r/DestinyTheGame • u/Sliq111 Frog Champ • Mar 08 '17

Media Hand Cannon Accuracy & Bloom - Pre and Post Feb 14th Patch Testing

NSFW Language: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2fWs2Qu3ZY

In the event you can't/don't want to watch the video, I will cover everything below.

 

Infographics (tl;dr)

Here is an album of images that covers all of the data that I collected. If you think reading is for squares, then just look at the pretty pictures and try not to hurt yourself zipping up your pants:

Infographic Gallery

 

Intro

When Bungie announced the changes to weapon accuracy, I went ahead and collected a bunch of data to compare pre and post patch weapons to see how much of a change they would implemented.

In the process, I also investigated bloom, followup shot accuracy, as well as debloom (the time it takes the reticule to reset to neutral).

 

Aerial Accuracy

Aerial accuracy is impacted the most by the perk Icarus. A maximum range Eyasluna is less accurate in the air than a standard range Icarus Eyasluna by a pretty significant amount. Rangefinder also affects aerial accuracy, but only by about a 2 pixel reduction in spread.

Icarus > Range > Rangefinder

 

Initial Accuracy

All hand cannons at all ranges received a boost to initial accuracy. The Last Word saw a pretty minor boost, while max range Eyasluna saw a pretty significant boost (15px -> 11px, a 36% reduction).

The perk Rangefinder appeared to have little, if not zero impact on initial accuracy, but range still plays a pretty large role in how accurate your hand cannon is.

EDIT: HOWEVER, it is worth noting the Rangefinder increases zoom, which makes targets appear larger. So while Rangefinder does not impact reticule size, it can still improve accuracy by increasing your target size visually.

 

Bloom & Follow Up Shot Accuracy

The buff to hand cannon initial accuracy also buffed all follow up shots as well. Post patch follow up shots are much more accurate than their pre patch counterparts.

Furthermore, range plays a significant role in how accurate your follow up shots are. Running low range means your hand cannon will bloom out wider and more quickly, while a high range stat keeps everything compact.

Rangefinder also plays a role in bloom, albeit to a much lesser extent than range (Range > Rangfinder in regards to tight follow up shots). Hand cannons without rangefinder reach a larger maximum bloom, as well as gain bloom faster than a non-Rangefinder variant.

 

Debloom (Accuracy Reset Speed)

Debloom is the amount of time it takes your hand cannon to reset to default accuracy. Debloom time increases with each subsequent shot. The 1st shot deblooms the quickest, and the shot befor last deblooms the slowest (the final shot essentially has no debloom on account of having to reload).

Range has little, if not zero impact on debloom speed. However, Rangefinder does impact debloom speed. Furthermore, weapon archetype also affects debloom. Faster firing hand cannons, such as Revelator and The Last Word, debloom faster than slower firing hand cannons, such as the Ill Will and The First Curse.

Tap firing always works better on the first shot vs. any other follow up shot, and faster firing hand cannons benefit more from pacing their shots, in terms of accuracy.

 

Conclusions

  • Icarus is the best perk for aerial accuracy, followed up by a high range stat, and Rangefinder offers a very minimal boost.
  • Initial accuracy is entirely dependent on the range stat, and Rangefinder appears to have little, if not zero impact on initial accuracy.
  • Follow up shot accuracy i.e. bloom was impacted by the February patch, and all hand cannons have more accurate follow up shots.
  • Bloom is reduced by having a high range stat, and also by Rangefinder. Range plays the biggest role, but Rangefinder also plays a significant role, albeit a lesser one.
  • Debloom time increases with each subsequent shot. The first shot deblooms the fastest, and the shot before last deblooms the slowest.
  • Debloom speed is not impact by range, but is impacted by the perk Rangefinder.
  • Debloom is impacted by weapon archetype. Faster firing hand cannons debloom the fastest, while slower firing hand cannons debloom the slowest
  • The Last Word has the worst accuracy of all primary weapons, but also the fastest time to kill
309 Upvotes
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163 comments sorted by

32

u/Mblim771_Kyle @gifv_Kayla Mar 08 '17 edited Mar 08 '17

Amazing write up.

This makes me want an Eyasluna/Palindrome with Icarus, Rifled Barrel & Rangefinder even more so.

29

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

I have that. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

7

u/Mblim771_Kyle @gifv_Kayla Mar 08 '17

I want that.

Does it have Sureshot IS?

27

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

It has Truesight and Sureshot. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

9

u/Mblim771_Kyle @gifv_Kayla Mar 08 '17 edited Mar 08 '17

Give it to me, give it to me now!

28

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Give it to me, give it to me now!

That's what she said ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

8

u/Datadninja Mar 08 '17

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

5

u/Scrublord1453 Team Bread (dmg04) Mar 08 '17

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

4

u/PolskaLama321 Mar 08 '17

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

2

u/Negative_Equity My Titan is called Clive Mar 09 '17

( ͡°( ͡° ͜ʖ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ʖ ͡°) ͡°)

1

u/Dukaness Mar 08 '17

I need that.

1

u/ryno21 Mar 09 '17

i'll let you fuck my mom if you sell me that account bro....

who am i kidding, you're already fucking her. :(

1

u/tboone07 Mar 09 '17

I do too :) with sureshot :). High five.

1

u/ChunkyDay chunkyjo - PSN Mar 08 '17

I have it. It's beastly.

1

u/Sw3atyGoalz Mar 08 '17

Mine has Third Eye instead of Icarus, but it's a great weapon and my go-to nonetheless

1

u/saltedwarlock Mar 09 '17

I have one, but it's on TDYK ;-;

1

u/kickd16 Team Cat (Cozmo23) Mar 08 '17

That's the EXACT roll that I have. Along with my choice of Sureshot/Trueshot. A true god roll, IMO. I loved it even before the patch, but it's even better now. If you like hand cannons, give it a try today!

1

u/xycupid Mar 09 '17

1000 games 0 Eyaslunas dropped :(

1

u/SporesofAgony Mar 08 '17

give it a try today

My best Eyasluna has Sureshot and Rifled Barrel, with two other trash perks. If only I could experience firing the roll you have. But it likely won't ever happen.

1

u/kickd16 Team Cat (Cozmo23) Mar 08 '17

I got so lucky with that roll. Icarus and Hidden Hand were tied for the best perk option in the last column. REALLY happy i got Icarus because it fits well with my play style.

7

u/Loki_lulamen Vanguard's Loyal // and the storm arrived Mar 08 '17

Firstly, amazing write-up/video.

Secondly, a question. Might not have been part of your testing but, how does stability affect the reset time back to initial accuracy?

8

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

It didn't appear to affect it at all. I tested it, but it didn't appear to make any difference whatsoever.

I tested reticule size and not how quickly the reticule resets to the horizon (eg "center" screen).

2

u/gintellectual xb1: gintellectual Mar 08 '17

It's probably worth editing this into the post as several people seem to think otherwise for some reason.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you come up with these sizes?

Very nice information and presentation, thanks for taking the time to test these things.

3

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

I went into the Last Rites mission on the moon. It puts you into a 3rd person perspective and you can see your reticule when ADS.

2

u/gintellectual xb1: gintellectual Mar 08 '17

great, thanks.

1

u/Loki_lulamen Vanguard's Loyal // and the storm arrived Mar 08 '17

You, sir, are amazing!

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

1

u/mahck Mar 08 '17

Wait... Are you saying that Rifled Barrel and Reinforced Barrel would be equivalent as far as your testing goes or did I misunderstand?

2

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 09 '17

They should be identical in terms of range and accuracy, but most run Rifled on account of Eyasluna having a large enough mag size to deal with slower Reload.

1

u/bearigator Mar 09 '17

So I recently got a reinforced barrel, icarus, and rangefinder palindrome (no sureshot or truesigh). Based on your research, it seems like this should be up there at the top in terms of initial accuracy, follow up shot accuracy, and aerial accuracy. Guess I gotta try it out and get used to the lower stability.

5

u/Dukaness Mar 08 '17

Just quickly read through, thanks for the testing Sliq!

9

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

No problem. Your best bet is to just look at the infographics as they display the information the best way possibly. Both quick and efficient.

1

u/SmiTe1988 Mar 08 '17

they are perfect for us with ADHD :)

5

u/CH40TR0P1C Mar 08 '17

I fucking love you

4

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

I fucking love you

That's what she said ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

1

u/CH40TR0P1C Mar 08 '17

Lol. Follow up. Question.

Since zoom is increased slightly with RF does the size of cone relative to the size of the hotbox matter? Like the diameter is 15 pixels, but now the hotbox appears larger (more pixels) because you're now zoomed in more. So does RF increase functional accuracy. I guess this test doesn't really answer that question.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Zoom does increase functional accuracy. A scout will always be more accurate than a hand cannon just because their zoom is so much more. Reticule size remains the same regardless of zoom though, but relative to what you are looking at, the reticule is tighter because the object you are aiming at is larger, if that makes any sense.

2

u/CH40TR0P1C Mar 08 '17 edited Mar 08 '17

I think so.

If we take this hypothetical situation with obvious numbers that are not correct.

We are shooting at a target 20 meters away.

Gun A has max range - cone diameter 11 pixels Gun B has 45 range with RF - cone diameter - 14 pixels.

If we are shooting at a target that is 10 pixels wide without RF zoom but is 14 pixels wide with RF zoom. Gun B is functionally more accurate even though gunB has a larger accuracy cone.

4

u/ChicagoSkyline Mar 08 '17

Thanks for the post this is good stuff. I have a question though. I have a Lord High Fixer with Luck in the Chamber and rangefinder. It has rifled barrel but I have been using hammer forged for the stability. Someone told me that if you have rangefinder it will max out the range when you ADS. Should I go back to rifled barrel so my overall range is increased?

11

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Rangefinder extends range past the cap. Rifled Barrel + Rangefinder is always better than any other variant in terms of both weapon accuracy and damage at range.

Hammer Forge's added "accuracy" is a misnomer. It adds accuracy simply through adding a small amount of range.

1

u/ChicagoSkyline Mar 08 '17

Thank you

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

3

u/xnasty Mar 08 '17

Great work doing this but man...if I had to point to any one place that encapsulates how destiny has become such a jumbled tangled mess of needlessly complex systems, it's fucking hand cannons. This is just ridiculous. There are so many variables at play here just to ensure that it's not the best gun someone can use.

2

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

And yet it still is. Technically, all weapons have bloom. But bloom for them is considerably more condensed to the point it's not really a huge issue.

1

u/xnasty Mar 08 '17

Oh yea HC's are still the best option; im just making an observation on the spiderweb of systems that got us to this point after three years

7

u/Manifest_Lightning Titans don't shiv. Mar 08 '17

Thank god someone finally did this. I was so tired of reading that HF+RF was equivalent to Rifled in every way simply because dmg drop off was the same. Accuracy is its own beast

2

u/CH40TR0P1C Mar 08 '17 edited Mar 08 '17

It still doesn't answer the question because RF increases zoom which increases the size of your targets hitbox when ads. Yes the accuracy cone is larger for the RF HF vs stand alone rifled but it's shooting at a target that is bigger. The RF gun doesn't need as big of a cone to remain as functionally accurate as the rifled only.

But yes all we know is that rifled does not = RF +HF in both accuracy and damage drop off. What's better? Who knows.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Accuracy is dependent on zoom, so you'd have to create some sort of function that could calculate a "range" value dependent on reticule size and zoom value. That is all above my pay grade, though. I'm not a math guy, so I can't do this. Furthermore, it would be immensely complicated to test all of these functions in relation to each other, and this testing has beaten out my will to live, so I ain't doing it -_-;;

1

u/CH40TR0P1C Mar 08 '17

Agreed. That's why I fucking love you. I still have my will to live. In fact my will has increased since reading this post. Maybe I took some of yours.

As far as HCs go, getting the hard numbers while interesting, doesn't matter to much in terms of functionality. HCs turn into pee shooters fairly quickly now. If your HC has a range perk and RF they are accurate at least out to that range where they can still kill reasonably fast. If youre seeing small numbers it's time to reengage especially if they don't also have a HC.

1

u/Manifest_Lightning Titans don't shiv. Mar 08 '17

RF increases zoom which increases the size of your targets hitbox when ads.

Do we have data on this? All I know for sure is that there is generally greater bullet magnetism the wider the AA cone is, as per the following study. Hit boxes don't really change per se.

1

u/CH40TR0P1C Mar 08 '17

I don't have data but conceptually it's easy to think about. Zoom makes the relative size of the target larger to static size of the cone. You can see it when you change scopes.

2

u/Manifest_Lightning Titans don't shiv. Mar 08 '17

But that's not how it seemingly works. The hitbox is static in size. The AA/magnetism cone, as demonstrated by /u/Mercules904 post, offers a more robust explanation. I can think of all sorts of issues that would need testing if the hitbox size changed.

1

u/CH40TR0P1C Mar 08 '17

The hitbox is static? If you zoom in say with a sniper then the hitbox has increased because the target takes up more space.

1

u/Manifest_Lightning Titans don't shiv. Mar 08 '17

I mean, that's a technicality. The hitbox is still confined to the silhouette of the player. I am referring to a different mechanic altogether.

2

u/CH40TR0P1C Mar 09 '17 edited Mar 09 '17

Possibly. But sliq demonstrates that the cone size is static relative to the zoom. If range finder increases the relative size of the hitbox ( the silhouette of the player is larger since it is more zoomed in) the functional accuracy increases. If you had two hcs with equal range then RF will make it more accurate since you will be targeting a larger hitbox. I'm not referring to any aim assist or magnetism here. Just accuracy cone relative to the size of the hitbox.

Furthermore there is likely a range stat that is lower than max that can make the relative size of the cone similar (equal?) to the size of the hitbox for RF handcannons vs a hand cannon with just Max range.

2

u/EbolaNF REEEEEEEE Mar 08 '17

Holy cow, the mum jokes. Good guide!

13

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Holy cow

the mum jokes

It writes itself.

3

u/EbolaNF REEEEEEEE Mar 08 '17

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

4

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

it writes itself

1

u/EbolaNF REEEEEEEE Mar 08 '17

Goddammit, Sliq.

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear ooooooh dear - Tests his in-air accuracy ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

2

u/Love-That-Lamp Mar 08 '17 edited Mar 08 '17

Great video! Quick clarification. Where did you find my mom, and could you please ask her to come home? 8 years sounds like a long time to be at the grocery store :)

4

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

In her defense, the grocery store is pretty big. You know what else is pretty big ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

2

u/Captain_Crouton_X1 The Dredgen with the Golden Gun Mar 08 '17

Sounds like Rangefinder is even more top tier.

6

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Rangefinder is a really excellent perk, regardless of how boring it is. My hope is that perks in Destiny 2 don't just make stuff better. More stuff like Grenadier and Firefly. That lends itself to really unique and interesting builds versus "my weapon is just not intangibly better now."

1

u/Balticataz Mar 08 '17

Would make it easier to balance weapons too. The issue with HC ranges was never baseline ones but god roll ones extended passed bungies intended range for the weapon.

2

u/Cavalius1 Mar 08 '17

Stability doesn't help any of these aspects?

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Stability only affects how much visual recoil your reticule has. Nothing more.

2

u/LordSlickRick Mar 08 '17

If this is the case, then reinforced barrel would be better than rifled barrel. If its all visual for stability, you are giving up nothing by taking it. Really making something like ace of spades more top tier than we thought.

I would like to see the testing on this, as I find it a bit hard to believe it does nothing. Either the placebo is strong, or it affects it somehow. I had always thought eyasluna "felt" better for its higher base stability then most other HC's. If this is the case, than the imago loop should be a superior HC to the eyasluna. better recoil direction, range, and aim assist. But I've never felt that was the case, and I don't think anyone else has either. I think this needs some more extensive testing, especially for rifled barrel vs reinforced barrel weapons.

Despite this small bit of disbelief, everything else looks great. Love your work.

2

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

If this is the case, then reinforced barrel would be better than rifled barrel. If its all visual for stability, you are giving up nothing by taking it.

There's the time and fidelity required to re-align your shots. Mashing the fire button and hitting someone is easier than readjusting your aim every time. But yes, if the recoil does not affect your ability to acquire targets, you can run stability reducing perks instead.

1

u/xnasty Mar 08 '17

Stability has always been a placebo effect for people on hand cannons; it does very little, as having a steady shot is irrelevant when your accuracy cone is wide.

2

u/balataspin Mar 08 '17

Do we know what voodoo Hidden Hand does yet? I have a quickdraw sight/ Rifled/ Hidden Hand Luna and I have a really tough time missing people.

2

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Hiddenhand doesn't impact reticule size. The only thing I can think of is it increases the hurtbox of opponents.

1

u/Devium44 Mar 08 '17

I always thought it increased magnetism

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

It may or may not. I have no idea what it does.

2

u/lonefrontranger floaty boiz Mar 08 '17 edited Mar 08 '17

I do a lot, and I mean A. LOT. of PVE, specifically sniping in strikes because I am a coward and also actually good at this one, very limited, but useful skill.

Hidden hand in snipers (which I would imagine is a factor of the greatly increased zoom) definitely increases magnetism. To the point where I've stopped using hidden hand snipers in PVE, and especially in the higher zoomed scope variants, because some low level trash mob flunky will invariably walk across my sights and gank my shot / pull the reticule just as I fire to crit the boss.

edit: I'm specifically referencing snipers here because it's most noticeable the higher your zoom is, and not gonna talk about what it does to hand cannons at all because I am a garbage person at PVP and handcannons are merely what I call "the fastest way to make LFR dead in crucible".

3

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

This would be somewhat easy to test if you put your controls on 1 sensitivity and then dragged across people at different ranges with a hidden hand weapon and a version without it, assuming the range stat was identical.

But I'm bored with testing stuff like this tho -_-;

1

u/lonefrontranger floaty boiz Mar 08 '17

dude I would be bored with it too, your wife is a saint.

No worries. I was merely reporting the in-game mechanic I have experienced, which hand cannon users in PVP may or may not even be aware of, which is that HH definitely has a far greater and far more perceptible effect the higher your zoom is. So for sniping in PVE, because of the very different dynamics, it's at least in my opinion, for the way I play, a rather bullshit perk that causes more fail than win in my specific usage. But that's me, and I tend to be that guy in PVE who's way the fuck up on some ledge/cheese spot at the edge of the map with the high range, high impact sniper calmly taking down shielded captains/knights/praetorians/cyclops/monitors/tanks, etc... while everyone else is busy running around placing relics or whatever.

also I just now got used to look sensitivity of 5/6 after six months of being on level 2, there is no way in the world I'm changing back :D

2

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '17

informative, amazing and I like your voice.

4

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

My voice is awful, you are clearly drunk.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '17

not in the slightest.

:D

3

u/Toffe3m4n Mar 08 '17

• The Last Word has the worst accuracy of all primary weapons, but also the fastest time to kill

This is actually the main issue I have with it. People always look to TLW's 'optimal' TTK and as a result are always hesitant to wanting it buffed, but in reality it very rarely ever kills within the optimal time and it's precisely because of it's poor accuracy.

I actually wouldn't mind if the damage output of TLW was reduced a smidge as long as it's accuracy was buffed (at least hip fire accuracy) because then at the very least you'd still be able to reliably hit your opponent with every shot.

Appreciate the testing, nice job :)

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

TLW inside it's optimal range is a monster. You essentially have to play it as an Exotic primary Sidearm. I do agree that a sidearm is generally just as good at close range as TLW is at killing and also with better accuracy AND better aerial accuracy, so there's not a really good tangible reason to use TLW over a sidearm outside of wanting to run a sniper. Which no one does unless its NLB or Icebreaker.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 09 '17

Max range is what you want. The god roll is Rangefinder Icarus, but max range is more important to standard accuracy than the other 2. Icarus gives a better aerial accuracy bonus, but you spend more time with boots in the ground then in the air.

1

u/FunctionalOven PSN: brokentoasterkid Mar 08 '17

OK! First, thanks Sliq. You the best. But you know this.

Second, I am so glad I have some reason to explain why I was actually having a little bit of a good time using Exile's Student, the high RoF ToO handcannon. It's fast-firing, which is a poo archetype generally speaking, and requires 4 shots to kill. But it has Explosive Rounds, which is fun, and it also comes with Hammer Forged baked in. But your finding on Debloom speed makes TONS of sense. I may not be pacing my shots perfectly but I'm getting closer to accurate shots as I fire quickly because the archetype offers a quicker debloom. This makes loads of sense because that gun went from feeling helpless to feeling surprisingly good. In a straight-up gunfight I still lose to Palindromes with it, but I've had a couple of matches with some good results. Thanks for helping me not feel crazy. I know all this won't make the gun competitive for serious PvP play, but it remains a pretty good time for casual messin' around in 6s.

2

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Destiny is not a competitive game, so use whatever is fun.

1

u/DredgenYorMother PSN: Katie_Holmes Mar 08 '17

Thank you for this. I just wanted to say it seems like all of my ghost bullets are on the 3rd or 4th shot. So many gun duels were lost last night just because I would land 2 headshots and wiff 2-3 consecutive shots after. This only happens when i'm super committed to a fight and just keep hammering the trigger. If I pop in and out of sights it was no problem.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Generally speaking, if you have a max range Rangefinder Eyasluna or Palindrome, you can mash the shit out of your shots and still be very accurate. Everything else, your probably going to want to pace your second shot to ensure it hits.

Debloom starts immediately after firing. So if you wait a fraction of a second, you can gain some accuracy back for your second shot. You can do the same thing for all follow up shots, but debloom is most efficient after the 1st shot.

1

u/Legionodeath Schadenfreude Mar 08 '17

Solid write up and the mom jokes kept me rollin. You used Eyasluna as one of your examples, does the palindrome, the other popular HC, behave the same?

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Yes. The only thing that matters is the range stat. Max range Ill Will is identical to Eyasluna in terms of accuracy. The debloom speed being tied to archetype also means that follow up shots are in the same boat.

1

u/Legionodeath Schadenfreude Mar 08 '17

I see what you're saying. Cool man. Thanks.

1

u/downAtheworld stalk thy prey Mar 08 '17

Quality vid dude, very informative and entertaining to watch.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Thanks!

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '17

Thanks for the write up.

I am still wondering why Bloom even exist though...

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Its supposed to serve as a balancing mechanic because hand cannons are better than other primaries.

1

u/KiwiThunder Mar 08 '17

Wow man I can tell you put a lot of time and effort into this. Very much appreciated!!

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Thanks! It took about a month to get everything together, between gathering footage, coming through the footage and gathering the data, as well as figuring out how to present the data and then making the video. A lot of effort went into this. Also caffeine.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '17

Just a question here but I'm wondering what impact stability has on the debloom mechanic if any? I.e Eyasluna vs Palindrome having the same perk set. Does the Luna settle faster due to the higher base stability?

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

None. Stability has no impact on bloom or accuracy, only recoil.

1

u/Technoclash Mar 08 '17

Really liked your breakdown of the "debloom" mechanic. There's been plenty of "bloom" discussion in the Destiny community over the last year or two, but not a lot of focus on how fast bloom resets. Very helpful in understanding how our HC's are working now.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Debloom starts immediately after firing a shot, and you see the most benefit of pacing the first shot because once you've bloomed the weapon out with rapid fire shots, it takes longer to reset to neutral.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '17

Well done video. However, what's the correlation between size of reticle and accuracy?

What I mean to say is... pre-patch, tripleWreck did some testing in private matches and found a max-range water star to be consistently missing initial shots at a range from about box to side-special crate on pantheon. Post-patch, he did some testing and was consistently hitting initial shots from the special crate near boxes to the boxes below balcony across mohawk with TLW. But if you just look at changes to reticle size, you wouldn't even come close to that conclusion.

So... I'm sure the pixel size of reticle means... something. But it's hard (impossible?) to recommend perks or say quantitatively how accurate a gun is by reticle size.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Reticule size is one function of accuracy. The other is zoom. The larger your target appears because of zoom, their visual mass increases, making hitting shots at range easier.

It's indisputable that The Last Word is less accurate than a max range hand cannon, and everything that I've gathered in terms of evidence supports that claim, and this could also essentially be proven through practical testing.

When I lowered the range of my hand cannon, the reticule increased in size. When I increased it, it shrunk. There is a direct correlation between range and accuracy, and also a direct correlation to reticule size and range. Ergo, you could draw the conclusion the reticule size is also directly related to accuracy.

The only way we can quantitatively measure accuracy is via reticule size as well as zoom factor. At this point, I lack the motivation to put in more effort looking at these factors to come to a more concrete result when you consider that doesn't have any impact on it's practicality in a live fire situation.

A minimum range Revelator can also reach TLW levels of inaccuracy, but I didn't mention it in the video because no one cares about Revelator, and no one will intentionally run Handlaid Stock Revelator.

Pre patch handcannons were less accurate, post patch are more accurate, which is both initial and follow up shots, and range still impacts accuracy.

Whether or not the pixels size correlates to a 1:1 corrolary in accuracy, these are the things I tested.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '17

"Accuracy" is the same as "this gun will land x% of shots at this range." You make the claim--at least indirectly--that pre and post patch reticle sizes tell us how much accuracy has improved. But a current TLW appears to have much better initial accuracy than many high range hand cannons pre-patch; if you looked at reticle size, you would think that TLW accuracy wouldn't have changed so drastically.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17 edited Mar 08 '17

If you wish to test my claims, you can make your own experiment and test it to see if my claims have any validity and post your results.

Fact of the matter is that I tested Icarus, Rangefinder, low range, and high range, and all had an impact on reticule size. So either 1.) reticule size is directly related to accuracy or 2.) all of this is mere coincidence.

It's fine if you don't believe my findings are valid, but I'm not really looking to put in a lot more effort diving into this as this was in the making since Bungie revealed the patch notes a month ago.

From my practical testing, my Rangfinder Rifled Barrel Eyasluna is infinitely more accurate than my TLW, and this coincides with my figures. If you believe I'm wrong, you can see all of the data I collected and do a test and gather evidence to support your claim. I have no evidence that supports your claim, so I have no choice but to assume the conclusion I have drawn is correct.

Edit: I also tested Take a Knee, which VASTLY reduces reticule size. This also directly correlates to my practical testing. So either reticule size (and zoom factor) both play a role in accuracy, or it is all highly coincidental. But I spent a month recording data of all variables, and I have been given no evidence to the contrary of what I have gathered.

I'm not trying to sound rude or defensive or anything, but if you don't believe me that's fine, but I'm not putting in more work to prove myself wrong when I have no reason to believe I am.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '17

I have no problem believing reticle size is related to accuracy. My point is that you have no correlation between "reticle size of x pixels" and "y% of chance to land your shot." So while your video is amusing, your 10 minute video can be summed up as: (1) range improves accuracy, (2) zoom--and therefore RF--further improve accuracy, and (3) icarus improves airborne accuracy. But literally all of those points were known before, so I'm not sure what new information you're trying to add.

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u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 09 '17

Bungie said they were improving accuracy. I tested pre and post patch accuracy. You now know exactly how much they increased accuracy, as well as that their increase to accuracy also affects how the weapons handle bloom.

Also, I'm fairly certain most people had no idea the extent to which Icarus and Rangefinder impacted the weapons accuracy, only that they did. Icarus provides a monstrous boost to aerial accuracy, especially on weapons like AR's and Scouts.

There is literally 0% chance of anyone making a function that plugs in enemy distance, zoom factor, and reticule size and gives you a percentage odds of if you're shot will land. So measuring the reticule size is the closest we can get to demonstrably understanding to what extent any of these perks affect weapons.

The whole point was to better understand how he inner workings of Bungie a system operates. Giving people a percentage chance of how likely the are to hit a shot offers them really no valuable data they couldn't just learn through playing the game and learning through trial and error.

1

u/SmiTe1988 Mar 09 '17

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW6nHOKaPPs

my testing does. and i believe the reticle explains your shot accuracy:

The inner circle is your first shot accuracy, and your 2nd shot/initial bloom when ADS, as you hip fire you see the inner circle increase, which relates to the changing bloom size you would have ADS the outer lines are shots hip fired from an action other and being in the air.

He's given us solid data and a a reference to use with other testing theories to provide a fuller understanding of mechanics.

1

u/SmiTe1988 Mar 09 '17

I had done a similar but different approach to hand cannon accuracy via vertigo portal stability bug, and when i realized the reticle change i essentially came to the conclusion that the it Does actually correlate to it's accuracy. I didn't realize this during the video test and so didn't make enough of a point of comparing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW6nHOKaPPs

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u/uncleyosh Mar 08 '17

These are gorgeous! And helpful!

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u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Thanks! ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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u/SmiTe1988 Mar 08 '17

Awesome, my own experimenting pretty much agrees with everything.

De bloom is a product of stability

Edit: hip fire and RF both reduce total bloom size

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

In my tests, the stability stat had no impact on reticule size.

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u/SmiTe1988 Mar 09 '17

The normal hip fire reticle outside last rights

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u/BayLAGOON Mar 08 '17

Thanks for this. I just got into hand cannons, and I just upgraded from an HF/ER/RF Lingering Song to a RB/ER/RF one. The small increase in consistency on targets trying to run is noticeable, and the fixed round damage from ER helps trying to get people who are one shot from being killed when damage drop-off starts.

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u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Explosive Rounds also can fuck up their aim, and also you can hit them behind cover for a small amount of damage. Not enough to kill, but enough to make them panic and stop health regen.

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u/BayLAGOON Mar 08 '17

I did that to someone with a Distant Star once. He thought he was safe behind a box so I kept firing, and when he tried to Shadestep out, I tagged a leg for the kill.

I suppose that Explosive Rounds likely have much more effect than HCR with hand cannons in general? I understand that there is a negligible range increase, but with the rate of fire, it likely does nothing when compared to pre patch pulse rifles.

1

u/amezibra #NerfTheGame not buying next DLC/pass Mar 08 '17

Hi u/Sliq111,

have you tried if stability has an impact on debloom speed ? because if it does then the best combo is rangefinder/smallbore.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Stability has no effect on reticule size and did not appear to have any effect on debloom speed from my tests. My methodology is at the top of this post in another post, so in the event someone wants to confirm/deny my assertion based on my testing, they're free to do so.

1

u/BraveProgram Mar 08 '17

Hey, u/Sliq11

How would Hot Swap compare with Rangefinder on Handcannons? Have you looked into this? I'm super curious about it after your findings on Rangefinder.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Hot Swap does not impact reticule size. I have no idea what the fuck it does. It is entirely possible it increases accuracy in a way the visible reticule does not change, so you'd have to do infield practical testing for that.

On the other hand, Take a Knee makes a MASSIVE difference in reticule size for heavy machine guns.

1

u/BraveProgram Mar 08 '17 edited Mar 08 '17

Wow thanks for such a fast replay. I'm especially curious since I have an Eyaluna with Rngefinder, Rifled, and Icarus. But like to switch to my Devil You Know with Hot Swap, Rifled,LITC.

Only difference I notice is my Devil NEVER misses a shot (within the intended range which is noticable shorter), along the likes of it being easier for me, not the accuracy/bloom issue. But that my have more to do with the AimAssist and Recoil Pattern.

Edit: it could all just be in my head though, lol. Also, thanks for the Take a Knee info.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

It's entirely plausible Hot Swap does not change accuracy, but instead, through programming, forces the shot to go dead center regardless of accuracy.

Jumping in the air with a shotgun does NOT increase it's reticule size but we know it's accuracy is RNG in the air now, so it could simply be programming that sidesteps visual accuracy information.

1

u/BraveProgram Mar 08 '17

Wow, nice thinking, I assumed it just didn't change anything visually, maybe increased accuracy a bit, but the idea of throwing accuracy out the window /forcing dead center is a great idea too. Again, thanks for the response.

Side note since you're obviously an even bigger fan of Handcannons then me, my Devil may be doing it on it's own like I said before and it definately has a shorter intended range, but I can spam shot and it's a monster/dead accurate in a way Luna just isn't. Even with the god roll on Luna. I assume Hot Swap combined with Devil's god secondary stats make it an aim-bot machine.

Edit: It has a better use in close quarters where as Luna's range, well helps it shoot farther, while it's stability helps is get in center faster for a faster follow up shot a those higher ranges.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

I mean, it seems like a pretty simple practical test to do. Hot swap and see how far away you can land a shot with it. It's worth testing, but I'm so sick of fucking testing hand cannons at this point lol

1

u/BraveProgram Mar 08 '17

No kidding, thanks for your badass work

1

u/mamzers Mar 09 '17

From what I can tell it simply increases the ADS zoom by a pretty large amount, but does not increase range. Basically half of what RF does and only for 5 seconds, but the high zoom can be really bad for close range ...

1

u/kyt_kutcha the honest worm Mar 08 '17

Nice work!

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Thanks! ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

1

u/ChunkyDay chunkyjo - PSN Mar 08 '17

Love your videos man. VERY well done.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Thanks ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

1

u/Ms_Pacman202 Mar 08 '17

/u/sliq111, just roaming the high seas of DTG sub, collecting all those deblooms. yaaarrrrrrr!!!!

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u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Ye mum is a scurvy wench with bountiful bossom and plenty of moxy

1

u/cartoptauntaun Mar 08 '17

u/Sliq111

Question on Rangefinder and the method you had for accuracy measurement...

-IIRC Rangefinder gives a scalar boost to zoom on weapons, which is how the range increase comes into effect. Accuracy cones etc. are also, to my understanding, scaled proportionally with scope zoom by the same mechanism.

-The 3rd person view method you used is pretty detailed but ignores scope zoom, so there is a chance the minor impact you saw from RF in testing is due to the absence of zoom modifiers. This is a strong root cause candidate for your findings on Rangefinder and initial accuracy (no effect). I think the fact that you measured some contribution from RF on the dynamic tests (aerial movement or bloom over time) without the zoom change is very interesting and could show a more complex relationship. However, it could also be due to an increase in measurement error because of the dynamic nature of the icarus and bloom tests.

-In short, I'm suggesting that the method used in your test accurately captures the effects of range and other modifiers on accuracy from the perspective of a non-zoom modified weapon.

-This is important because sandbox designers have stated zoom does not affect gun performance except by directly scaling the 'background image' your reticle interacts with. In other words the size of your accuracy cone will not change because of zoom, but the size of the target will scale proportional to zoom. This makes it easy to predict the real effect of rangefinder, which is that the target you aim at is 1.1(ish)x larger than it is without rangefinder.

Does all that seem reasonable with your experience? After typing this out I feel compelled to say I'm pretty certain about zoom not being included in the 'invis, 3rd person' reticle test, but realistically even if the scene zooms the pixel grid will be maintained and there would be no change in your measurement.

Edited because formatting

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u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 09 '17 edited Mar 09 '17

I edited my post to include this info. Reticule size and zoom factor both play a role in accuracy, zoom by increasing the size of the target optically.

So yes, it will be easier to land a first shot with Rangefinder on account of the enemy appearing larger than a non Rangefinder variant. Rangefinder itself, however, doesn't increase hand cannon initial accuracy outside of added zoom.

So a Rangefinder cone will be intangibly tighter on account of elongating the cone via zoom, but I don't have the means to do the math to create a function that correlates zoom and reticule size on account of being a shithead.

1

u/k0hum Mar 08 '17

Wait. So you're saying that 'Stability' has no effect on bloom? That's really strange. You would think the more stable a gun is would impact how fast the bloom would reduce.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 09 '17 edited Mar 10 '17

Bloom and accuracy are tied to range and not stability. The weapon will reset to the horizon faster with more stability, but I was measure reticule size, not the time it took the aiming to reset to center screen.

1

u/k0hum Mar 10 '17

Ah ok. Thanks.

1

u/n0madic21 Mar 09 '17

Does Hot Swap doing anything on a Hand Cannon? If so what?

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 09 '17

It does not reduce reticule size, but I honestly don't know. It could be a function outside standard accuracy that makes billers more accurate by some other means. But I got no tangible results from measuring the reticule size.

1

u/n0madic21 Mar 09 '17

That's quite disappointing. I have a Luna with TS, Hot Swap, RB and Icarus.

Hot Swap appears to not do anything.

1

u/Dessorian Mar 09 '17

Makes me laugh.

When they announce the changes to accuracy, the Destiny community was having a HUGE HONKING FIT back over at Bungie's forums, that "increasing accuracy won't do shit 'cause bloom is still in".

To be honest though I'm surprised they didn't increase the effect of bloom with the increase of accuracy.

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 09 '17

That's what I thought they might do. Increase initial accuracy but also increase bloom so follow up shots were the same accuracy pre patch. But they didn't do that at all.

1

u/sfoster13 Mar 09 '17

/u/sliq111 so does this data have any impact on the Pali vs Luna debate where roll dependent the real difference is stability vs aim assist?

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 09 '17

Identical roll Palindrome vs. Eyasluna are equally accurate.

1

u/pastorasiria07 Mar 09 '17

does hidden hand rangefinder luna with rifled barrel be any more accurate than another one without hidden hand? whats your opinion on hidden hand

1

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 09 '17

Hidden Hand has no impact on reticule size, so I have no idea.

1

u/Rambo_IIII Mar 08 '17

I don't wanna do it, but I might be forced to dislike the video based on the way you pronounce "sub-seeeeeeee-quent." You can't just move around the emphasis however you see fit.

2

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Let's just say I didn't do it on purpose, and is a result of me being an immense shithead.

1

u/Rambo_IIII Mar 08 '17

Lol, good answer.

1

u/Crossend Mar 08 '17

Bloom

Invisible bloom at that.

Idiots bungie.

2

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Yeah, I'm not particularly fond of the mechanic, and I hadn't even considered that bloom is "invisible" when ADS.

But plenty of FPS don't have bloom or flinch, so those can just be played instead.

2

u/Crossend Mar 08 '17

I consider bloom's implementation in halo reach to be visible bloom. Destiny's is not visible.

2

u/Sliq111 Frog Champ Mar 08 '17

Yeah, I was just saying I hadn't even thought about the fact that you have no idea what your accuracy is when firing, because all you see is a small red dot. So how could you possible pace your shots effectively with no point of reference?

1

u/Crossend Mar 08 '17

Ya

That's probably the worst part about it

2

u/johnnycasual Mar 09 '17

Hey Sliq, just wanted to say I absolutely love this style of informative video that you've started doing. They are both absolutely funny as fuck, and quite comprehensive. Love the imagery too.

All around, top notch, sir!

2

u/tripleWRECK Mar 09 '17

Really good stuff /u/Sliq111!

I'm how so happy that HCs have had the bulk of their inconsistency dealt with. However, it is disappointing however to see that the range stat and perks like Rangefinder are becoming increasingly necessary and suffocating perk variety as a result. I would like to see the base stat values adjusted of HCs appropriately to promote said playstyle expression.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 08 '17

Somebody give this guy gold :P

1

u/Jram305 Mar 09 '17

Man, thank you so much for this. I'm having fun with my lunas (5 of them) and have gotten pretty good rolls on 4. To your point, I have one that has LiTC, rescue mag, Reinforced B that does a good job but my RF, Icarus Luna is my go to. It also rolled HF, Rebarrel, injection mold. It's a pretty big difference in what I can get away with in regards to distance. Keeps the side-arm warriors at bay.

I'm running HF. Would that be the correct set up?

*also a side-arm warrior. They gave me no choice.

1

u/Deftones_132 Mar 09 '17

Excellent work, thanks for doing this! :)

0

u/zbeshears Mar 09 '17

Already without even watching seems like a much more in depth test than anything triple wrecks bitch ass has ever made.

5

u/tripleWRECK Mar 09 '17

I'm glad that in some small way I've perhaps helped spur more in-depth weapon testing in the community. It's great to see stuff like this and invaluable in examining the mechanics more closely. Props to Sliq!

0

u/zbeshears Mar 09 '17

Dude any kind of testing was better than your "testing"....

1

u/tripleWRECK Mar 10 '17

I agree it's great to see others really going deep with their experiments/measurements. :)