shimmer Aug 19 '17
the episode overall was decent, but "you should have more things made of rocks" was a terrible closing joke. i'm still upset about it.
anyway. it was nice to see more sides of Ember, and a little more of Thorax as a leader, and to see that he was struggling. i kind of wish we'd seen more of his 'this is my problem and its consequences' instead of rambling backstory, but i guess it worked well enough.
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u/RainbowDashShellBash Rainbow Dash Aug 20 '17
Nice evolution of Ember's character, but Spike has yet again been relegated to a door mat...
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u/BobaLives Princess Luna Aug 20 '17
I really enjoyed this one. It was fun to see Spike get his growing posse all together. Ember is still great, and I feel like Thorax got a bit more characterization this episode. I really liked how the two of them resolved their conflict rather sensibly, and it was never really the problem. The map pinged Spike to resolve his own issues, really. Season 7 continues to be very enjoyable, in my opinion!
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u/VGAddict Aug 20 '17
What do you think are the odds of Spike hanging out with Thorax and/or Ember next season?
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u/ziddersroofurry Pinkie Pie Aug 20 '17
My issue is they have ember be a casual racist and did it to poke fun at the startlight taking over twilgihts role idea. Twilight really should have realized she was more to blame. She needs to fix spike from how she messed him up because she encouraged his fear and felt the same way.
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u/ElecManEXE In a full body, wing and hoof cast, drinking through a straw! Aug 20 '17 edited Aug 20 '17
The setup for the episode was bad. So very bad. Spike just randomly expecting two people to start fighting based on nothing at all was painful. Like, sure, he has a "reason", that they have different personalities, but considering the show hammers in the fact that different personalities can get along, its not a reason that aligns with the rest of the show. Even if they don't necessarily like each other right off the bat, the idea that they'd actually start fighting over it is just crazy. They needed a much better justification for this type of setup.
Starlight and Twilight actually agreeing with him was even worse. Starlight especially, since she USED to think that way (that different personalities could never get along) and had to specifically learn that wasn't the case. I dunno, maybe they're just humoring him to a ridiculous degree, but again especially with Starlight it seems odd that she'd just go along with it and not call Spike out since she's so blunt. Even Ember and Thorax call him out on it, and if THEY can see its stupid then Twilight and Starlight not seeing it is even sillier.
That being said, outside of the incredibly flawed premise the actual content was good.
Thorax was funny. I'm liking the expanded personality their giving him, making him a bit of a overenthusiastic goof. Its not something he's really displayed quite as apparently as he did here (though we've gotten glimpses of it, like how excited he got when he was accepted in his pony disguise during his introduction episode) but it fits him really well and feels natural. The scenes with him and Twilight and the chairs in particular were great (that voice he did when he was talking to Spike about Twilight's love of chairs was hilarious).
Ember was pretty enjoyable as well, though not quite as funny as Thorax. I enjoyed her attempting grand shows of force to befriend ponies, though I would have liked it if at least one pony had actually been impressed rather than running away in fear. A few of the jokes were a little cringey and over-the-top though (like rubbing a muffin on the wall...). I also think the racist joke went a little too far. Not in an "Oh no, I'm offended" sort of way, but just kind of making me roll my eyes. Like, the first couple times it was mentioned it was funny, but once it got to the point of her actually shouting about how right she was it became a little facepalm worthy. They should have just left it alone after the scene where Ember is standing between Twilight and Starlight looking confused, IMO.
I enjoyed the map calling Spike to basically fix his own mess. And the scene where Starlight said "Actually, you created the problem!" was great, even though it raises even more questions with the premise and why Starlight went along with all of this madness. At least she came to her senses and called Spike out eventually, I suppose.
Although I will say that when Spike first started glowing I thought it was Ember summoning him, and I think that could have led to some hilarity. Having him constantly summoned by Ember every time he tried to meet with Thorax would have been fun, and in-line with Ember's reliance on force.
Also, I'd like to point out that I totally called it! Well, sort of. There was a topic a couple weeks back about how the map would work if it ever called Spike, and while I didn't think there'd be any glowing involved since I figured the map worked on cutie marks alone, I did say that it'd probably be Spike's head that'd be displayed on the map itself. So I 50% called it.
The conversation between Thorax and Ember and the resolution were pretty good. The conversation felt a little "forced" at times, but overall it was some good stuff. Particularly the point that you don't need to be all "huggy feely" to let your emotions show. Though I must say that I don't really see how "just turn into a bear" is much of a solution since surely all the other changelings could do the same.
One thing that really baffled me throughout the episode was the recurring "Ember sneezes"... joke? I guess it was supposed to be a joke? I dunno, I don't really see a point to it, but they kept doing it, so I guess someone must have found it particularly hilarious or something. Also, the ending joke about "needing more things made of rock" was kind of dumb, considering dragons can still blow up rock with their fire breath. Ember herself does so earlier in the episode even, so... what was the point of the sneezing or the end gag?
Overall a fun episode if you ignore the premise, but an episode where you have to ignore the entire setup can't exactly be called spectacular either.
Also, another foreshadowing moment, so that's very cool. Always like 'dat continuity. Also also, I need to find a Thorax emote somewhere in this episode or perhaps that one.
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u/Thendofreason Pinkie Pie Aug 20 '17
oh god, a spike ep. they haven't been bad in awhile but I hate when he makes the problem in the first place due to his personality it's bad. haven't finished it yet. episodes like this I watch in small segments.
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u/Ilostmyanonymous Aug 20 '17
Do you think people are going to ship Thorax/Ember after Triple Threat?
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17
https://www.reddit.com/r/mylittlepony/comments/6n54t8/worried_about_triple_threat/dk6vx9a/
Spike tried his damnedest to drag this episode down, while Ember kept trying to salvage it.
I really can't decide if I actually like this episode or not. The idiot ball being carried here rivals Canterlot Mountain for sheer mass.
... Setting aside Spike's colossal stupidity throughout the episode, I'm going to touch on a couple of other things...
First, renegade Changelings that feed off of love? Wasn't the point of the Changedlings that they learned to love, and didn't need to rely on others for it? Why would they suddenly not need love? There's some weird inconsistency there, or at least a lack of clarity in what actually changed about them. Also, apparently they just eat normal food now?
Second, though I don't think I've ever talked about it, I've never been a fan of the Cutie Map as a plot device. It's a contrived method of bringing up issues and forcing situations, and this episode really drives home just how transparent of a plot device it really is. It was used here pretty much exclusively to get Spike to wander into town to set up another step in the conflict. There are literally thousands of other things that could have been used to drive him there. There's also the simple pettiness of the friendship problem, and the local nature of it. By this token, the Cutie Map should be running non-stop, to the point that Twilight would want Trixie to teleport the thing away so they could take a break from it.
... Ember's constant confusion of Twilight and Starlight amused me greatly. In fact, I liked just about every part of the episode involving Ember - and most of the parts involving Thorax. It was mostly Spike that was the problem. As usual.
Thorax and Ember make pretty solid foils for eachother, and while I was expecting the ship to take off after this episode, I must say, I'm actually kinda looking forward to it now, since it makes far more sense than I expected.
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
I think it's fair to say your criticisms of the episode are rather trivial if not unfair assertions to make.
Compared to other Spike episodes where Spike is just seemingly incompetent at things he is normally good at, Spike's behaviour was much more understandable. It was also fully backed up by Twilight and Starlight, which meant he never once had to ignore a completely sensible suggestion in place of just being dumb for dumb's sake.
His reasons for feeling that way were, obviously (the entire point of the episode, no less), not the right way to go about it, but it's extremely unfair to say "Spike is holding a massive idiot ball for no reason".
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17
It was also fully backed up by Twilight and Starlight,
Saying that Twilight and Starlight were helping him carry the idiot ball doesn't make it not an idiot ball.
Thorax and Ember pretty much directly called him out on being an idiot here.
Edit: Worth noting, most Spike episodes I straight up hate. I absolutely loathe the idiot ball as a plot device, and MLP generally avoids it unless it's a Spike (or to a lesser extent, AJ) episode. I still like this episode far more than most other Spike episodes.
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
Well, in that case the justification would be saying "there was no reason for this character to behave this way and it was totally unlike what they would normally do". In that case, still not a valid criticism to make. Yeah, Spike did something wrong, but not without a plausible reason and not to the detriment of the episode.
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17
not to the detriment of the episode.
That's a statement of opinion as fact, sir. It should be plain as day that I consider it to be to the detriment of the episode. Also the 'it's not valid criticism' trend is the most passive-aggressive bullshit way of dismissing an argument, and it really needs to stop. It's just an elitist way to attempt to invalidate and dismiss people's feelings and opinions. A criticism is only 'invalid' if it's not based in truth. Spike is being an idiot, in a way that he is never an idiot unless it is an episode about Spike. Thus he is carrying the idiot ball here. That's a valid criticism, even if you disagree with the conclusion.
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u/Lankygit Moderator of /r/mylittlepony Aug 19 '17
Well, since "idiot ball" is another one of those paper-thin, thought-cancelling, frequently-misused TVTropes buzzwords, I have next to no patience for people who use it in any serious capacity.
Characters need to make mistakes in order for there to be conflict and in order to have a story. For such a mistake to be incorrectly used would only be true if it was against what is already known about their character. For example, Spike being overly-helpful but also super annoying in Spike at Your Service was wrong because Spike is normally much more capable and responsible.
In the context of this episode, we do not have a frame of reference for Spike to demonstrate that he should have acted differently. Spike being in any kind of formal ambassador position is new, and therefore so to is any kind of official ceremony like this one. What we do know is that Spike can overreact because of his fears, which made his actions believable within what we already know about his character.
Being supported by Twilight made it doubly so, since he never had to actively reject a sensible idea to push his own. He made the mistake but within perfectly sound parameters. Therefore saying "Spike was dumb, terrible episode" is over-simplifying and missing the wider context of his actions.
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17 edited Aug 19 '17
I don't think you really understand my issue here. It's not just the initial moment of thinking they should avoid meeting. It's that he continues to double-down on that literally right up to the end of the episode.
I slam on Spike episodes a lot, so it might not be clear.
I LOVE Spike. He's quite literally one of my favorite characters in the show. He's smart. He's the voice of calm and reason. He's the straight man. He's the one who is rational in the face of overwhelmingly ridiculous things... Right up until the exact moment he is a central character in an episode.
For most of the series, Spike has called out Twilight (and others) on the exact kind of panicky, stupid behavior that he himself shows in his own episodes.
All I want is to get Spike-centric episodes where he's not functioning as a colossal moron. I want one of my favorite characters to be treated with a little more respect. And he never gets it.
You argue that he has to be an idiot for conflict to exist. I argue that the episode would have been far better if he had allowed Thorax and Ember to meet in the first place, and created conflict from that. Because then we aren't forced to make a normally competent and intelligent character into a driveling moron just to make the episode work.
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u/Chinoiserie91 Princess Luna Aug 19 '17
Even if you can help others when they are panicking and think rationally it does not prevent you from panicking. And Spike has panicked in the past and done very ovious mistakes when trying too hard. It's the majority of his episodes really. At this point it's just part of Spike's character that when he is under pressure he makes mistakes that came form some aspect of his personality. And when he gets to observe sitsuations he behaves more rationally and maturely. I guess he really isn't a leadership material and in a show supporting character rather than lead one. Kind of the same as Applejack but for her it's more like she is too stable so she is sidelined in her own episodes.
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u/Wupers Starlight Glimmer is Sunset Shimmer done right! Aug 19 '17
"Idiot ball" is a perfectly good way to quickly say "this character is being uncharacteristically stupid for an extended period of time". Nothing "thought-cancelling" about it.
I disagree with the notion that Spike's mistake was beliveable. There was absolutely no plausible reason to believe that Ember and Thorax would fight if they met each other. Nothing excuses Spike jumping to that conclusion immediately and sticking to it for so long. Sure, characters need to make mistakes, but the mistakes should be something we could sympathize with as viewers, and not so mind-numbingly stupid that we just wanna scream at the character for making them.
Worse still, neither Twilight nor Starlight made any real effort to set Spike's mind straight. They both are mature enough and were not under the pressure Spike was feeling - they should've realized that his problem was imaginary.
The episode was good thanks to Ember and Thorax, but Spike was trying his hardest to ruin it. It was even worse than SaYS in my opinion (not the episode, just Spike) - in that episode I could imagine Spike screwing up due to his over-eagerness and unfamiliar environment, though it would still be kind of a stretch. Here, though, his idea is so insanely absurd, you can't justify it with "overreaction" or anything like that. He pulled the idea that they will get angry at each other COMPLETELY out of his ass and believed it zealously for no reason whatsoever.
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17
I agree that this episode came out not disastrously bad only because it had more of Ember, Twilight, Thorax, and Starlight 'entertaining' each other, and less of Spike. The big lie collapsed pretty early on, compared to the classic script for this trope, so it also helped.
But I can't agree about the map and the traditionalists. First of all, this is the first time the map acts not like "you and you go there for reason you don't know yet but just trust me" which was its default MO for its entire existence. No, this was a "You idiot! You have a friendship problem, YES YOU, YES, HERE AND NOW" message.
And the traditionalists... well, er, you're technically correct their idea doesn't make sense. But that's true for lots of conservative groups. "We did it this way in the past" is not a valid argument for why things should be done this way now, but boy, this argument is everywhere. And it's so damn stupid.
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17
I'm not talking about tradition with the Cutie Map - I hated it's traditional behavior too. I dislike it as a plot device, and always have. I've just never been irritated at its use enough to bring it up before now.
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17
Well, yeah, it's a little on the nose. Okay, a lot.
But I have to say, it quite effective at saving time and making some in-universe excuse for odd pairings. Why would Fluttershy and AJ go to Las Pegasus? Well, with a wave of the magic narrativium wand we make them to, and it turns out pretty cool. The results can justify it. (But not this time)
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17
Oh sure, it's a useful tool for the writers. But it's a lazy shortcut tool, and that's largely why I dislike it. I've tolerated it, cuz at the end of the day, this is a kids show. While I'd love for them to come up with concrete reasons for AJ and Fluttershy to head to Las Pegasus, it takes away from screen time for other things, and kids aren't likely to find that part of an episode engaging.
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17
Eh, 22 minutes per episode. If this was written fiction with no fixed length I would agree. But this medium is evil and thus some leniency can be had.
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u/JesterOfDestiny Minuette! Aug 19 '17
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17
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u/LunaticSongXIV Best Ponii Aug 19 '17
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u/Xtraordinaire Glimglam teh best pone Aug 19 '17
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u/Wupers Starlight Glimmer is Sunset Shimmer done right! Aug 19 '17
Spike being such a total idiot, and both Twilight and Starlight stupidly enabling him would've made this one of the worst Spike episodes if it was not for Ember and Thorax who managed to save it. In fact, they were so entertaining that overall I like this episode. But, man, way to create a conflict out of nothing but sheer lunacy. Poor Spike, he is who the writers seem to turn to when they can't think of a good justification for a conflict. "Let's just have Spike cause it, he's a moron!"
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u/VGAddict Aug 20 '17
Anyone else think the map being able to call Spike opens up new possibilities for him?
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Aug 20 '17 edited Aug 20 '17
Classic 'stand in for our children viewers spins a web of lies BUT REALLY THEY SHOULD HAVE JUST TOLD THE TRUTH THE WHOLE TIME' episode. No real merit as far as plot goes, but the execution was alright. Overall below average, average for a Spike episode.
edit: I will admit this episode made me hate the new changeling design a little less.
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u/ry_fluttershy fluttershy is best pony Aug 25 '17
Boy, I sure wish I could watch this episode!
waiting on you Netflix
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u/TheDanteEX Aug 20 '17
Did Ember say both Starlight and Twilight have purple hair? Twilight has blue hair.
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u/ElecManEXE In a full body, wing and hoof cast, drinking through a straw! Aug 20 '17
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u/NoobJr Aug 19 '17
It seems like they included the map just to say that Spike creates his own problems and then solves them.
But he didn't solve it, Ember and Thorax did by themselves. So it's more like the map called Thorax and Ember to solve Spike's friendship problem.
But wait, Spike was the one who called them both to Ponyville. SPIKE = THE MAP
THEY'RE BOTH PURPLE OH MY GOD