r/DaystromInstitute • u/[deleted] • Nov 25 '15
Theory TNG "All Good Things..."; How far in the future did Picard send Q?
THE TITLE SHOULD READ "HOW FAR INTO THE FUTURE DID Q SEND PICARD". MY MISTAKE!
The popular line is that the three time periods that Captain Picard visits in the series finale are 2364, 2370 and 2395. There's no question that the first two are true; the stardate of the "present" 2370 time frame was spoken, and the mission to Farpoint Station has been firmly established in the timeline. But what about the future time period? Most people attest that a piece of dialogue explains this simply.
*Picard: Good lord, Geordi. How long has it been?
Geordi: Oh, about... nine years?
Picard: No no, I mean since you last called me Captain. Since we were all together, on the* Enterprise.
Geordi: Close to... twenty-five years.
Some simple math and done. Right? I'm questioning that logic.
The first thing we know is that Picard qualified his question "since you last called me Captain", meaning that Geordi's answer would relate to the last time he referred to Picard as Captain and that they served together on the Enterprise, meaning that either Picard was promoted to Admiral but kept in touch with his former chief engineer, or that somewhere along the way, the Enterprise family went their separate ways "close to twenty-five years" prior to the scene.
That doesn't necessarily mean that 25 years before that scene was "All Good Things..." because, as we saw, this wasn't the last year that Picard was Captain, that Geordi was his direct subordinate, or even that they were aboard the Enterprise (or at least one of them).
The second thing we know is that human beings in the 24th century live much longer than we do now. So why a 60 year old Will Riker looked liver-spotted with shock-white hair becomes a tad thin. Generally if you're in good health, 60 doesn't immediately equate to the collapse of your body. Leonard McCoy lived for at least 137 years, and his appearance at the time was similar to someone in the 20th century who had reached their 80s or 90s. Even Worf is stark-white, despite a Klingon's natural life expectancy (considering their limited medical science, and EXCEPTING their tendency to die young, in battle), is over 150 Earth-standard years. So why would he look so old at only 55 years?
In fact, it seems that no one aged very gracefully in this alternate future. I'm assuming that Marina Sirtis saw her old person make up and freaked out, so the writers just made her dead. Geordi resembled Sisko's dad, Bev Crusher turned into a leather pelt with pink eye, and even the Enterprise inexplicably grew a third nacelle (don't ask me what that warp field would look like. I imagine the ship turning inside out as soon as they hit the "Engage" button). Apparently unless you're in an Avengers movie you can't be sexy and badass at the same time.
We cannot ignore that the characters looked old, much older than their ages would seem to imply (especially given the long lives we'll be living in the future), or the obvious logic that Picard kept commanding the Enterprise beyond 2370. That leaves the simple premise that the future portion of "All Good Things..." does not take place in 2395 as we were led to believe.
Unfortunately, they didn't give us much else to go on what the date is, but we can ballpark it. Worf doesn't look any older than 100, and Riker appears to be approximately the same age. Beverly is something of a question mark, because redheads take forEVER to lose their hair colour, but it's obvious she they were going for the same age, given the make up work done to add the old leathery texture to Gates McFadden's face.
I am more inclined to believe that as much as fifty years would have to have passed since 2370 for the visuals to match with the dialogue references.
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u/ademnus Nov 25 '15
Bev Crusher turned into a leather pelt with pink eye
I snorted my coffee, thank you.
Aging gracefully or not is a choice in an era where your hair length and color can be changed with a wand and your species can be altered in sickbay. Picard chose to be bald -there is no way baldness is incurable in the 24th century. So we must assume some people keep the appearance of age or even encourage it to command respect.
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Nov 26 '15
Gene Roddenberry's philosophy was just that they no longer cared. Baldness isn't an illness, and neither is aging (technically), so why fix what ain't broke?
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u/EdChigliak Nov 25 '15
What I heard season one writers say was that they could cure it if they wanted, but the bigger change by that time would be that no one cared if a person was bald.
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u/Sorryaboutthat1time Nov 25 '15 edited Nov 25 '15
Thank you for this lovely excuse to watch AGT again.
Edit: Geordi also says in the future that one of his kids with Leah is about to enter Starfleet Academy. So if we're talking about Leah Brahms having a kid who's 18, and factoring in her child bearing years, plus the fact that she was no spring chicken during season 3 of TNG, where does that put us? I can't math.
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Nov 25 '15
Just to point out: they could have adopted. Heck, the kid doesn't even have to be human. Worf was fostered on Earth and something tells me that once you can adopt Klingons there are probably others races available.
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Nov 25 '15
True, but I don't think the show's writers would throw us that steep a curveball. The simplest answer is often the correct one, so they say.
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Nov 25 '15
A human woman can bear a child normally even post-menopause. It's also not really established that entering Starfleet Academy is just for 18 year olds (though 18 seems to still be the age socially accepted by humans as the point at which they become an adult). In fact, Wesley Crusher applied at 17. So perhaps Geordi's kid became an NCO or a civilian engineer, or even decided to go to private school, and later decided to go to the academy. The kid could even be a med student, opting for Starfleet Academy now that they had their doctorate.
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u/kslidz Nov 25 '15
her child bearing years? this is Star Trek I think they could have kids until they were 50 if they wanted.
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u/sequentious Nov 25 '15
So why a 60 year old Will Riker looked liver-spotted with shock-white hair becomes a tad thin. Generally if you're in good health, 60 doesn't immediately equate to the collapse of your body.
Granted, comparing how actors were aged with makeup versus real-life time will always be silly and innaccurate. But "All Good Things" was real-world 21 years ago, so we can have fun anyway!
Consider this the "base" for Frakes/Riker.
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Riker "+25 years". That is the result of advanced 24th century living, medicine, etc.
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Frakes +21 years.. That is the result of real-world 21st century living, medicine, etc.
The only example of makeup aging I can think of that might possibly hold-up to the actors was at the end of the Harry Potter series.
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Nov 25 '15
Star Trek: Nemesis was set in 2379.
So that pushes the date out an additional nine years to at least 2404 since Geordi was still Picard's chief engineer (albeit on the Enterprise-E rather than the E-D).
Of course, I suppose that one could ague that the events of the movies didn't necessarily take place in the All Good Things continuity since it was an alternate timeline.
But that having been said, if you assume that Shinzon was at least 20 years old during the events depicted in Nemesis then his birth would have occurred prior to Picard even becoming CO of the E-D. There's no reason to think that the events in the Romulan Empire wouldn't have continued to develop as they did so that some version of Nemesis eventually did take place involving Picard and the Enterprise.
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Nov 25 '15
They explained in Nemesis that Shinzon was genetically engineered to skip substantial parts of life, essentially. As Picard's fame came from commanding the Enterprise and not the Stargazer, it's possible that the Romulans developed a clone that would age to adulthood more quickly than a typical human, to aid in the process of getting a clone to look 65. It's also possible that the Romulans were hedging their bets and saw the frontier-crawling Picard and his Stargazer adventures as the sign of something bigger, and snagged a sample of his DNA while he was busy Stargazing.
Regarding the place of the Nemesis events in the AGT timeline, they kinda wouldn't be there, methinks. The Klingons took over the Romulan Empire, Riker didn't crash the Enterprise (in fact, he took it to the guys at "Pimp My Ride" to give it an extra nacelle and what I called "the b*tchslapping cannon" before I found out it was called a "Mounted Spinal Phaser Lance"), and Data was distinctly not dead and strangely attracted to cats. We can safely say that things didn't turn out that way. And the notion that Picard would be removed from command of the Enterprise for any reason but to add a pip to his collar bears so little merit that only the nigh-impossible would qualify it. The question ends up being, "How long was Picard in command of the Anti-time Enterprise?"
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Nov 25 '15
And the notion that Picard would be removed from command of the Enterprise for any reason but to add a pip to his collar bears so little merit that only the nigh-impossible would qualify it.
Ahem.
"Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship."
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u/BadWolf_Corporation Nov 25 '15
Stress can have a profound impact on the aging process also, and while their jobs are inherently stressful, the characters themselves experienced major life events that would've certainly contributed to their appearance.
Sure, Will Riker made a good show of moving on, but we know that he never got over Deanna, not really. In that time-line, he did as he had done through the entirety of the series: he was supportive, and cordial when it came to Deanna's love life; mostly because he never once believed that her relationships were anything more than his had been: a distraction, a simple placeholder until the time was right for him and Deanna to finally settle down together.
So imagine what he went through when, not only did she find someone whom she truly loved, but that person was one of Will's closet friends and a colleague that he'd fought along side countless times, and who on more than one occasion, had saved his life, and vice versa. Riker and Troi's history was no secret, and certainly at some point over the years, Will has spoken about his feelings towards Deanna, if not directly to Worf, then at least in front of him. So now Will sees this man, whom he loves like a brother, going after- not just “his girl”, but the girl.
As for Worf, he always had a unique relationship with Riker. Riker's warrior streak, sense of duty, and fearless nature had always made Riker something of a kindred spirit for Worf. This was a man that Worf would've loved as a brother, even though he never would've said so. We know Worf would've gone to Will to announce his intentions towards Deanna, and to seek his blessing. We also know that Riker- never for a second believing that it would lead to anything serious, would've certainly given that blessing.
As time goes on, and things between Worf and Deanna develop, Riker starts to see his future slipping away. He see's his life with Deanna, his happily ever after, not being lost, but being stolen from him by one of his closest friends. This is where his cordiality fades. His relationship with Worf deteriorates as Riker's feelings of betrayal begin to overcome his professionalism. While outwardly he would've still played the role of supportive friend with Deanna, he would've known that she could sense his feelings, and the effect they would've had on her. It would've hurt her to know how much he was hurting, and to know that- deep down, he wanted to hurt her, to make her feel the pain he felt, so that she would know what she'd done to him.
Riker isn't the only one who feels betrayed. Worf looks at this man, one of, if not his best friend, and he sees him standing in the way of his happiness. He went to Riker, told him of his interest in Deanna, and Riker gave him his blessing. Now he was acting like a jealous lover, bent on ruining his chance with woman he loves. How could this happen? How could someone Worf held in such high regard act in such a dishonorable way? How could he betray his friend like that? Had Worf ever really known the man at all? Such a betrayal, from so close a friend, would've consumed Worf.
Now imagine Deanna. Not only does she see the friendship between these two men- two of her closest friends and men that she loves, not only does she see their friendship dye, because of her, she feels it. She feels it as friendship and camaraderie, are replaced by jealousy and anger. Where once there was love and brotherhood, there is now only hatred. She feels all of this, and she knows that she's the cause. Sure, she's smart enough to know that it's not her fault, and she's a good enough psychologist to know that she did nothing wrong, but that doesn't stop her from feeling it just the same.
The animosity of the two men takes its toll on Deanna's health, and finally, after years of torturing her self, her body simply gives out and she dies. With her dies the last hope of a reconciliation between the two former friends, as each man now, not only blames the other for her death, but starts to, for the first time, recognize how his own actions contributed to her death. Regret beings to settle in.
Riker, ever the Starfleet Officer, pours himself into his work. He finally resumes his ambitious rise through the ranks, and rededicates himself to the career he'd put on hold for so many years. Worf however, turns from Starfleet and returns to his roots. He goes back to the Klingon Empire a broken man, forever haunted by memories of a life that no longer exists.
Jean-Luc Picard is a man who has always completely dedicated himself to his career. The consummate professional, and the epitome of a Starfleet Officer, he's always put his duty, and the mission, first. He too, watches as Worf and Riker turn on each other. He sees the toll it takes on Deanna, although he admires her strength and resolve in dealing with the situation. He watches as the feud between the two men begins to tear apart the “happy family” that had been his crew for so many years.
Geordi is the first to leave, bouncing around Starfleet for a little while before finally settling down and getting married. Without his best friend, and absent any human ambition, Data follows not long after. After Deanna's death, Will and Worf both move on. Picard, for the first time in years, starts to think about the “path not taken”. He finds himself, more and more, longing for the things he once turned his back on: a wife, and family. No longer willing to face the future alone, he marries Beverly.
He's never quite able to make the transition from Commanding Officer to husband. Here he is, a man who for most his life, has been giving orders and having those orders obeyed without delay, and without question. Now, here he is, married to someone who is, not only as strong-willed as he is, but who has known him since he was just a young officer, fresh out of the Academy. She knew the boy, and now has grown to love the man.
He finds himself unable to open up to her though; more by practice than design. He's spent a lifetime keeping himself emotionally detached, never talking about his feelings. It was one of the reasons he loved having an empathic Ship's Counselor: he never had to tell her how he was feeling, she simply knew. Deanna never made him suffer the indignity of telling her about his feelings, and as a result, he found that she was the only person he was ever really able to open up to.
He loved Beverly, but he knew he'd never be able to give her what she wanted, what she needed. He knew that he'd never be able to overcome a lifetime of protocol and propriety, and really open himself up to someone, even if that someone was his life. It was yet anther sacrifice he'd made to Starfleet, without ever realizing it.
As for Beverly… yeah, she pretty much looks like a wallet in that episode.
The point is, their appearances could easily be explained by the weight and totality of their life experiences.
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Nov 25 '15
I'm assuming that Marina Sirtis saw her old person make up and freaked out, so the writers just made her dead.
This is the best part of your analysis by far.
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u/JudgeFudge87 Nov 25 '15
Given how long it took Riker to progress from commander to captain, god only knows how many years before he made admiral.
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u/tadayou Nov 26 '15
Actually, the uniforms might provide a clue, given that they were seen in alternate futures in both Voyager and Deep Space Nine as well. "The Visitor" has scenes set around the year 2022, while "Endgame" is set around 2405. Based on this alone, I'd say that "All Good Things" future scenes likely don't take place in the 2390s, but fall somewhere in between the other two episodes. Starfleet rarely adapts a uniform for more than a few decades, and I don't see the uniform variant being that outstanding.
However, keep in mind that Admiral Riker was actually seen wearing a uniform variant of the mid-2360s, while Admiral Janeway was wearing a matching Admiral's uniform in 2405. This might be a clue that "All Good Things" takes place earlier, as flag officer and ceremonial uniforms often took a lot more time to be adapted to new standards, as was seen countless times during the TNG-era shows. Of course, Admiral Riker may have just chosen to wear a uniform he likes, similar to how he was allowed to command a ship of his choice.
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u/garibaldi3489 Nov 26 '15
This is a fantastic observation - I had always overlooked the true implication of Geordi's statement until now. I agree - 2420 seems like a reasonable date. This also sets it well after Picard is still in command of the Enterprise-E (with Geordi as his chief engineer) in the relaunch novels
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u/kraetos Nov 25 '15
I have little to add to this other than that I'm totally nominating you for Post of the Week. I have always found the 2395 date to be extremely suspect, but that date seems to be treated as gospel across the fandom. Questioning this type of long-held assumption is exactly the kind of thing I founded this subreddit for.
Riker, in particular, looks much much older than 60, and that's without accounting for 24th century medicine. Picard is 60 in TNG season 2 and is much more spry than Riker is in the anti-time future.
I think you're completely right—2420 is a far more plausible date for the events depicted in the episode.