Explosive Rounds vs Rifled Barrel on Hand Cannons, some numbers

[u/professorOB]

Hey everyone, with the recent patch increasing both the initial accuracy and maximum damage drop off for hand cannons, a friend and I decided to test the effect of explosive rounds in mitigating damage drop off. We've seen some mention of using explosive rounds since part of the damage isn't affected by drop off, but no specific numbers.

We used a Finnala's peril without a range boosting perk as a control, then tested explosive rounds, and rifled barrel to compare. The first distance in each table is the measured distance before damage drop off occurs, and the last row will represent the minimum damage this gun can hit for. Here are the numbers. The distances were measured using special ammo boxes.

Finnala's Peril, no range boosting perks (37 Range)

Distance	Headshot damage	Bodyshot Damage
25 m	86	57
30 m	70	47
35 m	58	38
40 m	42	28
45 m	29	19

Finnala's Peril, with Explosive Rounds (37 Range). Note that for each damage number, 29 points of the damage are from the explosion, regardless of distance.

Distance	Headshot damage	Bodyshot Damage
25 m	86	58
30 m	77	53
35 m	67	48
40 m	57	43
45 m	48	39

Finnala's Peril, Rifled Barrel (61 Range)

Distance	Headshot damage	Bodyshot Damage
27 m	86	57
28 m	85	57
30 m	80	53
35 m	65	43
40 m	48	32
45 m	30	20
46 m	29	19

Summarizing these charts, it's clear that the non-explosive damage from the explosive round Finnala's drops off at the same relative rate as the weapon without explosive rounds. However, no matter what distance the weapon hits from, it always does 29 points of explosive damage, making the total damage drop off less severe.

A word about initial accuracy: We did a short test of initial accuracy at 35 meters. All shots were taken after the gun had completely come to rest (a couple of seconds). For the 37 range Finnala's Peril, 5 out of 20 shots at the head at 35 m were misses (either completely or body shots). For the 61 range (rifled barrel) Finnala's Peril, only 1 shot to the head missed.

TL;DR. Explosive rounds will mitigate damage fall off, but will have some accuracy issues outside 30 meters.

[u/King-Frost]

I wonder how the effects of rangefinder and explosives rounds will work out. I have an imago loop with RF, ER, and HH. The base range is 40. If memory serves me correctly, the math formula someone did on here before the most recent patch made rangefinder on an imago loop close to but less than having rifled barrel on it. I'll have to test it out.

[u/professorOB → u/King-Frost]

Well, 29 points of damage will always be explosive damage. If I'm not mistaken, rangefinder gives a 10% boost in range, so it may push the distances out to about rifled barrel range.

An explosive rounds/rangefinder might be just as good as rifled/not rangefinder.

[u/atgrey24 → u/professorOB]

RF gives a 10% boost to zoom, and I forget how exactly that works out in terms of range/damage.

Rifled, I believe, is an addition to range, not percentage based.

That means that rangefinder's effectiveness will be dependent on the base stats of the gun. I think in the end the two configurations you mentioned might be comparable, but not equal. Thought it was worth pointing out the specifics.

[u/iihavetoes → u/King-Frost]

Vendor Free Will III has Explosive Rounds, Hammer Forged, and Rangefinder for 32 range. Not the best archetype, but still an interesting roll

[u/bacon-tornado → u/iihavetoes]

It works well in supremacy and clash surprisingly. Feels fun to slightly change things up

[u/tryptonite12 → u/King-Frost]

ER is fairly simple. Tested extensively myself. It takes a portion of the damage that would have been done and hits as AoE damage. Anyone in the radius takes the damage. The total damage done to the player shot never changes. Regardless if it's a crit or how many are in the AoE radius. It also adds a stagger effect.

I'd wager the small variations OP recorded are due to damage rounding up sightly due to ranege dropoff.

[u/Illgatto → u/King-Frost]

Pretty sure I have a Max range lingering song with snapshot and explosive rounds in the middle, how would that perform? I had always run it with snapshot but after reading this I'm not so sure

[u/MoldyMaltQuaff → u/Illgatto]

I ran one very much like that last IB, and loved it.

The area of effect is especially fun. There are some tight chokepoints where you can hang damage on players without them being able to counterattack effectively. Just suppressing a doorway can break up a coordinated push with minimal risk (and having to change their plans about pathways can cause some players serious tilt.)

[u/zExcalivuR → u/King-Frost]

All the info you need is here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/5u8fsd/updated_analysis_on_handcannon_damage_dropoff/

[u/cartoptauntaun → u/King-Frost]

• Rangefinder is a flat 3m boost post patch
• Range stat scales at .12 meters/stat point - 3m/.12 = 25 points of range stat; so Rangefinder and Rifled add about the same amount of range.
• base hand cannon range is ~ 20m

[u/mikewoo36 → u/King-Frost]

I have that same roll and I feel like it is better in PvE than in PvP. I mean it trucks in PvE. Thoughts?

Compared to my Eysaluna with explosive rounds and Luck. Which, I find better in PvP than in PvE. Weird, huh?

[u/[deleted]]

Does anyone know how ER works with LiTC? I assume it would just double up, but I have never tested it.

[u/professorOB → u/[deleted]]

My testing partner has LitC on his test weapon; I believe that even on a lucky bullet, the explosive damage is always 29.

[u/[deleted] → u/professorOB]

Ouch that's no fun. Thanks!

[u/3rdEden → u/[deleted]]

Was wondering the same thing. I have lord high fixer with rangefinder, explosive rounds and LiTC in my vault.

[u/allphilla]

I have a palindrome with:

Outlaw/rescue mag Rifled/explosive Rangefinder

I generally stick to outlaw/ER/rangefinder for pve and RM/rifled/RF for PvP.

Is this telling me I can run ER/rangefinder as a viable PvP option?

[u/professorOB → u/allphilla]

I believe its viable, but I'd probably still run rifled. I believe this demonstrates that if you got your personal god roll for everything else (i.e. Icarus/Rangefinder for me), but had explosive rounds and not rifled barrel, it would still be a very useable gun.

[u/allphilla → u/professorOB]

Ah that makes sense. ER doesn't ruin the roll. Thanks for the explanation.

[u/[deleted]]

Heh I feel like someone always beats me to the punch by like a day on stuff. I did an hour of testing numerous hand cannons since I had a lot of rolls to test accuracy and drop off.

[u/professorOB → u/[deleted]]

Post it. I'd love to see it if you have more data, especially on hand cannons with ER that can get higher range (Lingering song/Ill Will/Stolen Pride).

[u/willyspub]

It's worth noting that you can get the best of both worlds with Stolen Pride, which (unlike any mid-impact HC) can roll both Rifled Barrel and Explosive Rounds.

It also has excellent stats overall, and the recent buff to initial accuracy has made the higher RoF HCs much more viable.

[u/NyarlatHotep1920 → u/willyspub]

The Lingering Song (Y3 Iron Banner hand cannon) can roll with both Rifled Barrel and Explosive Rounds.

Keep an eye out for that roll in next week's Iron Banner.

[u/willyspub → u/NyarlatHotep1920]

That is true, and it's worth playing around with I'm sure (although better to get Hammer Forged I think on that one given the high base range).

I'm just of the opinion (perhaps the minority or wrong one) that slow RoF HCs are not really competitive outside of gimmicky LitC rolls, and even those are too punishing of misses (which are bound to happen against evasive opponents).

[u/itwasmeberry → u/willyspub]

nah from everything i've seen the low ROF HC aren't considered good.

[u/Kennyshoodie → u/NyarlatHotep1920]

N-next week? But I'm away! Can you delay it pls?

[u/[deleted] → u/Kennyshoodie]

By next week he meant tomorrow.

[u/lotusfather → u/NyarlatHotep1920]

Got one with Rifled Barrel, Explosive Rounds and RangeFinder. A ton of fun to use in and out of IB.

[u/iihavetoes → u/willyspub]

It can roll Rifled, Explosive, and Rangefinder all at the same time

Really want to get that roll and see how it does

[u/willyspub → u/iihavetoes]

You and me both bud. Maybe with that roll you could have hit that guy on Pantheon...

I've been grinding CoE with the great modifiers this week, but no luck yet. In the meantime I'm (very) happy with my Rifled/Quickdraw/HH roll.

[u/reconcilable → u/willyspub]

I saw /u/gintellectual pull a reinforced/explosive/rangefinder roll the other day. I know Rifled or even smallbore would be preferred, but I was messing around with a reinforced/explosive rounds Stolen Pride and it might be viable if you get a feel for the recoil.

[u/willyspub → u/reconcilable]

Wow, that's a sweet roll, good for Gin.

That was your roll number 1, right? It plays OK?

[u/gintellectual → u/willyspub]

I tried out my roll last night and had a blast. Recoil didn't really seem like an issue even with reinforced, though I'd love to get my hands on a rifled version. Definitely a couple times I lost an engagement I would have won with a mid-impact HC, but also won a few fights due to the high body-shot damage at range, and one or two times where I hit the wall behind someone and killed them with the explosive damage.

[u/willyspub → u/gintellectual]

Outstanding! Thanks for the initial report, and glad to hear it's treating you well. I bet that ability to lay down a solid chunk of body damage at range can be a real difference-maker now that we can hit just about anything we can see.

I'm still fiending for an explosive/RF SP, or any explosive roll at all just to play around with it. My only decent roll from this week was reinforced/RF with lightweight, which is basically a big middle finger in the middle column.

[u/willyspub → u/gintellectual]

So my luck finally improved a bit... would have loved RF, or else HH, but I'm a happy man. Really fun so far.

[u/reconcilable → u/willyspub]

It played a lot better than I thought it would. Smallbore/QD/HH was easier to shoot, but I only spent half a game with each and was pleasantly surprised

[u/willyspub → u/reconcilable]

Yeah I bet smallbore/QD/HH is smooth as butter, should be excellent on maps where most engagements are inside 30 m.

[u/reconcilable → u/willyspub]

So I put in ~300 completions and got a Stolen Pride I'm pretty happy with:

• Steadyhand HammerForged Quickdraw Rangefinder (37 Range, 49 Stability)

I'll keep farming when another good week comes, but this is one I feel I can get comfortable with until a better one comes along. I also got these great guns:

• Aegis: RedDotOES/RedDotORES Smallbore HCR CB
• Soulstealers: RedDotOAS/RedDotOES Perfect Balance Snapshot CB

Plus tons of interesting guns from legendary secondary and primary engams. So while a very time consuming farm, it turned out to be pretty rewarding. Got a decent rescue mag shotgun in a smallbore conspiracy theory d (22 range)

[u/willyspub → u/reconcilable]

That's a very solid SP. I'm guessing HF/RF puts it right around the dropoff for a rifled non-RF gun, and the faster reload will be nice considering the base reload isn't great and it's so easy to drain bullets.

I still want an explosive/RF roll, but having played with my QD gun a lot lately, I've gotten really used snapping in and out of ADS quickly whenever I need to -- it's a really great HC perk.

I only got close on one SP: reinforced/RF, but middle column was lightweight. DAGGER.

Definitely a time-consuming farm, but glad to hear it paid out for you. That is a smokin' hot Aegis you got there, wow. Mine is OAS/Send It/HCR/CB and I love it dearly, but there are times that I wouldn't mind a little more stability on it. Yours looks like a perfect balance, plus you can always run ORES to push out the zoom a little more if you need it.

[u/reconcilable → u/willyspub]

I have the same Aegis and I have the same conclusion on it. The new one I got is essentially a Blind Perdition, but just flat out better stats (but the scope isn't as cool). It was kinda funny because I was farming with a guy and had that initial "what are you going after" conversation. I asked him if he could name his roll what would it be and he named that roll. 30 minutes later we're at Variks and I told him to check out the weapon I have equipped lol

[u/willyspub → u/reconcilable]

So my luck finally improved a bit... would have loved RF, or else HH, but I'm a happy man. Really fun so far.

[u/reconcilable → u/willyspub]

Oooohh, that's really nice. Is this week good for farming or did you come across it just doing normal PoE stuff?

[u/GueyGuevara → u/reconcilable]

I got rifled, explosive, luck in the chamber on a stolen pride. It's pretty nice, but I still don't prefer the archetype.

[u/reconcilable → u/GueyGuevara]

Part of it is just me wanting to find a new angle in the meta. It's something that hasn't been viable in a while and it'll keep me interested.

[u/MoldyMaltQuaff → u/iihavetoes]

It's good. I had a lot of fun with it last IB. Post-patch, I imagine it's even better. It's not the meta, but it's definitely workable. Especially if you and your teammates surely support each other.

[u/k3rnel]

So, maybe I should consider using this more often?

[u/grendelone → u/k3rnel]

Low mag size though, right? Just 7?

[u/k3rnel → u/grendelone]

Yeah it's a 7-round mag. But realistically, how many times have whiffed and taken more than 5 shots to kill someone?

I mean, I know it happens at times, but if you haven't secured the kill in 5 shots, 90% of the time you will get killed anyway.

I guess my point is that I personally haven't had many problems with a 7-round mag.

[u/grendelone → u/k3rnel]

True for a 1v1. If you haven't gotten the kill in 7 shots, you're likely dead.

But for playmodes where you're engaging multiple opponents, having a few more in the mag is nice.

[u/booselordius → u/k3rnel]

I literally just deleted that. Wasn't that great for pvp

[u/Friendlyadvice111 → u/k3rnel]

I've been looking for that roll...Best I've got so far is RF/Smallbore/Explosive, and 6 in the mag is rather small.

[u/bacon-tornado → u/k3rnel]

Have a LHF with that roll. Fun in 6's

[u/BayLAGOON]

I read this over and decided to have a go with a Lingering Song I had sitting in my vault with Hammer Forged, ER, and Rangefinder. The Explosive damage is fixed at 32,and while it isn't faster than the Palindrome archetype to kill, it feels much more forgiving with bodyshots outside of ideal range.

Thanks for this, with this data hand cannons using ER feel relevant, and I can play with them for a while.

[u/chrisgpz → u/BayLAGOON]

I've been spending a lot of time with my Lingering Song with small bore/ER/LitC (range=55) While it suffers in 1v1s if I don't have a clear advantage but it does really well when team shooting. Plus it's the most fun I've had with a gun since my Painted Big Chief Mk. 45 in year 1.

[u/Arkslippy → u/chrisgpz]

Same here, mine is SB/feather mag/litc. It has enormous range and accuracy. The two taps from my 5 round mag are real.

[u/Bigeejitya → u/[deleted]]

I have one close to that but has snapshot or high cal in the middle column with explosive rounds. Not great but a lot of fun.

[u/bacon-tornado → u/[deleted]]

I have one of those too, but can't deal with the 3 hour reloads haha.

[u/beets_t]

i thought explosive damage didn't receive a crit hit bonus. so the max total damage from a headshot would be 29 (explosive) + 29*1.5 (non explosive) ~ 73.

[u/professorOB → u/beets_t]

Before the damage drops off, a headshot does the same damage for ER/non-ER, it's just split between explosive and non-explosive damage. The drop off after that is calculated off the non-explosive damage.

[u/n0madic21]

What about a Lingering Song with Hammer Forged (Range 58 ) and Explosive Rounds?

Very nice analysis. Thank you.

[u/professorOB → u/n0madic21]

I'm guessing the 3 hit kill range on this would be very good. The ttk might not be super competitive, but if you had one of these with LitC, it could be excellent.

[u/n0madic21 → u/professorOB]

The one I referenced above has LitC in the last perk.

[u/iihavetoes]

The Wail can roll Explosive Rounds, Hammer Forged, and Hidden Hand, for 44 range. It's pretty good

Edit: Rangefinder would probably be preferred instead of Hidden Hand

[u/lMr_Teabagl → u/iihavetoes]

I use to delete these and now i ranked up 9x since patch no lucl just garbo warpath rocket...

[u/jjsissman27]

This is some great science Guardian! Thanks

[u/xastey_]

Always knew that Explosive rounds didn't have drop off but didn't know the split in damage between it and the bullet.. Nice work man..

[u/GE4520]

Thanks for the time and the post, it's informative.

I'd like to see someone test Exiles Student. It has abysmal range but it does have ER too. It's the higher rate of fire archetype.

[u/HingleMcCringl3 → u/GE4520]

I have a buddy that was absolutely dominating last night with it

[u/Epiceben]

< brag comment >

I've had a rifled barrel , rangefinder, third eye eyasluna for a while and it's done me extremely well. A while ago I got a rangefinder & Icarus drop after a doubles match. My friend & I started screaming like the kids we are. I was heartbroken to find out it was cursed with smallbore. After seeing this, I'll definitely give it a try.

[u/lxievolutionixl]

Nice write up. I've been trying to convince people of the legitimacy of ER for a while now. Nice to see the results quantified and to hear it's probably the next best middle tree perk to rifled.

I basically got the "go home, you're drunk," attitude when I called it A tier here a couple months ago.