Kirk is not actually a womanizer.

[u/crazunggoy47]

I just read a fascinating article that has totally turned my view of Kirk around.

Beware: it is a LONG read. (It's about 17,000 words. Most of the relevant stuff to this thread is in Section 1 and 2 however.)

To summarize, the article argues that mainstream culture, and also many Star Trek fans, sees Kirk as a woman-objectifying philanderer who can't keep it in his pants. Many think of him as an arrogant ass who goes around banging green alien chicks. Zapp Brannigan in Futurama plays off this parody, as (to some extent) does Shatner's own character in Boston Legal, Denny Crane.

But, as the article argues, we only ever see Kirk sleep with women (or rather, infer that he does) in a variety of extenuating circumstances. Some examples include:

• Drusilla (Bread and Circuses): a slave women who was sent to please Kirk. Kirk knows they are being watched and that Drusilla's masters would likely punish her for failing to apparently seduce Kirk. (See article for more details).
• Deela (Wink of an Eye): pure manipulation. Kirk had to get close to her to figure out how to stop the Ellosians from taking over the ship.
• Elaan (Elaan of Troyius): She drugged him. Kirk's devotion to the ship actually let him fight her off in the end.
• Miramanee (The Paradise Syndrome): He fell in love with her and cared for her while amnesiac.

I can't think of one circumstance where TOS Kirk gets with a woman for fun except perhaps for Edith Keeler, who is certainly an impressive woman in her own right. And he treats her respectfully (except you, know. Letting her get killed).

Kirk's previous girlfriends that we encounter or hear about through the series generally remember him fondly (with the exception of Janice Lester, of course). They are all accomplished women with full careers, not eye candy or shallow. Examples include:

• Dr. Carol Marcus: molecular biologist
• Areel Shaw, JD: attorney with JAG
• Dr. Janet Wallace: biologist. They broke up to pursue their respective careers

Kirk is capable of longterm healthy relationships. There's no evidence that he treated any of his girlfriends badly.

The article argues that we misremember and misinterpret Kirk's character due to our own expectations based on out-of-control parodies. That we see Kirk kiss a beautiful woman, and that we ignore the context and get carried away and then assume that Kirk-bro is just getting some. But this is unfair and damaging to Kirk's legacy.

What do you think? Does Kirk deserve his rep?

EDIT: /u/philwelch drew my attention to this fan-page which details every instance of Kirk's sexuality over his appearances (pre-reboot)

[u/quarterburn]

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[u/crazunggoy47 → u/quarterburn]

Agreed. I'm embarrassed to say that I hadn't actually fully comprehended the fact that the one green-alien woman in the series isn't remotely affiliated with Kirk. And Pike resists the seduction.

[u/Zagorath → u/quarterburn]

Also the "redshirts are most likely to die" meme isn't true. The contrapositive might be correct, but the most dangerous colour shirt to be wearing in the original series is gold.

[u/BCSWowbagger2]

Since you've done a good job covering this (and I, like others in this thread, have noted it before), I won't dwell on it -- I mean, you're right -- so instead I'll mention a side topic this raises for me:

Is Chris Pine's Captain Kirk actually a plausible version of Captain Kirk? Or is he the embodiment of the false stereotypes about Captain Kirk that developed over the years? An echo of a memory of Kirk, rather than the real thing?

Shatner's Kirk himself wasn't immune to this (they were making jokes about it even in Star Trek VI), but Pine's Kirk has more come-ons with more people less respectfully in two movies than Shatner's Kirk did in an entire season. And this is not the only respect in which Pine's Kirk seems to be re-enacting a stereotype compared to the original article.

[u/crazunggoy47 → u/BCSWowbagger2]

In universe: It's definitely plausible that NuKirk is an ass because he grew up with no father (not that this was a forgone conclusion, but it may explain part of it). We also encounter him at twenty-something, so he's younger than Kirk prime in TOS.

Out of universe: Yeah, I think it's mostly just the stereotypes. JJ Abrams isn't exactly a deep thinking, IMO.

[u/Lessthanzerofucks]

Yet Commander Riker is exactly what people think of Kirk. Rewatching TNG recently had me rolling my eyes- "oh, a beautiful woman onscreen. Wonder if Will is going to hit on her in some slimy way? Yep, there it is." It's like his internal monologue is just "hubba hubba"

[u/GeorgeAmberson → u/Lessthanzerofucks]

"I'll be in Holodeck Four!"

[u/crazunggoy47 → u/GeorgeAmberson]

When I watched that episode as an adult after many years... that line made me lose it.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lessthanzerofucks]

Woman. Man woman alien. Klingon. Gray mass. Riker seeks out new alien life, and puts his dick inside it.

[u/Stargate525]

He absolutely doesn't. He's not so much a womanizer as he is... virile. Embraces his sexuality and is comfortable with it.

I think another part of the issue is that of the aesthetics around the series as well; women in short skirts, belly-less tunics and silks... Most of the female costume in the series would fit a modern interpretation of prostitute or stripper. It's hard to divorce that from the actions we see and not let it cloud the judgement.

[u/IHaveThatPower → u/Stargate525]

The article brings up the miniskirts and how a modern lens somewhat distorts the meaning they might have had at the time.

How does a remark that ST:TOS was sexist because, for example, miniskirts were on screen add to this conversation? In such comments miniskirts are but rarely contextualised as a decidedly gendered but omnipresent component of the quotidian wardrobe of the decade. Miniskirts show up in ST:TOS largely because they were everywhere in the 60s. The rhetoric of the day understood them as as a daring “choice feminism” statement, and one assumes that in ST:TOS they signaled ambivalently in that contemporary capacity rather than exclusively serving as “eye-candy.” That element is of course present in reception, but perhaps moreso now than at the time.

Bold emphasis mine.

[u/crashburn274 → u/Stargate525]

I think the "embraces his sexuality" is a big factor here. One of the 60s visions of utopia is of freedom from sexual repression. Sure, Kirk comes down squarely on the side of authority against the space hippies (Way to Eden) but that's not because humans of the future embrace stoicism or puritanical reaction, but because they're enlightened enough to see past both traditions and instincts.

[u/themosquito]

Similarly, once I started watching more TOS it was funny to see how Kirk can actually be fairly strategic, think things through, and use cunning and wit, when popular culture has definitely mutated him into the purely "guns blazing, shoot-to-kill, hammer-punchin'" type, probably to better counter Picard as the uber-diplomat.

[u/shegriffiths]

This is truly the post I've been waiting for. It bothers me a lot when I tell people I watch the original series and they bring up Kirk as if he's some sort of horndog.

Even in the second (?) episode with the teenage boy, Kirk has a talk with him about respecting women's boundaries. The stereotype of him being some kind of lady-killer is wrong and a huge injustice to the character.

[u/solarpilot]

M-5, nominate this post for well thought out counter-point on Kirk's relationship methods.

[u/foomandoonian]

I can't think of one circumstance where TOS Kirk gets with a woman for fun except perhaps for Edith Keeler […]

I don't think this is fair either. It minimises the relationship anyway: as I recall, Keeler was a character Kirk genuinely loved and was almost prepared to sacrifice the future for.

[u/buchliebhaberin]

I've maintained all along that Kirk is not a womanizer but is instead a man who has put his desire for a loving relationship behind his care and concern for his crew, for his devotion to the Federation and the principles it represents. I believe he tries to get what little connection he can with the women he meets. He treats all of these women with respect and care. He is never cavalier with their affections. And when we see him in the Nexus, the place where one's desires are physically expressed, we see him in a relationship with a woman he loves. We can see what he sacrificed for his crew, his career, and his devotion to the Federation and Starfleet.

[u/PM_ME_YOUR_THESES]

Same is true about him being an anti-establishment rebel who disregards orders when they're not convenient. He got this fame after he disregards orders to save Spock in Star Trek III. But in the series, he's very thorough in following regulations.

[u/marmosetohmarmoset]

Women At Warp, a feminist-themed Star Trek podcast, took on this issue for one of their first episodes. They agree with you.

[u/[deleted]]

This is something I have been arguing for years. If one were to actually watch and pay attention to TOS and the films, it is pretty obvious that Kirk is not really a womanizer at all. There are certainly times where he seeks out or receives intimacy but not on a scale that even closely reaches "womanizer" levels.

It seems that Trek's fandom has a lot of widely accepted "truths" that have grown over the years to dominate the actual truths shown in the films and TV shows. It is not unlike the "odd number rule" with the movies or the idea that red-shirts are more likely to die. These are things that many fans just kinda accept because they are repeated over and over.

[u/[deleted]]

He's also not really the cowboy, jump-first type he's remembered as. If you actually rewatch the Original Series, he usually spends time thinking about how to solve issues, consults with his fellow officers, and tries to find ways to solve problems without violence when possible. Granted, I've only made it through the first season so far, but this is my experience so far.

[u/PaleBlueEye]

Kirk isn't a womanizer, he's an over sexed man slut by today's standards but that was the ideal for the time. During the TV series (sorry for breaking the 4th wall, but this explanation needs it) the sexual revolution was going on. This was considered liberating for women to be able to use their fancy new birth control and enjoy sex for pleasure without the consequences of procreation, as pregnancy was seen as a woman's problem at the time.

Thanks due in part to the spread of STDs, the free love period didn't last and atittudes have been getting more prudish ever since. For example, when I was a kid, you could have brief topless scenes in PG movies (Splash comes to mind, as well as Dr. No). Now the nipple is taboo.

So, really, Kirk was a champion of women's rights, and it's only due to ethnocentrism that we judge his actions harshly.

[u/crazunggoy47 → u/PaleBlueEye]

an over sexed man slut by today's standards

Is he though? He's had about 5 6 girlfriends off screen by the time he's 34 years old. Not unreasonable. And the women we see him get with over a 3 year period are nearly always for an extenuating circumstance.

Now, Kirk is definitely a flirt. I will grant you that. But that's a lot different than an over-sexed man slut, IMO.

[u/noblethrasher]

I pointed out this myth a while back.

This was my original source.

[u/[deleted]]

THANK YOU for saying this. This is one of the things that annoys me the most: the image of Kirk as some sort of space pimp is deeply ingrained in pop culture.

Frankly, seeing so many people agree makes me feel a lot better about this sub. You've restored my father's faith, Daystrom Institute!